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Episode 5 :: The Electric Bat Cast with Mike Vinikour

Electric Bat Cast·podcast_episode·1h 7m·analyzed·Oct 22, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Stern designer Mike Vinikour previews Bond updates and discusses industry history at Pinball Expo 2023.

Summary

Mike Vinikour, a lead designer at Stern Pinball, discusses his experience at Pinball Expo 2023 in Chicago, including a panel with legendary designer Lonnie D. Ropp on James Bond. He reveals upcoming Bond code updates featuring Spectre weapon perks with lasting gameplay effects, discusses design innovations like the 'swipe-a-ball' mechanic from Stranger Things, reflects on Gary Stern's role in saving the pinball industry, and shares personal anecdotes about the pinball community and his career evolution.

Key Claims

  • Spectre weapon perks are coming to Bond 'super soon, hopefully the next update'

    medium confidence · Mike Vinikour, Stern Pinball designer, speaking on Electric Bat Cast at Pinball Expo 2023

  • Next year (2024) is Pinball Expo 40th year

    high confidence · Mike Vinikour citing Rob Burke at Hall of Fame induction

  • Gary Stern is 'the man who saved pinball,' more so than Roger Sharpe

    high confidence · Mike Vinikour opinion, stated emphatically

  • Two new games debuted at Expo 2023: one from Jersey Jack (returning after 10 years), and Labyrinth from Perils of Fun (new startup)

    high confidence · Mike Vinikour describing games shown at the show

  • Swipe-a-ball mechanic will appear in James Bond 007 (Premium/LE) and LE but not Pro versions

    high confidence · Mike Vinikour explaining Bond rule design philosophy

  • An add-a-ball Spectre weapon perk for Bond will provide one add-a-ball per ball usable in multiballs

    medium confidence · Mike Vinikour describing specific Bond code feature in development

  • Martini shot on Bond now awards smart missiles and escalating points (up to 10 million)

    high confidence · Mike Vinikour describing recent Bond update

  • Stern nearly didn't survive the 2008 financial crisis

    high confidence · Mike Vinikour reflecting on industry history

Notable Quotes

  • “Spectre weapons are still coming...super soon, like hopefully the next update. But don't quote me on that because things may shift.”

    Mike Vinikour @ ~15:00 — Direct preview of upcoming Bond code update with caveat on timing

  • “Gary Stern is absolutely the man who saved pinball...there would have been no Jersey Jack, there would have been no Spooky, there would be none of this if it wasn't for Gary keeping that thing going.”

    Mike Vinikour @ ~50:00 — Strong assertion crediting Gary Stern over Roger Sharp for pinball's survival

  • “I love what I do and I owe it all to Gary. If it wasn't for him keeping it alive, I don't know where I'd be right now.”

    Mike Vinikour @ ~55:00 — Personal testimony to Gary Stern's impact on his career

  • “That eight-ball beyond thing was incredible...I'm pretty cynical, so if you impress me, like you did something right. That was a fantastic homebrew game.”

    Mike Vinikour @ ~35:00 — High praise for homebrew competition, validation of quality homebrew development

  • “I invented swipe-a-ball on Stranger Things...and then when I knew Bond was going to have a physical ball lock, I'm like, I'm bringing swipe-a-ball back to that.”

    Mike Vinikour @ ~70:00 — Design methodology: reusing successful mechanics across games with physical lock requirements

  • “The premium and the elite Bond will have that rule, but the pro will never get that...I'm not going to water it down and do it virtually.”

    Mike Vinikour @ ~72:00 — Clear tiering strategy: exclusive features for Premium/LE to justify price premium

  • “I didn't have the space, the money, I didn't know how the pandemic was going to play out...I wouldn't even go get the mail at my mailbox.”

    Mike Vinikour @ ~80:00 — Personal context: explains why he couldn't acquire Stranger Things Premium at release

  • “People come up to me and tell me such nice things about the work I did...sometimes it'll move me almost to tears...that's the highest form of praise.”

Entities

Mike VinikourpersonLonnie D. RopppersonGary SternpersonGeorge GomezpersonRoger SharpepersonRob BurkepersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    code_update: Upcoming Bond code update featuring Spectre weapon perks with persistent gameplay effects lasting entire game

    medium · Vinikour: 'Spectre weapons are still coming...super soon, like hopefully the next update' with specific mechanic details provided

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Stern's strategy of reserving premium features (swipe-a-ball, physical locks) for Premium/LE models to justify price premium

    high · Vinikour explicitly stated swipe-a-ball and future jetpack/bird lock features exclusive to Premium/LE, not Pro

  • ?

    design_innovation: Introduced in Stranger Things, mechanic allowing borrowed ball lock with required payback, being recycled in Bond Premium/LE

    high · Vinikour explained invention and naming of swipe-a-ball, confirmed reuse in Bond due to physical lock availability

  • ?

    homebrew_signal: Homebrew pinball quality improving year-over-year, exemplified by Eight-Ball Beyond's professional-level presentation

    high · Vinikour: 'homebrew crew is getting better every year' and praised Eight-Ball Beyond's art, LCD integration, rule set, and sound design

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Expo 2024 (40th year) potentially expanding to Wednesday-Saturday with Tuesday setup, spreading out overlapping panels

    medium · Rob Burke proposed expansion at Hall of Fame induction; Vinikour's panel conflicted with other events causing 20-minute loss

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.203

0:00
The guy that recorded mobile recordings called Metro Mobile that would record concerts that would broadcast on the radio here in Chicago. So this is like your Metro Mobile, but without the truck. Right. And what's great, this all runs off batteries. Does it really? We can go into the middle of the parking lot. What kind? Like a rechargeable battery? Whatever. Double A's. Double A's? Yeah. How many? Like six? That's it? That's it. That's nuts. A little SD card. And it records on an SD card? Wow. It does. Man, if they had this technology back when I used to record concerts, you know, like I'd smuggle in a tape recorder. Or a lot of times I had permission, but the bigger shows I would just sneak it in. Or even just the cell phones. I'd be like, man, if they had that in the early 90s, I would have so many great recordings, video and audio. We'd have some great skinny puppy bootlegs. Exactly, exactly, yeah. What a great way to start this. Here we are at Expo 2023. Yes. And we cornered Mike Vinicore. Cora, we're in the middle of the lobby. Yeah, we're in the hotel lobby. This is a really sweet, it's a very fancy hotel. It really is. The fanciest pinball show hotel. We've all been to many. We've been to them all. That's true, we've been to them all. This is the nicest hotel. And if you could see the hotel that, like, when I first started going to Expo at the end of the 90s, versus, like, the hotel that we're currently sitting in, And you wouldn't believe it was the same show or the same reason for being at this place, right? Right. Motel 6. Yeah. It was like Motel 6, the dumpiest hotel. It was like a small, dingy room with the worst bathroom. Right. And now this is like this lush, this massive suburban convention center that's very modern. We've come so far. Yeah, we have.
1:47
This pinball has come a long way in the last decade or so. And there's an Herbal Life convention here going on at the same time, so we see the MLM folks. I walked by their party fiesta. Yeah. Right here there was a room, and the sign just said party fiesta. And they had, like, these weird, like, candle LED light things. And I'm like, wow, there's some weird stuff going on there. I was tempted to walk in there, but I thought that they would assimilate me. It would be a little weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very soon you'd be selling us vitamins. Yes, yes. vitamins and like timeshare condo in Florida we walked by some people in the stairway what's your current level well there's some parallels there right and they weren't talking about Venom right nice segue this is why Stern pays me the middle box Venom's out here Bond's out here You're out here with Stern and Marco Specialty. Correct. Yeah, this is like, I don't know, the eighth or ninth stop on my tour of the year. But this is right in our backyard. So a lot of us from Stern come to this one because we all live pretty close. For sure. But even the guys that work remote, you know, like Mark Guidarelli, Corey, Elizabeth, like they all came out, you know, flew or drove in, you know, depending on their distance to come to this thing. I mean, this has always been the big deal show for the industry because it was also the first. Oh, really? Yeah. How long has it been around? Like 30 years, right? I think next year is the 30th year. No, next year is the 40th year. What? Wow. I think that's what Rob Burke was saying at the Hall of Fame induction last night. I think he said next year is the 40th, and he was asking, should we expand it by a day and make it go Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and have Tuesday be the setup, and then shift everything around and spread out the panel so they don't just all stomp on each other, which I would be for because my panel got stomped on. There's no wiggle room. They just go, okay, you have an hour from four to five, and then five to six.

Mike Vinikour @ ~62:00 — Demonstrates emotional investment in player satisfaction and community connection

Jersey Jack
company
[name withheld pending review]company
Spooky Pinballcompany
Williamscompany
Pinball Expoevent
James Bondgame
Stranger Thingsgame
Labyrinthgame
Eight-Ball Beyondgame
Venomgame
Electric Bat Castorganization

personnel_signal: Lonnie Moore's rare public appearance at Expo 2023 panel with Vinikour marked significant departure from usual avoidance of public events

high · Vinikour: 'first time in my whole career...he did a panel with me or even a podcast' despite Moore's preference for letting work speak

  • ?

    industry_signal: New pinball startups continuing to emerge (Perils of Fun), contrasting with traditional startup model of pre-announcement fundraising

    high · Vinikour noted Perils of Fun debuted Labyrinth without announcement, different from typical 'send money for roadmap' approach

  • ?

    product_strategy: Pro models intentionally limited to increase Premium/LE sales appeal by reserving advanced rule features for higher tiers

    high · Vinikour confirmed Bond Pro will never receive swipe-a-ball rule, stating 'I'm not going to water it down and do it virtually'

  • ?

    community_signal: Bond converting casual arcade players to home collectors; example of player at venue becoming enthusiast enough to purchase Premium

    high · Vinikour described arcade regular converting to Bond Premium owner after heavy venue play

  • ?

    historical_signal: Vinikour challenges common narrative, crediting Gary Stern (not Roger Sharp) as primary savior of modern pinball industry

    medium · Vinikour: 'Gary Stern is absolutely the man who saved pinball...the true man who saved pinball that they should make a movie and a book about is Gary Stern'

  • $

    market_signal: Market supporting three-tier pricing model (Pro/Premium/LE) with distinct feature sets, justifying higher prices through exclusive mechanics

    high · Vinikour discussing Bond Premium/LE exclusive rules and explaining rationale to justify spend differential

  • ?

    venue_signal: Arcade venue operators and attendees actively engaged in pinball community, forming core audience for show demos and discussion

    high · Vinikour spent most of show 'talking to people,' with fans and customers approaching throughout venue

    • 3:53
    It's like in a show when the opening band plays a little too long. Everybody's screwed.
    4:00
    In the case of the one that Lonnie and I did last night, we had to wheel a machine in there and set it up, so we lost almost 20 minutes of our panel, which was unfortunate. That was very cool. I learned so much about Bond from that panel. Thank you. So I've done a bunch of stuff to talk about Bond. I've been on a bunch of streams and whatnot. This was the first time in my whole career at Stern and doing five games with Lonnie that he did a panel with me or even a podcast. But the fact that he even came to the show to do it was a really big deal because he normally doesn't like to do those things. He likes to let his work do the speaking. He doesn't like to be in the spotlight. And it meant the world to me that he came and did it with me. And it was a real treat. I mean, someday when I'm old and retired or, you know, I'm ready to leave this planet, I will seriously look back on yesterday as one of my career highlights that he and I got to do that together because I'm very fond of working with him. I'm glad I could experience that. Yeah, so that was special to me, you know. It was weird because I realized yesterday at that panel that I had never seen him before. I just kind of assumed that I've, you know, come across all the designers, all the living designers over the years. Most of us will get out in one show or another, you know, especially this one. But he just doesn't like to do it, you know. He works really hard, and he's like, you know what, that's time I could be working on our game. And I admire the dedication. I love that work ethic. Yeah, I do. Like, he's got a really strong work ethic. But, man, I wish he got out more, you know, but it made it more special, you know. Very good, very good. Any cool stuff coming out for Bond that you can talk about? Yeah, without going into super details, but I could tell you some of the stuff. And I've talked about this in the past, so I'm not speaking out of school or where I'm not going to get in trouble for this. Sure. So the biggest thing is the Spectre weapon perks are still coming. And that's coming, like, super soon, you know, like, hopefully the next update. But don't quote me on that because things may shift depending on, you know, it's really up to, like, what Lonnie can get in in the time frame that we would like to get another release out. but every time you do one of those Spectre weapons, each one will have a perk that will last for the rest of the game so you'll get something like, for example it's not even a spoiler because I said it was going to happen there's going to be an add-a-ball Spectre weapon perk whichever one I end up assigning it to, it'll be one of the ones that takes multiple shots to finish because that's a power one you're going to get an add-a-ball once per ball that you can use in a multi-ball so you'll start with one so you can pick a multi-ball to use it in Per ball. Once per ball. But we're not using it or losing it. If you get it on ball one, then you'll start every ball where you've got to add a ball in your holster so you can resurrect a multi-ball or add a ball into a multi-ball that's running. I always use the add-a-ball to resurrect a multi-ball, right? Right. You drain down to one ball, and before it gets to the trough, bam, you're going to hit the button. And then now your multi-ball gets extended. For sure. It's really the only right way to use it. It really is. And you know what? And there was a time when add-a-ball was still pretty new that I didn't know that. And then, so I would just, you know, I'd stumble across it. I'd be like, oh, now I've got more balls. I'm like, no, that's not actually normally a good thing. Like, it's easier to control less. Like, two is actually perfect because you trap up one, and then you just start sniping shots with the other one, right? Right. So I always play multi-ball now where when I've got the ball saver, I'll be more chaotic and just flip on the fly. But as soon as that thing starts flashing fast and it's about to go out, Then I start trapping up, and now I'm going to hunt and pack. I love how you added the martini shot because I've been hitting that shot over and over again for like a year, and I get no bonus. But now you made sure I get a bonus for it. And you get a smart missile. Oh, for the first one? No, every martini shot you make will give you a smart missile as long as your holster is not full. Now, if you've got four smart missiles and you do it, you're just going to get the points. And the points are it starts at a million. It goes up a million every time you do it. It caps at ten. So for the rest of the game, once you hit 10, it's 10 million, 10 million, 10 million, right? Yeah. But every time you do one, you'll get a smart missile as well, as long as you have a spot in your holster to play. Super cool. As soon as we found out about the martini shot, after your conference, we ran to the floor. Yeah. And I told Rachel about it. We started playing, and she got the GC on one of the bonds. Nice. And what I love is there's hundreds of games down there, and we go down and play the games that we own. Yeah. So you guys are like the opposite of me. I go to a show or if I play in a pinball league, a lot of guys, especially in a league, you're competing. I don't care if I win or lose in a league. I'm there for the social aspect. The fun of pinball for me is if the three of us were hanging out together and playing games, that's the joy of pinball for me. I don't like the competition. Sure, it's fun to be like, who of the three of us got the better score? But I don't like to put money on the line. I don't even play those dollar games. I don't have the kangaroo ball sack thing that all the hip kids at this pinball have, and somehow nobody's giving me one.
    9:02
    I don't do any of that stuff, right? That's record money to me. I'm not wasting a single dollar on your pinball game.
    9:09
    But I love to play with my friends, right? I've just completely lost my train of thought of why I was talking about this. I think you were getting into, like, when you go to a conference, you like to play the games that I don't have in my basement. Yeah. So people are like, why did you pick that game? I'm like, because I don't have it. Why didn't you pick Adam's Family? You have that game. I'm like, because I can play Adam's Family in my pajamas anytime I want. Right. But I don't have this game at home, so that's a treat to me to play something I don't have. So when I come to these shows, I'll play other companies' games, check them out, and I'll play any game I don't have that's interesting to me. I've got a lot of older favorites that I like to play. I love to play them at these things. I don't have any access to them any other way. Sure. So which rare games have you played this weekend? You know what? I can count the number of games of pinball I've played at this show on one hand. Right. And three of them were that eight-ball game, which was the coolest thing I saw. Eight-ball beyond. Yeah, eight-ball beyond. That thing was incredible. And I saw that at the Tacoma show, I believe, this year, too. And it's impressive. Yes. So hats off. I didn't speak to the man who made it, but hats off to him for doing a fantastic job. I'm impressed. I'm pretty cynical, so if you impress me, like you did something right. That was a fantastic homebrew game. It really was. And the homebrew games overall, you know, you can tell that the homebrew crew is getting better every year. They really are. I mean, that thing, like, it really had the whole package. It was really cool. Yeah. I played a game of Venom in our booth just so I could get the badge, you know. But honestly, like most of these shows, unless somebody challenges me for a prize, which I don't do at this show, I don't get to play it very much because I'm talking to people all the time. you know i did that panel i'm doing this thing with you but people like come up to me almost you know throughout and they stop me as i'm walking around and i love it i love talking everybody this is why my voice is so blown out so i spend most of the show talking to all the fans and the customers which is the main reason why they send me so right the number of games i play is very small at a given day you know for sure for sure yeah the uh the homebrew stuff was absolutely amazing. That game is like just finished. It feels very complete. That 8-ball beyond. Yeah, I mean, it had full art, it had LCD art, it had a full rule set, the sounds were really good, the music was cool. I mean, like I said, I was really impressed. Very cool, very cool. The custom targets that I'm trying to figure out how they worked, they're a little, they looked like cast resin with LEDs inside. Yeah, and they were shaped like pool balls, basically, right? And they lit up with RGB lights. Yeah, I don't know how they're actually triggered. They didn't look like they moved. They didn't. It's almost like, I don't know if they're touch sensitive or what, but they were cool. I'm going to find out before we leave. And the lights were like, you know, just the way that the lights were arranged and the colors that he used was really well done. It was very well done. Yeah. You know, you've been telling us about the most magnificent cheeseburger on the planet. For years. We've always traveled around with Mike doing all these shows. and he's like, wait till you guys come to Chicago. I'm taking you to Kumar's Corner. Kumar's. K-U-M-A-S. Kumar's Corner. Yeah. We finally got to experience it. And if you want to see the image, it's on our Instagram. Oh, nice. Yeah. These gigantic burgers. What was that burger called? The Sour Vein. So all the... I hit this thing too close to my face. Can you hear me better now? It was distorting. Yeah. So all the burgers at Kuma's are named after heavy metal bands.
    12:43
    Is that better? Yeah, you're good. So the Sour Vein was the one that you guys and I both ordered. And it's basically chicken and waffles with maple drizzle and raspberry aioli on top of a bacon cheeseburger. A half-pound bacon cheeseburger on a pretzel roll. Kale and I split one. I ate the whole thing because I'm gross. I look glutton It took a lot of years of training When I first started eating those I ate your fries Yeah you ate my fries I'm not allowed to eat the fries I ate like 3 or 4 just to get a taste I cheated by having the chicken Was fried on there Normally I can't eat fried chicken But I'll break the rule for that You gotta have a cheat meal I'm good for 2 or 3 sour veins a year And now I'm cut off I said until spring So I won't go back until we see you in the spring yeah you guys come back in the spring you stay at my house you got a room um and then we'll go there we'll listen to some vinyl oh yeah we can i mean that you got how many weeks do you guys got i mean years yeah you guys just come over for two years and we'll all get through half of them um yeah so uh it's culinary perfection was what that thing is it was absolutely beautiful um what what else is going what else uh have you seen out here that has piqued your interest, games, accessories, mods? I don't understand how every couple months there seems to be another pinball company. So now there's that new one that did the, I don't remember their call, they did that Labyrinth game. Perils of Fun. Perils of Fun, yeah. So they came out, so two games debuted at this show. One was from Jersey Jack, who had been around for 10 years. Sure. But here's another new startup that just came out of nowhere, and they're like, here's our game. I'm like, I've got to give them props just in the fact that, like, they did it where they're like, they didn't even show you, they didn't even announce, like, we're a thing until they had something to show you. Wow, I love that. Yeah. I really love that. Which is very different from, like, the typical startup group of, like, hey, here's what we're going to do. Send us $1,000. Yeah, send us some money, you know, and then, you know, here's our roadmap, and then nobody ever gets their game and everybody loses their money. Speaking of that, the way the industry's headed, you've seen ups and downs. I've survived three of them, yeah. Three of the downs, you know. I've done the roller coaster at least three times in my almost 30-year career. So right now, this is incredibly impressive. Did you think you'd ever see this? No. So, first of all, when I worked at Williams, and I was on the video game side at that point. Well, I was working in both, but I was an employee at that point. And Midway spun off, so I was a Midway employee, but I still was in charge of the pinball field test, so I placed all those games. But so when we closed pinball, you know, and then Gary Stern, you know, Stern pinball was the only game that left in town. I really admired his tenacity to, like, wow. I'm like, if Williams didn't survive, how is anybody going to survive? Like, we were the biggest game in town.
    15:48
    But Gary had the tenacity and the wherewithal, and he just did it right. Like, he knew how to survive even at the worst of times. And times got even worse, I think, around 2008. This was before I was an employee. You know, Stern almost didn't make it, you know. Like, that was, pinball was almost extinct. Sure. And nobody, I can guarantee you, there's not a soul on this planet that could have saved, you know, kept pinball going other than Gary Stern.
    16:17
    Everyone says Roger Sharp is the man who saved pinball. No, Gary Stern is absolutely the same. Robert Sharp was the man who saved pinball in New York City and to a lesser degree in other cities where after that I guess that's not gambling we should make it okay in our city too that was certainly hugely impactful but the true man who saved pinball that they should make a movie and a book about is Gary Stern because there would have been no Jersey Jack there would have been no Spooky there would have been none of this there would be no pinball expo still if it wasn't for Gary keeping that thing going and he really could have gone and done anything else He could have gone into the gambling machine He could have gone into any other business he wanted right But he wanted to keep pinball alive and I super grateful for it because I living out the best years of my career which is about to turn 30 working at Stern. It's the greatest job I ever had with the greatest, most talented people. And I wake up every day, I'm like, man, I'm so blessed in life because I love what I do. And most people don't get to say they love what they do. I mean, you guys get to do it. We're a rare breed. Most people are like, this is my job that I have to do for the paycheck, but I hate it and I can't wait to go home. I love what I do and I owe it all to Gary. I mean, and the people like George who hired me, but it's Gary's company. If it wasn't for him keeping it alive, I don't know where I'd be right now. I didn't want to be in video games anymore. That's why I wanted to come back to pinball.
    17:38
    He is truly the man who saved pinball. For sure. I was telling Rachel that the other day. He can still go do whatever he wants but he's here. He's actually here This weekend. Right. All over the floor. Yeah, Gary's been everywhere. And I'll tell you, that man. He out-partied me this weekend. He out-parties everybody.
    17:57
    I used to say, like, if I get to Gary's age and I have half the energy that he has at his age, I'm really succeeded in life and I'm probably better than all of my peers. I don't have half the energy Gary has currently at my age. It's amazing. Yeah, you're about half his age and I don't have half his energy. He's snowboarding. He's riding motorcycles. He's running the most successful pinball machine. He's unbelievable. He's out on his boat on the weekends in the summer here. I just turned 54 years old, and I think I've got a third of the energy that Gary has.
    18:30
    How does he do it? I don't know how he does it. I'll have to ask him. Gary has truly found the found he needs it. Maybe it's because he loves what he does, but I don't know. My health isn't getting any better, so this pinball is not reverse aging me, but it certainly worked for him. But he might have drank all the magic formula and didn't leave any for the rest of us. We don't drink. Yeah, that might be the thing. That might be our problem. Yeah, maybe vodka is the key to youth. I don't know. I don't like to drink, though, so I don't think I'm going to start. I just hope I can have some fraction of the energy he has when I get to his age. I'd like it now.
    19:03
    Right. These shows are exhausting. This job is exhausting. I travel so much. I love this or I wouldn't be doing it. They didn't force this on me. They asked me if I would do it, and they said it's totally up to you if you want to travel like this and tour. I'm like, yeah, I love this. I love meeting people and talking to the people that play our games. That's my favorite part of this whole gig. Even more, as much as designing stuff that I get to design for the company, that's almost even better. That's what I tell them. So many people ask us what is the best part about owning an arcade. Hands down, it's the people. It really is. The folks that play pinball machines, that build these things, that sell them, every aspect of this industry it holds the most interesting people in the world i mean i've had people come up to me at these shows and tell me such nice things about that like work that i did that they knew that i did this on in this game yeah and they tell me how much it loves they love it or it's my or it's their favorite game or stuff like that and like it's sometimes it'll move me almost to tears where like i feel you i can't believe like that something i did had such an impact on these people that they're having so much fun and that's all i ever wanted was like i want something that i want to have fun with that i want i wish to be in my own home yeah and hopefully other people like it and when they come to tell me like just how much they like it like some people are like james bond is my favorite game i'm like that's like i'm just you couldn't give me a higher compliment they spent money on something that i had a hand in making with the people i work with and they loved what i did so much that they spent a lot of money to have that and they tell me how much they play it. I never get sick of hearing that. That's the highest form of praise. We have a guy at our arcade who's there every morning before we get there and he pulls up a stool, puts his beer and his headphones and drink and all that stuff, his cell phone on the stool and he parks in front of Bond and that's all he plays. Wow. Yeah. I mean, short of walking up to me and handing me a box full of rare punk rock records, all the ones I'm still missing, Right. Right? That's the highest form of praise that you could give, right? Yeah. Yeah, it feels good. And then he bought one, and now we're about to. And now you lose that. Now we're going to lose that. This is a true story. He loved it so much at our arcade, now he bought it. Did he buy a premium? He bought a premium. Wow. Yep. That's the way to go, I think, on Bond. Nothing against a pro, but I know when I play a pro at the shows, because I have a premium in my house for development. I miss the features a lot. And plus, like, there's still a couple more features, you know, rule-type things that are coming in the game that will be only on the Premium and LE, you know, because they will make use of the devices that the Pro doesn't have. Probably the Jetpack. Like a Jetpack and the Bird One Lock, you know. Cool. Like, I talked about this one before, so I'll mention it again.
    21:53
    I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Swipe-a-Ball feature on the Stranger Things Premium and LE.
    21:58
    Do you guys know that feature, that rule on the Stranger Things? Okay, so how it works, I invented this on that game. if you have a ball in Stranger Things on the magnet lock the TK lock, the physical ball lock so that's the TK multi-ball, you're advancing towards that but if you're in another multi-ball on the premium LE you can press the button and release that lock ball and use it as an add-a-ball, another multi-ball but then when that ends you have to relight the lock and put the ball back that you borrowed so you have to make a little bit more work It's like borrowing a ball and then paying it back with a small amount of interest. Okay. So then it's also a risk and reward of, like, do I want to keep advancing towards the TK multiball? Mm-hmm. Or do I want to use it to extend this multiball that might be worth more points or a wizard mode, right, that's a multiball? So you get to basically borrow against your own thing with having to do a little bit of added work to put back what you borrowed. So is that something like that? So swipe a ball? So I called it swipe a ball. Mm-hmm. I can't remember. I invented the actual, that mechanic and the rule. And then I don't remember which one of us. It was between Lonnie and me and Brian, and we went through a bunch of names. And then I don't know who came up with the swipe a ball. It might have been me. But anyway, we all decided that that was going to be the name. And I'm like, this is going to be the name that I'm going to use if I use this rule again. And then when I knew that Bond was going to have a physical ball, I'm like, I'm bringing swipe a ball back to that. So the premium and the elite Bond will have that rule, but the pro will never get that. and for those listening at home we will never add it to the pro and stranger things like it's part of the design was you have to have a physical ball lock I'm not going to do it virtually and it's again it's something to like to add more value to the people that spent the more money on the more expensive game like you know give them more for their money right sure so I'm not going to water it down and do it with virtual locks right I got you thank you for rerunning stranger things yeah because now we get a chance to purchase one we wanted a brand new one. You and me both. So when we made that game, that was my largest design role until James Bond.
    24:02
    The year that we made it, we were in the middle of a pandemic. I didn't have a lot of money at the time. I still don't really, but at the time money was tight and I didn't know how this pandemic thing was going to play out.
    24:14
    And I didn't have any space. So I'm like, well, I don't want anybody coming to my house in the middle of a pandemic. I'm afraid of the world. I wouldn't even go get the mail at my mailbox. I made my now ex-wife. Tons and tongs. Kitchen tongs. So when I would get records and packages in the mail, like my ex-wife, she was my wife at the time. You didn't invite your ex-wife? I didn't invite my ex-wife just to bring in the mail. She didn't like me that much enough when we were married, let alone to do that when I'm not married. No, but my wife at the time, she was a little braver than me. And so I'm like, you've got to go get the mail. I'm not touching the mailbox. I didn't know. I was afraid to touch anything. and when she'd bring like packages in if i've ordered records online i'd spray them with the lysol disinfectant spray and let them sit there for hours before i even open the thing up you're just waiting yeah i want to play it i want to play it i'm like but i can't touch it it's going to give me covid because again we didn't know how you catch it yeah we had no clue right so um so i'm like well i can't sell a game because no one's coming in this house i want to let my own family in the house i mean i barely let even your wife yeah i barely let the wife and the kid come in the house that they left you know like because i'm like you step out of the house you're putting me at risk and don't go to your family's house to go so visit your relatives and like don't go to your boyfriend's house you know my stepdaughter yeah and they all kept doing these things right and we're scared they're sneaking around yeah i mean they were just like they're just like screw you we got to go live our life and then you know how i got covid because my ex-wife was less than careful you know wow and that and that so this was before there were vaccines and it was i was I'm going to die. Thankfully, I didn't, obviously. Yeah, you're here.
    25:46
    She was less than careful, and you got a disease. Yep. Yeah, that's totally exactly what happened. And now you're no longer married. That's the TLDR. Yep, that totally is. That's the perfect TLDR. You just summed up my marriage in one sentence.
    26:02
    My former marriage, I'm no longer married. Anyway, I didn't have the space and the money, and I couldn't make money by selling something. I had stuff I was planning on selling. so I'm like alright I'll get one next year and hopefully this stuff passes then next year came and we were only running the pros and I'm like are we going to run more premiums and they're like no I'm like really I didn't get one and they're like no sorry so I'm like oh man so I didn't get one and then I kept my development one and at some point they made me bring it back and I'm like so now I've got this empty cabinet which I put other playfields in for work but it was a Stranger Things cabinet and I'm like man That was my largest design role. So you still have that cabinet. Yeah, with no play field in it. And any time you're testing games, you just swap out the play field. I don't do the testing so much anymore. I do other things now. Everything I do is design and development work. But every time I'm working on a project, I put the play field for what I'm doing, or more than one. And I'll still help out when I've got some downtime with the testing. So I've got a couple of development cabinets, one of which was my Stranger Things that was in my office before the pandemic. But now it's just an empty cabinet. So you're going to get a Stranger Things premium? So I'm going to buy the premium, yeah. I'm buying myself a premium. As soon as we announce we're going to run it, I told those guys, that's my game this year. I was going to buy my Bond this year, so now that has to wait until next year. So I'm like, give me a premium and give me the UV kit. I was about to add. That's a must. Yeah, absolutely. It's a must. And we're making those again, too. Yes, we ordered one. And I think we're doing the accessories again, too, like maybe the toppers. I hope the shooter not. Yeah, I like the D20. So that was my idea, wasn't it? Was it like they're like... Yeah, save one for us. So Brian and Lonnie and I, we had these design meetings all the time, and we would have these weekly meetings with the project managers, and they said, okay, well, did you think about your accessories? Like what's your art blade going to be? What's your shooter knob going to be? And what's your top going to be? And I immediately said, well, we should do the 20-sided dice and light it up for the shooter knob. and everybody was like, that's perfect. And then Brian designed the topper, and then the artist did the art blades, you know, as part of the whole package. Sure, good deal. So that was the accessory package for that. But, yeah, so I'm very fond of that shooter knob. Even though I wish the die was a little smaller, it's a little big, but I can still make the skill shots with it, so it still works. Oh, very cool, very cool. So I think we're running that again, too. I don't know if you guys have announced it. Is there going to be a software update? I cannot confirm or deny anything like that. There you go. It has not been announced. Right, yeah. We never announce software updates ever, you know. Okay. When we do them, we do them and then they come out. But we never announce anything because we never like to make a promise that for some reason, what if you can't keep it? Right. It's better to just let's just do them and put them out. There you go. The more you start advertising stuff and you have release dates, if you miss release dates, then everybody gets mad. People get sad. They get mad. Good point. They think that we're liars. so i mean and that you've always hated that right right right so we have a hard rule of like we never talk about anything in the future we never say here's people will ask me hey when's the next bond update coming up like i don't i can't tell you right i'm like i can tell you that we're working on even know right yeah i mean it's clear that we're working on because the game's not at 1.0 so i can legally tell you yeah we're working on it but that could take you know more time than last one, it depends. Because not everything that goes in the game takes the same amount of time to make. And Lonnie is the only programmer working on that game. So it's all on his plate. So he's got a lot to do. I do the rules with him, but I can't write any of the code with him. It's all on him. For sure. You used to do the games on location testing. I do not do that anymore, but I did when I first started at Stern. And way back in the Williams Valley Midway Days. I was in charge of that, too, for a couple of years. So that data that you used to get from putting a game at Logan or whatever,
    30:09
    do you guys, I know you're not in charge of it, but do you all still get that from physical, like going out and testing them, or is that all via Insider Connected now? We still get it the old way, too. Like, you know, certain operators that we're friendly with or we have relationships with that will send us their audits, you know, like TJ and Ken will send us audits because they were, you know, we were doing field testing through them too, you know, not just locally. Like we would, you know, we would ship them machines and work out a deal with them to do testing. So we get some of that, you know, sent to us the old school way. And then some of it, you know, I don't know how much, because I don't handle the back end stuff of like Insider Connected, I don't know how much of that data we're getting currently or how much they still have to implement to let us get that sort of thing. I don't really know. That's a little bit out of my jurisdiction to know how much, if any, that we're getting yet through Insider Connected. So that stuff, that informs game updates. Oh, for sure. So we look at the audits, you know, because you can just dump them to the USB stick. And so, like, you know, a location that we have a relationship with, I'll be like, hey, can you dump your audits once a week? to a stick and then just email them to us. Like how often are people making this martini shot? Yeah. So we absolutely have, historically, this goes back to before I was in the industry. Once they had the ability to even track things like this, so we did this at Williams in the 90s. I'd go there and get audits out of the pinball machines back then, but there was no Internet, so I would go and have to write them down. You had your chart. Yeah, I had a chart, or they made a special board. that it was, I had a prototype shadow that we had on field test that had the interface board still in it, and it allowed me to hook up a laptop and then dump the audits somehow to that laptop. It was very rudimentary. I didn't realize you worked on shadow. I did not work on the shadow, but I mean, I worked at the company at the time it came out. Wow. So you and Brian Eddy back together again. Well, I didn't work on that project with them. I started in 94, and I think Shadow was in 94.
    32:22
    But anyway, mine happened to be a prototype, the game that was in my house for like 24 years. Before that, it belonged to the sound guy, Dan Ford, and he gave me that game, his game. And his was one of the field test games because the designers used to get the field test games when the test was over. That was the games they got for working on them. And he didn't want it anymore, but it still happened to have that interface board in there. And that was a selling point for when I sold it. A, it was a prototype, so I got more money for it. And B, it's got this board in it, too, that we didn't release.
    32:53
    So whoever the guy that bought that's got some rare piece of Williams history in there. So tracking the audits, we did that even 30 years ago. And it's hugely helpful to know how to tune your games. Like, oh, nobody's getting the extra ball enough. We've got to make it easier. Nobody's getting these features. Like, they're too hard. So, yeah, we look at that stuff all the time. I mean, it's a huge help. Good deal. And so that's one of those things where people are like, well, why don't they just release at 1.0? Here's a huge advantage to why you wouldn't want that, right? Because it's a much better game after you get real-world feedback. You can fine-tune it to make it a way more fun game. Because we can think of tons of games from the 80s and 90s where if you could go back in, like, man, they really should have done this, like, a little bit different. God, there's so many 90s Williams games that I would like to unbreak. Unbreaking meaning like all right Theater of Magic is a one game If you playing for strictly points The ramp right No it the left orbit You shoot the left orbit forever And then, like, here's a story of how I know this. I was playing in my pinball league finals, and I somehow made A group. Usually I'm like a high-level B, right? Because I play with, like, Lyman and Keith Johnson, the Sharp brothers, and the Sharp dad. So like Jason Werdrick, like all these top-level local guys. What a rough league. Yeah, I mean, it was like all these killers, right? These were like the top players of the time, and some of those guys are still up there, right? So I made it to A that year because I just had a particularly great qualifying season. And my first fight of finals, it was like a double elimination, and you play three games, right?
    34:42
    So my first fight of the finals was against Lyman. and so I took Lyman to like Centaur and I beat him and then he got really really really mad and because usually he can wipe the floor with me I mean I could keep up with him but he was so much better than me. You'd say this was Lyman's lament? It was so I'm like fuck I just made my friend mad at me and thankfully it didn't last because he was the reason why I have a job at Stern anyway so he got so mad and then when you lose you get to choose game or order. So he chose game and he took me to Theater of Magic. I'm like, well, I can certainly keep up with him on this one because I know I have this game. So I play my normal thing where I'm getting multi-balls, I'm starting modes, I get like a billion. He just shoots the left orbit for 25 minutes on one ball.
    35:35
    Spell Theater, shoot the thing and collect it. Rinse, repeat. And he beat me by like two and a half billion points. And he didn't start a single mode. it was just spell theater get the thing spell theater get the i mean he made one shot and then however many letters in theater it's like i don't know 32 letters yeah um then he would shoot the trunk once and then repeat the 32 letters right and i'm like call me when i'm when it's my turn and i went upstairs and got lunch you know because where they were serving lunch at this guy's house and then i couldn't no matter what i tried i'm like well first of all i'm not doing that because I would put myself to sleep.
    36:12
    So he beat me by over 2.5 billion points, and he didn't start a single mode. And I'm like, Lyman, you ruined this game for me, and now I'm going to have to sell it. And I'm not lying. I put an ad on – In the paper. Yeah, in the paper, right? And I said, you know, Theater Magic for sale, home use only. It used to belong to the lead programmer, and he gave it to me. And he got it new in the box. Wow. And I had it for 20 years. and it was immaculate. It still looked like it came out of the box. I had one mod on it and I had a bunch of extra shit including a lot of rare promo stuff and a couple things that only went to the team. I included all that and then I traded it for a Tron Legacy and a stack of cash, which I then wasted on an engagement ring.
    36:58
    Wow. But anyway, I wasn't kidding. I never could look at that. To this day, I can't look at that game and think of anything other than, like, if I want any points in this game, I just have to shoot the left orbit for a year and a half. So he wrecked it for me. I'm glad you told me that trick because if I have to play it in a tournament, that's what I'm doing. Get really good at shooting the left orbit and then shooting the trunk to collect the hurry up. I might cut that out of this video just so nobody else figures it out. But if I could go back, like we just said, to fix a broken game, I do the air quotes. I guess they see it because we've got a camera. I would fix that. And in that game, I'd also actually have the wizard mode do something because that guy was lazy. Yeah. But, yeah, there's a lot of that stuff. So how it's different now, though, than in the old days was back in the old days, there was no such thing as the Internet, or it was so new that – and there certainly was no such thing as a smartphone, and people didn't walk around with digital cameras. Right. And no one's taking pictures of games and going to develop film. And then mailing a picture. Yeah, and then mailing it to everybody they know in the pinball community. Back then, there was no such thing as the Internet, really. It was still at a very rudimentary level, and there was no smartphones, no digital cameras.
    38:17
    I think I even carried a pager still at the time. I mean, this is what we're talking about, right? Boobies. Right. So we would put, at Williams, and even on the video side of Midway Games, we would put a game out like three months before we would actually go into production. At a local arcade. Because you could do that. We would put them at a few local arcades. Like, I was in charge of this whole program for a number of years at the tail end of that company's existence. Okay. So, like... Would people freak out? They'd be like, oh, the new games here? Would they call their friends and, hey, come play this? Yes. They'd go outside on the pay phone. They absolutely would. And they knew where we tested games because we had, like, a handful of regular test sites that we worked with that were, like, the bigger, better arcades and bars in the area. Like, we didn't really hide them. But we had never announced, like, hey, we're putting a game. We would just show up one day with a new game. I would call the location and say, hey, I'm bringing you a game on Friday. Here's the spot I want you to put it in. And then we would just show up on Friday after the normal day shift was over. Usually at dinnertime, we'd show up with a new game, and I'd drop it in there, and then the people that were there would play it. And then they would go tell their friends, and the word would get out. But on a national level, nobody outside of Chicago was seeing this unless they happened to be coming into Chicago to visit. Sure. And I don't know that there was that many times that people came from out of state, but there might have been some really hard cores that did. I know they did that when we put out Pinball 2000. Right. Yeah. So video games and pinball manufacturers did this. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, and we did both back then. So, like, I remember when we put Mortal Kombat 3 on test. First we put it at a place called Diversions, and, you know, everybody went crazy for it. Then we put it at Dennis'. and so by the time we get it you know we usually put out about you know between six and ten of them you know at different six to ten locations in the chicago area in the city proper and in the suburbs you know we and it was in a variety of places like a bar a hotel you know we had lots of arcades and we worked a lot of all the all the best arcades we would most of them were our you know i vaguely remember uh i had subscriptions all the video game magazines i vaguely remember There would be sections where, like, the so-and-so game was seen at this bar. Yeah, yeah. That's what we would do. And then we would, you know, I would go watch the players play, like, Mortal Kombat. Just looking like a creep. Yeah. But, I mean, I would look. Did you have a clipboard? No, no, no. I would just commit all this shit to memory, you know. And everybody knew I worked there, so it wasn't like it was a secret. But I also looked like a gamer at the time. I was a gamer at the time. Right, right. So, you know, it wasn't out of the ordinary. and they all knew us and they actually liked when we'd come there because they're like, oh, I want to show off and show them how good I am. Yeah, I bet. Stuff like that or they'd come ask us questions but a lot of places, you know, where it wasn't full of hardcore fans, they didn't know me so I just looked like a guy watching people play the game. Maybe I was waiting to play. I just didn't ever play it. You didn't put your quarter on the machine. I never put my token or quarter on the machine, no. And then I would go back and tell them what I saw, you know, and be like, all right, here's what I'm seeing. How cool. Or on the pinball machines. In the video games, too, we would dump the audits. I'd have to write it down with a pen and a paper on the video game side, but the pinball guys figured out that little board so you could dump it to a laptop, and I had to bring this laptop. A briefcase-sized laptop. Yes, it was. It was like a briefcase-sized laptop, and plug it in, and then hook up this modem cable to it. Wow. Like, do, like, a bunch of voodoo just to get it to, like, print the audits to where I could capture it somehow. It was really very, like, crude. But it worked, you know, for 1990, mid to late 90s technology. That was the shit, you know. Right, right. So, yeah. And then we would tune the games accordingly. And they would go into the box usually at 1.0. Unless you're Mortal Kombat, then you come out, you know, with, like, fairly bare bones, enough to be playable and fun. But we would add more stuff. Like there'd be missing characters, you know, because the demand was so high and it took so long to make that game that they're like, we've got to ship them. And then we'll up send them. But back then we had to send out ROMs, and it was much harder to update games and much more expensive. Well, yeah, it was about that. So that's how you would add characters. You would ship ROMs. We'd ship ROMs, yeah. I mean, the art had to be in there, but the gameplay part, so we could have completely not in the game, but they exist on the art ROMs because those we'd have to lock down back then. But the program ROMs were two ROMs, so we could change that. And then once we enabled the character in that, then it was playable, because the art and the sound associated with it was already in there that nobody could see.
    42:57
    But nowadays, like if I were to take, you know, pretend Venom didn't come out yet, and we didn't announce it yet, and if I wanted to put it on test now, I can't, because it doesn't matter where I could put it. Like I could put it, you know, at the worst, like, business in any town. like worst meaning like they don't get a lot of customers right right the most like yeah the less the least amount of customers walk in this place yeah give it like an hour and then one person inside it's on pin side it's everywhere it's all over social media and then you can't hide anything these days right sure so then that you know then maybe people would know what the next game was you know and you can't do like now what you could do them because technology and the world is right and everything is just instant. Everything, you know, information is at your fingertips at all times. Sure, sure. Which is good for pinball updates. It's great for pinball updates. Because you can set stuff up over the air. We love that. Now you don't even have to use the USB sticks if you're Insider Connected. Just turn on your game and go get something to eat and come back and now your game is new. Yeah, and we have it set to automatically do that. Yeah. We'll come in, like, boom. I think they default to that setting now. Okay. That started with maybe James Bond. But before that, you had to opt in, and now it's defaulted to on. You can opt out, I think. I'm pretty sure that's what we changed that to. We'll check it when we get home. Yeah, so as long as your game's on, it's going to update it, and you don't have to lift a finger. Love that. Now you've got a better game. Yeah, right on. Right on. Cool. So should we head to the game show? I heard there's a game show going on. We've got another hour. Do we really? Yeah, those guys don't go on until 9 or 9.15. Oh, man. Hopefully I can get on stage. We need you on stage. You should probably host it. I told Kyle to kind of rig it. Here's what you could do, though, if you really want to participate. I'm bummed out that those guys didn't ask me to do it, and they asked Kyle. I would have loved to do that. That's fun. You want to be Vanna. I do. Here's the idea. You two host a competing game show in the next room over. So wait, they're Let's Make a Deal? We could be like Joker's Wild.
    45:02
    That was a better game. That was a good one. I love that show. But you could knock, like when Kyle's walking to the thing to meet up with those guys, just hit him in the back of the head and knock him down and take his fancy Hawaiian shirt, put it on. We're sharing a room with him. We could just take all the clothes. The next time he goes up there to go to the bathroom. Yeah, just go grab some of his clothes and put them on. He's got a gold medal in jiu-jitsu. And then I'll say, I need you to come with me right away. I'll just distract him long enough for you to get to the stage first. This is pinball Oceans 11. It is, yeah.
    45:38
    Pro wrestling. Yeah, yeah. Well, I would hit him with a chair if I'm wrestling. Are you still into wrestling? I love wrestling, but I don't work in professional wrestling anymore. I have been out of it working in it for six years.
    45:52
    Too many chairs. Yeah, too many. I legitimately did get busted open the hard way as a photographer. Oh, wow. I'll tell you that story in a minute. But I've been out of it for six years, but last year, 2022, I did a one-off for a promoter I used to work for who I like a lot. He did a show that he thought, he told me he was going to probably do it semi-regularly like a couple times a year. It ended up being a one-off. He hasn't done it since. But I happily went back to do that for him. And I didn't have anything to do with the creative of that show. It was just doing photography for him. But it was nice to be back. I dipped my toes in there again. But I did used to work in it, not as a wrestler because I'm not built for that. I started in it as a photographer, but then one of the two companies I worked for, I ended up producing the show and doing all the creative. I'd make the matches and book the talent, and I would write the angles and work out all the stories I wanted to tell. Can you confirm, are the chairs real? Oh, yeah, they're absolutely real. They're real. There's nothing to worry about those chairs. If you took a shot to the head, A, you were foolish, especially if you didn't put up your hands. No, those chairs are real. I don't know if I ever told you this. My stepbrother is really into it. He's a guitarist. He tours with a band called Fozzy. Okay, yeah. That's Chris Jericho's band. Yeah, yeah.
    47:12
    I've had opportunities to shoot them, and it always fell on dates I couldn't make because I had some other commitment. Or they were playing at a club I didn't like, and I didn't want to shoot shows there. I want to hear about you getting... Oh, okay, yeah. By getting busted open the hard way. So the term busted open the hard way. So in wrestling, like when people bleed, we call it getting colored, and they would usually take a razor blade and cut their foreheads open and then make the blood, right? Like I would hit you in the head and then you would fall down and sell it. And while you're selling it, you're just like discreetly. Where do they keep the razor blades? They wrap it in their tape or they keep it in their mouth or the referee can have it. There's a number of ways guys do it. So they could accidentally like slit the wrist. They're really good at like knowing how to place it. These are professionals, Rachel. Yeah, but accidents happen all the time. There's a number of ways you can hide the blade. Sometimes they'll hide it under the ring, which is gross because that floor is dirty. But, you know, sometimes, like, somebody will hand it to them. A lot of times they'll have it. But the keeping it in the mouth is weird to me. Like, what if you take a bump too hard and you swallow that thing? Oh, God. You'll tear up your dad. Yeah. So mostly they would wrap it in the tape. Sometimes they'd tape it to their fingers so then they could just, like, you know. Like Wolverine. Yeah. So anyway, but busted off the hard way is, like, I just punched you in the head until you started bleeding for real, like we were in a real fight. Oh, my God. And there is a sweet spot on your eyebrow that if I hit you with my knuckle just right, it'll split it right open, and you'll bleed like crazy. So I'm shooting like a tag match, and I would lean into the ropes and shoot through the ropes. And I was a little too close to the guy that just got tagged in, and he swung his leg around to get in the thing, and he somehow kicked the camera just right. He didn't know he did this. It was a total accident. But it was like the most perfectly aligned comedy of errors. of he got in there, he swung his leg in just the right way where whatever angle I was at, he kicked my lens, which then hit my camera right into that sweet spot on my forehead and my eyebrow, and it just split it wide open. And then I had the crimson mask. Blood was running down my face. And I'm wearing like a polo shirt, and they're not absorbent. What's the word? Absorbent. Thank you. Absorbent like a T-shirt is. Yeah. So I'm trying to mop up. I'm shooting because I'm a professional. I'm going to finish the match. You have to finish. Right? So I'm shooting, shooting, and then when blood starts running into where I can't see through the viewfinder, I'm like, I'd move the camera away, I'd wipe it out of my sleeve, and I was trying to, like, be discreet about it because, like, fans are as close to me as you are. Like, I'm in this barricade, right? Right. But they're like. They probably think it's cool. Yeah. No, but this is what's so funny. Like, some fans that were standing behind me saw that I'm bleeding, and they saw what happened, and then I heard one of them ask the one next to him, like, was that part of the match that the cameraman got busted open? Right. And I'm like, how does that advance the story? Like, I'm not the rest of the audience. This guy is such a jerk that he's busted open even the cameraman. And it was a heel tag team. So in the true professional that I am, I just kept mopping up the blood. And, dude, if I didn't wipe it up, I would have, like, the Ric Flair crimson mask running down my face. It bled that much. But I'm a professional, so I finished the match. as soon as the bell rang i ran to the back to clean it up in the sink in the backstage area and then one of the wrestlers i'm like is anybody got a band-aid like give you some i'm like i got busted open the hard way they're like what and i explained to them and they're like holy shit they can see me so one guy's like yeah i got band-aids you want crazy glue because they usually just crazy glue their thing yeah for sure i'm like no i'll just stick with the band-aid but i'll come back for the glue if it like because otherwise i don't have to i didn't have to get stitches right it i was able to get to stop bleeding when i wiped it up and put a band on it But then he told the wrestler when he came backstage he told the promoter and the promoter was like what the you know what the aff like you know you kicked the cameraman? And, again, I was not upset about it at all. I was surprised it took five years before I got clipped by somebody. Like, I had some close calls. So there was one more match, and so when the match, the show was over and we were all kind of like, you know, packing up, the wrestler, his name was Nick, he came out he came up to me and he gave me a big hug he goes mike i'm so sorry like i know you were there i felt like i hit something i didn't know what it was he goes are you okay i'm like yeah i'm like he goes i'm so sorry so sorry but the promoter tony's like of all the people you're gonna bust open the heart way you busted open the cameraman right and i said hey wait is this a wrestling first it might be so i might be the only cameraman that ever got busted up like a true legend yeah i really felt like one more like one of the boys then because like i got color in the Right, right. I wish we could have used it as some sort of angle. But he apologized and hugged me. It was all good. I'm like, no, it was an accident. Like, I'm not upset about it. Now I've got a cool story to tell. Right, right. And we have it here.
    51:56
    But if you look really closely in his eye, I have a scar. Unbelievable. And I'm not even upset about it because I'm like, that makes me tough. Yeah. How'd that happen? Oh, yeah. And we've always said that about you. Thank you. Watch out for Vinicola. I'm real tough. I'm not a fighter at all, but I got busted up in the hard way in a wrestling match. I learned all of my wrestling terms from talking to you and trying to figure out context clues. Oh, yeah. Everybody at work. Put one over. Yeah, everybody laughs at me because, honestly, the way professional wrestling works, there's a professional wrestling analogy for every aspect of life. I use it all the time when we design games, like pacing and the high spots, like high spots in wrestling, like what are the high spots in our game? And Bond, I built everything towards high spots of like, okay, where are the wizard modes? Those are the high spots. How do we get there? Like the pacing to tell that story. It's the same thing in game design than it is in wrestling than it is in life. Life is all about heels and baby faces and overcoming adversity. And so is wrestling and the tale of good and evil, right? And so is pinball. Right, and so is pinball. And just any form of entertainment. It's all entertainment. So, again, you've got the peaks and valleys of how you can take people on an emotional ride to entertain them. And we do that with our games, video and pinball.
    53:16
    And the pacing, I think why I'm so good at pacing was because some of it had to be attributed to what I learned from producing wrestling shows. That makes sense. And I think that actually kind of goes to why theme is such an important thing, because it gives you something to wrap a story around that you as the player are going to care about. Exactly. Because we keep seeing this come up with, like, I want an original theme. But then that's an incredibly difficult game to write. It is. You don't care. Right.
    53:47
    I have no... We have an attachment to the Black Knight, for example, because we're pinball and gamers. So we played the first two. But the average pinball player now, the younger ones, have no context of Black Knight. That would be new to pinball in two years. They didn't know what that was. They just know it's the guy that swears at you now. Right, right. But, like, if you don't know, even if you're not a gamer, right, like, I'll use Stranger Things as an example. Because, I mean, that game really earns well on location because the theme has such a broad audience that spans multiple generations. somebody that doesn't even know what pinball is could be sitting in your bar, right? Maybe they came for the concert and they look and they see a Stranger Things in there. They might walk across the room to go check that out because they love the TV show. Now, put the Black Knight in that same spot, and it's not a knock on the Black Knight, but that's not going to get somebody that doesn't know what the Black Knight is to walk across that room and maybe put a dollar in the game. You're right. So the reason why licensing games such as Thing is because, like you said, it's instant identification and you already have an attachment to some of these things if it's something that you're fond of. I love Star Wars. That was my favorite movie in the entire world. I will walk across the room to see anything with the Star Wars name on it. Pinball machine, video game, not a gambling machine because again, record money.
    55:06
    But you know what I mean? But I'm not going to walk across the thing to look at something I don't know what it is or I'm not even interested in. I'm not a Pokemon player. I'm older than that. So I'm probably not going to go walk out of my way to check it out. If I was next to it, I'd look at it. But my nephew would run across the room to go check out that Pokemon game. If we had a Roblox thing, he'd be all over it.
    55:30
    So that's why a theme is super important. And you already have this attachment. It's easier than to get people invested in wanting to go on that journey that you want to take them on and play your game and try to see what it has to offer. Who is this Gorgar? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Why does he speak? But the pacing is huge.
    55:52
    Because you've got to keep them engaged, and there's always got to be something to chase. And it's very similar to, like, if you and I are in a wrestling feud, we want to milk it for as many matches as possible. We don't want to be one and done. So how do we tell that story to keep it compelling and keep them coming back to see us fight again? Like, what twist do we put on the story and what match stipulations do we do? You have the rematch, the rematch. Right, and then we're like, okay, now we're going to do it in a cage. right right now so ladder yeah so it's like all right well where are the carrots that i'm you're dangling to like okay what's the next big thing i want to achieve that i feel is attainable to me as a player and you just build towards that and that's how the pacing works comparing that storytelling and dopamine like that that's that's such a fine craft that i think that the uh the aspiring pinball makers that's something really to work on right it's not just about an orbit shot a ramp shot a weird thing it's what do those get you exactly like make me care about making doing those things those chores those tasks right like i get me invested like you know emotionally like i want to do that because i'm going to get this and that's super fun you know otherwise i'm just vacuuming the living room in a different pattern exactly exactly so that that's key like is uh give me a reason to care and it's like that in any informant give me a reason to care about the two characters you're telling a story about on the screen like why are these people fighting or why are these two people falling in love or like where does this go right like uh why do i want this person to save the world you know right give me a reason to care as far as dopamine goes Nothing Beat Tops, Insider Connected Achievements.
    57:35
    Rachel and I will watch people play games that we've played over and over again for days, and we'll see an achievement popped up. Whoa, we don't have that yet. So now we're drilling that game, trying to land those achievements. I will tell you, as somebody that worked on this platform and designed many of those achievements,
    57:53
    even if I didn't, now when I play Stern Pinball Machines, if they're not logged in, I feel like I'm wasting my time. I'm like, oh, there's no, this isn't the one. I'll go play one that is, you know. Like, I almost don't want to play my Tron at home, and it's one of my favorite games because I'm like, well, I can't scan in.
    58:12
    There's no achievements. I won't get to go out on the website to see what my best score was. I have to remember it. And that game looks so modern. That game looks so modern, it feels like you should be able to log in. Exactly, exactly. I'm like, well, this was the future. in 1984.
    58:30
    So here's where you announce Insider Connected for White Star. No. I mean, those games, that platform is so old that it really couldn't... There's no way to support it, right? No. Unfortunately, I mean, God, I would love to have Insider achievements on Tron, just because I have one, and it's one of my favorite Stern games ever. But I honestly feel like if I can't scan in, I'm wasting my time. When I see an 8-Ball Deluxe at the show, I'm like, why can't I skate in on this? I want achievements on 8-Ball Deluxe. I've gone so far over the thing where it's become so ingrained in my life. And like you said, the dopamine, every time I hear that little ding when I get an achievement, I'm like, yeah. It's better than when you get the little red number on your Facebook thing saying, oh, somebody commented on your thing. No, this is 1,000% better. Do you know who did the sound? Who decided on the ding? I mean, we went through a bunch of different ones. I don't know who ultimately. Well, I'll listen to it until they find one they like. But, I mean, like, you know, Tanio, Mark Guidarelli, and Mark Panaccio, and Mitch Deason, he came on a little bit later, were largely the architects of that. And George Gomez was driving it all. I mean, all of this whole Insider Connected thing was George's brainchild, you know. And this was like, I want to take these games and do these things. and then he put us together and gave us a map of this is what we've got to do. It goes to George. Right, yeah. I mean, George is a total visionary. I mean, the reason why CERN is so good at what we do is because the design studio we have was 100% the creation of George Gomez. Like, he's like the architect. He put us all together, and he did it in such a way that he really encourages us to find our path and our strengths. and then that just makes what we all do better because when we all love what we do and he finds things that we're good at and encourages that, you only just get better games for it. It's always good to work for somebody like that. Team needs a great leader. He is an amazing leader and it really is an honor and a privilege that he chose me to be one of those, one member of this whole studio.
    60:44
    And I'm a perfect example of like, he hired me almost seven years ago, January will be seven years for me um largely to be the game like the software tester like you know he knew I had experience doing that he knew I had did game design and stuff too but they needed a role somebody to do that and that's why he brought me in and then but he also gave me a clear path to find my way and like grow and I would go ask him like hey is it okay if I do this or try this or can I can I be a part of this and he would always the answer was always yes uh you know and he's He's like, I welcome you to branch out and do whatever you can, and I'll direct you. If I think you're doing a good job, I'll keep you at it. If I think you need to be redirected because maybe it's not a good fit, then I'll steer you somewhere else. And it came at the detriment of me doing what he hired me for at some point because I got good at the things I'm now good at. But he completely encouraged it. He goes, I can hire somebody to backfill what you no longer do. You're doing great things. Most places are like stay in your lane, right? And George is, no, find your path. And that's why we all have done great things. And I'm not the only one that this has happened to, but I'm probably one of the much more recent and biggest examples, I would think. But, I mean, I'm watching people grow. Like Tim Sexton was hired to be, and we started him in a support role, and he quickly grew to where we gave him a lead shot on Black Knight, and he did a good job. And then they put him on another lead, and now he's just a lead. And he's been the lead on three games now. And, you know, that guy, yeah, you know, that guy, he took the ball that was given to him and he ran with it and he proved himself that he's capable and he can do good work, you know, in that role. Like, he didn't let anybody down. He did good stuff, you know. And I'm watching this happen with a lot of the other newer hires, too.
    62:35
    And even outside of, like, my department, now this, George isn't Michael Grant's boss, but I'm going to put him over because he was hired for one thing and they put him on the road with me and he does a lot of other stuff. and I've watched that guy grow in less than two years. It's only been about a year and a half, and he's been doing such great things. I love to see his growth, and I'm so proud of him. Yeah, he's doing a great job. He is. We work closely with him. Yeah, yeah. He does most of these shows with me, and at the first, I was reluctant. I don't need a tag team partner, but I love the guy, and I can't imagine doing it without him now.
    63:13
    I'm really proud to see how he's grown, much like I did. He was giving the foot in the door, and then he got in there, he found the ball, he picked it up, and now he's running in every direction he feels that he can succeed in, and he's killing it. We're so glad he's on the team.
    63:27
    We all are. But, yeah, again, going back to George, he was the branch out of the thing, and he's why we're doing such great things because he brought us. He's got a great eye for talent, and he knows how to nurture that talent, and that's a really rare trait in a leader. that's so nice of you to say that uh on on video here because i think most uh stern fans just think of him as a designer oh yeah you know he did deadpool he did he did bond but they don't see the behind the scenes i mean he really keeps this thing running he so doing the game design is not his normal job so when he does like a bond or a deadpool it comes at the expense of now all the other stuff he's supposed to be doing now has to share his time wow you know so he spreads himself pretty thin and again another perfect example of i wish when i get to that age i can do that like have that kind of drive and energy because again i don't know how they do it but i mean it's amazing like i couldn't juggle that much stuff at once yeah no matter how much i try i juggle a lot of stuff but i mean he makes me look like i'm juggling one ball and he's juggling like you know the entirety of every ball. Yeah, for sure.
    64:40
    We might need to wrap this up so we don't run out of any more batteries. I think we're on our final batteries. I could go on for days. I'll do this with you guys anytime. When I come visit you in two months, we could do this in-house with your big rig. Yeah, right on.
    64:56
    What shows are you doing after this? Next week, I'm going to the Nashville show, which is called them, Music City Multicon. So remember that Nashville show that we used to do? It was much smaller. Same guy, David, he's grown it now into a bigger venue just outside of Nashville, but it's still Nashville. It's like this. We're not in Chicago, but this is Chicago. And that's coming up in five days. Awesome. Well, it's Friday. It's coming Friday, so today is Saturday. Next week. I leave Thursday for the setup. I'll be there with Tilt Amusements. They're going to have a booth full of Stern Games. I'll have some stuff to give away like I usually do. So I'm doing that show. Then two weeks later, I'm doing the Houston Arcade Expo. Oh, that's a fun one. Yeah, I love that one. And then two weeks after that, I do Cincinnati. And then that's it for this calendar year. And then in March, the new tour starts all over again. So if you are in Nashville, Houston, or Cincinnati, come hang out with Mike at the Marco Stern booth. No Marco for these three. So the two of the three will be the Tilt booth. Oh, okay. So Nashville and Cincinnati, I'll be with the Tilt guys, Troy and Trent. Fantastic. And then I believe it's Joysticks is our dealer, I believe, in Houston. Charlie, I love Joysticks. So Marco's not doing the Houston show, unfortunately, this year, so I'll just be at that booth. Have you been to Joysticks? I have not. This time you have to go tell Charlie you're coming out. He'll get you some lunch. It is three stories of like, it's basically a museum. It's like computer space. Oh, wow. Oh, it is amazing. Yeah, I definitely want to see that. Make sure you go hang out with Charlie at Joystick. Okay. Right on. Yeah, that'd be awesome. We're going to hit the floor. Thank you so much for joining us, Mike. We're going to go have some fun. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Again, I love you guys. It was an instant yes when you asked. Isn't this fun? We're in a hotel lobby. That's why there's all this background noise. Some weird hammering going on back there. And before, when Rachel and Kelly used to work at Marco, we were on the road together. We were part of the traveling pinball family. And, yeah, I love these two more than most people. We would do this in the room. Yeah. We just wouldn't record it. Exactly. Yeah, so it's such a treat whenever the three of us get to get together. It's never enough. You know, like I don't get to see you guys enough. I can't wait until you come visit in December. I'm excited, yeah. Not just for getting the gold status, but I'm most excited to see you. And my friend Kirstie is really excited that we can go record shopping together when I'm down there. We'll have a blast. Yeah. All right, guys, well, thank you for joining us. We're going to head back to the floor and we'll maybe do some more interviews later on. who knows we'll see you guys the bats are out oh you gotta do the bat hand shake now you're in the club all right thank you guys bye-bye