the pinball network is online launching off the record pinball podcast tom you hit the button i hit the button that we're doing it guys this is uh uh my name is joel i'm here with uh travis and tom and this is the on the record off the record TPN number one podcast number one in your hearts number one being episode number one and yeah that's how you do an intro guys yep perfect so we are officially already within 15 seconds we're already the number one podcast on TPN did I hear that right? number one off the record podcast but we are on the record but we're on the record but we're off the record I think we're on the record though setting records okay well Zach's gonna love this name we're killing it and we haven't even told Zach we're doing this yet have we? we have not oh man Papa Zach doesn't know there was a little discussion about it and I said I'll get Travis to do it dude I just want on the discord I'll be honest with you like I'm using you two to get on the discord I hear a blip I mean you could be doing this all on yourself but you drug us into it. That's true. That's true. You're not missing much. So the sad part is people have clicked this and are now listening to this. And so the reality is the three of us had a Facebook conversation going on in the background and decided let's do it. Let's make a podcast. We just spent about 45 minutes not only trying to figure out how do we actually do this together because we all just record our own stuff normally. And now how do we play well with others? And, uh, and we're also trying to figure out a name, which I think we nailed with on the record, off the record podcast. Absolutely. And we tried to figure out what's the point of this verdict still on, on that. But, um, we thought, uh, why not, why not chat it up? And, uh, you know, I think there's a little bit of news we can talk about. Um, so let's dive in. Um, yeah, yeah. Well, the big thing was, is we had to, We had to make sure Tom reined in his ginormous ego, too. I mean, freaking prima donna up in Wisconsin. He was telling us how this podcast needs to be, what we need to use, what we need to talk about. We were like, Tom, okay, we'll do it. So everything you hear, it's Tom's idea. I'm just putting it out there right now. Yeah. It was like, what, three to four pages of notes before we even started? I think so. It was a lot. I don't even know how I got roped into this. Well, it's because you said you admire Dennis so much on the pinball show that you're auditioning to take a spot. That's what I heard. I was trying, but he's... I think you heard me say how much I admire Dennis. I don't want to take his spot, though. I just want to be closer to him. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, you did want a compliment from Dennis, didn't you? Everyone needs a role model, and I think we all know Dennis is it. what did he end up uh complimenting you on he said i had some clean crisp emotes in twitch really yeah that's what he did he didn't compliment your podcast or anything it was just about your emotes on twitch i don't know i just i locked i mean i was done at that point i got my compliment i was grinning from ear to ear and i've just i've been riding it ever since i i think we need to talk about how much flipping out pinball and tpn is paying us to do this yeah that's true well yes not yet they will we have to get in to get the paycheck well we got to clear up the rumors you know because a lot of people have been talking about Win Schilling and stuff like that you know and i would just like everybody out there to know that yeah if anybody wants to give me free pinball machines i will shill the hell out of your product for sure ditto yeah i mean just well except for thunderbirds i will not shill that game but any other game i'm good yeah no i think it's fair i mean i think if uh you're creating media in the pinball industry you should be getting free stuff clearly you hear that stern i've done like 10 mando videos i know you guys are listening well the problem is you haven't done a mando podcasts yet so today's the day well technically i have i've done like five i think right well you have some podcasts that aren't even out yet right yeah well i don't know i mean it's just me uh well yeah apparently so popular that my wife is like what the hell are you doing talking to tom and joel late at night like you know we're plotting she's jealous reply yeah exactly exactly Okay, so let's just get straight on it then, since Stern's going to send us all Mandos now. I mean, we've talked this out. It just makes sense. So, yeah. So, Mando, what do you guys think? I'm flipping it already. What? I was about to say, you got an LV. Oh, jeez. No, I'm just kidding about that. Great. Send all the hate mail to Tom. Fuck cities. Well, Tom, I mean, I think it is somewhat of a legit question. I mean, like, we are three different, you know, I'm a pro buyer. That's what I can afford. That's what I do. Tom, you own multiple LEs. I know, Travis, you've dabbled with everything. I don't own that many LEs. Everybody thinks I own all these LEs. You only have to own two. I think I own more pros than LEs, actually. Joel, he owns two in each room. There you go. That's what it is. You just have to have two to be multiple. So multiple LEs. But you are in. You are in, Tom. You are in on an LE Amanda. And as an LE buyer, when you're seeing games, this game hasn't even been streamed yet, and you're seeing games already selling for absurd amounts of money, that's got to be tough for you. I think it's crazy. I mean, I don't know how anybody could just not even play a game and go, all right well i'll throw 1500 or 15 000 excuse me at that it's the power of the grogu man what it is that little that grogu doll that's in the pinball machine it's making everybody go bonkers and you look on pin side i mean the mando thread there are people hopping in like hey is there any chance any distributor has a le out there you know i got a buddy who's a huge fan it's like there's there's people just now figuring this out and uh i don't know it's crazy i mean i've never been in that position where i have something of value that people are clamoring after but um that's gonna be pretty cool the only game i can remember that's even close to being like this was metallica so when metallica came out it seemed like everybody wanted that le everybody saw the toy, the Sparky toy and just like went nuts and see now 2021 if somebody saw a Sparky toy they would say oh there's nothing in the game at all yeah they'd be like why doesn't Sparky actually electrocute your ass I don't get it that's a valid point I think it's pretty cool congrats first off Tom Congrats on getting an LE. Thank you. I'm excited for you. I hope it looks, I mean, I know mirrored back glasses are hard to photograph, so I hope that looks amazing in person. Travis, I know you're in on what? You're in on a premium? What are you in on? Are you in on something? Nothing yet. I'm waiting. So my plan was to wait until the reveal because I was mainly waiting to see who coded it. because I was actually, if Lonnie was going to be on code, I knew for sure I was going to wait six months to ten months to get it. And that's mainly because, historically speaking, most of his codes take a few months to finally start fleshing themselves out. And I did not want to get another game in here in which the code was not ready to go from day one. Because otherwise, you know, I mean, Joel, I don't know if you've heard about this before, but I play a little bit of pinball. and I like to get the wizard mode. Yeah, you dabble. Yeah, I dabble a little bit. I dabble in pinball. You don't like waiting for the wizard mode to be done? Oh, gosh. So here's the thing. Let's talk about that for a second. A little bit off track. So I got Rick and Morty, or I had the chance to play it at the very beginning of its run, basically in March of 2020, before everything shut down. The arcade nearby got like game 22 or something like that. and in less than a week, I got to the end of the game, and there was no wizard mode or anything put in. And so for me, it was a lot of fun experiencing the different modes getting there, but then it was just a real empty feeling that you did all that work, and you get to the end, and then there's just nothing there yet. And so for me, that took away some of the enjoyability. Is that even a word? That needs to be a word. It's not. It works. Okay, so I'm going to go with that. OK, so my enjoy ability went down a little bit. So I was kind of thinking in those terms, what if this happened the same way? Because Lonnie did Stranger Things and he did Guardians. And we all know that both of those pens, when it first got released, they just got just destroyed about the code. And rightfully so. It just wasn't ready yet. And so that was my biggest worry. Now, obviously, with Dwight, I'm fully expecting it to be a little bit more, I guess, day one ready would be the proper way to put it, because Ninja Turtles was like that for the most part at the house. And so now that I see that, I'm probably more apt to be in on a premium eventually. I just don't know if I'm going to be in on the first run. I think I might be in on the second run, most likely. So your worry is because once once a pinball machine enters your house, you're going to play the heck out of it. And the last thing you want, though, is to plow through the game over the course of a few days or however long and get to an end. And there be no end. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. So with Ninja Turtles, there was an end already. So believe it or not, you're going to hate me, Joel and Tom, but I got to the wizard mode on game one. No. Yeah. Well, no, I take that back. I got the final battle. Final battle. And then I missed Calabunga by one April hurry up. But it was still coded in, though. You know what I mean? It was there day one, so it gave me something to go for. And then Avengers, I got to the end of that within like 30 games. So luckily L1 coded it in there. And the same thing with Led Zeppelin within about 25 games or so. I made it to the final wizard mode, which I won't say what it is on here. But, Tom, you've experienced it. You have a video out of it. And so stuff like that is a lot of fun. And to me, I want those things to be coded in. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it wasn't even Celebration Day. I just said it right there. Nice. Spoiler alert. Yeah, thank you for that. It was the top of the chart. So, yeah, even then, that one wasn't coded in yet, even at the beginning. But at least there was a wizard mode close to the end. So is pinball even, like, fun for you when you beat a game in 30 minutes? It's so much more fun. If you can play pinball decently, you know, and Tom knows this because Tom's pretty good. And Joel, you know this because I know you run into shots from time to time. But this is the biggest thing. So my biggest gripe when people talk about code and they get worried about the coder and stuff like this, it's like, you know, a lot of people saying that they don't even have the skill set to get to the end of the game anyways. True. So it's like, what are they really complaining about? And it's kind of like the Munsters, for instance. You'll hear a lot of people talk bad about the code, and somewhat rightfully so. But the other flip side is, is I'm not even convinced that people complaining about the code could even tell me what to do on ball one. And so it's kind of like this this thing, though, to where these games, they become infinitely enjoyable whenever you fully understand what each shot does and you start to appreciate the geometry of it and you work different ways to get to the end of the game. So I enjoy that a lot. And it's just one of those things that it's very hard for something to get boring if you see all the fun in it and the fun aspects of which direction to go. Does that make sense with what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, I think like obviously you're a huge fan of Avengers. and I think Avengers, one thing it does incredibly well is because you have so much freedom to do with the gems, you could beat that game so many different ways and score so many different, like there are just so many options. It very much is a choose your own adventure kind of game. And I think that works really well for you in your skill level, in your collection. It makes sense. Ray Day, Keith, you know, coding that game makes complete sense. while there are a lot of other games that are a lot more linear, and those are the ones I am curious about when it is kind of clear, you know, there really only is kind of a very direct way to work through the game. You know, are those types of games still enjoyable for you when you can do that every single time? Is that a fair question? Yeah, I mean, I think, Tom, what do you think? I think they're still enjoyable, even if the rule set is very linear. Yeah, I mean, there's not too many linear games nowadays. Well, I think what we're getting at is because Joel and I were we were talking about this other day with how Dwight codes are. I think from a tournament standpoint, a Dwight code becomes very linear in the sense that there's very one. There's usually one very specific way to milk all one path to get points. Right. And milk all the points out. And this was the take I was coming up with when we were talking about coders with games and stuff like that with Dwight. his games are probably my least favorite modern games to play in a tournament. But yet, his games at home are probably some of the most fun I have when I'm going for a wizard mode because I have a reason to go after every shot or go explore the playfield without really worrying about points too much. I mean, up to a certain point, if you have to cash in a certain amount of jackpot or something like that, which even then, off the top of my head, I can't really think of anything with Dwight that he does that in particular. Like even with Turtles, I guess it's collecting the Super Mondo jackpots or something like that. Yeah. So, I mean, there's still a little bit of progression you've got to make, but I really love Dwight codes at the house. Like if I have to explore a full game and just play for a wizard mode, the codes are a lot of fun. Yeah. So that's kind of the way that I look at it. 100%. I think Dwight, he's known for his moments and coding moments into the game. And I don't think I doubt I mean, this is I'm not a tournament player. You guys are. But I doubt you're like enjoying a pinball moment in the middle of a tournament. You're probably a little more focused on, you know, cradle up, be safe. What the smart next shot kind of thing But at home between his light shows and what he codes in with the progression of the story that the one thing listening to him being interviewed on the Super Awesome Pinball Show I mean, he talked a mile a minute and you can tell how excited he is. But it is very clear, like they have a ton of video. They have a ton of assets. It seems like every single mode you are actually working through a storyline. You're working through a moment from the show. And to me, I feel like you are Mando. that is your that's who you are in the game and i feel like it sounds like it's going to be coded in a really good way to like experience these different scenes and these different events and uh as a as a wizard mode type player that's what i strive for it doesn't mean i ever get there but like that's that's what i want to experience over and over and over again i care way more about that than a super jackpot personally i know that's different from you guys no for sure i mean even in Mando, it looks like that there's several wizard modes built into it from just looking at the inserts on the play field, right? Yeah. And I know when they're, yeah, but when they're talking about the code, I know they're talking about, it's like, well, you have the three, the three different ways to get a play field multiplier. So you get a additional one X per time. And for me, I'm like, all right, but I know you guys, like assuming you're already strategizing in your head of like, how do I get that going? How do I keep that going? You know, that kind of thing. oh yeah well we'll tom and i will have that well i don't know about tom but i'd have that figured out by day one because it's well the reason why so i got this weird habit i don't know if you do this tom joel you probably i don't know if you do this either when i get a pin i like to at least within the first 48 hours take the glass off and see what everything does like i like to know what switch does what what shots lead to where and i just kind of like looking over and that's I do that with my son, Carter, who's my middle son, all the time. He's just 10 years old, but he loves just taking the ball and just seeing where the different shots lead to. And just by doing that, I get a better idea of how to approach a pin from the very beginning. Because obviously with the modern pin, the layouts are much different than a solid state and even some early 90s. And it's just it's nice to get a chance to get accustomed to a pin that way. And that's a large part why I like getting a new pin is just being able just to explore different ways and just see a whole different world that you otherwise hadn't seen up until that point. Yeah, I need to do that more. I typically don't do that. I just shoot at will and just try to find the shots and kind of explore the game that way. Just rip and rip. Yeah. Pretty much. I take the glass off to put the balls in, and that's about it. We let her go. But, I mean, to me, yeah, I'm all about that progression. Like, just do that story. Like, let's work through that story. And that's something that I know. You know, I know Zach is a huge Dwight fan because, like, he loves Star Wars. So many people don't like Star Wars because of the pin. They don't like Star Wars because of, you know, the 40 times play field multiplier. It's like, I don't. But Zach doesn't care about that. And he's talking about the moments and what all you can do in Star Wars. And Turtles is very similar. It's got some really cool moments and progression throughout the game, but I don't think it's the strongest tournament game. So I'm personally, Mando, what I'm seeing, I'm really excited about as a home player. I'll be very curious to see how well it stacks up in a competitive role, you know, between you two. I don't know if, I mean, you guys may both beat the game in a week. I have no idea. Travis. I mean, Travis will. I won't. But one thing I really, like, respect about Dwight Sullivan is none of his games feel the same to me, like, code-wise. You know, Ghostbusters doesn't feel like Game of Thrones, and Game of Thrones doesn't feel like this game. I mean, he just seems to, you know, do a lot of different things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he did say in his interview that one thing he really likes is RPG-type elements, like improving or building your character or choosing a different path or having different perks kind of thing. Obviously, I think Avengers did that really well with the stones. But with Mando, they're talking about basically being able to sell your best car and buy power-ups and buy upgrades. I think that could help a player like me get through the story to get further in the wizard mode. But for you guys, I think there's probably going to be some really cool strategy with that. Like, hey, let's try to gain this amount of money so that you can get this particular perk and carry that into this particular mode. And then you have a better chance of blowing it up. I think there could be some really cool stuff there. So I'm guessing that's pretty much how he's going to code it then, is taking the Beskar armor. and you just use it to adjust your modes accordingly? I know, I mean, I think he already said in one of them that there are different, so like Mando, you can get like the rifle and that means it gives you a certain perk or like the, one of them was the whispering or the, it's his little shooter that shoots out all the different like missiles all at one time. That essentially, if you buy that upgrade, it basically gives you like a super bomb. so you could get all the shots in one hit of the action button. So it's certain things like that, that there are different weapon upgrades that basically give you shots or give you the ability to do certain things, which can be huge. So then I wonder, do you get to pick the weapon that you're going after or trying to collect? Yeah, I think it's like a score. Like you hit the scoop if you can hit the scoop. I know, Travis, you're terrified of the scoop. But if you hit the scoop, apparently you do. I think it sounds like it's more like you're in the store, you probably flip through with buttons, and you select what you want to buy. That's what I'm thinking it sounds like. I hope that's right because that actually sounds awesome. If I can make a decision to get something and then have to earn that or at least make a decision that this is what I want, and then either – I want to be able to do something on the play field to earn that, though. I don't want to collect cash or whatever and then buy it from there. You know what I mean? Like I want to select here. This is what I want. I want the rifle. And now I've got to hit like four other shots to collect my rifle. That's what I really hope it would be. Well, he did say that there are certain it sounded like there would be like certain hurry ups or there were certain modes or something that you can pursue that in that mode. The only reason you would do this hurry up is because he said there were different times in the actual show that Mando was actually just doing a job to get money. And so he said there are certain parts of the game where you're just doing something to get money. So maybe that's it, where it's like, all right, I'm going to do this hurry up real quick because it's going to give me this X amount of Beskar. And then with that, I can hit the scoop and grab this weapon. But he kept bringing it back to Game of Thrones. Apparently in Game of Thrones, there's like a gold type aspect that you can buy perks. Does that, I don't, I don't, I don't play or haven't played Game of Thrones much. So it sounds like it's similar to that. Yeah, in Game of Thrones, you can basically use your gold to buy things. You know, you can advance the wall multiball, you can start video mode, certain things like that. And you're selecting that with the flippers? Yes. Yeah. So that's that would be my similar thought once, you know, when you get in a scoop and you're in the store. But Travis, go ahead. I know this has kept you up at night, but what is it about this scoop that you're just terrified of? The posts, they're not symmetrical. Leading into the scoop. So that tells me, like, if I try to do a forehand and I'm early, like from the right flipper and I hit that post off the that's right up against that ramp, That means the ball is just going to go crazy out of control. And I don't like being out of control. It's just the thing with scoops that I've never really enjoyed is that you have to be just dead on all the time. Right. There's no rattle or anything like that. But I'm just not generally a fan of stopping the gameplay with the scoop. It honestly looks like an easy backhand from the pictures. Oh, yeah. No, it's backhand all day. It's just I think that that's all it's going to be. I think anytime you're on the right flipper, the meta is going to turn into just post-pass over to the left and then just backhand it on the left-hand side. Yeah, Tom, but sometimes easy shots for some are really hard for Travis. This might be it. Is this a reference to the Hermit target? I just made a comment. That's all I made. If that's what comes to your mind, that's on you, you know? Fair enough. Well, I think it's funny because I don't care about scoops. I think, to me, I like a scoop. It gives me a chance to breathe or collect my thoughts, you know. But I know, like, Keith. Keith is completely against scoops. Like, none of his games have scoops because he doesn't want to slow the game down, right? So it's an interesting. I don't know. That portal on the premium is a pretty big scoop. That's a valid point. Yeah, it does slow it down. And there's a mystery scoop on the premium, too. so i think that's like a that's a vuck though like that leads to the fuck of course that's what i would like to see if it has a vuck i don't mind it but if it's just uh just a scoop and then the ball just comes out like i don't know i've just i've never found that to be what's the word what's the word that dennis does not want me to say ever was it uh yeah it's not kinetically satisfying yeah like it just i i don't know it just doesn't do anything to me like if i have a ball launching back at the flippers i want it to be like the war machine shot or the rocket raccoon shot dude that's the scoop that's the scoop in tna man that thing launches back out at you yeah see i don't mind the scoop on tna necessarily just because it does launch back at you like i want the scoop to actually fight back is what i want it just it just seems like it's just i don't know you hit it nothing really happens except for whatever the game determines to happen, right? The ball just kind of just chills there. And then it just kind of just, you know, Peters out to your flippers. And I don't know, it just doesn't, it's not fun. Like for me, that's a big part of guns and roses, for instance, then that that's not fun for me, but the ball just gets fired back at me half the time on that game, you know? So if the scoop on Mando is the store, you want the guy to like physically kick you out of the store after you bought your upgrade. Yes. I want that mofo to be angry that I bought his rifle. Yes. Oh boy. I'm just going to crank it up all the way. Yeah, turn up the power. I don't... Oh, maybe that's a question. The only coil in any of my sterns that I've ever adjusted is the trough eject. I turn that down. Otherwise, I leave all the coils, I leave all the slings, I leave everything, whatever it is. Is that smart of me or am i dumb should i be adjusting things no i think that's right that's what i do i mean sometimes i'll make the slings more sensitive i wanted to play closer to like stern circuit levels but oh yeah okay all right well you know joel you would know this you play tournaments yeah but i like to enjoy pinball i don't want to oh yeah i forgot all those tournament players we're just joyless figures yeah we never enjoy it no no what what scares me about playing in tournaments is one the time commitment and then two i feel like i'd get hooked and then i'd want to travel and it's just like wait hold up it's fair the fear of enjoying it yeah you fear the time commitment is that i fear i fear the uh my my free time is so limited right now that you know I'm talking to you fools right now, but to be honest, the idea of going to play a six-hour tournament on a Saturday sounds amazing. But trying to schedule that out with my wife is... I think Tom's right. Tom, you're right. Joel fears fun. That's what it is. That's what we discovered. Well, everybody thinks a tournament is you wait in line to play a game, and that is not every tournament. I mean, yes, those are some tournaments. tournaments, but they're very few and far between. Like, yeah, you might go to a show and you might see a tournament where people are waiting in line to play a game, but certainly not going to happen at District 82, I can tell you that much. No. Chill, chill, chill. No. No, it's fun, though. Like, the Herb tournaments are fun, and if you're good enough, you don't have to stand in line too often. And you might just stand in line like Carl D'Python Anghelo for all of 10 games. Or you might be like Escher Lefkoff and stand there just for a few games. Or even, I think even Jared August, didn't he at INDISC, Tom? He came up and he qualified like on his first card or something like that. So, I mean. Could be. There are a few people like that, but. Yeah. So, it's not, I mean, if you guys hear that tournaments is just standing in line, it's definitely not that at all. no i i i have full confidence that i would thoroughly enjoy it but what i'm learning is i'm outnumbered in this conversation so i should not say anything negative about tournament or competitive pinball that's that's what i'm hearing no it looks like a ton of fun and i'm nothing but jealous uh you know watching tom streams and seeing all the different tournaments and watching you guys play it looks it looks like a blast but um i'm just a random thought that did pop in i did see, Travis, you did actually in our Facebook conversation, you made a comment about the upper playfields. And obviously in Mando, on a pro, it's just one flipper and it's built in. It doesn't move. It's just part of that play field. And then you got the premium, which looks nuts. But you made a comment. I think you're personally, you think the pro one looks more enjoyable. I mean, what? You want to expand on that at all? Yeah. Well, it's just one of those things that, okay, so on the pro play field, I'm assuming everybody listening to this knows exactly what we're talking about but on the pro play field since it's static and it's one flipper i like the idea of just having one flipper better than the two big flippers i don't the play field moving up and down that part i really don't care too much for you know it's just kind of like whatever i mean it adds a different i guess a nuance to everything but it's not make or break for me but i do love the idea of a single flipper being switched out to one of those smaller micro flippers like you see on simpsons or what other game would have a micro basically any game that has a micro flipper so for me i see that as an opportunity to change the game and kind of change the way that it acts up there and i just personally think i would have more fun under those circumstances than i would with two full flippers and the play field just moving up and down because honestly yeah but you can change the flippers on the on the premium too well yeah you could but even then and that's one of the things that i um i was thinking about doing also but my fear is is then how good would that work if you had the too many flippers while the plate filled or that many plate fields moving up and down and moving everywhere and becoming to like a big incline i don't i don't know if that would be fun or frustrating after a while So you afraid that the play field is potentially whether it single flipper or double flipper is potentially going to be too easy Cause I know on the pro right on the pro that post that opposite the flipper is adjustable So you could make your gap. You could make the gap there bigger if you want it. So instead of making a smaller flipper, you just make a bigger gap. Right. Or I know Dennis has already said in the code, he has full intentions of making it, you know, like flatter in certain, this is the premium LE, making it flatter. So certain shots are easy and then it'll ramp up and then it'll be way harder. So I think I'd be curious if it's almost like a bucking Bronco kind of thing. If there are ways to increase the difficulty there where, you know, the incline is always harder, thus making the shots harder or easier to drain. I'm very curious to see what he does with that. But I will agree with you. If that becomes a tool that people are spending way too much time in, it will quickly become not fun. No doubt in my mind, they'll have a time limit on there. There's zero doubt. It has to be. I mean, I wouldn't see anything being any longer than five to eight seconds up in there. It sounded like they were going to have like a bonus round where it was like a countdown. It sounded like from the... count you down yeah from the the saps it was uh the saps interview it was uh dwight said there were like three stages to each of the encounters which are which is basically the mini play field and then there's like a it sounded like a very short bonus thing that but he said the bonus thing is where you get all the points. But like Joel was alluding to, the pitch of the premium will change. So in that sense, it'll create a lot of chaos. I think that might cause chaos in more ways than one. I fear anything on a premium or an LE that moves. I always feel like it has the potential to break. you know and it's something like that if that goes down if your mini playfield stops working it basically would break you out of a large part of the game true you know and so that's i don't think something like that would necessarily go down like so easily yeah like a spinner on led zeppelin that's definitely yeah you would hope you would hope that upper play i mean it's a big part i agree but i i think uh what's interesting obviously Brian Eddy made this game Brian Eddy designed this game so the first thing that popped in my mind was the battlefield on shadow you know that is an upper play field but personally i find it it's it's pretty hard and i understand uh the kind of breakout really that kind of thing that shifts left to right i'm not going to call it a flipper like a pusher almost it's unique to control but i know when i own shadow you know you'd work to get up to the battlefield and you could screw that up so quickly so i'm you know do you guys personally the battlefield on shadow i feel like it's a good difficulty do you do you agree with that or no yeah i think it just depends on the setup of the game if it's you know if the pitch is steeper on it it's going to be a lot faster um but uh you know again just depends on the setup yeah i don't know i've never seen anybody in tournament like pop it up on the battlefield and stay up there for 30 seconds straight you know but part of it is coded that way you know you hit the backdrop targets and they drop down and kicks you off um so i i don't know i think there is a chance i am very curious to see what they do with that play field whether it's the single level or the the complex one but i do think i mean they can do a lot with code there where if you hit whatever you need to hit you get to the point where it kills the flipper or something like that to to get you out of it instead of you just cranking up all these points forever. Yeah, that's actually what Colin and I were talking about just the other day that maybe there's something that would be coded into it to where if you either hit X amount of targets up there or you miss them, that maybe one flipper gets killed to make it a little bit tougher during your encounter. Like you have an arm that is disabled or something like that or you get hit down. I would like to see stuff like that. I think definitely looking at that mini play field, even with it moving up and down, I fully believe that you have to get very creative with your code overall, especially with how giant those flippers are on there. I mean, if you think carrot flippers on miles and around looks massive, I mean, these, it honestly looks like you could stay up there all day long, even if the play field is moving, because what would prevent you from just trapping up and then waiting for the mini play field to do its thing and then when it comes to its apex or to a place to where it makes this the shot safe then you go for your shot like i feel like you could just do that over and over again as well so but i think it's going to be coded so that you know from from my understanding from what i heard from the from dwight's interview was basically like the first the first level of it you're going to hit like two targets and then four targets and then six targets and then you're pretty much done and you know well then there's like 10 second bonus right yeah like a short bonus time and then your flippers are more than likely i think gonna die or there's gonna be no reason to be up there anymore yeah does it make other shots come up like across the play field once you get off the mini play field. Did they say anything about that? I think no, because it's just an encounter. So I would assume from a story standpoint, you're done. The encounter's over. So I think it's supposed to be a small kind of separate thing. It did sound like you hit the left ramp twice, and then it's, or I think you hit it the first time, the second time it's lit, or it diverts your ball. and then you know once you're done once you're done with that area you're not going back to it unless you know but on the other side of it it sounded like if you didn't complete it it was it was still lit so it would divert your ball back into it so yeah i think you have a certain amount of time to get back on the left ramp to drop you back in something like that i would just no go ahead tom no i i'll go ahead we're being too nice okay are you going or am i going tom we're just two nice guys we still haven't gone anywhere okay so what i was trying to say was is i think also too i would be very surprised but it seems like that they're not going this direction that would dwight being very into the what do we say the rpg is that where our rgp what What is it even called? RPG, right? Is that? I think. I don't know. I need to let my nerdom come out. War playing game? Yeah, that sounds about right. So if we were going by that and it's on that mini play field, I would like to think, especially with all the video assets that are going to be in this game, that there would be some type of knockout blow after you get off that mini play field. So say you exit the mini play field and you got one final shot that's lit up. The light show's going nuts. The whole game is telling you to focus on this one shot, wherever it could be on the play field, and then that's your final shot to hit. It'll be the scoop. Yeah, of course. The game does its little thing, you know, and then it shows your scene ending. It shows Mando coming out, you know, just victorious. I think that would be the way to do it. It'll be the scoop. You have to hit it from the right flipper. The left flipper's dead. Okay. Well, this game's dead to me then. What I'm saying, here you are talking about the upper play field. You're afraid it's going to be too easy. All I hope is that you struggle. You struggle with that upper play field. When you look at it, it looks like the easiest upper play field in a long time. I can't think of it. Even if it moves, those flippers are so big. I don't see how you... It's a full size, yeah. Right. I don't see how somebody cannot control it. I think as long as you have a pulse and your eyes work properly, you'll be able to stay up there in that mini upper play field for a while. I honestly believe that. Joel, I even think you will be able to stay up there for a while. That's really my praise. Yeah, thank you. Like I said, all I hope is that you struggle because for whatever reason and you make some excuse. But I will tell you, like in Deadpool, that knockout blow, you know, you got the light show pointing you right towards the scoop. You hit the scoop. you get a great animation, you feel great. I agree. That's actually really smart. Don't let the encounter end at the upper play field. Qualify it, hit your shots on the upper play field, kick your ball out, and then have to end it hitting something else on the play field. That would be pretty cool. Yeah, it just seems like an opportunity to take advantage of more of the space that you have underneath that glass. And to me, if you're going to make a game that's fun to play. You want to take advantage of as much of the play field as possible. And you want to make, to me, those encounters would mean so much more if, just like you said, Joel, if we're qualifying things up there and then we're able to come back down and use the entire game to finish that particular encounter off. I just feel like that would be a bigger moment and it lends itself a lot more for Dwight to do what he does best and for him to take advantage of what Brian Eddy has created out there. Sure. So with that, so that's the whole upper right back play field, but I'm going to solve Travis's problem right here. Go ahead. Yeah. Just take out the left flipper and disable the motor. Oh wow. Yeah. Give yourself only one flipper. Yeah. Go ahead, Travis. Yeah. That's some shit Josh Sharpe would do. Games at nationals. that way it'll take you it'll take you three weeks to beat the game so too josh would be like mini playfield is going to be upside down guys so my question is that's the upper right upper right side of the playfield i think looks pretty cool my bigger concern is the upper left side of the playfield you know you got these five rollovers rogu's back there and two pop bumpers i'm really curious how and then you got the premium le there's a magnet in there and i don't really know yet how they're going to use the magnet but just you i maybe that's the question your initial thoughts of that section and in it and then if you were dwight how do you code that section to be like a really enjoyable aspect of the game tom you want to go first on this one no you take it you want okay i will totally go okay so i figured this out when i was looking closely at the play field because i was saying the same thing Joel that there was five rollovers up top, but it looks like there's actually only four. There is only four. Okay. So apparently at Stern, they wanted to really spell out child, but they only wanted four rollovers. So I cannot remember the last game in which they had more letters up there than actual rollovers. So it's chill. It's just chill. Yeah. It's just chill. Yeah. So you want to hit the chill rollovers. And I honestly, I don't know how the D gets qualified. In that case, I've been trying to figure that one out. And this is a mystery to me. And I haven't asked anybody at Stern, but everybody I've talked to that is not a Stern employee, nobody has any idea how the D gets qualified. I would assume the flippers would move the inserts around. You just move the light is what you're saying. Okay. Right. That's exactly right. But so does that mean that there's just a random insert up there in which you never actually qualified that particular insert? Like you have to qualify part of the chill and then you just move the light over to the D. Well, the chill, the guess is the orbit, right? Yeah. Yeah. The C I'm looking at the picture right now, the C, H and I and L, they all have switches underneath them. The D does not. The D and I don't know why I keep calling the D. I'm just going to call it the D. We're just going to go with this. The D portion is right up against the post, and it's right to the left of another arrow insert. So right by that center ramp. Right. I mean, it just kind of looks like it's just lost out there. I mean, it's just like, I don't know. I don't understand. I don't understand. It feels like that just had to be put in there because it is the child. It needs to be rescued like the child. Yeah. Apparently. Well, that's my biggest worry up top, too, is that you can't even see the the I, L or D if you're standing there at the pinball machine. I'm really worried about that. And I don't like things being obstructed that you have to rely on visually seeing. And that's the way it seems like. Do you guys think you can be able to see the I, L, B and child if you're playing the game? I feel like there's a tall joke in here somewhere. but i mean i think i don't think it'll be an issue it's not it's not like the pke targets all the way in the back of ghostbusters i mean it's not that far back right i'm kind well i'm kind of getting those vibes because it's not all the way back right yeah but that that razor crest toy is right there like right smack dab in the middle of the play field and i'm just wondering what that looks like if you're standing there i could be just totally off base and you could probably see right over that toy but just from the looks of it i'm kind of curious if those rollovers are actually hidden behind that well you can't actively see them when i was talking to jordan and becca with flip tronic about this there was a big question of one do you think you will be able to change the insert there the the rollover lights with your flippers i would assume you would but it brings a question if you do then what's the point of the magnet on the premium and le because the magnet is supposed to like throw some you know craziness so it's like if you if you can't change the rollovers then you're almost like relying on the magnet to hopefully throw the ball in the direction you want to go but i feel like that would probably piss a bunch of people off if they just keep chucking the ball up there waiting for one rollover to finally happen yeah that would be odd i just i really think the magnet i wish it was tied into the action button where you could do something to where you're powering up Rogu to use the force, and then you have to time it just right, where you basically just use your action button like a Magna Save, except it's all the way at the top. Stop the ball right there, and then you could have some sort of super jackpot built into a blinking rollover up there. I mean, I think that would be really cool if that was able to get coded in. I don't know if that's possible, though. But I don't know. That's about the only thing I can think of up top. I'm with you. The magnet to me, you know, when you're playing the game of pro versus premium, it's like, okay, that play field looks like a ton of fun, but I'm really, I was really happy to see that there is kind of a play that instead of an upper play field, it's built in, but it's still there. You know, it's only one flipper. Like, I feel like that's a solid compromise. It not like they completely removed it from the game but the the the magnet I just don there wasn anything there that was like well I got to go premium for the magnet I have no idea what that magnet does So I that is definitely a wait and see um with the code what they going to do with that magnet to to see what it you know is it really just eye candy at that point? Is it just, you know, Oh, the ball stopped, you know, or is it going to actually do something? I don't know, but I'm looking forward to it. What do you think, Tom? Anything left on the chill rollovers? No, wait to play it. I mean, it's, yeah, it's, I still think you're going to have to, I wonder if it's just going to be a light that moves over and you got to get the lit light. Who knows? Now, do you want your Grogu to move on your Ellie? No, I don't care about that. You don't want it to move at all? I could have it I mean okay yeah it'd be nice if it moved but probably a distraction too if there's a mod that comes out to move that little SOB underneath that glass are you going to get that mod oh yeah definitely okay so he wants Grogu to move Joel there you go I mean I don't mind yeah it's not like to me I don't need Grogu to bend over pick up the ball and eat it you know I don't need that but it's like The idea of having him blink or his head move like that, yeah. Oh, man. I mean, that would be a cool – it doesn't add to the aspect. It would just be cool decor. You know, think about if you had that game on location. If Grogu's head moved or blinked, like kids – I think kids are already going to go nuts for this game, but you add in a little bit of that, it would only increase the appeal of the game. but uh it would have been awesome if that would have happened but at the same time too i think some people are taking it to extremes though in terms of disappointing you know what i mean it's like some of the people i talk to out there it's almost as if they really believe grogu should just come alive under that glass walk across the play field over the ramps over everything and probably grab the ball out of the shooter lane i mean that that's that's the vibe i get from some people the the negative comments of grogu doesn't move or that the razor crest should have been the upper play field the razor crest should have been huge or you know proportions aren't the correct between the razor cresting it's like i don't care like i people wanted a proportional razor crest yeah do they know how big that ship is well it's more of say that ship is real that ship is not fitting in a pinball machine like what size do they want it to be i think it would be more if if the ship is going to be, let's say the ship was the upper play field. So it was that big. It took up that much of the play field. Then they would expect Grogu to be a, you know, a small figure, not a towering, you know, piece in the corn. I don't agree with that. I'm just, I'm just repeating because, because you can compare that to like Simpsons. You got Homer's head, which is obnoxiously huge in the back of Simpsons. And then you have the entire living room in the upper left. Like I don't agree. I think Simpsons is great. I love that. That doesn't bother me at all. You know, it doesn't. Yeah, just some people. Each section is like its own little thing, because if we want everything to be at scale, then everybody needs to take their Grogu out of the game and just go to Walmart and get the little two inch figurine and just put it back there. Yeah, this game will be littered with with figurines and whatnot. But I can't I can't stand those those mods. Tom, you don't do that, do you? Only only on Tron. Oh, my gosh. Joel, do you know what I'm talking about? Do you two know what I'm talking about with the little figurines? Yeah. That drives me crazy. Does it not drive you guys crazy? I'm not a big fan of it. It's not for my games, but at the end of the day, it's your game. Do what you want. You know, there are people with Deadpool that have added action figures. They'll add a shark back in the corner and a T-Rex back in the corner. Turtles is a perfect example. The amount of people that have taken turtles action action figures and put it in their games. You know, if that makes you happy, you do you. But no, it's not. I mean, I'm all for everybody doing what they want with their pinball machine. But I also feel like if I was there playing their game, I would tell them, OK, I would set them down, set them down. And I would say, OK, guys, let's huddle up here and think about this. we have a $6,000 machine. Sometimes even a 10th. If it's Mando, you have a $15,000 machine. If it's guns and roses, you have a $20,000 machine pirates. If it's pirates, you have like a 40,000. Yeah. We could go all day long, but I would set this person down. I'd be like, okay, we really like, I would feel like Tom Hanks on league of their own, you know, when she, when he's having like that meltdown, there's no modding and pinball. Yeah. Yeah. how she keeps like missing the cutoff, you know, she just keeps chunking the ball. That's the type of breakdown I would have. I would just be like, why do we need to put figurines in places where it doesn't look natural to have figurines? Like you could tell you just went to Walmart and bought an $8 figurine to put on this game. It just, it never looks right. Me at all. The only time that it's ever removed, right. Is just what Tom said earlier was Tron. And that's about it. All the other times, I don't know. It just like when I see pictures of it on the Internet, it kind of like it makes my eye twitch. I'm not going to lie. It just throws me off. So the reality is you would set them down. You'd say, hey, let's take the glass off. Let's rip all this stuff out there and then let's together hit every switch so we can learn what they all do. That's what you'd want to do with them. I hope every pro owner puts a bunch of stuff on those crossover rams just for Travis. You could have Ewoks just hanging off the habit trails. No, I hope they put action figures directly in front of the chill targets. You can't even see them even more. I'm trying. I would love to say like hey listeners of the podcast please send pictures of your playfield with your action figures too but we don't have an email we don't have an email you can send them to the pinball show send them to the pinball show directly to Dennis Eclectic Gamers Podcast there's some mod company out there right now that's making itty-bitty Ewoks. They were just like, this is a brilliant idea. And they're going to make these little hanging Ewok stickers to put on the habitry of Mandalorian. And if they do make them, somebody feel free to buy them and send them to Travis. He will put them on. If he receives them, I'm signing him up. If he receives them from somebody, he will put them on his cup. Okay, I'm sorry. The thought of Ewoks being on any pinball machine, let alone being a mod, is just too much for me to handle right now. I agree though those ramps though on Mandalorian Pro I say I agree like somebody said this already this is just what I think you guys can agree with me if you want I just I don't like the look of the Habitroll ramps I feel like they're very distracting on the Pro you know I'm looking at my X-Men LE right now and I'm it's got that movable ramp and I'm just thinking like when that thing crosses over it looks really funny. Yeah. And to have two of them like that? Yeah. Well, so my initial thought was Taxi. Like, Taxi has two crisscrossing, but they're metal. And I don't feel like they get away. They're visibly not a big deal. But do you know of a game that has a plastic ramp that goes across the middle of the play field like that? Transporter. That's about it. But that's in, like, the middle of the play field. and maybe Bally Lost World Escape from the Lost World that has a crossover and is it visually distracting would you say? yes and no but they're in the back they're more towards the middle back yeah the one in Transporter isn't at all since it's towards the back but this is the first pinball machine I can think of where it leads right back to an end lane I can't think of any other ones with plastic that leads back to them it's that close if they did, if they released a mod, you know, 200 bucks boom, you can buy the metal the metal rails, you know, for a premium, I feel like they'd sell extremely well, because I and if they don't, if Stern doesn't, it wouldn't surprise me if somebody found a way to retrofit it and provide some sort of, but I'm with you, that was one of the first things I saw, like those are right there and they're kind of bulky i'd like to be a fly on the wall at stern and you know when they're in these cost cutting meetings and they're like well you know we could just take the habit trails out and put plastic across yeah like well i mean it's almost if that was metal right there on the pro i think the pro would have been a no-brainer yeah so part of me always wonders if they make decisions based off trying to push more premiums because obviously for this type of game, premiums are probably going to sell like hotcakes. It would not surprise me one bit if they outsold pros 5-1 easily. And the pros even loaded though. Don't get me wrong. Even with that, the pro is still loaded. I don't know visually until I actually get to see it in person, which I should here in just a couple of weeks because I know locally we're getting a pro. So just from the pictures and from the video, something just seems off to me seeing those plastic ramps going across the play field. I like on the pictures how it seems like Moff Gideon's sword actually goes well with it. Yeah, it's symmetrical. So that part's cool. I just wonder if you play your game a ton and you start to see ball trails. I'm not a big fan of seeing ball trails across your pinball play field, especially on a ramp. I don't think I would like that too much. True. I definitely think, I mean, it sounds like if we fast forward three months, we're going to know whether or not there's wear and tear on those. We're going to know how reliable the upper play field mech is, you know, on the premium and LE. We're going to know, I mean, I'd hope that that drop down shot, which is pretty sick. I'm not going to lie on the premium, that drop-down shot where it's kind of a two-for-one shot. Oh, like the horseshoe? Yeah, I hope that's real. I think it's an awesome shot. I think that's a really cool mech that I hope is well utilized. There's a lot of that, and I don't know. I'm a pro buyer. I haven't ever had to run into those issues. But, yeah, when you look at the LEs and the premiums and LEs of the last five, six games, almost every one of them has had some sort of mech issue. but that I mean to Stern's credit they usually find a resolution for it in some way but yeah that was the the the ramps are definitely I mean all we're looking at right now is pictures we have a little bit of video but we really won't know until we stand in front of it how bad or good those look what do you think Tom terrible terrible what an le snob oh my gosh if Tom can't see his reflection in the backbox it's not a pinball machine he wants to own he's got to have that mirror he's got to have that mirror no honestly i think i think that i think the pros are goodbye to be honest with you yeah it's i agree yeah i'm i still it's funny i i just i just don't get why they did the plastic and not the habit trails that cost cut i i just don't get that yeah the the plastic is the one thing that's stopping me from getting a pro if it was wired i'd be getting a pro for sure but that's what's giving me pause so i need to see it in person before deciding which one i want to get but i'm leaning heavily towards the premium though for that reason alone what if you what if stern was between like all right we can either we can put metal habit trails but then you're going to have instead of a grogu plastic sculpt you're going to have just a piece of plastic back there with grogu or something you know like if if they took out something if they're going to add the mech there they're going to have to take something else away so or yeah we'll put that there but there's no razor crest in the middle of the play field you know are there would you make that trade off or no you don't think i mean me me personally i would prefer that but i know obviously that's not necessarily what the casual player what would sell to them yeah you know there's not too yeah there's not too many casuals that I talk to that are really overly concerned about geometry of a play field and how it relates to their shots and visually how it would feel seeing the ball come back. I don't hear them talking about that often. They mostly talk about what toys and what gimmicks are in it. Oh yeah. You know, that's, that's what I hear a lot of. You think about, I mean, obviously a pro, a lot of the goal there is to get those out on location, but you think about a track, the track mode, you know, like you got the Razor Crest right there in the middle of the field. You got Grogu in the corner on a premium though that play field is going to be tilted straight up and down you know with lights going off i mean anybody walking by that's going to be like that's you know how do i do that or they're going to want to get the ball back in near grogu's magnet to see if he bends over and eats it which obviously obviously he won't but i i think just from a track mode standpoint that this game is is going to uh claim a lot of quarters that's for sure there's going to be a lot of people putting money into this machine yeah it'll be a beast on location no doubt well guys i just looked up at the clock i just saw we're we're at about an hour um you know and i don't know how much people want to listen to us um not anymore yeah well we announced within 15 seconds we're the number one podcast so yeah number one off the record on the record set records all day yeah that's it so yeah I don't know how we wrapped this up I thought we were going to go for an abrupt ending which would have been so funny if you just cut it right there I mean I think pretty much we can right? we can I was just going to say real quick introductions my name is Joel Engelberth I'm happy to be on this I do just another pinball podcast and just another pinball stream go ahead guys I'm Travis and I'm from Marv Loco and I enjoy pinball and I'm Tom Graff and I'm from Fox Cities Pinball and you can find me on Twitch and YouTube just look up Fox Cities Pinball well there you go and we're recording this we'll see if people enjoy the conversation the joking around yeah and if this is well received maybe we'll do it again but um and then again maybe not yeah maybe this is yeah maybe this is a limited edition off the record on the record podcast yeah i like it a lot all right well i appreciate you guys this has been a fun fun conversation yeah thanks have a good night here we go ending go