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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 47: Why No Balls In Mouth?!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 49m·analyzed·Jan 14, 2024
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TL;DR

Hosts defend Jaws pinball design against community complaints about missing shark-mouth mech.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast hosts Joel, Travis, and Tom discuss community backlash over Jaws pinball lacking a shark-eating-ball mechanic. Designers Keith Elwin and Harrison Drake confirmed they tested and rejected this feature as unfun; hosts defend the design decision and criticize keyboard-commander complaints, emphasizing that casual and high-end collector reception is positive. The conversation pivots to appreciating shot layout complexity, combo design, and deeper game mechanics over novelty toys.

Key Claims

  • Keith Elwin and Harrison Drake designed and tested a shark-mouth-eating-ball mechanic for Jaws but rejected it as unfun

    high confidence · Hosts cite Elwin and Drake directly stating this in podcast; presented as factual from designer testimony

  • Casual players and high-end collectors love Jaws; negative feedback primarily from active online pinball community/message board users

    high confidence · Tom (working with dealer) reports sales velocity higher than past year releases; casuals and collectors enthusiastic vs. online community complaints

  • Jaws contains complex shot combos including left ramp to upper playfield to mini flipper to reverse 180 wire form to horizontal spinner figure-8 sequence

    high confidence · Travis describes detailed combo sequence he observed in Stern gameplay debut video; cites texting Tom about it

  • Pinball community often builds idealized versions of games in their minds disconnected from actual mechanical/design reality

    medium confidence · Joel and Travis discuss how community expectations vs. actual feasibility diverge; people create VPX expectations ignoring physics

  • Jurassic Park featured dinosaur eating ball; Jaws does not because sharks are underwater and scoop-based mechanic would be repetitive

    medium confidence · Hosts debate mechanical feasibility; acknowledge Jurassic Park precedent but explain why different approach chosen for Jaws

  • Flip for the Cure epilepsy tournament held March 9th in Toledo, Ohio; third annual; raised over $10K last year

    high confidence · Joel announces Jason sent email with event details; confirms previous year fundraising

  • Keith Elwin designs incorporate hidden elements and meaning in every playfield detail

    medium confidence · Hosts discuss discovering hidden combos and elements in Jaws; Travis notes Elwin's design philosophy of intentional placement

Notable Quotes

  • “We designed a mech for you to shoot the ball into a shark's mouth. And you know what? It sucked.”

    Keith Elwin / Harrison Drake (cited by hosts) @ early segment — Central justification for design decision; presents designer credibility as reason to trust removal of expected mechanic

  • “Why does the pinball community hear that and go, nah, like, nah, they're wrong. They didn't try hard enough... Like, is that not enough, like, credibility for the pinball community to trust?”

    Joel @ mid-segment — Expresses frustration with community dismissing designer expertise

  • “You hit that on the fly. It comes back down figure eight to the mini flipper... This is amazing. When we talk about pinball moments and stuff like that, how can that not be cool?”

    Travis @ late segment — Detailed description of complex combo mechanic; pivot from toy-focused complaints to shot geometry appreciation

  • “When you start understanding actual shot geometry, why is this shot here? Does it have meaning. Everything in a pinball machine, especially a Keith Elwin design, it has meaning to it.”

    Joel @ late segment — Articulates deeper design philosophy; argues for appreciating complexity beyond surface mechanics

  • “The majority can't comprehend where the ball is going to go. I'll tell you that right now. After listening to a lot of the YouTube videos and reading comments, a lot of people cannot comprehend geometry and the physics of a layout.”

    Travis @ mid-late segment — Critiques community's understanding gap; explains why casual players focus on toys rather than shot layout

  • “I'm convinced Stern has screwed up. They should have just had one shark on the play field that eats all the balls, 3,000 LEs, $20,000 a piece. It evidently would have sold out.”

    Joel @ mid-segment — Sarcastic critique of community's toy obsession; suggests design decisions driven by FOMO/collectibility rather than gameplay

  • “If a game is just solely about one mech and that's it, I'm sorry. It's going to get boring, and it's going to get boring fast.”

Entities

Jaws (Stern Pinball)gameKeith ElwinpersonHarrison DrakepersonJoelpersonTravispersonTompersonStern PinballcompanyJurassic Park (Stern Pinball)game

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Significant community backlash against Jaws for lacking shark-eating-ball mechanic despite designers publicly stating they tested and rejected it as unfun

    high · Entire episode framed around addressing this complaint; hosts cite Elwin/Drake podcast statements; acknowledge Stern also acknowledged community would be disappointed

  • ?

    event_signal: Flip for the Cure epilepsy research tournament; third annual event; March 9, 2024, Toledo Ohio; previous year raised $10K+

    high · Joel announces event details from Jason's email; confirms charitable focus and fundraising success

  • ?

    community_signal: Community tendency toward group-think and echo chamber effects; people form opinions based on YouTube/Facebook/Pinside rather than primary sources; once an idea spreads, it becomes consensus

    medium · Joel/Travis discuss how people don't listen to Stern podcasts directly; build up idealized game versions in minds disconnected from mechanical reality; compare to VPX virtual pinball unrealistic expectations

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Mechanical engineering challenge: shark-mouth scoop would functionally be redundant with existing shots; implementation would require either trivial one-shot execution or complex animation/ball routing that adds little gameplay value

    high · Hosts deconstruct multiple hypothetical shark-mouth implementations (popping up, feeding back); conclude each approach either trivial or mechanically impractical; none justify dedicated mech

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin intentionally designs games with hidden combos and meaningful playfield placement; every element has purpose beyond surface mechanics

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.329

0:00
the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast tom it's it's 2024 and we need another we need to upgrade we need we need we need a better third wheel and yeah i thought travis i thought you were leaving for loser kid yeah are we still stuck with you.
0:26
I got fired already. Missed you till you were gone, man. Don't worry about it. It's fine. So this is take two. This is take two of recording this episode. Episode number 47. We're slowly getting to 50. We started recording and Thomas, or Tom, well, Travis, sounded like a jet engine. Like a robot.
0:51
Yeah, so it's his furnace going off And then he had a, it's everything, everything. It was quieter going back from California from Indus in the plane than it was on Travis's microphone. It's just so consistent. It's so, every episode, Travis. So the question, Travis, is are you ready to record this podcast? I am a thousand percent ready and fired up, Joel. God, okay. He is fired up. Furnace isn't fired up anymore. You're doing that bad boy. I am freezing. for you two ables right now. I've turned everything off. There's a freaking blizzard outside. I'm not going to have heat. You're in a basement. Basements are the same temp all the time. All the time. Fake news. At least you're not in Wisconsin.
1:41
Tom, how you doing, man? You ready to go? You feeling good? Yeah, I mean, it's a blizzard outside, so I got nothing better to do. Alright, I'm hitting the button. We We're three guys who like to talk it long. So we came up with a class by name. We're joyous at the time of talking long. Let me call ourselves Triple Three. We're Triple, Triple Three.

Joel @ late segment — Core argument against novelty-focused game design; emphasizes longevity through depth

  • “Everybody talks about pinball moments, which I totally get... but like think of Adam's family okay you see Thing grab the ball it is really cool when you first see it but if you've played the game a thousand times... that mech kind of gets annoying.”

    Tom @ late segment — Counters nostalgia/moment-based design criticism with longevity argument

    • Godzilla (Stern Pinball)
    game
    Iron Maiden (Stern Pinball)game
    Avengers (Stern Pinball)game
    Addams Family (Pinball)game
    Cactus Canyon (Stern Pinball)game
    Medieval Madness (Williams Pinball)game
    Attack from Mars (Williams Pinball)game
    Flippin' Outorganization
    Flip for the Cureevent
    Michael Joyceperson
    El Gato Promptorproduct
    Triple Drain Pinball Podcastorganization
    Pinsideorganization
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (Pinball)game
    Monster Bash (Pinball)game
    Dracula (Pinball)game
    Metallica Premium (Stern Pinball)game

    high · Hosts discuss discovering hidden bounty hunt mechanic, shot combo sequences, and comparing to previous Elwin designs (Avengers, Iron Maiden); Travis describes detailed combo execution requiring player effort and discovery

  • $

    market_signal: Tom (dealer) reports Jaws has higher sales velocity than other games from past year; strong casual and collector demand despite online community complaints

    high · Tom: 'the feedback that we're getting compared to other games that have come out in this past year is way better. And the sales velocity is way higher.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Keith Elwin design approach: complex, interconnected shot geometry with multiple decision points, combos requiring player discovery, and hidden mechanical elements vs. single-novelty-toy focus

    high · Travis walks through multi-part combo sequence (left ramp → upper PF → mini flipper → wire form → horizontal spinner → figure-eight → post trap → quick shot lane → fin target); describes as 'amazing' and 'rewarding'; contrasts with toy-based design

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Michael Joyce (Player Too owner) compliments Tom's appearance/style; indicates active social interaction at tournament level

    medium · Tom mentions Joyce's comment about goatee resembling 'evil mastermind of heist' at Green Bay tournament

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Divergence between online pinball community (negative/complainant) vs. casual players and high-end collectors (very positive reception)

    high · Tom reports from dealer perspective that sales velocity higher than past releases, casuals and collectors enthusiastic, pushback primarily from active online community/message boards

  • ?

    technology_signal: Triple Drain Podcast upgrading production with El Gato Promptor teleprompters funded through Patreon; improvement to video recording quality and on-camera performance

    high · Joel discusses Patreon funds used for Tom and Joel to purchase El Gatos; Travis already has one; expected to improve camera-focus in future episodes

    • 2:13
    Okay, here we go. Here we go. We are fired up, ready to go. We are actually recording this on a Friday afternoon. It's a little different than us. Everybody should be awake. Everybody should be ready to go. We have a little bit of busy work here right off the top. First off, I want to give a shout-out to Jason. Jason sent me an email, and he says he is hosting. They have an epilepsy tournament that they host, or it's called Flip for the Cure. It's on March 9th in Toledo, Ohio. This is the third annual. Apparently, all the proceeds go to Epilepsy Research. That is extremely hard. Can you say that word, Travis?
    2:55
    No. Okay. Last year apparently they raised over $10K, and Johnny Crap did the artwork for it. So it's in Toledo, Ohio. It's called Flip for the Cure. I don't have anything specific other than the date, March 9th. Definitely give that a try if you're anywhere in the region. but yeah apparently a friend of his is making the shirts he's donating a portion of every shirt to charity as well so yeah Jason thanks for letting us know about that should be good other side note Patreon we do have a Patreon and we are super appreciative of that if you enjoy Tom's face if you look at Tom's face right now he is looking straight at the camera as he should he looks beautiful one he's grown a goatee it looks incredible it's kind of a what did you say you look like the evil mastermind of, of heist, you know? Yeah. No, that's what, uh, Michael Joyce from a player too. He's the owner of player too. He told me that last night at the tournament in green Bay. So, um, I was, I, he's like, it looks awesome. It's a good look. It's a good look. I'm glad we have two men on this podcast and a little baby face boy over there with that lack. Just Travis one day, one day, man. no comment i mean what do you want me to say joel i'm nearly 40 years old and i barely have to shave what i yeah i have nothing do you shave i mean is it like uh every night is it a tweeze yeah it's a little bit a little bit of shaving involved i mean we've already established this if i try to grow out my facial hair it's like i'm a live action joe dirt and i don't want that are the Are hairs, like, coarse or are they wispy?
    4:46
    Define wispy. Like, if you don't shave for a few days and Monica touches your face, is it sandpaper or is it just sandpaper? It's like gray and black sandpaper. It is horrible. Like a Brillo pad. My 14-year-old grows more facial hair than I do. I don't understand it. I don't question it.
    5:08
    Perfect. Well, anyways, I was mentioning Patreon because, one, we need shaving equipment. No. We should get a Harry's. I wish we had a Harry's. We could get a Harry's sponsor, Harry's Shave Club, and we'd make Travis do the – because he's the only one that needs it, right?
    5:25
    But, no, if you like Tom's face, Tom is currently using a new piece of equipment called the El Gato Promptor. And thank you to Patreon because Patreon just paid for me to buy myself an El Gato Promptor. Travis already has one. Tom got one. So hopefully next time we do this podcast, I'll be looking at the camera instead of at the screen. But no, really, we do appreciate it. We really just kind of keep that any sort of financial support there. We just kind of keep it on the side, whether we like support a tournament or donate it in a way or buy ourselves equipment. It's all just for the hobby or it's for the podcast. Unless you're just listening to the podcast, then it goes without saying that you won't be sailing.
    6:04
    Yes, you will not. you will look at the thumbnail and that's what, that's what it'll look like. So, um, that's it for housekeeping, uh, stuff to talk about. Um, I want to talk about jaws. And the reason I want to talk about jaws is what in the world are people thinking? People are going nuts over jaws and their own, their opinions on how the game should have been designed, how they, their complaint. They just, it's so much complaining. Like, they're complaining. This is Keith Elwin, and people are complaining about the layout or the mix. I'm going to let Tom go first because Tom is buying one. Throw me under the bus. I want Tom to talk first because I'm revved up. I'm ready to go. I know Travis has thoughts, but we're going to let Tom talk here. Well, here's a good question. Yes. Okay. Are we starting from the very top because everything leaked out? And then it just kind of went from, are we just going straight to that? Apparently you have to shove pinballs into a shark's mouth to have any joy in life. Where are we starting at? We're going to go with opening. Why isn't the shark eating the ball? That's the main focus of hundreds of world of genetics.
    7:27
    Do you care? You're buying an LE. Do you care at all that that shark is not eating the ball? That would have been nice, sure. but would it be the determining factor for me buying this game? No. No, not at all. And we've had a lot of talk. We've had a lot of conversations, Tom, and you've said before, you go, I think I might be out on buying LEs. I may be a premium guy from here on out. But you're in on an LE. So you saw something to make you pull the trigger on that. Yeah, I saw a bunch of modes and shots that looked extremely interesting. I like the horizontal spinner. I think that's really neat. I love the fin target that comes out of the play field and you got to hit it.
    8:19
    There's some really cool shots. I love that lower flipper where you can actually catch the ball and trap it and then make a shot with it.
    8:31
    There's just a lot of unique things going on. I was kind of skeptical about the mini play field because, again, I'm not a huge mini play field person.
    8:44
    But it seems like the ball really doesn't stay up there very long, I should say. And we'll talk about the mini play field more later as there were some videos alluding to it was an unmakeable shot to get up there, which I was like, what? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What? Yeah. What is, I mean, what's just the right, okay, yeah. So balls in shark mouth, right? Balls in, why is there no, why do you not shoot the shark in the mouth? So let's just start with the facts, the facts. F-A-C-T-S. Facts. Straight out of Keith Elwin's mouth, and it's Nagel, right? Is it... Harrison Drake and Rick Nagel. So it's Harrison Drake. Harrison Drake is the guy that straight out of the mechanical engineer and the game designer, straight out of their mouth, they said, we designed a mech for you to shoot the ball into a shark's mouth. And you know what? It sucked. Why does the pinball community hear that and go, nah, like, nah, they're wrong. They didn't try hard enough. Or, like, we're talking about Keith Elwin and Harrison Drake. They have designed Iron Maiden, Jurassic Park, Godzilla, Avengers. Like, is that not enough, like, credibility for the pinball community to trust? But Jurassic Park had a dinosaur that ate the ball. You sure did. He sure did. Pop that guy right in the mouth. He just gobbles it on up. So what do you want to do? You want to hover a shark over top of a ramp that drops down just like Jurassic Park? What Keith was saying was sharks are underwater. So unless they put a lower play field in and then put a shark under there, the only way that shark can eat the ball is the shark would have to come out would have to come above the play field so now you have a shark that pops out of the play field and you shoot it in the mouth what did you just make? you made a scoop it's nothing new you shoot the ball in the shark's mouth now what does the ball do? what do you do with the ball? does the shark throw the ball back up?
    11:11
    that's dumb do you want a subway? so great, the shark pops up you shoot it in the mouth What, the shark pops down? And then the ball just shows up somewhere else in the subway? And if so, that was one moment in the entire movie. One moment in the entire movie. So do you save that? Do you save this crazy mech until the very, like, some critical, huge moment deep in the game? Because the game is designed for you to be, what, quint, right? And you're, like, fishing. You're, like, catching sharks. You're not blowing every shark up. You're catching sharks. So, theoretically, you shouldn't be shooting every shark in the mouth. Like, it's, I just, yeah. So, then you have a scoop. You got the shark pops up, you shoot it in the mouth, and then it disappears, right? Or do you want it to blow up, too? Because if it's just a standard stagnant thing, are you going to make a scoop that moves back and forth on the play field? Like, how are you going to do that? I'm honestly convinced Stern has screwed up. They should have just had one shark on the play field that eats all the balls, 3,000 LEs, $20,000 a piece. It evidently would have sold out. Just for that. I just, clearly. I mean, Keith Owen said it, and Harrison Drake said it. They said it in a podcast very clearly. We designed that mech, and it wasn't fun. It did not work well. And the fact that it seems like the entire pinball community can just ignore that and give them no benefit of the doubt of, like, you know what? I'm going to trust arguably the greatest pinball designer working today. I'm going to trust his call to remove that mech or not pursue that mech. No. These keyboard commanders are sitting there like, nah, they should have tried harder.
    12:58
    It's mind-blowing. Well, it goes back, and we've talked about this before, a lot off-podcast and somewhat on-podcast, that when people are aware of certain games coming out, certain themes coming out, they will build up the best possible version of this in their reality. Like, it doesn't mean it's the best possible version for real, for what the bomb is, for the direction of the design, the intended design, the mechs that have already been tested. But that doesn't matter. What matters is what is the best version that they've built up in their mind based off what they think is possible. Not what is possible, not what can be done in reality, but just what they want to see. It's like everybody's creating a, what's that called, like the VPX pinball stuff or whatever online. Yeah, virtual pinball to where it totally ignores any type of physics, any type of actual real world mechanical. I mean, it just does. And so when people think of it that way and they build it up so much in their in their minds, when it doesn't match up with that one particular thing, that's what they run with. And I think that's kind of what we're seeing. And on the second part of it, I don't know too many people that are going straight to Stern's website to listen to a podcast either. So if a lot of people get their information off of YouTube or off of Facebook message boards or Pinside, they're going to run with that. You know what I mean? Like you hear one idea, then you just form that idea and you're like, oh yeah, that's what I think too. And it becomes like a group think thing and you just run with it. Now that's not being said, like, of course, you can be disappointed that there's not a certain type of mech that you want it in the game. But yeah, it's been stated why it's not there. To me, it makes sense. I mean, we've talked about this for a few months now that it wouldn't make any sense to have a shark eating a ball at all in this game. At least to me, it wouldn't have. I thought it would have made more sense to have boats on this. It would have made more sense to have certain shots that just lead you to experience the game on top of the water because the shark is always below the water. I don't know. it's almost like people didn't envision this as Jaws. They thought it was going to be Sharknado or something like that. Like, I don't know what happened with that. Cocaine shark. Yeah. But we talked about it, though. We did talk privately that, yeah, when there's not a shark eating a ball, that people will probably lose their minds. And I think even on the Stern podcast, they even acknowledged that, that they realize that, too. I mean, and that's just a common thing. Like, people want to see stuff like that happen. And it's funny. It's not because it's overly difficult to make happen. We've seen plenty of mechs that have done something like that before. It's just, yeah, they simply stayed it. It wasn't fun. It wasn't cool. And it obviously didn't fit with the direction where they wanted to take the game. Yeah. So one example of that is Turtles, right? There are, oh, God, no signal. It's back, baby. He had it fixed. But it is back. It's back. New year, baby. Yep. All right. You played with Turtles? Turtles. Is that what you said? Yeah. So turtles, people are like, how do you design a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle game without there being a subway? Like, how do you not have an underground mech? You know, there are people that just kind of befuddled by that. But you know what? There is one. There is one, and it's a great game. It's a great game. I'm not, every single time I play turtles, I don't look at this going, I hate this game because I can't shoot the ball into the play field. But when I look at the current design, right, so let's say, hypothetically, when you bash the boat, the boat pops up. So instead of the shark facing up, what if the shark was facing at you and his mouth was wide open? What do you have? You have one shot. You're going to shoot it straight in the mouth. That's it. I'm assuming with the code there will be, as the sharks get harder, you probably have to bash it more than one time. If you have it like that, no, it's one and done every time. So it sounds like, oh, up, gobble, down. So what would you have to do then? You'd have to design something like the Snake Mech or the Premium Metallica, where it's like the mouth is closed. you bash her enough and then the mouth opens. Great, don't get me wrong. That would be a really cool mech, but how do you, like, can you really fit all that in in a way and then what do you do with the ball? How do you magically get that, like, you don't want it to spit back out? That seems odd. Well, not only that, it's, you know, there's wizard modes that still need to be put into the game. So it's not like that there's not going to be a final battle with balls to where you're not hitting that bash toy and then it goes back under and then you got to bring it back up and hit it again so many times for like the ultimate final battle. And it's not like there's not going to be a challenge mode for that. That in itself just makes sense. That something like that is probably going to happen. So, and they've already said there's certain elements of this to where you can play as jaws too. You play as a shark eventually, like that's coming. So like, I have to think they're going to incorporate certain things like that into the future. So, but I just don't understand. I mean, I get it that you, we've talked about this a lot. People have it in their head. This is the theme. They start brainstorming. If I was going to make the game, what would I do? And sure, I understand. If anybody would have told us Jaws six months ago and you're like, well, what do you think will happen? It's like, well, I assume you'd hit a shark with a ball. Like, or I assume a shark's going to eat a ball. Like, you would assume those things. But what I find frustrating is why there's no trust.
    18:28
    You know, when you hear straight out of the designer's mouth, straight out of the lead engineer's mouth, We tried it, and trust me, it wasn't fun. I just don't understand how people don't trust that or don't like, okay, I'm sorry, but I'm going to trust that Keith Elwin made a smart design decision and provided us the best game that he thinks he can. Versus, no, we got to leave this Shark Mech in because people are going to be upset. Well, so there's an interesting way that this is going down, at least on my end with working for a dealer. A lot of people that were not aware that there was going to be a Jaws pinball machine at all, that are extreme casuals, they're seeing this game for the first time and they are absolutely blown away. Like, they love the colors. They love the shots. They love the video assets. So a lot of that, the feedback that we're getting compared to other games that have come out in this past year is way better. And the sales velocity is way higher. So really the pushback that we are seeing and reading about the most is coming from your average pinball fan that consumes content or is active on message boards. But your high end collectors, they love what they're seeing. Your casuals, they love what they're seeing. So, yeah, it's just I don't know, maybe it's just another another release and just something for us all to complain about at some point. I mean, it happens, you know, ever. I don't want to just shit all over everybody's opinions because everybody's opinion is valid, even if we're like, well, we don't agree with that at all. But it's still valid that somebody can give an opinion. Right. We're not going to put on a five year rule on him or anything like that. But the reality is, too, is that there is a disconnect between people that might not understand pinball to the extent that others do. Meaning if you do have your extreme casual and they see something, they're not so jaded to where they don't necessarily not see something cool in it. In the same way with a high-end collector to where they view pinball through a much different prism or a much different way than what somebody else does. It's the same way, like, if I see a new pinball, yeah, I want to see the lights. Yeah, I do want to see the ball do something cool. But to me, seeing the ball do something cool also involves other parts of the pinball machine and not just one mech. Because where a lot of people forget, a mech isn't just one thing. A mech could be flippers. It could be a pop bumper. It could be the way a shot, you know, hits a switch and gives you a different sound or a different jackpot effect, a lighting effect. There's many different ways to go about that. So when I see a pin, I want to see what the shots are like. I want to see, does the ball do something cool in that way? And to me, seeing a mech interact with the ball in a cool way, yeah, that's excellent. But guess what? A ball can also interact with a pinball machine in a cool way because the shot is cool. The geometry is cool, right? And there's a lot of that in this game. And there's combos that I've never seen before out of any other pinball machine. And I think I even went over one with Tom before when we were discussing the upper play field and everything. And I was just like, this is freaking amazing. And out of all the reviews I've watched, out of all the first impressions I've watched, nobody has even mentioned this combo at all. And I'm just like, that shocks me. But at the same time, it gives an indication of where people are at with their mindset, how they view pinball machines and what they actually see. And I don't know, that could be for various reasons. It could be because their skill set only allows them to see so far into the game. It could be that they're just very much zeroed in on one particular thing, and they have blinders to everything else. I mean, there could be a multitude of reasons of why this is happening. Well, so, Tom, when a brand-new game is released or announced or you see the trailer leaked or otherwise, when you first look at the game, what do you think you're first looking at or looking for is it mechs is it art is it are you already do you go straight to shot layout like what what are you what's going to grab your attention first i i would say for sure shot layout and also like what's different in this game compared to everything else that's been made um you know because we've seen in the past some cookie cutter designs where it's just a fan layout and this has a lot of differences i mean the first thing that pops out is is like you know again that fin target popping out of the playfield um i don't know if that's been done in any game or i mean like where a moving target It pops out of the play field. The other thing is a horizontal spinner. Yeah. You know. Mick on a stick, right? People are saying Mick on a stick, but, like, that's always out. Or Dracula. Yeah. Dracula, Monster Bash, it's always out. Well, not always, but combining that with the Cactus Canyon drops, essentially, where they drop up, you have a chance to hit it, and then they drop back down. The fact that we have a moving drop, that's what, I know Cactus Canyon has been a big hit here at this house, and a big part of that is the drops in the middle. Because it's so easy to know, like any casual, that pops up. You don't have to say anything. They know, I want to shoot that. And that's what I think it draws. I hope it's not, you don't have to hit much for your first chance of the ball, the post popping up, holding the ball, just like Cactus Canyon. And then you see that, and you're, ooh, I know what I'm, you know, like, I think that will be a hit. I think that is going to be the mech that people really talk about and are excited about. I totally agree with you, that fin. But you said you look at shot layout first. And honestly, I think that is not normal. I don't think the majority of novice players really even think about where the ball is going to go. The majority can't comprehend where the ball is going to go. I'll tell you that right now. After listening to a lot of the YouTube videos and reading comments, a lot of people cannot comprehend geometry and the physics of a layout. It seems like the average person just wants like a bass toy or a shark that eats a ball. Yeah. They want a main focus of a toy. And it's like there's more to do on the game than what's that? They want late 80s, early 90s pinball. That's what they want. They want medieval madness or Attack from Mars. That's just hit up the middle. No, hit up the middle. Just they want a fun toy. And I'm all for toys. I want fun mechs. I mean, when I saw the Godzilla reveal, right, this is a hindsight thing. But I remember when I saw the Godzilla reveal, I was so focused on, like, that building's going to be so cool. Bashing that thing, it go down, it becomes a diverter. The bridge mech. Like, I was, me being the more novice player than you guys, I'm looking at these mechs going, there are so many cool things to experience on this pin. And then I remember Travis coming out of here. He turns out to be right, but he's like, I think there's a chance that this may be one of the greatest games of all time. And I'm thinking, like, why? Like, why would you assume that? but I know you guys are going the next level of you're looking at the shot layout, the shot pass, the comboing opportunities. That's what Keith Owen brings to the table.
    26:08
    And that's what after I – so with Flippin' Out with Friends, we actually showed the – like I had watched the leaked trailer, and we had a discussion about it before the official thing was announced, which probably shouldn't have done. I feel kind of bad about that, Stern. But one thing, I watched the heck out of that leaked trailer, and I drew – I drew a shot, like I tried to draw the shots based off of the week trailer. And once I started drawing that and actually trying to map out the path, that's when the genius of Keith Elwin really stood out to me where it's like, don't look past what the shark is doing or not doing and just look at the layout. And once again, the, you, how unique Jurassic Park's layout is, how unique Godzilla's layout is. He did it again of, of another, you know, The fact that that horizontal spinner that Tom is talking about whips around and whips behind as a figure eight shot behind the pop to feet like, what kind of shot? These shot paths are incredible. I think too Joel it very important for people listening that what we talking about it doesn mean like oh that just a pure excuse for why there not a certain mech in the game or something like that What this is aimed at is that when you can go beyond just a foundational level of seeing a game and then that all you see is just like one thing it will open up like so many pathways for your pinball enjoyment, for your hobby, for everything that you like in pinball. When you start understanding actual shot geometry, why is this shot here? Does it have meaning. Everything in a pinball machine, especially a Keith Elwin design, it has meaning to it. There's a reason why it's there, and it's like that for every designer. People just need to learn to see that part. Once you go beyond it, that's when you can really see the true excellence of games stand out. The bottom line is, if a game is just solely about one mech and that's it, I'm sorry. It's going to get boring, and it's going to get boring fast. Very fast. So if all we're thinking about is oh, this pinball machine just needs to appeal to a casual and that's it to put in one credit on location and then that's it. You know what I mean? It's going to get boring. Sorry to interrupt, Joel, but everybody talks about pinball moments, which I totally get. I like pinball moments too. but like think of Adam's family okay you see Thing grab the ball it is really cool when you first see it but if you've played the game a thousand times I mean this game's been out a long time that mech kind of gets annoying you know yeah when it grabs the ball and puts it back you're like, I just want to play. So, I mean, it's a great moment in time, but it loses its luster after a while. And just going over the video Stern did, going over the game, I was amazed at how many different things are actually in this game. And there are some, elements to other games that Keith has done that are hidden in there, but you've got to find it. Like the bounty hunt. You pick your shark and you've got to do certain things to the game to get the actual shark. It kind of reminded me of Avengers collecting the Avengers.
    29:53
    Iron Maiden has something too, right? Yeah, Iron Maiden working towards your Cyborg or something. Yeah, Cyborg and multiple power features. So it kind of reminds me of that. And there's features, you know, there's other things too that, you know, I'd rather have people discover it for themselves. But, I mean, there's a lot going on that people don't realize. I mean, I'll say during the gameplay debut, there was a shot combo on there that we just talked about a little bit earlier that I remember I texted Tom and I was just like, holy effing shit. Did you see what just happened? Look at this. And basically it's legitimately a shot combo that involves hitting the left ramp, going up to the upper play field, right? Then you're using that mini flipper up there to hit it back around the mini ramp that hits the reverse one 80 wire form, which makes it go back up vertical while you're on the lower play field. Then the feed comes back down to the left flipper. And then you have a decision. You can either live catch or on the fly, you can hit the horizontal spinner. That's the real shot. So you hit that on the fly. It comes back down figure eight to the mini flipper. And from there you could, in theory, hit on the fly or you could actually post trap. Stop. Yeah. Yeah, on that post, and then send the ball horizontal with the mini flipper up the quick shot lane, which, again, sends it vertical again. And depending on how good you hit that, activates that little hurry up, that quick shot hurry up. And then the ball feeds back down. I'm not even done yet. Then the ball feeds back down to the left flipper, and that's when you can hit that moving target that comes up out of the play field to finish everything off. And I'm just like, this is amazing. When we talk about pinball moments and stuff like that, how can that not be cool? Because you have to make an effort to finish that. And when you do, how freaking rewarding would that type of combo be as opposed to just bad toys? You're a tournament player. You only care about score, Travis. Oh, my gosh. That's another thing, too. What is this? Like, what is going on with this war from everybody on tournament players? Like I see people, you all suck. It's like, I see people bagging on Carl or like blowing up a machine and looking like, I'm not even going to name the name, like looking like he's joyless. I'm like, what kind of shit is that? Like, seriously, like, um, you know, it just doesn't make any sense to me, but here's the thing, Joel, here's the thing. Yeah.
    32:31
    The fact is with tournament players. Yeah. When we're playing in a tournament. Yeah. Of course we want to score a lot of points. Of course we do. The games are set up more difficult. But guess what? Also, because we know how to score points and we know how to progress through the game, when we play them at home, we get to see more of the game. Yeah. And we get to play wizard modes. So maybe, just maybe, if people would realize that and start approaching a game from that standpoint, you will see more of the game. You'll experience it more and your enjoyment will be so much further. I mean, Joel, honestly, compared to where you were at two, three years ago, right? Are you having more fun today? I like it less. Is that the question? Yeah. Or are you having less fun? I like you less. It's okay. You can hate my guts. Am I enjoying pinball more? I am. And why is that? Like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but why do you enjoy it more today from a gameplay standpoint compared to three years ago? There's, so three years ago, I mean, I still typically focus a lot on progression, but I understand there is something appetizing of like, if you actually start to pursue points in the Godzilla thing in December really made me start to do this, where I'd never crossed a billion. I'd never crossed a billion points, and I did it twice, and it was huge, and it was because it's like, okay, I'm not, I need to get some points here in these modes, and guess what? You start getting points, you get more extra balls, or you get further in the modes, or all of a sudden things start to open up that weren't open before, so not only did I progress further in the game, I was on my third city, I had, like, I saw Planet X at one point or something, like, it was just, not only did I get further in the game, I also got more points than I ever got. And I understand my excuse, and I don't mean it in a bad way, but I never cared about points because I knew I wasn't going to get them. Like, I wasn't going to get, like, I'm not going to tell myself, I'm not going to have fun on Godzilla until I get a billion points. Like, the heck with that. You know, have fun with the game, but the better you get at a game, the points come with it. And so I don't care. Like, I've never, you know, when I'm in a certain mode and it's like, well, I can finish the mode by hitting this shot, or I can do ramp, ramp to multiply it and then hit the shot. Well, depending on how I'm feeling, I may say screw the ramps. I just want to get out of the mode and move on. But I know you guys are like, no, ramp, ramp, ramp, ramp, ramp, ramp. You just hit the nail on the head of why it's more fun to think this way. You just went through thinking of, okay, do I do a risk or reward? Which one do I do? And because you allow yourself to have that decision, Yeah. That makes the game more fun. Yeah. If you didn't think about it at all, you would bypass that immediately. Well. And you would go straight to just. So, Godzilla. Vanilla pinball. Godzilla tier two battles. A lot of those are flight or flee. And, you know, for a while I was like, I just want to get through this. So, it's almost like I just want to get out of the mode. I want to get out of the mode. And after, it's like, no, these battles are fun. Like, fight them for a little bit, you know. But I totally get what you're saying. What I thought was, it seems like, would the pinball community be happier if Keith Elwin would have taken Guardians of the Galaxy,
    35:44
    taken Groot Heads out, and put in a shark mouth? Because that's apparently all they want. And that's no disrespect to Guardians, but it's just like, that is a fan layout with ramps that return to your flippers, right orbit, left orbit. But is that genuinely what the pinball community wants? Because what you guys are talking about, what Travis just got all excited about, was this crazy combo layout, flowy, unique experience.
    36:15
    And I just – it's one of those, like – and that's where I just wish, can we just show Keevo with a little bit of respect and trust him when he says, I designed that mech and it wasn't fun. Because – Well, we can answer that right now of whether the community would want that or not. What is the community comparing Jaws to? What games?
    36:36
    Probably Godzilla and Jurassic Park. Yeah. And then I've heard Foo Fighters. That's it. Yeah. So you're naming off a couple of games that have been well received for the past couple of years, and one of the games is literally the best-selling game in Stern's history? Like, what are we really comparing here to? Yeah. You know what I mean? And we've talked about this before, and there's a lot of people that are on such high level that even their supposed mid-tier or slightly above average efforts are probably going to be better than the vast majority of people's S-tier effort. Like, that's just the reality of it. Oh, you're saying from a designer standpoint, yeah. From any standpoint, like not just the pinball design from anything. It's just like we're judging this game up against all timers, right? Like Jurassic Park, Godzilla, those are all-time great machines. Foo Fighters, well-received when it first came out. Does it say something that we're judging Jaws against those? I think it does. We're not judging Jaws against them. We're not judging Jaws against, like, Big Buck Hunter. Yeah. You know, it's not like that. I mean, they're judging it off the bar, just like you said. That's just the reality of it. And so the more I've watched it, and it's like, okay, so what are people complaining about? They're complaining about the mech or a lack of mech. But what I've thought about is I've thought about Foo Fighter and I've thought about Deadpool. You look at Deadpool, Deadpool really doesn't have any mech, like any crazy mech. There's really nothing there. But yet Deadpool is a top ten game, and part of it is the layout. Like I think a big part of it is the layout. Every time you hit the katana ramp, it's fun. The schnick shot, it's fun. Like, that's the thing that I look at Tom's game behind him. I see Rush. He's not playing Rush because he just can't wait to hit the time machine. Now I want to go hit the time machine. I just want to hit the time machine. I just want to see the ball stopped with a mech. I just want to hit the time machine. Like, he's not playing Avengers because I just want to hit the Captain Marvel ramp. Like, it's not the mech that's going to give him, that pulls him back in. It's code, and it's the layout. You want to have a game where the shots are continually bringing you joy, and that's the thing that I feel confident in. I have no doubt that this layout is going to be fun to shoot. And even in upper play field, Keith isn't an upper play field guy, but that upper play field only has three shots. You have a target, and the ball's gone, or you hit another horizontal spinner, and the ball's going to kick out to one side, or you hit another ramp and the ball kicks out another way. That's it. You're up there, or you do nothing. You hit the ramp. It's going to whiz right through it, just like Foo Fighters. So what's more fun? So they're probably the two most popular games. So you have Godzilla, and you have probably Medieval Madness. And Medieval Madness, I mean, majority of that game is hitting the castle.
    39:40
    Yep. So what's more fun? Hitting a castle over and over again and watching it explode? I would say my friends and family, when they step up to a game, if I'm borrowing a new game from Zach and it's just like they want to know, what do I need to do? Really what they're asking is, what do I need to do to experience the coolest mech in this game? That's what a novice player, a non-pinball person wants. They want to step up to the game, experience a mech. And luckily, Godzilla, bash a building, you're going to experience it. And Jaws has that too. You have a boat. Hit the boat. Bring up the shark. Hit the shark. And even like Toy Story 4, you hit the left ramp one time, do kaboom ramp. Boom. That's fun. Like, I agree. I'm a fan of mechs in that way. I would hope that every game has a mech that a novice player can enjoy or experience in a relatively easy to achieve manner. And that's why I think Monster Bash is super appealing because of how many cool mechs there are in that game. Or Cactus Canyon. Like he was talking late 80s, early 90s. There's a lot of that out there. But I'm just telling you, I think Jaws is going to be so much more than that. and has the potential to be, I was saying earlier, yeah, but I, I have, I have faith that the layout is going to be enjoyable, but I also, I have faith that Elwin is going to make a fun rule set here, a fun, like, he's proven that. Iron Maiden, incredible rule set. Jurassic Park, incredible. Godzilla, incredible. Like, there's no way this, like, those are the things that I'm, I'm surprised people aren't comfortable understanding or like he also has somebody new on his team that is sharp elizabeth yeah i can't pronounce the last name he's kersky but either way she has a high end pinball iq i don't think people realize it so that right there that's enough as well but i i don't know i think so the weird part with all this guys is that i'm surprised by the amount of people in 2024 that still very much expect pinball to be just as if it was in the early 90s. And they're still stuck in that era. And they think, okay, that type of pinball machine still needs to exist today. When maybe one of the big reasons why it was successful for its era is because it released in its era. It made sense for that time. And that doesn't mean it's not a great pinball machine, right? Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, fun pins, Twilight Zone, fun pin. So Cactus Canyon, fun pin. But a lot of these are products of their eras as well. So imagine, imagine if Medieval Madness came out today and nobody else has ever seen it. Nobody else knew it existed. And it's up against Godzilla. It's up against Jurassic Park. It's up against Foo Fighters. it's up against all that. I don't think it would be near as popular just because you're looking at the themes, you're looking at unique combo shots that have been done since then. Yeah. I mean, there's big reasons and that's not to take anything away. It's perfectly okay for something. I mean, it's like that across every industry, whether it's movies, TV shows, toys, whatever, a lot of things are products of their era. So I think now if you look at everybody that's putting out games. No, they've tried putting out games again to where there's a bash toy up the middle. It's called Stranger Things. They did that. And what? It had one run early on, early 2020. Late 2019, early 2020. They brought it back for a little while, but it's not like it's crushing sales non-stop to where everybody's like, oh, this is the design we all need to go back to. It's fun for what it is, but simply put, guys, It just, long term, in 2024, it doesn't move a ton of units. Those type of designs, they just don't. I mean, what's everybody asking Brian Eddy for out of his next design? Are they asking for a brand layout? Yeah. They're asking for a shadow-esque layout. So what are we talking about here? I just think people forget that. They memory hole it, and they revert back. It's like all of us, we're just all chimps hitting our computers and everything, just trying to figure out this world, and I think it's just people just forget that part. Truly, though, the true answer is what we talked about at the beginning of this, and maybe it's time to move on. But it's just there was never time to move on. The true answer is. We're talking about this for the next three hours. We're talking about Jaws, Joel. The true answer is people hear Jaws, and they immediately are like, they're envisioning that in their head. What's that going to look like? And they all assume you're going to hit a shark in the mouth with a ball. They all just assume that, and the fact that that one thing isn't there makes them apparently question the entire design. And that's, I'm looking right now, like, I'm looking at Stern's page, so Jaws apparently doesn't have the mech that people want. Venom, like, I enjoy, there's things about Venom I really enjoy, but there's no, there's no go to, like, when a novice player stepped up to Venom, there was nothing I could tell them that was going to excite them, where, like, hit this. They're just, it's not there. Foo Fighters, like, there's no, when you think of Foo Fighters, there was no mech that popped into your head, but they went alien theme. You got a really cool Overlord and a fun upper playfield. That's it. Bond, you got the rocket that people complained about. You got Bond on a wand, and we're told that wands are, like, great mechs that everybody wants. So, by that logic, Bond should have just did gangbusters from day one. Yep. So, Bond is that. Rush, you have the time machine, which some people say is just copy-paste from Lord of the Rings. But that's like through those people.
    45:44
    And people don't realize it. Rush has a ton of mechs. With the diverter and the fork and everything. But now we're talking about, like, I understand the term mech could mean flippers, could mean drop targets, could mean a fork, a diverter, a this or that. People just want to see a plastic toy, a compound, something, let go of it. They want to see a unique sculpt with some sort of mechanical feature that they haven't seen before. Mando didn't have it. We don't have Travis anymore. Travis's camera is gone. Really, the last standout mech, I think, is Godzilla. And I honestly, I think, between the building, the bridge, the mecha Godzilla turning, And the unique Magna Grab, that is something I think Godzilla was kind of one of the last games in the last few years that really had standout mechs. But yeah, it's unfortunate that Jaws, and Tom's brought it up twice, this moving fin I think is the standout mech. the fact that the area around the fin is plastic so they have really unique lighting effects, blood in the water lighting effects, like that is going to be the thing. Now, somebody on Facebook said that they didn't understand the concept of the moving fin.
    47:04
    And I was just like, I'm like. Like in what way? I don't know. just they don't they don't comprehend that it starts underwater in the playfield the water hit the captive ball throw the blood in the water that's the chum so you're getting the red around that fin yeah and you you uh you shoot that shot for your harpoon the fin comes out you shoot the shark it's like in the movie it's on yeah there's artwork on the playfield i'm looking at right now. It's like, I don't get it. I don't get how you don't visualize that. It's seriously because a lot of people, Tom, and this is just how it is. And I see this all the time. Even people that are part of Facebook groups on Penn side own 20 plus pens. The extent of their knowledge and what they know doesn't go very far into what you can actually see or what you're capable of seeing in a pinball machine. And that's not necessarily, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It just means that's the choice that they've made to go that far with it, to where they're more concerned about something needs to be a 3D sculpt or something needs to just be modded out like crazy or it needs some type of speaker light on it. That's the way that they look at the hobby. Because I've known LE buyers too that will buy something specifically for the art and it just sits there. It never gets played. at all. Like Tom. Tom doesn't play spin. Oh yeah, Tom, yeah, of course. He just does it for the flex. But yeah, it's crazy too, though, because we saw the same thing happen with Rush, to where people just will not look at the play field and they won't read what the inserts say. It gives you all the information on there that you need. Now, of course, it could be better in some instances, just like we talked about Venom, for instance. You know, after you get to a certain part, there's combos in there that you're not aware of until you actually start it. So, yeah, there's always going to be deep cuts, but I think that's just a large part. Well, and this was the same artist who did Rush, too.
    49:17
    And I think the play field, their artwork looks great. Yeah. I think the reality is there are people that buy pinball that they are so focused on a three-minute experience. Like, they just want to see the thing, and that's enough. but the reality, like the truth is that designers have to design for a three minute experience and a 30 plus minute experience and trying to keep a game entertaining. I mean, you brought up medieval madness people, you know, after you destroy that castle, maybe twice in a game, people are at that point. It's like, what am I doing? Am I just grinding at this point? And, and that's, that's trying to, you know, and sure. If you have enough mechs in a game where you can kind of, that's what I like about Godzilla, where it's, I'm going to focus on building and now I'm in bridge, multi-ball op I'm in mecca it's like you're focusing on different aspects of the of the game and some of the older games whether it's cactus canyon or monster bash or uh toadin you know like there's so many mechs in the game where you can kind of get distracted or move around and what are you focusing on any moment but I don't know I just I think there are a lot of people there that they're just so focused on what is the thing and my fear is you're going to get that game you're going to get it in your game room you're going to hit the shark in the mouth and then what like if If that's enough for you, then okay. But, you know, I'm glad that Elwin – Pinball would be very boring. Pinball would get very boring very quick if all the manufacturers want to do is just one mech, and then that's it, and you get your wow factor for five plays. It takes you 30 seconds to do it or one minute. Then what? The games are so much more than that. So I want to go ahead and transition to streaming. And what I mean by streaming is we've had two reveal streams recently that we can talk about, and their similarities and their differences. So, one, I think it's really cool that Stern, they did their trailers, they had some behind-the-scenes video or, like, a bigger video. But then a few days later, they had a prerecorded stream of Keith Elwin playing the game and explaining the game. It was 16 minutes, and it showed, I think it was like two multi-balls, how to start a mode, like showed a few other things. Like it showed enough to give you a good idea of what the overall concept is of the game, as well as trying to show you some of the shots.
    51:46
    Well, we'll just start with that. Tom, what was your initial takeaway when you finished, 16 minutes are up, finished it, what were your first, your initial thoughts of that stream? I thought it was well done. It explained the concepts of the game really well. I felt like it was partially a tutorial on the game, partially just showing it off kind of thing.
    52:13
    I mean, those were my thoughts. I thought it was really well done as far as showing off the game. And that's had you locked in your Ellie purchase before that stream. After when did that happen? No, it was more after the stream, I guess. I, well, the stream helped. No, I, I, I, I, no, I had said I was going to get Nellie, um, once the pictures came out, but the, the actual gameplay videos solidified a Forby. Sure. What about you, Travis? So which part are we talking about here? Like how the screen was revealed or the actual gameplay? Just your initial 16 minutes are done. You know, you had a thought afterwards of like, it's over. What was your headspace at that point? Well, so, yeah, the gameplay was what I expected it would be, just because we've already seen pictures of the play field, and we were already aware of, okay, here's what the shot geometry is going to be like, and we could kind of figure out what some of the modes would be like just by reading the inserts. So, yeah, that was, it went as expected. I would say on the actual rebuild portion, like, I don't know. I don't know if it necessarily put the game in the best light. Okay. And that's no fault of Elwin's because he's just playing the game. He's been asked to show it off the best he can. Well, how do you best show off a game after the gameplay? And you do that in the post-edit. And you do that by making it to where whatever somebody that I guess you could say, quote unquote, the actor or the subject, you have to be able to support what they're talking about also with additional information. So I could see how some people, if they didn't know necessarily what, like for Tom and I, of course, we could watch that video and we understand what's going on. Because we have a foundation and a concept of other pins, of years and years of other designs of the rule sets. For somebody that's brand new that's trying to figure out what they're seeing, if it's not just smack dab right in front of their face in plain English, sometimes it's hard to understand. So you're talking about like arrows or graphics or text? Right, exactly. Yep, yep. Just supporting what, whoever's talking, supporting what they're saying, because it's not a live broadcast. That's a little bit different if it's totally live. Do you think it was rushed out kind of thing Yeah I don know I don know if it was rushed out or the reason why they went about it that way but I just know I think it would have done it some good to have a little bit more editing with it to say, hey, you know, since Keith is pointing in this direction, let's highlight that on the play field, and then let's also have a little explainer here. And somebody definitely, they did an edit on it because there was a couple of jumps in the middle of it to where it was obvious that there was gameplay missing at some point because you saw the scores jump and you kind of saw the thought process mixed in too. Like something had already happened, but we're not quite sure what it was. And that's fine. You have different cuts and stuff like that. That's just what I would like to see. If there is a gameplay video explaining stuff, I would like to see a lot of things explained. It's almost like the attract tutorial that you see on all these pins that Carl does. that's excellent to where you see the arrows pointing in certain directions, you know, something like that, because a lot of people are watching this for the very first time and they're trying to get an idea of what do the shots do? What does, you know, this, this light, if that's lit, what does that do? You know, it's just, I don't know. It's already hard enough with pinball, the barriers that are up for people to truly understand what's going on. So you want to make it as easy on people as possible. So if I had any critique, that would be it. That I think the game could have been put in a much better light for sure from the get-go, especially with all the leaks that have happened with the opinions coming out from after the game was at CES, which we talked about a little bit there because there's even been videos out talking about how the games were set up, difficult in their eyes, and I don't know. And I don't know if the games are set up super difficult to begin with because it looked like everything was set to default. So who knows on that? It's just, you know, I think that there's just various ways that they could go about this that would be a lot more beneficial to the product overall, if that makes sense. So I get what you're saying. And so what do we have to compare this to? We have previously, most of the time, it's a Jack Danger, Dead Flip, Reveal Stream. and as somebody I have never done a reveal stream but I know like when I borrowed Labyrinth with Barrels of Fun our stream was one of the first if not like the first kind of professional well not I know Bowen did his and Wormhole so we were one of the first but I remember the pressure that I felt where it's like I really want I genuinely want to show this game in a good light because My brother and I, if you've watched the stream, you know our skill level. If we're missing shots, and I remember, I think it was Carl. Carl messaged me and he goes, all right, Joel, I need you to be honest. Is Labyrinth hard, or is it you, or is it the layout?
    57:45
    There's pressure there. I want to show off the game in a good light, and I know my skill level could limit that in one way or the other. Keith is doing his thing. It's almost like his skill level is the other direction. You know, Barrels of Fun or Labyrinth, Bowen did their initial reveal. Bowen's skill level is so high that it's like, are we giving an accurate representation of what this game is? Because just because you're ripping combos doesn't mean that everybody else is going to be able to rip that combo. So they're in a live type situation.
    58:16
    You know, all I can do is just play it and I'm going to be as authentic and genuine as possible because there's nothing else I can do. And I hope to show the game in a good light. and honestly it's not like I'm faking it if we're having fun even if we're bricking shots or it's even that much more rewarding when we finally beat a mode because and then hopefully over the course of streaming that if you tune in for the second stream or the third stream we just streamed Alien. First stream Alien we had a great time. We never progressed very far in the game. My last stream of Alien I almost beat the game. Like I was two modes away from beating the game so people get better. So is there a perfect way to reveal a pin especially if it's live? I don't necessarily know that. If you do that with Jack Danger, though, you're going to get the energy. You're going to get the hype that Jack Danger brings to the table. Sure, Keith Owen's not a hype man. That's not his role, and I don't want him to fake it. I don't want him to be looking at the camera, hey, guys. It's just like I'm glad Keith is being Keith, but if you know Keith at all, you know he was enjoying his experience. He was having fun with that, and his goal in that video is just to show, he wants to show there's this mode, there's this mode. Luckily, it doesn't look linear. What do you want to do? Do you want to close beaches? Do you want to focus on shark attacks? Do you want to be doing this? Do you want to be doing that? You know, it's giving me that Godzilla vibe of here's eight different directions you can go at any moment. What do you want to do? I'm going to let you do it. So I really like it. I get what you're saying. I know Zach took one of my Venom streams, pulled out one of my games from it, and did exactly what you're saying, Travis, of adding arrows, adding circles. It helps. And Cern, I think, shared that video. Like, it does help communicate. So I like what they did. I agree with you. I think they could go one step further, add in a few graphics, add in it, and they could really take it to the next level. Yeah, I personally think, and I've said this for years now on previous podcasts and everything, the best way to show a game off early on is through a controlled edit. It can be a full gameplay, but then control the edit afterwards. I think showing a game for the first time just with live gameplay, you're kind of playing with fire right there because there's a lot of variables that happen that you can't necessarily control. Like if a mech fails, if the game's not set up properly, there's a lot of things that could go wrong with that. And there is a lot of pressure that comes on making the game look fun in general. So I think you could have the most stoic person ever play the game and you can make it look fun still in post. You know, you don't necessarily need the Jersey Jack dad, like, pumping his fists like he did in Toy Story or anything like that, but you can show ways of that. So, yeah, it's just, I don't know. I mean, I will always feel that way, that having an edited video to reveal a game would probably be the most efficient thing, but I understand why people choose to show off live gameplay, you know, at the very first and early on. I get it. one-two punch makes sense. You do the reveal trailer. I think Jersey Jack did it. I think with Toy Story as well as Elton John, it's like, then you do an edited gameplay video. And then within a day or two, you have a live stream. And that's what we got. We still do the live stream. Yeah. We have a live stream coming. It was supposed to be today. Apparently it's gotten moved back to Monday. And I'm looking forward to that live stream. And then obviously if you're on the fence of whether or not you're going to buy this, wait a few weeks. I know I should get one. We all be streaming on Flippin' Out. Other people will be streaming it. There's going to be plenty of ways to consume that info, but I mentioned two streams. So that was the Elwynn stream, and maybe we're hanging a big turn here, but Looney Tunes. There was a Looney Tunes stream recently that Bug put out, and it was a similar thing. I don't think it was a live stream. I think it was a recorded stream showing off the game. So similar things. We'll start with Travis this time. When you came away from watching that video, what were your thoughts? I won't lie. I made it just a couple of minutes into it, and then I just couldn't watch it anymore. I'm not a huge Looney Tunes fan, so hearing the sound effects and all that. And now the Texas Chainsaw Massacre one, which I'm not really big on that theme at all. I watched the full thing through because I was very curious. But with this particular thing, I feel like I've already seen the layout and everything. So now I'm not necessarily trying to figure out where the shot's at. I'm just trying to figure out, okay, what are the potential modes here and everything. But I got to get past the sound effects of Looney Tunes. I'm not saying they're bad because they're obviously on theme, on brand. I'm just not a Looney Tunes guy. So, you know, plus we don't sell Spooky either. So I have really no reason to deep dive down into that. But I probably should for the podcast, shouldn't I? So you only speak positively of games you sell, right? I mean, that's what pinball media does, right? Oh, yeah. Naturally, yeah. Venom, best game in the history of history. Fighters today. Yeah, it's like anything else. No game is absent of critique. Every game should get some sort of criticism because things need to get better. You know, what I can say about the Looney Tunes layout, I am impressed by the layout. I think what Spooky has done here is it has my attention a lot more than any other design that they've put out before. I mean, it is miles better than what Halloween and Ultraman were, and it's way better than what Scooby looks like. So, you know, I still want to see this pin. I still want to play it. I would still, if I saw Looney Tunes in person, I'd go play it. You just don't want to hear it. No, I agree. I watched Looney Tunes. Well, I'll let Tom go. So, Tom, what did you – the Looney Tunes stream, what were your takeaways? I thought it was fine for what it was.
    64:17
    The sounds didn't really bug me, I guess, because I do like the Looney Tunes theme. A lot of what I saw, though, was a lot of stacking and, like, growing up score.
    64:34
    Yeah. And for a company that doesn't promote the tournament scene, I thought there was a lot of scoring going on. But, yeah, I also thought there was a lot of orange. I think Luke Nahorniak would love this pen.
    64:53
    It is a lot of orange, and I think part of it is the powder-coated ramps. I think there's something visually. I think I like stainless steel. I just want to see gray ramp. I don't want to see colored. It's too colored. It's too much color. But I see, yeah. Sorry, I just wanted to hear it. I mean, there's a lot of stacking going on, too. I mean, Bug alluded to you could stack up the three multiballs and a mode at the same time, which I was like, wow, that's a lot. That's a lot of stacking. I agree. And I'm no pinball expert like you guys are, but I've played enough now to realize I don't want to stack multiball ever. I don't want to do it. Normally it's a, because I'm not typically the point chaser, I'm using a multiball to progress. So if all of a sudden I'm stacking multiballs, I feel like I'm wasting that security that I could be saving that multiball for another mode. And that's something where, I mean, there's plenty of examples of that, but like Godzilla, it's like, okay, I'm real close to building, so let me get into a battle. Let me start that. Okay, I'm out of that. well cool bridge is almost ready to go let me do that like i want to ensure some of the modes are unique in a way but but yeah the idea of stacking three multiballs that's not exciting to me because i feel like another thing you run into is now you have three light shows going on that have to somehow work together you have graphics and animation and call outs for three different multiballs that are all going on at the same time i just feel like that experience is going to be a mess and that's what I think people complain about with JJP the fact that a lot of JJP games you can stack multi balls it can be you can very easily get to a point in a Jersey Jack game where you have no idea what's going on and it's a and that's where you get the toy story shoot everything call out because you genuinely just shoot everything Travis his hand is up Travis has something to say. I just want to point out, and Tom will laugh because I'm sure he's hearing this right now, Joel is thinking like a tournament player right now. He doesn't want to put everything together at once. He wants to hold something back to help him progress further through the game. And that's, yeah. I mean, that comes right down to it. Yeah. You proud, Papa? Are you proud? Yeah. And there's a reason why other games, they don't have every single multiball just stacked together endlessly. Like, other things lock you out. And that's for good reason and for the reasons that you put. Because, one, the LCD just becomes a mishmash of just everything. And things get confusing out in the play field. The GI tends to, like, blend in together at that point. And you've got to really, really focus in on what progression you have. Otherwise, you're just spamming everything and just hoping that you hit something. So, yeah, I could see how that could be a potential issue. But did the modes at least look fun overall, like the way that those worked? I think so. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm looking forward to playing the game. I think it can be a fun game or should be a fun game. The layout is definitely very intriguing. Watching both the Texas Chambers Hall Massacre stream and the Looney Tunes, the way that, I mean, Bugs played the heck out of this game. There's no denying that. The way that he is comboing shots and, you know, every single ramp feeds another flipper, so it very much helps you keep the ball moving and going around in a very unique way. That all looks very fun. I mean, that kind of goes back to what we were saying with Jaws and the unique flow and comboing of the game that people apparently just don't see on a reveal trailer. But, yes, I mean, he even said it in the video that he's like, oh, yeah, we can stack three multiballs together in a mode so we can really blow this up. But there's some risk and reward there because when we come out of it, we're going to have to rebuild up all three multiballs. And that's never a fun feeling. That's never a fun feeling when you are miles away from starting multiple different multiballs because then you just kind of feel like you're in jail. Yeah, you're in jail. You're in jail. You're just going through the motions to try to move towards the next potential thing. And I think some of the best games out there do a really good job of spacing things out in a way where you always feel like you're one step away from something else. And that's very useful. You want as many features close to the start button as possible. And you want it there consistently. Even when you're coming out of modes or you're finishing something up, just like you said, you want the next thing to do in the game to be very accessible. Otherwise, yeah, when you turn it into just a pure wood chop, that's what drives players away. Speaking of accessible, I think the add-a-ball feature is the shot under the flipper. The lower right flipper? Yeah. So, I mean, to me, those are difficult shots sometimes. I saw him hit it multiple times. I guess you're going to have to earn it. Yeah. Looking at the layout, that's what excites me about it, is that it doesn't look like an easy layout. It does not at all. It just doesn't. Yeah. Even though Bug makes it look easy, but he's a really good player. I think I've said that before. He is definitely a good player. And I know, Travis, you and I have talked about this off the podcast. we think this game is going to be very tough for, you know, casual players. Oh, yeah. Casuals will get absolutely destroyed on it. It's coming. But that's okay, though, because even if they have it in their house, put the rubber bands on the outlings, put the ball save all the way up, get the banana flippers out, you'll be just fine. Yeah. It'll be good. Banana flippers. That's nice. Yeah.
    70:51
    Yeah. I mean, I'm excited. I'm excited about that. I was just trying to think ahead on, I think, Super Awesome Pinball Show. They had some guests. I'm trying to think. I mean, right now, here we are at the beginning of 2024. Obviously, Jaws just came out. I think I heard something about American Pinball. They're trying to get a game out, another game. Like, GTF, I feel like, is kind of come and gone at this point. Nobody, I don't really know anybody that has it. The hype on that's really died down.
    71:21
    Wasn't it, like, best-in-show at Expo? Yeah, Expo, yeah. So I'm thinking hopefully American Pinball is coming out with something else sometime soon. Obviously, Stern just showed Jaws. Jersey Jack. I mean, Elton John, I'm not really seeing. I don't know how many people have got their games yet. So I hope the hype is still there on that game. I had a ton of fun with that game when it was here. Genuinely had a ton of fun with that game when it was here.
    71:46
    Was there a mech that I was dying over? No, but, like, the shots were a lot of fun. and trying to build up the Superstar jackpot or whatever where you have to do the piano multi-ball is really cool. The Rocketman, like, I had a lot of fun with that game.
    72:03
    Barrels of Fun is chugging away on Labyrinth. I would assume they're going to announce. I thought I heard it was super awesome that their plan is to announce a new game every year. So does that mean before the end of the year we'll have the second Barrels of Fun game? Hopefully.
    72:18
    I know P3, they were kind of on hold. Hopefully they'll have something new to announce sometime soon. And CGC, they better not announce anything until they start making some Pulp Fictions.
    72:29
    Oh, that kind of leads to this. I think Josh said recently that they were pretty much starting the line for Pulp Fiction. Good.
    72:41
    So CGC, they do remakes or they have done remakes. Pedretti Gaming, right? Pedretti Gaming has been said that they now have the ability to make remakes. I'm excited about that because I know I really enjoy some of these older games, just even though, you know, we said it in a negative way at the beginning, going back to late 80s, early 90s. But I enjoy that type of game. I do, as long as it can keep me entertained with the code. So I'm excited to see what that is. I recently had a Pinball Brothers game. So Pinball Brothers and Pedretti Gaming kind of have a thing, right? Isn't it Pinball Brothers, like, designs the game and Pedretti Gaming makes it? or I don't, they have some relationship, right? Let's go with that. Something like that. So Alien was here in the house. My real quick takes on Alien. I actually had a ton of fun with the game. It was a lot of fun. The theme immersion was great. The sound package was incredible. The layout is good. It's not amazing. It's good. The upper flipper ramp shot to lock a ball is extremely frustrating. And it's not because the shot is hard. It's to feed the shot is hard. that's what I just feel like if you're going to put an upper flipper in a game and make a critical shot off of it you got to give the ability to feed that flipper easily and there's only two ways you feed that flipper really and it's hoping it feeds it through the pops or you have to hit it with another flipper shot so you have to hit a shot to the left to feed the lower left flipper and then you have to hit that shot to feed the upper right flipper and then you can now have another shot it's just I struggle with that but But overall, I had way more fun with the game than I initially expected.
    74:26
    So if you have, like, a lineup of a lot of sterns, it is a cool – it is a really enjoyable change of pace. My only negative thing, I would say, is the build quality. I wasn't – it is, like, firm. It's a well – it feels like a built – like a well-built game. But I will say, there were three connectors on the game in three different areas that weren't even plugged in. so you know I immediately out of the gate had issues with the ball trough get on there wasn't plugged in like it would just you know stuff like that and it wasn't until the second time I streamed it that I realized my right spinner wasn't working pull it look under the game it wasn't plugged in you know it's just simple things like that hopefully they were they molex connectors they're molex connectors I mean they have uh very unique and well-built like pcbs unique PCBs underneath. So it was super easy. I was like, here's the switch for the switch. At least you just had to plug it in. There's the connector. It wasn't something completely missing. And I'm like, there's two header pins. And it says, right spinner. Plugged it in. Boom, working. So it's, you know, stuff like that. Plus, it's just the familiarity of the system. Like the computer and the display are one unit. Like the screen are one unit in the back box, which I, as somebody that streams, there was no way for me to direct capture it. It's just not possible. So it's just little things like that that if they're going to be doing remakes, I'm very curious to see. Like, I really hope their build quality is as good or close to CGC's because that's really what sets CGC apart is not only they're adding light show, adding they've redesigned mechs to make them stronger, better, whatever, bigger display. but the build quality is always so high that when you buy a remake, you feel like you genuinely are getting the best version of the game. I hope that Pedretti Gaming does that with whatever remakes are coming.
    76:20
    You and I both, buddy. You and I both. We're talking about quality. Camera's gone. I mean, too. It's like I think Kerry, he even came out with a video talking about how he came out with a video saying how he has an NDA from Pedretti. Good. So talking about how I guess he has access to games, all this and that, but then he put it out in the public that apparently these games are going to be at TPF. That's exciting. That is exciting. Let's hope we get there. Yep. So you said Kerry, and I like Kerry Hardy. I'm a fan of Kerry Hardy. Actually, he was on Flippin' Out with Friends when we were talking about Jaws the other week. I'm a big fan of Kerry Hardy. But I know he put out a video about Jaws, and I know one thing with this, agree with is he was talking about the shot to the upper play field and it's just like okay if keith ellen designer of the game world-renowned pinball player extremely good pinball player hits that shot and the ball comes back down you know people are like shots broken shots it's got to be a poorly designed shot and i just like i did it i re-watched the elwyn video before we came on, and he made that shot like seven times in the beginning of the video, and he missed it probably three times. It's broken, Tom. I mean, whoa. It's got to be 10 for 10, Tom. You know, you miss your shots sometimes. I mean, even Elwin misses shots. So my thought there is it's a ramp, okay? So the hardest shot on Foo Fighters, in my opinion, is the right ramp. And guess what? The right ramp is what feeds the upper play field. So it's the hardest shot in the game, and that's what I found frustrating, was it was the hardest shot in the game, so even when I play a premium, I don't feel like I'm up on the upper play field, much because it's the hardest shot in the game. L1 put the shot in the middle of the play field. This should be a relatively easy-to-hit shot, but you have to hit it clean. You know, Godzilla, the back left ramp, if you don't hit that clean, It's not going to have enough power to do what it needs to do to 180 and work its way all the way around. You're going to have to hit it clean, and that's fine because guess what? Luckily, it's not like if he doesn't hit it, it doesn't go straight down the middle or something. Like, you can recover from that.
    78:40
    And what's the other option? The other option is he makes that a Vuck, a vertical up kick. For anybody that's heard Vuck, and what are they talking about? Vertical up kicker. What would that mean then? It would register almost 100% of the time, but now the ball has stopped. It has registered in that little saucer. It's kicked up with no momentum, and now that ball is just dribbling out on the upper play field. There's plenty of upper play fields out there like that. Simpsons Pinball Party is probably a perfect example of that. Not only does it slow down the ball, that ball has no speed now on the upper play field. Like, nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. Yeah, the whole thing was just weird because we were at InDisc at the time, Tom and I were, and that's when I got messages about the game in general and just, you know, what's going on, what's happening. And throughout the week, I had, you know, I really didn't know what was going on with it. And I had watched the gameplay video, the reveal, and I didn't come off at all thinking, oh, that left shot's rejecting or, oh, it's, you know, it's not a smooth shot. Like, I just saw Keith just flat out miss a couple of shots because he hit it off the chum bucket and hit off another shot, which just took all the momentum down. And then all of a sudden, next thing I know, I'm hearing people saying, yeah, the ramp's rejecting going up to the upper play field. It's just a rattle shot, this and that. I'm just like, is there another video out that I'm unaware of? So that's when I started paying more attention. And, yeah, it's funny. Like, I carry stuff. It entertains me. I watch every now and again when I have time. But even the example he gave, when you look at it, you can see the ball just bouncing around at the front. And, you know, that's not because the shots broke or anything. Like Keith is human. He just flat out missed the shot. And, yeah, it's just it's weird because I've heard other commentators saying, you know, oh, yeah, I had a really hard time with the shot. I couldn't get up the ramp, this and that. And I'm just thinking to myself, did you hit it clean? because another commentator I listened to that's a casual was talking about how they couldn't even backhand that ramp.
    80:49
    And I'm just like, in what world are you supposed to be able to backhand that shot? Because if you look at the geometry of it on a pro, you're going to have to need like freaking, what is that, precision flippers times 1,000 if you're going to backhand that shot. So what's the other side of that, right? So I know Halloween. I one of my biggest Probably the biggest gripe I've had with Halloween is the fact that I can I think I've only been to the upper place There's three of them I've only been to the upper Playfield like one or two times and it's because The ramp dead center Rejected so many times like That is no offense to bugger Or Luke but it's like I just Think it's kind of that is a broken or A poorly designed well right like You want to go up to that example Of a ramp that rejects it's the right ramp on Led Zeppelin. For a lot of people in the pro versions, you know, it just would go up there and come right back down. You could even hit that sucker and that happens sometimes just because of the speed of the ball going up there. And there's plenty of examples. I mean, Captain America ramp or Captain Marvel ramp on Avengers people. But I get it that people are like this is an upper play field. This should be something that people do or should be able to hit. So what I was saying is the example of that then is Scooby Scooby dead center You can hit that But what the issue with Scooby is people are up on the upper play field all day because that shot is dead center. It's a safe shot. And sure, you don't have to hold the bookcase up. It can just become a feed to the left flipper. That's fine. I'm glad they have that. But now all of a sudden you've made your upper play field somewhere that people want to live on all day. And that's what I like about the upper play field on this is you can't. You cannot stay up there long. If you hit your target, the ball is coming down, and it's going to trickle down the bottom. Otherwise, your two other shots feed off of the upper play field. So it's going to be a quick experience regardless of what you do, but I just think it's funny that people are so focused on that, that it's a ramp. If you don't hit the ramp clean, it will come back. That's every pinball machine. That right there, you just gave a great example of why this upper play field is a little bit different. The fact that you're not going to be up there long, and there's three separate exits out of it that provide three different types of shots afterwards. You know, most upper ramps that we see, there's one way in, one way out, sometimes two ways out. I think Foo Fighters, the last one that had an upper play field for Stern, I think, what, there was one way out, and then it just came back to the right flipper. which is fine. Different designs are like that. That's just how it is. But that part I can't appreciate because I'm not a huge fan of upper play fields, but if there is going to be one, I don't want to be up there long. And I want to have multiple exits that lead to other shots. That's what I like to see. Well, maybe this then just leads to kind of a bigger thought,
    83:50
    which is just the overall negativity. We are pinball commentators, right? Like the three of us, we are passionate about this hobby. We enjoy it, but I want to make sure I'm enjoying the hobby. I want to make sure I'm excited about what's coming out. I want to make sure that I'm, and I'm not forcing myself to feel that way. It's just like, when I look at a trailer, I'm, I'm, I'm looking for the things that I'm excited about. I'm not, I'm not nitpicking. I'm not sitting here telling the designer they, they, they, they done messed up. They should have done this, you know, or like, how could they, or like, I get it that maybe if you're a Jaws, if Jaws is a dream team for you and you see a ramp reject, now all of a sudden you have that little bit of doubt of like, wait, is this going to be a clunk fest? Is this going to be this? But don't dwell on that. Just be patient. Wait for another stream so you can see more people play it of different skill levels. Wait till TPF or your local bar gets one so you can play it in person. Wait until you actually play it. Yes. And I just, I'm amazed at the amount of commentary, where it's podcasts, YouTube, whatever it is, where people are just have zero hesitation to just bash, just bash what they're seeing. And well, you get you get clicks. I mean, that's, you know, the content on YouTube. A lot of it you see that's that's how it goes across all all industries, all hobbies. I think I think the reality is of the situation is that nothing is above criticism. I think that's healthy for the industry. I think giving your true feedback is always going to be healthy. If you want to see a mech eat a ball, then yeah, of course. Like voice that, do whatever you want with it, complain about it, critique it, analyze it. That's perfectly fine. You know, I don't think everything needs to be sunshine and rainbows all the time. I know that I approach it a little bit different because obviously I do work in the industry. but part of my job is also to look at a pen and say, okay, what are the negatives of this product? And how is that going to create a barrier for the end user? Like what, what is that going to prevent them from coming over? So I'm definitely not blind to it. I have to know about those things. I have to think about those things all the time, but I think it comes into that. Like you said, it's, it's awfully hard to come to a final decision on how a game is until you experience it the same way I just talked about Looney Tunes earlier. I didn't finish watching the video. Why? Because the sounds were bugging me. Like, that's just the fact. But I did say, hey, the design looks great. I want to play it still, like before I make any type of final judgment on it. And that's just, yeah, that's just reality. I think it just comes down to just first impressions. And everybody is well on their way to have first impressions. I think it's just, it comes down to just, there's a lot of egos in this industry. a lot. And that doesn't, you know, it could be on this side of it, the creators and everybody that makes the pinball machines and makes the content and does all that. And that could be the people that are just commenting on Facebook and pin side. Everybody has an ego. So a lot of times, yeah, it's one of those things like make the funny bash posts that you can to get a like or to comment like that. You know, that's just part of it. But I agree. It seems to be going a weird direction this past year. Like a very, very weird direction to where if something's not 100% exact, it's like the whole thing just goes to shit. I just think... I don't know what it is. As a creator, all three of us create media in this. And we all... And it doesn't matter...
    87:35
    Like, luckily, there are people that enjoy what we do. And it's awesome to hear, whether it's an email, a Facebook message, somebody talks to you in person like, hey, I really enjoy X, Y, and Z. and positive feedback is awesome. It's great. But it's the negative comments that are the ones that stand out. And it's the negative ones that, that hurt in my opinion, where it's just like, okay. And, and that's where I feel bad where it's like, Jaws comes out. Like, is it hurting you? Or are you talking about just hurt like the industry? I think if it's about content that I've made, yes, it hurts me. But what I'm saying is if I was part of the Jaws design team and you open up pin side and you open up the hype thread or whatever, and you've had just page after page after page of negativity, it's just one of the, like, I just, I feel bad for them because it's like none of these people have actually touched the game yet. They haven't played it. I wouldn't worry too much, Joel. I mean, when you get into this industry, for the most part, if you've been around for a while, you have thick skin. You know what to expect.
    88:37
    I know. I just, well, you mentioned Elizabeth. Elizabeth, this is her first game, you know, and I know she's pumped about the code and the modes that they've put into JAWS. And I can only imagine her reading some of these comments on Facebook or whatever and just be like, can we just pause a month and show you guys play it, please? Think of it this way, right? We have people all the time call us three idiots. Well, maybe not Tom, but Joel, you and I, definitely. And that's perfectly fine. And they're right. They're right. Having that opinion is perfectly fine. We've heard from people that said, we can't listen to your podcast because of X, Y, Z. And that's perfectly fine. Does that mean that we go daily worrying about that? No. You know what I mean? So I think with work, it's kind of the same thing. Well. You know, it's just because at the end of the day, yeah, everybody's passionate about pinball, but it's also work. And you're always going to have, if you're out there in the public eye, you're always going to have critique on you. Maybe. Always. Maybe my thought, though, is if we had, we don't. But if there was a forum page on Pinside and you have people post about how much they love Triple Drain, but then you have just the same amount of people also posting why they don't like Triple Drain and why they don't want to listen to Triple Drain. I thought we already had that, though.
    90:01
    Maybe we do, and I'm just not reading it. But those are the things where I'm like, if there are people excited about this game, Why can't we let them be excited? Because there's so many people that want to tell the world why they're not excited, and they want to tell the world why they're not buying the game. And I just don't get those. Like, I just don't see the value in that. I don't, yeah. I don't think anybody doing the critique content, though, is really stopping people from enjoying it necessarily. You know, like I see where you're coming from, though. Tom hasn't had fun in years, okay? Years because of this. I know, you can tell. Because he blows up every game, and he just looks miserable, just like Carl. they're having so much fun like at Indisc right so that's yeah we do time wise forget the time Joel we're going deep we don't need to talk tournament pinball I want to talk about your feelings Joel oh man this is where everybody turns off our podcast anyways yeah right so we don't have to do we can just tell them we're talking about tournaments and we still talk about feelings right now we've gone an hour and a half It really hasn't. What is my bearded teddy bear feeling right now? Like, you just.
    91:10
    It's like us. Okay, like, I'll go real for you guys for a second. Oh, get real, please. Like, we obviously play up that we can't, like, stand each other, we give each other shit, and all this and that. And people for a while. That's what I write in the script, remember? Oh, yeah, yeah. And people took it as, like, absolute truth. Like, oh, my gosh, do you guys not like. You know what I mean? So it's like it's one of those things that you just realize you're in this industry because you genuinely enjoy it. Is there bad days? Yeah, of course there is. Of course there is. But at the same time, it's like in this industry, it is full of people that are creators. It's full of people that are creative, whether that's sound, whether that's software, whether that's design, whether that's content creation. Right. and people want to fulfill that part of them they want to get the content out they want to get the creativity out and for me personally like i can't speak for you guys or anybody else but for me personally i think it's awesome like if somebody wants to like shit on everything i do good on you perfectly fine like it doesn't bother me that's why you married monica right right exactly i hear it every day. I have twin daughters. I hear it all the time. Remember when you told Toy Story? Yeah, exactly. Right. So point being, it's like, I think everybody in this industry, for the most part, there might be some people that are a little sensitive, but you can't be. We can't do this and put our ugly mugs, except for you, Tom. Freaking beauty, you are. But we cannot put our ugly mugs on YouTube without expecting some sort of backlash, some sort of critique like, oh, look at these nerds or all these people don't know what they're doing. You know, that's part of it. That's fair. It's a good thing, though. I think it's healthy for people to disagree. And if somebody wants to just bash on everything and that's what they get their rocks off on and that's like the type of content they want to do or what they want to do on message boards all the time and that's how they fill their time, you know, go for it. That's part of it. But that shark is not eating that damn ball.
    93:30
    Okay. So I think our list was pretty short, but we do have some tournament talk. I haven't left you a ton of time. I feel bad about it. Thanks, Tom. Tom, tournaments. We finally get to talk about it. Go ahead. I'm going to let the two of you guys start in this. Okay. The little bit I'll say is I loved what I was watching. I feel so bad that Carl felt sick, and he wasn't able to do what he did, But honestly, I say this in the best way possible, you didn't know because his production and the way that he designed that, it sounds like Jordan and Becca was with Fliptronic, and I think it was Sonny was the third, but there was somebody else that stepped in. There were like three people. Pluto. There we go. Pluto stepped in. Sonny from Twitch, yeah. No, Pluto, who is a big reason why the stream gets on the front page of Twitch as well. So those three people stepped in, and congrats to them because Carl not only had it all set up and dialed in, but then the three people managed it. Like, you wouldn't know. You wouldn't know that Carl wasn't running in the background. So I would say from an execution standpoint, it was incredibly enjoyable to watch. But that's me as a viewer. The two of you, participants, Indus, go.
    94:40
    We were there? Indus is hard. Yeah, Indus is difficult. Yes. That's our report. Man, you guys. Try it.
    94:51
    Well, let us talk, Joel. I want you to, yeah. No, just that is probably one of the hardest tournaments out there. I mean, you have to be so good and consistent over your ticket.
    95:08
    It's very difficult. I, for one, could not do it. I think I finished 89th out of 300-plus people. uh travis travis did it my son neil did it but uh it just it just goes to show you that there's some really good elite players out there that can can really uh do those things and uh it's an amazing tournament um there's so many volunteers and and people involved that just make that tournament happen. It's just one of the best ones. Honestly.
    95:52
    I assume that or I see that from afar but you guys are there and just judging by the amount of people that come out every year and the quality and the skill level of the people that are willing to play, I think it says a lot about that tournament that it's kind of a must. Well, the location they have it at too. It's a pretty cool location at a big convention center out at Riverside, California. And plus, right there, there's plenty of hotels within walking distance. There's the food lab and game lab. Plenty of things to go do. Plenty of restaurants and everything. So the location is great. And, yeah, obviously the tournament's growing. It wouldn't shock me one bit if they have 400 people next year. Because one of the things about this year, the queues got super long. And when we say queues, we mean basically saying, I'm going to play this game and you're just waiting in line for everybody else to finish playing it before you go up. And that makes it even more difficult because you got to put in five decent games, but you're going to wait 20 minutes, clear up past an hour between each game. So you're constantly, yeah. And you're having to switch eras and everything. So yeah, it's very difficult to play in. But overall, I mean, I don't want to give away who won since you can still go back and watch the streams and all that in case somebody's wanting to watch. But yeah, the finals. Congratulations, Travis. It was really, really a chance. Thank you. And I scored more than zero points this time on all my games. But no, it's a fantastic time. And yeah, we can definitely go back and talk about who won and kind of how that all went down at another time. But yeah, for sure. Indus was great. And then they just announced while we were gone, Pemberg is coming back as well. That's going to be a little bit different. You word little, right? Yeah, a tad bit different. But, no, so that's coming back, and I know more details will come out about that pretty soon. But, yeah, overall, in-disc, very difficult to qualify for. After playing in an IFBA over in Germany, which is a world championship with the top 80 players in the world, I can honestly say I think it's more difficult to qualify in the in-disc than it is the IFBA. Wow. it's a difficult tournament but I still encourage people to come out I mean test it out if you never have really traveled much for tournaments and you are going to travel for one it's a fun one to come to because the games play great everybody from the pinball community is out there you'll meet a lot of cool people and you'll get to see how good you really are because you're playing against most of the best players in the world out there yeah no it's awesome it's awesome I mean, everybody in the pinball community is out there. Joel. Yeah, one day. Joel. I would love to prioritize. The tournament player. Yeah, all the tournament. Yes. Do you know what void and re-queue means?
    98:51
    So isn't it your card you have to – is it five games? So it's your cumulative place or your cumulative score over five games. So if you're on game three and you suck, then you say, I'm done with this ticket. You void it. you pay for a new one, and you start back at one. There was a lot of that going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A plethora. Plethora is a great word. Shout out Three Amigos. Go watch that movie.
    99:19
    It's a sweater. Love that movie. She's going to have a plethora of pinatas? Man, why do they not have a pinball machine for Three Amigos? They could have the sombrero, like, eating the pinball. It'd be awesome. Right, yes. Okay, so the other thing, this is me, the non-tournament guy, trying to, you know, understand or stay on top of tournament news. Obviously, Indisc was huge.
    99:42
    But, so, Tom, you said you came out 89th, right? Yeah. 80-something? So you got, what, like 840 Whoppers for that? Isn't that tough? No. It was a lot. It actually made my card. It was like 44, 42, something like that. So that's the thing I'm reading, right, or seeing is apparently so many Whoppers. If you were at InDisc, you got all the Whoppers. Yeah, you know, it's funny because we've talked about the ranking changes before that were coming in January, which is the Whopper 6.0, which some of us felt targeted by that. There were words of privilege used. The privilege has now changed. The ones who are privileged are no longer privileged. And the people that are going to these world championships, congratulations, you are now the privileged ones.
    100:53
    That is absolutely true. 100%. You all have no idea what we're – No, what I'm – tell me if I'm wrong. But apparently the previous privileged were the people that lived near areas where they could go to huge tournaments all the time. Not necessarily. Or the people that would travel. Yeah. Okay. But now, based off of what I'm seeing, people are saying, like, if you can go to these huge world tournaments, even if you place low, you're getting lots and lots of points. So now you're kind of having to travel. Joel, for 31st, I got 150 points. Put that in perspective for me. So to put that in perspective, I've had, I think, four or five top four finishes in Stern Pro Circuit events, and they were nowhere near that. I think my most points ever was like 230-something last year for the Open, whenever I got third. so yeah it's a lot of points so a whole lot the open is in when you did in disc last year right you got third overall right 200 something points this year you got what and you were 150 for what position for 31st 31st like we're talking about a crash and burn 31st yeah it's crazy what third got this year?
    102:19
    Yeah, I could look and see because our good orange friend Luke Nahorniak got third. Don't spoil. I know, I just screwed it up.
    102:28
    344 points. 344. Yeah, so 100 more. Like 392 was first place. I found this amusing. So, like, there were a lot of people who were contacting me and were like, oh, I didn't go to Indus, so I fell like 40 spots. I know somebody that actually didn't go to Indus, they fell like 16 spots in the overall, but they actually moved up four spots in the pro by not playing at Indus. So it just seems like the whole ranking system right now is just like in this kind of like shark tornado.
    103:13
    Yep. It's like in Jell-O, and it's just like jiggling all over the place, and it's hard to tell. Like I don't even understand the ranking anymore, and I've gotten to where I'm just like, you know, it's whatever. I'm just going to go play in formats and tournaments I think look fun. Well, I know Hottie, our friend Hottie with Frisco Pinball, he was pumped because now he's top 1,000, but he went to Indisc. So he's, yeah, that was something. He's a step ahead of you, Joel. But he didn't place. I remember what he was saying. He's like, I didn't, he didn't place particularly, like he didn't qualify, but though, like he got a ton of offers, essentially just for being there and playing, playing. All right. Um, so he got, uh, so he said, uh, yeah. So he's like, Oh Mike, this is Mike pinballers. He said a friend of his got 21 whoppers and he placed 148 like that. Oh yeah. You could, you could take a hundred, I think it was 162nd and you would get 20 or above. Which in some local tournaments, out of 30, 40 people, you'd have to win it to get that many whoppers.
    104:25
    But hey, it is what it is. I mean, what is it? If you send all complaints to Josh, right, he's ready to voice all of them. Well, it's funny. I'm looking at the results. I can tell some people didn't realize the rule that if you're ranked in the top 250, even if you void, right, you still count. It still counts, yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah, I just noticed that. Our good buddy, Mr. Grant. Rest in peace, efficiency. Yeah. Well, is there anything else? Tournament talk. We're nearing the end of the episode here. Anything else that I don't know? I mean, we have State coming up next weekend. So Tom and I are both going to win that. You know, that's the plan. That's the plan. I got a text from my wife. We're recording this in the afternoon. I got a text from my wife and it says, we need the basement, which means she needs the kids to run around is what I'm, and it's raining outside. Joel, you just don't want to talk about tournaments. That's all it is. Yeah. Do you hear that? Before we start it, guys, I'm good for several hours. I'm all good. I said four. We're at four. We're good. It would have been, but you know, we could have had Tom. We could have had more time. Hey Tom, I just got a call from Monica. she says I got to get off the podcast now oh yeah she's cold and what's the furnace back on apparently we need heat in the house and I got to go start shoveling snow Joel we have to go Tom and I have to go we're not leaving because you have to go the state championships are coming up and that's always an exciting time and competitive pinball, I think, because you get to see how everybody's doing in each state and everybody who wins gets to go to nationals, which is going to be at District 82 pinball again.
    106:17
    Are you both playing then? I'm supposed to be playing in Oklahoma State. Oklahoma? Oklahoma. Supposed to be. We'll see. Don't even worry about it, Joel. He fixed his camera. How did he? Last time. It's a new year. I messed around with it. Every time, Tom, we get in and Travis is like, for whatever reason, my audio is so loud. And it's like he makes the same adjustment every time. It's just Tom thinks I'm being a professional. I need you to be more positive, Joel. I know. Give me a forum. I need positive affirmation coming from you, Joel, or I'm going to start calling you pin side. Yeah. Oh, man. All right. Well, we'll go ahead and plug it up. Travis, you can go first. Yeah, I'm Travis from – is my camera still on? No, it's off. That's what we're saying. It's off. You guys are being serious. Okay.
    107:10
    One second. All right, Tom, you plug. Please. Hi, I'm Tom Graff from this podcast, Triple Dream Pinball Podcast. You can also find me streaming on Twitch and YouTube, Fox Cities Pinball. and if you want to ever find those streams I always announce them on Facebook and Instagram perfect thank you Tom thanks for being here Travis plug away and I'm Travis with Triple Drain Pinball Podcast and also Pinball Company you can find me on YouTube or on this very show which is on TPN Excellent Network and then yeah be sure and watch Twitch this weekend because there will be plenty of I guess tournaments right Yeah, state tournaments, whenever this comes out I say this weekend, like January 20th And 21st, when it comes So if you never watch, get on Twitch You'll find plenty of pinball over there Wonderful, thank you Thanks for turning off your furnace so we could record I really appreciate that, I should be thinking I'm ready So obviously you can check out Here, the Triple Drain Pinball Podcast And then every Wednesday from 10 to midnight Eastern Time, I stream This upcoming Wednesday I'll be streaming this game, don't say it This is just for the video people only. I'll be streaming this game, which Zach just dropped off. It's a new game. Should be fun. New to me, not new to the world, but should be fun. Looking forward to streaming that. And then hopefully we'll have Jaws by the end of the month, so we'll be streaming that on the Flippin' Out YouTube channel. So appreciate you guys. Joel and friends. Oh, yeah, man. Flippin' Out with friends. I'm just happy you were allowed to have that game in your house. You know, it's an interesting use of painter's tape. Yeah, man. I had to throw some painter's tape on there, but it's here. It is here. Yeah, I got quite the eye roll when it came in. I should have asked him. She's like, cover that up. Cover it up.
    109:12
    Good thing my boys are older. Like always, Tom, you get the last words. Uh Ball eating sharks aren't cool