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The Pinball Show Ep 157 BONUS: Current Market Analysis, Market Predictions, & Buy Low/Sell High

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·39m 7s·analyzed·Jul 16, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Market analysis of buy-low/sell-high opportunities in soft pinball secondary market.

Summary

In this Pinball Show bonus episode, hosts analyze the current pinball secondary market, identifying games holding value well (Elton John, Pulp Fiction, Labyrinth, Jaws LE) versus those declining. They discuss market stability post-inflation, propose specific buy-low opportunities (Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary LE, Cactus Canyon Remake LE, Avengers Infinity Quest, Whirlwind), and recommend sell-high candidates (Black Knight Sword of Rage LE, Munsters Premium, Batman 66 Premium, Big Lebowski, Twilight Zone). The conversation touches on code depth affecting game longevity and the impact of modern pinball's overall quality on collector behavior.

Key Claims

  • Elton John has maintained value fairly well despite initial skepticism about the theme, with over six months on market and multiple copies built.

    high confidence · Host discussing Jersey Jack games on secondary market

  • Jaws LE is currently the number one wanted game on Pinside's wanted list and holding value well.

    high confidence · Host stating market observation

  • Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary LE (500 units produced) is the preferred version over the original LE and is being undervalued at current secondary market prices.

    medium confidence · Host market analysis of Keith Allen-designed game

  • Cactus Canyon Remake LE came out at $9,250 MSRP but is currently selling in low eights on secondary market, making it underpriced.

    high confidence · Host citing CGC pricing data

  • Modern pinball game depth means players can spend years mastering rules without needing new games, potentially affecting new game sales.

    medium confidence · Hosts speculating on impact of code complexity on game longevity

  • Cactus Canyon Remake LE delayed code update may not dramatically improve the game or justify the premium asking prices.

    medium confidence · Host opinion on Lyman's involvement and CGC's delayed updates

  • Batman 66 Premium will likely be remade by Stern in the future, making current high prices vulnerable to decline.

    low confidence · Host speculation on Stern's remake strategy

  • Twilight Zone is rumored to be CGC's next remake project, which would likely cause current valuations to decline like all previous remakes.

    low confidence · Host mentioning industry rumblings about CGC's pipeline

  • Big Lebowski continues to be manufactured with no special editions, making it vulnerable to long-term value decline as new games offer comparable depth.

    medium confidence · Host market analysis of Stern's extended production run

Notable Quotes

  • “The likes of, like, I think they used Elton John. They said the irony that the last couple of JJP games have tanked fairly quickly on the secondary market. Here's Elton John that people initially kind of poo-pooed.”

    Host (Zach) @ early segment — Establishes surprising pattern of JJP games underperforming except Elton John

  • “Elton John has maintained value fairly well. And I think that's a testament to the game itself more so than anything.”

    Dennis @ early discussion — Confirms game quality as primary driver of secondary market value

  • “Are we at the bottom of the hole here when it comes to the market in pinball, do you think?”

    Host @ market analysis section — Framing key question about market bottom

  • “I still think that we're going to be – it's going to dip lower than what it's even at now. I don't think substantially... we're getting closer.”

    Dennis @ economic discussion — Predicts further but modest decline in secondary market prices

  • “This is going to be the most significant impact on game longevity since Diamond Code and clear coding games.”

    Host @ game depth discussion — Major claim about how code complexity affects collector behavior and game lifecycle

  • “It's embarrassingly late. This is not acceptable behavior from a company.”

    Host @ Cactus Canyon code discussion — Strong criticism of CGC's delayed code updates for Cactus Canyon Remake

  • “There's no way that a game could dip that low at an LE version of a Keith Elwin game.”

    Host @ Avengers buy-low analysis — Rationale for Avengers Infinity Quest LE as undervalued buy opportunity

  • “Whirlwind was kind of behind Funhaus as the elite System 11 type of games. And now that Funhaus is being remade, I can almost assure you, nobody's going to remake Whirlwind.”

    Host — Strategy for identifying games unlikely to receive remakes

Entities

Elton JohngameJaws LEgamePulp FictiongameLabyrinthgameJurassic Park 30th Anniversary LEgameCactus Canyon Remake LEgameAttack from MarsgameMedieval Madnessgame

Signals

  • $

    market_signal: Several newer games have declined substantially on secondary market within 6-12 months, including recent JJP releases, while select titles (Elton John, Jaws LE) maintain value.

    high · Host: 'the last couple of JJP games have tanked fairly quickly on the secondary market... Elton John has maintained value fairly well.'

  • $

    market_signal: Market appears to have stabilized after post-pandemic inflation peak (March-April 2022), with most decline complete though secondary market may slip slightly lower.

    medium · Dennis: 'I think things are relatively stable now. Most of the slide is done.' and 'I still think that we're going to be...it's going to dip lower than what it's even at now. I don't think substantially.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Limited edition versions command significant premiums even in soft market, with collector preference for rarer unit counts (Jurassic Park 30th at 500 units, Cactus Canyon Remake).

    high · Host: 'if you look at the numbers, they are holding very strongly on those Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary LEs' and 'Cactus Canyon remakes le's being in the low eights which is ridiculous when they came out with that game at 90 250'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Modern game code complexity and rule depth is significantly extending game lifespans, potentially reducing need for new purchases as players spend years mastering individual titles.

    medium · Host: 'this is going to be the most significant impact on game longevity since Diamond Code and clear coding games' and discussion of players not wanting to abandon games with deep progression systems

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.117

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. All right, Dennis, we've got to give these people some exclusive extras here. I guess so. I was going to bring up, like, somebody was talking to me this last week about, out of all the new games, what has been holding value? There's only a handful that we could even argue are holding value to what the price is, MSRP or the price of what you pay out of the factory. The likes of, like, I think they used Elton John. They said the irony that the last couple of JJP games have tanked fairly quickly on the secondary market. Here's Elton John that people initially kind of poo-pooed. They didn't like the theme. They've built quite a few. We know that, proof-wise. But you don't see them on the secondary market pop up. And if they do, they're not losing money. Do you think it's still too early to call on that? I don't. I think it's been out over six months, hasn't it? Yes, I believe. Yeah, at this point. We've seen the Stern LEs kind of, you know, drop pretty immediately on some of the titles. So I think it's safe to say that Elton John has maintained value fairly well. And I think that's a testament to the game itself more so than anything. But it was a slow burn nonetheless. What about Pulp Fiction?
1:43
There's a lot of SEs out that has held value very well. And I think the LEs will as well. Labyrinth, I mean, some people might say, well, there's not many.
1:54
Hundreds have shipped of Labyrinth, hundreds of games, and you don't see those for sale on the secondary market. When they do, people are trying to squeeze out more than MSRP just because they haven't shipped all of them yet. But Labyrinth, Jaws LE, that's right now probably the number one on the wanted list on Pennside, people looking for Jaws LE. So that has held its value. So those one, two, three, four games, to my knowledge, are really holding value well on the secondary market. So people who purchase those and own those currently, I don't think you did that if you're concerned and worried about your value over time.

  • The market is relatively stable now with most price slide completed, though secondary market may dip slightly lower while primary market sees greater price adjustments.

    medium confidence · Host discussing broader market stabilization post-inflation

    • @ older games buy-low

  • “I can't bring myself to tell people, get this not fun game because you like the theme. I just can't.”

    Dennis @ TMNT discussion — Philosophical disagreement on valuing theme/collectibility vs. playability

  • “The Big Lebowski, if you've got it and it doesn't do anything right now for you and you're thinking about selling it, I would sell now before they continue to make more and more and more and more.”

    Host @ sell-high section — Clear sell recommendation based on continued Stern production diluting rarity

    • Monster Bash
    game
    Avengers Infinity Questgame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Whirlwindgame
    Black Knight Sword of Rage LEgame
    Black Knight Progame
    Munsters Premiumgame
    Godzilla 70th Anniversarygame
    Batman 66game
    Big Lebowskigame
    Twilight Zonegame
    Keith Allenperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Josh Sharpperson
    Lymanperson
    Dennisperson

    product_concern: Cactus Canyon Remake LE experiencing embarrassingly late code update delays with minimal Lyman involvement, suggesting CGC lacks commitment to game improvement.

    high · Host: 'It's embarrassingly late. This is not acceptable behavior from a company. They've sold way too many of these games...I have absolutely zero confidence that's going to be the game changer'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Modern manufacturers no longer produce definitively 'bad' games; quality baseline is very high, making differentiation difficult and game rooms reluctant to replace titles.

    medium · Host: 'Nobody's making a bad game...With them being so good now, it kind of disperses the objective reviews of games too and what people can keep'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Announcement or rumor of game remakes causes immediate secondary market pressure as collectors prepare to upgrade, creating sell-high windows.

    high · Host discussing Twilight Zone: 'we've seen every single other damn game that gets remade just fall in value. And I've heard rumblings for the last couple of years about Twilight Zone'

  • $

    market_signal: Games with culturally iconic and nostalgic themes (Jaws, TMNT, Batman 66, Twilight Zone) maintain value better despite mechanical or gameplay issues.

    medium · Host: 'What is so nostalgic that it will stick over time?' discussing TMNT and noting Terminator 2 as example of enduring theme value

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Designer reputation (Keith Elwin, Keith Allen) significantly impacts game valuation, with games by acclaimed designers holding value better in soft markets.

    medium · Host: 'There's no way that a game could dip that low at an LE version of a Keith Elwin game' and 'It's a Keith Allen. It's one of the greatest games of all time'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern employing strategy of reruns (Black Knight Pro, Rush) and remakes (Godzilla 70th) to maintain revenue and market interest.

    high · Host: 'Stern is pulling out all that they can. Hell, they're pulling out reruns of Rush. They're pulling out reruns of Black Knight. And then we've just seen them take a beloved game like Godzilla and make it even sexier'

  • $

    market_signal: Continued manufacturing of games with no special editions (Big Lebowski) dilutes rarity premium and accelerates long-term value decline.

    medium · Host: 'I would sell now before they continue to make more and more and more and more...as every year goes by, that game becomes more and more dated'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Aesthetic appeal of game combinations (Munsters Premium + Godzilla 70th + Blood Red Elvira) driving buying decisions alongside gameplay quality.

    low · Host: 'Man, how sexy would it look to have a Munsters black and white next to a Godzilla 70th next to a Blood Red Kiss Elvira?'

    • 2:36
    All right. So it also brought up me thinking like, you know, in the soft market, are there still games that you should be looking out for that are good value? or games that even in the soft market, like, I think you should sell them because I think they could go lower. This is, again, the caveat being if you're concerned about the value of the games that you own and you try to maximize that. Some of you don't. I mean, it's just like me. Even if there's a game that I love, Dennis, and I see its trajectory like going down, I don't care. I just like the game. I like the game. So, with that being said, I'm going to pitch to you, Dennis and listener, some buy lows and sell highs. And you can tell me what you think, Dennis. All right. Let's start with buying low. Buy, buy, buy! In this market, buying low is kind of tricky because buying anything in the market right now, you don't want to buy something and continue to lose value. Are we at the bottom of the hole here when it comes to the market in pinball, do you think? that is really really hard to say for obvious reasons because yeah we don't know the future the big question to me to provide more context and not to sound super you know reductive or anything is we don't know whether or not we're going to see an economic downturn right inflation is coming down at some here so here's my thought so far i think things are relatively stable we started seeing this with other uh other hobbies other things where the pricing has come way down since really the uh like march april of 2022 in that regard i think we're relatively stable for the time being with a caveat if there is an economic downturn i think a lot of these will slip a lot sure yeah that goes with every yeah yeah now the some argued that the last uh downturn like the big 2008 recession pinball didn't really get too impacted by it other than obviously stern was on its last legs. Yeah, it was already down. But the used market didn't see a lot of changes. So I don't think that'll be the case this time. If there's something and people need to free up cash, they're just going to start liquidating the stuff. So that's the big concern. But I think, broadly speaking, we're not seeing a lot of signs that that's going to happen in my opinion.
    4:55
    And we're finally seeing a bend on inflation by and large. So given all of that, without getting into all the weird economic nuances that go along with that because different sectors of the market, do different things. I think things are relatively stable now. Most of the slide is done. Did you see the story? This is for America, the story. Where did I read that at? At the grocery store or something, the numbers show that this month is the first month in like three years or longer that the pricing of consecutively, month after month, the pricing of products actually went down. Yes, and that's part of the thing that I was thinking about is, yeah. That's a big marker. But like you said, maybe apples and oranges, you see what I did there, compared to this marketplace, this industry. But I agree. I actually think that we haven't seen the bottom yet. I still think that we're going to be – it's going to dip lower than what it's even at now.
    5:57
    I don't think substantially. So it's plateauing. but I don't think we're at the bottom of that dip quite yet. We're getting closer. I don't think we're at the bottom of that dip quite yet. I also believe that on the secondary market,
    6:15
    we might see those continue to go down a little bit more, but not too much more. I think mostly the primary market of frontline sales, manufacturers, the pricing that they are offering products, I think you're going to see that continue to adjust. It has to. Maybe not with Stern, but some of these other manufacturers, if they want to be competitive in this industry, changes will have to be made. And I see those as being significantly different and at a greater rate and span than that of where we're at on the secondary pinball buying market and selling. It's harder for new. for a variety of reasons because obviously with used, it just comes down to how quickly you have to let something go and then what you can list it as. And so one of the things I think we've seen, and we've seen most of it, and I agree with you, we may on some games in particular still see prices continue to fall. And part of the reason for that is people are getting more and more now used to, initially there was that kind of hedge. everyone took that the deep breath before the plunge sort of thing where it was like you mean i'm not going to be able to sell these for more than i bought them for and then took us a while to get used to that right and then now people are getting used to the idea that if a game isn't quote unquote good and by that i mean not your straight down the middle everything gets a b plus sort of evaluation but a true evaluation of like comparably like in the world where John Wick and Venom are seen as not good games. We've not rated them. It's just like, I'm just saying, they're going to, people are like, you know what, this game is now basically worth whatever I can quickly get out of it. And more and more people are doing that. And so there's been this acceptance that, you know what, if a game is quote unquote bad, I might lose thousands on it. And I just have to accept that because now people are like, nope, I ain't. There's no pressure to buy something just to buy something anymore. Well, and we never talk about this either. and not that I should listen even with the segment, but market analysis here.
    8:26
    What we never talk about, it just popped into my head, so let me workshop it here. The values of games now with so many different titles coming out, we have talked about them not really making bad games anymore, especially like a Stern. Nobody's making a bad game. They're making games that are superior than most every game that's ever been made in pinball, period, nowadays, because it's just innovation and what people want now is hobbyists and game players rather than just vending machine companies back in the 80s and 90s. But with them being so good now, it kind of disperses the objective reviews of games too and what people can keep. So when we talk about, well, people are running out of room, I don't think that was as big of an issue prior to 2012 because there was good games and the difference between a good game and a bad game was substantial. Now, there are so many good games out that game rooms, it's tougher to decide what's going to leave because it's like, well, that's a good game still. I still don't beat that. It might not be my favorite game, but like it's still a good game. Whereas before you like yeah but it millionaire I mean it fine It gone I think there might be something there Yes I say it more the depth with the modern games the depth of the code Good point. As you noted, the ability to win it, so to speak, that's the big change up. And for me, I would say this is the most significant impact on game longevity since Diamond Code and clear coding games. So games just, you know, that was a, I think Lawler's weighed in on this a few times where it's like, you know what? Clear coding may have been a mistake on the industry's part because operators just didn't have this pressure to get rid of a game for a physical reason because the art was wearing off anymore. They could just keep routing it and maybe move it to a slower location and make money. So what about if a game's too deep, though? Maybe people don't need to buy new games because they haven't beat the one that. Exactly. And unlike in, say, video games, which are a lot cheaper to go ahead and get new ones, and they also fall in price a lot faster and at significant percentages more for a quote-unquote new in-box video game, the gameplay of pinball is always the gameplay of pinball. So it's not like you're changing up genres. It's always pinball. So as your lineup fills, it's like, is it really going to be different enough to care? And that's where they're weighing. I mean, obviously there are differences. The programmers and rules makers are making changes between all these games. But how different is like fighting villains in John Wick versus however other modes work? That's a good point. But they leaned into it more with going insider connected with Stern. Whereas I think the argument can be made that you're going to have to differentiate the code sets and the rules so much more. if you're wanting to fill up more game rooms rather than that one game that you keep adding code to or insider-connected badges to, that somebody would be like, yeah, but I've got so many of the achievements on this, I don't want to get rid of this game. Like, yeah, there might be something there.
    11:50
    Wow. Do we uncover something? I don't know. I don't either. Let's talk about buying low and selling high, speaking of marketplace. So buying low. Can something still be bought low? I think so. If you've looked at the numbers on Jurassic Park 30th anniversary, remember, that's an LE. That's before Stern said, well, they're going to be premium, so we'll make as many as we want, but we won't. We'll still limit them to what we think will still drive the market. But only 500 produced of the Jurassic Park 30th anniversary, And it's not even argued at this point that that is the nicer version than the alternate LE, the original LE. So it is the preferred piece. And if you look at the numbers, they are holding very strongly on those Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary LEs. So my buy low now would be, as we're in this market dip, I would say buying something like that, if you like that game, is a smart buy. Buy, buy, buy! Especially if you can, with some of these recent releases like the 70th anniversary of Godzilla, that's going to get people wanting to move some games around so they can get the newest and greatest. You've got the next JJP game coming out. If we see another CGC game at some point. All these new releases. Hit somebody up that's got a Jurassic Park 30th that you maybe can get even lower. I think that's a good buy low because that thing, it's a Keith Allen. It's one of the greatest games of all time. and when you look at Jurassic Park 30th and then you look at like Iron Maiden LE it's too late now you can't buy low on an Iron Maiden LE that is still holding $13,000-$14,000 on the secondary market there's no reason that Jurassic Park not only should do the same thing but maybe even higher up so I would buy low on Jurassic Park 30th anniversary LE what do you think Dennis?
    13:41
    Yeah it does it makes sense given the pricing on it again and I imagine a lot of these may very well end up being LEs, but that's a part of the equation, I guess, to consider. You have to really want it, I suppose. Yes, that's true. So if you really want the LE, yeah, it's an opportunity to buy it. But if you're just into the gameplay aspect, getting a premium would probably still just be more affordable. Oh, yes, absolutely. So I guess, just I guess, think about it. It's kind of like if you're a Johnny-come-lately trying to add things to the collection and you want LEs, yeah, I think JP30th is probably one to go ahead and check out. Yep, I agree. And it's a good game. Fantastic game. Also, by low, we talked about this on the regular show, Cactus Canyon Remake LE. Buy, buy, buy! Now, here's why I say buy low on this. It is still, and it's a CGC remake. It's a CGC remake LE. Those things are held in the highest echelon in this industry and within a hobbyist. They just are, so much so that Attack from Mars, Medieval Madness, and Monster Bash, the remake LE versions are preferred over the originals pretty much universally. There's no reason that Cactus Canyon is not going to be any different. The argument being, well, nobody had the original Cactus Canyon. People are going to collect those like they collect Sterns, and they do. They already do. and if they come out with that enhanced code set i can guarantee you they're not going to get lower after they announce that and with these cactus canyon remakes le's being in the low eights which is ridiculous when they came out with that game at 90 250 it's underpriced compared to the rest of the market so absolutely buy low if you can get a cactus canyon le that's pretty mint condition in the upper sevens, I think that is a strong buy low. Buy, buy, buy! You raise some good points, and I do agree. The point you made in particular about CGC, their pricing versus the other pinball manufacturers has always been, I'm not going to say too low. I'm going to say they've priced more fair than everyone else, because I'm consumer-centric, not distributor-centric. However, I still feel fundamentally this is not a strong title and not one I would go for as an LE. I think almost anyone who's going after the CGC collection has already bought this.
    16:12
    So someone coming in here, yeah, they could get an LE, but they're not going to... You're not going to be able to complete your collection of CGC LEs with a buy low model. It only works for Cactus because Cactus isn't good. So I would not do this game. But I do agree that the price is pretty low in it. I think this one still could slide lower, though.
    16:33
    As more and more people wait, as that code, new updated enhanced code, does not come out. And then when it comes out and people realize it didn't dramatically change the game, I think it's going to, I'm not going to say it's going to tank lower, but I think it has the potential to slip even further. The last piece that Lyman worked on. This is an L, but it's already been admitted. He basically, other than a few outlines, didn't have anything ready for it. He did. I can say that. I don't think people are really going to accept this as his final true effort, just like people aren't going to say Barry O's barbecue is Barry Osler's real last game. I can say that from experience because I talked to the man about it. That's what sets itself apart. If it was his code, it would be out by now.
    17:17
    If he was mostly there with it, if it was mostly done, it would have been finished and put out by now, and it's not there. Would you rather have Lyman's mind behind creating rules, Or would you rather have – I'm not going to say a certain name of a – any other coder just simply give Lyman the rules and he just one and zeros it? I would rather have his vision. Obviously the former. This is not – the delays have – what's going on with the delays I don't think is related to Lyman's passing.
    17:54
    I agree. Yes, I agree. But what I do think is if the game's rules were mostly developed, even CGC would have acted out by now.
    18:03
    So there are notes. There are some concepts. I think you're putting them on a pedestal. No, you're downplaying it. We so desperately want it to be on a pedestal, but it's never going to be, in my view. I think this... CGC doesn't hype up anything. Josh Sharp doesn't hype up. They are very understated companies and brands. And so was Lyman. So I don't know. To me, this isn't a question about understating all of that. I don't think it's going to be extreme by any means. It's already, and this is going to be a little harsh, but I guess our Patreon listeners can accept that. They can take it. It's embarrassingly late. This is not acceptable behavior from a company. They've sold way too many of these games, which already had a lot of delays for this not to be out yet. Embarrassingly late. They just said, hold my beer. this is our middle name baby they everything they do about this tells me they do not care about this game they do not care about this code they've made no serious effort to get it done and i have absolutely zero confidence that's going to be the game changer that perhaps they thought it would have been and i don't think it was ever meant so you think it's more of a desire than an organizational thing or i think i think you're putting way too much on that this is going to have me some some major game changer to it just basically a complete rule set that because Lyman was involved and I don think he spent enough time on it to really make it his This is going to be Josh Sharp code with some ideas from Lyman and Josh might have great that in and of itself might be great. This game, no one wants Western themes. No one cares about this game. This is not a game to get excited about. We're already spending too much time on this game. Yes, it's very low priced. I think it has the potential as an LE to slip even further. It's just not special. I'm going to bunch this next buy low into a duo.
    20:01
    And that is buy low on Avengers Infinity Quest Ellie and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Ellie. Buy, buy, buy! And these are a little different than the other ones in the reason I put them in this category. It's because with the dip that we're seeing, these two games offer so much in a game for what they're dropping to. It's pretty ridiculous. Like in Avengers right now, guys, this is a Keith Elwin game. Arguably one of his greatest shooters. It's a great game. It lacks the theming.
    20:38
    That's pretty much why. And the rules are a little convoluted in that they can be a little confusing. But it's still one of the greatest games out there. And I've seen LEs, again, dip in like the low eights.
    20:54
    There's no way. No way that a game could dip that low at an LE version of a Keith Elwin game. So just like Iron Maiden and everything else, buying low now makes sense. Same with Turtles. You have to look at the tail on these and the popularity of these. It's not only designer and stuff and rules. It's also the theme.
    21:19
    What are evergreen themes? What is so nostalgic that it will stick over time? and the visual illustrative beauty of zombie yeti's teenage mutant ninja turtles that is an iconic theme that will always stay strong it just it got killed in the last two years since it came out because of difficulty shooting it um so that killed it but it's a great game that and the the Zombie Eddie Beauty of Avengers Infinity Quest. Keith Elwin. Those are both buy lows. If you're wanting LEs and you're wanting the nicest version of something that gives you the most of what you're getting in a little slump of a market right now, those two are good examples.
    22:06
    And then my other buy low was, I try to look back and say, are there any older games that, because they've been out so long that they've market corrected themselves over decades, But I would say Whirlwind. Buy, buy, buy! Whirlwind was kind of behind Funhaus as the elite System 11 type of games. And now that Funhaus is being remade, I can almost assure you, nobody's going to remake Whirlwind. I really do not see that happening.
    22:36
    So, and some of the pricing on these Whirlwinds, because the market is in a dip, I've seen fully restored beautiful Whirlwinds. But like $6,000, Dennis, you can't build a brand new game for that, much less a fully restored example of that. And for those that are looking at this type of gameplay, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything better as a game and nostalgic theming and everything that is pinball than Whirlwind. So I would buy low on restored Whirlwind. Buy, buy, buy! I'll loosely agree. I think you're right about that. It's probably a buy low on restored whirlwinds, and it's probably a buy low for Avengers Ellie. Turtles, I'm on the fence about. You may be right. I figured you would be on the turtles. Well, it has mechanical issues, so there's a premium with the glider mech, and I don't feel like there's ever been a confirmation that's been truly resolved. And unlike you, I don't think it's a fun game. So I would say if you're going to get a Turtles, get a Pro and don't go anywhere near this LE. For gameplay, I don't argue. I have zero confidence that Turtles actually goes up in value. So it may be a buy low, sell low. You might just be stuck with this never moving. Not that you were proposing to get these for aspiration or investment purposes. But I'm not sure because, again, you're right. The theming is really good. There's a lot of depth to the rules. I just think the layout is really good. Do you see what games stick over time? They're those nostalgic Terminator 2. Sure, sure. These things are always going to be hot properties. And Turtles is a huge hot property. I mean, hell, we've seen even the Data East version of Turtles hold value better than its counterparts because of it. But I can't bring myself to tell people, get this not fun game because you like the theme. I just can't. I can't do it. I did love the game. To me, the purpose of collecting pinball is to enjoy them and not just to enjoy looking at them. There's better games out there, but yeah. All right, let's transition over to sell high. Sell, sell, sell! In the market right now, it is very wise, especially if you're trying to get some new stuff in and out. You've got to know when to sell.
    24:51
    For some of you, some of these games in general in the industry right now, it's too late. You already missed your window, and every day that ticks by, it's going to keep going down. So I'm not saying these are at the apex of what they're worth. No, no, no. Some of these, we might have slipped past that, but I think they still have room to go down at an increasing rate. But the potential is higher, that is. So sell high. For example, Black Knight Sword of Rage LE. Sell, sell, sell! I think that if you owned that, it's already been pretty low. But right now, you got people paying attention to Black Knight with their rerun of the pro model. and that premium le it's not going to find fans in time it is just not not a good game compared to the pro so if you do have a premium le tells me you've probably played enough of it to know what it is now hit while the iron's hot people are talking about black knight again because they're never going to talk about it ever again after this little pro run so sell high on that Sword of Rage LE and try to say, you know, you're talking about Black Knight. Look at this LE version. Sell high on that. What do you think, Dennis? Yeah. I would get rid of it. Yes. Yeah. Now. Sell it now. It's the premium or the worst version of the game. Yes. Undoubtedly. Same premise goes. Selling high on Munster's premium black and white. Sell, sell, sell. Oh, they're well past the apex on that. Well past it. But because this is like your last stance here, because Godzilla 70th come out, you're going to have a lot of collectors. Hell, I even thought about it. Man, how sexy would it look to have a Munsters black and white next to a Godzilla 70th next to a Blood Red Kiss Elvira? And I still think the first person that has that and takes a picture like that's going to be awesome looking. Oh, they're going to get tens of likes. But it's just going to be, that would be cool to walk up and see those three together.
    26:53
    But that doesn't make Munster's Premium a good game. So try to sell it as that. Hey, as you're buying your Godzilla 70th high-end collector, now's your chance to pick up one of these Munster's Premium, which to this date, still very difficult to get at a good price. So they still hold a hell of a lot higher price premium-wise than the other Stern premiums. It's still going for $10,000 to $12,000. That's absurd. So sell high while you can on Munster's premium. Sell, sell, sell. Over time, hell, maybe it maintains its value and goes up, but I don't think so. I think you get rid of it now.
    27:32
    I agree with you. I would also sell high on Bandband 66 premium and LE version. Sell, sell, sell. Now, keep in mind, a lot of people say, wait a minute, these are already holding their value better than most every other Stern, Zach. And I'm with you there. And I don't think it's going to drastically change. But think about this scenario. And Stern is pulling out all that they can. Hell, they're pulling out reruns of Rush. They're pulling out reruns of Black Knight. And then we've just seen them take a beloved game like Godzilla and make it even sexier and call it a premium?
    28:11
    I'm not saying they're going to do something like that for Batman 66. But I'm saying there's a lot of people That would love to buy a Batman 66 So I'm just saying I would sell high Especially on the premium While you can If you're not playing as much The LE people are like well it's got that topper though And they're never going to remake that topper I'm not saying they will But the technology that we have nowadays And people repro and stuff I would second guess your unobtainium topper talk there.
    28:49
    Batman 66, I think Stern will remake that again, and I think it'll sell well once again, and I don't think they would shy away from creating an Ellie without a mirror back glass and calling it a premium. That's all I'm saying.
    29:07
    It's so hard to know for me on if this is a likely game to actually get remade. I'm pretty skeptical Giving you the benefit of the doubt on the assumption I agree with you to go ahead and sell high on the premium i do not agree on the le i do not think the le is going to go down in value the sle may not but i think even the regular i know they didn't make many i know i i think it's i think it's relatively safe adam west doing the the voice work in it and such uh that it's just i just don't think it's going to be easy to get i just don't think they're going to get i just don't think they're going to... Because they said they're never going to remake L.E. So I just don't think that factor comes into play for Batman. And... Yeah. Okay. I think they're going to... It was the first of the Star and Spike 2s revealed. Remember the Catwoman?
    29:56
    Yeah. When they came out with the Catwoman, that was too soon, though. No one cared. There were still... Dealers still had premiums and they didn't move premiums. Like, it was still too soon. Look, there's a lot... They haven't made that for a while. I don't... There's a lot about Batman 66 that I don't care for. But personally, I wouldn't be into it. So I'm trying not to let my bias that Batman 66 plays way too long and I'm not into the theme and all the rest of it. That's me as a dealer because I don't like that game. But as a dealer, I'm like, oh, yeah. I think you may be right on the premium, but I think the LE is okay. I don't. I had a hard time with the LE. I'm like, I would sell high on the big Lebowski, though. Sell, sell, sell. I would. They continue to make that damn game, and they don't make any special editions of it or anything. My point is, if they're still on the secondary market going for about what they are new, that is not going to stay. I assure you, as every year goes by, that game becomes more and more dated. No. The big Lebowski will start falling down. And when it does, I think it's just going to start cruising down to a, there's nothing special about it. Right now, it feels like, oh, it's the one-off game. this company took so long to make and it's got more in it than every other. Well, guess what? New games come out and they have awesome shit in them too. So now, the Big Lebowski, if you've got it and it doesn't do anything right now for you and you're thinking about selling it, I would sell now before they continue to make more and more and more and more. I think you're spot on on this one. Sell, sell, sell. What about Twilight Zone? I think you sell high on that too because rumblings are CGC. If their next remake, who knows when that's going to be. but the rumblings of Twilight Zone. So, yeah, we've seen every single other damn game that gets remade just fall in value. And I've heard rumblings for the last couple of years about Twilight Zone too. So if you're sitting on Twilight Zone and you're wanting to maximize, I'd sell. I'd sell high on that thing.
    32:02
    I think you're right if your assumption is right. And I've been hearing about the Twilight Zone remake for a long time as well, but I'm not sure that it's actually – there may have been an intent to have it happen. I'm not sure that intent exists anymore.
    32:16
    And obviously, I have to maybe eat some Croto, suck on some Croto if I'm wrong because then I agree. If they do a remake, especially if it's a CGC remake, then OG Twilight Zones are going to fall in value. yeah however i'm i'm gonna factor a couple things in on why i think it's okay at least for the time being that you can hold on this and it might actually even go up a little bit over because i think it's going to be years before we see a twilight zone i still remember you remember in virtual pinball there is a a piece of uh programming called the pinball arcade do you remember pinball arcade yeah i do okay so they would do all these old uh wms games in particular and they had to do little kickstarters for some of them, like Terminator 2, because they had to get the permission to have Schwarzenegger, so they need extra money to be able to... Okay. So where I'm going with this is I'm trying to recall if Twilight Zone was one of those that was a big struggle for them. I don't know if they were able to get Rod Serling. I don't know if CGC can secure everything it needs. Here's what I will say, though.
    33:26
    This is Patreon, people. Yeah, you know. I'm going to say this. I'm going to give you guys this nugget.
    33:33
    The family of Rod Serling, that IP can be had. I'm sure. That's not a barrier. It is not a barrier. I know that. There's all of them that talk about all these remakes other than Monster Bash. And remember how long it took to get Monster Bash out. And that was like Universal was pretty loose with letting people have their license. It was like, why has there been no Indiana Jones remake? and why is there no Addams Family remake? And if you're going to do a remake at this point, CGC, is Twilight Zone really the right answer to turn to? I still think it is. Five years ago, I think you're right. Five years ago when people were still like, toys, drool, drool, drool, toys. But now people just know that these old 90s games aren't as good. And I just don't think Twilight Zone is strong. But it's quintessential pinball history. Yeah, but it was a sucky game when it first came out. It only became a collector darling. We could say the same thing about Adam's Family, but I still think that is a knockout hit, too. Adam's Family was a touchstone. That's nostalgia because of the call-outs and all the rest of it. Twilight Zone, when it came out, like, Adam's Family made bank in the arcades when it came out. Twilight Zone was a dog. True, true. No one liked it until collectors were like, hey, I can get this cool game for $2,000. You know what I think is crazy, Dennis? I remember, I've not been in this hobby that long, what, nine years? Eight, nine years. But when I got into the hobby, Twilight Zone could still be had for not that much. When I got into the hobby, you could still get a Twilight Zone for like $4,500 to $5,000. Twilight Zone, in my opinion, is a mistake for reasons not related to the license. Anyone who's ever owned one can tell you. They are a nightmare to keep running. They break all the time. I have no confidence that CGC's is going to hold up significantly better on some of the toy mechanics it's a wide body there are reasons why I wouldn't want it it's just not I think the ship I think if CGC is smart from a business perspective this is not a remake they go after there are better remakes to do first easier remakes to do first it would be probably easily a top five choice for me not for me personally but as a business Right, right, right. I think it would be better to go for Addams Family. I think, honestly, if they're going to go for a licensed remake, Addams Family is the right, the objectively right answer. But doing Star Trek Next Gen or Indiana Jones is better than Twilight Zone. Indiana Jones, yeah, but not Star Trek. No, no, no, no. People love them. They love to fire them little cannons. I like Star Trek Next Gen better than I do Twilight Zone, but not from a remake standpoint. So Twilight Zone, I think, sell high. And that goes right along. People want Shadow. I can't remake that one now. That's like right there with – I think Whitewater is a better choice than Shadow. After the Russ decision and Alec Baldwin is okay, I think we can do Shadow.
    36:28
    Oh, geez. It's not a timely – okay. What about Selling Highs? This is my last one. Fun House. Sell, sell, sell. We've kind of talked about that. That's the whole Twilight Zone thing. Isn't it too late now? I mean, yeah, right. It's not the apex. It's not too late. They have not really started shipping these things. It's half too late. If you want out of your funhouse, get out of it right now. Yes, that's what I'm saying. It may not be – yes, get out. You're not doing as well as you did a year ago if you were to get out, but now's the time. A lot of people are like, no, I'm holding out because it's built a lot better. I don't want this job. I'm telling you, I've got one of the first LEs, and if any of them are going to be questionable, like quality, it would be one of these. and guys i mean i'm it's it's not bad i don't think that people are going to have problems with these like that's it guess what it shoots and plays just like a funhouse it really does so and regardless it's still going to affect the marketplace significantly because they're going to make a ton of these damn things sell high on funhouse before it's even more too late sell sell self yes okay that's but you know what i'm gonna say i think that was maybe our best patreon episode that that was really good i don't think it was what not top three i don't know are you calling this the twilight zone of our patronage content i just i don't know i just i feel like i started strong when we really explored the market. That was expertise. Then it was just like market trends 2.0. I kind of think it was weaker. Oh, Jesus.
    38:12
    I'm sure they'll like it, though. No, I don't want to hear it. This is going to draw some people. This is what sets us apart right here. It's experience and knowledge, my friend. Everyone else, all they can talk about is black and white Godzillas. Oh, my God. I felt bad that we talked about it. I know. What can you do? Well, we have to give them the actual good takes on it. You guys can turn this off, I guess. Yeah, hit the stop button. Upgrade to the Nordman level so you can hang out with us on the happy hour. It's the kind of discussion we have. Yeah, I'll show you. Look.
    38:48
    But it's me bourboned up, too. We talk about plastic ramps. And saying too much of what I shouldn't be saying.
    38:54
    Sometimes alcohol is involved and loose lips sink ships. That's right. I'm just still thinking of that bumblebee spinning that rod She can't slow down