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The Pinball Show Ep 145 BONUS: Alice In Wonderland Pinball: What You Need To Know About The Upcoming Release

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·24m 5s·analyzed·Jan 16, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Hosts skeptical of Dutch Pinball's rumored Alice in Wonderland revival tied to discredited Zidware designer.

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts discuss rumors of Dutch Pinball producing a limited Alice in Wonderland game based on John Papaduke's failed Zidware concept, featuring Jeremy Packer's artwork. The hosts express serious skepticism about gameplay functionality, production capacity, and the decision to associate with controversial figures and IP tied to community scams, while analyzing whether this represents a 'cash grab' or sign of business weakness.

Key Claims

  • Dutch Pinball is producing ~200 units of Alice in Wonderland based on Zidware foam core designs with spring 2024 release target

    medium confidence · Chris Coolers reporting via Canadian Pinball Podcast; hosts acknowledge it remains unconfirmed rumor despite credible source

  • Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) was approached to finish Alice artwork but declined, stating the work shown wasn't finished to his standards

    high confidence · Direct quote from Packer on Pinside forum provided by hosts

  • Jeremy Packer never created playfield artwork; John Papaduke mocked up playfield art by cutting and pasting pieces from cabinet and backglass art

    high confidence · Direct Pinside quote from Jeremy Packer

  • Dutch Pinball lost a court case against their contract manufacturer but subsequently negotiated a manufacturing deal

    high confidence · Host explanation of Dutch Pinball's pre-pandemic litigation history in Dutch court system

  • Dutch Pinball is losing Big Lebowski license at end of 2024 and unlikely to renew

    medium confidence · Reports from Pinball News and Pinball Magazine cited by hosts

  • Dutch Pinball purchased office space across from current facility to expand production capacity

    medium confidence · Reports from Pinball News and Pinball Magazine cited by hosts

  • Dutch Pinball had over 100 early adopters waiting for games after contract manufacturer arrangement fell apart

    medium confidence · Host reference to previous Pinball News/Pinball Magazine coverage

  • Chris Coolers has arranged a plan requiring people to pay via his Patreon to access limited Alice in Wonderland units from Dutch Pinball

    low confidence · Host reference to Chris Coolers' live video; hosts express confusion about this arrangement

  • John Papaduke attempted to create an Alice in Wonderland pinball prototype for Bally in late 1980s as a job application

Notable Quotes

  • “I can appreciate that there is some positivity towards the concept of AIW, Alice in Wonderland, but to my knowledge, that is all it is, a concept. I never worked on art for a play field.”

    Jeremy Packer@ 6:10 — Artist directly disputes his involvement in playfield art and declines association with the project

  • “I'd also argue that some stuff that exists wasn't finished by my standard for what it's worth I was approached about finishing this and I graciously declined too many folks screwed over to keep these concepts alive keep them in the past and remember why they don't exist.”

    Jeremy Packer@ 6:33 — Artist explicitly warns against reviving discredited IP tied to scams; ethical stance against continuing Zidware legacy

  • “I think that's a Hail Mary by them. I think this is a sign of weakness. but they feel that they need something and back to the future isn't ready.”

    Host Dennis@ 18:22 — Interprets Dutch Pinball's rumored move as evidence of financial or production desperation

  • “cash grab. Because this seems like a, hey, let's take something where some people have some fondness, nostalgia, whatever you want to say for the concept of it... if we can charge high dollar for a pretty low effort project, why not?”

    Host Zach Sharpe@ 10:16 — Frames Alice in Wonderland production as exploitative monetization of nostalgia and brand baggage

  • “I don't know how you squeeze in all of these games. How fast are they making 200 games?”

    Host Dennis@ 13:02 — Questions production feasibility given Dutch Pinball's simultaneous obligations to Big Lebowski, early achievers, and Back to the Future

  • “Not for the limited nature, but just to have something like this because this strikes a chord... if I'm Dutch Pinball and I go through all of this turmoil... Why would you ever fuck with the bad juju that is anything, J-pop?”

    Host Zach Sharpe — Expresses internal conflict: drawn to product aesthetically but baffled by company's reputational risk strategy

Entities

Dutch PinballcompanyJohn PapadukepersonJeremy PackerpersonChris CoolerspersonAlice in Wonderlandgame

Signals

  • ?

    machine_intel: Dutch Pinball rumored to be producing ~200 units of Alice in Wonderland based on Zidware foam core designs with spring 2024 target

    medium · Chris Coolers (Canadian Pinball Podcast) reporting; hosts note this is credible but unconfirmed by Dutch Pinball directly

  • ?

    product_concern: Hosts question whether Alice in Wonderland foam core prototype is mechanically functional or even testable for physics without physical construction

    high · Extended discussion that foam core prototypes cannot test physics; comparison to other Papaduke games lacking playability; concern game may not work at all

  • ?

    product_concern: Jeremy Packer states Alice artwork is unfinished by his standards; playfield art was mocked up by Papaduke from existing cabinet/backglass pieces, not original playfield design

    high · Direct Pinside quotes from Jeremy Packer declining involvement and criticizing finished state of artwork

  • ?

    business_signal: Hosts interpret Alice in Wonderland production as sign of Dutch Pinball weakness; suggests company needs revenue while Back to the Future development stalls

    medium · Host Dennis: 'I think that's a Hail Mary by them. I think this is a sign of weakness'; timing analysis shows Big Lebowski license loss aligns with Alice announcement

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Dutch Pinball losing Big Lebowski license at end of 2024; unlikely to renew before transitioning to Back to the Future

    medium · Pinball News and Pinball Magazine reports cited by hosts

Topics

Alice in Wonderland rumored revival by Dutch PinballprimaryZidware history and John Papaduke's legacy of failed projects and community scamsprimaryJeremy Packer's artistic involvement and public decline of participationprimaryDutch Pinball's operational challenges, early adopter backlog, and licensing transitionsprimaryChris Coolers' controversial role as spokesperson and Patreon-gating arrangementprimaryProduction capacity constraints and feasibility of simultaneous game productionsecondaryCollector speculation and secondary market investment mentalitysecondaryCommunity trust and reputational risk management in pinball industrysecondary

Sentiment

negative(-0.72)— Hosts are skeptical and concerned about nearly every aspect of the Alice in Wonderland revival: gameplay viability, production decision-making, company reputational risk, artist ethical concerns, and marketing strategy. One host expresses aesthetic appreciation but tempered by serious doubts. Overall tone is pessimistic about project's viability and wisdom.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.072

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. All right, Dennis, we're here to talk about Alice in Wonderland.
0:33
Now, I don't know anything about this, so you will have to educate me. And maybe you'll be educating our Patreon listeners at the same time. I don't know how well I can do that. I do know that in the past, back in the past, there was like foam core pictures of John Papaduke's Alice in Wonderland. And this is probably, what is that, mid-2000s? Is it really that far back? Wow. I've seen the sketches of the art. Yes. I've seen some of that because here's my timeline aspect.
1:05
And again, I can't remember what years. I thought these were more around like 2010 rather than early 2000. But regardless, the Zidware alleged pyramid scheme, that'll be how I describe it, was Magic Girl was the game that Zidware was launching to try and do this concept of really limited, ultra limited, high price. At the time, high-priced pinball machines. And then as Magic Girl was purportedly in the works, there became the whole Ben Hex Zombie Adventureland was the second planned game, and money was taken for that.
1:40
And then Alice in Wonderland was the third planned game, and money was taken for that. And there was ultimately art for all three of these games. but magic girl to my knowledge was the only one that really had a lot of the layout kind of conceptualized. Yeah. But so, but it sounds like there was some form core to Alice. Yeah. Okay. And it was, it was a beauty zombie Yeti. That's like, he found Jeremy Packer, J pop found Jeremy Packer. That's why we have him in the pinball industry.

medium confidence · Host discussion of F-14 Tomcat white wooden prototype found on Pinside; different from later Zidware foam core version

  • Zidware took money for three planned games: Magic Girl, Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland, and Alice in Wonderland; only Magic Girl had significant layout conceptualization

    high confidence · Hosts' detailed historical reconstruction of Zidware's failed project timeline

    • @ 8:50

  • “It was a Hail Mary by them... they're relying on a few other aspects... a lot of people in the hobby don't know who J-Pop is.”

    Host Dennis@ 17:47 — Suggests Dutch Pinball betting on generational amnesia and community growth to obscure controversial history

    • Zidware
    company
    Magic Girlgame
    Retro Atomic Zombie Adventurelandgame
    Back to the Futuregame
    The Big Lebowskigame
    Pinball Newsorganization
    Pinball Magazineorganization
    Canadian Pinball Podcastorganization
    Pinsideorganization
    Bruce Nightingaleperson
    The Pinball Showorganization
    Circus Voltairegame
    Totemgame
    Twilight Zonegame
    F-14 Tomcatgame
  • ?

    product_strategy: Hosts characterize Alice in Wonderland production as monetization of nostalgia with minimal development investment

    medium · Host concern about 200-unit run receiving full code/animation/sound support; comparison to classic cash-grab behavior; high price point with low development effort suspected

  • ?

    industry_signal: Dutch Pinball choosing to associate with heavily controversial designer (Papaduke) and IP tied to community scams despite company's own troubled history

    high · Extended discussion of how Alice/Zidware/Magic Girl scams burned community; hosts note this contradicts expected post-litigation reputation management strategy

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeremy Packer publicly declined involvement in Alice revival; issued ethical warning about reviving discredited Papaduke IP

    high · Direct Pinside quotes from Packer: 'too many folks screwed over to keep these concepts alive keep them in the past'

  • ?

    content_signal: Chris Coolers arranged as official spokesperson/gatekeeper with Patreon-based access control for limited units; hosts confused and critical of arrangement

    medium · Host reference to Chris Coolers' live video describing Patreon-payment requirement for purchasing Alice units; unclear whether this is official Dutch Pinball strategy or independent venture

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Dutch Pinball purchased adjacent office space to expand production capacity

    medium · Pinball News/Pinball Magazine reports cited by hosts; context suggests preparation for Back to the Future production

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts suggest Dutch Pinball relying on community generational turnover to obscure Zidware/Papaduke history and their own litigation past

    medium · Host Dennis: 'they're relying on a few other aspects... a lot of people in the hobby don't know who J-Pop is'; discussion of how old negative history gets discussed less on modern podcasts

  • ?

    collector_signal: Pre-pandemic secondary market speculation on limited runs has cooled; hosts note Big Bang Bar remakes no longer drive collector investment mentality

    medium · Host discussion of market timing: 'It's not how it was pre-pandemic. There was a time where this, I would have said absolutely they'll sell the 200 units'; notes shift away from speculation-driven purchases

    • 2:12
    Essentially. He found him to work on that. So we do have that foam core prototype with the back glass done by Jeremy. And that's kind of, honestly, it's not J-pop that is keeping the desire alive for Alice in Wonderland. It's Jeremy Packer's artwork on the back glass. Well, that's been true for, in my opinion, for everything J-pop's done, other than World Cup Soccer, which has a certain segment of people who like it for how it plays and was noted to have been severely bailed out by other designers at Williams.
    2:47
    But what is the thing that Tales of the Arabian Nights Theater and Magic and Circus of Altair all have going for them? It was for the 90s. They are probably the best art packages. They were beauties. Yep, they were beauties. He had a design that kind of stood out from the rest of the crowd in the pinball industry at that time. even like if we go back alice in wonderland i think he tried to do a prototype of that in the late 80s uh for bally like coming in trying to get a job i guess about bally or anything um but
    3:20
    if you go to pin side there is a the game was white wooded prototype from a f-14 tomcat there was a prototype alice in wonderland looks nothing like the foam core edition that he later built Zidware era, but he was hot and heavy on this theme for quite some time. Yeah, what most people know is Zombietti artwork. But some really interesting things have come up recently to suggest that this game is possibly getting made again. Chris Coolers from Canadian Pinball Podcast reported that Dutch Pinball is going to be producing a very limited number of Alice in Wonderland
    3:57
    based on the foam core crafts of John Papaduke from his failed company, Zidware. Now, it's said that the upcoming release of this title will be spring 2024. March, April, I think is what they said. There's going to be 200 or so units, very limited. A lot of European market probably purchasing some of these. If they're being made by Dutch, they might stay over there. And it's going to have a different cabinet than the Zidware prototypes. All right. what's it going to look like?
    4:29
    Whoever has this IP now, I guess Dutch pinball has the use of zombie. Eddie's artwork that he did on the back glass. And he roughly did like a sketch for a topper. But I guess that can be used as well. But we don't know. I don't know what the side of the cabinet looks like. The play field looks like it's drawn in, but I was reading Pinside and Zombie Yeti chimed in about this new wave of
    5:00
    Alice in Wonderland because this kind of shit happens with John Pobadook stuff all the time as we talked about and people have got they got scammed out of money during Zidware they got scammed out of money from Deep Root they're going to do Retro Atomic, Zombie Adventureland and Magic Girl and then here we go again people over in Europe try to make Magic Girl, they're still making Magic Girl like this kit to fix your other game, and they're selling for high amounts of money. People continue to lose money on this stuff, but here we go again. But Zombie Yeti chimes in in Pinside and claimed that he was approached to work on this very project,
    5:35
    and he turned it down. He goes on to say that the artwork that he did, he doesn't really vouch for it being the final iteration of what it was going to be. He's like, I wouldn't even have done with that artwork. So whatever they're using, like that wouldn't have been what I signed off on. There was more work that needed to be done. Also indicated that he never did any of the play field artwork Rather it was just J kind of cutting pieces of his artwork and pasting it onto the play field as he seemed fit Oh interesting I want to read the quote from Jeremy Packard to make sure I not missing any of this
    6:09
    This is on Penn State. He said, quote, I can appreciate that there is some positivity towards the concept of AIW, Alice in Wonderland, but to my knowledge, that is all it is, a concept. I never worked on art for a play field, by the way. look closer and you can see J-Pop took bits and pieces and mocked up the play field art from cab and back glass art I also never did color studies or anything past ink because they're talking about colorizing this game he goes on to say I'd also argue that some stuff that exists wasn't finished
    6:40
    by my standard for what it's worth I was approached about finishing this and I graciously declined too many folks screwed over to keep these concepts alive keep them in the past and remember why they don't exist. Best of luck to those pursuing this, but I'd spend the energy on something new and untarnished. So some strong words by the artist that makes people interested in this project, in my opinion, Jeremy Packer, a.k.a. Zombie Yeti. So if we're looking at
    7:11
    the foam core of this, it's whimsical just like it is. John Papaduke swirling little ramps and wire forms, well, foam wire forms. It's got a big upper play field, Twilight Zone magnets. As I look at this, here's what I worry about. Of course it's beautiful. It's got the big display in the back panel like Barrels of Fun is now doing. Do you think this game is even fun to shoot? I mean, based off of everything else we saw out of John Papaduke recently and his Zidware projects, no.
    7:42
    In fact, I question that it's even properly functional. That's what most people are saying. They're like, okay, well, foam is fine but you can't you can't test physics and stuff like that like there's a good chance this shit doesn't even work retro atomic zombie adventure land there was nothing really desirable about the looks of that layout the geometry of layout even with magic girl i flipped it at expo i'm like there was something intriguing about this game that had me wanting to play more but there was no wow moments or anything maybe it's because this stuff didn't work but i'm with
    8:15
    you i i don't know how enjoyable this game's going to be or if it even functions and even if it does function is it still going to be fun enough based on the standards of what we do in pinball in the 2020s now this is all old 90s stuff yeah so i i don't know i don't know this was just kind of just a concept that's one of my man i'm a sucker for this kind of stuff this is like my wheelhouse Dennis, this is the kind of stuff that I'd want to buy if done correctly, and I would be happy to overpay if it was limited.
    8:50
    Not for the limited nature, but just to have something like this because this strikes a chord. If it strikes a chord in any collector, this is my type of chord. So if this is marketed towards anybody, I am the prime recipient of something like this, and I'm still concerned. It looks cool. I don't know if it's... Nothing visually looks like it's cool enough to make me want to shoot necessarily, but I'm okay with things like Totem and Circus Voltaire.
    9:21
    So if it can replicate that, I'm good with it. But I have my doubts. One of my red flags is that this was created only as a concept. I don't know if it works. Magic Girl didn't look fun. Another red flag for me, how are these things going to get produced? If there's a small amount of games being made, are they really going to allocate resources to put into rules, animation? And this is 2024. This isn't the 90s. Coding, lighting, sound.
    9:52
    If you're only going to make 200 or less of these, I don't even know if they'd sell 200. But if they did, are you going to allocate resources to that? No. So I think based off of this, I mean, it would be conceivable for a company like Dutch to be able to make 200 units of something. Are they going to really polish it up? Probably not. I feel like I have to channel Bruce Nightingale from Slam Tilt and just say, cash grab. Because this seems like a, hey, let's take something where some people have some fondness, nostalgia, whatever you want to say for the concept of it.
    10:25
    We know it's not going to be a huge audience, but if we can charge high dollar for a pretty low effort project, why not take our cash grab and do that while we try and position ourselves to do our next game back to the future because we're not ready for it? Or because we know nobody's going to – even if this is a dud, people will still open their wallets for that thing. I think that's what they're at least counting on. I don't know. Do they even need that? I don't know how well it moves, Zach.
    10:56
    It's not how it was pre-pandemic. There was a time where this, I would have said absolutely they'll sell the 200 units simply because of the speculation that they're going to be valuable. Yes, yes. Timing is a big thing, yeah. That was what Zidware was. It was a, hey, it worked for Big Bang Bar remakes. I'm going to get in on this. And everyone, Von E.D., Skit B, that was what all of them were doing. And people were buying them not because they truly loved the theme or even that they cared all that much about the art. It was that they thought, this is my opinion, that they thought that they were going to make money off of this.
    11:28
    That they would buy a game for $15,000 and then in two years sell it for $30,000. That's what it was. Well, it kind of didn't work for Big Bang Bar, though. Well, I mean, the thing was the guy who did Big Bang Bar, as you know, basically lost his shirt on the project. It was all the consumers who gained. But again, as a consumer, that's really the only perspective they care about. they don't care if Dutch makes money, but Dutch thinks that they, that there a recipe here for it That what I think It just none of it lines up So even if it Dutch listener Okay So we know that we 10 years now and they still making big Lebowskis for early adopters
    12:09
    All right. Okay. We hear reports from Pinball News, Pinball Magazine that they lose that license at the end of 2024 and strong likelihood they're not going to re-up that license because they're moving on to the rumored Back to the Future which continued rumors speculation is that they get an announcement by the end of 2024 for Back to the Future. Okay. So we've got now, they're still needing to build games, taking orders on Big Lebowski, end of this year, Back to the Future, and they're going to squeeze in this little project that they're going to ask a lot of money for, and they're going to resource.
    12:42
    I know that another report from Pinball News, Pinball Magazine, is that Dutch Pinball, they They bought the office across from them, and they're going to have more room to do production stuff. Okay, so that makes sense. Still have to staff it. You still have to – it's just a lot of stuff. I don't know how you squeeze in all of these games. How fast are they making 200 games? I don't remember what their weekly build rate – do you recall? I don't. They used to talk about how many Big Lebowskis they were turning out, and I want to think that they were –
    13:17
    It's not moving, I don't think. It's not, but I want to think they were. At one point, I thought it got up to at least 10 a week. Okay. So, what? Say they build 50 weeks out of the year, that would be 500. So, I mean, in theory, they could do it in a year. I just don't know why now. I always ask myself why now. Well, and that's a good question. I would say it's Back to the Future is not ready because they have to design that game like they did Big Lebowski. Big Lebowski sales, it's been a decade.
    13:48
    They have to be. You have to have been really, really late to the party to still want a big Lebowski new in box from them. So they just can't be needing to make that many. And I think they're like, we have to keep the line moving, even if it's a small line, even if it's not very many units a week. They're like, we have to keep the line moving. And or money might be tight. Maybe they want to do this because they think that might take care of the last of the early achievers and let them – because for those that don't know, because they were originally using a contract manufacturer, when that all fell apart, there were over 100 people who were waiting for a game who didn't get it.
    14:29
    And they had been last thing, and I haven't listened to Pinball News, Pinball Magazine podcast in a long time. They had been basically every three or four new sales that they were building direct would result in one early achiever finally getting the game they had paid for years ago. I have always been skeptical of that entire process, but I've been very skeptical that they'd ever sell enough more Big Lebowski's, even as popular as it was, to actually do that on a three to four per model. and I always figured they would eventually have to move to a new game
    15:01
    to finish off the early achievers. That raises another thing that just makes me scratch my head. So if I'm Dutch Pinball and I go through all of this turmoil in the early – they tarnished their company significantly. How didn't they go bankrupt at some point? It was a mess. People were left with losing money. It was a damn mess. So even if you get Big Lebowski, people generally like that game, right? So that saves you a little bit.
    15:33
    And then the talks of you getting back to the future helps you a little bit. Why would you ever fuck with the bad juju that is anything, J-pop, and the Alice in Wonderland who has already burned people? So if you're a company listener that has already faced all of that, to throw this on top of in your portfolio oh i i they're the last people that i would want if i'm this company i would want to stay so damn clean moving forward that this kind of stuff
    16:08
    coming on my on my desk is like this is a quick hell no absolutely not we don't want any more risk here yeah i see the perspective but they might be they might be relying on a few other aspects would be my obviously they've arrived at if this is true they've arrived at a different decision one would be oh well first i'm not sure that they actually uh ended up in bankruptcy i think what happened was they did have litigation against their contract manufacturer which they lost so they were trying to say that the contract manufacturer violated contract and my understanding
    16:41
    was the dutch court system said no the contract manufacturer is in the right and then i think they would have had to have folded bankruptcy wise if they weren't able to then strike a deal. But after losing that case, they essentially made an arrangement with a contract manufacturer to get the big Lebowski, like all the parts and stuff, they made a deal. So then they had something to move forward with. And they went to this model where they do their own manufacturing. So but here's the thing that I think that they are probably thinking about or processing first.
    17:13
    This was years ago. That court thing was resolved before the COVID pandemic. So I think they are, one, counting on a lot of people who were not around then to not know about this. Because people don't talk about Dutch pinball much in those old days on podcasts and stuff. I mean, here, I mean, this is behind the paywall. This is not something we would normally talk about with them. So it was a long time ago. So, you know, time heals all wounds. So there's that. Second, same thing is true for Zidware, but even more so because the Zidware stuff is even older than the Dutch pinball stuff.
    17:47
    So they're relying on that aspect. A lot of people in the hobby don't know who J-Pop is. And three even those who do know there always been this segment of the hobby that is sort of J obsessed that will see this as a beautiful game Obsessed is a strong word We see it as a limited run game And they start to lick their lips or Dutch thinks they will And they'll go, this is an investment. This is something we should do because it could pay dividends to us. I don't see this as an investment.
    18:18
    I was guilty of some of those things. But I think that's what they think. I think this is a Hail Mary by them. I think this is a sign of weakness. but they feel that they need something and back to the future isn't ready. That's what I think is happening. Just a guess. And, of course, this is, I mean, even if Chris Coolers is reporting that Dutch Pinball is making, I mean, it's still a rumor. It's not like Dutch has come out and said, yes, he's right. But, yeah, I just, like, there's so many things that I'm like, why make potential consumers question?
    18:53
    If you keep stacking up little stuff, they'll start to pay attention because it piles up. For example, it feels like Chris Coolers, he's got his own history with the Canadian Spinball Podcast, a big-ass long negative history. They're making him their spokesperson. That's another thing I'm like, ugh. So you have a history with these early achievers, 10 years, making games. Then you feel comfortable throwing the J-pop controversy into the mix. Now you're going to throw Chris Coolers into the mix as a spokesperson. I was listening to one of Chris's, I think it was a live video,
    19:27
    him saying that he's got a plan with Dutch now that for select individuals to buy this limited game, they have to pay him or be paying him via his Patreon in order to get one of these games from Dutch. What? What? That makes no sense. So now I'm like, well, so you're partnering up with this guy. Are you partnering up the whole concept of J-pop? Individually, these things might overlook some of these, but this is starting to really not feel great.
    19:59
    And I'm your prime target audience for this product. I will say, don't ink it. Leave it black and white. That's what makes this thing so intriguing. I want this entire thing being black and white. Don't color in Alice, nor the Cheshire Cat, nor any of these characters. I like the black and white sketches. But yeah, speaking of sketch, a lot of things worry me with this rumored, reported future product, potentially. Yeah. It's odd. Why do I have to pay somebody?
    20:30
    It's odd stuff. Well, that's a strange marketing decision. Well, to tie it to a podcaster, period, much less to put it behind their Patreon. Yeah, much less one that has such a negative history with people. The thing is where maybe they're coming from, and it's been a long time, so again, my memory is not the best that it once was. I want to think, though, that Chris at one point owned a Magic Girl. He did, yeah. And I want to think at one point I remember reading that he was very close to buying a second one.
    21:04
    And so if we're talking people that are like all in on J-pop and you think, you know what, we need someone who's going to look past all the baggage and what telegraphs looking past all the baggage and owning a non-working game and then deciding for at least a brief while that you want a second one. That might be why they're thinking that is you need someone who's like just all in on J-pop and maybe Chris is that individual. And that might be the reason why they did that. And then maybe the – I'm just, again, guessing maybe the Patreon thing is if they can't really afford to pay him a lot of money as a spokesperson, they say, well, we'll route it through the Patreon.
    21:41
    He's got several hundred people. We only need to sell 200 of these. I don't think it works, but I think maybe that might be the way they came about it. I don't know. He was really big into Magic Girl, as I recall. Just painting the picture of your brand. I just – I don't know about some of these moves, but we'll see. I mean, these – it's all a big thing. You know, this is – that's one of the things that we – you know, we didn't talk about on the regular episode, but with the whole thing when I brought up on Market Trends about the Ghostbusters is, does Stern really – do they revisit a game that someone who was convicted of sexual abuse to – like, do you bring back a Trudeau game with the baggage of it being tied to his name?
    22:23
    and the assumption is people will at this point we will the difference there to me is that when i see that game i see this big team working on this game because it's an actual product with animation with sound with rules with design so and multiple designers too not just not just uh the trudeau i I mean, not one single designer. There's usually other team members that are doing some engineering and some cab.
    22:56
    So that's a product out there. Whereas J-Pop here, it's his foam core stuff and it's Zombie Yeti's art. There was no programming done. There was no other team here. It was just them two. So this is very symbolic to Zombie Yeti and to J-Pop because that's the only two to my knowledge that had anything really to do with this. Could be wrong, but that's why it feels different with Ghostbusters because that was an entire team creating an actual product.
    23:28
    Yeah, and I could see where people would agree with that. I'm just saying that people start to go, maybe we can. Maybe it's okay to look past these sort of things after a certain point. I don't know. Email us at thepenbullshowatgmail.com. Let us know your thoughts regarding, or actually better yet, Open it up in discussion in our Discord right now. Does this interest you? Does it raise red flags to you? Does it raise green flags? Good to go. So many flags. This is the end of the content, guys.
    24:00
    You can turn it off now. Woo-hoo. Yay.