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Just Another Pinball Podcast Ep 35: Catching Up With George Gomez To End 2022

The Pinball Network·video·1h 32m·analyzed·Dec 26, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

George Gomez clarifies Stern leadership transition and Bond pinball design decisions in end-of-year podcast.

Summary

George Gomez, Chief Creative Officer at Stern Pinball, discusses leadership transitions at Stern with Seth Davis becoming CEO while Gary Stern moves to chairman role. Gomez clarifies the planned succession strategy, leadership team structure, and his own role staying as CCO. The interview covers James Bond pinball design philosophy, three-flipper architecture, playfield tuning decisions (foam pad fix for scoop), and Spike system modularity for managing hardware constraints.

Key Claims

  • Seth Davis has been President of Stern for approximately one year at time of interview (December 2022)

    high confidence · George Gomez explicitly states Seth has been president for about a year and was always planned to transition to CEO role

  • Stern is moving to a new, larger building

    high confidence · George mentions 'preparing for the big move to our new building' and discusses preparing space for manufacturing and production

  • James Bond pinball uses a three-flipper layout similar to Corvette (Gomez's first game)

    high confidence · George explicitly discusses three-flipper design for Bond and references Corvette as his first three-flipper game

  • Bond's pop bumpers are mechanically tied together (not independent) due to node board driver constraints

    high confidence · George explains the Spike system modularity and node board driver limitations forcing the design choice for pop bumpers

  • James Bond pinball has a foam pad on the side rail of one scoop that prevents ball rejection issues

    high confidence · George specifically warns: 'Do not remove that foam pad or you will live in that scoop' and explains it was added to fix mechanical issues

  • More James Bond video content/code drops planned before Christmas 2022

    medium confidence · George states 'we're going to see one here in the next couple of days. Right before Christmas, we're trying to give you another drop on Bond'

Notable Quotes

  • “There's nothing to be concerned about. The guy came here a year ago... he's clearly been a great fit with the exec team and the organization.”

    George Gomez @ ~5:30 — Gomez directly addresses community concerns about Seth Davis becoming CEO, emphasizing continuity and fit

  • “I'm the chief creative officer. I don't want to be anything else. I love my job... my joy is in guiding those guys to make amazing stuff.”

    George Gomez @ ~8:00 — Clarifies Gomez's role and rejects speculation about him becoming president

  • “Do not remove that foam pad or you will live in that scoop.”

    George Gomez @ ~45:00 — Urgent technical warning about a critical design fix on Bond that wasn't visible in promo materials

  • “The way the game feels is king, and everything else is after that.”

    George Gomez @ ~42:00 — Core design philosophy statement explaining prioritization in pinball development

  • “I really do try to reinvent myself every time. Some guys think all my games are the same, but I really do try.”

    George Gomez @ ~23:00 — Responds to criticism about design repetition, defends creative diversity across games

  • “The Corvette was actually easier to shoot because it was my first game, and the shot entrances were enormous. I've got a lot more experience now.”

    George Gomez @ ~24:30 — Reflects on design evolution between first three-flipper game (Corvette) and Bond

  • “I challenge anybody to tell me that those pop bumpers work any worse than any other pop bumper array I've ever done.”

    George Gomez @ ~50:30 — Defends design choice of tied pop bumpers as functionally equivalent despite hardware constraints

  • “Gary cares a lot about how sustainable this business is. He wants this business to outlive him... to be a staple of life.”

    George Gomez — Explains Gary Stern's motivation for succession planning and long-term business sustainability

Entities

George GomezpersonSeth DavispersonGary SternpersonStern PinballcompanyJames BondgameJoepersonRaymond Davidsonperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern Pinball expanding to new, larger building; company growth and increased production capacity

    high · George mentions 'preparing for the big move to our new building' as major ongoing project

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Online speculation about George Gomez potentially becoming President; community concerns about Seth Davis as outsider leading company

    medium · George addresses: 'I saw some speculation, some crazy guys talking about me being president' and discusses community concern about Davis: 'for all the people that are like, you know, concerned, there's nothing to be concerned about'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Upper flipper shots on Bond positioned as advanced player skill distinguishing novice from pro play; accessibility through multi-ball tied to easier rocket shot

    medium · George explains rocket is 'give-dimmies for the average guy' while upper flipper shots are 'definitely an advanced player skill'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Community criticism of Bond pop bumpers tied together and promo materials showing foam pad added later; perception Stern 'cheaping out'

    medium · George responds: 'some people read into that and they're like, oh, Stern's cheaping out' and acknowledges foam pad wasn't in promotional photos but was necessary fix

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Gomez responds to perception all his games are similar by emphasizing reinvention efforts; defends three-flipper Bond as departure

    medium · George states: 'some guys think all my games are the same, but I really do try to reinvent myself every time' and chose Bond's three-flipper specifically

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.276

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Just Another Pinball Podcast. pinball channel, we have a video of this podcast. I'm hoping that'll do better from a longevity standpoint and people will be able to find this podcast a little easier. Otherwise, if you're listening in your car, enjoy it. And the second big change is this is now sponsored. It's sponsored by Flippin' Out Pinball. So appreciate Zach and Nicole for letting me borrow games to stream and to talk about on podcasts, including the most recent game that I'm borrowing, which is James Bond. So I'm very excited to, if I'm going to go big, if I'm going to start doing a video podcast, who better to get on video than the man himself, George Gomez is back. I interviewed him a few podcasts ago, a few episodes ago, but he's here today. So, George, thank you so much for setting aside some of your time to do this with me. Hey, Joe, it's great to see you again. And, you know, we had a lot of fun last time talking about that pool. Oh, yeah.
1:22
And, you know, we talk about it where you want today. And folks at home, what you're seeing, this is my office in the development studio at Stern Pinball. So this entire disaster, I'm sure you guys are going to do a NASA satellite image, like NSA satellite image analysis to see what kind of secrets you can glean from the mess that my office is. No, it looks fantastic. My toolbox right behind me, you know. Oh, yeah. I'm seeing a box of Pop-Tarts, so, you know. Yeah, yeah, a box of Pop-Tarts. You know, it's like, you know, hey, you know, I find myself here at all kinds of hours of the day and night. Oh, I was just assuming the next licensed game was going to be, you know, breakfast themed or something. No, that's awesome. Well, George, there's – oh, go ahead. No, it was a big, giant Deadpool. You see him? It was courtesy of Mr. Zombie Yeti.
2:30
@ ~6:00
Deadpoolgame
Zombie Yetiperson
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Michael O'Donnellperson
Kevin Schectelperson
John Vizcagaperson
Brianperson
Dwightperson
Mark Buenaperson
Mark Guidarelliperson
Javierperson
Chuck Ernstperson
Northern Precision Plasticscompany
Steve Ritchieperson
Kevin Grilloperson
Shelly Sachsperson
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Gomez deliberately balances novice accessibility with expert difficulty on Bond; three-flipper design revisited for first time since Corvette; emphasis on game feel over aesthetics

    high · George states: 'I wanted a fair distinction between something that a novice can do and something that a pro can do' and 'The way the game feels is king, and everything else is after that'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Seth Davis transitioning from President to CEO role; Gary Stern moving to Chairman; Michael O'Donnell retiring as CFO with new CFO starting January 2023; Shelly Sachs retiring

    high · George explicitly details leadership changes: 'Seth...would move into the CEO role and that Mr. Stern would move into the chairmanship' and 'Michael himself has said, okay, I'm ready to chill out. He's retiring'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Foam pad solution added to Bond scoop after initial design issues; not visible in promotional materials but critical to prevent ball rejection

    high · George warns: 'Do not remove that foam pad or you will live in that scoop' and explains it fixed a major mechanical problem discovered during development

  • ?

    product_strategy: James Bond pinball has additional video content and code drops planned; ongoing approvals process for video content extending development timeline

    medium · George states: 'we're going to see one here in the next couple of days. Right before Christmas, we're trying to give you another drop on Bond' and 'we have so much video content and getting approvals is a little bit more complicated'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Spike node board driver limitations forcing design compromises; pop bumpers tied together due to insufficient driver resources rather than design choice

    high · George explains node board constraints: 'When you run out of drivers and you have to spend the money for an additional node, you have to make a choice what's it worth to you'

    • He gave it to me when we finished the game. That's awesome. Yeah, and as you can see behind me, I have my Deadpool premium. Last time we talked, I had a Deadpool Pro, and I asked, like, hey, how do you talk me into the premium? And to be honest, all it took was I went to a bar downtown, and I played the premium, and I hit the left orbit one time. Yeah, that's right. That drop-down ramp, I was like, I'll get them in. That's the magic right there. Yeah, it's really – it's a great game. But, well, we'll just – I don't know. We'll just dive on in. First off, you – Stern Pinball just dropped some news this morning. Yeah. I mean, this wasn't initially in my notes by any means. Right, right. But if you want to talk about that, it looks like there's some change in leadership. And if you want to talk about it or clarify – Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, right. So I think that what people – I get the impression from some of the stuff I've seen online that people don't realize that Seth Davis has been the president of the company for a year now. So there's all these conversations about what's going to change. Well, honestly, Seth has been the president for a year and whatever, you know, you haven't seen any, like, major radical, you know, turn the world upside down changes. And I don't anticipate that you're going to see those. So, I mean, look, our company is growing, and our company is no surprise, and we're doing great. And Mr. Stern is, you know, I'm 67, he's 77, and the executive team of the company,
    4:05
    I think people sometimes don't realize that there's a whole team of us. It's not just me and Gary running the show. So, you know, Seth, the president, John Vizcaga runs the sales and marketing group. Kevin Schectel runs manufacturing.
    4:22
    Michael O'Donnell has been the chief financial officer. So that team is the team of people that run the company. So every one of us owns a piece of the business, right? I own product development. And so whenever you see, you know, new games, new concepts relative to whatever, accessories, parts, insider connected, right? All that stuff comes from me and my team.
    4:49
    Somebody's got to make it. That's Kevin's job. Somebody's got to sell it. That's John's job. And somebody's got to coordinate the efforts and lay out the strategic vision of the company. And the strategic vision of the company is typically the role of the CEO. In our case, we've had Mr. Peterson and Mr. Stern who own the company.
    5:19
    And by the way, Gary's moving into the chairman's role. It doesn't mean that he's leaving or retiring. We would all love to see him snowboard more, spend more time with his motorcycles, spend more time chilling out because he's earned it and he's 77 years old. But it just means that some of the day-to-day stuff he's not going to worry about. He's going to, you know, he's got sets of very capable guy. Okay. You know, Wharton MBA, spent a lot of time at Disney, both on the game side. He's a lifelong gamer. I'll tell you this, for all the people that are like, you know, concerned, there's nothing to be concerned about. The guy came here a year ago. We did a search for the position. we always knew when we were searching for the position that at some point in time, if the person we selected would work out, in other words, he was a good fit with the executive team, he had our same value set in terms of who we want to be and all of those things, that he would move into the CEO role and that Mr. Stern would move into the chairmanship. And so I think that that's all that's happened. Seth clearly has been a great fit in terms of the exec team and the organization. And that's why we've done it pretty much as planned, really.
    6:47
    And so over the course of the year, what's been happening is that Gary has been spending a lot of time with Seth. Actually, all of us have to sort of educate him about our company and our business. So he has learned the pinball business in this past year from all of our different perspectives. And so he under he's got a pretty clear vision of everything that all of us do to make this thing work and happen.
    7:14
    And and so, you know, him and Gary have been, you know, connected together for the past year. If if Gary gets an email, Seth gets the same email. If Gary's in the meeting, Seth is in the same meeting. If there's a phone conversation, they're both on it. So, you know, it's not any kind of, I mean, there's honestly, guys, there's no drama. This is all good. This is all like essentially, you know, an amazing part of our growing business.
    7:49
    And sort of trying to, you know, you guys don't know this about Gary, But Gary cares a lot about how sustainable this business is. He wants this business to outlive him. He wants the business to outlive all of us, really. He wants the business to be a staple of, you know, of life. And so part of creating a succession plan is saying, hey, I need some younger guys with new energy, new vision, new skill to take the company to the next level. And that's what this is about. Michael O'Donnell, the CFO, chief financial officer, has been with the company almost from its beginnings in the Data East days. has been amazing at managing the financial ups and downs of the business as it grew. And Michael himself has said, okay, I'm ready to chill out. He's retiring, but he's not disappearing. He's going to remain a consultant to the company to onboard the new CFO. The new CFO is someone that we just hired. He starts in January. and he's going to start going through that same process of learning the business so Michael can take a step back.
    9:23
    Shelly Sachs is probably the oldest employee of the company, has performed a variety of different roles over the years and very close to a lot of us. And Shelly has said, hey, guys, I'm going to retire. And so Shelly's retiring. So, I mean, really that's the press release you saw today. I saw some speculation, some crazy guys talking about me being president. I was like, fellas, you don't want me to be president. You want me exactly where I am. I'm the chief creative officer. I don't want to be anything else. I love my job. I love what I do.
    10:04
    You know, I love the studio I've built, and I have, you know, as you know, an incredibly talented staff. my joy is in guiding those guys to, to make amazing stuff, to, to be great in, in, in, in, you know, in their own right. And, uh, and every once in a while, somebody lets me design a game. And so, you know, uh, so, and then, you know, you got Deadpool and, and you, and you got, you got Bond. It's a really hard thing to do. Don't get too used to it. Yeah. But the reality is that – so I hope that fills up some of it. No, that's great. It's always great. I mean, that's why everybody loves hearing you on podcasts because it's just great to hear directly from the source. You know, let's clarify these things. Yeah. But speaking of your staff, just real quick, who is your least favorite employee and why is it Raymond Davidson? That's just – if you just want to answer that outright, that would be great. Oh, boy. Come on. How do you guys let the pick on Ray? You know, right now at 4 o'clock, you know, right now at 4 o'clock, the software team meeting started. Oh, perfect. And so those guys, Mark Buena and Mark Guidarelli run that meeting. And those guys are all right now, as we speak, they are in a Zoom talking about all things software.
    11:29
    Ray Day, he streams for TPN as well, and he's incredibly active on our Discord. And I also know that he listens. He consumes all pinball media immediately. I know, yeah. If you post something, it's like, how are you listening to this episode so fast? And so I just like giving a hard time. So we had a vendor today that bought pizza for the company.
    11:54
    Nice. So we had, like, this place, like, this week is like, you want to gain 20 pounds? Come to Stir Pinball. That's awesome. We're going to be for the holidays, right? This guy, you know, they bought pizza, Northern Precision Plastics. They make a lot of our vacuum form product, you know, our ramps and stuff like that. And they bought pizza for the company.
    12:17
    That's a lot of pizza. And that's a lot of pizza. The entire manufacturing facility, everybody, you know, like in a line, you know, salad, pizza, you know. That's awesome. And then, like, you can't walk the building without stumbling into, like, cookies and popcorn and cake and God knows what. The guys in Chuck Ernst's crew, Chuck made some sort of concoction of eggnog that, like, based on some recipe that, from some chef or something. I mean, they were telling me this crazy story that where you make this stuff, and it has to sit for six to eight weeks before you can drink it. So Chuck says, it isn't going to go amoled, but I guess the alcohol in there prevents that from happening. So I said, Chuck, I love eggnog, but two of these, and I couldn't drive home. So it's like we've got to be, you know.
    13:14
    So that's why you're getting a bigger building is what it sounds like, to prepare for all these snacks and goodies that keep coming your way. Oh, my God. I mean, yeah, this is a bad week to try to lose weight at Scrum Pinball. Well, so that kind of made me. I was walking the bond line this morning, and Javier, who runs the factory, called me over, and he had this huge container of chicken tamales. There you go. And so I had chicken tamales for breakfast. you know pizza for lunch and more chicken tamales oh you're good yeah oh yeah you're doing good well that kind of leads me to my first question just a very open-ended one but like what in the life of George Gomez at Stern what would you call is like one of your best days like what would that look like like a best day and then I'll let you know right now the follow-up's going to be like what would a bad day for George Gomez at Stern look like well so I mean a great day is, I love it when guys call me in the office, they call me into their office and say, you want to see something cool? Oh, cool, yeah. And I had that today with Brian and Dwight with their next game, and I shot their white wood, and we talked about the game and stuff, and they've got some really cool stuff, and so it's like that, I mean, to me that that's fun right that's like I walk around the building I I talk to all these different design teams everybody's doing something different we're having you know you're playing the games you're talking about them you're you know you're dealing you're dealing with you know problems and issues and how do I make this right and how to etc but that's a fun day that's a really fun day a bad day what's a bad day a bad day is a problem you discover a problem you know we've made a bunch of bad stuff and we got to figure out how to fix it or we've got something that's that like you know um you know some number of these things got out the door and i mean it's just that's a bad day right but um you don't have you know i mean look we sometimes it's it the problems are all over the map right like you say hey this uh something's failing and you know you know uh or or we can't get these parts and we got to figure something out because the line's got to keep running so So what do we, you know, sometimes we have to invent a solution to you can't get this part. Okay, but we can get this part. So, you know, so, yeah, that's a bad day. Yeah, it sounds like it's just constant problem solving, not only like actual problems, but also you're creating something. So how do I make this? It is.
    15:56
    I mean, you know, with the problems, the coolest thing about developing pinball machines is that the problems, they are so diverse. The things that, you know, like one minute you're talking about a game rule that doesn't quite fit right, feel right, and next minute you're talking about a physical problem, and another minute you're talking about how do we manufacture this in the best way, how do we make something cost what it needs to, or, you know, hey, you know, I'm, you know, or you might be discussing a piece of art or you might be discussing a piece of music or you might be discussing a sound effect or something like that or sometimes there are problems coming from the outside like a distributor or an operator that poses some sort of a challenge about something. Nowadays we have Insider Connected. It's another whole arena of stuff that's different and that we have to deal with. And so, yeah, I mean, not a shortage of things to do. I'll tell you that right now. No, and what's interesting is I actually, so I interviewed you and Tanya last, it was like June or July. And so it was actually July of this year that I was like, you know what, I kind of want to reach out to George again and just check in. And like, see, it's been a year. You kind of, you actually hinted at Insider Connected when we interviewed. And so at this point, Insider Connected was out. I was like, this will be fun. It'll be cool to check in on them. and I remember I reached out to you, and your response was like, I'd love to do an interview, but maybe we should wait until the fall when the game's out. And I remember reading that, and I was like, the game? What are we talking about? Is George on a game? Like, what's this? And then the game came out, and I told myself I didn't want to have a conversation until I had actually played your game, and so that delayed it, and here we are. I finally have it here in-house, but here we are in December, and so what I'm realizing, one, is you're a busy man. Like, I don't know if there's a good time ever throughout a year for you to catch your breath. It's hard. I mean, I'm going into a little bit of a catch-my-breath period, but I, you know, I'm taking, I'm headed to New York to spend time with my girlfriend on Thursday, and I'll be there through the holidays. Nice. And so, you know, I'm not working during that time. I have, God knows I have been, you know, I've been out there with her, with her numerous times and I've, and I've had to work. So, yeah, I mean, you know, it's, it's exciting. I mean, it, look, it, look, it's, I, I, I, I have nonstop days, but it's, it's all good. It's all, I mean, it's, it's, it's all good. I'm going to miss it someday, I think. Oh, yeah. You know, but I think it, there, there's, there's a lot, there's always a lot going on. We're, you know, we're preparing. There's another whole sphere of things that are happening in the background with preparing for the big move to our new building. And, you know, I mean, there's just a lot of stuff. Yeah, it's nonstop. And so now that I actually have Bond and I've had a chance to play it, yeah, I'd love to talk a little more about that. Well, I know you did two fantastic interviews with the Super Awesome Pinball Show. So I've listened to those, and then I also know you did a stream with Marco Pinball, and I watched all of that. So I highly recommend anybody that's listening or watching this now, those are all worth your time. And I don't want to reiterate any of their questions. Right, right. But there was a few things that, like, one question that I really like is, so obviously this was a Steve Ritchie game. He had it. There was a point in time where you were, he's gone, you had his Whitewood, and you were trying to work on his game. That's right. And you decided, I can't do it. So you scrapped it. So my question is, and I also know there was a guy that kind of egged you on with two-flipper, and you're like, no, I've got to do a three-flipper game. So here you are. You're sitting in front of your Whitewood. Kevin Grillo, I don't know if you guys know him, but he's a good guy. And I think he came to operating out of being an enthusiast. And so, but he, you know, he said to me one day, he said to me, and I, he said to me, he goes, I can't wait for the next, he loves Deadpool. So he says to me, he goes, can't wait for the next George Gomez two flipper masterpiece. And I was like, oh, buddy. I can't do that. So that's what I'm thinking is you, I know you're a tangible guy. So I'm assuming you're sitting down in front of your sketchbook. So it's like, it's a blank slate. I mean, is the first decision or the first, like, what was the first thing besides flippers and slings that you put on that? Was it just like, do I want the third flipper on the right side or the left side? Like, where do you, what was the first thing you thought of? So I knew that, so I, believe it or not, I really do try to, I mean, some guys think all my games are the same, but I really do try to reinvent myself every time. And so I knew that I hadn't done a three flipper game since my very first effort Corvette. So I said, OK, I'm going to do a three flipper game. I knew that right from the get go. And and and the question was, you know, you're right. What do I do with the flipper? So now the setup that I did on Bond is very similar to Corvette. The Corvette was actually easier to shoot.
    21:30
    That combination was actually easier to shoot. because it was my first game, and the shot entrances were enormous. And so I've got a lot more experience now. I've got, I think, 20 pinball designs under my belt. And so what I can do now that I couldn't do then is I can be more precise with my architecture, and I have a lot more confidence about what I can get away with. And so the other thing I wanted was I wanted some stuff that – I wanted a fair distinction between something that a novice can do and something that a pro can do. So I really wanted – I wanted some things to remain hard and I wanted some things to be give-dimmies for the average guy, for everybody that walks up to the game. those upper flipper shots and the speed of some of those feeds is definitely an advanced player skill. But as a novice or an average player, when you do hit them, you do feel like a million bucks. And so, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think I talked a lot about what I did, the thinking behind Bond and stuff. And by the way, we're hardly done with Bond Our challenge has been we have so much video content and getting approvals is a little bit more complicated than what we normally end up doing And so every one of my releases has to be approved. So I can't. And so I'm in that. And with fingers crossed, you guys are going to see one here in the next couple of days. Right before Christmas, we're trying to give you another drop on Bond. Awesome.
    23:25
    And so, you know, we're working on that. My lighting? Yeah, this is happening in the Marco stream, which I think is hilarious. Yeah, and so I – Your lighting's fine. Okay, great. You look great. We'll leave it there. But, yeah. So I know – I think you said it was like the ramp or the two ramp was kind of one of the first elements you kind of laid on the plate. That was one of the – yeah, yeah. And that was kind of a tongue-in-cheek, you know, Gary always tells me that when we do a third flipper or an upper flipper, that it's inaccessible to a novice. And so he said, you know, you guys dedicate some element of the architecture to something that most people can never get. so I decided that if I was going to do that, that thing was also going to be accessible to the novice so that's why, that's where that combination ramp that concept comes from and honestly in the very first few gate reviews on the game you guys have heard me talk about gate reviews in the past I think and so the first few gate reviews in the game I call that the Gary ramp And he was kind of thrilled that I, okay, you did what I wanted, which is you have a portion of it that is accessible to an expert player, but that doesn't preclude that a novice can actually hit that shot. Sure. And I know that's something, the more that I've gotten into pinball and just watching, like, my friends and family come and play the games, it's very clear when they step up to a game, they want to be wowed. They want to see something, right? So normally it's a mech. They see something on the game. So I'm assuming if somebody walked up to your bond premium, they're going to see James Bond back there in the corner or the rocket, and they're going to go, how do I do this? Yeah, James Bond in the corner is great. It's great curve appeal, but it's much harder to do. Everybody can get the rocket. And actually there's a multi-ball that's not terribly hard to get that's tied to the rocket. it. So I think that, yeah, and we're not, you know, like the flying, the jetpack on, which is what you're referring to. We've got some really cool modes where you're actually going to control the jetpack as opposed to the game controlling jetpack. And so, you know, we're still working on that. But yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, the idea is the game's got to, it has to appeal to a broad demographic of people and in every way, right? You know, from across the room it has to do that. When you're standing in front of it, it has to do that. And after you've played it ten times, it's still got to do that. And if when we get it right, we get it right. You know, I mean, like, you know, I think that Deadpool has a lot of replayability. I agree. So I think that I can tell you that right now what's in my head that the balance of my work on James Bond at this point is how do we make this as fun as all the other like ultra fun you know games that I've managed to you know I've been fortunate enough to create uh over the course of of the time so that's really I mean that's the focus right it's like we all play you know we all we we all play it together we all talk about it and we all discuss it. We all go like, okay, this is hard. This is easy. That was fun. Let's do more of that.
    27:06
    How do we get more humor into it? How do we get more fun stuff that will make you smile, stuff that makes you feel connected to the game? I will say one thing that you did very well is, and I know there were some issues with Rush and its scoop in the middle and that caused the whole thing, but the The scoop for the DV8 or DV5, that scoop is awesome. I mean, where it is, I was kind of scared that that would be a hard shot. It is a hard shot. It is. It consumes it. But I'm not getting any rejects from it. It seems like it's very safe. It swallows that ball right up when you want it to. I'll tell you what was a big problem.
    27:51
    It's like I fixed it, and so nobody knows it was a big problem. But the other scoop, the other scoop was a huge problem because if you notice, there's a foam pad on the side rail. Do not remove that foam pad. Okay.
    28:09
    Do not remove that foam pad or you will live in that scoop. Oh, so you're saying the foam pad keeps the ball from just always being in the scoop. Yes, because the back and forth on the game. And I had several different designs for that area.
    28:27
    One of them was similar to something I did on Lord of the Rings, where the floor of the water was stepped down. Okay, yeah. And for sure the ball was in there all the time. And it was just too much. And so I raised it up to the play field level to try to get rid of that. And that helped, but it didn't fix the problem. So the foam pad fixed the problem. And so, yeah. And you can still shoot in there. Oh, yeah. At one point I had a target by the flipper. Turned out the target wasn't doing anything, so I took it out. Yeah. If you hit the target, you're probably going to hit the scoop. Yeah. It's interesting because, like, on the promo video and the promo photos, there was no foam pad. And then you had a foam pad, and people are like, what the heck? What are they doing? And you're actually helping. Yeah. So, look, I always, the way the game feels is king, and everything else is after that. So, yes, there was a beautiful illustration of the Disco Volante, Largo's yacht from Thunderball, on that sticker. I think you still get that sticker. I think that sticker's in your. In the goodie bag? In the goodie bag, I think so. But whatever you do, do not remove the foam pad. Put this couple onto there because you will hate yourself. Yeah. Well, that's good to know. That's really good to know. And I think another question here, I mean, I know that was another thing that people noticed early on was that the premium, the two pops were tied together. And some people read into that and they're like, oh, Stern's cheaping out, blah, blah, blah.
    30:09
    Go ahead. So, yeah. I mean, I think I answered this question on the other podcast. But the reality is that one of the things that a designer does is, honestly, you have to balance the amount of what your budget is relative to the things you're trying to do. And the way we – the really cool thing about the Spike system is that – one of the really cool things about it is that it's modular and scalable. So every node board supports some level of resources in the game, features, you know, switches, drivers, targets, you know, motors, all this stuff, right? Driven by coils, driven by the node boards, right? So when you had most Stern games are built with two node boards, Sometimes we use – the beauty of the architecture is that the communications protocol that is used to connect together all of the nodes within the game is such that when we need a special node, we create a special node, and then that node goes into the inventory. So, for example, the node that drives the QR reader is a custom node that it says basically I drive QR readers. And sometimes you'll see nodes that like, for example, there's a node on the television set in Batman. Right. So so what that means is that.
    31:43
    That you have you're not re-architecting a system, you're designing a custom specific piece that now becomes a part of your inventory of things that you can take off the shelf and use when you're designing another game that needs something like that uh and it all fits inside the environment of the network protocol so that so that you know spike two powers up it says all right everybody who's in the world tell me who you are i'm node eight. I'm node nine. I'm node seven. I'm this node. I'm that node. I'm the cabinet node. And so they all report in and the system says, okay, I understand who you are. Now let's talk. And, you know, and that's essentially how a game, you know, how a game happens. So to go back to your question, when you run out of drivers and you have to spend the money for an additional node, you have to make a choice what's it worth to you yeah and and and having two pop bumpers separated it's kind of like you say to yourself do you want me to kill one of the other features to give you two independent pop bumpers if you can prove when in fact i made two pop bumpers tied together two pop bumpers and a rubber band i made them work as well as any three pop bumper array that i've ever designed in my life. And I, you know, I challenge anybody to tell me that those pop bumpers work any worse than any other pop bumper array I've ever done. Yeah. So I'm like, I don't, you know, you really want me to add, you know, it's like, you want me to kill like a flying guy or you want me to, you know, what do you want me to take out? You want me to take out the DV5 so that you can have a independently connected pop bumper? Not going to happen. So your node board, So that's what I wanted to ask. I think they said, or it was said on the Marco stream, that that means you have 18, was it 18 drivers? Is that between the two numbers? Yeah, I don't remember what the number of, I don't remember the exact number, but that's how we do it. So we basically, you say, I got this many switches, I got this many light drivers, I got this many coil drivers. I need, you know, I need a motor driver board. I need to, you know, whatever it is that you need, you start with the set. And when you need to go over, you have to basically say, okay, I'm willing to spend that cost. I'm willing to say, now, let's say, for example, that you were light on, like, the cost of your toys. Let's say that you're a mech. Let's say you don't have a Godzilla building or a Batman turntable. And now, you know, you say, okay, look, I got extra money. I can add another node. you know a node has a value I don't know what that you know I forget what the cost of a node is but it's but it's enough that you say okay I'm not going to add another hundred bucks to the game just to drive another pop bumper and then I have all these and I have all these spare resources that I I don't have any use for right because you're buying you're buying into the notion of a whole node and I'm certainly not going to create like a a two coil drive node board for you know one game one time for one pop bumper you know I mean it's like I don't mind it's Not even about one time because it will go in the inventory, and that's how we work around here. We're just like, what do you got on the shelf? What can you use to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish? So the brainstorming that I was trying to – so when you were talking about, you know, slots or how many – like a node board, if you have 18 things. So I'm assuming that's coils and that's motors. Is that right? Yeah. Well, nodes drive, you know, lamps. They read switches and coils. Motor drivers, we typically, it depends on the kind of motor. Sometimes we can use a coil drive. Sometimes we can use a different, a light drive can sometimes control a motor. Okay. So it depends on what it is, you know, a stepper or whatever it is. It has different characteristics, but you're still assigning resources. By the way, this is not anything new. Yeah, yeah. You know, like when I worked, I worked on Monster Bash and whatever the, you know, I forgot what the, you know, the parameters WPC95 were, we had to work to that. Right. So it's kind of like, or you're creating something special, you're adding something to the system, et cetera, and you have to justify the cost. We don't shoot from the hip around here. No. Meaning that, you know, it's like the game has a cost target. The team tries to hit that cost target.
    36:26
    There's some flexibility as you get close, and the flexibility has to do with the balance of the business equation.
    36:37
    You know, does the sales team think they can pass the cost on to the customer? Does the sales team believe that they don't have that ability, that there is that limitation. And so there's lots of different things that play into this, right? The cost of a game is not just what the designer puts into it, but the cost of those materials and processes and all of the things that it costs to make these things. And those costs, by the way, in the world today are all upside down because of COVID, right? And we're still suffering from it. The supply chain is all screwed up. And all of the things that we buy cost more. Very seldom is somebody showing up and going, hey, the price of plywood just dropped. Lucky you. It's on sale.
    37:24
    Right. So does the bill of material, does that fluctuate based on license? Like does a more expensive license mean you can't put as much in your game? Well, it may not mean that you put more in your – it may not restrict what you put in the game, but it will definitely affect the price. Okay, yeah. So, you know, it's kind of like you say, OK, look, when we go into a licensing situation, if the cost of the license is X, that is part of the cost of the game. So there's there's no you know, there's no two ways about it. And that deal affects, you know, that look, a very a very expensive license is a license that in some ways you still have to do the math and say, when do we amortize this? How do we get the licensor needs to make money? We need to make money, and we have to create a product that's within the scope of what a customer will afford. So, you know, I mean, there are exceptions, right? When you do very limited, you know, very niche products, you can, you know, basically do something different. You're about to see that when we announce the 60th anniversary bond. Sure. I know everybody's on my case because I've said several times that it's around the quarter. I won't ask you. Well, no, but the release decisions are sales and marketing decisions. They're not mine. So I think those guys, they know what they're doing, and they will make some – they'll say, oh, hey, maybe we're going to release it at this time or we're going to release it at that time. We'll just – yeah. Yeah, well, I just, so many people, I don't know, so many of us on Pinsider, Facebook, or whatever, everybody assumes they know something about the BOM, the Bill of Materials. And, well, that clearly had more, that clearly had less. I mean, can you explain, like I know when I interviewed Keith and we were talking about Godzilla, I said something about an opto spinner. He's like, don't get me wrong, I love opto spinners, but it costs me, I could put three normal spinners in for the price of one opto. So does an OptoSpinner use more resources like on a node board, or is it just a cost thing, opto versus regular? No, it's just that it's very simple. It's like it is the cost of that device. Okay. So in some cases, in the case of this pop bumper, a pop bumper is a pop bumper is a pop bumper. The only variation you've seen in the cost of pop bumpers is essentially what prices that the market forces on us. like the price of steel or the vendor that molds the plastic part. Maybe oil's gone up and he pays more for his plastic, so he charges me more for the pop bumper cap, whatever it is. So that's the only variation. But in my case, it meant I'm adding another node board to drive that pop bumper.
    40:22
    What Keith is talking about is an opto-spinner, while it works amazingly, I've got one on bond, right? And the only problem I have with it right now is that sometimes the bracket's not formed right, and I've seen some of them come off, and I'm working on getting you a fix for that. But the reality is that it's the cost of that part. So it's like, look, that spinner has some pretty trick sensors on it, and, you know, the electronics cost X. It's not as simple as a bracket, the weighted spinner, and a micro switch. So you make tradeoffs. If you want zero friction and things spin forever, then you're going to go the opto way or the sensor way. And if you, you know, but he's looking at what he's talking about is he's responsible for his bill of materials. So he's got to make choices. Just like I made a choice to tie the pop numbers together, he's making choices. And he's saying, you know, love this thing, but I'm not going to – I love it more that I have three spinners. Yeah, yeah, it's more important. Right. In my case in Bond, I was like – I had one spinner. And originally I had two. I had one in that center lane. Okay. And it turned out that I started doing other things with that center lane. And I thought, you know what, I don't really need this second spinner. So I took it out. And so, yeah, the designer is making choices about the content of his game. What about, so like another thing that Keith said is he said on the back of Godzilla, originally he had just flat plastics for the buildings. And somebody higher up said, that looks bad, let's do molded plastics. So there's no electronic limitation. I mean, I'm assuming there's probably decisions that are made to, based on manufacturing, they're like, that looks like that would be a pain to install. Well, there's a variety of things because a molded plastic building requires tooling. So there's an expense. Yeah, there's an expense that has to be. So if you, you know, every game has a tooling budget. And by the way, the tooling budget is amortized across the materials of the game. Also, it plays a role in it. So let's say that the tooling budgets have a little bit more flexibility because let's say that Keith uses, for the sake of conversation, let's just say his tooling budget is $100,000 and he only uses $50,000 of it. Okay. Well, now when Brian shows up and Brian requires more than his $100,000 or whatever the number is, I do the math in the back of my head and I go, I got $50,000 that I saved from Keith's tooling budget that I can repurpose for Brian's tooling budget. Okay, yeah. So that's why you'll see a game that maybe doesn't require much and it doesn't have a lot of tooled parts, and then you'll see another game that has a lot of tooled parts. And some of it is the designer's choice, right? Like, I mean, I have, I've made games that don't, I mean, Bond has a lot of tooled stuff, right? It's got a tooled rocket. It's got a tooled dragon tank. It's got a tooled DB5, right? We created that DB5. You know, that's a crap load of tooling money. You know, that DB5, it's an injection molded part with a lot of decoration. in addition to that all the chrome was molded separately electroplated and then glued to the dv5 and then you know i mean it's like there's a lot of detail in that dv5 that dv5 had to be approved by aston martin by the way it looks i mean i'm looking at right now it looks like it could be a legit die cast model like yeah it is incredible absolutely so so and and and aston Martin, you know, I mean, had to sign off on it. So, yeah, I mean, I think, so the, so all of the things that essentially are the cost of the game, tooling, wire, wood, you know, steel, some of it is fabricated, meaning that it doesn't come off of a tool, whether it comes of a dye or ingestion molding tool or whatever it is, a vacuum form tool. all of those things, they cost different amounts. So a vacuum form ramp, the tooling for vacuum forming is substantially cheaper than the tooling for injection molding. And so, you know, a rotomold is something in between. It's more than a vacuum form. It's less than an injection mold. And so we make all of those decisions about the stuff. We looked at the Godzilla molding and we said, you know what, the flat plastics aren't going to cut it. You got to do something better than, you know, whatever. it was, right? And I thank you for it, because just right out of frame, I have a Godzilla Premium, and what a game, man. Oh yeah, it's an awesome game. So you took out a second spinner, but you said you also originally had a mech that was in your bond that is now in Keith's, and I'm assuming that's the odd job spinning hat. Is that right? It is, yeah. And it's actually in both, it was in both games, and it's like, and it was one of those things where we both had it. It wasn't, he He didn't take it from me. We both had it.
    45:51
    And it was screwing up my shots. I'm seeing that. Because you said it right where the weapons were It right where the weapons were Yeah So it like it was right there And it was a compromised position meaning that depending on how it was oriented when it landed it might mean nothing But some percentage of the time, it just didn't feel right to me. So I was like, you know what, I'm not, I don't need this. Yeah. The game, when you're hitting shot, it flows well. And it's a very unique shooter. There's no doubt about it. It really surprised the heck out of me when I backhanded that shot between the two ramps. Like, visually, that does not seem like that would work. And it does. And it's a consistent, reliable shot. So I got to give it to you there. Like, it is a very unique shooter. It doesn't feel like, to me, it doesn't feel like anything you've done before. But, you know, it's like, to the guys that think all my stuff's the same, like, you know, I'm going to give you some titles. I want you to play these titles. And if you can find a place to play these titles back-to-back-to-back, that's how you're going to come to, you know, that's going to be your eureka moment that, oh, my God, his stuff is not the same, right? So, you know, shoot a Corvette, shoot a Johnny Mnemonic, shoot an NBA pass break, shoot a Monster Bash, right, and on. You know, shoot a Lord of the Rings, right? Lord of the Rings, I was stepping out of my, of what, even, you know, all these guys telling me I'm always in a fan layout. Shoot a Lord of the Rings. Does it feel like a fan layout to you? I mean, if it does, you're not understanding what that is, you know, because that game has, one of the coolest things about that game is no matter, almost regardless of what you do, the ball lands in a good place. Yes. I'll give you that, yeah. it's a game that has it really supports a lot of the things that you know we did with the rules that you know that because of how that is you know because of the way that architecture flows so I mean it's like I mean go look at a Batman you think that big round thing in the middle and the moving crane you think all that stuff you know does that really feel the same to you I don't even talk about that Deadpool. Don't even talk about Deadpool, right? I mean, the cross shot, some of the ones that everybody ignores,
    48:23
    my Avengers from, you know, whatever it was, 2012, find a premium Avengers and shoot that. I mean, I think the games, you know, I try to make them feel different so that you have something fresh. With Bond, I thought, I want to get all this stuff in. I just couldn't, you know, I physically didn't have enough architecture, not to mention I would have run out of money to put all the stuff I wanted to put in there. No, I don't blame you. I'm not, I'm in total agreement. I'm not one of those guys. No, I would say, but I guarantee you there's a guy listening to you right now that says, you know, yeah, all his stuff's the same. Yeah. Well, speaking of things that are, like, not the same, and this, I just wrote this down because the Stranger Things projector, The Stranger Things projector. That is so unique to pinball. And so the only reason I bring it up is this projection mapping situation.
    49:25
    I mean, what are your takeaways? That game's been out there a long time. Stranger Things Premium is highly sought after. Do you feel that projection mapping, is that something you guys might do again? Or what were your issues with that? Yeah, so our issues with a bunch of different issues, it's a very strong game. It's a very – I can tell you that it's one of our best earning games. Yes, it kills on location. It kills on location. I think Brian and Lonnie and Mike Vinicore, those three guys did an amazing job with what they had to work with. And I think that the difficulty in projection was like, I don't, you know, I think that it's a difficult game to manufacture. Okay. And I think that, you know, I also think that if, you know, and, you know, you never know. You talk about people, Stranger Things premiums are in demand. You may see those again. That would be great. You know, you may see those again. And one of the things that I want to take another, you know, if we ever revisit that, I think that we could do a better job with the TK lock. Okay. You know, we struggled to get consistent performance from the TK lock. We, you know, we, you know, some people are very fussy about the, you know, precise location of the projected image and all this kind of stuff. And so that's the kind of stuff that makes it hard. It's not that – and the most difficult thing was we went through umpteen different projection solutions. I saw a picture of stacks and stacks of projectors. Oh, my God. Yeah. We validated and tried to find cross – I mean, the amount of work that went into that and to position it, to mount it, to make it consistent with the, to get it to work in different light conditions. And, I mean, it was a ton of work. And so, yes, it's very impressive.
    51:37
    They haven't, honestly, they haven't been unreliable. Okay, that's good. You know, we've had more issues with the TK-Lock than we have had with the projector, which who would have thunk it, right? I mean, you go, man, we do electromagnets. We could do electromagnets in our sleep. All the time, yeah. Yeah, so.
    51:57
    I think that projector, it's just the idea of taking a physical play field and having something change on it, you know, like that's what on Godzilla, you know, the building going down and now the shots are going different ways. Yeah, you're throwing a diverter, even just having a diverter in bond to fling the ball up into the rocket lock, you know, but that's something, that visual change is so strong with the projector. It's the magic. I mean, that is the – are you going to see it again? You may see it again on Stranger – you know, you may see more Stranger Things. I'm not sure if we'll – I mean, it's like when we make decisions like that, they have to – they're integrated into the theme. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right? I mean, that game, you know, the UV lights, right? I mean, all that stuff is integrated in the theme. You know, it's like everybody's asking me, why aren't there UV lights in everything? Well, they don't really make sense to everything, you know? So it's kind of like, you know, it makes sense to stranger things. It didn't make sense to, you know, Godzilla, right, or whatever, you know? So lighting. Let's talk about lighting. I love it. I love lighting. The Expression Light Kit. I had a chance when I borrowed from Zach and Nicole, I borrowed a Led Zeppelin, and they sent me an Expression Light Kit for the Pro. That completely changed the game. Yeah. And that's what I'm hearing all these Rush LE owners are saying the same thing, completely changing the game. I know people are dying for that kit, but is there a limitation to just music pins, or is there a chance that we could see that in a normal game? So I think what I'd like to do, to tell you the truth, what I'd like to do is I'd like to figure out a way where it ships on games that it makes sense to. Like, you know, you mentioned the music pins. Sure. And the reason it works in the music pins is because a really smart guy, Tim Sexton, did a bunch of work on the software side that made some of that lighting appear pretty smart. Okay. And so it is that interaction with the music that is the magic. Yes. Because otherwise you just have a bunch of lights like you have on some of these aftermarket things. The choreography is insane. They're not. No, not at all. And they're not going to be because of that. So what I'd like to do is I'd like to, you know, every cabinet has the ability to take it. And if you want to, you know, we've talked about, you know, we'll probably ship it on games that it makes sense to ship it in. Everything else you can buy it for and install it. and there will be some amount of code that's done so that it works in anything. The other thing it does is it's going to, you know, it's like all these guys with the aftermarket lighting solutions, honestly, those things are pretty cumbersome, right? I mean, you want to lift the play field and you've got to take all this stuff off, and it's like, I don't want that. I want it to be seamless.
    55:04
    That's why I have actually splurged and bought the official toppers because it's actually built into the game and choreographed into the game. We're working on a – we're playing around with a new bottom cabinet design that will sort of move the game on and, you know, do some of the things. You know, like I don't know what it was, eight years ago or something, I redid the back box, and that back box has been very successful. It's so nice, and when it's screwed together right, it's awesome. It does so many things, and it does it well, and it's really easy to control the fit and finish and stuff like that for the most part. And so we want to do a cabinet that has the same sort of thing. Our cabinet over years has a lot of Band-Aids in it because we've run into problems or a vendor gets in, And, you know, we get into a jam on something and we have to do something last minute on it. So I want to take a step back and clean all that stuff up. It's an opportunity to integrate some of these features in a more elegant way.
    56:16
    And so, you know, one of the bazillion R&D projects that are going on around here, you know. Just squeeze it in, yeah. No, I think lighting is huge for me. And that leads me to another question, which is it seems like most other manufacturers at this point have kind of transitioned where every single insert or bulb on the game is an RGB LED of some sort. I know you guys have had, like, Guardians of the Galaxy Premium. Every insert was an RGB LED. Is there – or what's your thought process on still having, you know, colored inserts or just single bulb inserts? I know you've gone to on certain games, like, three-color GI. So it's a cost challenge. Okay. And for us, it's sort of like, you know, you trade. What am I trading to do that?
    57:05
    And where does it mean something? Because when I come off of some of these games and I'm like, my eyes, you know, I'm seeing spots. I'm like, okay, you know, that looked great in your launch video, but good God, I don't want to play that thing. you know so yeah so i don't you know i don't i mean that's the problem right but the problem is that it's kind of like just it's like it's like the blind just too much shove shit in there i mean i'm sorry you know it's kind of like i want a more elegant solution i want something so it's like yeah we talk you know full rgb blah blah blah blah you know it talks about all the time the other thing is i want to do it in such a way that that's cost effective for us and so So there's been a lot of discussion around here about how to do that in a more elegant way than what everybody else has done. Okay.
    57:58
    But I don't, you know, I just, I don't, I want, I'm very focused on, we need to be, you know, we need to pick our battles so that we can continue to be successful.
    58:12
    I weigh all of these decisions. Oh, yeah. And so I say, okay, I'm going in this, okay, it's important to do this now. It's not important to do that now. And so I make choices, right? And you guys talking about, you know, what do I do? This is what I do. Yeah, problem solving and making hard decisions every day.
    58:32
    One thing I did look up is Spike 2. We've been on a Spike 2 board a long time. Is there Spike 3? Is that in the works or a whole other board? Are we anywhere close to that? Yeah, it is. It is, yeah, Spike 3 will bring a whole new host of, you know, I mean, so the beauty of Spike 3 is you're going to get a lot more power without incurring a lot more cost. And the reality is that the node architecture will remain as is. Nice. So basically, you know, there will be an element of backward compatibility, which gives us flexibility in terms of the transition to a new hardware set.
    59:26
    And, yes, the work on that is, you know, you're not going to see it yesterday or very soon, but you'll see it. But, yes, it's being worked on. More processing power and, you know, all of the things that are sort of like, okay, you know, it's like we know this, and now we need to move the game on, and this is how we're going to do it. Well, that's good. I know my fear, well, it wasn't a fear, but, like, when Insider Connected came out, it just seemed like such a revolutionary change that, in my mind, I'm like, I'm surprised that's not Spike 3 exclusive. You know, I'm surprised that that's the fact that not only is it Spike 2, but also that you made all the, you retrofitted all the games so that every single one of your games, it's, that's awesome. And because of Spike 2. That's awesome. Meaning, meaning it's like, you know, so all of, all of that could happen because of Spike 2. Because when we did Spike 2, we said, okay, we don't know what we don't know about the future, but we need to – flexibility is, like, really important. Oh, yeah. Keep it modular. And, by the way, that flexibility has also saved our ass in terms of mass-producing the volumes of games that we're producing in an environment where you can't get parts for this or that or the other thing. And so those decisions, the more modularity and flexibility that you can design into a system, the more survivable you will be. And those are not sexy decisions. So no one wants to focus on them. No one wants to think about them. And some, you know, my genius hardware design guardian angel, Andrew Pines, is a freaking visionary. And when we sat down to talk about what should the system be, those were big, big points. Yeah, and it's paying off years and years later. That was 2017. 2017 is when, what was it, Batman was the first one with it, right? Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. But Spike, but actually, so Spike 1 was around for a short period of time. I think Spike 2, yeah, I guess we launched it with Batman. We actually launched it with, we launched it with Batman, then we went, we did, but Arrow beat Batman into production. So you saw it on Batman, but Arrow beat Batman into production. So, yeah, I mean, it's, and it's going to have a good, you know, it's going to have a pretty healthy life. And especially with what nobody knows is the volume, the huge volume of games that we've made. Yeah. There's a lot of them out there. Right. So, yeah. Well, speaking of your volume, I mean, I know this year you had to go down. Instead of three cornerstones, you went down to two. And it's looking like next year is also going to be two. So that's fantastic that it gives from a manufacturing standpoint, it gives you a chance to not only catch up on some of this ridiculous backlog you have. But having this extra time, I mean, you have Brian Eddy, you've got Jack Danger now, Keith Elwin, John Borg, and then yourself if you want to be included in that. But, I mean, it sounds like from a designer standpoint, does that mean now that every designer has more time to invest in each one of their games because of the manufacturing schedule? Yeah, some do. Yeah. Some definitely do. I didn't. Some do. You never do, really. Yeah. Yeah, some do. So they have – but you also – I mean, you know, we're also booked out to, you know, two years in terms of licenses and stuff. And so there's guys that when they finish and, you know, in the game, you know, the game – you know, hopefully they'll finish, the game's done, and it goes on the shelf and they move on to their next game. But those guys are all busy. I mean, every one of those designers that you just mentioned, I've flipped their games.
    63:34
    You know, I've been flipping their games for a little while. So they all have stuff going on. And you're going to see some, you know, some really cool new things. And, yeah, it's very exciting. Oh, for sure. No, I know the production schedule has kind of already been out there. And just seeing what's coming ahead, it's like, okay, well, March, we're going to have to see what's coming up, you know. Yeah, that's right. You know, if people are going to guess, we're assuming it's probably going to be Jack Danger or Brian Eddy. That's who's next in line, right? Yep. Let's see. Let's see what's coming up. I'm excited about it. One name I haven't seen in a while is Tanya. What's Tanya up to these days? I know when we talked, he was the Insider Connected guy, and he said he was going to have a game. Yeah, he's collaborating with Mr. Danger. Oh, fantastic. Okay. Yeah. So he's back in, I mean, I know he's in the series. He's in the seat. He's in the seat. That's awesome. Yeah, he came off of some of the genius work that he did on IC. I heard. Deadpool. Yeah, and then he's on Mr. Danger's product. Oh, that's exciting. So that team, yeah, those guys are working together, and then we'll see what's in store for him after that. That's cool. I have just, there's a lot of people that, you know, for Deadpool to be his, essentially his only game. I mean, he crushed it with that code. And so that's why I know there's a lot of people, myself included, that are anxiously awaiting to see what's next. Yeah, I was just going to say, we were laughing because yesterday Mr. Zombie Yeti sends me the snapshot from Pinside. You know, I never go to Pinside, so I don't know what the hell's going on. But he sends me the snapshot from Pinside that Deadpool's number four or whatever. and we were laughing. So I was with Tanya in my office this morning. I said, dude, nice job. And he turns around and he goes, dude, nice job. There you go. Yeah. You just had each other on the back. You guys really crushed it. You guys absolutely really crushed it in that game. Yeah, we had fun. We had fun. We had a lot of fun. Well, what else do I have? I have, well, here we go. Here's a good transition for you. Speaking of doing things together. Yeah. Co-op mode. Co-op mode, to me, is huge. Like, I have a TNA. That was the first game that I played, Total Nuclear Annihilation, that had co-op mode. And in my mind, it's a game changer as a teaching tool to be able to play a game with somebody and, like, let's do this together. And then Dwight, shortly thereafter, threw it in Turtles, and now it's been in every Dwight game. Is there – is this kind of – are they in Dwight games because Dwight cares about it, or is there a chance that co-op mode may become a standard? No, we all care about it. We all think it's cool. There's lots of things that you're going to see, I think, related, and some of those things are actually going to spill over until I see. Cool, okay. So, yeah, it's strictly a matter of, you know, to some extent it is designer's choice, but everybody talks about it and everybody's like, oh, yeah, if I had time I'd put this in. And so, yeah, I mean, there's some really cool stuff coming that I unfortunately can't really get into, but that will – a lot more stuff kind of like that is the best I can tell you. I'm fine with that, no. And a lot of it is, you know, and some of it is – it's really – a lot of it is the power of IC, the ability to do some of those, you know, some things that make the game interact in new ways. And so, yeah, co-op mode is well loved. There's no, it's not going anywhere. I love it, like I said, as a teaching tool. It's a fantastic teaching tool. And that was another thing I thought up is, like, difficulty settings. If that was something, I mean, these are all ideas I know you've already had, but that's. Well, we have talked a little bit about difficulty settings. It always comes down to, I think that we get into the cycle of making the game and the pressure and focus on the core game. Yeah. Somehow, you know, these things fall to the side. Sure. Not that we don't want to do them or know how to do them. It's simply a matter of you've got to make choices. And when you're up to it, I mean, when a game team, the part that no one understands is the amount of pressure and work that a game team undergoes to generate these games. And pressure is like, I mean, it comes from a hundred sides, right? depending on where you are in the project.
    68:37
    And there are licensing challenges. There are cost challenges. There are performance challenges. There are manufacturing challenges. I mean, it's just a million things. There are schedule challenges and life challenges that introduce that because you have human beings working on the product So shit happens in people lives and it affects the like where it affects the cycle the development cycle and stuff like that But I mean we I said it before we run the studio with a certain amount of discipline
    69:10
    These guys have bought into it. If you're here, you know, if you're here and operating in this environment, it's because you've bought in to the vision. And you know what? I've proven that division can work.
    69:27
    So it's kind of like some amount of discipline is required to do this work. And if you don't want to do that, you just want to, you know, take six years to make a game, this isn't the place for you. Yeah. And that's something I, you know, congrats on that. When it comes to Stern, I have full confidence you're going to get a game. You're going to get a finished game, you know. And that's something, I mean, that's a lot of conversation with Bond. Maybe Bond isn't finished now, but everybody. It will be. Exactly. It will be. The code will be good. You're not going to. You have my word. I mean, you're not. Look, we went through a difficult period of time, and people don't understand this. When I joined the company in 2011, I had nine guys in development. Nine guys, right? So, yeah, did it take us a long time to finish the games in that era? It did. It absolutely did. Longer than we wanted. But we're at a place now where we usually ship you, we seldom ship you less than, Bond would have shipped, Bond probably would have shipped at .85, .9, something like that, had we not bumped into a lot of licensing stuff at the 11th hour, and we did. we're ready to go with much more content and man this landed on our heads and we're like okay we can't do it this way we have to change how we do it and we took a step back and so unfortunately we've shipped you with .7 we're about to give you a bunch more stuff hopefully here we're trying to do this drop before Christmas if we get all our approval ducks in a row but I think that I guarantee you that The magic here, we're at the point where right now we're adding content to the game, which inherently brings more fun to the game. But there's a step beyond that, which is let's polish this thing. What you see in a Deadpool, which no one realizes, Deadpool's got a crap load of polish. It's not about a crap load of content. It's about a crap load of polish. what's there is pretty, you know, it's pretty tightly worked. And we paid attention to a lot of it, right? And so that's the part that gets lost. Everybody wants more and more and more and more and more. You know what? More half-assed doesn't mean anything to you. Yeah. More modes. If the modes aren't fun, that's no good. Like, you got to, and that's what I know stands out about Deadpool is it's a funny game. Like, there's the humor in it, the music is great, the light shows are great, not to mention the rules and the codes and the mode you're doing. And honestly, I can't sort of, I can't understate the notion that when you give us freedom, which in the particular case of Marvel, they did, when you give us freedom, you get a lot of stuff. that is really cool because we start thinking outside of the realm of, you know, a particular channel. So in Deadpool, one of the things that brought the fun to the game was that every day we were like, Hey, wouldn't it be cool if, you know, so, Hey, let's do, let's do a bunch of crazy music that it's all about Deadpool being Deadpool. And it's all about, I'm Deadpool and I'm, you know, I'm me and I'm, I'm crazy and all it and just have fun with it. So like all these different music genres, all this stuff. And that's a crazy idea. I think, you know, doesn't exist in the Marvel universe. It's like, we just made it up. Right. So it's like, and then, you know, it's like, okay, this is the set of characters you get to work with. Okay, great. Let's make them as random and, and let's try to be true to the, you know, true to the characters, but as random and feeling, you know, as, as they can be, you know, let's play up all of the elements of the characters, right? The sort of that uncomfortable rivalry between Wolverine and Deadpool, right? The, you know, Deadpool's, you know, his loves, his, you know, his foes, the whole thing, right? So it's like, let's just make stuff up. Little Deadpool, I mean, there's two pages and, you know, there's two or three pages in the pantheon of Deadpool that have little Deadpool. And we said, oh, let's do this. Let's turn this camera. And it's like, yeah, you know. And, I mean, honestly, when we went back to Marvel with that,
    74:15
    I was like, what is this? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, we had a room. Okay, page two of volume, you know. Oh, that guy? Yeah.
    74:27
    Well, with that, I remember when we talked about Deadpool before, that was the main takeaway is when you have a licensor that gives you the freedom to do what you want, you guys are incredibly creative people and you can run with it. Is there any appeal at Stern to do an unlicensed theme? I know other manufacturers think it's the greatest thing ever to do an unlicensed game. It's really hard. Only because are we going to go there again? Probably. you know we'll do one at some point in time you'll see one from us but i think that i think that that one of the most difficult things about it is that is what you get with a license is sort of instant audience recognition exactly you're appealing to you're appealing to a certain segment of the demographic i'm having a conversation with say okay my game is about a guy and a girl they stole a car they drive it across the country and and they run into all these different scenarios along the way. And I was like, okay, what is that? I have to somehow figure out a way to construct that story, convey it to you, and tell it to you in such a way that it's compelling to you. Not that it's not undoable. It is doable. Sure. It's just that, you know, it's just that it's a lot different than, you know, the number of people in the world that know who Deadpool is. Yeah. And he's like, hey, it's Deadpool. Okay. I got it. Hey, it's James Bond. I know. I totally – I just assume as a designer that's got to be awesome to have that complete freedom. But I also understand from your entire sales department that's probably terrifying because nobody's game sells themselves based on team love. Yeah. You know, Gary used to say if he talks – you know, he talks to the distributorship and he – or, you know, whatever, the French distributor. and he says, I got a game about a guy and a girl. They stole a car in L.A., and they're driving it to New York, and here's all the things that happened along the way. The distributor says, you know, send me two, and I'll test them. Yeah, yeah, whatever, yeah. You call the same distributor and you say, I got James Bond. The distributor writes you a check for $5 million. So it's like, okay, you know. I get it. Right? Well, I only have two more questions for you, And one would be you are – I know you read Facebook. I know you hop in every once in a while and you comment on things, which is incredible. To see a designer or somebody in your place at Stern answer direct questions is awesome. Is there any particular comment that you've read or continue to read over and over and over again? Is there anything specific that you'd like just like to clarify or just kind of get out there? Well, a couple of things. But let me explain to you what that's about. Sure. Uh, so I'm an officer of the company and I'm allowed to speak on, you know, I'm allowed to, to make those posts and, and, and have those conversations as, as an officer of the company. Cause the company trusts me to say things that are consistent with the vision of the company. Okay. My staff is not allowed to do that. Gotcha. So, uh, my guys are not supposed to be doing that. Okay. Every once in a while, someone may, you know, help somebody with something specific or, you know, but our policy typically is that, you know, only certain people in the company can express an opinion that way because that opinion can be construed as an opinion of the company. Gotcha. And so, I mean, it's just a functional thing. If you go to, you know, any big company or any, you know, it has similar things. So, you know, you not know that when when Ray posts, I want to hear about it. No, but I think I think those guys, you know, they're allowed to have a, you know, a life in the community because they are part of the community. It's just that that, you know, they have to be more careful with how they express an opinion. All right. So here's something I want to clarify, which people did not. I should have been more clearer when I when I did the Super Awesome show, you know, with those guys. One of the things that one of the questions they asked me was, you know, when are we getting home leaderboards? Home leaderboards is the thing I'm asked about almost daily. And so it's kind of like, yes, you're getting home leaderboards. Let me let me tell you why you don't have it. Yes. So I said, OK, operators want features that are unique to operators. And that is related to the notion that I see as a new thing. And I see has to exist in lots of worlds. And one of the worlds that we want I see to be successful in is we want to be able to tell people, look, here's a tool for you to drive location, loyalty, location, play to help you run your business. and that tool has nothing to do with what's happening. So we've tried to balance the feature set so that – and some of the things that make sense in the operation environment don't necessarily make sense in home. That's not home. It's not that we believe that leaderboards is that thing. But there's a complexity with those two environments, and that complexity is the fact that beyond the fact that operators want them right now, because that's a thing that they can use when their tool set is pretty light because they actually have fewer things at this point in time than the community has.
    80:19
    And so they're saying, hey, give me something. Give me something to work with. And we're going to give them this and that and the other thing. As their side of the system becomes more robust, we'll be able to do more things in the home. But there's another problem with the home stuff. And this was a part that people misconstrued. I said there are no technical challenges to giving you the leaderboards in a home. And that's because they work in a very similar fashion. What doesn't work in a very similar fashion are privacy issues and security issues. Oh, okay.
    80:52
    So now you would say to yourself, privacy and security in a home inherently seems like it would be tougher to do that in a commercial environment rather than the consumer environment, that's not necessarily the case. When you're in a commercial environment, inherently, you have given up certain rights by the very nature that you are there, that interacting with those products in that way, you have consented to certain things, right? In the home, it's a little different. And there are a whole myriad of complexities, such as when people come over to your house and they show up on your leaderboards? Have they gone through some permission process to be on your leaderboard? Where is your leaderboard published, et cetera? So look, we spent a lot of money with a law firm when we were building IC to make sure that we were on the right side of everything. Okay. And we're going to continue to spend that money because we have to, right? So, and the same thing with the security, you know, with the security company and security issues relative to the Internet and the fact that I have that many more points of contact when it goes into a consumer environment than when it is in a commercial environment. And those points of contact, by the way, in a consumer environment are less controlled than they are in a commercial environment. So I have security issues. I have privacy issues, and I have to be compliant. And so we will solve the problem. Trust me, it's not an unsolvable problem, and we are going to solve the problem. and you'll probably see home leaderboards in 23. So I wanted to clear that up because as soon as I said it, man, I mean, I was like, wow. And honestly, it's like I said, what everybody missed, I said, nobody paid attention to this part, I said there are some business side decisions that have to be made. Those are the business side decisions. privacy and security, we have to have all those ducks in a row. And then we can have them. Nobody heard that. All they heard was, it's technically feasible. And all he's doing is keeping them from him because he's an operator. Well, come on. It never occurred to me that people were going to misconstrue it that way, but that's all right. I mean, it's like, whatever. I'm here to explain it. Here it is. So anyway, yeah, you'll get them. You'll probably get them in 23. You know, but there are challenges, and they're not as simple as you think they are. Yeah, you're not just flipping a switch that you purposely are holding back just to make operators happy. Nope. I get it. Well, so my last question then would be for 2022, what would you say has been your George Gomez's proudest moment in pinball or four-stern pinball in 2022, and then what are you most looking forward to in 2023? Wow, that's tough.
    83:49
    I mean, you know what? I'm proud of what the company did. That's what I'm proud of. I'm proud of what the company did. We continued to grow in a very difficult environment, in a difficult environment in so many different ways, with challenges to every part of our business, manufacturing. every single part of our business was challenged and we're going to have another record year and I'm proud of that and I think that you guys don't see the part where this leadership team has to make really hard decisions have to do things have to basically think on their feet fix problems, move I mean it's react so I think that's the stuff I'm most proud of is like the growth of, of strong pinball in 2022 and an incredibly challenging environment, uh, from every, you know, uh, in every way. I'm proud of that. Um, uh, what was the other half of your question? 2023, what's coming up? What are you excited about? I mean,
    85:04
    I think, I think, you know, for me, it goes back to something very similar, right? That, You know, 2023, we're moving into a new, you know, into a new facility and, you know, new opportunities, new challenges. We've got the two, you know, the two games. I think you're going to love the two games that you see in 23.
    85:31
    Jack's game and Brian's game. You know, Jack and Tanya, Brian and Dwight. they've got some really cool stuff. I played, I'm telling you that I spent 20 minutes flipping Brian and Dwight's game today and I had a gas. Awesome. It was really awesome. And they've got some really cool stuff. Tanya and Jack's game is equally, thematically, it's going to blow your socks off. How's that? So I think it's something it's a move in a different direction for us. And so you're, you know, I think you're going to, and by the way, that's it, you know, that's a you know, that includes Mr. Yeti also. So, you know, cannot be discounted. And so you have, yeah, you have a lot of strength there and and that that's going to be very cool that's awesome yeah i i mean there was no brian eddie this year or not brian eddie there was no zombie yeti there was no zombie yeti this year yeah um in our you're getting you're getting you're getting full metal jacket zombie yeti next year because you guys you know yeah you got it you got him on you got you got him on both products yeah i can't wait i mean that's i didn't realize it until i was just looking at my collection and I'm like, crap, I got Deadpool, Turtles, and Godzilla. I'm a fan. I'm a fan. That guy's decent at art. Oh my god.
    87:09
    I can't say enough about that guy. He's awesome. You know what? The work ethic is unbelievable. It's like nobody really understands. This guy lives his craft. yeah and all the time he is a craftsman i mean i i i mean honest to god yeah he just lives his craft that's awesome um so yeah you're gonna get two amazing games uh from us um and and and of course you know the you know we'll we'll you know we'll fill a lot of orders i know you get a lot of guys that have been waiting. Yeah. And I think there's more, all you Deadpool people, there's more Deadpools in 23. Yeah. That's going to be great. I know all the Elvira people are letting out a huge sigh of relief. Yeah, Elvira, Jurassic Parks, I think there's, you know, and I think you'll see a bunch of stuff and more Bonds. I mean, like you're, we're finishing up the last of the L.E.s right now. So I think when Jan 1 or Jan, you know, Jan 3, I think we're back on the floor, and I think the factory's into You Only Live Twice. And so, yeah. And trust me, there's some really cool, we're going to get, you know, there's some cool surprises related to Bond stuff that I think you're going to like. And wait till you see Keith's game. I know. Yeah, there's plenty on the horizon I know we're all excited about. And, yeah, I mean, that's really all I had. George, I cannot thank you enough for doing this with me again. I'm excited for your move. Good luck packing up your office with all that's in it. Oh, my God. You know, here, I don't know if I can do this.
    89:08
    Editor's note, at this point, George tried to move his computer and his webcam, and something happened where something came unplugged and it killed Zencaster. So we lost audio for a second, but through a little bit of troubleshooting, we got it all fired back up. What is different, though, is his audio is not nearly as good. So this last little bit, sorry, but his audio is not nearly as good quality. And, yeah, we're just going to go from here. So back to the show.
    89:38
    All right, so we had a little technical difficulty there. Apparently when you moved your camera, I showed audio. I was trying to pan so you could see the rest of the office. Oh, it's just nothing but goodies. Yeah. So that's what I was trying to do. Hey, no worries. Sorry about that. No worries at all. Well, I'll just say to wrap it all up. First off, if you are packing up, I know I've said this before, put all your sketches in a pile and just send it to somebody and make a book already. Because I know we're all dying to see them. But, no, truthfully, thank you so much, George. I would love to keep doing this I'll have to play it again next year whenever you want I think I want to say happy holidays to everybody and I hope everybody has a healthy and fun holiday spend time with your families and play some pinball and you know try not to think of us as the evil empire. Honestly, we're just trying to give you great pinball machines. No, and I doubt anybody listening to this, I mean, we all love pinball, and thank you, Stern.
    90:51
    Some of the stuff I read, I'm like, oh my god, how did I get so evil? Well, no, I appreciate you. If you need to hear it from one person, I appreciate yours. It's so evil. Everything's like, must be taking out money. Must be this. Oh, man. All right. No worries. Well, once again, this was episode 35. Thanks again, George, for being on here. And, yeah, we'll have to catch up again soon. We'll see you, Joel. Happy holidays, everybody. All right. Bye.
    91:36
    you