BlahCade Pinball Podcast this is the BlahCade Pinball Podcast i'm your host chris freebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world it's jared morgan hey chris Hey everyone, how are you going? All righty. So, another Fortnite, I guess that's what you call them, two weeks? I don't know, we don't use that term here. Is that what Fortnite is? Two weeks? Yeah, you guys don't use Fortnite? No, we don't use Fortnite at all. Oh. And what do you call Fortnite over in the US? Two weeks from now? No, the game, Fortnite. Oh, we call it Fortnite, but I don't think anybody understands what it actually is referencing. I think they're thinking it's a fort at night I don't know It's a night fort It's a night fort spelled differently just for the sake of it What I mean to say is though Hey it's been two weeks and we're back Yay! Hooray! Because there's things to talk about Yeah a few things to talk about I want to give just a little shout out here Our live broadcast last time which was our gut reaction video to pinball effects, playing it, actually having hands-on with it. We had a lot, our largest viewership number for people live when I premiere these things, and that was a lot of fun. So I encourage everybody, when we do live premieres, funnily enough, I'm not going to be doing that with this episode because it would premiere on Easter, and yeah, nobody's going to watch. That's right. Excluding this particular episode, usually we wind up premiering these things on a Sunday morning and I hop into the chat and we do a live chat along with the video and when you're watching these things on YouTube you can actually turn on the live chat and see what the conversation was going on in real time but we had a lot of good interaction it was a lot of fun so I definitely encourage you if you happen to be available on one of those Sundays that we do these premieres to hop in join in because sometimes I'll have additional things to comment on that weren't actually said in the podcast. Other times there's just some silliness that's going on and just random general questions being asked that have nothing to do with what the podcast is talking about. So, anyway. It's a good time, yes, and I encourage everybody to hop in for that. Another thing, and this was kind of fun, Jared. So, remember how, I don't know, episode or two back, I'd mentioned that hey, if you happen to be in the old Disneyland parks, try and find me. Oh, yeah. than say hello. Guess what happened to me the other day? Did someone find you from the show? Dude, so I had my first week actually working Galaxy's Edge, and I'm there taking photos. Fun? You have to tell us about that. No, it's a blast. It's weird because I don't even feel like I'm in Disneyland. Right, it's that different. Well, because we come in by a different entrance and park in a different place, It's just like, yeah, totally different vibe. Wow, that's cool. Yeah, but so I'm sitting there taking pictures, and this family of four comes up, two little girls and a mom and dad, and the dad looks at me, and then he comes really close and he goes, I know your secret identity. And the first thing that pops into my head is, okay, maybe he saw me the other day when I was in Cars Land and I'd taken their pictures because that happens a lot where families are there multiple days and then I see them on a different day and they'll say hello or whatever and so I was thinking he was indicating that but clearly we're supposed to be in character and we've never been off this planet kind of thing so I was like oh okay and then he just kind of grins and he goes no I listened to the show I'm narcolepsy from the forums I was like holy crap it worked it worked secret identity revealed it was kind of cool to have somebody and what he said was he wasn't quite sure and then he heard me talking to the guest in front of him and it was just like oh yeah that's him that's Chris that's so awesome did you give him the best photos? I certainly did my best with the photos that I could do in that area. I'm still learning the photos of what to do there. It's like a whole different vibe. It's a whole different way of posing people and learning your area, figuring out what the best angles are. So I did the best that I could with them and gave them a couple of extra magic shots or holograms, as we call them there, just so that he got all the experience there. Yeah, it was fun, and I was happy to say hello. So, yeah, folks, there you go. Again, if you go, see me, tell me that you know my secret identity, and I'll know exactly what you're talking about. I'll remember it this time. You don't even have to say drop-weight cheese. No. Secret identity will do it. Yeah, secret identity will for sure do it. So that was fun. All right, so what are we here to talk about today? probably a pinball show that just got released right yeah that'd probably be a good start let's do that yeah so new pinball show just aired and it was a little different to start than normal because it was just mel and mel talking and mel addressing a lot of the issues that were brought up by people with the release yes um more or less mel just basically saying hey uh we hear you it's early access um yeah feedback is good feedback uh give us a chance there's adjustments that are gonna be happening and for so forth and so on um i will say there's even been a new version that dropped uh that added some graphical settings that we're able to tweak did you get a chance to mess with any of those jared i i actually just was able to turn ray tracing on um finally and use it in some of the games but i didn't really mess around with some of the more advanced setting because honestly i had no idea what they did and you know what that's that's a common problem that i have i wind up having to google what the heck what those settings are supposed to be doing so I did wind up throwing up the little NVIDIA I don't know what you call it overlay so I can see for any second CPU usage, GPU usage and I one by one was messing with them so the new ones that I noticed were we were able to mess with aliasing choosing between TAA and FXAA which I have no idea what the difference between those two are except where I found that TAA knocked the frames per second down a little bit. However, it did a much better job of aliasing, even to the point that I didn't have to have it at high aliasing. I could put it at medium aliasing, and I still didn't notice all that many jaggies. Whereas FXAA, I turned that on, better frame rates, but even with high quality. on I still notice jaggies. I was like, you know what, I'm going to sacrifice the four frames per second so I can have no jaggies. And then there was a frame limiter which basically said you could limit it to 15 frames, 30 frames, 60 frames, 72, 120 and unlimited. Here's the funny thing. I knocked it down to 30. It was still running at 44 frames per second. Okay. That's odd. Right. I was like, why is that not doing anything? I thought that it would walk it in at that rate. Yeah, yeah, right. Very weird. So I don't know what that was up. Shadow quality. I didn't notice a difference turning it up, turning it down, and it didn't affect frames per second either. Nor did post-processing to the best of my ability. Maybe it gave me a frame or two more if I turned it off. and then something called chromatic aberration which is how clean of a line versus how it separates color and so like chromatic aberration is like that effect you get when you're looking at like a black, like one of those 3D you know, blue and red sort of images and you get that blur either side of the Yes. Right. Okay. Which, to me, if you're like, why in the world would I turn that on? I don't want chromatic aberration. No. But then somebody said it has to do with VR? Again, I have no clue what... That is true. That is a VR thing. I remember seeing chromatic aberration talked about in VR. So that could be an interesting point to make. Maybe they're putting in settings... I'm not going to ask Zen to do this because no game designer seems to do this, but it would be so nice if when you hovered your mouse over it, it told you what it's supposed to do. Yes. That actually, honestly, it would be like, sure, you know, I think a lot of people who are tweaking the advanced settings, perhaps the cost of entry to the advanced tab is to know what you're doing in there, potentially, which is what a lot of developers would assume if you're messing around with the advanced settings. But, like, at the same time, don't make me think. Like, tell me basically, like, don't tell me what the thing means. Don't tell me what the acronym means. Tell me what it will do for me if I change it. Right, what effect on the game it's going to actually have. Yeah, will it make things sharper with the sacrifice on frames per second? Like, just do that. Like, sharpness with the sacrifice some performance like okay sure let's tweak that you know which again comes back around to having a benchmark test within a game um benchmark test and maybe within that benchmark test asking it what do you what do you prioritize yeah if your system is not at max capabilities what is it you're prioritizing do you want to prioritize frames per second do you want to prioritize graphical clarity um you know do you want to even break it down further and say i want my ball to be liquid smooth or i want everything to look flashy flashy you know and and like i think that's what i was saying by saying do you want high frames per second which would make your ball look liquidy smooth or do you want graphical fidelity which would be flashy flashy as you're saying and that's what i'm saying i I want it to be broken down as a consumer. Like, what do I want to get? Like, frames per second, sure, people probably understand that as consumers, but it's about the job to be done, right? It's like, what do I want? I want the board movement to be really smooth, or I want the game to look really, really incredible. So market it like that in the way you're speaking to it. that's the way to make those advanced settings more accessible to people who perhaps don't quite know what these terms mean it's interesting too because I've been going through the forums and seeing people have been posting what their rig setups are and it's really interesting to me how there are people that are posting they have better specs on their rig than me and are having terrible gameplay oh really whereas i'm having and and i don't know maybe it's my video card with its sex sex six gigabytes i got a sexy video card um yeah with it having a six gigabyte uh ram on memory uh memory on it that maybe that's the you know what what's putting me over the edge because i'm like i said before i only have eight megabits or eight gigabytes of ram on my system yeah and i want upgrade. I'm probably going to upgrade to 32 gigs. That will make a difference. But that's my question. Will it? Because people are having that and having issues still. So I'm like, okay. I think definitely RAM on board your GPU is the critical feature. The more RAM you have... If I add RAM, I'm adding it to my motherboard. So I'm adding it to the CPU. But the game's not using hardly any RAM on the CPU. It's all GPU. It's all GPU. Yeah. Well, that's where the expensive RAM is on your GPU. It's the same RAM. But it's not like you can add more RAM to your GPU. Honestly, why don't they do that? Put slots on your GPU so you can put more RAM on. Because then NVIDIA and AMD are going to throw a hissy. Yeah, that's right. And there's probably more to it than just changing the RAM strips over. yeah yeah yeah um so i i kind of feel like for now i'm gonna stick with my eight megabits or guy why do i keep on saying megabits my eight gigabytes um for as long as possible just to show what a lower benchmark is you know during early access i think it's good i think keeping it keeping it low i mean because i'm able to run like i said i'm able to run the game I'm usually at 44 frames per second as my low for most of the tables it's more than playable still at that and I'm not going for high scores right now so that's not an issue I think a lot of people would be satisfied if they didn't have to upgrade their game or their rig knowing that they'd still be able to play it you know what I mean that it's not just going to freeze up on them and look like a pixely mess yeah exactly right I think you know people you know it's fair to expect that you know if you're getting a brand new latest release game that you are going to make some sacrifices if you don't have a a super up to up to the current spec pc yeah but you know even people with you know nvidia like like 1660 ti's should be able to get reasonable reasonable output from because all the like i learned something the other day about how nvidia sort of do their cards and the essentially the upper end card like a 1600 or 16x series um card at the upper end of it is like a low-end rtx so like a 2030 or something like that in the way they actually sort of do it and maybe not so much with the um with the difference between rtx and GT, but if you're staying within the same sort of grouping, so like a GT series card, the lower end of the thousands is like the upper end of the 900s, if that makes sense. So, yeah, if you're on a bit of a budget, or you just can't actually lay your hands on decent video cards at the moment, which I believe is still an issue, you could go for like a super high-end RTX 20 series card and get basically a low-end 30 series card for your money. So that's an option as well. If you want to upgrade, but you can't get those 30 series cards. I think the supply is improving though. So that's good. We'll see. Other things that Mel talked about that he wanted to bring up, he was mentioning the ticketing system. And obviously you can guarantee he's heard an earful. I mean, we certainly gave him an earful. yeah we did but you know he was yeah he's still returning our emails so we couldn't have heard him that bad I think what we said was far less from what a lot of other people were saying about it but he wanted to he came straight out and basically reiterated that they're future proofing this game they don't want to do this again they don't want to do this again this they want to be their final platform and by having the currency in-house that allows them to control all the user info of what you own so that if they can convince all the other parties to let it happen this way it will be indeed a thing of you purchase it here you're going to own it on all the other systems um so here's hoping i mean obviously what he's saying is you They've got to talk to Sony, they've got to talk to Microsoft, they've got to talk to Nintendo. They've got to get them all on board. Yes. And that's no small feat. I mean, even if they got PC and one of the consoles across the line initially, not try and get them all across the line in one hit, but then show the other consoles, hopefully, that by doing it there's advantages. like you get more that like there's some sort of win for them as a ecosystem because that's what there's going to come down to like what is why should i bother giving everyone entitlements on my platform when they haven't paid for it on my platform so yes but on the other hand uh somebody pointed out the store that you purchase it from that money is going to that store so if you purchased it via PlayStation, Sony's getting their cut of the store money that way, which they be getting the same thing if they purchased the table outright from them Yeah it just a matter of it being entitled to the other platforms I think the way these the way things are going right now, the way especially Microsoft is the one that's pushing this hard, where they're kind of going towards being console-less eventually, I think. They're sort of going away from the Xbox as a platform and going, oh, let's just use PC? We'll just go in streaming, basically. Oh, right. Because NVIDIA have a service like that where you can actually buy a subscription. I think it's called NVIDIA Now or something like that. And you're using their compute and you're streaming it over the internet, the gaming. Now, obviously, unless there's a server in Brisbane, that doesn't work for Australia because it's coming from the States. I've done it before. And unless you, if you've got a decent fiber connection, that's fine. But for things that require accuracy like pinball, shoot-'em-ups, all those sort of things, you've got to have very low ping for that to actually be a viable solution. But all the same, I think that this is something that they're all kind of looking towards, especially because of the hardware issues during the pandemic. I mean it's just raised a giant red flag I'm sure for them yeah depending on third parties for the success of your platform is a problem but at the same time if they're using if they're going to full compute and you know using cloud-based servers to do all their um their serving of games that's another point of failure as well like we see absolutely Data centers go down all the time. Absolutely. So, you know, the entire, you know, North American seaboard goes down because some server catches on fire, you know. So there's some big architectural problems that are going to be challenges, I should say, not problems, that they're going to need to solve there. So anyway, those were the things that, those were the primary things that Mel was covering. we are I believe we're locked in for this unless something changes next episode we'll have Mel on so we'll cover a lot of this stuff just kind of touch base on things I know there's a myriad of things that you all want to hear us directly ask so I encourage you again if you have questions that you want us to make sure that we remember to bring up with Mel. Shoot, I'm trying to remember the things that we've said. Oh, yeah, we'll make sure we bring that up. Yeah, remind us. Hit us up on the social. Hit us up on Twitter there. Email. Or even send us an email. Yeah, at lomawlokate at gmail.com. Just ask us these questions so that we can remember to write them down, and we'll try and work them into our conversation with Mel. Yeah. Because that is going to be coming up. So, the other big news that Mel kind of dropped was they have somewhat of a roadmap. Yay, this is what we were asking for, right? Hey, public roadmap to an extent. Now, obviously, he said that there's a lot of things they've fallen behind on. The area that they have not fallen behind on, however, is table development. Yes. And the release schedule. What they call the content team. Yes, content team. It's a content team. So that's a very good thing because obviously what their goal here is they want to have at least one table a month being released. A new table being released. Yep. So with that in mind, let's bring up what the roadmap looks like here. Yeah. So obviously March they released Pinball FX and they released Indiana Jones. April, we've got a new table. We're going to cover this a little bit. World War Z. Which is kind of like a, huh? where'd that come from? Yeah, okay. But we have info on where that came from. So we're going to dive into that a little bit. May, we have a new Williams table release. June, we'll have a new Williams table release. Start your speculation now, folks. I think it's Williams table. It's not new. I don't think it's new new. Yes, it's new new. No, it is new new. It's new new. It's new new. And then July will be a news and original table release. yeah so I say it's new new Jared because in May they're also releasing Whitewater and Roadshow but then they said in the next pinball show they'll also tell us what the new Williams table that will be dropping in May oh well that's pretty cool so potentially three tables really yes available so here's the fun part obviously speculation immediately ramps up and we've already clued everybody in look on zen's back wall for hints right always always that wall is the reveal yes so somebody's taking that an extent farther and during ask akosh's section they looked on what was on his back wall and in the corner was a little edge of a box that was a terminator endoskeleton so immediately people are like it's t2 now i don't know if akosh's wall counts because akosh has shown stuff before that there's no hide no tail or i mean shoot they've shown stern machines um i don't think that's that's right his counts as the hint wall i think it's only the pinball shows wall i think the hint wall i think the pinball put this way i think the Pinball Show's studio is heavily curated. Yes. About what appears on that back wall. I don't think... I think outside of the studio, it might be a little bit harder to control that. Right. Because that's just their personal offices that they're in. Sometimes it's even their personal space because sometimes they're not even in the office. That's right. Yeah. That being said, on this latest episode, there was a Rubik's Cube. I think that'd be a horrible pinball machine, Yeah, unless they make wizard blocks. Then if they do wizard blocks and actually do it properly, then that could be interesting. I keep on saying, if they did Pinball 2000, it would be right in the wheelhouse of what Zen is. We've talked about this before on the show, like a while back. They wouldn't even need the hologram. They just make everything appear on the table, and there's your Pinball 2000. Yeah, that'd be great. I'd love it. Having it redesigned like that would be rad. And the fact that they can do video now, which is essentially what that is. But to your point, screw the video. Yeah, just put characters on there. Yeah, just don't do the horrible backbox with the mirror screen and all that tech. Just do it. Like proper Zen originals and remodel the characters so they don't look janky and 90s. and then we can finally have the uh the episode one table nobody's been asking for yeah that's right with our favorite jar jar binks in it yeah the only good thing about that table was you got to smack the living out of jar jar binks right the ball right that was the best part of it yeah um yeah do it bill 2000 yeah so yeah it'll be interesting to see what uh Here's the question, in terms of new Williams. Are we... I honestly don't think that we're going to be getting a new alphanumeric yet. I don't think until we see Funhaus and Space Station and Dr. Dude, until we see those become legacy tables, I don't think we're going to see any brand new System 11s pop up. No. I think they're going to get those working first. They've got enough problems with just the regular Williams tables at the moment, performance-wise, before they introduced alphanumerics, which they had a hard time tuning on their PX system. So, yeah. They've got some work to do for Williams to actually become performant yet. So that'll be kind of one of those things where it's like, hmm, what are we going to see next? So if we had to guess, if that means it's a new Williams, that means probably it's a new licensed Williams. It probably has to be. I doubt that it would be an expensive license. Like, I don't think they're going to hit us with another $15 table this soon after Indiana Jones. I think it'll be a ticketed table, possibly. Yeah, probably. So depending on the license, well, here's the thing. We know that they're looking for a Cactus Canyon, but that being said, they don't have it yet. So it's not going to be Cactus Canyon. Did they secure the Elvira license to go with Scared Stiff? Possibly? Maybe. I really don't think Elvira's going to be. Cassandra's pretty good with Lawson's thing. Right, right. I don't think she's going to charge them an arm and a leg, so I don't think that would be the premium massive cost. And then the last one is Jackpot. So if I had to guess, I'm going Jackpot. I'd say Jackpot's pretty good as a table choice. It just makes the most sense for a new Williams that will be under the ticketing pricing and not be carrying a license. You have the team rating, so you're not having to worry about the gambling anymore. Yeah. There's not a lot of 90s games that aren't licensed. Well, we've covered that. Those are the three that aren't. Well, excuse me, I take it back. Whodunit, that's the other one. Whodunit, that's possible. Jackpot and Cactus Canyon, that are the non-licensed ones that are left of the DMD era. Everything else is licensed. And I don't think we're going to do Whodunit. Not with Noir having just come out. Too close. Too similar. It is probably too similar, and I don't think that would fit at the moment. It will fit down the road, but we just need a bit of a break between the, you know, detective-themed tables. That's what my guess is, is that this next Williams is not going to be a $15 one for May. The one for June, I bet it will be. I think they're going to release one of these per quarter. I think we're going to get four heavy licenses per quarter, or I mean per year. So one per quarter. yeah i think it's probably fair to yeah well i was thinking originally every half year but i i think it's more and more ambitious than that yeah i think i think they will be doing quarterly based on what i've seen with that roadmap i think now it's it's pretty fair to say that we can expect one every three months or so so it's kind of nice that we have actually got a little bit of a uh a roadmap of sorts to go with um i think honestly as consumers that's probably all we can expect As far as features and other stuff go, no. But table releases, if they can continue that up, that sort of expectation up, then that's good. Keep that going. So let's go into World War Z here a little bit, just so we can kind of get a look. First off, there's your back glass, folks. All right, Zen, just make that your back glass. That's a really awesome. I love that. Zombies crawling up the pinball machine. I dig that it's really really good give you an idea of what the play field looks like there we have it it's kind of you know what what was I asking for I want self contained machines that look like they fit in a cabinet that's it that's what I was hoping for we've got proper insert lights and this thing when it's moving I'm not going to play it because if you want to watch the video, go look it up yourself on YouTube. You can see it all you want. It's not going to look great on our feed here. But proper insert lights. It looks like we've got five modes. I'm hoping for a proper mode hole. It seems like this lane right here says light main mode. So I don't know. I'm wondering if this up here is our mode start, because Zen does kind of like that kind of situation. But lots of fun ramps going around. What I'm thinking is the mode start could actually be you shoot that ramp and then it goes around and then falls into that subway. Because see, there's a diverter. Yes, there's a subway right here. And then it kicks the ball back out over here. I think that could be the mode start. Yeah. In general, what I've seen of the ball in action here, this looks like an actual pinball table. Yeah, this looks like something you could make. other than you got this guy here which is a walking zombie that's yes zombies walk around here when i was watching the trailer i couldn't help but think uh i was like this is a combination of walking dead and plants versus zombies two tables that they don't have the license to anymore and it was almost like let's roll it all into this yeah yeah right i think it looks it looks fine yeah it's been a while since we had a good zombie flipper. Right. Let's get this around. They do an interesting thing. Hold on. I've got to get my cursor back up to where I wanted it to be. Come over here. All right. So you'll notice up here at the top of the table, there's a little chainsaw. That's a flipper. It is a flipper. Guys pop up, and you're knocking them down. It's just kind of a cool little upper play field mechanic. Yeah, it is cool. This table is from one of the new designers, Dolby. Yeah. So, I don't know. It looks like it has potential. I'm kind of excited about this one. I care less about the theme, more about... I just like regular pinball. I like zen originals to feel like pinball. That's why Aliens is my favorite table that they've done. Because it feels like it could be an actual pinball machine. It just happens to have some fantasy elements on it. That's right. it's firmly bruised in reality yeah now something else I want to point out so if we go here onto their splash screen notice some things down here which my lovely scroll bar scrub bar is showing anyway it's hiding Saber Interactive Saber Interactive made video game of World War Z Saber Interactive is also who is part of that merger with Embracer Group Saber Interactive absorbed Zen, apparently, according to Wikipedia, but I didn't think that was the case. I don't know. But anyway, so Saber Interactive and Paramount. So those are two important licensors. So if we think about it, Indiana Jones was technically Paramount. I don't know. I assume they had to go there. This is Paramount. T2 is. It's sort of based off of the movie, except for they don't have the Brad Pitt character in there. So that means you don't have to pay for it. So it's a combination of the book and the movie. Yeah. So the licensing is more about the name than anything else. It seems to be, yeah. Yeah. And the other thing, so Paramount, they're Star Trek? Yep. Well, yes and no. But CBS is actually Star Trek now. actually who owns, if you're thinking of Next Generation, that's in CBS. Paramount is the feature films. So if you're talking about Stern's Star Trek table, that's Paramount. Confusing, isn't it? It's so confusing. Licensing is hard. So who else is Paramount? So Paramount is T2. Adam's Family? Yeah. T2 as well? No. Oh, geez. T2 isn't that licensing hell T2 was initially Kralko Terminator has since been released by Warner Brothers then it went over Paramount released some Terminator movies the licensing on Terminator It's a hot potato isn't it? is bonkers just stupid bonkers I remember that now in fact I think that was one of the challenges that Farsight had when they were trying to secure T2. Oh, sure. And they had that really narrow window where they could actually sell it to because of the license or change between the new movie. It was some other company got the digital rights to make Terminator video games. Yeah, that's right. And so Farsight had to negotiate with them saying, hey, we're not trying to step into your realm. we just want to make this pinball machine that's already existed. Can we? And the deal was, yes, we'll let you. We won't charge you the licensing fee that we had to pay. The agreement is that when we release our game, you have to give a little promotion to it. I don't think a game ever got released. No, I don't think so either. I think Firesight skipped, kind of skirted that one. They were riding the razor's edge right there. As they often did. Yes. Yeah. What else would be... I'm going to guess, I don't know if this is true, but I'm going to guess that Gilligan's Island might fall under the Paramount realm. I trying to think who else of licensed tables might be within that because not Congo I don think I don think Congo was i don think no i think it was was congo paramount i think it was it might be so congo might fall under that realm i don know the good news is if zen is talking to paramount that's that's that opens some good doors in summary paramount equals good yes if we could get if we could get them talking to warner brothers that would be a really good goo because that opens up a whole bunch of other licenses that are a Williams license, you know, like Dirty Harry and Dirty Harry and Flintstones. And I was trying to think if there was another one that's of a Williams. No, Lord of the Rings is not included in that. But here's the thing. So somebody pointed out, oh, wouldn't you know it? Zen's first original game is Saber because they're part of them and Saber did World War Z. So that made me go hmm, let's go over to Saber Interactive's Wikipedia page and see what other games Saber has made. So let's look down here. Right here at World War Z, right above it, we have Evil Dead. Now, that would be a really cool table do i think evil dead is bloody as all get out though i mean that's oh yeah evil dead so i doubt we're gonna see it makes doom look pedestrian right um yeah um but still that's kind of fun to think about um i like this down here warhammer 40 000 yeah that's um that's massive that would be rather if they tied a license in right like what would that bring into the ecosystem like Such a huge fan base. Right? But that would be pretty cool to see. If you look, we've got these Halo games. I don't know if they would get to do Halo. That's a whole... Is it Microsoft? Although it's now Bungie is with Sony. I mean, I don't know where that gets mixed in or whatever. But you can see Saber is all about licensing. If we kind of scroll up here a little bit, my thing that I noticed... Ooh, NBA. Yes. Oh, yes, look at that. That means if they have NBA connections, maybe we can get our NBA fast break. Wouldn't that be the bomb? Finally, fast break. And all I'm going to say is, if there's a June Williams table that is at a premium cost, and what takes place in June? NBA finals. Maybe? I don't know. Slam-a-lam-a-ding-dong, as NBA James says. I'm just saying. So if you guys are always looking for clues as to things that are coming up, you know, sometimes it just takes doing a quick Google search and going, so what else did they put out there and, you know, taking some wild speculation guesses? Because we did say, you know, that's the part of merging, playing with your partners and seeing who else has licensing and agreements in place that make your life easier. Yeah, absolutely. Greasing the wheels of the licensing journey. Yeah, so we'll see where that all takes us. did though want to touch upon one area that we haven't hit. So there are these three new tables that everybody's getting to play now, obviously, which is Noir, Sky Pirates, and I always blank when I go to talk about Thurman. The Curse of the Mummy. Yeah, the Mummy. Yeah. So, Jared, you and I have had a little chance to obviously bash around on these. Not extensively, either of us. No. We haven't put hours into it. but we had a bit more of a flip than we did last time. So have you formed some quick opinions about the three tables, what you like, what you don't like? Like how would you rank them of those three? Okay, so let's start with the one that I ranked last. It's Noir. Okay. I cannot get into it at all. Okay. It's something about it. It just doesn't feel like it makes sense to me. Okay. We'll go into detail in a moment. So give me your list. All right. So Noir, and then I'd say Sky Pirates, then I'd say The Mummy. So that's from least to most. Okay. And I'm going to go most favorite, Noir. Right. Noir speaks to me. I'm enjoying it at its most pinball-y best, which is shocking to me because I don't usually like Zoltan tables. Yeah. second place I'm gonna go with Mummy but not by much and then I go Sky Pirates um both of them both of those tables are kind of not doing it for me and I think the so now we'll go I'll go into my reasons why um Sky Pirates and Mummy suffer from my least favorite thing that Zen likes to do which is, hey, who needs to have a mode start hole? Let's just have you hit ramps multiple times, and that'll start a mode. Oh, Spell-O-Ramas. I hate that. It's Spell-O-Rama. I hate Spell-O-Rama. I mean, it's only like hit it four times, but it does feel, it's not, there's no flow to the ball. It's always catch, stop, shoot, catch, stop, shoot. It's not combo, combo, round, combo, round, and having a mode hole in an easy, not necessarily easy, but in a central location that you can readily hit. I just found myself on both those tables going, I don't know what to do. I don't have enough time to look up at the DMD or the video board now and quickly read what did I just do because the ball is rocketing right back to my flipper and I'm not registering what it is I'm doing. and then all of a sudden something starts, and I'm like, wait, I don't know what that was. You know, it's an interesting point about the new video screen. I mean, I love it. I love the fact that they've gone HD video with their DMDs, but, oh, geez, it needs – I really want it to be inside the play field and incorporated into the play field. Like, have it as a – I know it would be impossible to do this, obviously, because there's a lot of stuff going on on that center part of the playfield. But having it integrated into the bottom of the playfield would just make it so much easier to see what was going on when it was going on. I think of the three video screens, and this might be part of why I like Noir, I think Noir's is the best of the three. It's the best integrated and easiest to get info from. I find both Mummy and Sky Pirates I look up there and there's just like I'm spending too much time trying to read what I'm supposed to be reading it's not immediately clear and I find the mummies in general to be the weakest of the video that's playing it just looks too amateurish I want to say in my opinion that's just kind of what my quick tell on that is uh interestingly enough i think it was noir there was a video mode that was full-on dmd yeah i i think they may not have got to it yet which it was that was just weird i'm like wait why does this suddenly look like a dmd which makes sense because when we first saw noir it was a dmd yeah through and through there was no video i yeah i think they're still working that out um to be honest because there's no way they'd switch they'd break the illusion and switch back to DMD again. That just doesn't make sense. As for why Noir winds up being my favorite, I love the toys. Really phenomenal use of that center toy. It's a true mechanical feel to it. Everything that I've seen on that table could be on a real table. Again, it comes back to that's my thought. I like tables that are that way whereas curse of the mummy is zen at their uh fantasy best yeah but i just i'm not making a connection to it um and i and i i even predicted it i'm not a fan of mini playfields i've said it i'm not a fan of the mini playfields and there's two of them on that one yeah i the thing i don't there's a couple of things i don't like about noir yeah and number one it's it's trying to get that skill shot it seems oh that skill shot's random it's that's the thing like don't like a skill shot should be yes it should be skill not like the classic stern the modern stern skill shots where you just you know put the ball into the oscillating lane like that's not a skill you know what the skill shot is you remember those kids toys it was a farm with the arrow that pointed an animal you just pull a string you never know where the arrow was going to land that's the skill shot on noir yeah it totally is i don't know how i don't know how to dial that in if everyone knows if everyone's unlocked the code to try and get that skill shot is it a timing thing i managed to get it once and i literally fluked it i've had it it lined up the ball goes and it horseshoes around it and spits back out instead of going in yep had that too So that's point number one. I don't want, at the very start of the game, to feel like my first interaction with the game is an unobtainable goal. So it should feel like, yes, I have a chance of getting the skillshot knot. This is just pure random rubbish, which is what it feels like to me at the moment. The second thing that I... I don't know why I hate it so much, but when you're in multiball and that flipper recedes and becomes unavailable, that drives me nuts really like having that flipper not there and not usable just it feels so wrong because it feels like there's a shot that you need to make there there is what the shot is is if you shoot the telephone that now uh becomes turns into a loop it turns into a loop that sends it up that ramp yeah i've never been able to get it well here's the funny thing i can hit that the one thing i hate about noir is that upper flipper i cannot hit that that ramp shot to save my life yeah it's a hard shot brutal and thank god that's not a mode start like most of his old town tables normally imagine if that was a mode start geez no he's the one that that's why i don't like a lot of his tables because his mode starts are in impossible places that are so difficult to hit because it's a combination of oh you gotta hit a loop that comes around to a flipper that then you gotta hit in action to make it hit the mode start i hate that but i've yet to get the ball to go down the lombard street i've not been able to shoot that shot i can't get it for the life of me and i don't know if this is where because i'm not playing at 60 frames per second that i'm not able to get it um i don't know if it's because there's some latency because i'm using Windows or DualShock for Windows, you know, third-party controller support to make it happen. And I'm trying like crazy. I'm like, okay, I'm going to hear the ball rolling around, but before I even see it, I'm going to start my flip. I can't hit it. I cannot hit it. And that's the only part of that table that's driving me nuts. Yeah, so we both got our we've both got our reservations about that table they're different but there's still something with it even though it's your favorite it seems to be your favorite with some caveats believe me I'm not like none of these tables I'm like going woohoo these are must plays kind of just kind of like it feels like a step back to the way originals were and i'm shocked about that with curse of the mummy because that's by deep i usually love his stuff but this is as we know deep had this one in his back pocket for years yeah and anna is the one that has finished it yeah and i feel that that's why it feels like an older zen table because it's because it's got it's got deep's older design older ideas behind it yeah i i have played the mummy a couple of times um and for some reason it's like i don't have a problem with upper playfields i think they're fun um uh so i i like the fact it's got the the upper playfields there it's got some different mechanics up like there's different mechanisms at the top as well um which are fun to interact with like on the left hand mini playfield you've got that sort of spinning bar that you have to spin around and complete the lights that's an interesting thing i haven't seen before um and you know it's that that's that left-hand play field is super wide flipper get though but the thing i like is like one of the modes that i stumbled across when i was playing it over the last couple of days was you build a bridge between the two so yeah you shoot her you sort of glance the target and it flies off and you feel like you sort of lost the ball like cheaply off the playfield but it actually adds a bridge piece between the playfields i haven't completed the bridge yet but i really want to i want to see what that does so there's there's things in it that like draw me into the game it feels more accessible than noir um in that you know you can shoot the ramp they're easy enough to shoot um it's all it's still shoot the ramp and light the thing three times or so um but there seems to be for me a little bit more clarity in the fact you need to shoot them i i do think the thing i think is missing on that table from a feedback to the user perspective is they need to take some big cues from stern here in their future table designs it's okay to have faceted inserts against each ramp but you need a big a big flashing light like a really clear arrow shaped flashing light like that you cannot miss shoot here for this mode it needs to be really visual and really like attention grabbing that's what they need to do for future table releases because that's going to help newcomers to the table understand what they need to shoot for much better than just like an insert light blinking because they're always blinking. Yeah. I want something that's really clear. And that's my problem with that table too was it was just like, everything's blinking. And at one point I was doing, it was saying something about there's a drought and we need water. Yeah, go shoot the... I couldn't figure out for the life of me what to hit because there was a bazillion blinking lights. I'm like, I don't know what the... And I even paused the game, went into table view mode and I'm looking at the lights and I'm like, nothing is indicating to me water or drought. It's Oasis. the motors oasis so you gotta like you gotta look at the oasis again i it just wasn't what i found myself having to do with both sky pirates and mummy is i have to look at the table guide and what i haven't yet and what i found myself need to and this is the difference between zen originals and williams tables is i then i went and i threw in party zone and i couldn't remember what i what i need to do in party zone it's been a while since i'd played it but it became so apparently obvious within 30 seconds what i need to do to get things you know going that's the difference between really good table design and maybe call it deep table design because unfortunately a lot of new sterns are this way where damn if you don't need to know the roadmap of how to get places and the only way you're going to know that is by looking on the internet and seeing what their little tree branch system is to get everywhere. Oh, it drives me insane. Pinball is, oh, geez. The thing is, pinball is, because it's going into homes now, that people are demanding more and more deeper rule sets so that they get more longevity out of the game. Whereas, you know, back in the 90s, we had Belly's Game Show, where you just had to get, you know, four different, you know, prizes, and then you get Showcase Bonanza, you know? Yeah, yeah. I long for that simplicity now in Tales because I just don't have I don't have the inclination as a player to go and deep dive into a rule set to know, in the case of Batman 66 for example, it's a great example where you do one character then another character, then do this mode then do that, and you get this amazing amount of points, it's like I don't have the time for this just let me flip the ball and How are you supposed to walk up to the table and know that? It doesn't say it on the apron. It doesn't say it on the apron. It doesn't exist to me. I know that's completely not the way you need to think about pinball now, but that's the way I think about it because I'm old, and I just don't like the complexity anymore. I don't like it. Shakes angry fist at the sky. Another thing I don't care for with Mummy is that pyramid as a ramp. it reminds you too much of the uh the masters of the force for the forces of the force yeah i thought you were gonna say that i hate masters of the force yeah and there it is yeah pyramid ramp wow um it's the sith i mean for as much as for as much as you might if somebody might hate the jump ramp and no good gophers i would much rather have a jump ramp than that stupid pyramid it just i don't know there's something about it that whole table again to me that table is the epitome of could never be made as an actual pinball table No Everything from you got water you got these crazy gaps you got uh alligators as pop bumpers um yeah everything about it is fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy very little real pinball um sky pirates at least has uh more of that pinball thing but sky pirates i'm just having a problem connecting with yeah me too I can't I don't know the things that grab at me yeah it's the same for me too like I'm very like much I go Skyprides I need to play this game so I can sort of talk about it more but that's the only reason why I want to play it and that's really like I don't want to be feeling like that about the game I'm sure there's I'm sure there's more to it than what I'm seeing but it's just like anything if like if this was in the arcade and I had this up against something like Alien or something like oh jeez, what's another really type one, for example, Sun of Zeus and then these tables were in a row together I'd look at Sky Price and go, yeah, it looks pretty but then after a couple of games I don't think I've played again it just doesn't seem to be enough in it It reminds me of well, both when Pinball Arcade was in its heyday that's where 90% of my gameplay was. And then the other 10% went to Zen. And of Zen, there was only a few tables that I go back to over and over again. And it was mainly Wolverine, Iron Man, and Super League. Those were because this is FX2 days. Those were the ones that I constantly would go back to. And then I'd sample other tables and just kind of go, I'd be done with them. That was a nice distraction, but give me the other three. And these three, if we were back in that era, would be the, eh, they're a distraction. Yeah. I mean, they're pretty. Still better than anything that Zacharias put up. Correct. Like, as far as original tables go, that's very true. You can see, the thing is that I don't want, what I don't want is the designers to think that, you know, they put out average tables because they're not average. No. The table designs, they're good table designs. The theme integration is really good. That's, I think we could both agree on how they've integrated themes for those tables. They're all excellently integrated. Yes. It's just that it feels like the game, I was trying to work out what it was that was making me feel like sort of very neutral about the tables and it's just... I think it's actually the game... the actual game mechanics of the games. It's just... They're all the same. Well, again, like you said, you hate Spellorama. I do. And two of those tables are Spellorama. That's right. Pirates and Mummy. Both of those are Spellorama. Noir is less Spellorama and actually has somewhat of a mode start. It's right there in the middle. it's a investigate kind of thing yeah it's not really starting the mode but it's semi there um it's also got some interesting playfield features like the lombard street like thing it's fun like when you eventually get there chris yeah it's a fun mechanic well that's what i'm saying toys that i like it's got a layout that i like if if that upper flipper would just be a little more friendly. I'd greatly appreciate it. Have you tried messing with your views? I usually do. Yeah, I do view too as well. You might want to mess with your views on that table a little bit to get better perspective on the shot so you can at least see it. Yeah, see, just mess around with the views because that might help you try and dial it in. And then you can go back to view 2 once you've just dialed in where you need to flip it from. Although once we get cabinet mode, I'm going directly overhead and that's going to be even more difficult maybe although i shouldn't it's not necessarily because then i can see exactly where on the flipper it has to go to hit that angle correct to get up there this one could actually benefit greatly from from cabinet mode yeah and i think to an extent these tables particularly i think sky pirates probably here would actually translate really well over to VR. Yes. I feel that maybe some of the things with Sky Pirates is everything, it's got that problem where sometimes you get tables that everything blends in. And maybe that's the problem I'm having with Sky Pirates. It looks too, I don't know, it sort of feels the same level, but it's clearly not the same level as far as the play field goes. but everything sort of feels like one-dimensional. I don't know. It's really hard for me to try and work out what the critique is here because I'm having a really hard time working out what it is rather than saying I don't like it. I want to try and work out why, and it's really hard to dial that in for me. Again, it's the same reason why I look at World War Z and go, I think I'm going to like that because I know what I like. Yeah. You know, it's like, again, I want to be like a pinball table, play like a real pinball table and i want to have modes like a real pinball table that's what i want and that one clearly looks like it has it nor is the closest of these three that has it it's why i uh shoot any of the tables that i've liked it's again why do i like alien so much because the mode start is right there in the middle of the table and can be hit with either flipper and it's really easy to start the modes that's why the other thing and yet it's still a challenging table. And here's the other, like, the counterpoint to this. Like, think of those Star Wars tables that have a very, like, that are sort of a crossover between a little bit like the Mummy and the fact that they're pinball, but there's a lot else going on. Like, think of The Force Awakens. How that table is like a sand dune, essentially. Yeah. But it's still rooted in pinball and it's still, like, the environmental effects are there. If you're playing it on widescreen, it's just like the table becomes part of the environment and it looks, that looks really good. This is probably one of my favorite of the Star Wars tables. And I would agree. That's one that I constantly go back to because they got the balance right with that one. It's real pinball. It's logical. Even the effects like the tentacled monsters that come out of the holes, it's still essentially a bash toy. Yep. And that's the sort of thing that brings me into the tables, right? And it's got good flow. It does have great flow, like really good flow. and that's what I'm looking for in a table I want to, like, when I play a table I want to feel like I'm winning and the way I feel like I'm winning is making consecutive shots because it feels like I'm in the zone with the table and I want that feeling of flow and I think, you know, Sky Pirates certainly has a lot of ramps and shots there's a lot of loop shots and stuff in Sky Pirates I just don't feel like I'm accomplishing anything. No, that's the problem. I think that's the thing with these tables. I feel like I'm just shooting shots and there's nothing... Because it's Spell-O-Rama and it saps all the fun out of the gameplay. I'm just shooting this loop. The classic one is that upper loop, that upper left flipper loop. You just shoot it, it traps it. Shoot it, it traps it. And I'm just bored at the end. and I don't want to do anymore. So, and then some of the other ones, like the compass ramp, you've got to shoot that like... Seven times. What? Is it seven times? Or even more. It's more. It feels... It's nearly ten. Okay. To spell the word. It's like, it reminds me of that horrible home pin, Thunderbirds. Yes. Where you have to shoot the Thunderbirds ramp. But no, Thunderbirds are go. Right. Is what you have to spell on that game. It's like, please, no. like it's just it's and the thing is back in the day stern stern in the 2000s era they were all spellerama too and the reason why they're all spellerama it doesn't take a lot of programming right that is the thing that i think i'm probably focusing on here is that it feels like spelleramas are a cop-out and they're hiding a lack of of rule programming or i guess playfield design and playfield programming integration yeah it feels like a cop-out and i just don't want that in the game like i want it to feel a lot more integrated i do wish um the voice work on all these three tables is much better. Yeah, I actually like the voice work. It's pretty good. Noir's great. There's just some repetitiveness. Every single time I launch the ball on Noir, he does his little skill shot speech. Can we have variations of the speech? Or just make it more quippy. Less verbose. The first time you launch, that's fine. Every other time after that, it needs to be quick. Make it a shortened version of the call out. And then I keep on saying this, we've critiqued this ad nauseum with Zen. If you're going to put information up on the DMD, give us time to read it. Trap the ball, capture the ball, do something. Or if you're not going to do that, have the call outs spell it out clearly. And combine that with what you're saying with big flashy light. your light sequence should like quickly dim bing bing bing bing bing and then the lights can come back on so that you immediately know what you need to do it's not like that has to be the only thing blinking no just you got to do a better job with your light sequencing so that the lights act as an arrow to tell us what we need to do you need beacons in the game like the that's really what it comes down to I want clearly identified shots I want that entire ramp's light cluster to be lit and flashing really, really apparently. That's what I want as a player. Again, all you have to do is just look at Medieval Madness. It's got a bazillion lights on there. A lot of them are flashing all the time. But you understand completely, hey, I've hit that ramp three times. It's blinking for the fourth time. I need to hit that one more time. I need to do that with over here. When I did that, all of a sudden this blue light lit up over here. you know and these are i don't know or look at attack from mars the lights tell you the story it's really clear and easy to understand even though there's lots of blinking things going on you understand if it's a solid that means you've already lit it a bunch all the insert lights are playing key into that yeah they're getting better zen's getting better with it because lordy just all you have to do is look at earth defense oh what what even happens on that table. I don't know. I've done my best to try and I've never gotten too far into it. I have no clue what's going on. That's just a vomit of lights doing whatever they want to do. Telling no story whatsoever. No. No. Anyway, I think that's our constructive criticism. We keep on saying, Zen, feel free. Go back and redo some code. Stern does it all the time. Update the code. Get your player feedback. Update it. Correct it. Tweak it. Do vault additions of these old tables like Stern does. Just do a little bit. It's not going to take much. There just needs to be a little bit of tweaking. Go back. Redo some of your callouts. We've said it last time with Rome. Just redo all the callouts. Recast that callout system. and fixed your insert lights on that one. Exactly. And that would be a good one that maybe we'll remember that to talk to Mel about. Just see what his opinion of... How about... What would that involve? Once you get it in the hands of people, take people's feedback and feel like, okay, now we need to update the code on this. A bit like Mars, you know? Oh, yeah, Mars completely got made better. So did Epic Quest. Yeah. There's such a difference between Epic Quest and FX2 versus FX3 in terms of the rule changes, and they were for the better. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So that would be really welcome. I know that that all costs money, and it's got to come from somewhere. But you can't tell me that the designers are like, no, I'm completely happy. I'm sure they want to go back over and revisit their work. they've learned so much since those tables have come out you know they're saying they want to tweak mhm so well that's enough of us we're casting a whole lot of shade over these brand new tables the funny thing is if I said if you were going to pick one to purchase which would you pick? I'd pick Noir and that was the one that you wouldn't say least to pick. No, I'd probably go with the mummy, actually. So there you go. Different strokes for different folks. Right? Yeah. Consensus. And I do feel like Noir is a table I'm going to continue to play. Even though, like I said, even though it's not like, yeah, that's awesome, it does feel like a table that I am going to continue to revisit. I know I haven't scratched the surface on any of these tables either. Like, no. There's so much more to explore on them. I just need to just get the motivation to go and do it. Yeah, that's what it comes down to. All right, folks. That'll do it for us this week. Like we said, two weeks from now, we should have Mel on. We'll have a good discussion with him. Send us your questions. Yes, send those questions. We want to know what – it doesn't mean we're going to ask all your questions, but it's at least guide us towards certain questions that we want to – certain things we want to touch base with him about. I know he's going to want to talk about World War Z and potentially we'll mind him for some stuff about what's going on with Williams like for instance, why do we not have true Williams playfield action going on? Why are we still dealing with basically the we got semi-Williams physics but the flippers aren't, they're still steep what are we going to call that? It's not the same as what it was in FX3, and is it that way for a reason? Is that a permanent, or is the other stuff coming? We need those roadmap things. That's basically what I think we want to most talk to them about, is where they're going. I really hope that they do another cut before we speak to them, because I tried to play the getaway with ray tracing on. Unplayable. The ball rate, I reckon, is below 30 frames a second. Safecracker is still a horrible mess. It's still got collision detection issues on that table. They haven't touched it. So I think it's time to start looking at these Williams tables. Maybe. So yeah. Hopefully more updated build. That's our biggest thing is we're fine if this stuff is placeholders, if they're testing it and looking at data for certain things so that they can apply that to fixes coming down. We just want to know that is this what it is or are we expecting more to happen? Yeah. Because if there's more to happen, then I'm like, cool. Cool. I'll shut up about it. Yeah. That's the last I'll say until I see the new stuff coming in. And honestly, like, and obviously, they're not going to leave the Williams tables in the state they are. No. There's a lot of ROM emulation, like orchestration, orchestration, music timing issues floating around. There's performance issues, like just frame rate performance issues. Obviously, they're going to be addressed in the early access. That's a given. But it feels like they're like at the moment in what's on offer, they're almost like the flagship of the actual early access, yet they're not being treated as such. So clearly, Zen have got data suggesting that other tables are the priority for them. I just feel that it's really time to get those Billions tables working Really well And that's all I'd like to say about that Alright well we'll save That stuff then for Mel For a little chat Yes Again we appreciate you guys Tuning in to us if you haven't noticed Yes I did the crass thing I put tips on to our Twitter We've had people various times Ask us hey how can we support the show and it's always been, well, you can find us on PayPal. Hey, you can hit us up this way. That's an easy way to just go to our Twitter. And if you want to support the show, feel free to give us a tip. We're not holding you to it by any means, but we figured, what the hell? Yeah, I mean, geez, a few bucks here and there will help pay the website hosting fees. There you go. Luckily, we're a pretty lean show. We don't have a lot of overheads. Yeah, look around. We don't have a lot of overheads. no we don't at all no so you know we do it on a cheap but you know we try and keep we try and keep it uh low cost but high entertainment value all right so until then though uh again thank you we'll see you next time and next time it won't be stuff and things jared because it's going to be mel so it's going to be melon things yeah there you go all right until then folks bye bye see you later