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Ep 89: Happy Pioneer Day

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·51m 36s·analyzed·Jul 25, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Podcast covers Stern customer service frustrations, Comic-Con game rumors, and secondary market pricing collapse.

Summary

Scott Larson and an unnamed co-host discuss personal pinball ownership frustrations (particularly a defective Rush side scoop and customer service delays from Stern), celebrate an upcoming birthday and Pioneer Day holiday, address rumors about unannounced Stern games at Comic-Con (Venom speculation involving Ozzy Osbourne and Todd McFarlane), and analyze declining secondary market pricing across multiple premium pinball titles amid economic inflation. They also discuss American Pinball's lost Sonic license and licensing strategy differences between manufacturers.

Key Claims

  • Stern revealed they will announce new games in Q3 (August-September), not at Comic-Con

    high confidence · Scott Larson stated Stern has said they wouldn't reveal until third quarter, which was basically August to September, and distributors confirmed nothing is scheduled until September

  • Ozzy Osbourne and Todd McFarlane's presence at Stern's Comic-Con booth suggests an unannounced comic book-related game

    medium confidence · Co-host speculated on why these figures would be at Stern booth, suggesting Venom or Spawn connection; notes Todd McFarlane's comic art legacy and Spawn creation

  • Venom was rumored to release in April but has been delayed

    medium confidence · Co-host stated 'I honestly think that Venom was supposed to be out in April' and notes Stern typically hits March-May window for releases

  • Jersey Jack Pinball had to flip the release order of Toy Story and Wonka due to licensing restrictions

    high confidence · Scott Larson referenced interview with Jack Guarnieri of Jersey Jack on Saturday Morning Spectacular podcast, stating original order was Pirates, Toy Story, Guns N' Roses, then Wonka

  • Toy Story (JJP) is priced at $12,000, representing a significant increase from Guns N' Roses at $9,500

    high confidence · Co-host stated 'Guns N' Roses was ninety-five hundred. Then they bumped it a thousand, but then to bump it again to twelve thousand?' and Scott observed it's not moving as fast as anticipated due to price

  • Secondary market prices for premium pinball machines have dropped significantly (approximately $1,000+ in many cases)

    high confidence · Scott cited Pinside listings showing Kiss LE at $16,500, Attack from Mars LE at $15,000, Toy Story 4 at $11,300, Guns N' Roses at $9,900, Deadpool Premium at $8,700, Rush Premium at $8,200

  • American Pinball does not have the Sonic license

    high confidence · Co-host referenced Saturday Morning Spectacular interview with David Fix and Ryan McQuaid of American Pinball confirming they don't have Sonic license, and notes Stern doesn't have it either

Notable Quotes

  • “You will just have to wait for the opto set to arrive and it can be replaced with a new suit.”

    Stern customer support (quoted by Scott Larson) @ mid-episode — Illustrates customer service frustration — Scott perceives the phrasing 'you will just have to wait' as lacking empathy or transparency after 6 months of non-functional equipment on a $12,000+ purchase

  • “It's really how anything happens to support the customer to make them feel like they're a valued asset, right?”

    Scott Larson @ mid-episode — Core thesis connecting customer service failures across industries (restaurant/Stern) to consumer sentiment and brand loyalty

  • “If Venom had been released by now, they would be touting it at San Diego Comic-Con. That's the problem.”

    Co-host @ mid-episode — Core reasoning for speculation that an unannounced game is in development, inferred from presence of Ozzy Osbourne and Todd McFarlane at Stern booth

  • “This is the FOMO—the fear of missing out. And if there's that one game that is three years down the pipeline that you've been looking for, you're going to tunnel vision onto that and not buy the other ones.”

    Scott Larson @ mid-episode — Industry business strategy explanation for why manufacturers don't pre-announce games far in advance

  • “We were in crazy town where you would buy a pin and you could immediately sell it for two thousand more if you could get it at sticker.”

    Co-host @ late-episode — Characterizes the previous speculative bubble market for new pinball releases before 2023 correction

  • “I think they blew through the ceiling. And I think they're going to be selling less than they wanted to.”

    Co-host — Assessment that Toy Story's $12,000 price point exceeded market tolerance, resulting in slower sales velocity

  • “He chose Sonic because Sega was basically free to let me do whatever I wanted as long as it was a fan project.”

    Scott Larson (quoting Sonic Spinball designer) @ late-episode — Explains licensing flexibility for homebrew vs. commercial production, relevant to American Pinball Sonic situation

Entities

Scott LarsonpersonFlippin' Out PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyJohn BorgpersonZachpersonGregpersonTom Graffperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern Rush has non-functional side scoop since delivery in January; opto sensor appears defective; customer attempted troubleshooting with drill modification, consulted designer John Borg, worked with distributor for warranty resolution

    high · Scott Larson detailed multi-month troubleshooting process including opto testing, micro switch inspection, and confirmed Stern acknowledgment of defective opto requiring replacement

  • ?

    customer_service_signal: Stern customer support perceived as unresponsive and lacking transparency; email communication delayed, customer had to follow up multiple times over week; tone interpreted as dismissive ('you will just have to wait') despite $12,000+ purchase price

    high · Scott Larson cited specific email language and contrasted it with ideal service communication; acknowledged potential for projection but expressed consumer perspective on adequacy of support

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball secondary market showing significant price drops ($1,000+ across multiple titles) from previous highs; listings stalling on marketplace (e.g., Shadow at $6,900 sitting for months, Iron Maiden at $14,500 not moving)

    high · Scott cited Pinside listings: Kiss LE $16,500, Toy Story 4 $11,300, Guns N' Roses $9,900 (down from $10,400 LE), Deadpool Premium $8,700, Rush Premium $8,200; noted machines 'aren't selling what they're supposed to be selling for'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community recognizing transition from speculative bubble ('we were in crazy town') to realistic pricing; attributed to inflation and economic pressure on consumers

    high · Co-host noted people were buying pins at sticker and immediately flipping for $2,000 profit; now seeing normalization. Scott attributed to 'over nine-percent inflation reported in July' and market stabilization expected 'hardest at beginning of year'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.155

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast this is episode 89 with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott let's talk about our awesome sponsor and uh me some of the shenanigans we have going on all right well uh flipping out pinball if you are looking for that game i know that Zach was posting a lot of sales and trying to move some inventory that he had. So check out, if you have that game that's on your wish list, go ahead and check it out. And if you have a game that you're thinking, well, an older game that is your grail pin, definitely reach out to them. They'll be able to figure out something.
0:44
Definitely. Always been good to us. Oh, yeah. And if you catch the tail end of the pinball show, he's giving some exclusive offers through the podcast that you can't get anywhere else go listen to his podcast and get that uh get those exclusive offers definitely so what has been going on with you scott uh okay so i'm still a little frustrated with rush um the bottom line is when i got rush the side scoop never worked okay and yeah i probably should have been a little more progressive about immediately getting on it and saying, Hey, um, you know, Hey, it's this, I need some help, but it busy time in life. And I, so I just kind of stopped playing it for a couple of months. Um, then I started getting into it and saying, okay, so what's the issue. So trying to figure out what the issue is, because what would happen is go into the side scoop and then it wouldn't eject. And then it would go through a ball search and immediately spit out the standard scoop, right? Yeah. So, uh, I got the, I got the scoop replacement and I was following through step-by-step to say, okay, so replace these. And so, you know, uh, John Borg has a great, uh, step-by-step on it. And I get to the point where he's like, okay, so you put back on the side scoop and you throw a ball in and it shows the, he showed how he was testing it. and I'm looking at mine. I'm like, mine doesn't look like that. Mine shows two balls, but one of the balls is, it says it's, it's already in there and it's not the first ball. It's the second ball. Okay. So, um, that likely is an opto, um, went back and forth, uh, with trying to figure out what's going on. I even messaged John and John said, well, okay. So it could be the opto. It sounds like it's the opto. So what I did is I actually took a drill and I drilled the side opening up bigger. Okay. So there would be no interference with the opto, right? Yeah. And filed it down, put it back on, still nothing. So then I contacted Zach and thankfully, I mean, Zach as a distributor, they're really good about helping out. and he sent me to Greg and talked back and forth with Greg and he's like, yeah, it sounds like it. So he sent in a request. Well, I didn't really hear anything. And so I'm sitting here thinking, well, it's been a week and just messages like, hey, just wondering, is there anything else I can do? And this is where I think people get a little frustrated with customer support. because the bottom line is, yeah, I, it is a, it is a game that I'm not, it's not like a car that I'm driving every day, but I did spend over $12,000 for this game. Yeah, definitely. And so I, uh, I emailed Stern and Stern sent back and said, yeah, we're, uh, we did get the request. And so I was trying to ask back and forth. And and so I was like, OK, so what what more do you need to know? Like, how can I help? Basically, I was trying to be the hey, I'm just trying to help you get all the information you need so you can get back to me.

  • Rush (Stern) has had a non-functional side scoop since January delivery

    high confidence · Scott Larson stated 'when I got Rush, the side scoop never worked' and 'it's never worked. The side scoop has never worked' since January purchase

  • Cactus Canyon (Jersey Jack) has significant distributor inventory that is not selling (only ~20% of allocations sold)

    medium confidence · Co-host stated 'they've only sold twenty percent of that allotment, if that' and 'the standard editions are sitting in stock at distributors'

  • Whitewater received quality-of-life code updates to the most recent chip, including bonus hold feature and new light show

    medium confidence · Scott Larson stated someone had 'done some quality-of-life updates essentially for the chip' and mentioned bonus hold and new countdown light show were additions not in original version

  • “Why in the world would Ozzy be at the Stern booth? Why in the world would Todd McFarlane be at the Stern booth?”

    Co-host @ mid-episode — Core deductive reasoning for unannounced game speculation based on visible evidence at Comic-Con

    • Jersey Jack Pinball
    company
    Jack Guarnieriperson
    American Pinballcompany
    David Fixperson
    Ryan McQuaidperson
    Ozzy Osbourneperson
    Todd McFarlaneperson
    Saturday Morning Spectacularcontent_creator
    Pinsidecompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Triple Draincontent_creator
    The Pinball Showcontent_creator
    Segacompany
  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community speculation about unannounced Stern game at San Diego Comic-Con; Ozzy Osbourne and Todd McFarlane spotted at Stern booth fueling rumors of Venom or comic book-themed title

    medium · Co-host speculated on 'Why in the world would Ozzy be at the Stern booth?' and noted Todd McFarlane's comic art legacy; acknowledged this is inference from visible evidence rather than confirmation

  • ?

    announcement: Stern officially stated Q3 (August-September) announcement timeline for new games, not Comic-Con; distributors confirmed no releases scheduled until September

    high · Scott Larson stated 'Stern has said for a while now that they weren't going to reveal until third quarter' and 'distributors have agreed that the schedule says there's nothing on the line until really September'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: American Pinball confirmed to have lost Sonic license; neither American Pinball nor Stern currently holds license

    high · Co-host cited Saturday Morning Spectacular interview with David Fix and Ryan McQuaid of American Pinball confirming Sonic license is gone, and noted Stern doesn't have it either

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball significantly raised Toy Story price to $12,000 (up from Guns N' Roses at $9,500); business model explanation: high-end boutique strategy accepting lower volume for higher margin (Ferrari/McLaren analogy)

    high · Scott and co-host discussed JJP as 'boutique company' with limited releases to collectors; Scott noted this aligns with business model where 'you know you're not going to be moving as much because of the price tag' but higher margin covers volume loss

  • ?

    product_concern: Jersey Jack Cactus Canyon experiencing significant inventory challenges; distributors report only ~20% of allocated stock sold; machines sitting at distributors waiting on topper availability

    medium · Co-host stated distributors were 'forced to take stock' and 'they've only sold twenty percent of that allotment, if that' which 'hurt you, especially going into a recession'

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack had to reorder release pipeline (flip Toy Story and Wonka) due to licensing restrictions and timing; early announcement would have limited flexibility for similar changes

    high · Scott cited Saturday Morning Spectacular interview where Jack Guarnieri revealed original order was Pirates, Toy Story, Guns N' Roses, Wonka; had to restructure due to licensing, causing 3+ year delay for Toy Story

  • ?

    industry_signal: Manufacturers (Stern, JJP) avoid announcing games far in advance to maintain flexibility (FOMO, licensing changes, reordering). Information only leaks through distributor/insider channels

    high · Scott explained FOMO strategy: 'if there's that one game that is three years down the pipeline that you've been looking for, you're going to tunnel vision onto that and not buy the other ones.' Co-host noted 'the only way something actually gets out is if a distributor or someone with distributor access leaks it'

    • 4:17
    I'm really trying. I'm not a tech guy. I don't work on my machines all the time. I know enough, but not, not a crazy amount. And finally got to it and she's like, okay, so check, check this. And I was like, okay. So I, and then I sent back, so went back and forth a few times and, and they did confirm that they got the, the fix request, uh, from flipping out.
    4:44
    And then I, uh, they said, okay, check these two things. So I sent back, I'm like, okay, I checked it here. It still says that opto is malfunctioning. It seems like the micro switch is fine. I can feel it. I'm like, is there anything else?
    5:03
    So I waited a day. I didn't hear anything. I was like, that's fine. I just wanted to send back. And it's like, hey, just following up. I haven't really played this game. And so I'm really trying to just expedite it as quick as I can. So just let me know. Still didn't hear anything. So I waited two days. It's like, okay, fine. So I sent it off. I'm like, Hey, is there anything else? And I got, it's hard on emails to get tone. Yes, definitely. It's like text messages. It's totally hard. And so this could, could be me projecting. And, and I, it, again, I'm hoping I'm not being, I'm not being unfair. okay but um i got let's see i i i want to i want to read this so you you guys can accept the tone as much as you want you need to say it like a zombie though or like a robot so that way you're not giving an implied tone that isn't there yeah yeah so i yeah i i could do the and so and again i'm I know they probably deal with this stuff all the time. And so I'm really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. But I am only telling you as a consumer, like how would the average consumer view this, right? So I went through our email thread and you did mention the side scoop does not activate when the ball goes in. You also took an opto, took a look at the opto set, but it appears to be sitting correctly. this tells us that the opto set for the side scoop is not working and will need to be replaced affirming what you previously were told by john board since your order has been submitted by your distributor you will just have to wait for the opto set to arrive and it can be replaced with a different suit so the the word that jumped out at me okay is you will just have to wait and again i'm hoping that i'm reading that wrong yeah because it would be like hey we're happy to expedite this we are waiting on parts and we will get that to you as soon as possible yeah when did you get this game when did you get rush um january because i remember we came up was it february carter and i came to your house and play and it wasn't working then like it's been yeah no it's never it's never worked um the side scoop that yeah the side scoop has never worked so and again i'm hoping that i that this is more of a misunderstanding on my part and they're expediting things. Um, but this is, uh, okay. This is going to be like grumpy Scott day, I guess. So, um, let me tell you about another experience I had on Friday. This is, this is not pinball related at all. So if you don't want to hear this story, fast forward five minutes. Okay. So we go out to dinner with some friends who are, uh, you know, they're good friends. They're actually, um, it's one of the surgeons that I go down to Guatemala with. Okay. So we've been good friends for, you know for six years now uh we go to a restaurant and i know i hate going to restaurants on friday nights because it's they're packed they're packed the usually the they're they're too busy the service is usually subpar and it just feels like a stressful experience if i can go to a place that has um reservations then i will because i'm just like i i don't want to i hate going to texas road house. My kids love it. I hate it because you go there, you put your name on the list, you're sitting outside with peanut dust and just everybody just sitting there for like an hour to an hour and a half waiting for a done table to break off. And then you go inside and it's too loud and I don't think the food is that good anyway. But we go there and we put our name on the list and then they're like, it was like 40 minutes. And after like 55 minutes, we're like, people are going in. And I know 40 minutes is an estimate, but people are going in. So I'm like, maybe we should ask and see if there's something going on. And they walked up and they said, oh, yeah, come on. We have your table.
    9:22
    Like that was kind of weird that we had to get up and ask. But took us there. We sat down, gave us the drink menus. And all four of us, none of us drink alcohol. So we were just interested in getting like standard drink. Yeah.
    9:40
    They they ordered drinks, but then are, you know, we got like a soda and two like root beers or, you know, a ginger soda or whatever. One of those things, cream soda.
    9:53
    And then they disappeared and came back maybe like 20 minutes later. And we said, oh, yeah, OK, so we would like some appetizers. and we ordered two appetizers.
    10:08
    And then we also said, well, we also already had orders, so we just told the order and disappeared. Like it was like an hour. Oof. And I'm really not a high-maintenance guy when it comes to restaurant. Like I'm pretty low-key. Sure. But, yeah, okay. No, I'm joking. No, I totally get it. So I'm usually pretty low-key. and then I like like I was out of water which I never like I was there long enough to completely deplete my water glass yeah and so and I'm like I don't know what's going so I go up and I walk up to the bar and I'm like can I get a refill on my water yeah and so they gave me the refill on the water and so I sat down and my wife was drinking a soda and so I picked up her glass and I went up And I said, can I get a refill on this too?
    11:06
    So they got it. And I think they were kind of cluing in like, okay, like this is weird. This is weird, but okay. And so I sat down.
    11:18
    Then she comes out and gives like, she gave the food and we're like, oh, did appetizers? And she's like, oh, they didn't bring those out?
    11:32
    we're like no oh um yeah okay i'll i'll check in and we're like i don't think we want them we just got our entrees yeah she's like okay i'll ask about taking them off i'm like that'd be awesome you should check on that because this is my inner monologue it hadn't gone to external monologue and we looked down and she had never brought us silverware like legitimately never brought a silverware so i like walked back up to the bar and i got silverware from the bar and i sat down and like i mean it was kind of weird like like they had two utensil things so i got those and then we were still waiting and it was literally like 10 minutes later she came back and i was like hey like do we like we don't have utensils um you know and i i was i was getting to kind of annoyed with her and i was like i like i had to get my drinks and she's like look i have a lot of tables in the other room okay so that when i was like i done here i didn say it but i said Can I just talk to your manager Oh so and I was was i was polite i didn raise my voice yeah i didn i didn swear anything i just said can i just talk to your man the manager came out and and i just told it i said well so first off that we waited like 55 minutes and we had to go and ask about uh sitting down and she's like yeah we've had we've had problems with the I'm like, I'm not done. Yeah. Then we sit down, we wait for, uh, we get our drinks after like trying to do stuff. We have to refill our own drinks. We ordered appetizers. We, they, she never followed up on it. She never came back to us. And when I tried to bring up that, Hey, we weren't really having that good of an evening because of the situation she throws in, throws back at us, well, I've got other tables.
    13:44
    I'm like, well, I guess I have other restaurants that I could go to. Now, I will say, thankfully, the manager was very, very apologetic and actually just, we didn't pay for the food. She just comped food.
    13:59
    So this is, the only reason why I'm telling you this is because this is kind of a side example of how customer service is so important. Oh, I agree. And it's not usually the fact that if an adverse thing happens, it's really how anything happens to support the customer to make them feel like they're a valued asset, right? Yes. And so – and again, I'm giving Stern the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to be a flamethrower here. um i i'm hoping i'm just i'm just taking the tone and and projecting my frustration that i've had a game for six months that i haven't been able to play and so we'll find out hopefully the the scoop will be come and it'll be tickety-boo and we'll be fine um i also ordered the like the loop fixes that tom graff recommended um so i i have those two so i'm hoping to get that game up and going and be able to explore it finally. Yeah. Well, it's hard to give a good impression on a game that you can't play.
    15:09
    So anyway, I will wait. I'm sure that when I get the – now, thankfully, Stern has come through in the past. And so it could just be that I'm a little more on top of this because it's a game I really want to play. um but you know i i got my um they got my ramp uh diverter fix for turtles and they also got me the um the pop-up um spinner on led zeppelin and so the and and the led zeppelin um searchlight thing that was malfunctioning online they got me that too so they do come through Oh, definitely. But it is frustrating when you're waiting for more information and it just seems like there's no there's a reason why when you order a Domino's pizza, it has a pizza tracker on there. Yeah. So you can say, oh, it's it's being made. Hey, it's in the oven. Hey, it's out. It's shipping out to you. Hey, it's at your door. But, you know, things like that. Yeah. So I get you. So that's what's that's what's been going on in my pinball world. mine is uh i finally got i think i've got my water white water almost like 96 done uh i had to do some stuff to it after i picked it up um instead of fiddling with the circuit board i just bought a brand new one a new power driver because i it had battery acid damage on it and i just didn't want to deal with it it's it's just better just to to swap it out yeah so i just swapped it out and uh and I put a, the new chip, most recent chip. I did not realize that white waters, uh, bonus hold. So if you hit the disaster drop six times, it gives you a bonus hold. It never did that with the original chip. That was a programming thing. So someone had went through, they did some, uh, quality of life updates essentially for the chip. Uh, it's doing good. It has like a new light show too for the countdown and whatnot. Okay. Um, yeah, it's,
    17:07
    it's, uh, I'm really enjoying that. I'm getting ready to trade out my no fear for a giant mnemonic. I, I don't know what it is about giant mnemonic, but I just really liked that game. I've owned it once before. This is the first game for the second time.
    17:21
    No fears. All right. I, it doesn't, doesn't do anything for me. Um, and so it's, it's fine. Does the glove actually work in that one? Yes. Okay. Um, but yeah, it's, we're recording on pioneer day. So for anyone that doesn't live in Utah, uh, The 24th of July is the day that the pioneers back in the 1800s had first set.
    17:46
    1847. Days of 47. 1847s when they came into the valley and said, this is the place. And so. Technically, he said, this is the right place. Drive on.
    18:00
    And so it's a holiday weekend for us. Tomorrow's actually my birthday. So I'm excited. We're going to go pick up Johnny Mnemonic for my birthday. and hopefully go over Texas Roadhouse, but maybe not. Oh, jeez. You're a fun story.
    18:15
    But we'll be going on that. Yeah, Texas Roadhouse, it's still a holiday tomorrow in Utah, so keep that in mind. But Texas Roadhouse, yeah, it just seems like it – wow, it – I don't know. I don't think it's worth it, all the weight that you have to have.
    18:33
    Maybe. I don't know. We'll see what happens. But I'm excited. But yeah. It could be your favorite place. It's just not mine.
    18:42
    I like the pipe. And it's not like a highbrow. I love McDonald's, so I'm good. We had Comic-Con last week. Yeah. And Venom was announced, right? No. Okay, no. No, it wasn't. Okay, can we talk about these shenanigans for just a second? Okay, you can talk a little bit. I'm not going to dive into the drama, but you can talk about it. Let's not dive into the drama. But what's funny to me is that we get a rumor going and it starts to steamroll regardless of where the source comes from, right? And we can already kind of see the aftermath of like where's the Aussie pin? Where's the Venom pin? And it's like it was said that it was supposed to be this weekend. It's like, well, Stern has said for a while now that they weren't going to reveal until third quarter, right? That was basically August, right? August to September, and even distributors have agreed that the schedule says there's nothing on the line until really September. They don't know what it is, but they know that there's a block. This is not news to anyone because this has been talked about on the pinball show, on Triple Drain. I don't know. It's funny because Stern has went to Comic-Con every year for the last how many years, and they've never revealed anything.
    20:02
    However, I'm going to push back a little bit. Like, I didn't think they were going to announce anything. I didn't think they were going to announce. And then I saw them putting up the banners and it like, why in the world would Ozzy be at the Stern booth? Why in the world would be Todd McFarland be at the Stern booth? And the, the obvious answer is there is a game that's going to be coming out with these two involved. Cause why else would they be at the Stern booth? so i put on my detective hat right because we talked about this a little bit before the show okay i honestly think that venom was supposed to be out in april that's typically right and we're and we are still assuming it's venom we're thinking it's something to do with comic books yeah well obviously has something to do with ozzy osbourne and todd mcfarland because that was the booth that stern was sharing with them sure and and what would be like with todd mcfarland what would be the obvious like what art is he known for for venom well it's it's and spon and but that's in the 90s he was he was huge he had he had a visual style that revolutionized comics yes and so it's it's pretty impressive what he did um but it's definitely comic book related yeah and it was definitely i he uh he left marvel to do spawn on his own uh because he wanted the um the rights to his work that's actually why he left marvel and in in the 90s a lot of major artists did yeah um and so that was uh that was something but it makes sense to say well what's the likely link going to be as venom well and the rumors were is venom was the next one up right that was the rumor that that was the biggest rumor yeah coming up in april april they usually hit the march april may window right so it would make a logical sense if venom had been released by now they would be touting it at san diego comic-con that's that's the problem is like we got talking about licensing with some other people and it's it's been talked about on podcast recently why doesn't stern why doesn't jjp why don't they just release what they have in the pipeline so we know what's coming because a lot of people save money or do it based off of the rumors that they're hearing yeah i i'm gonna push back i i understand why they don't this this is the FOMO, the fear of missing out. And if there's that one game that is three years down the pipeline that you've been looking for, you're going to tunnel vision onto that and not by the other ones. Well, not only that, but like Toy Story is a perfect example. If you listen to the Super Awesome Pinball Show, they just did an interview with Jack Winery of Jersey Jack.
    23:06
    And Wonka was not actually supposed to come out before Toy Story. It was supposed to go Pirates, Toy Story, Guns N' Roses, then Wonka. So Wonka should have came out at the time. We should be just being Wonka now. Think about that, though. Say JJP five years ago comes out at one of the shows and says, hey, we've got Pirates coming out now, Toy Story is up in the pipeline, and then Guns N' Roses after that. Well, this situation is they had to flip the two. They had to flip Wonka and Toy Story because of the restriction on licensing and times.
    23:46
    So how many people would have been ticked to know that Toy Story was coming out? Right. And then got pushed off two years. Yeah. Not even two. It's three plus. And then on top of that, if they came out and announced that they had Toy Story, they would not be able to change their mind. Maybe they would have and said, hey, because do you think there would be even more blowback if they were like, yeah, we're doing Toy Story 1. they'll be out in four years so we're pushing it back but this is this is the case and then they show up with toy story 4 and everyone's like you said it was toy story 1 and like oh we decided to change it gives them no flexibility i think that's what it comes down to they get more flexibility and control with not announcing right i i think though i think once you get to a certain point though you three months out i don't know it just it's weird it's weird that we don't we don't know until a week before we get a teaser trailer. Even distributors don't know. That's what blows my mind, is that the only way something actually gets out is if a distributor or someone with distributor access leaks it. It's not even that. Yeah. There's people inside of Stern that leak the information, but then they point at distributors and say it's their fault. Maybe. Yeah.
    25:01
    So I'm not going to go more in depth than that. Yeah. It is challenging, though, in that you're like investigative journalists. You are relying on people who are willing to do leaks to get information, which is – it's an interesting model. But I also understand, though, if you look at it, how much buzz is there right now for Cactus Canyon?
    25:27
    None. OK. So when did they announce that? October. OK. But they're shipping them out. Okay, sure. At the end of the year. Who's got their LEs? But the problem is there SEs sitting in stock at distributors Okay I get it Are we really waiting on a topper I don know if the topper is really the hold back on this one Well but I think the issue is that people only wanted the complete package and that included the topper on that game
    25:58
    So with the one thing that JJP did right with Toy Story is that they had them available. They announced it. They said place the order. boom two days later you were seeing people who have them in their homes yeah and that was that was really that was the right thing to do the challenge though and it seems like after that initial rush it's been more the rush for toy story yeah it's been a little more of a ghost town um they're not moving as fast as i think people were anticipating and i'm gonna peg that a hundred percent on the twelve thousand dollar price tag no i agree because you're not going to that was a crazy increase gnr was 9500 then they bumped it a thousand but then to bump it again to 12,000 I don't think they found the ceiling. I think they blew through the ceiling.
    27:07
    And I think they're going to be selling less than they wanted to. I want to say yes and no. Okay. Probably less than they want to, but as much as they anticipated. And the reason I say that is in business, if you have a high-end product and you know you're not going to be moving as much because of the price tag, sometimes it's better to move that price tag up because you know that there's still gonna be some demand for it and so moving that price tag up will cover the cost of what it would have been if you sold more at a lesser cost right and legitimately that that could be the best option for uh jjp i mean jjp is they are a they're a boutique company they really are they're they're like um okay the analogy isn't exactly the same but think of like ferrari mclaren um lamborghini they don't do volume they do um they do a limited release on their cars and it goes to a few collectors who are willing to pay the price tag whereas um stern is like ford they are they are selling them uh they're selling them out the door and yeah they're still making money on it but it's not the same amount they're making on each one okay i haven't looked at a bill of materials this is me just looking from the outside yeah but it makes sense it makes sense because it's consistent with the business model i think they're they're content i think it gets them plenty of money to pay for what they've been doing and it helps project propel them enough into the next title It keeps the doors open. Correct. They're not losing money on this. Correct. I think if anyone's really ticked, it's the distributors, especially the ones that were forced to take stock. Right, their allotments. Yeah. Yeah, they had to take allotment, and they've only sold 20% of that allotment, if that.
    29:09
    I think that's where it really hurts you, especially going into a recession. and um because we've seen the market is just it's almost coming to a grinding halt well okay so that's that's really what i'm getting to next um so i'm looking here and this is so this is just pin side just looking at what is available and you see the standard hey buy my kiss le for 16,500 buy my you know my Attack from Mars LE for $15,000 I also see Guns and Roses LE for $9,600 I also see Avengers IQ $9,000 I'm seeing Toy Story 4 $11,300 Guns and Roses $9,900 Deadpool Premium $8,700 rush premium 8200 yep and so the they're dropping we're now they're dropping like they they didn't drop like a little bit they dropped a thousand bucks yeah so that's i we're getting back to where it probably should be well even the secondary market i mean i've been looking at just to kind of get a good idea of the price i mean the lowest ends at 3600 that's pretty close to the average of what they're asking and where you've got three that are you know two at 5000 and there's no one sniffing i mean i've been looking at shadows because i've wanted a shadow for a while and there's a shadow on there that's that's asking like 6900 which is what a that's a pro for a stern yeah uh average is supposedly mid four thousands and granted this guy he has a he has a decent it's a nice shadow but for 6900 it's just not moving it's still there sorry it's been setting it's been reposted multiple times um i mean it's been sitting for months okay there's also a rush le for 10 400 that's a 10 that's a 1000 loss on that guns and roses 9600 or best offer granted I'm not saying that we're going to be buying these up for like pennies on the dollar no no no but I think what it's saying is that you're getting it for what is probably a more realistic price given the I guess given what you can get a new one for yes We were in crazy town where you would buy a pin and you could immediately sell it for $2,000 more if you could get it at sticker.
    31:54
    Yeah. I mean, that's the crazy thing. The one that seems still not to be dropping is, well, there's an Iron Maiden Legacy of the Beast Premium LE. That would be an interesting mod.
    32:18
    $14,500? A premium for $14,500? Oh, okay. Just because they're out of it doesn't mean it's selling. Oh, I know, but he's got – wow.
    32:30
    He has the sarcophagus ball lock, but that's not the good one. It's not the Steve Govea sarcophagus ball lock. Yeah, that guy's crazy. He's not going to get that. But I think the point of the matter is machines just aren't selling what they're supposed to be selling for. Or new in box, and then the secondary market is coming down pretty fast. Well, I think what's happening is people are getting whiplash from an over 9% inflation that was reported in July. Yeah. And depending on your market and stuff too. Right. Look at people that do food. Their costs have gone up at least 90%. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's just getting out of control. and i just we're i think we see the hardest of this starting at the beginning of the year um but that's just me i'm not here to give you market advice and whatnot no well i'm not but it is it is interesting seeing what the what the trend is going to be yes yeah um yeah oh my goodness but i want to go back to um i want to go talk back to licensing for a minute because it's funny because we're talking about rumors we're talking about licensing and um super awesome had done a interview with david fix and ryan mcquade of american pinball and then they did one with jack quinary of jjp and it's funny because we talk about these rumors and whatnot right and didn't they say that they don't have the american pinball doesn't have the sonic license yeah and that's the funny part is they talk about that and then they say well stern doesn't have either so whoever makes this game it better be amazing because ryan mcquade's was amazing and i'm like it's just kind of goofy to like out another pinball company and say that like the license is gone and i know that spooky did this with uh godzilla yeah and but then it's there yeah and then like the very next episode jack when area goes off about jaws they never officially state it but like you've got like francie starts playing the jaws theme in the background and they're talking about it right but it's just it's funny because i want to address these two things really quick um actually how how was sonic spinball when you played it scott okay i think solid spinball was an amazing home brew integration of a theme okay okay he did a great job of making it feel like the classic Sonic game that I grew up with. I mean, that's the reason why I bought my Sega Genesis. Yeah. Was because what Sonic the Hedgehog, that first game was, it was a big step above the old Nintendo entertainment system. Like that's what pushed Nintendo to do Super Nintendo. That was the 8-bit to 16-bit. and he did such a great job of integrating it making it feel like this was a full game and so it felt like something with with licensing with with creative freedom with being able to use a good art team and i talked to him about it he said well i chose sonic because sega was basically free to let me do whatever i wanted as long as it was a fan project well so they gave them all the assets and everything they were like here you go or they said yeah you can you can use the assets it's fine it's not a it's not a production game um and so i would say that the vibe of it was amazing the flow need it felt like a a first draft it felt like it was you know okay this is a fun game. It's getting something done. But if you were to step that away from a homebrew and actually make a production game, you're going to want to make some changes. If I remember correctly, the ramp on it was gigantic.
    36:40
    And if you didn't hit the ramp, then you had to have been blind, deaf, or dumb. But the point being is, it's probably not that's a that's a pinball wizard reference just in case people don't come back with me with pitchforks kids but the point being is is i i don't feel like the bar was unattainable with creating another sonic product over rhyme equates his is amazing his theme integration is no it's it's great but it's the same as like the led zeppelin home theme or the iron maiden home theme like that that live after death iron maiden game it's a great integration of assets but that's the vibe that you're getting it has nothing to do with gameplay and then I know that Ellen has been on our show I can't remember if this was our Jurassic Park episode I don't think it was Jurassic Park because when we did Jurassic Park it hadn't been out yet we just kind of teased it a lot based off all the rumors we've been hearing and to be fair he didn't talk about it at all we had just heard the rumors that it was going to be that but we didn't talk about it at all so it was actually the Avengers episode. Then, um, we got talking about, because the code name for Jurassic park was jaws. And, you know, we got talking about jaws and that theme as a whole. And Keith, I want shared on the show that Stern had the opportunity to do jaws, but all they had was shark was the shark. Yeah. I don't know. Did they even, yeah. He didn't even bring up if they had like music or anything like that. And it's like, yeah. Okay. So make a shark NATO game. Like who cares? Exactly. So we talked about that on the episode. If you guys want to check it out, go back. It's our Avengers episode. Um, I can't remember this exact tile. You can't miss it though. It's Keith Allen and Avengers. But it's funny to me. Cause like the Jack Ranieri goes off about jaws, you know, uh rumor ish and and like how how another company I think they made said Stern kind of stole it from him but i like i mean granted keith not going to come out on our podcast and say yeah we have jaws and and we're going to make it but what jack was saying was almost what keith was saying as well like jack said the only rights they could get was pretty much the movie poster and there was not really much rights to the jaws so if we're hearing you know looks like a duck sounds like a duck does the stern really have jaws are they going to attempt a jurassic park where they can only do dinosaurs aka sharks and maybe one person that doesn't really have to do with the main plot of the well i guess nedry is the main plot of the movie but they covered three of the movies in one pin i don't know it's just it's weird to me it's weird that we've like is it we're just so starved for rumors that like we forget the stuff that's been said in the past like i don't know it just it's really weird it is what it is right and we don't know the ins and outs of licensing because that is a a completely different discussion in that um it if american pinball doesn't have sonic which it sounds like they don't like how did that happen? Because a lot of times what happens is they'll go and negotiate with some of these licensing people. And it's not like the people who are at Sega are thinking, oh, well, you're the first pinball company that talked to us. So we're just going to go with your offer. Like, you don't think Sega has a stake in the game. You don't think Sega is going to say, hey, if there's going to be a pinball machine, how about we talk to the different pinball manufacturers and see which offer we like well and i'm like why wouldn't they go with stern i mean they used to be sega like i don't know it's just it is what it is is it possible sure now the one thing is that and i know that a homebrew game but on sonic you have to have like a loop-de-loop you have to and i think ryan would would agree with that but it was it's probably a little too more too complex for a homebrew for him to do but i've i said the same thing about um about hot wheels hot wheels should have had a loop-de-loop yeah or at least like the nascar around the track kind of thing around well no i'm thinking like a loop to i see i'm thinking like pinball magic pinball magic had a loop-de-loop on the plunge oh yeah true well this one had the loop-de-loop on his home project uh kind of the catapult into medieval madness and it shots up shoots up through that loop-de-loop. It's even the same side and everything. Yeah. I don't know. I'm excited regardless. I'm a huge, I enjoy Sonic. So it's not a hard thing to push into my family. It would be a great thing. I love the first movie. The first movie, I went in with zero expectations and I had a blast. Second movie was like, okay, it's okay. It wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible. It wasn't despicable. Me three. Um, another one that would actually be great as a minions game yeah i agree but that's i guess that's your rumors i i don't know what to say to that but yeah it just it was weird i kind of want to address them because i'm like i think we are sometimes the the pinball community has the memory of a goldfish well i think they also get pretty territorial on it um yeah you'll get people who like, look, I was the one who started this rumor or I was the one who broke the story. Well, okay, you break enough stories and one of them actually sticks. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go on your batting average.
    42:25
    But I will say the positive thing about it is that that means there's interest. If no one were talking about rumors, then people wouldn't care. You wouldn't be able to sell a $12,000 pinball machine. I agree. Because no one would care.
    42:43
    And it's crazy that we are in a place where a $12,000 pinball machine did sell. I mean, all the CDs are gone and whatnot, but it just – it's crazy because before, let's say, the resurge of, what, six years ago, the only thing that really sold above that was Meval Madness before the remakes, Big Bang Bar, and I don't know if there's really much. Maybe Attack from Mars. But most of these games were not five figures. So I guess we're not worried about that anymore because the market is starting to come back down. Yeah, the market will always correct. The market will always do what the market will need to do. And if the companies don't take a proactive approach on the market, then the aftermarket does. This is the argument on ticket sales where people are complaining about Taylor Swift tickets. They're selling them for $250. I'm like, okay, well, if that's what the market demands, that may not be your price, but your price is not market price. Market price is what someone is willing to pay for that. A golf outing with Bono isn't worth $25,000 for me, but it would be for someone. so that that's the that's where people mistake they mistake their personal market with the collective market i don't know uh if you want to go listen to those interviews they were they were good interviews um i always enjoy christian line and it's cool to see that they have jeff parsons on there now he's he's bringing the the radio personality to that show um it's it's pretty good we need to give jason nap crap for coming through utah not stopping by to say hello yeah jason now apparently i thought we were friends but apparently no apparently not he's on the dead to me list sorry we're getting getting pictures from nap arcades facebook page of being in utah it's like wait a minute hey something's not right here okay so a little update on uh on pinball expo and flipping the script. Um, so we decided that, uh, my family's actually coming to, uh, to Expo. At least we're coming to Illinois. We, we ended up with some, uh, with some airline miles or at least a credit that we forgot we had, uh, because we canceled a trip two years ago. And we started thinking about it like well i'm going to expo and there's a great wolf lodge roughly an hour away and so we are gonna take the kids and go up there and i'll i'll be splitting time between expo and a great wolf lodge but it will be it'll be fun to have the family there and maybe maybe be able to sneak them in for a day at the expo so they can see what's going on what what is this little thing sorry great wolf lodge so it's basically an indoor water park it's it's like a lodge that you go and you it's it's like an amusement park with water but it's all inside gotcha so it's a it's a great family uh family shindig nice well that'll be fun yeah and so we uh with flipping the script we've got the tentative schedule all done so uh i'm just waiting for some more yeses and i think we'll be ready for streaming schedule i think internet's figured out you know i really want to give another shout to george fisher and amanda hamilton they have been fantastic with helping with all the little details and and being gung-ho on this um man this this i'm getting excited we're we're less than three months away it's gonna be here quick we had two more additions to people i'll be hosting with us i'm so excited for this as well uh jan ruper of no coin drop required she's gonna be helping out and doing hosting some time uh with flipping the script and same with craig bobby so those two are great additions to the team on the flipping the script uh stream i'm excited for that as well i'm sorry that's all that's on my mind right now is because i swear that's all i've been doing for the last two weeks again we are super excited just because the um the response has been bigger than i could have anticipated i guess i'll put it that way so i'm really excited about being able to uh to do this and and it makes me feel good knowing it's to a charity that's near and dear to your heart josh because that that makes it even more personal so oh yeah well and and i'm just glad we can be helping helping learning solutions out and so they can keep helping those kids with their early intervention for the autism so yeah what are we looking forward to in the next month what what are you anticipating uh in august yeah i don't know i i think we see one new game from stern before expo and we'll be able to play it at expo yeah i think you're right that's my guesstimation there i'm gonna say it's a pretty solid guess too it's a pretty solid Hey, we can start a rumor right now. Rumor is Stern's new release will be at Expo. Well, I don't – they typically have not tried to release it at Expo. And I – It's not like they're releasing it at Expo. They'll release before Expo. I think we'll be able to play it at Expo, yes. And you'll play it at Expo, yeah.
    48:26
    I don't know if anyone else will have anything out by then. No, I don't think so. Well, you never know. American Pinball could come out and do something. And you never know JJP.
    48:39
    I would be shocked if JJP had another one come out. I'm waiting to see them release a game a year. That's what I'm waiting for.
    48:50
    But other than that, yeah, I'm totally looking for – I'm looking forward to playing a lot more pinball and really looking forward to it. Again, I hope that you took my feedback on Rush in Ellen Stern's support in the correct way. I'm hoping they are being as transparent as they possibly can. And I am just projecting my frustration that I haven't been able to play the game yet. I get you. And they're all good customer service. It's just it's hard sometimes because you have an excitement for this game and you want to play it. Well, it's a little bit like Wonka. I want it now. Yes. But, Daddy, I want the Oompa Loompa now. so all right well if you want to get a hold of us we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com if you want to get a hold of us on the socials we are at loser kid pinball on instagram twitter twitch and facebook uh that's the best way to get a hold of us i know that we've got a bunch of hats that are being ordered they're probably going to be set aside for expo with expo only being a couple months away and it's taking a pain in the it's a pain in the butt to get a hold of these hats nowadays i just i just ordered how many did i order that i ordered uh 15 or 10 each yeah you did 20 20 total so yeah so and you're getting yours and we're that that's not even including like what we're going to bring to expo so yeah so we're i'm pretty excited uh we'll be locked cocked and ready to rock for a good good show so got anything else for scott before we sign off no i think we're great i will uh i'll definitely give you an update when i get that get uh rush flipping because i i i know it's going to be a great game when i get it dialed in i agree so and then uh if you haven't done so you should go check check out triple drain especially this last episode it was kind of good shenanigans so well i guess i'll see you in two weeks maybe scott okay all right happy birthday tomorrow thanks
    50:56
    Shut up and sit down. Bye.