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Episode 118 – Celtic Roots

Head2Head Pinball·podcast_episode·1h 40m·analyzed·Nov 25, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.023

TL;DR

Deep Root Pinball bold claims and controversial interview stir community skepticism amid high expectations.

Summary

Josh Roop from Loser Kid Pinball Podcast appears on Head2Head Pinball to discuss his podcast's growth, recent interviews with industry figures, and Deep Root Pinball ambitious plans revealed in a recent Kaneda podcast interview with Robert Mueller. The hosts analyze Mueller's claims about 20 games in development, pricing strategy, and controversial comments about competitors, while expressing cautious optimism about Deep Root Pinball potential despite concerns about delivery timelines and unsubstantiated promises.

Key Claims

  • Deep Root Pinball has approximately 20 different games at various stages of development, with about 10 at 50% completion or higher and 10 below 50% (some as low as 10%), spanning a two-year timeline.

    high confidence · Robert Mueller in Kaneda podcast interview, cited by Martin and Josh Roop

  • Deep Root Pinball will not be priced at $3,500; instead, the company is positioning for higher pricing to deliver more value per machine.

    high confidence · Robert Mueller in Kaneda podcast interview

  • Current Stern Pro MSRP is approximately $5,800–$6,000.

    high confidence · Josh Roop's statement in episode discussion

  • Josh Roop achieved a billion-point hurry-up on Attack from Mars in a tournament setting with over 40 competitors.

    high confidence · Josh Roop's personal tournament experience in Utah

  • Deep Root Pinball neighboring animation/design studio may have shut down or relocated to San Antonio.

    medium confidence · Rumor mentioned by Martin citing hearsay; not confirmed

  • Robert Mueller criticized Zombie Yeti artwork as 'shabby' and 2D, contrasting it with Deep Root Pinball planned approach.

    high confidence · Martin and Josh Roop citing Kaneda's Pinball Podcast podcast interview

  • John Papaduke's Raza machines (foam core prototypes with Zombie Yeti artwork) sold for $20,000–$30,000 largely on artwork alone.

    medium confidence · Josh Roop's analysis and opinion

  • Loser Kid Pinball Podcast has grown to 22 episodes and has interviewed major industry figures including Eric Meunier, Keith Elwin, Josh Sharpe, and Jeff Teolis.

    high confidence · Josh Roop's direct statement

Notable Quotes

  • “We're taking the hammer to the playfield and it doesn't leave a scratch.”

    Robert Mueller (cited by Josh Roop) @ N/A — Demonstrates Deep Root's confidence in manufacturing quality and innovation in playfield construction.

  • “If people think that Raza is going to be priced lower than a Stern Pro, then that's probably going to be a problem.”

    Robert Mueller (cited by Martin) @ N/A — Signals Deep Root's pricing strategy pivot away from undercutting Stern toward value positioning.

  • “You just put up a billion. Where did the billion points come from?”

    [name withheld pending review] @ N/A — Illustrates surprise at Josh Roop's achievement of the 'big billion' hurry-up on Attack from Mars.

  • “The other companies are not your competition. You yourself are your own competition.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Articulates philosophy that companies should focus on internal improvement rather than attacking competitors, critiquing Mueller's approach.

  • “Salvage artwork? Have you not seen Alice in Wonderland? That's what sold all of John Popadiuk machines was Zombie Yeti.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Defends Zombie Yeti's contribution to Deep Root's designs and pushes back on Mueller's dismissal of 2D artwork.

  • “I'm ready for the rubber to meet the road. I'm ready to see an official product, get my hands on it.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Expresses community frustration with Deep Root's long development cycle and undelivered promises.

  • “Pinball is a lot like music. There is multiple genres. You pick your flavor and you love it. You're not right or wrong for loving that.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Frames design preferences and game themes as subjective choices, acknowledging diversity in player tastes.

  • “The hype has been there for so long. I'm about to pass out from all the excitement. Let's just get this done.”

Entities

Josh RooppersonMartinpersonRobert MuellerpersonKeith ElwinpersonEric MeunierpersonJosh Sharpeperson

Signals

  • ?

    industry_signal: Deep Root Pinball shifting from price-undercutting strategy to value-positioning; pricing Raza in premium ($6,000–$6,500) rather than budget tier, matching or exceeding Stern Pro range.

    high · Robert Mueller stated 'if people think Raza is going to be priced lower than a Stern Pro, then that's probably going to be a problem' and reframed strategy as 'more bang for your buck' rather than undercutting.

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball rumored to have shut down or relocated neighboring animation/design studio, potentially as cost-cutting measure during extended development cycle.

    medium · Hosts discuss rumor of studio closure/relocation to San Antonio; Martin notes this could be 'good business decision' to cut costs and save company despite appearing negative to community.

  • ?

    machine_intel: Deep Root Pinball claims approximately 20 games in development across two-year span: ~10 at 50%+ completion, ~10 below 50% (some at 10%); equates to 10 machines per year if delivered on schedule.

    medium · Robert Mueller stated in Kaneda podcast interview; hosts note this exceeds Stern's current 7 games/year output and represents bold claim requiring demonstration.

  • ?

    industry_signal: Robert Mueller criticized Zombie Yeti's artwork as 'shabby' and 2D; hosts view this as unnecessary attacks on competitors and potential sign of internal company stress.

    high · Martin recounts Mueller's comments about Zombie Yeti; Josh Roop critiques this as undermining focus and contradicting Mueller's own claims about value, noting Yeti's artwork drove sales of Papaduke prototypes.

  • ~

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.067

0:00
The Head to Head Pinball Podcast Welcome, everybody, to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 118, and my name's Martin, and with me... Josh Roop. Aren't you from the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast? That would be correct, my good sir.
0:45
So, you've been on our show before, haven't you? Once before, and it was kind of hectic, man. Like, we did it as they were revealing Willy Wonka, and it was nuts. It was... yeah, it was a pretty crazy... It was crazy, crazy times, wasn't it? I know. So for those people that don't know, and you should know, Lose a Kid Pinball Podcast is an amazing show. It's Josh and Scott. I think you're now up to episode 22. Correctamundo. And I think that for me, I mean, I love your show and I listen to it all the time. And you've also had some amazing interviews as well. So catch me up. What's been happening since you last came on the show, since Willy Wonka was revealed? That feels like an eternity ago. I mean, we had Eric Meniere on. I can't remember if he had been on. It was after Willy Wonka because we reached out to him after Willy Wonka. We then had Keith Elwin on. We had Josh Sharp on, Jeff Teolis.
1:39
But no, we've had so many people on and it's just it's been unreal. You know, we had someone reach out to me today and he's like, you guys are the go to pinball podcast for manufacturers. And I love it. And I was like, wow, cool. Yeah. I never thought of it that way, but cool. Yeah. Yeah, awesome. But yeah, that's what's been going on.
2:01
So yeah, and look, just even taking a step back, like if you remember back even before you started, you reached out to myself and Ryan and said, hey, I'm thinking of doing a podcast. Here's a little bit of a clip. What do you think? And I would say it's gone a bit crazy since then. Yes, it really has. And it's just funny because it's like one morning I woke up and I was like, I'm doing a podcast today. I've got the crap to do it. Why have I never done this? And so I was so nervous, though, because I just you don't know how you're going to be received. It's a it's a niche hobby. You don't know. I mean, everyone's been on Pinside before. You don't know if you're going to get praised or if you're going to get mud thrown at the wall at you. And so I just like I got to send this to someone that I find very professional and I really respect their show. And so the first guys I thought of were you two. So I was like, hey, obviously the others were not available. So, sure, I understand. Jeff Teolas just laughed at me. He was like, you know.

Josh Roop @ N/A — Captures community fatigue with Deep Root's extended development and desire for product delivery.

  • “You've made some pretty bold claims and we haven't seen anything. This is what people are going to hold you to.”

    Josh Roop (referencing community sentiment) @ N/A — Emphasizes accountability for Deep Root's public statements and the need for concrete results.

  • “I don't think there really has been a machine that has been 100% had approval, right?”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Acknowledges that no pinball machine achieves universal acclaim and varying sales success reflects diverse preferences.

    • Jeff Teolis
    person
    John Popadiukperson
    Zombie Yetiperson
    Scottperson
    Jeff Riveraperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Dennis Nordmanperson
    Steve Beldinperson
    Matt Shablomperson
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastmedia
    Head2Head Pinballmedia
    Kaneda podcastmedia
    This Week in Pinballmedia
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Razagame
    Attack from Marsgame
    Total Nuclear Annihilationgame
    Willy Wonkagame

    sentiment_shift: Pinball community exhibiting 'healthy skepticism' toward Deep Root Pinball after extended development cycle and repeated bold claims without delivered product; community fatigue evident.

    high · Hosts describe polarizing reception to Mueller interview; Josh Roop states 'we haven't seen anything' and 'rubber's got to meet the road'; notes previous companies made similar bold claims before going under.

  • ?

    content_signal: Loser Kid Pinball Podcast experiencing rapid growth and industry recognition; now perceived as 'go-to podcast for manufacturers' despite being new show; hosts attribute success to quality interviews and merchandise strategy.

    high · Josh Roop reports reaching episode 22, interviewing major designers (Elwin, Papaduke, Teolis, Meunier, Sharpe); noted Keith Elwin wearing Loser Kid gear; community members recognizing Josh at tournaments.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Loser Kid Pinball Podcast chose hat merchandise over t-shirts as differentiation strategy; hat-based merchandise proving successful and becoming brand identifier.

    high · Josh Roop describes Scott's suggestion to pivot to hats, Jeff Rivera's positive feedback, and successful market response; hosts joke about Josh planning retirement on hat proceeds.

  • ?

    operational_signal: Utah pinball community experiencing growth; Josh Roop's recent tournament attracted 40+ competitors—largest outside Salt Lake Gaming Con; new players joining hobby.

    high · Josh Roop describes tournament size increase and influx of new community members; notes personal recognition at events due to podcast visibility.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Deep Root Pinball leveraging designer licenses (John Papaduke) as alternative to paid IP licensing; hosts and Mueller debate whether designer-licensed themes constitute true 'licensed' games compared to external IP.

    medium · Josh Roop and Martin discuss Raza as John Papaduke license; comparison drawn to Dialed In (Pat Lawler license) vs. paid external licenses; distinction made regarding creative freedom with designer vs. external licensor.

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball machine pricing expectations shifting; community wants 'more value and pay less' but understanding cost inflation since 2000s; Stern Pro increased to $5,800–$6,000; Jersey Jack Premium pushing upper range higher.

    high · Josh Roop references $3,500 MSRP from 2000 as outdated; notes Jersey Jack pricing 'out of reach of a lot of people'; hosts discuss customer expectation mismatch between desire for value and unrealistic price targets.

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community tension between excitement for Deep Root's potential and frustration with unmet delivery timelines; Mueller facing pressure to substantiate 2+ years of bold claims with concrete product.

    high · Josh Roop states 'these interviews just frustrate a lot of people'; notes community wants Deep Root to succeed but skeptical due to previous similar company failures; emphasis on accountability for past statements.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Deep Root Pinball assembled top-tier design talent (John Papaduke, Dennis Nordman, Steve Beldin); community rooting for these designers' success despite business model uncertainties.

    high · Josh Roop expresses emotional investment in Steve Beldin and other designers succeeding; recalls positive personal interaction with Beldin; frames question as 'how can you say you want him to fail?'

    • 3:02
    But no, seriously, I just was like, I'll send it off to Marty because we had chit-chatted before that. Yes, we had. We already had a relationship established. I'd send it off to you guys and see what we'd say. Well, I'm glad you took our advice and kept going. And I would say that there's a number of things that you're known for, but really, really, best hats in the business. Come on. You know, it's funny because I was going to do a t-shirt and Scott's like, no, we need to do hats. And I'm like, why? Like everyone has a t-shirt. He's like, that's the point. And I was like, oh. And then we reached out to Jeff Rivera, our friend from the pinball podcast. And he's like, with that logo on a hat, it'll be money. And so if Jeff said it, we figured it'd be gold and it really worked in our favor. It's been nice. But that logo is just something that you doodled at school, isn't it? Yeah, when I was a junior in high school, we were on a track trip and I doodled it on a piece of paper and my buddy's like, that's cool, you should keep that. Alrighty. Another thing that may have happened since you were last on, did you have like twins or something? Yes. Oh, I told you, yeah, we had, I told you it was an eternity ago, but yeah, we had twins back in May, a boy and a girl, and they are just amazing. Amazing. They're little bundles of joy. My little girl just lights up every time I walk in the room. And I just love it. There's nothing better, in my opinion, than being a father and seeing those kids and being influence on them. And my little girl loves to sit in the front pack and play pinball with me. She watches the lights. She tracks the ball. I mean, it's just amazing. And I love the little boy, too. Nothing against the little boy, but he's doing great, too. I don't know if you heard a couple episodes back he had to go in for surgery, but it went smoothly. Yes, I did. It just went smoothly and we were all taken care of. It was wonderful. And he's doing great. He's already off the medication, everything.
    5:01
    Yeah, he's doing great. You had a good anaesthetist when you were there, didn't you? Yes, and he's going to kick my butt.
    5:08
    Matt, I'm not even going to pronounce your last name because I know your goal is to get your last name mispronounced on every pinball podcast in the world. So Matt was very nice to us. Matt Shablom, he's very nice to us and he just took care of everything and it made the process so much easier. That's awesome. Yeah, see, Pinball, bringing people together. Exactly. Saving lives now, apparently, as well. You know it.
    5:33
    So what's been happening in Pinball in Utah where you are located since we last spoke? Same? Better? What's happened? Better? I totally forgot. We didn't even get to say this on the last episode, but the last tournament I went to was the biggest tournament that we had outside of Salt Lake Gaming Con. We had over 40 people there. Awesome. And that was a lot of men for a small home. There was women there too. Yeah, okay. You know how it is. You get too many men together. I know the numbers, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    6:04
    But no, it was great. I was really proud of myself. I stepped up on Attack for Mars and I had a housework. That was ball number one. And on ball number two, I was able to do the big billion hurry up along with starting total annihilation. And I felt like King Kong on steroids. And after I drained, I flipped around. My son went with me. He wanted to compete. And I gave him the biggest hug. And he just looked at me like, what happened, dad? And then I walked over and it was so funny because this one guy walks over to me that was playing. He's one of the four in the group and he looks at me. He's like, what the hell was that? I was like, what are you talking about, dude? And he's like, you just put up a billion. Where did the billion points come from? Like, it's the big billion. Hurry up, dude. And I'm like, it's like, it's ridiculous to get as is and to do it in a tournament. I just I couldn't believe I did it. And he's like, how did you do it? Like, I need to know. I was like, whoa, dude, like calm down. Just hit the flashing light, really. That's how everybody else does it, I think. Yep. And so other than that, it's just been growing exponentially. We've had a lot of people move into the hobby. And it's funny because I really haven't been to a tournament besides Salt Lake Gaming Con since last year. And so to go to a tournament and then people be like, oh, you're Josh from Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Who are you? No, no. I know the feeling. That sounds really conceited, but it's not. I know that weird feeling when people know you and you don't know them. It's weird. Yeah. Well, and I've always viewed us as the peon podcast. I just don't think that people – I know the numbers are there. I know people listen. But I just – I still feel like the new kid on the block. I still feel like we're etching a name for ourselves. And so when people actually are now starting to say, hey, I know who you are from what you do, it takes me back a little bit. I'm very humbled by it because I'm like, oh, that must mean someone wants to hear our product and enough to come up to me and say, hey, I love what you're doing. I listen to every episode and it just it makes me it very much humbles me and I appreciate it, you know. And that, people, is why we do this stuff every week. All the hours that we put into it is just so people enjoy it. You know what? That's the purpose of it. Nothing more. Isn't that right, Josh? You know it. Nothing more.
    8:27
    I don't know. I feel like we had some conversation beforehand about this, but anyway, it seems sort of weird. We're seriously doing it for the hats. I mean, see the amount of hats.
    8:38
    You are literally going to live off the proceeds that come from the hats. You know, I'm already planning retirement. I just, I want to thank everyone that's got me this far. So, uh, no.
    8:51
    That's hilarious. Well, so, you know, the moment that we shared, well, obviously, you know, last year we shared the whole Keith Elwin winning with a head-to-head. This year, there was a day where he had a head-to-head t-shirt on and a Loser Kid cap. Yep. That was freaking cool. It was way awesome. Well, it's even, I don't know if you've had this, but it's really cool when people are sending you pictures because they took a picture with Keith Elwin. With their matching shirts or their matching hats. No, I haven't had that.
    9:25
    Maybe next year. Maybe. So shall we get into some news? Yeah, let's do it. Well, the news of this week. Well, it was the news of last week was Deep Root. And we're going to go deeper rooting, I guess. I don't know. So Robert Mueller went on the Kaneda podcast this week and as he is known to do, he said a lot of things. What do you think of the interview? You know, it's a very interesting interview for the fact that I felt in some aspects he was humble, but in some aspects he was very, very brash. And so I had a couple takeaways from it, but overall I thought it was a good interview. I thought it was all about Robert and that's what we needed to hear from D.Brew at this point. Yeah, for sure. The reaction to this interview has been polarizing as has every comment word uttered from the man's mouth. It just people either like or don't. There's no middle ground is what I found. I don't know. It's very interesting because I think he says a lot of things that we don't have evidence to back it up at this stage. And in a year's time, we may look back and say, oh, well, of course he said those things because what he's delivered was absolutely what he said. But it still is. There's a couple of comments where, you know, he has a go at Stern. Yep. Pretty much. There's no need to. Just be good. You don't have to go attacking other people. That's just how I feel about that. I totally agree. And that's the thing is there's certain things that you hear in this interview and it's music to your ears. He's like, you know, we're taking the hammer to the play field and it doesn't leave a scratch. I'm like, that's music to my ears. And you hear stuff like when he's attacking Stern and I'm just like, ooh, a little cringeworthy right now. Yeah, it's like you could have just said we're doing all these great things and left it at that instead of at the end saying unlike other people that are crap. Yep. You know, just we're intelligent enough to know that the stuff that you say you can do, that's all you need to say. And then we will see it. So some of the things that came out of it, he was saying that there's about 20 different games currently at various stages of development. So, I mean, that could go from a squiggle on the back of a napkin to a machine like, I don't know, Magic Girl that's just around the corner. But, yeah, 20 different games. I mean, certainly they've got a lot of developers that can work on a lot of machines, like a lot of designers. There's four off the top of my head, and if they had four machines each, there you go, there's 16. So that probably doesn't surprise me that they would have that many machines in various stages of development is really the word there. Well, and the other interesting part about it, too, is he specifically said I can't remember the number, so I do apologize. But I want to say it was about half of those machines of the 20 were about 50 percent or more completed. And then the other 10 machines were below 50% all the way down to 10% on a couple of them. And so it's interesting to see. And this was over a two-year span. So that means 20 machines in two years. I mean, Stern's putting out, what, seven right now? So that's a pretty bold statement to say you're going to be doing 10 within about the next two, three years. Therein lies, I guess, the disconnect that people are like, it's great for you to say that, But you've been delayed 18 months and you just bought out Raza, which is in a prototype stage. Where is it? Where's the stuff that backs up what you've been saying? Yep. Well, and the other thing, too, that really stood out to me was he talked about value. And a lot of this time, we've always taken it as, oh, they're going to come in and undercut Stern. And I could have swore somewhere in the past in an interview, he was going to say, hey, we're going to bring in like a we're going to like undercut the competition with price. And in this interview, he kind of said, no, that's not necessarily what we're trying to do. We're trying to give you more bang for your buck. So I'm like, does that mean now they're aiming to cost higher, but you're going to get more in the machine? I don't know.
    13:38
    Yeah, I think it was along the lines of, I can't remember the exact quote, but it was along the lines of, if people think that Raza is going to be priced lower than a Stern Pro, then that's probably going to be a problem. Yeah, and that's exactly right. Last week, Joe said that he thought that the Raza might go for three and a half grand. Yeah, and I think people need to get that out of their head regardless. $3,500 for a pinball machine, I just don't think is fathomable at this point. The economy has expanded since then. I mean, $3,500 was a game coming off the line back in 2000. I just don't see it happening now. But hey, if D-Pri can do it, cool. Cool by them. But I still think it's a win, even in my opinion. If even a Sturm Pro right now, MSRP is what, about $5,800, $6,000? Even if DEEP ROOT came in at $5,255? I don't think that's – I still say that's a win in my opinion. People are expecting it to be lower because, you know, Sturm machines, even their pros have gone up in price. But also the Jersey Jacks have really pushed the upper range up quite high and out of the reach of a lot of people. And I think really what people want, and I remember saying this to Gary Stern, we just want a machine that's cheaper than the last one. That's really what we want. We want more value and we want to pay less. Just like every one of my clients when it comes to a yearly review and they say, we will renew if you can do more and we pay less. Exactly. That's what it is in every industry. I get it all the time at work too. I want your value. I want your professionalism, but not for this price.
    15:20
    Who is the judge to say where the value meets the dollar sign? Let me ask you a question then. Go for it. Without notice. With Raza that you saw last week, where would you say that fits as far as value goes? Take price out of what you see in the machine to the market that's out there, the low point being a Stern Pro all the way up to a Jersey Jack Collector's Edition. Where do you think Raza sits in between that? Just, I guess, features. Features-wise, looking at the game, I'm just going to say this. I think it's in the $6,000 range. I think there's enough there to warrant that price. I know this isn't the cabinet. I know this isn't all that yada, yada, yada. What I'm seeing right now, I would easily say probably 6 to 6,500. So that's what I see. I agree. And that's why I was kind of a bit shocked last week when Joe said that, and apparently he was wrong. So, I mean, that happens. I looked at it and I thought, well, my actual opinion of it was that it kind of reminded me of a, An American pinball game in that it's your narrow body, it's got all the bells and whistles in there, nothing radically innovative, but presentation wise, it looks great. And I would expect that from a low run manufacturer. I didn't say boutique, I said low run manufacturer. Yes, yes. I wanted to just distinguish that. So I would see it almost at that Stern premium range. I agree. I don't put it past them. And the thing too is, and people are starting to say this more and more, everyone kept claiming it's not a licensed theme. No, it is a licensed theme. It's a John Papaduke. That is the license. It's the same argument we had with Dialed In, right? Why are they doing this theme? This isn't a license at all. No, it's a Pat Lawler. It's a Pat Lawler license, yeah. Yeah, I think the difference is that with an actual paid license, you're having to deal with somebody that's external to your company. So even though, yes, I agree with you, you're paying for a Pat Lawler design or a J-pop design, you still have a lot more freedom to what you can do with that license. Yeah, I totally agree. That designer does because they're responsible for all of it. I agree.
    17:53
    Someone brought this up to me today. I kind of agree with him. Where's the money all coming from? They've been working for two years now. Robert doesn't owe us any explanation of where the money is coming from. It's really weird that we've had these top-tier designers. They're obviously getting paid because no one can go without pay for two years. What's keeping these guys afloat right now? Well, I think that's where he said in an interview a while ago that I think it was costing him $750,000 a week maybe or a month, something like that. So there's a lot of money. The thing of it is you brought up a really, really good point, and that is the whole commercial model. So Robert Mueller has shitloads of money, right? He just does. We know he does, and it's all to do with investments and all that kind of stuff. I don't get all that kind of stuff. Simpler business models work for me. So that's what you're going to think about is when is payback date? When do you actually expect to have paid back all the investment costs? And if you think about a machine like Rasa, and let's say it costs, let's say it is $6,000. We don't know, but let's say $6,000. And you put a bill of materials on it, and then you've got to think about the rest of it is profit that then goes back to paying all the money that you've then invested over the last two or whatever years. Think about that into the future. How many machines you would have to have with that margin to be able to pay back all that you've invested so far? And the longer you leave it, the more you have to pay back.
    19:27
    And, you know, like most companies would say that they don't turn a profit in the first year. Some don't turn a profit in five years. Maybe that's his plan. And we don't know how long he's expected to start really paying everything back and being in the clear, but it's years away. The way to be able to fast track that is the amount of units that you can sell. Yeah, I totally agree. And I just, I don't know, I don't get that level, like you said, level of business. I don't understand. I know that you get some money back from a tax break, from money lost because of business and yada, yada, yada. But I'm just like, rubber's got to meet the road quick. From my point of view, maybe it doesn't. Maybe we could sit another year. I don't know.
    20:12
    There's all sorts of things that have been said. And it gets back to that model. You either sell more units or you cut some of your costs. And Josh?
    20:26
    That is awesome. What do you reckon, eh? You like that? I literally, that's why it took ages for us to start recording because I was just putting that together just for you. Nice, I love it.
    20:37
    My new room. So rumor has it that your neighboring studio for D-Broot, the design studio, whatever it is, animation studio, they've actually shut that down. Oh, don't tell me that. We haven't got to go look inside the doors yet. But Teolis is telling us we need to take a crowbar and go break down the door to go see what's happening. Well, it doesn't mean that they've shut down that division. It may mean that they've actually moved that to San Antonio. I don't really know. But that was just a rumor that I've heard as well. So what's really interesting about that is some people would, if that is true, people would look at that and say, oh, the sky is falling. And when I hear that, I think, you know what, Robert? You've made a good business decision because if you have to cut costs, cut them. Do them to save the business. That's what companies do. They have to make those decisions. Oh, I totally agree. And so you got to do what you got to do. I don't know what the percentage is of people that actually own businesses, but I don't think anyone understands that until you're behind the checkbook or behind even a low-tier business. We do heating and air conditioning. It's like you look at the books and it's like you got to tighten the belt somewhere. And so, yeah, if that's what it takes to keep this company afloat, awesome. And like you said, it's a rumor. So we might get something next week and they say, no, that's not the case. And this is, yeah, it is what it is, you know, so. Yeah. And I'm not saying it to do some scaremongering. It's just, you know, that's a rumor that came. And I take that and I say, okay, well, that's just part of business. And a lot of companies have to do that at varying stages. It doesn't mean that it's stopped forever. It may have moved or it may come back. That's just one of those things. But anyway, so that was the Wim Hof. But going back to the interview as well, something he mentioned, he talked about art and he said that he doesn't want people to buy his machines for the artwork. And then also he had a bit of a swipe as well, saying that Zombie Yeti is a good artist, but everything he does is 2D and their artwork will be different. And I can't remember the word he kept saying, but I just, I don't know. I'm like, dude, it's Zombie Yeti. I get it. He's competition, whatever, but it's just...
    22:52
    He's a national treasure. We love Zombie Yeti. Don't be touching our Zombie Yeti. Well, just the word he kept saying, it was shabby artwork. I don't know. I was like, dude, I don't know. I don't want to say something and be misconstrued or whatnot, but I'm just like, okay, here's my personal philosophy. I'm going out. I'm doing this right now. My personal philosophy is the other companies are not your competition. You yourself are your own competition. When you wake up in the morning, you decide whether you're profitable, whether you need to make the cuts, whatever. Ultimately, at the end of the day, you're competing with yourself to stay relevant in a market. And so when you take shots at other companies, it makes me feel like something under the hood of your company is not right, and so you're placing it on the other company. And I'm not saying that is what this is with Zombie Yeti, but I'm just like, we've heard this multiple times. We bought out the artwork, we're going to cut and paste, we're going to salvage what we can from this art. I'm like, salvage artwork? Have you not seen Alice in Wonderland? That's what sold all of Papa Duke's machines was Zombie Yeti. Like there was there's there's something good about it because he sold what were they? Twenty thirty thousand dollar machines based solely off of artwork on foam core. Like it makes me laugh when you say it out loud. It's what happened. It is. And like and it sucks to be those people that got caught up in that. And like it's cool that it's all being made right. But seriously, like when you boil it down, when we boil this down, there was no mechanics in those games. There was no lights in those games. It was foam core with Zomdiator's artwork and it sold for those exuberant price tags. So there it is. I agree with you. And I also know that it is part of business for you to hype up a company. We talk about the fact that the value of the company is the machine that they release. But he makes money on investments and investments it all about value and value is the perception of the people and what they prepared to pay for something He really got to talk a big game because that how he got to position the future of this organisation And that could be for a number of reasons. It could be his own money. It could be the value of the company. It could be potential investors. It could be people that he wants to recruit and have part of the team. So there's that position that he's got to put out there of we are going to be the best and the rest suck because he needs to have that perception of value out in all aspects of the market. Well, and here's the other thing about the interview that now that you've brought this up, there was a couple of times Chris would say, hey, you said this in a previous interview like a year ago. Are you still going to live up to this claim? And I can't remember exactly what the claims were. And Robert at one point is like, dude, like, yeah, I said some of that stuff in the past, but we're trying to move past that. And I'm like, you've made some pretty bold claims and we haven't seen anything. This is what we have to go off of besides what we saw last week. This is what we have to go off of. I'm sorry, but like, this is what people are going to hold you to until you start pumping out machines. And I get it. They haven't taken a dime or whatever. But like a lot of people remember these interviews because they were very bold. They were very brash. And even this interview was. Right. And the reason why people remember these interviews as well is because a lot of them were written interviews on This Week in Pinball. So all you've got to do is go back and copy and paste because the stuff that he said is there. Yep. So the challenge he's had all along is he's come out talking a big game at a time when all these other companies went under after they had had bold claims. So the pinball community says, we've heard it all before, show us what you've got. Yep. And we've seen Raza. Well, and that's the part that confuses me too. We see Raza, but then we're told, hey, by the way, this isn't the cabinet. This isn't the final artwork. This isn't. And so what are we supposed to think about this then? And part of the interview that we did, you know, Robert said the best is yet to come. And so I just, I don't know. I'm ready for the rubber to meet the road. I'm ready to see an official product, get my hands on it. Robert, if you're listening, I bet Marty would like this media pass. I wouldn't mind a media pass.
    27:28
    I don't want to sound like I'm being a bit skeptical. I am. I think it's healthy skepticism. All along, we've said we want this to be a reality. We want all the claims to be true because I think for a long time we've all wanted a revolution in the pinball manufacturing world. We want it. We just want to be blown away and obviously pay less, right, which is kind of what has been said. These interviews just frustrate a lot of people. I don't think that there's anybody that really listens to it and says, okay, 100% everything you said I'm now satisfied with. And I think you said it earlier as well. Like some of the stuff you go, yep, cool, I get that. And other stuff you go, ooh, I don't know whether you should have said that. Yeah. So I don't know whether it's been a good exercise. I mean, it's fascinating for us. Yes, it's been very fascinating for us. And how can you not want this company to succeed? They've got J-Pop. J-Pop, regardless of what J-Pop did in the past, this is the man that brought us theater of magic, Circus Voltaire, World Cup soccer, Toten. I mean, just game after game. Yeah, Star Wars Episode I. Yeah.
    28:44
    We don't talk about that like we don't talk about Jar Jar Binks, okay? Yes! But then you look at Dennis Norman, Scared Stiff, Whitewater, I mean, Barry Ousler, and just two seconds. Why are we going with the theme park theme? When I think of hit games, this is just me. Maybe you love these games. Cool. I do.
    29:09
    I'm not a huge comment fan. I'm not a huge hurricane fan. It's just that trilogy of amusement parks. Cool. I'm glad you love them. That's the thing. I decided this the other day. Pinball is a lot like music. There is multiple genres. Yes, of course it is. It's multiple genres. You pick your flavor and you love it. You're not right or wrong for loving that. And that's what pinball is. And so if you love those machines, cool on you. But that's not my flavor of pinball. Yeah. And, you know, that's the whole thing. I mean, I don't think there really has been a machine that has been 100% had approval, right? If it was a Rotten Tomatoes Gorge, you'd have some people, some of them got 90% and some of them got 20% splats.
    29:55
    That doesn't mean that the 20% of people that actually liked it didn't buy enough units. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's what we don't know is what number of units need to be sold for this company to be profitable. And we'll never know that because that's part of Deep Root's business model that we shouldn't know about. I want this to work out so badly. And I don't know if it's because I'm loving everything I hear. Like I said, I don't know if it's the talent. I mean, I love Steve Beldin. How can you not love Steve Beldin? Yeah, he's great. I remember he was one of the first people I met when I went over to the US for the very first time for a pinball tournament, which was in disc. I was like this bright eyed, you know, rabbit in spotlights walking into the scene with all these famous people. And they didn't really know who I was. But he was one of the people that, you know, decided to have a conversation with me. And I remember that because I just sat down and he was just a really nice guy to have a chat with. Yep. That is him. You can't help but like him. Exactly. And how can you say you want him to fail? And that's just... I don't want him to fail. You don't. And it's, yeah, I just, I'm ready. I'm just, the hype has been there for so long. I'm about to pass out from all the excitement. Let's just get this done. Let's do this. Yeah. Let's do it. Guys, you've heard. Get us those media passes. This is what I'm hearing from Josh as well. You know it, man. You know it. You do. All right. So let's move on to another interview that happened this week. And I would encourage everybody, I'm going to link this in the show notes, but this is Damien Harton, who is the owner or the CEO, I guess, of Haggis Pinball. So he did an interview with Oz Retro Gamer, which is a site in Australia, gaming, sort of retro gaming and pinball run by Alex, who's a good friend of mine, actually. He's a really nice guy. And so he sat down and had an interview with Damien Harton about Celts and about the company. And I just wanted to ask you, because I've had conversations with Joe previously about Celts, and Joe has really, I guess for him it really hasn't been on his radar. And I want to know what your thoughts are on Celts. So I did watch the Straight Down the Middle video. I watched where Damien did walk us through it, and I thought it was very intriguing. I think some of the concepts are kind of cool that they're talking about there. I just have a hard time. I don't stay awake very long when it comes to single level play fields. And there's no knock against them. It's just we've seen it multiple times over the last couple of years. And I think if you're going to come out of the gate as a new company, you need to show something a little bit more. But that's just me. Well, that's why I was keen and it was a loaded question because we almost started talking about it before we recorded and I went, well, hold on to that because I want to know, the reason why I say that, I want to know what Haggis, because they're an Australian company and they're a likeable Australian company. I thought I'd make that clarification there.
    32:51
    And I've met Damien now a couple of times and I've watched all his videos and I've seen the blood, sweat and tears that he's put into this. And they're actually now doing daily vlogs, so we can link that to Haggis as well. So we've seen his journey all the way from the start to the end, and I've played Celts and I quite like it. It is actually an enjoyable game. It's got really deep rules for a single level playfield.
    33:20
    It should be, I think, flying out the door. It should be. I agree. I don't know. The reason why I'm asking you, I guess it's a bit of a sounding board. What do you think they could do to make this get more airplane, be more successful? Is it the single level? Is it the theme? Is the Celtic games just really not that exciting? What is it you think? Okay, as an American, I now know how you Australians feel about shipping. So when I hear a price tag and I hear it's shipping out of Australia to America and whatnot, and I have to tack on that extra money, I'm like, ooh, that kind of plays it out for me. You know what I'm saying? And so I don't know if that's what a lot of – I mean, your main pinball audience is in America. And so I don't know if that also clicks the light off in a lot of other brands. But that's kind of what clicked it off for me because I'm like, well, honestly, everyone in Australia should go out and support these guys. You guys now got pinball in Australia, a good, likable guy, support him. But I don't know – maybe that sounds hypocritical, but I'm like, I just don't know if my wallet is big enough to support him. I know, your wallet only has so much kindness in it. Exactly.
    34:37
    But I like what I'm seeing. The product is, I like the colors. I like the idea of, hey, you can have it matched up to your family emblem or whatever it is. Yeah. I don't know. And Damien's a nice guy. I love the video watching him. You can tell he's very proud of this machine as he's going through and explaining it. And I love that. I love when people are passionate about a project because you know that it's going to deliver on a whole different level. And so I don't know if that answers your question, but in a roundabout way, I haven't looked much more into it just because of price points clicked it off in my head for what it is. Yeah, I know we started talking about it before we recorded and kind of reading between the lines of what you said, it's almost like it just seems that this particular product is far away. The shipping is probably one thing as well, but it's almost like, well, you know, there's just something that's happening in Australia that doesn't really affect us. Yeah. And I think that is that plays into it a lot, too. It's like, oh, it's across seas. Like, it doesn't really affect us. Yeah. Yeah. So and I wonder whether previous somewhat Australian companies may have soured that experience for me personally. Definitely no, not at all. They're a whole new company. This is just me. I base everyone off their own merits and their own characters. So I don't even relate any of those other Australian companies. I don't know if Highway Counts is an Australian company because of the boats they're selling now, whatever they are out of Australia.
    36:11
    No, we've not actually heard much from him for a while. Yeah, so, and then. I don't really even got that up off the ground, so. And then obviously. A failed venture. I don't know what you call it, Thunder Turds, or I don't know. Oh, that is terrible. We don't mention it by its name at all. You know, every time I see that machine, I just think of Team America. I do not know if you've seen that movie. I know, yeah. That's all I think of. Hilarious. I'm like, where's Kim Jong-un? He should be on the back of this, like. I know, so Ron-ry. Yeah, so.
    36:41
    I know, so. Well, okay. So what I'm going to do, just a couple of notes that I, there's an interview, it is a written interview, so I will link it. Please go on and read it. It's a great article. But just a couple of things that sort of stood out on the article for me. He says, you know, what sets Huggies Pinball apart from others that have come and gone? He said, well, my intent at the very start was to build a manufacturing company. It was both essential and gratifying me to learn every aspect of what it takes to make a pinball machine and then set about doing that. One of the benefits of starting small with no prior knowledge was that I needed to understand every process intimately and that let me simplify or enhance wherever possible. Being in Australia also meant that I didn't have easy access to other pinball manufacturing supplies, so I needed to become self-sufficient as much as possible. And that's what he does. He's actually made a lot of the components himself. That's impressive. That's really impressive. Yeah, and I did do a factory tour and I looked at all these parts and I said, oh, where'd you get those from? He said, I made them. I'm like, but how could you make them? He said, I had to learn how to make them. And it's just, it blows my mind that he has just learned so much. And, you know, later on, he sort of says, what was it? I think the comment was, so it's been 18 months since he produced this machine to when he first opened up the back box to his pinball for the first time. So, you know what I mean? Like, that's how much he knew to now. And I wonder whether that plays into the minds of people, whether they sort of think, well, where's all that expertise?
    38:16
    Well, it's a lot of it. He's a very intelligent guy, and he's just learned all that stuff over that last 18 months. Oh, and this oozes passion. Like, you can't tell me that this guy doesn't want to make a pinball company. If you're out there making your own pinball parts, you're dedicated to this to a certain point. And so there is nothing wrong with that. I admire that. That's awesome. Yeah, I think so too. In fact, I've got the quote. He said, I came from not knowing how to open the back box on my newly purchased Pinbot to starting manufacturing of our first pinball machine, Kels, and that was in 13 months. Oof. So, you know what? And he's traveling. He's gone to TPF. He's gone to Expo. He did Melbourne Flipout.
    38:58
    Anyway, we wish him all the best. Please, everybody, go and check out that article. It's a good read. I agree. I support Haggis. They're a legit company.
    39:08
    Yeah, absolutely. So another thing that sort of came up this week was, let's talk digital pinball, right? So have you ever played one of those virtual pinball cabinets? I have not. I've played it on my phone, but I've never played the lookalike pinball machine. I have. They're nowhere near as good as a real pinball machine. That is true. That is very true. But it is very true. And there's always a little tiny bit of flipper lag that always just feels a little bit odd that always reminds you that you're playing a digital pinball. But they're kind of interesting, I guess. They're not cheap. I will say that. They're not cheap. They're less than a stern pro. I will say that. but it's not a real pinball machine. Well, it depends what kind of, you've got Pinball FX coming out with that, or maybe they did come out with it. I thought it was like six grand or something like that, but it also has the sensors in it. So if you nudge, it actually is supposed to respond like you're nudging. Right, okay. But that's the problem though. Like you get more games, but you get less of the feel.
    40:18
    Yeah, just a side note. This was, I reported on this a long time ago on one of our episodes, But there's a guy in Melbourne that's actually built a, it's almost like just the front part of a pinball machine. You know, where the corner door is and where the flippers are and it stands up. Like it's just the end of a pinball machine and then you put on VR goggles and you play pinball and it feels real. And I reported at the time that how I knew it was real was that the ball nearly went down the outline. And I started trying to nudge the machine. And then when I realized nothing was there, I went, oh, okay, that's right. I'm playing a machine, a VR machine, but it felt so real. But the actual, these ones that are just on that flat LCD screen, they're just not so real. But the reason why I'm talking about this is that Walmart is now selling these. They're about a three-quarter sized pin for $400 US. And that's really not bad to me. I think that's reasonable. And let's be honest, these are all Gottlieb games, right? I'm looking at this list right now. Yes. So. There's a couple of good ones. And let's be honest, Gottlieb machines break down all the time. At least they did for me when I owned them. So if you're going to have a Gottlieb machine, this is the one to have. Yes, you know it. Because you're going to spend $400 just in the first two months you own a Gottlieb machine. And that's if you fix it yourself.
    41:48
    Well, I'll tell you the game to the start. And I'll tell you the games that I like. So Big Shot, I mean, that's good. That's on the Pinball Arcade. It's a good game. El Dorado and the City of Gold, that's good. That's the one that's got the playfield of, like, Target Alpha and another one. It's just a very, the original El Dorado, a very used playfield design. I like the layout. The one I don't like about this, I think the first time they did a solid state version of it, the sound package on this is dreadful. It's so annoying, the sounds. Anyway. Well, does it have like the most drop targets on a pinball machine ever or something like that? Probably. It's just this giant row right at the back and then you've got five drop targets down towards the flippers as well. It's a good game. I just don't like the sounds. Celebrate 37, that's a good game. It's not a great game. The best thing about Celebrate 37 is it's art. So if you were to have a machine, it's worth it because it's a great art piece to have in your house. Totally agree. But to play as a virtual table, maybe not so great. Black Hole, again, that's probably one of those ones it's best to have as a virtual machine because they break down and they're very difficult to fix. I am a fan of Black Hole. A lot of people aren't. I agree. It is a good game and it always intrigues me when this game comes up, Stranger Things always comes along with this. Because you know that lower playfield could be the upside down. I'm like, yes. Yeah. Correct. It could be. Their lower playfields on a Gottlieb are honestly the only ones I do like to play. I'm not a huge fan of these new BB ones. But hey, that's just me. But do continue. Do continue. Yes.
    43:29
    The next one is Jax Open. Another one with a huge row of targets. I actually really quite like Jax Open. I've played that quite a lot in tournaments. So, yeah, it does what I need to do. It's an AM. That's the one where you have to, like, it's got, like, a Royal Flush or something you can knock down, right? Yeah, that's the one. Yes, that one's a good one. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, it is a good one. The next one is Going Nuts, which is interesting because it's also on the Pimball Arcade, and it was, I don't even know whether it was a proper production machine. I think they made, like, five prototypes of it, and it's the one where it's all timed. You've got a countdown effect. Oh, yes. Yeah. It's good. It's a fun game. Yeah, yeah. It's not bad. Hmm. Again, I would never want to own one, but, you know, virtual's fine. This next one you got on here, Haunted House, this is one of the ones I first got into my collection when we got into pinball. Love this game. I know it's not, okay, love it as, like, a beginner standpoint. Yeah, when it broke down the third time and I replaced all the boards in it, yeah, I didn't like it so much after that. Yeah, got leaves at this time weren't known for being very reliable. So I've talked about the fact that we used to have pinball machines at my school and we had a black hole at one stage and we had a haunted house at one stage and they were just always, always out of order. Yeah. But it's a beautiful game. It's funny because the guy that I actually sold it to, he loves Haunted House, but it literally breaks down like every other month. And he's just, I'm like, dude, it's time to sell it. But he's like, I love it too much. But you're not playing it. This is a literal definition of you have artwork in your basement. You've got a 1700 pound weight or whatever, you know. Just turn it on. Just don't hit the start button. Exactly. It's a nice ornament. And I like the sounds on Haunted House. They got it right with this one. Absolutely.
    45:29
    The next one is Victory. It's a car racing game. I've never actually played this one for real. I've only ever played the one on Pinball Arcade. It's a very linear game. It's almost like it probably came out the same time as they did Street Fighter 2 in that you've got to hit this shot, then you've got to go to the next shot. And I think there's like seven or eight shots and you've just got to all hit them in a row. Yeah. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I haven't played much of Victory. So it's on the pinball arcade, though, if I remember correctly.
    45:58
    Yep. And then Bonebusters, which I'm not a fan of. Lights, Camera, Action, I am a fan of. I think that's quite an underrated game. And we used to have that at a place here called Bartronica. They used to have that machine and we used to have in tournaments. It's a terrible tournament game because it's got a catch-up feature. But it's an interesting game. I agree. It's a fun game. It's definitely different from everything else that is out there. Yep. And it's got an interactive back glass, which is kind of funny. Everyone loves those, right? Yeah, they're kind of cool. Class of 1812 is a bit of a stinker. And then there's TX Sector. What's weird about Class of 1812, for some odd reason over here in the States, they're starting to gain traction. People want these in their collection now. It's really weird. But anywho, yeah, keep going. Okay, and then the last one, TX, TX, TX, TX Sector, which is another one of these games where it is a beautiful art and sound piece, I guess you could say it. As soon as you realise it's just all about the spinners. Spinners, yeah. Yeah, it's not as fun as it should be, but the sound package is awesome. I actually really quite like the layout as well. I love the look of this machine. I love the sound of this machine. I would love a TX sector. I just don't know how long I would keep it for. Well, they're fairly rare, aren't they? They weren't mass produced either. So, I mean, looking at this list for 400 bucks, that's really not that bad. You could pull the whole, like, if this is similar to the arcade one-ups, Walmart has them for so long that they finally stick them out in the middle of the aisle and they slap it a half-priced, half-off price tag for like $199 or whatever. And so if you got a friend that buys one of these and you think, hey, I wouldn't mind my kids having this for a cheaper price, keep an eye on it and put it in. It might be the thing that sparks your kid's interest in pinball because that's what it was for me. I mean, I grew up on the pinball game, just the Windows one, the Space Cadet or whatever it was. Because I didn't have pinball in rural Utah. And so when I got intrigued in that, I wanted to learn more. And it wasn't until later on that someone finally directed me in front of a Circus Voltaire for my first pinball machine. I'm like, this is the best. So you got to plant the seeds somehow, right? And really for that price tag, 400 bucks.
    48:24
    But that's what I view it as a kid's machine. Okay, so this is it, right? So, if you think about some, you know, pinball machines that have been geared towards kids in the past, they can be $400 to $500. I mean, I don't even know how much those Zizzle machines were, but they were like $1,000 probably. I don't know.
    48:50
    Stern's PIN, like the home versions, you know, they're still $3,500, $4,000. This is a $400 virtual PIN. New in box, if I may. New in box. Absolutely.
    49:05
    This is – every home should have one of these under the Christmas tree this year is what I'm saying. I agree.
    49:13
    There's really nothing wrong with this machine. And really, if you're going to – like, I get it. It's a virtual pin. People argue it's not real pinball. But you're not going to get these – what is this, 12 games? You're not going to get this all for $400. And, like, I get it. You shake the machine, the ball's not going to react. Whoop-dee-doo. Yeah, yeah. So if it's $400, it could spark interest is what you're saying. And that's because it still is a physical thing. It is a physical game that you're playing just doesn't have physicality under the play field. Yeah, well, and that's a perk to some people. Like we've talked about this on the Loser Kid Pinball podcast. I talk to a lot of people that their main hesitation is I don't want to even take the glass off Because everyone's seen those pictures where the guy's taking the glass off and they bumped it on a corner of something and it shattered in their hands. You know, they don't even want to take the black back glass off. They want to pretty much turn on the machine flip it and turn it off And this right here is a good medium point from playing it on your cell phone to actually owning a real Jurassic Park from Stern
    50:21
    Yep, it's a gateway drug. Yep. We need more of those. We need these drugs. We do need these gateway drugs. So there you go. Look, I say $400 for what you actually get, the physical thing. I think that's reasonable money. I would love that if you could hack into it and actually put other machines on it. Oh yeah, get some of those free games on there.
    50:46
    The virtual pinball realm is amazing with some of the stuff they've come up with. If you could hack this and do that, which if you could do that with an arcade one-up, I don't see why you can't do it with this.
    50:57
    Can you do that with an arcade one-up? Yeah, I've seen people hack them all the time and put their own 1,200 games in one-on-one, those things. Okay, cool. Well, yeah, because really you've got the most expensive part of these things is actually the hardware. So, you know, if there's another chip you need to put in it, that's probably going to be a small portion of what you need to actually spend on it. Yep. Well, even if you just have to plug your computer into it, you know, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, fair enough. So speaking of novelty games, I guess, it's going to be my segue, I guess. Well, American Pinball have a new machine out. Well, not really American Pinball, but American Arcade, which is American Pinball, have got a redemption game out. Because I believe IAPA is on this weekend or it's already happened in the States, which is a big arcade and amusement expo type thing. Yes.
    52:02
    And yeah, so American Pinball have got a – I keep saying American Pinball, but it's the same company – have got a game out called The Flying Dutchman, which effectively is a ball-throwing game into this cylinder that spins around and you've got to hit into the hole. I'm sorry, but that sounds really terrible. Like, just the way that you just explained that. Any – keep going, keep going. Just kidding. Yeah, yeah. So here's what I think. I think this is a ridiculously smart move from these people because there's no money to be made in pinball. Come on, guys. Robert Mueller, what are you doing? There is no money in this industry, buddy. But there is a crap load of money in Redemption Games. There really is. I took my son to a bowling alley the other day. It was an arcade slash bowling alley. It's an updated one. The first thing you see when you walk in is all the redemption games. Do you know where the pinball machines were? They were on your way to the bathroom. You know me. The first thing I see, I'm like, let's go get some pinball. It's two levels to this place. I'm on the first level like, where's the pinball machines? It wasn't until later after we drank all of our soda and stuff. I'm like, I got to hit the restroom. What are these stacked in the hallway for? You know what I'm saying?
    53:16
    Yeah. And my kids are the same. I've taken my daughters in particular. My son plays pinball somewhat, but my daughters, if I take them to a family entertainment centre and I say, let's play this machine, it doesn't matter whether it's pinball or a video game, the first thing that they do is they look to see whether there's tickets coming out of it. If it does not have tickets coming out of it, they won't play it. Whether it's a video game or whether it's a pinball, if there are no tickets, no go. Totally agree. That's how my son is too. Unless if it's got Halo on it. That new game that Josh Sharp and company came out with, fantastic by the way. Oh, that Halo game. I don't know whether I have seen it.
    54:02
    It's fantastic. You've got to find one. It's a fun game. Okay. I'll do that. So anyway, good on you American Pinball slash arcade for putting a redemption game out. It will fly out the door and should make you lots of money and then you can continue making more pinball machines. That's how I'm seeing this particular venture. Yeah. If that's what you got to do, that's what you got to do. I think that's what you got to do. No one's breaking down Chicago Gaming's door because they're making games on the side instead of just pinball. No, exactly. So what I wanted to do then, just, I don't know, I wanted to talk about 2019. We are nearing the end of the year. Oh, Josh, I cannot wait for the end of this year. Why is that? It's because you've got a big surprise coming, right? Right. It's because I'm finishing my job at the end of this year. That's what it is, right? That's just a side note. I have resigned from my job and I finish at the end of the year. And I'm looking forward to taking a few months off. Right. I've given myself six months. Anyway, the side note. But end of the year is coming up and we're heading towards the end of the year and I still think that there's probably one new game revealed to come before the end of the year and that will be the next game from Stern Pinball which will be a Scott Denecy game. But until that time, I just wanted to have a quick look back at the games of 2019 and whether you think this has been a good year for Pinball Machine. Well, hold on two seconds, though. I find it interesting that you think it's just Scott DeNisi's game. You don't think that Stern, the last Cornerstone was in July. That's almost six months ago. You don't think they'll show another one before the end of the year? You know, the problem that I've got there is that I keep feeling that Jurassic Park has just come out because I got my Jurassic Park two days ago. That's true. But I keep forgetting that that was, yeah, revealed months ago and Elvira months ago. So, yeah, I hope Stern do give us another game. I don't have anything on the radar for Stern. Like, you know, normally by now, all the rumours will be flooding about what's coming next. And there are some rumours whether it's going to be, you know, the Stranger Things or whether it's going to be Toonage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Led Zeppelin. They're the three rumoured titles. But no one's really reaching out to be saying, you know what, it's going to be here any day now. What are your thoughts? A couple episodes back, we did the math. I really think it's if Stranger Things is what Brian Eddy is working on, I think it's Stranger Things. And the only reason being is because we went over the timeline and kind of placed everyone where they're supposed to be at. You guys talked about John Borg doing T.H. Maneu Turtles. And if that's the case, he just released Munsters in January of this year. I don't see him releasing. But he is prolific. He can release three games in a year. Oh, really? Well, he has previously with Stern, yeah. That's true. So there is a possibility, but they've publicly come out and said that they take about 13 months per game. So that's the other math that we added into that. Okay, sure. And Brian Eddy's been hired on for, what, a year and a half now? Yeah. It feels right for his game to be next. Okay. That's my thoughts. Okay. So you heard it here first, second, maybe 15 times. I would like it to be Stranger Things. I think that it, on one side it's like, oh well it's a popular TV show, oh you know Sturms now released another popular TV show. Sure I get it, but Stranger Things isn't a very conventional TV show. I mean arguably you'd say the same about The Walking Dead being about zombies. But it's really an unusual show. It really is. We live in an awesome time where D&D elements can go into a TV show mixed with 80s nostalgia and pretty much Jedi mind tricks from this girl and people are gobbling it up like it's candy. And so I am intrigued to see. I've seen all the seasons. I've enjoyed them. I'm not a very big critic of them. I don't think that season one is better than season three. I know a lot of people are like, if you're going to do it, just do season one. I don't care. I think season three, visually, season three would make more sense to me. Not because of storyline, but there was just a lot of beautiful colors. They mixed fireworks in with a lot of the artwork. I don't know. I think it's a smart move for Stern to do Stranger Things. Okay. I think so too. The reason why I like it is because even though I sort of said on one side it's just another TV show that they've got a license for, I think that the concept itself is quite left of center and that would make it feel like something different from Stern. I agree. Everything's kind of a, it's all kind of samey-seamy right now, isn't it? It does feel that way, doesn't it?
    59:34
    There's nothing wrong with that. No, well, I know. When you say samey samey, and that's – well, let's get going. I was going to say, just looking at this list that you provided. Go for it. That's what I was going to say. So read the list out. What's on there? Take Celts out because even though it's out this year, that's not going to help our argument. Okay, so we start off with Munsters and then Black Knight's sort of rage. Jurassic Park, we've got Oktoberfest, Elvira, Willy Wonka, and then that's it for this list. But I mean, what is that? Like four or five of them are Stearns and it's a monster theme, a monster theme. I would almost argue that Black Knight's a monster theme because you're trying to destroy it.
    60:18
    Well, you are destroying monsters, I guess. Yeah, like, I mean, it is Black Knight. Like, don't get me wrong, that is. But there's a lot of monster elements between the skeleton army and stuff like that. And then you've got Jurassic Park, which is your typical movie theme. Deadpool. For the monster game as well. Yep. And well, Deadpool called it out, right? He's like, yeah, we're not doing another movie theme. It's like, yeah, looking at this, it's like, yeah, actually the movie theme is the one that stands out because the rest of them are monsters. Yeah. Okay.
    60:49
    And then, yeah, Willy Wonka and Oktoberfest. They're different. They feel a bit different. I guess that's what I was kind of saying. What do you think 2019 will be remembered for? Jurassic Park. I mean, there's no question about it. I still haven't gotten my hands on a Willy Wonka, and I think that's the problem with JJP is the quantity that goes out of their door is few. If we're going to compare to Stern, they're a lot less. And so I was just talking with Neil Shelton of Pinquest today, and he's like, I just bought one, and it's like the first one in the state of Denver that will be on location for a Willy Wonka. And so he's like, I got it because no one around here has played it, and so let's put it on location and have some fun. And so I think that's when it comes to end of the year, and I'm like, who won it? It's Jurassic Park because it's Keith Elwin. And, yeah, so. But, okay, and I get that. What I guess I'm also saying, because I also agree, you know, Jurassic Park, you know, you might as well give them the trippy now. Yep. But if I think about last year, last year was the year, I would say, of Iron Maiden and Pirates, right? Oh, I totally agree. And, but I don't, I don't see it necessarily as just those titles. I think they were two titles that said, hang on, we're going to do something a little bit different. And they were hits as a result of it. Both had good rules. Both had seemingly unconventional layouts to some degree. I mean, it was the first pro that Stern had that had four flippers on it. So, you know, and it had a lot of sideways actions and loops either side. So that was quite innovative for Stern. Then Pirates had all the attempted innovations and some of them obviously had to be taken back. But it was an innovative title.
    62:49
    So if I think back on 2018, I go, do you know what? That was the year where we saw two manufacturers do something different. I agree. And I'd almost argue that this year has been more about Pirates than it has Willy Wonka because of the smaller quantity and the people actually getting hands on it. So if I say that 2019 was all about the moment where these two manufacturers came out and said, we're going to do something a little bit different to push the envelope, you wouldn't say crazy innovations, but it was pushing what Pinball does. What do you think 2019 is going to be known for? Year of the Monster? Year of the Monster, Year of the Jurassic Park, Year of the Slot Machine sounding Willy Wonka.
    63:42
    One that I forgot that's on this list that a lot of people overlook, Star Wars The Pin. Yeah, true. I don't know if you count it or not.
    63:54
    Yeah, I would count it. It's a full-size machine. In my opinion, 2019 is the year that Stern stepped up their game and produced a lot more pinball machines in one year than they have for a long time. It's what I will remember it as. Because they really have. I mean, looking at this list, and we just named another Stern pinball machine that came out, that's six games in one year. I mean, that's pretty impressive.
    64:22
    It is. So are we saying 2019 is the year of quantity over quality? Possibly. You could argue that with Star Wars.
    64:34
    With both Star Wars. Yeah. Well, no, I'm not saying you make it sound so terrible. See, I'm twisting your words.
    64:45
    But yeah, because I look at that list and I just think, and I literally, again, another reason why I was actually started playing, Jurassic Park before we recorded as well because I just wanted to have it fresh in my mind before we started recording. I only got it Wednesday night and it's now, well, it's pretty much Saturday night now. God, I don't know what time it is there, but it must be really late.
    65:09
    It's not too bad. It's 11.30. Okay, that's all right. Yeah, it's not bad. So as amazing as Jurassic Park is, and it's amazing, I will talk about it in my week, And I think that is the standout and it is the quality machine of the year.
    65:32
    It's still not that you've completely blown my mind and you've done something I've never seen before. Does it make sense? I don't want to downplay Jurassic Park because it's easily the best machine this year and I'm freaking loving playing it. Oh, it's so good. I just can't. My son has to drag me away from the machine when I'm at the arcade. He's like, Dad, I've spent all your money. I'm only playing because I've gotten replays and I've gotten extra balls. And he's like, Dad, it's time to go. Let someone else play the machine.
    66:03
    I agree with you. I think Jurassic Park has broke some new boundaries in proving that you can put literally a shot on every single inch of the play field. It's literally a fan layout from the left sling all the way to the right sling. But, yeah, I'm just going to leave it at that. I guess what I was going to say with the other machines then. So if you think about the success of these machines, so Jurassic Park's been a huge hit. Everyone loves it. I don't know what the units have sold. They don't tell it. But let's look at the others from Stern. Munsters.
    66:40
    Munsters hasn't really been all that favorable. It hasn't. And I think part of the problem is with this one is right at the end of the year last year as Monster Bash came out. And so it was like, do I buy Monster Bash or do I buy Munsters? Right. Well, when I was trying to sell my Munsters, someone was like, oh, I think I'm going to get Monster Bash instead. I'm like, oh, well, I can't compete with that. I'm sorry. No, you can't. It is what it is. So Munsters was a bit average. Then you had Black Knight. Which I would say is a bit average.
    67:18
    I've heard it described as pretty much no fear but as Black Knight. And so I can't give much opinion on this one because I've played it in a tournament for Salt Lake Gaming Con and that was it. I mean, I didn't have enough time to even understand. I knew I was supposed to hit the shield to get it up and the mode was behind it or something like that.
    67:41
    It's okay. Look, it's actually a good game, but it's just a good game. You know, it's not the hit. So then after Jurassic Park we had Elvira, and now Elvira has also had some interesting feedback because a lot of people said that it's all about the mechs, but the layout itself is pretty, pretty basic. Yeah. For a starting price game of $7,500 that goes all the way up to $15,000, I mean, if you're going to compare it to JJP because that's what we got in that price range, would you rather want an Elvira or would you want a Willy Wonka?
    68:21
    I mean, that's what we start arguing. It is what it is. Or would you rather want a Pirates for that price? I mean, I would want to Pirates, but I wouldn't. Like, Pirates is just a marvel. It is such a good game. There is just so much to do on that machine. And, again, it's one of those things where it's not just the rules. There's just parts of the playfield that have just got different things on them that your brain shifts its thinking when you're looking at different parts of the playfield. That's how good it is. Oh, I totally agree. I totally agree. And so, like I said, let's reel it back to Elvira. And I like some of the shots. Like I like the coffin, like the ball rolls over the top of it until the coffin pops up and snatches the ball. Like I said, it's one of those things, though, like I don't know anyone that's bought one. And so I live in the West and it seems like machines stop at about Denver, Colorado. Well, I do know somebody that is getting an Elvira. Obviously, they take a lot longer to get here and I will actually get to play it. And they've already said that we can go and stream it. So I will get to have three hours of playing Elvira. So I'll be able to know more about it. But I guess what I'm talking about is the reception that the public or the community have had to these games. Pretty cool on Monsters, pretty cool on Black Knight, pretty cool on Elvira, and really good on Jurassic Park. And then you've also got Star Wars The Pin, which was also a pretty cool response to it as well. So that's why I was making that point. You were saying, yes, they've made a lot of games, but is it really quantity over quality? My opinion right now, from where I stand, probably not. It's not quality over quantity. There's nothing that just jumps out at me and says, hey, this is what I need in my collection right now. Don't get me wrong. I love Jurassic Park. I want one in my collection. I really do. But I'm a huge Ninja Turtles fan, and I'd rather hold off and see what the future holds. Yeah, okay. So that theme you're excited about? That is the theme I want. And people have reached out to me. It amazes me the response I have received about Teenage Mutant Turtles because people just, they're like, I can't wait for this. This is the machine that's always needed to be done right because Dada East, just wonderful job, right? That machine's just fantastic.
    70:55
    Just very, very quickly, and I know I'm not going to have all the list, but just off the top of my head, Alice Cooper, this is 2018, Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle, it was fresh, it was different, right? It was. It's a beautiful machine too, and yeah, I agree. It's just different. Deadpool, right? Deadpool was just kind of really cool and really different, right? Yeah, that's the thing I love about Deadpool too is everyone complained at first because it was too different and then people got to know the game and loved it. Yep, there you go. Iron Maiden, right? We already talked about it. It was pretty much game of the year. Pirates of the Caribbean came out last year. And then Beatles, right? Which was really different as well. But besides the price, people really enjoy that game. I hear a lot of love from that game. Besides the price, like you said, if you take price out of the equation, which if we could, we all would do it with pinball. But you take that out of the equation, people want that in their collection. Beatles just feels right when you play it. Right. So that's what I'm saying. They're the games of 2018 versus the games of 2019. Yeah. So I thank you for bringing this up. You've just shattered glass. I don't know. I don't know if you have this moment when you're thinking also in the glass shatters in your brain, but it just has for me. And I can definitely see where you're coming from. It never was the year that that's something I just had to have because the innovation really pushed me through that. So maybe that's another reason Deep Roots. Because people are salivating at Deep Root because they're promising the moon and we're not getting the moon right now. Yeah, yeah.
    72:37
    I hadn't come to that conclusion until far into our discussion. I guess it wasn't on the show notes to go, well, I'm going to tell you that I think 2019's been pretty shabby. I just came to it and went, oh, now that I've looked at it, I don't know how I'll remember it. It'll be the year of Jurassic Park, no doubt about it. And maybe, maybe, maybe Stranger Things will change all of that. Maybe. I feel, I don't know, Brian Eddy, in my opinion, has the bar set high. Like the only other person that has it higher, it's got to be Keith Elwin. And Keith Elwin is just killing. I mean, we've all seen Jurassic Park. Most of us have gotten our hands on it. It is a fantastic. I'm so jealous of you. I wish I had a Jurassic Park in my collection. I really do. Yeah, the biggest problem I've got is that I really don't want to get sick of it because I was so enthused about getting Iron Maiden and I sold it. I wasn't so enthused about getting Munsters and I sold it. And I think it's just because I played it so much, I got over it really quickly. So I'm not playing my Jurassic Park unless I'm streaming, except for that one game I had just before we started recording. because I just want to try and prolong its longevity. That's what you need to do is you need to get one of those egg timers and you just need to set it. You knew you had to record tonight, so you're like, okay, I can only play this for so long. That's right. It was actually that. I knew that was exactly what I knew. I started about an hour before we record and I'm like, okay, I know I now can't stay on this because I've got to go up and do all the show notes and research topics. So that's why I was like, okay, one game and that's it. Done. Nothing wrong with that.
    74:22
    All right. So. Social media watch. Doo-doo. Ow! Yes. It's just one of those things people have always wanted to do. Everyone does it in their car when they're listening to Head to Head. I don't care if you say you don't, you're lying and you need to stop lying. You all do it. I don't know whether you know, but that is actually the theme tune for a news program, one of the most popular news programs in Australia. They don't have that anymore, but it's the old theme tune that we grew up with. I don't know why, but every time I hear it, I think of James Bond and Tent's scene. The dude's around the corner and that's the music that's playing because someone's about to get shot.
    75:14
    It just the news program That was a really intense news program I don know what happened down there Yeah I can tell you the news in Australia is pretty much cats stuck up in a tree Well, except recently where literally Townsham people have been losing their homes due to the ridiculous bushfires at the moment. Yeah.
    75:40
    So a couple of things I just wanted to note that came up on Social Media Watch. I am going to link all of these. So we don't necessarily have to go too much. But first one is Joel de Guzman. There's an interview with him. And there's been some rumors about Joel. Do you know Joel de Guzman at all? I do not. You're going to have to refresh my memory. He is. He's obviously in the pinball scene, but he's also he's an artist. OK. And I know him. I knew him, first of all, through Mrs. and Dr. Pin because they know him and I think he's done some artwork for their show. And Joe Lemire knows him because I think he must be Massachusetts or that vicinity.
    76:25
    And the rumour of it is that he is going to be doing American Pinball's fourth machine. Ooh, juicy. I like that.
    76:34
    I'm looking him up right now. He looks like a nice guy. Well, he actually reached out to me a few weeks ago to say hi and from what everyone says, he's just a really, really nice guy. So go and check out that interview. It's a bit of fun. There's also a video, Todd Tucky from TNT. Now surely you know Todd Tucky. Yes, who doesn't know Todd Tucky? We've all ran into those videos. It was one of those things we just we nearly had him on our show last year. It was his side story. Hopefully we'll get him back on the show. But we were trying to get him on the show just because we wanted to talk to Todd Tucky because it's Todd freaking Tucky. You know, it is. Yeah. So many stories. And it was just before his book came out. So the day that we had organized to catch up with him, we were trying to get in contact with him. He wasn't there. So Ryan actually rang him on his mobile and he's like, oh, well, you know, I could do it now, but I'd rather wait until the book comes out so I can talk about the book. And so then obviously when the book came out, well, we all know how that went. Yeah, yeah. We never really had him on our show. But anyway, Todd Tucky, he's hilarious. I've watched so many of his videos. He's hilarious. So he's actually put out a video of Pinball Expo. So we will link that as well. Make sure you check that out. I'm going to have to check that out. I appreciate Tog Tucky because he's the one that taught me you put lithium batteries in your pinball machine if you don't want battery acid down the front of those circuit boards. He's a very wise man. Yes, he is. He's also very funny.
    78:13
    He's a national treasure, as you say, to our pinball. Yes, he is a national treasure, except for that time when he chucked a pinball machine off the top of a building. That didn't go down well. No, it did not. Well, I think it was a Gottlieb World Challenge soccer. Oh, that's fine then. It deserved it. That's what I think everyone says. It's like, yeah, you could, you know, an exception could be that. Well, maybe Thunderbirds. The last one was another site that I always go to is Pinball News. Everybody go to pinballnews.com. They've also got an article about inside Chicago Gaming. So you get to see inside their factory. It's actually just a really good thing to just see what these companies all look like on the inside. You know, and I'm very impressed with Chicago Gaming Company. They've done a really good job coming into this market and bringing a product that we all know and love and just kind of stepping it up with it. So I'm looking at these pictures right now. This is awesome. This is cool to look at. It's really good, isn't it? I obviously cannot wait for them to bring out an original license theme, like a new game rather than a remake. I'm looking forward to that, and I think 2020 is going to be the year that it happens. I agree. Well, if the rumors are right, I mean, we've been hearing it for a while now that they've got an original game coming, and time will only tell, right? That's exactly right. So there you go. So that was Social Media Watch. Tell me what's been going on in your week in Pinball and in particular, what are Lit Frames? Oh, so I don't know if you listened, but Brad Hunter was on from Lit Frames a couple episodes ago right before Pinball Expo. Yes. And we were talking and we're like, you know what? We want to give back to those that have been listening. And this is kind of our Christmas present to everyone because I don't know everyone. And to send everyone $5 would be a pain in the butt to do. So if you go to our friend Brad Hunter's website, litframes.com, and you type in Loserkid as your coupon code, you get $5 off your purchase right now. So these are effectively lit frame boxes that you can put your translates in, right? Yes, yes, your translate. And he has it for all different – he's got it for Bally Williams, he's got it for Stern. So there's a lot of variety here too. I'm not going to break the news just yet, but we do have something exciting that we're going to give away that we've been talking with Brad. I wonder if it's a lit frame. Maybe. You're going to have to listen. I don't know. It's pretty cryptic the clues you're giving me, so it was hard to look that up. Anyway, do it. And as I said, coupon code is LOSERKID? Yep. So you're getting about $10 off right now because he's doing a 5% off the whole website. You do that extra $5, it gets you about $15 off. So yeah, if you've been waiting to buy one of these, it's time to get your butt out there and do it. Yeah, I think they're awesome. Scott just got one in and he got the – is it Brian Cosner that did the Monster Bash remake, re-theme? He did a more contemporary whatever. Oh, Brian Allen. Brian Allen, yeah, sorry. Brian Allen did that and Scott got that Translite along with this frame and he just loves it. He says that it has like multicolored stuff that goes around the whole frame, changes lights. It's a cool way to look at it. I've got a Game of Thrones Pro Translight that I won in a tournament years ago.
    81:49
    If you look at it, you go, well, there's nothing I can do with it because it's so dark. This is exactly what you need for those things. Exactly. It's Christmas time. Ladies, if you're listening and you want to get your man something, that's the way to do it. Men, if you want to get yourself something and blame it on your wife or whoever it is, your significant other, do that as well. Exactly.
    82:11
    I'd buy one if I had a job, but I don't. That's going to be your excuse for the next six months. I'd do that, but I don't have a job. Yeah, it's like, oh, I would buy all those 10 amazing machines that are completely revolutionary, but no money. Sorry guys, maybe if you added more money on Patreon, that might help.
    82:35
    Sorry Girl Scouts, I can't buy any cookies because I don't have a job. Yes, you do, selling cookies. Exactly.
    82:46
    My limited edition LE Jurassic Park arrived this Wednesday and I streamed it so I will link it to the stream. Now, all was not perfect, though.
    83:01
    What's going on? You've got me scared now. Between all the playfield issues and whatnot, please don't tell me you've got a cracked playfield already, or a chip playfield. I don't have a cracked playfield. I'll tell you what I've got. I have got swirl marks all over my playfield. Well, that's just, it adds to the ambience. It puts more English on that ball that you need.
    83:26
    Yeah, it was kind of like, huh, really? That's a bit interesting. I haven't polished it to see whether it's going to come off, and there was a whole sort of film of wax as well. It kind of looked like somebody had done the final bit of polishing with a gritty rag.
    83:51
    Oof. In fact... You've sent me a picture, aren't you? Just watch the video that I've just sent you. See what you think, whether you see the same thing that I've seen. Oh, wow. Yeah, it looks like, you know when a wood floor has been polished and then six months later it's been walked on for so long you can see the scrapes from the shoes? That's kind of what this looks like to me. Yeah, well that was new in box. That was, yeah, so that's a bit interesting. We'll see how that goes. It doesn't bother me. When you're actually playing the machine, you don't see it. It's only when you look from a different angle and you've got the reflection of the light above.
    84:32
    But yeah, that's been interesting. Besides that, though, God, it plays good. Oh, it's so good. It's so good.
    84:42
    And that brings me right back to anything. I don't care what it is in the pinball machine. Please just don't let it be the play field. I don't want to fix the play field. I know. So what I'm hoping, I'm just going to put a bit of Novus I on it, polish it all, and hopefully it all just goes. Otherwise, if that's actually swirled onto the clear coat, that's going to be a bit of a challenge, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. But great layout, great rules, great choreography, I think is probably what I'm going to say that really stands out so far in that it highlights to you when you've done something amazing visually and orally. So it's, I don't know, it's just got these moments throughout the game that just get you excited. Oh, God, it's so good. Oh, I totally agree. There's something special about this game and I think we can all fill it. It's fantastic. There's not much else you can say about it. And it's still on 1.0 code, so at least I do still get the update experience at some stage as well. So I'm happy about that. Okay, you know what's wonderful about this machine? Is that left ramp to right ramp to that side shot, skill shot. I know. Oh, you get that. You feel like King Kong. It just, oh. I did it for the very first time. Like, I streamed on Wednesday night for three hours, didn't get it once. The game I played just before we recorded now, I got it, and oh, it feels good, doesn't it? Oh, it feels fantastic. You're like, you know what? I'm getting satisfaction. I'm going to walk away from the machine because I'm having such a good game right now. Yes. In five seconds. Daniel, from here, let's stop now. Yes.
    86:35
    That's exactly right. It is. It's a masterpiece. And I don't know any of the rules at this stage, except I know how to start Raptor Multiball. I know how to start T-Rex Multiball. And I know how to start Chaos Multiball. But I haven't really started familiarizing myself with the modes and all that kind of stuff, which I will over time. And everybody in chat was telling me to do all this stuff. So I'm saying, no, don't tell me. I want to work this out in my own time as part of my longevity plan for Jurassic Park. I agree. I got to tell you, though, one of my favorite modes, it's the second T-Rex mode. It's where the T-Rex is chasing you. You got to hit the ball, then a ramp. Ball, then the ramp. But it just, it's so satisfying. Like you said, it's that choreography. You hit the ball and you hear the shift of the truck and then you shoot the ramp and you hear the roar of the T-Rex getting mad because you're out running him. It's just, it's those little moments that are all crafted together. It's just, oh, delicious. This is the art. This is the art of pinball design. It's not about having a great layout. It's not about having great art. It's actually not about having great rules. It's how the machine communicates to you all of that stuff I just mentioned. Exactly. That's what's important. And some have done it well. Some haven't done it well. Well. I'm not going to name names.
    88:02
    I think you know them. Let's just say live and learn. The wise man learns from his own mistakes. Correct. There you go. The last thing just to talk about this week, we got a mail. It did come in a little bit before last week, but it was in relation to the topic that we keep talking about, And that is music themes for pinball that aren't rock bands like Led Frickin' Zeppelin. Or Montly Crew. Or let's just go down the 80s list. Let's just, you know.
    88:39
    Pink Floyd I could do with though. But just that whole old white man rock music. It's just, it's done, except perhaps for Ledepp that's coming up. So Shane has written in, Shane's written in a number of times. In fact, I know Shane very well. And he said, not necessarily good sellers, but good things that I think would make for great machines in terms of visuals, light show, music, et cetera, not necessarily modes. And the first one he said is Kraftwerk. Now, he's saying that, I think, because he knows how much I love Kraftwerk. And I would just, oh my God, would die for Kraftwerk Machine. And their songs are very thematic, so you could build modes around some of the songs.
    89:31
    I'm not going to lie, I've never heard of Kraftwerk. So I am going to take these notes because all these I see except for the bottom two, Which I've honestly never really listened to. Okay, cool. So what's going to be great about this for me, maybe not so great for you, is just how much information I'm going to be feeding you after we've recorded about these bands. So I can introduce you at a level where you go, oh, okay, I get it. And you might not even need to explore further. But that was one. The first one was Kraftwerk. The second one was Pet Shop Boys. Now, surely you would have heard of Pet Shop Boys. No. Are they related to the Trailer Park Boys?
    90:10
    Oh, my God. Okay. Well, you know, I've got to remember I'm 100 years old and you're not. Petra Boys, they're an 80s UK band, a duo, Neil Tanner, Chris Lowe. Sure, I know their names, whatever. Okay, I've got all their albums. They haven't had huge success in the US, but they've had massive success in the UK and Australia. Yeah, I could see that as an interesting thing. Again, I don't know whether it would sell. The next one is Orbital. Now, I would now be completely okay with you not have heard of Orbital. They are an electronic band from the UK, somewhat experimental. They've had some phenomenal songs. In fact, they actually had a song on the soundtrack to Mortal Kombat. There you go. There's some sort of gaming link there for you. Okay. They actually had an album. I think it was called Altogether or something like that. And I actually remember buying that in and actually they released a surround sound version of that album and it was just phenomenal. And it also came with film clips and they've got a very interesting visual style, kind of like gorillas but not in that they're a little bit left of centre, not so much commercial, but they've had their success and they've got a really interesting visual style. So I could see that happening. That would be a kind of a band that would work well with like a TNA machine where it's all about the machine you're playing with some really cool music that happens to be there as well. No, I agree. Yeah. Beastie Boys. I love some Beastie Boys. And you know what's the wonderful part about Beastie Boys is their music is so different as they go through the ages. You could really play off of that. I know. It blows my mind that they can have a song like You've Got to Fight for the Right to Party and also have a song like Intergalactic.
    92:05
    Exactly. It's just how did they grow? They really grew into something so freaking cool. Get one of their original albums. The very first ones where it's like a punk rock band instead of what we know the Beastie Boys to be today. Okay. What was it? License to Ill? Was that what it was? Something like that? Was it their first album maybe? I think there was one before that. I can't remember. I'd have to Wikipedia it.
    92:31
    Prodigy. Have you heard of Prodigy? Yes, I have heard of Prodigy. The main singer actually just passed away a month or two ago. He did take his own life, unfortunately. Yes, unfortunately.
    92:42
    And I saw them live and it was one of the most amazing concerts I've ever been to. Really? Really. Really? Really? Okay, so here's the side note. So I've been to a lot of concerts. I would argue I've seen more concerts than I've watched films.
    92:58
    Nice. Nothing wrong with that. I'm interested in it because I don't watch a lot of films. There have been two concerts that I've been to where it felt like I was at a religious gathering, meaning where people were worshipping what was up on stage. And I mean full worship. These people on stage were gods. Really? Okay. Two concerts. I've been to a couple of those. Prodigy was one of them. The other was Iron Maiden. Really? Yeah. I can definitely see that. The audience were just transfixed by what was happening on stage like it was a religious experience. Nice.
    93:40
    You know, the thing about Prodigy is there's only two things that come to my mind when it comes to Prodigy. Wasn't Firestarter on the Matrix soundtrack? I know they did one song.
    93:53
    I think, was it Firestarter, maybe the instrumental that was on Wipeout, the PlayStation sort of futuristic racing game? Maybe. That was it. Okay. And then the second thing I remember about Prodigy is they have the most vulgar, violent music video that's ever been produced that has the most, like, when they edit stuff and they edit because of violence or they have a checklist. This has so many checks on that checklist. It's like 17 checks of things we can't be showing on TV.
    94:27
    Literally the only thing that I remember. Well done, Prodigy. Yeah. That's a thing to be known for. And that song is called Smack My... Yeah, I know that one. It's a great song.
    94:44
    So, okay. Well, actually, you know what? Next he says Wipeout. He says the video game. Yes, yes. The visual aspect from Designers Republic, audio from all that music, and make a fast layout like No Fear. That would be good. I could get into that. And the last one he says, I've gotten into wrestling a bit recently too and there's a new league called AEW. I don't know, do you follow wrestling at all? Not since I was like 13.
    95:11
    Yeah, I think, yeah, that pretty much says it all. AEW, All Elite Wrestling. Okay. It's legit. If it has little people, I want little people wrestling.
    95:28
    Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. Anyway, he said they're far more progressive and less gross than WWE. He said re-theme WWE because I don't mind the layout but put some of the music there from AEW. So there you go. Thank you, Shane. Yeah, some interesting points there. So I like a lot of those bands that he's mentioned and would totally go for it. I think really Wipeout for me just stands out because you've already got the visual style there. You've already got the energetic theme. And if, yeah, it was a fast flowy game, that would totally nail it. Oh, I totally agree. I don't see any reason why not. You know, when you and Joe were talking about this last week, I don't know why it popped into my head. But have you ever heard of Anamanaguchi? They did the soundtrack for Scott Pilgrim versus the world, the video game. And so I think the energy of this game music would fit a pinball machine. Maybe not necessarily the band themselves, but I think this is a band that really should produce some kind of music for a pinball machine. Okay. Well, I'm going to link Anna Managuchi to the show notes, guys. So you'll get to – they could be crap for all I know, but it looks interesting from what I'm seeing just very, very quickly. So if you want more of a video game vibe, just listen to the Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, the video game soundtrack.
    96:54
    And then I think Akira is the, I could be entirely wrong, but that might be the album right after that. And that would be more like your Daft Punk and stuff like that. It's still got a video game vibe, but it's more techno.
    97:11
    Okay, cool. I'm pulling up really quick. What is the album? It's going to drive me nuts. Endless Fantasy, that's the one. Yes, Endless Fantasy. Yeah, right. Okay. Okay. All right. So, oh, that was a Kickstarter. They had a 50,000 goal and they made 277,000. So, well done. Yep, they did really well for themselves. I think it was like the highest music project ever backed or something like that. Okay. All right, cool. I'm going to absolutely check them out. I said I'm going to link it so everybody else should check them out as well. And Josh, I think we've kept you long enough now because it's now past midnight. I can now see it's past midnight. So you should go to bed. I probably should because I've got to hang Christmas lights in the morning. So yeah. Awesome. It's like Thanksgiving's on Thursday. Why don't we do Christmas stuff, you know, a couple of days before? Why not? And then you've got like Black Friday or something coming up as well, don't you? Yes, the day that people, you know, you're thankful for the turkey in the morning and then you go attack people at Walmart that night for a TV.
    98:20
    I love these seasons. Oh, it just fills your heart with joy. Mate, I can't tell you how happy it is made me having a chat with you today for me, tonight, last night for you. Always good to catch up. Really appreciate you coming on. Where can people check you out? You can check us out at soundcloud.com slash loserkidpinballpodcast. That's where all of our podcasts can be found or any of your favorite podcatcher. I'm very proud that we're on Alexa now. So if you just say, hey, Google, hey, Alexa, play loserkidpinballpodcast, you'll get our most recent episode through that little guy. Yeah. If you want to contact me directly, Facebook's usually probably the best, just Josh Roop or through loserkidpinballpodcast page. Or I'm the one that checks all the Gmail. So you can do LizardKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. And how can people get one of your amazing caps? Just send us an email. We're not super officials. We don't have a web store you can go to or anything. But if you just email us, we'll get everything squared away. I'm really good to – if you message me that day, I get the hat out before the end of the day, so long as it's before 5 o'clock. Jeez. Okay. That's dedication. One thing, because you didn't get this. We gave you your hat personally, which was awesome. Correct. I don't know if anyone knows this, but a lot of the times when we send out a package, I actually write all over it. I put our logo. I put thank you, like Mike. Mike just bought a hat from us. I put thank you, Mike. I just, I don't know. It looks probably really cute. Personal message. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. I like that. So, and if you don't want me to do that because it's a Christmas present coming out, like if you're like, hey, I'm getting this for my husband or whatever, I won't write all over it. Just leave that message in the Gmail.
    100:19
    Awesome. Well, thanks again. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We will speak to you next week. Thanks, everyone. Awesome. Thank you.