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Ep 127: Merry Christmas Crossover with Triple Drain

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 53m·analyzed·Dec 19, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Crossover podcast addresses Twippies live show cancellation due to threats and reviews Spooky's new Tandem Games.

Summary

This crossover episode between Triple Drain and LoserKid podcasts discusses the cancellation of the live Twippies ceremony at TPF due to threats and toxicity in the community, particularly surrounding content creator award disputes. The hosts debate the significance of industry awards for podcasters, explain voting demographics, and introduce Spooky Pinball's new Tandem Games releases (Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes) with positive reception to the playfield layout.

Key Claims

  • There was a private message sent to the Twippy committee about a plan to have Chris Kaneda win an award with Colin handing it to him in a confrontational manner, followed by a follower suggesting violence ('stab him').

    high confidence · Joel (Triple Drain) discussing the decision to cancel the live Twippies ceremony, claiming he received permission to discuss this information.

  • The Twippies received only 2,800 total votes in the biggest category the last time they published vote counts before switching to percentages.

    high confidence · Multiple hosts discussing the small voting base relative to the pinball community size.

  • There are currently 42,500 active IFPA players (defined as having played one tournament in the last three years).

    high confidence · Joel providing comparative statistics on the voting demographics.

  • Combined followers for Stern, American Pinball, Spooky, and CGC total over one million.

    medium confidence · Hosts discussing the scale of manufacturer reach vs. Twippies voting participation.

  • The Keith Elwin signed Iron Maiden translite that Travis ordered 2.5 years ago (March 2021) from Stern All Access arrived unsigned and unsigned.

    high confidence · Travis and Scott discussing the missing signature on a premium translite product from Stern.

  • Spooky's new Tandem Games have four ramps and incorporate drop targets with a subway scoop mechanic.

    high confidence · Tom Graff analyzing the layout after reviewing stream footage of the games.

  • Spooky Luke and Bug were recently interviewed about the Tandem Games releases, with the episode released approximately 24 hours before this podcast.

    high confidence · Josh and Scott introducing their recent interview (LoserKid Episode 126) about Spooky's new releases.

  • The new Twippies format includes a 'Favorite Content Creator' category where past award winners are ineligible.

    high confidence · Joel explaining the new voting structure and its implications for previous winners like Kaneda and TNT Amusements.

Notable Quotes

  • “There was a private message sent to the TWIP committee... there was a plan to have Chris win the award... and then one of his followers had said, 'be careful... just stab him when he does give you the award.'”

    Joel (Triple Drain) @ Early in Twippies discussion segment — Reveals the underlying threat and toxicity that prompted cancellation of the live ceremony.

  • “I wouldn't want to go to one of these award shows and not come home to my kids. People are just getting riled up.”

    Joel (Triple Drain) @ During Twippies discussion — Emphasizes personal safety concerns that drove the decision to cancel live events.

  • “The drama outside of it exceeds like the actual award show... There's only a small percentage of us that even care about the show.”

    Travis (Triple Drain) @ During Twippies discussion — Highlights the disconnect between niche award controversy and broader community awareness.

  • “We don't do this for a trophy. We do this because it's something we like to do and it's fun.”

    Scott (LoserKid) @ During Twippies philosophy discussion — Articulates the philosophy of content creators vs. the competitive trophy mindset.

  • “If I was looking at this as a whitewood, I would be excited to flip it.”

    Travis (Triple Drain) @ During Spooky Tandem Games discussion — Positive assessment of the new game layout as fundamentally interesting beyond theme or aesthetics.

  • “It's a callback to a 90s layout, you know a 90s belly williams layout.”

    Scott (LoserKid) @ During Spooky layout analysis — Contextualizes the design philosophy as nostalgic for the classic era of pinball.

  • “I'm always concerned about small companies and reliability because I am not a mechanic... that's my only concern however it looks good.”

    Josh (LoserKid) @ During Spooky assessment — Identifies the persistent tension between design appeal and reliability concerns for boutique manufacturers.

Entities

Joel EngelberthpersonScott LarkinpersonTravis MurraypersonTom GraffpersonJoshpersonScottpersonChris KanedapersonColinpersonWillperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Threats of violence emerged in private messages to Twippies organizers regarding content creator award disputes, specifically threats against Chris Kaneda if he won an award presented by Colin.

    high · Joel's account of private messages suggesting violence: 'stab him when he does give you the award'; cited as direct reason for cancellation of live ceremony.

  • ?

    event_signal: Twippies live ceremony cancelled at Texas Pinball Festival; awards will now be presented online or via pre-recorded segment instead of live event.

    high · Will (This Week in Pinball/Twippies organizer) announced cancellation; voting still planned to occur online starting Monday the 18th.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Twippies restructured award categories, consolidating to 'Favorite Content Creator' category; past award winners made ineligible to reduce repeated wins and perceived unfairness.

    high · New rules exclude previous winners like Kaneda, TNT Amusements, and nap arcade from competing in new unified category.

  • ?

    machine_intel: Spooky Pinball's new Tandem Games feature four-ramp layout with drop target mechanics and subway scoop, described as callback to 1990s Williams/Bally design philosophy.

    high · Multiple hosts analyzing layout: Tom noted interesting shot sequences and scoop mechanic; Josh/Scott praised it as best shooting layout Spooky has created.

  • ?

    product_concern: Boutique manufacturer reliability remains a concern for potential buyers; Josh expressed apprehension about maintenance burden despite positive layout impression.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.340

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Triple Grain Pinball Podcast. This is episode number 46. I am Joel Engelberth with my co-captain, as always, Scott Larkin. Hi, I'm Grant.
0:22
Okay, do our intro now. No? Yeah. You got it? Oh, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, you do ours. Oh, Tom, what do you have to say?
0:38
I know there's always a screw-up at the beginning. There's always a screw-up, and then Joel's like, never mind, I'm starting the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do have a big deal, though. Yes. Right? We have a big deal, though. A big deal package. Oh, wow. We have the last package from Spooky. Big package. Okay. Yes. They sent us a package, and it clearly stated, do not open it until after they release the game. So all the content creators got all these packages. We got ours, too. We had to wait until the podcast, but we got it. I'm excited. I'm excited, too. I want to know what's in the box. What do you guys think it is? Do you want to open it now? Show the box. What do you think it is? Show the box.
1:20
Oh, from Stooky Dead Witches. It even says... With the hearts, yeah, or the witches. Wow. Okay. That's so creepy.
1:30
Especially if it's from, like, Texas Chainsaw. Yeah, I think it's something from Texas Chainsaw. What's in the box? Wait, so when we talk about Spooky, are you saving it for then? Is that your... No, we'll do it right after the intro. No, we're doing it right now. Oh, we're actually playing... I wasn't planning on playing the intro. No. I just thought, you know, out of respect. Oh, that's true. Because this is a crossover episode. Crossover episode. I'm telling you right now, I'm too lazy to mesh. So it's like multiverse. We're both on Triple Drain and Loser Kid at the same time. Yeah. Have you ever watched TV?

“This is probably their best shooting layout they've made so far.”

Scott (LoserKid) @ During Spooky overview — Represents an optimistic view of Spooky's design evolution.

Spooky Luke
person
Bugperson
Keith Elwinperson
Spooky Pinballcompany
Stern Pinballcompany
American Pinballcompany
Chicago Gaming Companycompany
Texas Chainsaw Massacregame
Looney Tunesgame
Twippiesevent
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
IFPAorganization
Triple Drain Pinball Podcastorganization
LoserKidorganization
This Week in Pinballorganization

medium · Josh: 'I'm always concerned about small companies and reliability because I am not a mechanic... that's my only concern however it looks good.'

  • ?

    content_signal: LoserKid recently published in-depth interview with Spooky Luke and Bug about Tandem Games (Episode 126), covering quality control, playfield layout, and art direction.

    high · Josh/Scott promoting their episode released 24 hours prior; noted as comprehensive discussion of new releases.

  • $

    market_signal: Significant disconnect between pinball community size and Twippies voting participation: 2,800 votes in largest category vs. 42,500+ IFPA tournament players and 1M+ manufacturer followers.

    high · Joel and hosts providing comparative statistics to contextualize award show relevance; voting base represents <0.3% of broader community.

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Podcast hosts collectively express skepticism about competitive award shows for content creators; debate whether awards drive toxicity or reflect broader industry trends.

    medium · Multiple hosts noting award shows were not original motivation for podcasting; concern that awards incentivized marketing spend and factional behavior.

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern All Access premium translite product quality issue: signed Keith Elwin Iron Maiden translite arrived unsigned after 2.5 years of storage.

    high · Travis describing discrepancy: ordered signed translite in March 2021, received unsigned version; speculation about where signature went.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spooky Pinball's Tandem Games layout represents deliberate design philosophy callback to classic 1990s Williams/Bally shooting layouts rather than novel mechanical innovations.

    medium · Scott: 'It's a callback to a 90s layout, you know a 90s belly williams layout'; hosts viewing this as nostalgic rather than cutting-edge design approach.

  • ?

    industry_signal: Pinball podcast community increasingly interconnected and collaborative despite award competition; Triple Drain and LoserKid conducting joint crossover episodes and maintaining active communication.

    medium · Joel noting five podcasters maintain 'one of the most active text threads' for collaboration and friendship despite nominal competitive dynamics around awards.

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Texas Pinball Festival/Twippies organizers taking threats seriously and prioritizing organizer and attendee safety by shifting to non-live format.

    high · Joel: 'I wouldn't want to go to one of these award shows and not come home to my kids'; Will making cautious decision to remove in-person gathering.

    • 2:01
    It's just all that means is my whole effort, guys, has finally paid off. The end of 2023. I've tried to get on Loser Kid now for like five years straight, and finally we're just meeting in the middle.
    2:16
    You know, I'm like the little orgy. So you want me to open this now then? Well, here. So what I will say is, this is how good we are at intros. If you're listening to this on the Loser Kid channel, Tom, Travis, and myself, we are Triple Drain. We're Triple Drain. You'll find us on TPN or vice versa. If you're hearing this on the Triple Drain podcast, Loser Kid is on, Scott and Josh with Loser Kid. Same episode, two places. If you really love us, feel free to listen to it in both spots.
    2:44
    But welcome. Hopefully it's a fun episode. We just wanted to team up and chat it up a little bit here at the end of the year, give everybody something fun to listen to over holiday break. So, Travis, please open the box that's quick. What could be in the box?
    2:59
    I think it's the twirly chainsaw guy. Okay. Yeah, leather face. Well, it's not dripping, so I'm not going to say mystery meat. Yeah.
    3:09
    That'd be creepy. Okay, we're going to open it. Oh, it's a piece of paper. Oh, maybe like a dessert. of the play field. Maybe it's a treasure hunt. Sketches? I don't know. Okay. Is it a recipe?
    3:29
    It's Michael Myers flipping off. I thought we weren't talking about Halloween anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a solid bit entirely created by Travis Murray, the one and only, wearing the fake tree sweater.
    3:46
    Yeah, nice. Yeah, man, seriously. So what – Best thing ever. Fantastic. So there's been a lot that's happened over the last few weeks, and one of the comments that I love reading is the fact that the majority of people that podcast only shill. We only speak positivity. And we get money. We get money. And we get money, and we get a lot of cutbacks because clearly what we say impacts sales. So if we help sell games, then, you know, clearly we're all getting checks. I'm quitting my job next week. Yeah. Tom and I are out of medicine. We're done. So, you know, it was comical, at least in the conversation in the background, because we're like, what are you talking about? Like, we don't – Halloween is a perfect example of a game that I'm pretty confident all five of us set our opinions on, and they weren't particularly positive. Oh, you remember Multimorphic Gate? It was like two years ago now. Talking about that, American Pinball has kind of been – GTF, we were all hyped on GTF, and now we're kind of – well, when we talked about Texas afterwards, Texas, we're like, hey, how was that tank? How was that tank on everybody? Well, not even that. Look at Expo. Like, Expo, we walked away from that. I haven't heard a positive thing about Turner Pinball or about Pinball Adventures. I don't know how we're showing for them.
    5:09
    It's the eye of the beholder and the messaging that goes out. I haven't said very positive things about Venom. Oh, I heard Venom is just flying off the shelves thanks to us pinball podcasters.
    5:22
    Okay, so that's why we haven't got our checks, because we're not. Because Venom hasn't sold. You poor people just need to help me sell more Venoms. That's what it is. I mean, I'm such a shill that they took clips of my stream. Stern took clips of my stream and used it as marketing material. Did I get a check? No. I don't get anything. Hey, Travis's Translite wasn't even signed. Oh, yeah. Oh, we already got there. Well, so for the listeners, I don't know if you guys remember this on All Access for Stern. This happened two and a half years ago, March of 2021. They put it out, the Iron Maiden Pro Translite signed by, I guess, Elwin and the team. Right, Scott? Yes. So I'm not memory holding this. No, no, no. And I still have it unopened. So I was surprised when I heard that Travis opened his and found nothing. I was like, it's just the transplant. I'm like, where the F is Keith? It was just Michael Myers flipping you off. That's really up to him. It was Keith Elwin with an Iron Maiden hat flipping you off. Oh, my God, yeah. So I paid over, God knows how much that was at the time, $100 plus? Yeah, it wasn't too crazy, but it was paying for the game room. Yeah, so I've had it in the tube for two and a half years. I was waiting until I got settled in. I was going to put it up. I was all excited, and it's not there. I'm just like, what has happened here? We should probably try to see if Josh and Scott can get it signed by Keith, because I'm pretty confident after our last episode, Keith might just be done. He might be done with us. He might be done with Triple Drain. I know you guys are listening. Please help me get my transplant signed by the team. my pay for it. That's actually why we're doing a double crossover. Yeah, exactly. You know what, Travis? I will sign your Iron Maiden. Thank you. I appreciate it.
    7:13
    Another random side note here. Last episode of Triple Drain was a malfunctioning mess in regards to Travis, which is a normal episode, but it was extremely... I thought it was great. It was a whole other level. And honestly, the silver lining of that is Tom shined. Tom Graff was on his A-plus game. He crushed it. Him and Keith could have just – they were just hitting it off. What people don't realize, Joel, because I didn't realize none of my video came through at the end, that I was sitting there the whole entire backside of the episode. No, I was on the screen with them. They just couldn't hear me because I was so delayed. But I was there, and so instead it's just a static image. It's perfect. It was a good – Hey, Joel, I did everything I could. It's just you waving to us. I went on the roof. I went down the street. I went to the garage. I went to the porch. The only thing Travis saw was at the end of the porthole, them looking down saying, it rubs the lotion on the skin.
    8:16
    I say the reason your guys' numbers are so high, it's because Travis has become a betting game. I don't know if you know this in the background. We've got a pool going. So the people at five minutes or less with El Gato No Signal, you're already out. signal it. That's a pretty big chunk of people leaving or getting knocked out in the first five minutes. Ten minutes is coming up so you know. We'll see what happens. He said he might have finally installed the utility he needs. I think I did it correct. So we will know.
    8:44
    It's 30 minutes. Right at 30 minutes is when it shuts out. That's fine. Well, enough of the backstory of this mess.
    8:53
    Let's talk about another mess. Good transition. Nice, Travis. Look at that. Twippies, Twippies. We were recording this on Friday morning. Will with the Twippies just put out a statement that essentially there will not be a live show at TPF. So there is no live ceremony for Twippies at TPF. I think the plan is they're still going to do it. It's still going to be online voting. I think that voting opens next week. They're still online voting. now how they're going to share those results, whether or not it's a film segment or maybe a live table read stream, kind of like what Zach and Greg did the first two years of the Twippies. Don't know. We'll have to wait and see on that. And then, well, we'll just start with that. So thoughts. I want to give a quick thought on this because I want to preface this too. I don't know why this really hasn't been discussed. I did get permission to talk about this and you guys know about this in the background. So originally, before everything was shut down,
    9:55
    I think this is what fed into the decision as well. There was a private message sent to the TWIP committee, or TWIPPY, because TWIP and TWIPPY are very much separate reading this thing. But there was a message from a private chat about a plan to have Chris win the award, like they were going to strive to have Chris, we're talking about Canaan's Pinball Podcast, asked Chris to win the award and make sure that Colin handed him the award kind of as like, I'm rubbing it in your face. And then one of his followers had said, be careful. I know. Had just said, just stab him when he does give you the award. And so I think that played into this. I think that's another reason, too. Like when then when like it all got shut down, like when the content creator stuff got pushed to the side, I actually didn't hear this from the committee. I had heard from other sources, too. there was then a plan to to hurt Colin coming up and so I think this was part of the reason when they're like you know what we're just not gonna do a live show and and we're just gonna record this because it it just it's getting out of control and and uh that's personally me if you haven't listened to the eclectic glamours podcast their last episode it perfectly articulated all of this um I know that they knew about this in the background they were trying to dance around it without releasing this information. But like I said, I did get permission to talk about this. And so, I don't know. I think this is why we're pulling the plug. It's not because of a particular podcaster or whatnot. It's because there's some crazies out there. I have kids. I wouldn't want to go to one of these award shows and not come home to my kids.
    11:35
    People are just getting riled up. They obviously have nothing better to do at this point. It's just, yeah, it's too much toxicity around it. And I mean, everybody knows how I feel about award shows for us. Like, I think all of us content creators are knuckleheads, except for Tom. Tom's a beauty. But the rest of us, yeah, it's like, I don't know. I've never understood award shows for us. And it's always been odd to me that we're attached to the same thing that manufacturers that are multi-million dollar companies are attached to the same exact award show. But, you know, like I told you guys before, too, like I try to see it from both ways as well, why people are fully into this, then that's perfectly fine for a lot of people. This could be their world championship, you know, and that's, that's perfectly fine too. But yeah, there's definitely a line that gets crossed when you start threatening that type of stuff. That's fully crossing a line and you got to take every, every threat seriously. Like you just, you have to, and that's just, sadly, that's the way the world works today. Yep. Yeah, no, I think the last thing that TPF wants, the Twippies want, really anybody in pinball wants, is an award show where you're trying to celebrate the good or the exciting, the great in pinball, the best of the best in pinball that somehow results in violence or aggression or, you know, some sort of protest or whatever. Well, it's not even that. It's on top of that. It's that the drama outside of it exceeds like the actual award show. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? It's so niched down, too. There's only a small percentage of us that are even aware of the show. There's even a smaller percentage of us that even care about the show, even want to go. You know what I mean? It's niched down so much. So it's like, why go through that headache? Because it's not easy putting on the shows either. You know what I mean? It takes a lot of effort to do that. So it's kind of just weighing your return. Your return on your time. Twippy's actually, like, posted all their results for years now, and they switched from actually how many votes were being published to a percentage thing. But the last time they published votes, there was a total of 2,800 votes for the biggest category. That's total. I mean, that's small and pinball. Yeah. Just giving you a snapshot onto sales, the vast majority of people who buy pinball machines or play pinball machines have no idea that this niche content creator stuff is even possible. Yeah, they don't know. A lot of them just buy stuff. Okay, just think about it this way. How many of you, I'll just pick out a random man. How many of you know Death Leopard or know their songs? OK. Yeah. Everybody. Right. OK. How many of you are members of their fan club and get emails and updates about what the band's doing right now?
    14:33
    I don't know. Very small. Right. And so just think about that in percentage of how many people actually are playing pinball or associated with pinball versus even invested in. And I don't want to undermine because I think it is valuable to say, hey, we recognize in this niche that there is a winner and there's someone who is putting out stuff that is helping the industry or helping our entertainment value. But you need to take that with perspective. Well, and just to put it into perspective, too, we were talking about this behind the scenes. the active the active ifpa players right now so this is if you've played one tournament in the last three years uh it's 42 500 that's just tournament players and if you if you take combined stern american pinball spooky pinball cgc all their followers they have over a million followers combined so really 2800 votes is kind of a drop in the bucket it's it's kind of it's hard to put best content creator label on it when you're getting such a small snapshot of who's actually voting in my well that's true i i'm just i don't want to undermine the award either because i just think it needs to be taken like underplay it or right i don't want to say it doesn't matter at all because it obviously matters to some and some more than others however to to just keep it in i i said this before in the background you know that pickup basketball game where a few people are way more aggressive than they probably should be yeah and where there's a broken nose or an elbow or threats of burning their house down or you know just whatever that's why i put travis on our team when we do those games right right No, but you just need to remember what this is, why it's there, and also social limits on – there's a reason, like Josh says and Travis says, there's a reason why people threat online. And whether or not that is intentional, you have no context. You have no information on how sincere this person is, if they are joking, if they are bonkers. And so you have to realize we need to be at least aware that this is going on. And if you don't think that that actually plays into the psyche of the organizers and the peace of mind and the entertainment value, then you're crazy.
    17:07
    Well, I mean, let's go to the most sane person here, Tom. Can you really can you wrap this up or overall thoughts? I mean, you're pretty ranked. You're ranked real high on the IPA. I mean, if you want to speak for all of them, this doesn't have anything to do with that. Yeah, this is not tournament. Twippy is not tournament pinball. And Travis is ranked higher than me anyways. But honestly, I honestly don't think it was a good idea that they got rid of the nominations.
    17:44
    I mean, me personally. Sorry, my eyes are on my dog right now. Um, but, uh, I, obviously it's caused a lot of drama in the hobby and it's escalating and now the twippies are gone from TPF. So now you're going to watch a show that's not live. So unfortunately, some people are really concerned about a plastic trophy. I mean let's be honest it's a plastic trophy the same people have won it for the last like what seven years let's move on six whatever it is these are important Tom what are you hugging Travis his degenerate trophy this means more to me than anything else yeah your double zero I totally get it And the reality is, I mean, I just don't see the point of – unfortunately, the media awards became a competition, and I don't see the point of that. I mean, none of us started podcasting to compete or claim that we're the best. I mean, honestly, we're doing a joint episode right now, and I hope the numbers come out equal. I mean, there's no – like, I don't – Triple Drain's not better than Loser Kid, Loser Kid. Like, I don't care. It's just – we just want to make sure – Loser kid is better. Go ahead, Joel. Yes. I know you – I know Travis, you really want to be a part of them, but it's just – I mean, but I can't speak for Josh or Scott, but I know I can speak for Joel and Travis. We don't do this for a trophy. We do this because it's something we like to do and it's fun. And we actually have slightly – well, okay, we have different focuses on each of our shows. I mean, you have two – of the three of you, you have two top-level players, and then you also have Travis. Oh, yay!
    19:52
    Got him! Thanks, bazinga. Okay, but Josh and I, we tend to be more of the fan side. We tend to get interviews. We tend to talk about things that are not the weekly things going on in pinball. We try to take a topic and talk about it. And so we have different approaches, but we legitimately, I think we probably have one of the most active text threads that I'm associated with because we are talking all the time because we're friends. The five of us, yes, yes. And that's, I don't know, that's my whole thing is honestly what I would say is if you're a listener, thank you. Thank you first and foremost for being a listener. But if you feel like, hey, you know, these awards are important. These people need to be recognized for their work. Like, you know, honestly, the best thing you can do is shoot us an email or message us on Facebook or, you know, share an episode. Like, hey, I love this. Like, that's plenty. That's plenty of an award if you think we need any sort of recognition. Because I know at least the five of us, we go to shows. Like, to have people come up to us at shows and say, you know, they enjoy the podcast or, you know, thanks for doing it because you make car rides a little shorter. You know, like, that's what it's all about. And sure, I would love all five of us to have a trophy this year for whatever. Best team up. But we don't need it. I mean, I don't know. It's weird. It's just a shame that the last two weeks have gone the way they have. I feel bad for literally everybody involved. You know, you had people like Lucas and Emoto that were pumped, ready to go, ready to present. That live show is now done. You know, Will is obviously making decisions that he thinks are the best. for the community, nobody's wanting to just tear this down. Same with Colin. I mean, and I understand Chris, Kaneda, he's upset. But, you know, when you share that frustration, when you share that anger to the public, hoping that they support you in that anger, you know, it festers and grows, and then all of a sudden that anger can become bigger than you ever thought it would be. And then people will get scared or hurt or intimidated. I mean, I will say I get it from the standpoint of the content creators that do care about an award. I get it because you look behind me. I care about competitive pinball. I play. I work hard at it to try to compete. I travel for it. So I get that. By the way, for people who aren't videoing, the humble brag is Travis just reached over to his gigantic awards. He's got a lot of trophies. But the point being is that there's plenty of people that play in pinball leagues, right, that have a ranking that don't care. Like they don't. They just want to drink beer. They just want to come have fun. And that's essentially what we are to the content creation world. And there's other people that want to try to be the high-level player, that want to try to win everything. And the Twippies is literally their world championship. That is. That's the way that I can make an equivalent of it. So, yeah, it's a couple of things that go against each other, essentially. Right. I mean, it's just like last year. I completely forgot we were even nominated. And then, Joel, you had to come to the tournament room to remind me we were even presenting. Yeah. You know, and you weren't there. Well, exactly. It's like he was competing for another. Right.
    23:16
    Which he thought he could win that one. And Carl messed it up for me, OK? But yeah, that's the point, though. We all enjoy what we enjoy, and we enjoy it for the reasons that we do. So I definitely don't want to take that away. Just because some of us here, maybe all of us, don't give a shit, really, about something else, somebody else may. So I get that part. It's just, to me, there's just better ways to go about it. And I think what's come out is that a lot of people are, they basically make it to where it's about celebrating the hobby, right? It's about celebrating the content creator. So if you're going to do that, I think that the way that they're doing it now is probably the best way to go about it. The only other way you could possibly do it when it comes to nominees and everything is make it a peer nomination. Only your peers that are within that category can nominate like the top five and then let the fans vote or something like that or let the public vote. I think that that's an easier way to do it because then you you end up making it to where it doesn't just come down to popularity. you know and that's i mean it is what a fan vote is but let's face facts it's so niche that if you're playing the infinite game in content creation you've been around for eight to ten years you should be winning everything over somebody else that doesn't have the same resources or if somebody decides to spend five to ten thousand dollars on marketing you should win the little plastic trophy even if you've only been around for six months like that's just the reality of it it's about how you mobilize people well and what yeah to bring that to the point too is like even a couple years back when when super awesome pinball show started to start marketing they you know they use their sponsorships start sending out emails to say hey vote for us and stuff like that people shouted it down because they felt like it wasn't truly winning the award you were using resources so what there's been invisible barriers and lines put up around this like it's just it's a very dramatic thing and it's just kind of stupid and it does come down to what you're all saying what what are you in content creation for what is are you in it for a trophy? Are you in it to further the industry? Are you in it just so your voice can be heard?
    25:23
    Why are you doing this? I will give a little plug, though. At the end of the day, we do support what Colin and Will are doing because there are more positives than negatives, and we would encourage you to go and vote and vote your opinion when voting opens on, I think, the 16th, right? 18th, Monday. 18th, so Monday. Yeah, and there is a new category. There is a new category. It is the favorite content creator. So they just kind of wrapped it all up into one. And then the caveat or caveat to that. Travis, how do you say that word? Because it's going to be wrong. Caveat. There, sure. Okay.
    26:00
    Caveat. Oh, okay. So the favorite content creator, what they're saying is if you've won an award in the past, you're not eligible. So straight down the middle can't win. TNT Amusements can't win. Kaneda can't win. nap arcade can't win um so what what will be interesting there is you know some of those people do crossovers and so or they do other things so they may do a podcast but then they also do a stream so is the stream eligible but the podcast isn't joel's talking about himself well so canada canada does facebook lives i think it's fair could his live win yeah let the let the categories be their own thing like if you do a different show that's a different show could he one. So I'm very curious to see how that pans out. But there is something there. So if you do have a media creator, whatever it is that you want to vote for, graph is spelled G-R-A-F. So Tom, T-O-M, G-R-A-F. I don't know if it's right in. Just find the dropdown. And yeah, we'll make it happen. Oh, Tom's already hitting it. It's eight in the morning. It's nine in the morning, Tom. Let's go, Tom. Okay. He's closer to lunch than we are. It's Mountain Dew for those of us. That means he's ready to talk about Spooky. Yeah, I think we're good. I think we're good on that. We'll wrap up. We'll tie up the bow on Twippy. So, yeah, voting starts Monday. Let's see how that goes.
    27:28
    Spooky Pinball. Let's actually, I'm going to let Josh and Scott introduce this because you guys just recently interviewed him. So, don't worry. Yeah, we released this not even 24 hours ago. Yeah, about 24 hours to the point, like to the mark. Bug and Spooky Luke came on the show to talk about their new releases they released Tandem Games the same layout but entirely different codes and rules and all that stuff they had Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes which is a pretty opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to licensing besides you know they're both violent I guess yeah Warner Brothers has always been on the cartoon comic violent side and going from our interview we kind of try to hit all aspects We talked about quality control we talked about the play field layout we talked about art and the artists that came forward with it So if you haven listened to that one we give you a recommendation You know it 126 is our episode so give that a listen But, yeah, Spooky released two new games. And, honestly, I like the looks of the layout. I think this is probably their best shooting layout they've made so far. Yeah, the layout looks very – it's a callback to a 90s layout, you know a 90s belly williams layout and so if that's what your thing is i would give it a flip i i'm always concerned about small companies and reliability because i am not a i'm not a mechanic i i don't have the kind of time to work on my games and so that's my only concern however it looks good it looks fun and i give it an optimistic review without having heard it yet Remember where Schilling's got. You've got to pump these numbers up so we can get a check from Spooky. Come on now. All right, let's go to the neutral person here. Tom, you don't chill. We know that. Tom is pure. I have no sponsorships.
    29:22
    Tom, throw theme out the window. Throw theme out the window. You're looking at the shots layout. What were your thoughts on toys, Max, all that? But throw theme out. What are your thoughts? Throwing theme out, I thought the shots and Max looked very interesting. thing. I liked them. I like what was presented.
    29:46
    Three ramps. Four. Four ramps. Well, I guess I should look at these stuff before I talk. Isn't it four ramps? Four horsemen?
    29:57
    How many ramps do you think it is, Joel? I thought it was four. I know there's four wire forms, four flippers. I will be the voice of reason. It's four. Go ahead, Tom. Sorry, Spooky. Thank you, referee. I have a lot going on in my life right now. Sorry.
    30:14
    So many women. So little time. Now, yeah, I like how they incorporated some things like the drop targets, the subway behind it, the scoop behind the drop targets. what I didn't like was like the shot goes like right into it from what I saw from the stream. So I thought that was kind of weird.
    30:47
    But other than that, the layout looks interesting. I, I got to play it though, to really get a feel for it.
    30:58
    I did not buy one Joel, cause I know you're going to ask me. No, I will agree with a lot of that. I would say when we saw Halloween and you see the elevators, it's like, okay, what's that going to be about? You see that, how's that going to feel? Or you see Spooky, you see that huge upper play field, you're like, okay, that could be the same with the bookcase kind of flipper. It's like, that could be really cool or it could suck. There was these big question marks. Watching this reveal, I didn't have that. It's like, okay, there's no mech here that I see concerning. It's more of a, I'm excited to give this a shot. Tom has another thought. I can see it. Let's do a comparison. Let's compare this layout to Venom. What are your thoughts?
    31:44
    There's more. There's a lot more. Well, Travis needs to sell Venom. So, Travis, you go first. You compare the two. Sorry, remember, I don't have any sponsors. You want me to compare the two? So I will say this. If I was looking, like, just to answer how Tom got the answer, if I was looking at this as a whitewood, I would be excited to flip it. And I think that's why I told you guys, too, like, this is a dynamic layout that looks interesting. It looks so much better than what they put out before because you see, it's almost like you took Twilight Zone, you took Shadow, you took a little bit of Elwynn, and you just put it all together. You know, you definitely see elements of all three of those games in this. So it's just, I think it just further shows that these are just the more interesting layouts. But at the same time, we do have to accept that when you get more mechs and you make things a little bit more intricate, it does cause issues potentially in the future. So that'll be interesting to see how the games hold up, especially on location or anywhere else. But I like where this is going. It looks interesting. And I'll say straight up, this play field and this design looks way more interesting than what Venom is. And that's just because, to me, when I look at this play field, I don't think the game's going to play easy at all. Like, I'm excited as somebody that wants a challenge. I'm excited to play the game for that reason. With Venom, you know, you get a fan layout. Fan layouts are not difficult to play. They're just not. They're very casual friendly. It's very much flow based. I mean, that's an overused term in pinball at this point, but the shots are just easy. It's where you expect them to be. So something like this that's a little bit more dynamic, that you've got the left ramp closer, you've got two right ramps that are a little bit further back, you've got shots in the back, you have a loop up top, you know, and that's not going to be easy just to do all the time. I mean, sure, in promo videos and stuff like that, you see it going over and over again, but a lot of that depends on the player. It depends on the setup. it depends on a lot of things so yeah when I see this I don't see an easy playing pin and I think that's you can kind of tell with the code too with the way it was I was kind of lost on the road like it's like they went fairly deep but you could tell that they had ball saves in very certain areas out of the scoop out of the captive ball and out of the door those three things so So they've somehow acknowledged that, hey, the ball could become chaotic and drain. They don't want you to end up, you know, losing your ball quickly either. So I don't know. I'm interested to see it. It's almost like I wonder if – so I told you guys before, like, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, it doesn't do anything for me for a theme. Looney Tunes, I think that's a much better theme to go, and it's interesting how spooky is either a horror theme or they're cartoons. cartoons like there's no in between anymore that's what they are at this point and it's clear that i don't know i think the cartoon way to go it's just much better overall in my opinion like i get why they do the horror thing they got to stick with spooky but i i don't know it's just niching down so much it can still be done well but i'm also curious how this type of layout under looney tunes like how are families going to adjust to that because i don't think little little billy's not getting on this pin and ripping shots. It's just not going to happen. It's not as easy as you do, right? No. There's no way. I guarantee this is probably their most difficult playing pin since TNA. When I look at this, I think it'll be more difficult than even Rick and Morty. I mean, the game's designed for you to go horizontal a lot. I mean, and that's what happens. If you go horizontal, you're out of control. Yep. It was difficult to do it. A few small thoughts I had was, you know, when you have a layout, when you have a team like Looney Tunes, you would want it to be kid-friendly, and that's Turtles. Turtles got ripped to shreds for that, that it's like you took a kid's theme and you made a brutal pin. You made a walking dead, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's fine, but I think it was one of us that interviewed Keith, and Keith was talking about his frustration with safe shots, his frustration that there's this need for all games have to be coded for this crazy depth. So if a game's crazy deep, then the layout has to be safe enough for you to be able to experience that depth. If you make a brutal pin, people are pissed. And so a lot of that involves shots that return to the flippers in some sort of safe manner. And that's the one thing that stood out to me on this game is there's four flippers, but every ramp feeds a flipper. So as long as you hit a ramp, it's a safe shot. You are feeding a flipper in some. Well, it's a safe return. Safe return, okay. Most ramps really are safe returns, though. I mean, how many ramps do you know that puts. Oh, you got to see Joel play. He'll bust that really fast. So what is this game right here behind me? Elton John. Elton John, that left ramp, that return does not feed the left flipper. It just, the wire form just stops halfway, and the ball just rolls towards the left. Like a high-speed return or something like that? So it's, you know, to me it's like I like it. I like it because it's somewhat safe. But that's all of Star Wars Episode I, too. Yeah, geez. I was not expecting that. That is uncommon, for sure. But, no, this is that I like the feedback here because I think, you know, good on them for removing the upper play field and actually having a game that looks, I'm not saying it in an insulting way, but it's clearly a game that people want to shoot. There's a lot of shots here. Seeing how it flows together, watching Bugs stream it, you know, he was able to combo a lot of different random shots. And even, you know, the fact that the under the flipper shot feeds an orbit that then feeds another upper flipper. And, you know, the last game that really kind of had this type of flow was like Foo Fighters. You know, Foo Fighters, the way that that really comboed together in different shots and people ate it up. So I think there's a chance that this layout will be very well received from Spooky. But now it comes down to the code. And the code, what's really interesting there, is completely different. Completely different code teams, completely different code packages.
    38:15
    So, you know, if Texas Pinball, well, Texas Chainsaw Massacre ends up being too, like, grotesque for you. Right. Well, is the spooky – like, I wonder if the spooky code will be family-friendly, if it'll be a lot more approachable, a lot more, you know, easy to get into modes or achieve whatever. Family-friendly mode on Texas Chainsaw Massacre? They're an adult – can I turn off adult content? It's just a black screen.
    38:48
    It has screen credits rolling. Just throw a blanket over the game. And the GI just goes pure white. there's no more red and it's I don't know. Josh, what are your thoughts?
    38:59
    I think you guys are all spot on. I don't know. I just I agree that we're just doing spooky and cartoon themes over and over but really that's kind of their niche and no one else is going for it. And they should by the way. They should be going for that. Stop just doing dad rock pins. You can do stuff like this. But the reality is The reality is, too, is... Tom, what's Tom going to buy?
    39:27
    Spooky is one of the consistent top players in the industry, even if you're looking at their numbers and they're not as high as what you think other manufacturers are. I mean, they're more consistently... I mean, Scooby-Doo came out this time last year. I mean, I don't see... CGC is not releasing a game once a year, and American is having the same time. I mean, you've got to give them props to be consistent within their threshold of what they're doing too. Okay, watching the layout, by the way, I have it on loop playing behind me. I'm going to say it, and I think that you will agree with me. If you look at the way the dynamics work, it actually really reminds me of Simpsons.
    40:12
    Simpsons pinball party. Like the shot locations are very similar. And Simpsons isn't an easy game. It's super deep, but it's still consistently one of the games that everybody who comes over to my house, they always start it. So that seems to bode really well, and they seem to have fun doing it. The shots are more challenging, but it doesn't seem to be as much of a drain monster as some other ones.
    40:41
    Yeah, that could be it. Do you think some of it is theme also because they see Simpsons? Yeah. Like, if you get a non-pinball person, they see it. Like, they can identify. A hundred percent. You know what I mean? I've always said theme is king.
    40:56
    Weren't you saying that, hey, there's been an uptake in interest in Led Zeppelin? And we know it's not the layout. Those go like hotcakes. Yeah, it's not the layout. When Stern did the closeout and I saw everybody else closing out, I was like, oh, this is going to be a mistake. And, yeah, they're just selling like crazy for Christmas. and no more is going to be produced. But it's like anything else. Somebody discovers pinball, it's the first time that they've seen the themes. It's not like they've seen it for three or four years. So if you're a big fan of Monopoly, there is a game for you. Yep.
    41:29
    But that's why I do wonder, though, like what this layout would have been under different circumstances away from the themes that they're using. You know what I mean? Because they've been using Warner Brothers themes, right? It seems like that they're going down that path. So what's the major cartoon that's associated with Warner Brothers that was all part of our childhood? You guys got to think a little bit deep, but I think this would be a big theme for – Batman the Animated Series. There you go. Batman the Animated Series. I say Johnny Bravo. No, that's Cartoon Network. Batman the Animated Series. That would be awesome. Imagine if Looney Tunes was that instead. They would have sold 2,000 plus of this easily. I don't know if that theme is easy to get. I have no idea how it works, but to me, that's the cartoon that's staring everybody straight in the face that everybody identifies with, that everybody knows the characters already, but still relevant today. Do you think we're getting superhero fatigue, though? I mean, look at Venom. Is Venom just like its own? Nobody cares about Venom. Venom's a C-list superhero. Yeah, I mean, Batman's up here. Venom is somewhere here. Keep going. You talk superheroes in general. It's like you're basically like Batman, Spider-Man, Superman. Like they're all right there at the top. And I know Travis's view on somebody needs to make a new Spider-Man. Yeah, the multiverse. Absolutely. That would have been so good. I agree. But to me, people have asked me that. I mean, anybody, any content creators, what would be your dream team? And the answer was Turtles. But now that Turtles has happened, Batman the Animated Series. Batman the Animated Series right there at the top. Tom's got his rush. Tom could stop with pinball. He's good. Scott, you got Rush. You guys are good. You know, check the box. I got Rush and Iron Maiden, like the two bands of my childhood. Yeah, you're good to go. Travis, what's your dream team? I mean, I pretty much got them all. I think what's intriguing, be honest, Barbara Streisand, yes, no. Yentl, the pin?
    43:32
    Is that the – If it's the South Park version, I'm all in. South Park, that's right. That makes sense. Make it Streisand. No, it's a good point. It's a really good point. And Spooky's done a really good job with licensing. So, I mean, they know that. They're not making original themes. They know day one it's going to be the license that helps sell their pens. And, honestly, I think I haven't heard specifics or whatnot. I would be very curious. There's 888 Texas Chainsaw Massacres and 888 Looney Tunes. If I had to guess, I bet it's like two to one, like Looney Tunes to Texas, if not even more than that. That would be my guess. They said it was pretty close. When we talked to them, and I know this is a few days ago, it said that I think Looney Tunes just barely was ahead. Do I remember that correctly, Josh? Yeah. Yep. Two days ago when we recorded. Yep. Yeah. And so they actually, I think they nailed being able to say, hey, we got the ultra horror theme for our hardcore fans, but we also have this thing and really Bugs Bunny is a great theme. And maybe it's a little older than your generation because you guys grew up on something else. But my generation, that is like when you're 50, you know, you're pushing that 50 year old category. Bugs Bunny was king. They were by far the best cartoons out there for my generation. Unless you get into like the eighties with, with like Thundercats and GI Joe and whatever. um i would say my last thought at least on spooky is i i think it's smart that they they do the double play field um you know from a part standpoint and everything like that the problem is in my opinion it's always somewhat obvious which game they prioritized uh so in this instance it's clear they designed everything for texas chainsaw massacre and and the big standout for me was the meat grinder the meat grinder is an is a brilliant mech for texas chainsaw massacre but then to just kind of reshell it and put it as a rocket ship the way that screw is still built in the rocket ship it like it bothers me probably grinding yeah it's like no i'm like that's not and then people talk about taz like taz needs to be faster than that so could they have splurged and got a different motor you know like you do the or buy the fast motor and then put a restrictor on it in some way for, you know, like to me, I get it. Those are probably business decisions that I can't make, but that's my only thing that bothers me. I think they made a brilliant move to change the code and to change the inserts. Like they are making them feel more individual pins, but I still feel, they did a good job with the girl popping out of the fridge. Obviously I'm glad it's not like Wiley Coyote popping out of a box. Well, Josh and Scott can correct me if I'm wrong, But didn't they say on your guys' podcast that they pretty much designed these side-by-side? That's what they were claiming. At least that's what they're saying, right? That's what they said. So we got to go – well, Joel, here's the point, though. We got to go off what they say, right? Yeah. But here's the unique thing. Still, though, it's – you look at it – so let's say that they did that side-by-side, right, guys? Yep. And you look at it, it feels like Texas Chainsaw Massacre is very much all in on theme, assets, everything. you don't get that same feeling looking at the play field for Looney Tunes. Like I think that's, and I agree with you, Joel, on that. That's why it feels like things or decisions were made based off what is Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Well, it's clearly, that's the one they're more passionate about. Like we've talked about this before that pinball designers, you know, Stern has turned down themes because they don't have a designer that's in love with it. And it's clear, like Bug has made it very apparent what he is in love with. And it's corny. That's the unique thing about Pinball. There's a lot of people that make things and code things according to what they like. And maybe not necessarily what the end consumer likes. It's unique like that, but I get it. It's hard to do a project if you're not all in because it obviously takes up a lot of your time. But I would be very interested to see what would happen if stuff was done with the end consumer in mind to get the most mass appeal to it. Because I don't know if pinball does that well enough yet. I'm not sure. I mean, each individual would have to answer for themselves why they code a game the way that they do. Why do they design a game the way that they do? Why did they come up with the ideas that they have? You know, because it's something like what I think would be fun for me. I don't know if that would be fun for the end consumer. So it's the same way. Like, I like this layout because I think it's going to be challenging for me. But just like I alluded to, what the hell is little Billy going to do with Looney Tunes when he's getting drained left and right? And even Joel could kick the dog crap out of him. Like, what's going to happen? Little Billy has no chance. I got him. Yeah, little Billy's not going to like Looney Tunes anymore. You've got to put rubber bands on that. Rubber bands. Yeah. So, I mean, that's the thing. I think a lot of times, too, you've got to consider your end consumer and your target audience also in this equation before you go too far deep. And that's not talking about like what Spooky's done. Like I like what they've done, but I think that's just pinball in general, right? Across the board. Like how are you coding the games? Why are you putting the rules in that you are? Like not everybody's going to see wizard modes. Not everybody's going to understand multipliers, you know, the 2X, the 4X times the 16X. You know, it's just, yeah, it's a unique thing. I think it's a unique problem for pinball to have that it's difficult to solve, right? Does it appeal to the masses compared to us knuckleheads that do want to dive deep? Like, how do you find that happy medium?
    49:22
    If there was an easy answer to that, all the games would have it. But it's not – that is something that I – that's how I evaluate a lot of – you know, people give me crap because I say friends and family. But, like, friends and family, that really matters to me, that if a game – if you step up to the game and it's not easily, you know, clear of some objective, it's just you're trying to get these people to fall in love with pinball, And if they can't, like, they can't fall in love with the machine or can't experience the machine, they just, they tune out. And, you know, we don't say anything bad. We don't say anything bad about pinball machines, and we only shill. But Venom, Venom was a game that I couldn't, there was nothing. When I had the game here, I enjoyed the game. My brother enjoyed the game. Every other person that stepped up to that game, there wasn't anything obvious for me to show them that was going to hook them in 30 seconds or less. And, you know, the three games behind me right now, Godzilla, not a problem. You got that big old building, Cactus Canyon. You got Bart. Just shoot the guy in the head. You know, like watch his hat go up. And even Elton John, there's a little alligator on that game and a crocodile. And I was not expecting my three- and five-year-olds to freaking love that alligator. It's a crocodile. And he bounces. It goes back to visual. You put something up the middle, right? or less than 45 degree angles, visually, that's an indicator to somebody that you've got to go that way. Because we are trained through anything that we do straight ahead, right? Movies straight ahead, driving straight ahead, podcasting straight ahead. You know, that's the way we're trained. So you put something there. Yeah, Scott's going to look to the side. But yeah, that's why you put something up the middle, right? It makes so much sense. Think about, like, I tell you guys this all the time. Why is World Cup soccer? It's the easiest shot. Straight up, like up the middle is the easiest shot. The hardest ones are the, you know, you have to wait on the flipper. It takes a little more challenging. Yeah, Josh's phone just fell down. So we're looking at his keyboard here. There it is. Hey, El Gato. Hey, we got our first El Gato. No drop. I don't know why my camera's freaking out. We're at 51 minutes. We're at 51 minutes and Travis's camera's still going. Josh is the new El Gato. I'm the new El Gato. El Dropo. So here's, like, we can compare this, though, with Texas Chainsaw and Looney Tunes, right? So let's say all of our wives want to play a game, right? Like, how many of them are going to choose Texas Chainsaw Massacre? Zero. Yeah, I don't know. I guarantee you if that's that one leg in my house, my wife would just go for it. I've already told Zach that, obviously, I'm happy to stream whatever. But I said, honestly, if Texas Chainsaw Massacre shows up at the house, and I have to stream it, I'll probably have to put the head down. It's in the garage. And put a blanket over it. At any time, like, that's crazy. And, I mean, I think I was going to ask this earlier, but between the two teams, I'm assuming if Spooky reached out to all five of us and they're like, we want to give you a game, what do you want? I'm pretty sure five for five we're all picking Looney Tunes. Yeah. It's just that's where we're at. 100%. I don't want to raise any future serial killers or anything like that. Well, so to their credit, though, the up the middle shot, I mean, it's straight up the shadow sanctum lock is what they did. And that's an awesome, awesome mech, awesome lock. So that magnets, people love magnets. So as long as that, as long as you can get into that door and experience that in like one or two hits, that's a good move. And then the fact that if hopefully locking a ball in the meat grinder or locking a ball in the rocket ship, hopefully that only takes one, maybe two shots to the rocket before the first one happens. That would be smart. Just give us a little taste of the mechs quickly.
    53:16
    It seemed like they took forever on Bugs' stream when he showed it off. It seemed like it was a lot of wood chopping. Yeah, hopefully they can find a balance there. because somebody said it was actually, I think it was Ryan McQuaid, who now works at Sonic Eye and works at American Pinball. He said, what pisses me off is when people hide code behind mechs, or they hide, or maybe it's the other way, they hide mechs behind code. Because when you step up to a game, the thing you notice are the mechs. So it's, how do I get to the upper play field? And if somebody, if to get to the upper play field is six shots, there's a lot of people that are never going to experience that upper play field. Well, your mech needs to be your quote-unquote bozo area. What that means is anybody's going to go after it. If you don't know anything else, you're going to go after it. This is Lord of the Rings Balrog. The Balrog has to come out almost every game because otherwise you're just looking at it as like, why is that even in the game? Sure. Well, that's what's funny too, like going back to Keith Elwin, like his first game was Iron Maiden. Yeah, it's up the middle, like you're hitting the target, but like going on to Jurassic Park like he wasn't ever going to put the dinosaur in there and Gary walked in where he was like no you need to put something like that in there you need the dinosaur the moving dinosaur yep Gary's thing has always been there's got to be some kind of mech there's got to be something that draws to you and it has to be easily accessible by code I don't care if it gets buried in code but like the first three shots or whatever you should be able to activate the cool thing yeah within the first 30 seconds to a minute and i totally understand how um how challenging that has to be for a designer because you know when i look at venom it's i i think what they did is actually really really cool and the mechs that they have in the premium and le to change the entire layout of the play field is really really cool but unfortunately the amount of coils that are needed and the amount of mech that's needed to do that they really don't have i mean doppelganger is the closest thing, but they really don't have that bozo standout mech, and it suffers because of that. And so it's like if people can look past that, the game is there, but for the casual people that are just going to step up, they missed it. And if we look at, you know, like Foo Fighters, it has the overlord area, which is an easily achievable shot for anybody.
    55:42
    But, I mean, there's a lot of other games. Like Led Zeppelin didn't really have anything to grab you. Even, you know, like Avengers Pro didn't really have anything to grab you. The Captain Marvel shot visually looks really cool. But that's a premium. Right. That's my point. And imagine if you design a play field and it was a high-level play field and it was all subways.
    56:09
    Yeah. It's like a bingo game, right? Yeah. Yeah, and it's like, yes, it would take skill to be able to hit the right holes and to actually do it. But pinball is a visual, physical, sensory interaction. So everything goes into it. But we all know that the visual aspect of the ball doing something cool takes precedence over almost everything except for fame Yeah Tom you good at hitting the right holes What are your thoughts on On – Meanwhile, on what we're talking about. On just layouts with mess and trying to – If you wrap it back to spooky, I mean, stuff to draw. Anybody, they step up to this game, what are they going to – Like you guys have been talking about. But, I mean, Venom just doesn't do it. And Spooky kind of, I don't want to say hit a home run, but they hit a triple at least. I mean, I'm comparing the two games and they're out at the same time.
    57:19
    There's no question I would pick Looney Tunes over Venom. Yeah. Well, yeah, you definitely want to have a game that dangles. It's a lay-out. layout. Yeah, that shows you, I mean, there's definitely been games that I've stepped up to put a quarter in or whatever, go to dollar, go to play, and then it's like, crap, I never, like Big Lebowski, you know, it took me two or three games to experience the bowling alley, and, but that, but that's, you know, it's like, what do I have to do? How do I qualify that? Like, that's what I need, that's what, that's what games need to draw you in. So, I think Spooky, they, I'm excited for this layout, I'm excited for what they put in the game. We've seen gameplay on Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It is brutal and disgusting and crazy, but they crushed it. They crushed the theme.
    58:09
    And we'll just have to, I don't know, I think people will enjoy it. If that's a dream team for you, I think they've done a really good job, a ton of assets, a ton of everything. Looney Tunes, we're still kind of a wait and see on that. A big part of that is Eric Pripke. Primke? Pripke? He's the guy. He did Rick and Morty's code. He is currently doing Labyrinth's code. As somebody who's played a lot of Labyrinth, I really, really enjoyed the code on that game. So if – and then Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty is a brutal game. He's doing the whole code on Labyrinth? I think so, or leading it or something, but it's – Have Phil Grimaldi? Phil Grimaldi is doing – it was rules. Like, I thought – I don't think Phil's coding the game, but Eric is the guy coding the game. So I'm just saying if I really enjoyed Rick and Morty, even though it was brutal, I've really enjoyed Labyrinth. So I have faith that I will personally probably really enjoy Looney Tunes, depending on what type of if if Eric continues to do what he does. But that's definitely a wait and see, wait and see situation. So, yeah, I don't know. I would say, yeah, if you haven't heard the Loser Kid podcast, I haven't had a chance to listen to it. It came out yesterday. Definitely give that a shot. But any other thoughts on spooky? Anybody? No. Let's move on to industry. Oh, my one last thought was they powder-coated the ramps. Yeah. I'm very curious to see how that – Okay, powder and clear-coated. Okay. So they actually did bring that up. They said powder and clear-coated. And they even said in their testing they haven't had any issues with that. And they did push their support. They said, if there are issues, we'll send you out a new ramp. Okay. Good. That was, yeah. They did listen and address that concern. Yep. Wonderful. Okay. Anybody ever see problems with ClearCode before? Never. I would, Tom. I'm just saying. At least they're aware. You guys are like, it's a fix. It's a fix. At least they're aware of the criticism, and at least they have a plan if it fails. So good on them. Tom, Tom, we only chill, okay? That's right. Oh, I'm sorry. We're only positive. I will say, I will say, I will say, as probably the only spooky owner here in the building. TNA's right there, baby. Yeah, whatever. I got a game with actual ramps on it. Okay. Oh.
    60:42
    Rick and Morty. Like, the play field is immaculate. The clear code is immaculate. I mean, it's probably the best clear code in the industry by far. Yeah. So hopefully that translates over to the ramps. Yes.
    61:03
    So the TNA I have is an earliest run, and I actually have clear code issues, but they've since solved that. So there's no such thing as a clear code issue. You're just saying that, Joel. Not anymore. But I will say, as podcasters, right, we only shill. We speak positive. But if there is a problem, it's our responsibility to hold the industry accountable. Okay? Because our voice matters. That's how it works. We move the needle. Yeah. Speaking of moving the needle, markets, market. We wanted to just kind of do, and maybe before we get into the sales spot, I think an interesting question, we can go around the circle here because we have about a half hour. Tom has a shoot he's got to go to. His modeling. His photo shoot. Yeah.
    61:48
    It's taking off. Aren't you going to visit your son, right, in college? I'm going to go pick him up. Yeah, being a good dad. Say hi to Neil.
    61:57
    Doug, feed me dinner. Yeah. Yeah, so my question here is, 2023, what was something within pinball that was, like, the biggest surprise to you, if that makes sense?
    62:12
    Kind of quick thought. Oh, I got something. I would say, I'll go ahead and go first, honestly. Yeah, go ahead. Jeez, Tom, settle down. Yeah, sorry to interrupt.
    62:25
    Tom Graff is my biggest surprise. how... Go ahead, Tom. No, go ahead, Joel. I'll have something better to say. My biggest surprise, honestly, is Elton John. Elton John, it's a tie between Elton John and Labyrinth, but Elton John was a game that I... I'm just being a show. But no, I... That game... Maybe my biggest surprise is what I underestimate, is how incredible an art package can just draw you into a game. This was a theme I did not care about, did not care about at all. And the moment I saw this game at Expo, it was like, holy crap. Like, it just sucked you in visually of like, I want to experience this game. And just the whole experience of the art package, the audio, the light show, it's just that game, I've been playing the heck out of that game. And it's not, The layout's fun. The rules are very approachable. But I just think Franchi and J.J.P. crushed it with just the whole audio and visual experience to just suck you in. So, I don't know. That was the biggest surprise. Like, genuine, I had very low expectations and actually really sucked into that game. So, let me sell it. I need my commissions check. Go buy an Elton John. If this game is in your game room, it will stand out. Everybody that's seen it in person will agree. That game legitimately stands out. I would take it, by the way. You are a skilled Joe. Commission check. I'm ready. It's on my short list of games that I am interested in, and I said it at a different price point. But it would be a long-term keeper for me. It is incredibly accessible. Honestly, the code, most JGP games, you fall into a multiball or the code is so complex you can't understand it. This is, there's kind of three main multiballs that you can pursue at any time. There's songs going on in the background. If you care about points, you can focus on wardrobe items. Otherwise, you're really not getting bogged down by a lot of other stuff. It's just kind of a pure do these things and you're going to see more of the game. There's no real modes. It's just songs and, I don't know, just play. That's what I like about it. I'm not overthinking it. You just play. So it's a good – if people are all in on JJP, this game definitely feels different than the other JJPs in your collection, but in a good way. It's very good. So that's my surprise. Tom, Tom is ready. He's locked and loaded, ready for – That was a huge surprise. Thanks, Tom.
    65:07
    Biggest surprise of 2023. Pulp Fiction was announced and shown at Texas Pinball Festival Where are they? That's a surprise? That's the big surprise, yeah Well, they were supposed to be released in quarter three True So you tell me I think we all knew, though We all said when they threw out October I think all of us were like, ha Well, okay, yeah I don't want to take away your surprise, Tom.
    65:44
    I get it. Josh Sharp, right? That's who you – not Josh. You're not surprised that they don't have Pulp Fiction's out yet.
    65:55
    No, because CGC's involved. I would be more surprised if they had it out before TPS of 2024. Yes. apparently they're I think we've heard they are like building assemblies but I don't necessarily maybe they're waiting to start I don't know nobody knows there's more to pinball than just assemblies this is the same company that announced like in 2022 that they were coming out with Cactus Canyon and then at the same time was like by the way we're going to do more Medieval Madness January 2023 and crickets like yep I got a better surprise. Oh, surprise.
    66:41
    Round two. Tom with the double surprise. Alien Ripley edition. Oh, yeah. Okay. That's a good one. I even got Travis's attention on that one. I think that's a good move by Pinball Brothers.
    66:56
    I think it's a great move. They're going to sell more games. For everybody but the distributors that had the original LEs in stock. They are really stuck. They're stuck. Unless they find a way of retro-arting that. I don't even know how to say that. You can buy all the add-ons. I mean, you can still put the code on your old game. You can put the code on the old game. As long as it's a Pinball Brothers game. That's the key. Yeah. You can buy all the add-ons. You can buy all the art. You can buy all the add-ons. But unless Pinball Brothers just gifts those to the distributors and be like, here, give these. I just don't. It sucks that they have games that are technically more expensive than the Ripley edition that have less in them. Like, what do you do? What do you do with that? Welcome to the hobby in 2023, everybody.
    67:44
    Solid surprise. I think Travis is writing something down. I'm just taking notes off the podcast. It's for my memoir that's coming out soon. Oh, God. All four pages. It'll be great. Travis, the man, the myth, the legend. How to podcast with Keith Elwin by Travis. I can't wait. The cover will be blank. It'll got a no signal or like insert cover art is a little.
    68:10
    It's the double zero with Travis staring at you. The life and times of Travis. All every page in the book would be numbered double zero.
    68:20
    All right. Well, we'll get out of triple drain. Scott, what was your biggest surprise? Okay. I have two biggest surprises. so I'm going to cheat a little bit.
    68:32
    One of my biggest surprises was that the Elwyn designed Bond 60 wasn't a better game. And I'll put it as, I think it's a solid game. It's a solid game. It is definitely a vanity piece that you're paying twice to three times what the game really warrants. I played it. I thought it was a lot of fun. But when I look at the price tag and say, I can have two or three games for the price of this, I'm not sure that this is for me. So that was my biggest surprise. Given obvious limitations for having a... I think the theme should have just been the classic, just because it felt... It was a 1960s vibe on the game. It also felt a little bit retrofitted for, yeah, they have the wheels in it, but it's still, I think the, I would have got the same pop by not even having the wheels and just having a screen with the fake wheels like Beatles does. So that was a big surprise to me. I, that was, I anticipated that having a longer lasting effect um the second thing that surprised me we had what was it five five plus games that were announced right around tpf oh yeah and the yeah foo fighters came out of the gate kind of hot but then cooled down to i would say and what i would consider an average game that's not an insult That's just an average game. So of those five games, Foo Fighters was the most successful, which turned out to be more of an average release. So there doesn't seem to be a monster release that came out this year that was obviously this is the game that you need to have long term. this feels very much like a like an in-between year where a lot of stuff happened but nothing that's going to make it into my collection for long term interesting yeah no i know people talked about 2021 that way that it was just kind of a there was no standout and then 20 was it 2022 no it's the other way around 2021 was godzilla it was just obvious and then 2022 was kind of a huh you know who's and i i mean i see what you're saying because honestly this year the um you know twippy like pin of the year i don't know i genuinely don't know there's no um it'll probably be poo fighters just because stern's the biggest there's probably the most out there it's the game most people have played but i get it i i yeah i see what you're yeah those are solid um Solid surprises. Yeah.
    71:24
    Josh, what surprised you? Scott stole mine with Texas Pinball Festival and the releases, you jerk. Nope. I actually did have another. I think the biggest surprise was seeing Barrels of Fun come out of left field with Labyrinth and the response to it and the professionalism around that game for a first release. It's outside of probably Wizard of Oz, which I wasn't in the hobby when that released, So I can't really attest to that. But this has got to be the best, like, first game ever shown by a pinball company. And I've seen a handful of pinball companies start up in the last decade. Well, it's almost like a two-part thing. It's barrels of fun is a really big surprise. The team that's there, the people that are involved, the way they've handled themselves, the communication, being, you know, outside things, getting involved with, you know, tested that YouTube video with a gazillion views. Like David Van Ness being super responsive on Pinside. It's just like that company coming out of nowhere. Nobody knew it was coming. And then they've been, they've done everything right. And then the second part of that is Labyrinth. Like Labyrinth is actually for a first game is really, really good. The layout's good. The art is awesome. They got good toys. The build quality is, I mean, I've had one here. I did not lift the play field one time that I had it here. and that game was a show game. That was a game that already had hundreds and hundreds of plays from Chicago Pinball Festival. Didn't lift the play field one time. So there's, yes, that's a very, I will agree with that. You can send your check to Joel at. Oh, David knows. I mean, he's already sent me. I mean, I streamed his game, you know, three times. So that's at least, you know, so much. Partial ownership in the company now, right? Yeah. I passed the stock. I just won stock. I just won stock in the company. Okay, the little known fact is that Joel's actually one of the heads of the trolls on the topper.
    73:23
    Yep, yep, yep. Makes sense. This is true. All right. No, that's good. That's a good, that's a solid surprise.
    73:33
    All right, Travis. Surprises. All right. I got a surprise that I think you guys will all agree with. Kind of is a big surprise, but then kind of not when you really think about it. I would say the amount of times that Stern keeps re-releasing games, including games that are last call. Yeah. Like, that's surprising. Such as, like, Stranger Things wasn't last call, but there wasn't many that was sold back in, like, late 2019, early 2020. I think there was less than, like, 600, 700 premiums that even went out. Now they're all coming back.
    74:08
    I think Guardians of the Galaxy, the last call came out for that for over a year ago. And then they had a second last call for it. And then in August, they said that Iron Maiden was last call. And now there's actually a build date in 2024 for it. So that's not last call. And then on top of that, you know, coming out with these anniversary editions with Elvira, with Jurassic Park. It's almost like they're killing the elite market.
    74:39
    That's surprising. Like they've done different editions, of course. You know, I mean, there's a 40th for Elvira. But I think it's just surprising seeing all that come all at once, it feels like. Like it's happening in avalanche in the past six months, it feels like, more than the first two quarters of the year. It feels like it's all been on the back end of 2023. It's kind of – I don't know if it's throwing the market into total chaos just yet, but that's interesting. And then the bigger surprise, too, with that is closing out games. I was very surprised by that. Was not expecting that at all. You're saying selling games, selling those Turtles. Like closeout, like waiving MSRP. Rush shocked me. Yeah, Rush shocked me as well. That was still a – okay, I understand the theme is for Tom and me and probably about 50 other dudes.
    75:34
    But it's more than that. Dozens of you. Dozens. Game of the Year, so that's why. It did win 2000 carats. Speaking of Twippy, it did win Game of the Year last year, and it was a very solid effort, and the code was great. The layout was still good. It was challenging, but it was good. But it really shocked me that they, man, I don't know who ran more, the original Stranger Things run or Rush run.
    76:03
    Oh. because it would have to be rush I would think yeah however I don't feel it was a better receptive game and considering that it's not like it came dead on arrival the reception was out of proportion with the theme and so I was pleasantly surprised that it was a great game and a theme for me but they didn't keep running it and that surprised me it kept getting relegated behind Elwynn's next rebuild yeah no supply and demand i guess well absolutely i think what's interesting i mean travis you're saying the fact that you know some of these games are still making them i i think part of that though is you know a lot of the games that are currently available are all in stock like so many distributors have so many games in stock so it's surprising that it's like there's already a good list of options but guess what stern's gonna make old games again too so let's add to those options. And that's going to be tough from a distributor standpoint, because now you have, we've talked about dynamic pricing before, how there isn't any. So it's like, you've got just this banger of a pin, like a Godzilla or a Jurassic park. And that's having to go up against whether it's rush turtles or venom, you know, like, well, how do you, or I remember when they announced venom, there were still LEs. There still are LEs in, in distributors hands. So distributors are holding on to these events. There's still a lot of LEs. Yes. I stared at them just the other day. There's a lot. Yeah. Are you trying to intimidate them? You know, get out of here? No, I'm trying to convince people they need to start buying it because daddy needs a new car. You said, I remember it came out, that it was like the day that Jurassic Park 30th Edition came out. You're like, what? Like, that game is beloved. and it's an LE, a second version of an LE, all the bells and whistles, all the prettiness, and it's the same exact price as a Venom LE that's sitting here. And Elvira. I told you guys immediately, Venom is DOA. Like, that's it. That's it. And we've had that before. Like, I've shown people pins in our showroom and people that are brand new to pinball and they look at Godzilla and they're like, why is this so much different than the other ones? Like, they can tell. you know and people people aren't dumb with their with their eyes like we talked about they can tell what looks interesting to them you know so i'm done with their eyes but but what i'm saying yeah i know i know yeah especially if they look at tom they're not done with their eyes they're doing the right thing look at tom oh boy but yeah that's that's my biggest surprise it's the Constant releases and combined with the closeout. Like, I was shocked that Star Wars, the pin, got a closeout price because it's Star Wars. It's still selling, actually. Oh, my God. Yeah. Like, we, yeah. I mean, I can't get into specifics, but I'll just say from my end, I'm very surprised that a lot of the, the only one I'm not surprised of is Ninja Turtles. Like, when I see that, I'm like, okay, that makes sense. for a rock pin though like I will say that what I have enjoyed is the fact that the price of Turtles has come down I've actually had people reach out to me that finally pulled the trigger on one and they like it they're like this game's hard you understand it's hard but like the code is good it is a fun game it is a once you get in the house instead of going on to a bar and losing a dollar quickly and being like screw this game Now it's in your house. Now it's time to dive in, figure out the shots. It's actually a very fun game. So I do think more people are experiencing it now that they're on, like, clearance.
    79:56
    But, Tom, do you still have your Turtles or do you sell it? Yeah, I still have it. See? It's a good game. I don't know.
    80:04
    I'm glad it's being talked about or people are playing it now, maybe even for the first time. Okay. At least you're finding a bright side in the closeout pricing. Okay. I do have a follow-up, though. Yeah. Considering we have had another year of sales in pinball and a year ago, you were still having a hard time finding games.
    80:24
    Does it surprise you that now if you want a game, it's available? If you want a game at a discount, it's probably available. Does that surprise you that in a year things turn so quickly? And what does that say to the overall health of the industry?
    80:44
    I know Travis could talk about this a long time. This is what he thinks about all day. I think it comes down to how much do I want to say publicly to give away all the talk. So that's why I just throw it out. I mean, this is obviously Travis's day job. This is our hobby. It's Travis's day job, too. But we can all have a gut feel about how the market has changed in the last year. And we can talk freely about it, but I'll take the first lead on this. It surprises me at how quickly it changed. It didn't – it seemed like over about six months we went from got to get a game, got to get a game to, you know what, hold. You can wait, and maybe if you hold off, you can get it. So this makes me concerned about the overall state of the industry because if buyers who used to be historically have been LE and premium buyers, which I would argue that Tom and I have been in that category. Tom, actually, I see a lot of LEs behind him. That's what I got. Yeah. Yeah, if we – man, humble brag.
    81:59
    If I have started shrinking back and saying, you know what? I used to be an LE. I'm probably more of a premium buyer, and maybe I'm a premium used buyer now. You are eroding the people who are willing to buy a game. This is the car market, right? You're eroding the people who are willing to buy a car. take the hit because that's how the industry works. You shouldn't be able to sell, use things for more than new in box things because that tells me a margin is left on the table.
    82:32
    But if there is a segment of the population who are eroding, and I know I'm a small segment, but is that enough to concern the industry because it is a supply and demand market? And if the supply is way outstripping what demand is, then does that have a ripple effect back toward manufacturers, back toward their ability to, they built these huge manufacturing facilities, and do they have to pump the brakes on what their facilities are because they're putting out too much? They still have overhead. They still have standards. They still have to pay the electrical bill every month. They still have to pay the rent every month. and what does that do for the next one, two years of the market? Because I'm concerned. I'm concerned that we are going to see some companies and probably some dealerships that are going to be in crisis and are not going to be able to meet their overhead and may have to close doors.
    83:35
    I would say that that's pretty much spot on. I mean, I've been telling you guys, and I know in our Triple Drain chat, I've been saying it since, what, summer of 2022? Like, you can see it coming. And that just comes from looking at the analytics, seeing what people are searching for, seeing what the consumer habits are. You could see it coming at some point because, obviously, raw materials and everything catches up. I think what's going on with pinball is that there is something that's foundationally broken for the end consumer. Like, it's obvious it's there. And there's a lot of variables that are going into that. That's both on the manufacturers, it's on the dealers, and it's on consumers. I think it's very much, it's like a whole Venn diagram of everything happening at once. And I think it's a cumulative thing. It's not just like one single thing that why it's happening. It had to build a lot over time. And I think it just goes back to like you're talking about LE, Scott, right? And I know, Tom, you've discussed LEs too. So it's kind of like I think what pinball has really kind of lost out on recently is that their core offer, which always should be the LE in general to help push all of the products I think they kind of lost it with that They kind of lost the narrative with that being their core offer such as understanding how to increase demand. Like it's not just the supply and demand. You have to know how to increase the demand for your product. And that goes with just like why is it valuable to somebody, right? You have to have a perceived value. And when you look at it, when it comes to LEs, you got three different types of people, right? You got the ones that are going to be all in on every LE. You got those that are going to be on the fence about an LE. You got those that are completely out, right? So number three doesn't even matter. But how do you get number two back in? How do you get people to stop filtering from number one to number two? They were always buying every LE and now they're just on the fence. That's what's happened. So your core offer always has to come down to increasing demand and then controlling supply. That's what you have to do. So I think, obviously, if we go back down to 500, I think things kind of ride at ship a little bit. But we're very much dealing with an industry that is entirely built around price sensitivity. It's all about finding the lowest possible price for a premium product, find the free shipping, find it tax-free, and you keep doing that for a premium product over and over and over again, guess what happens when you have to hike up the price? You get pushback. And those people are out. If they're buying a product, if their whole entire value prop for a product is pricing, you're going to lose long term. That's just what's going to happen. It's just like the pros and premiums. They didn't even keep up with inflation from what the prices were in 2015, 2016. And the industry has no idea that that even happened. They still look at the premiums and they think it's too much. It's actually premiums should be closer to $10,000. God's honest truth. Pros should be closer to $7,800. And people don't realize that that's where the material is at. So it's like, how do you come back from that? And I don't know. I don't know if it's possible because you have to sell out the LEs, right, to make your pros and premiums even more desirable for people, right? the people that are on the fence about it that weren't going to get the LE anyways, what happens psychologically if you see that the LE is sold out? They won.
    87:12
    Like it's a frenzy, right? Everybody starts talking about it. And we're not seeing that, right? So we have no way to extend out the lifetime of these products anymore without that. We severely need that. I would – no, that's all really well said. What I – yeah, what I will say is from a distributor standpoint, or not a distributor from a, from a manufacturer standpoint, you obviously need to push the value of what you're doing. Um, not once again to shill to Ching, um, Elton John, what, what I am seeing here is like, this has everything. It has rad cows. It has art blades. It has a topper. It's all installed. It's all there. It's all ready to go. So I understand $12,000 is a lot of money, but at least I feel like it's there. And that's something that when you barrels of fun did this really well for that game to be fully loaded speaker lights, everything it's like, okay, I'm getting value or feel like I'm getting value. Spooky does it too. So we've talked before. It would be awesome if Stern stepped up the LE a little bit, made it not only do less of them but also put more in it, make it a little more something. But then the price goes up. Yeah, hopefully they can dance around. I don't know. But then distributors, what can a distributor do? That's where it sucks. When you're talking about trickling up, you know, previously Stern, they were selling all their games to all the distributors. They didn't care. All distributors, gimme, gimme, gimme, go, go, go. Well, now all of a sudden there is pushback from distributors like, I can't, I can't take it. I cannot take any more. That's where we're at now. So how do we help out the distributors? I see how Stern would do the clearance sales or allow there to be clearance sales to help distributors. I don't know that answer. Hopefully they can find out a way to appease. But the reality is there's a ton of distributors out there. Some of them, this was a hobby. This was a way that they could enjoy it, make a little money on the side. not so much anymore. So, unfortunately, they might not be around anymore. Well, not only that, if you take that into it, that's where you end up in a situation to where a lot of people are flipping games, and it's not flipping games for above MSRP. It's not. Like, if you go on any marketplace and you see the serial number blacked out or not available, that's a game that's most likely getting flipped. And, I mean, I know that kind of got out on some of the groups to where somebody was saying like CERN made them stop and stuff like that. And, yeah, if somebody is reselling games over and over and over again, it hurts the ecosystem of that area. Not only that, it drives down pricing like crazy. It's not healthy for an industry. How crazy is it? Because you pointed this out to us the other day. What was it, like a week or two ago? Some guy had openly admitted on a comment section in CERN's Facebook, On their Facebook saying, he's like, yeah, I pretty much, I resell and flip from distributors, and I had to cancel so many orders because I can't flip them now or something like that. And it's like, you have a guy admitting he's breaking that up. You know what I'm saying?
    90:08
    Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, we've talked about that, too. When you see somebody post, like, oh, I bought this game for a friend, and now they don't want it. And it's like, here's the box, not opened, you know, crossed out. Like, I get, I mean, that happens. It's distributors buying games. reselling them at prices they shouldn't to somebody else so that they can legally resell because it's their game now. However, it's just it is what it is. So, but it's kind of, I don't know, I would say as a pinball fan, what can we do? Not talking to Travis, this is his job. But what can we do? We can buy the games we want to buy. It is interesting. you know when I got into the hobby Turtles shortly after that came out and to me I was like why would you ever buy a new in box game and you can get them cheaper used but the reality was a dream thing came out I wanted it and I wanted it as soon as possible so I actually splurged and bought it new in box and at the time I knew I could always resell it and lose a little bit of money we're kind of back at that point unfortunately some games you're losing a lot more money than you want but luckily you can trade stuff. Like I know, Tom, you just recently traded away your Godfather, you know, stuff like that. Goodbye, Godfather.
    91:21
    Yep, and it's crazy you got James Bond. I gave you it sold previously, but, like, that game has come along so much. But I got the premium version. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I have two friends who they both that we have pretty big collections and we're all within a few miles of each other. and both of them bought, one of them bought Bond 60 didn't like it, sold it bought Bond LE, didn't like it sold it for Foo Fighters then sold Foo Fighters to get the Bond LE back yeah, code man and because the code has really come along and that does make it a reality check, how much is a night out with your family, your friends how much is that typically? When you factor in food, travel, all that kind of stuff, I'm guessing you're probably looking at $50 to $100. Oh, more than that. Okay. Maybe soul. Okay, but maybe soul. If I'm just hanging out with my buddy, what I'm bringing to the table.
    92:30
    I'm talking like a decent... Okay, it takes my family $60 if we even go through a McDonald's drive-thru. okay yeah and so for us to say well okay a night out with friends to a location we're looking at food if you're drinking you're looking at drinks you're looking at uh all that kind of stuff you're looking at easily dropping 50 to 100 bucks and if you can't get into your mind hey if i buy a game and have it in my home and even take a 500 loss from what i paid for it down there that's still roughly five to ten evenings out with a friend and if you get the same sort of level of enjoyment then that's that's actually money ahead in my bank account so I lost a lot more than 500 on God okay now are you okay that was a Ferrari as we know okay so but how do you Tom how do you feel about that like so you lost you lost a decent chunk of money on godfather are you like there's a lot of other games where i'm way ahead joel yeah so exactly so you're not like at least at this point in time but do you have any like ill will towards jjp or like no reservation to buy another game like yeah maybe some i mean maybe a little bit i mean i don't i don't want to keep buying games and take a $4,000 loss. I think it really comes down to how quickly... With the atmosphere, just like we talked about, when you train the majority of consumers to be price sensitive,
    94:11
    it's damn near impossible to have an expensive premium product last a long time in those conditions.
    94:18
    I understand the games are going to... You buy a new in-box game, you're going to lose some value. like Scott was saying $500, $1,000 maybe even $1,500 but if you're talking like $3,000 to $4,000 that's a bigger deal that's like a pretty damn good Bailey Williams game maybe a B title that's an F14 right there exactly so you're talking about a whole pinball machine. Well, you know, I can afford that loss. Yeah. I don't know if everybody in pinball can. Well, Tom's hit the nail on the head right here. Think about it, guys. If we get back to what a core offer is for a product, right, increase the demand for it. So if you don't have an extreme amount of demand for a game that's already expensive, what's going to happen to that price very quickly?
    95:21
    Yep. It's going to bottom out fast. And if that keeps happening to people that are always in at the beginning and they start to get tension and friction and they're not wanting to keep losing that much money, what are they going to do? They're going to stop buying new in-box. The whole thing comes to a screeching halt. Yeah. Like you're saying, Travis, maybe the numbers of LEs need to be dramatically. Yeah, you have to change something. And a lot of it is, too, is who are selling these games? are you trying to sell just on Facebook a $12,000 to $15,000 product?
    95:57
    Yeah. Like are you marketing it to as many people as possible that are searching you on Yahoo, Google, YouTube, wherever you could? Did you use Yahoo as a search? Yeah. Okay. Hey, Google.
    96:08
    How about your AOL keyword? What's that? Okay. So if you have – okay, here's just quick business 101, right? Right. If you are not readily accessible on a Google search result in the top 10, when random guy, girl, hops in, types in pinball sales or buy a pinball machine, if you're not top 10, then you have a very niche market. And you are definitely in the mom and pop, this small potatoes category. And if you are wholly relying on a single avenue to market or sell your product, then you should be very concerned. A quick analogy. Right now, there's been a lot of stories about Disney kicking out people who are third-party hosts. So people want to go to Disney World. They don't want to spend the $500 an hour that Disney charges to have one of their hosts take them around. And so there have been these third-party hosts that have kind of in that gray market, the blacked-out serial number market. I should have thought of that. Yeah, where they get hired out, and they go for like $150 an hour or something like that. and there's been a big news story lately that they have gone and they've tried to badge in their annual pass and they get you know blue circled which means hey there's something wrong and they basically flagged them for trespassing and kicked them out of the park wow yeah and so this has been a this has been a big news story because a lot of people all of their eggs are in that basket that is all they do that disney is their life and they want to just go and host and Hey, if they can make $1,000, $1,500 in a day, go gathering people around, fine. But once Disney looked at that and said, yeah, we're not letting you do that anymore, what are they going to do? They can't just say, hey, we're going to do the same thing for Knott's Berry Farm for six flags. It's just not going to happen. So this is my long way of saying if the only way you're selling a premium product is on Facebook, you should be very concerned about your business. yeah I was that's a really good point that's crazy about Disney too that's crazy but just because all I'm talking about is Elton John what I think is interesting is this game is not selling right now but is it because people think J.J.P. you buy it immediately the moment you buy a J.J.P. game you're out two grand is this going to be the hottest used pinball machine as soon as people go to sell this Are there people that are like, I'm in when I get a used one for two grand less? Possibly, but look at, I mean, yeah, maybe you're doing like the pirate scenario where, you know, these things are 20 grand or whatever. Yeah. But look at Godfather. I mean, Godfather didn't sell that great, to my knowledge.
    99:23
    Toy Story. Yeah, Toy Story. J.J.P., the number one thing is price. It's the perception of – It's basically if you're comparing their version – and I know they have bells and whistles, and they probably have a little bit more build material than maybe a Stern. However, for the end user, the perceived value for an LE or Platinum or whatever it's going to be, let's just say the Platinum version of a J.J.P. game, The equivalency is the premium version of a stern. And so people are going to equate those prices. And unless there's something that takes you beyond the premium version and whether or not that's fun, quality, whatever, then people are going to generally go to the lowest price point. And you have to say the best option right now with JJP is probably Elton John. It's probably Elton John. That's probably their best game right now. And you add, okay, should I get that or should I get a Godzilla, which is the best offer with Stern? Yeah. I'll add something to that. Okay, go ahead. You know, just also availability of getting the game. Sure. Yeah. Because J.J.P., I mean, they're good at getting games out the door, but they don't do it like Stern. I mean, Stern gets them out quick. Yeah. So that's another thing. Well, to tag onto that, I have a buddy here locally that he has been on, he's been in on Scooby-Doo since day one, but he didn't get the Bloodsucker edition. He got the Standard edition. So he's at the end of the line. One of five. Yeah, he's at the end of the line. And he, here he is, he hasn't, like, what I, I feel so bad for him because he, any time over the last probably six plus months, he could have gotten a used Scooby-Doo Bloodsuckers edition for cheaper than what he is prepared to pay for for his standard edition. Right. But he's trying to be like a loyal person. Like I said, I was going to buy it. I'm going to buy it. But when you have games like this, it's just what do you do? Don't do it. Like I would tell anybody out there, as somebody that sells games, don't be loyal to something that costs you money in that way. You know what I mean? because we're all here to make a profit. Like, yeah, I love pinball and all that, but we have to sell, right? To stay in business? I'm going to love pinball while being unemployed. So it just doesn't work like that. So I would always recommend to everybody out there, like don't feel a sense of loyalty to anything other than your family. Like do what's right for you. Don't feel forced to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars. If it ain't right, it ain't right. Don't be afraid to walk away. I mean, that's the main thing. And I say this as somebody that sells these things. Like, I don't want anybody to ever feel pressured that just because they do have a non-refundable deposit that there's just no way out, you know, and they got to buy this pen. Or, like, I've heard of people taking on a bunch of pens, like, in debt with credit cards that are 15%, 20% interest. It's like, wow, you know, it's like, let's keep this under control. You don't have to be forced to do anything. Don't put yourself in the poorhouse. Right, exactly. Well, Joel, you do touch base, though, on what gets dangerous. for these things. And that's where, you know, it's tough for Spooky that it's obvious that they want everybody to funnel up to the CE, right? You can look on their website and you get that feeling when you see what the cabinets look like for both, you know, TCM and for Looney Tunes. It doesn't look anywhere near what the CE is for the Bloodsucker and for the Standard. And plus, you're all the way on the back of the end of the line, right? So they're obviously wanting to funnel everybody up there. So that's just, it's interesting to see the different types of companies, how they go about getting people to buy their top-of-the-line product and buy a lot of it. Because I think we just see vast differences from how JJP does it, how Spooky does it, and how Stern does it. They're three incredibly different companies. Spooky probably should have mixed that up a little bit. That's why Stern does a little bit of a get the pros out there, get them quickly, get them out, then do LEs. But they started mixing them up and doing like a little bit of pros, a little bit of L.E.s, a little bit of premiums. And so they are catering to all the market because it's one thing having the product available versus, okay, you can get the awesome thing two years down the line. It basically is unavailable. Let's make it unavailable. but we're also trying to compare strategies between staring a mass manufacturer of pinball versus Spooky who's literally a boutique pinball company that's in the name boutique you can't call Spooky a boutique anymore I'm sorry I mean they're putting out as many games as JJP is they're putting out a lot they're doing well I mean I'm just saying, compared to Stern, it's hard to say. Oh, of course. Well, you could say the same thing about American or JJP. CGC. CGC probably makes the least of all those. Stern's a giant, man. I mean.
    104:52
    Well, they do it right, releasing their pros when they do. Because you see all the launch parties, that's very, like, strategic marketing. Get it on location. Advertise it. Get as many people playing the game and talking about it. Badges. Yeah. Well, I think I would go ahead, Josh. I was just going to say, I think to wrap it all up with what you guys are saying is like, it's going to be an interesting going interesting. You're going into 2024 because of, because of everything that we've talked about, like we're, we're a premium luxury item yet. We have, you know, basement bargain buyers trying to drive down the price as much as they can so they can get it on clearance and it's a really weird dynamic and it seems like the manufacturers are feeding into that with closeout deals and stuff like that and just not positioning themselves right going into a few like and it's really weird to me too because like stern has been doing this for 30 plus years now like they've been through the ups and the downs of all this i mean 2000s almost closed their door but like we're kind of back to that point of like what is 2024 going to bring market-wise when we have so many that are refusing to buy now because, you know, they're just ripping us off versus, you know, that's, I'm just sorry, I'm saying that as, I'm not saying that as loser kid. I'm saying that as like, that's the comments I read online. You're projecting what the buyer's saying in their mind. Correct. And so it's just a really, we've created a really weird environment going forward for pinball. and it's going to be interesting to see who sustains and who ends up having to close the door, not only distributors and dealers, but if manufacturers can even weather this. And I already see that some of them really can't. I'm not going to start pointing fingers. We don't have time for that. Sure. I mean, I will say 2023, it's been a fun year. It's been a good year. There's been a lot of pinball, a lot of pinball that's been put out in 2023. I do think all the companies are kind of pushing each other to be the best that they can. Are all these companies still going to be around in 2024, at the end of 2024? I don't know. But are all the distributors still going to be around? I don't know. But as somebody who's really into pinball and loves pinball, luckily there's a lot of games out there that you can buy. You've got a lot of different options. You can buy them new. You can buy them used.
    107:10
    It's still there. Where would you buy those games at, Joel? Who's paying me? I don't know. This is where you can say flipping up and out. Oh, flipping up pinball. Yeah, I mean, geez, what a football coach. I literally lobbed him a ball. And he misses. He just looks at me. He's like, I don't know if I'm going to say it. Loser Kid is sponsored by Flippin' Out Pinball. There we go.
    107:35
    The Loser Kid portion is brought to you by Flippin' Out Pinball. Contact Zach and Nicole many at Flippin' Out Pinball. Bye-bye-bye. But I'm just saying if part of this hobby, though, is a thought of I do this and I get to make money while I do it, you might need to readdress that. Never buy a pinball machine expecting for it to hold value.
    108:01
    That's what I would recommend to anybody, even if you buy an LE. If you bought a pinball machine from somebody and they've told you, yeah, this will hold its value for you, I wouldn't trust it. And it's not to say it can't. There's certain variables where it can. But don't have that be your driver because guess what happens there again? You're so price focused. You want to buy low. You want to sell high. You want to go back and forth. Like it's meant to be a toy for adults. That's not a triple X adult toy, except for Tom probably at some point. Tom's a toy? But still, you know, it's a toy for us to play with. And so it should be played. And I get it. There's people that buy the LEs. It's an art thing. It's a flex thing. and it stays in their man cave and all that. And we've seen that tons of times. But when you look at premiums, you look at pros, you look at everything else, like just buy them to play, have fun, and buy it when the time's right for you. The time's right for you is to buy new in box. And you happen to be the type of buyer that needs free shipping. There's companies out there for you. You're the type of buyer that wants to wait until it's used. Yeah, there's plenty of opportunities out there too. If you're the type of buyer that just needs it immediately, no matter what, yeah, there's dealers out there for you with that also. I mean, that's the beauty of it. I think another thing, too, is we need to keep in mind, like, the sky is not always falling. Like, I think a great example of this is Bond. Bond had to have been, like, one of the roughest out-of-the-gate releases. But almost a year later, it's being received very well. People are loving it, and people are loving where the coat has went. But it took about a year for us to get to that point.
    109:34
    I get you. Well, we're approaching the two-hour mark. This is super long for you guys. I know Loser Kid, you guys are really good at that one. What I love is the feedback that we get at Triple Drain. Some people are like, can you make a longer podcast? They're dead serious. We have four hours. And then there's other people that are like, I can't. Whatever. So it is what it is. Let's go ahead and plug it up. Scott and Josh, if you want to go for it, plug away. We are LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. If you want to get a hold of us, you can get a hold of us there or on Facebook, Twitter, Twitch. Sorry, X. whatever else, YouTube, hit us up at Loser Kid Pinball. Leave us a comment. We've received a lot of great positive comments out of all the shenanigans these last two weeks. There has been a couple negatives, but I want you to understand it's like a 10 to 1. And so, there's a lot of people that want to speak their mind, but they just can't, I guess, or they don't want to.
    110:35
    Anywho, the point being is, if you want to hit us up, that's the way to hit us up. Be safe, be positive. Thanks. No stabbing anyone.
    110:45
    Travis, plug away. My camera worked the whole entire time. You did it, guys. Who had that for full show? Oh, I have no one here. Wow, we all lost. Actually, Josh, you lost because your camera fell. Imagine how Elwin feels right now. Yeah.
    111:03
    That's what it took. It took getting one of the greatest pinball designers of all time on our podcast and Travis just falling apart for him to step up his game and figure out how to actually use this. You know what? He actually said, get behind me, boys. I got this. Yeah. All right. Is that your plug? Oh, yeah. Listen to us on Triple Drain Pinball Podcast, too. That's actually a valid plug, though, because people are hearing this on Loser Kid. Yeah. And Loser Kid. Listen to Loser Kid Podcast. and come over to my neck of the woods, YouTube, the pinball company. Just watch some stuff on there. I'm not going to sell you anything. Just watch the videos. You guys will get me a Christmas bonus or something like that.
    111:43
    Wonderful. Tom, plug. Fox Cities pinball. I like it. Okay, and what does Fox Cities do? We stream pinball. Okay, teach you how to play.
    111:56
    It's a lot of tournament streams. He does it incredibly well. Tom's way too humble. If you want to watch Good Keepers. 500 hours the last year. 600. 600, Tom. I didn't say I even forgot. It was 600. It's YouTube. He throws up past it. Just subscribe to him on YouTube. There's a lot of good content there. And then also live, watch it on Twitch. He partnered. He does a fantastic job with all the tournaments he streams. He is the best partner tournament streamer in Wisconsin. Hands down. Yeah. And I'm Joel. I do the flipping out pinball stream every Wednesday night from 10 to midnight Eastern Standard Time. Check us out on YouTube. All of our past streams are there from this year. And then, obviously, on Triple Drain. I think we're all on Silver Ball Swag. Check us out for merch there, both Lugicade and Triple Drain. And what I will say, guys, is this was a lot of fun. Everybody have a – all of our listeners, thank you for being a listener. Everybody have a wonderful and fantastic holiday.
    112:52
    It's been a great year. And, yeah, Tom, like always, you get the last words. I gotta go get Neil bye