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Episode 121 - Barry Oursler: Pinball's Rollercoaster Man

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 17m·analyzed·Jun 29, 2026
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Deep dive into Barry Oursler overlooked legacy as one of pinball's most prolific designers.

Summary

Wedgehead A A Pinball Podcast episode exploring the career of Barry Oursler, a legendary but underrated solid-state pinball designer who sold 135,000+ units at Williams (1978-1996)—more than Pat Lawlor and second only to Steve Ritchie. The hosts discuss Ousler's prolific output of 30+ games, his early hits (Phoenix, Time Warp, Gorgar, Laserball) and rare gems from the industry crisis years (Time Fantasy, Starlight, Cosmic Gunfight), noting the stark contradiction between his commercial success and contemporary obscurity in modern rankings.

Key Claims

  • Barry Oursler sold 135,000+ units during his Williams career (1978-1996), more than Pat Lawlor and second only to Steve Ritchie 147,000 units

    high confidence · Alan (host) presents these as established historical facts about sales data

  • Ousler designed over 30 machines in his career

    high confidence · Alan states this in the episode introduction as a defining fact about Ousler's prolific output

  • Some of Ousler's games are credited with saving the pinball industry in the mid-1980s after the video game crisis

    medium confidence · Alan claims this in the opening but does not specify which games or provide direct evidence

  • Ousler's first design credit was Phoenix in 1978, which sold over 6,000 units

    high confidence · Alan presents this as a documented fact; both hosts acknowledge the game's sales success

  • Time Warp (Ousler's second game) sold 9,000 units and was designed with banana flipper geometry in mind

    medium confidence · Alan cites sales figures; hosts discuss the banana flipper origin story but note it was based on a marketing anecdote about women preferring them

  • Gorgar (1979) was the first Williams game with speech and sold 14,000 units

    high confidence · Alan states this as documented fact; hosts discuss the trade show story about Gary Stern's father Sam being upset about the volume

  • Ousler was the only working designer left at Williams for a couple of years during the early 1980s crisis, even after Steve Ritchie left briefly

    medium confidence · Alan mentions this as historical context but does not provide specific dates or detailed support

  • Barracora was originally based on a sketch by Roger Sharpe and Steve Epstein, but Ousler completely reworked it

    medium confidence · Alan cites Barry's own account in TopCast interview, noting that Ousler said he didn't keep much of the original sketch

Notable Quotes

  • “he's probably the single most disrespected pinball designer of the solid state era”

    Alan @ ~00:03:00 — Sets up the central thesis of the episode and the debate about Ousler's legacy

  • “I would say he's the designer I love and hate. Yes, that's the most accurate”

    Alex @ ~00:05:00 — Captures the core contradiction of Ousler's career: creating both beloved and poorly-regarded games

  • “Steve sold over 147,000 games during his time at Williams, and Pat Lawlor, who has the single best-selling game of all time with The The Addams Family, only sold just under 70,000 units during his Williams era”

    Alan @ ~00:08:00 — Provides critical commercial comparison showing Ousler's underrated sales performance versus design legends

  • “He's kind of like the Burt Bacharach of pinball designers... Had a bunch of big hits and nobody talks about him anymore”

    Alex @ ~00:10:00 — Encapsulates the cultural phenomenon of Ousler being prolific but forgotten despite massive commercial success

  • “Barry always seemed to kind of just go into things willingly. Like he always jumps into weird little projects”

    Alan @ ~00:24:00 — Characterizes Ousler's design philosophy as adventurous and experimental across diverse themes and mechanics

  • “It's really expensive and it's a really fun, I really like it... You never get to see it”

    Defender @ ~00:42:00 — Highlights the collector frustration with Ousler's rarest games—limited availability despite design quality

  • “all of that shit just slows pinball down”

    Time Fantasy @ ~01:00:00 — Articulates design principle: constraint-driven simplicity paradoxically improves core pinball experience

  • “It's just laser ball in a narrow body”

    Star Light @ ~01:15:00 — Explains Starlight's design origin and why it's visually superior to Laserball despite mechanical similarities

Entities

Barry OurslerpersonSteve RitchiepersonPat LawlorpersonAlanpersonAlexpersonWilliamscompanyGorgargame

Signals

  • ?

    historical_signal: Barry Ousler's career represents a paradox in pinball history: commercial dominance (135K+ units) paired with modern obscurity in community rankings and discourse. This suggests shifts in what contemporary collectors value versus what drove 1980s arcade success.

    high · Only 1 Ousler game in Pinside Top 100 despite his 135,000+ unit sales; 3 games on PinballRanker.com; hosts note 'single most disrespected designer of solid state era'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Time Fantasy exemplifies a design principle where cost-reduction constraints (minimal parts, switches, moving elements) paradoxically create superior gameplay by stripping away mechanical complexity that slows down core pinball action.

    high · Alex: 'all of that shit just slows pinball down'; game praised despite (or because of) being low-budget design exercise with pared-down mechanics

  • ?

    community_signal: Significant gap between Ousler's rare games (Starlight: 100 units, Defender: 369 units, Time Fantasy: 600 units) and collector accessibility. Hosts and community desire these machines but cannot find them, creating artificial scarcity that may distort contemporary appreciation.

    high · Alex: 'You never get to see it'; hosts expressing desire to own or play rare Ousler games; BorgDog highlighted as lucky collector with Starlight copy

  • ?

    industry_signal: Ousler was the only working Williams designer during the early 1980s video game crisis period, indicating he was either most resilient or accepted assignments others rejected. His rare games from this era (Defender, Cosmic Gunfight, Time Fantasy, Starlight) may represent adaptation to industry contraction.

    medium · Alan: 'only guy left at Williams for a couple years... even Steve left briefly'; coincides with 1981 Pac-Man/Galaga surge decimating pinball

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.233

0:00
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. I'm Alan, your host, one of the owners of Wedgehead, the pinball bar in Portland, Oregon. I'm joined in the studio, the basement studio of my co-host, as usual, Alex, the water boy. How you doing? I'm doing great. My patience is currently being tested because we're also joined by my puppy, George, who's driving me fucking nuts right now.
0:49
You guys are trying to eat the mic. But, you know, other than that, I'm doing okay. So, you know, count your blessings, I suppose. It's also my turn to plug the coffee, which is great. See if I can do this without George, you know, getting me too off track. For those that don't know, if you're a fan of the show and you want to show some support for all of the hard work Alan puts in and the medium work I put in, you can do so by going to ko-fi.com slash Wedgehead Podcast. That's coffee.com slash Wedgehead Podcast. You can throw us a few bucks. You throw us a few bucks to say thanks for making the show. You get an invite to the Discord server if you want to be in there. It's a good time. You know, as pointed out on a recent or possibly upcoming episode of Dye on this Hill, you get access to a lot of good deals from people because everybody just posts stuff they wish they could buy themselves in there. Yeah. That's maybe the single best monetary argument to join it. You know? Yeah, it costs only a couple bucks to get in there, But then somebody might inform you of the need to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars. Exactly. It's a good system. Yeah. We're just keeping the pinball economy going there with that. But it's a good time. We also talk about all the new games, all the random stuff that we don't talk about on this podcast. But, you know, still pinball related and movies. I ranked all of Fast and Furious movies recently. Yeah, that's the hot content. Yeah. Nobody cared. One guy, Dylan, cares. Other than that, nobody even engaged. But I was like, well, I'm just doing this for me.
2:15
I'm just doing it because I know someone's going to make a Fast and Furious pinball machine eventually. And so I was like, well, I got to watch all of the movies. I hadn't even seen the last one. And you call yourself a fan. It was a grind. That's anyway, if you want to know more about that, join the discord. That's not what we're here. What are we here for today, Alan? Well, today's episode is all about the probably the single most disrespected pinball designer of the solid state era. Mr. Barry Ousler. He designed over 30 machines in his career and made some of the highest selling games of the late 1970s throughout the 1980s. Some of his games are even credited with saving the industry in the mid-1980s after the video game crisis started to decimate pinball sales. But if you log on to Pinside today, you will find only one Barry Ousler game in the top 100. Really? Bram Stoker's Dracula all the way down at number 74. That's fucking wild. On PinballRanker.com, the superior ranking website, there's three Barry games that make the top 100 list including Dracula, Doctor Who, and Jackpot. But those aren't even the games that made him an industry legend. So in this episode, we are exploring the career of this legend and why he isn't more well-known or well-regarded today. Because even though he made some of the all-time great games, he also made some of the lowest-regarded pinball machines of all time too. His career, even to his most ardent fans, had massive ups and downs, quickly oscillating throughout. It's actually quite fitting considering how two of his biggest hits were in fact rollercoaster themed. So without further ado, this is Barry Ousler, Pinball's rollercoaster man, aka the designer Alex loves to hate. I take issue with that. I would say he's the designer I love and hate. Yes, that's the most. Because I really, really, really love some of his games. And then there's some that I'm like, I don't know what we're going for here. But it'll be fun to kind of run through this, see the evolution, see how fast we swing. Because it's not like he had a falling off. He knew what he was doing the whole time. It's a really interesting career. Very interesting story. Very long career. One of the longest working designers in pinball, like up there with Steve Ritchie. Yeah, I mean, he definitely didn't do much after Williams laid him off in 96. No, but nobody did except for Pat and Steve. Yeah. Will and Gomez. And Borg. Yeah, but Borg basically was just a Stern employee the whole time, so he didn't really have that chance to come back. Yeah, no, Barry's an interesting one. He's definitely interesting. We'll start with his career. He sold over 135,000 units during his career at Williams from 1978 to 1996. That's more than Pat Lawler and is only bested by one person, the king, Steve Ritchie. It's kind of nuts. Steve sold over 147,000 games during his time at Williams, and Pat Lawler, who has the single best-selling game of all time with the Adams family, only sold just under 70,000 units during his Williams era. So Barry really should be a more famous and well-known name because the guy pushed units. Yeah, for numbers alone. Numbers alone absolutely crushed it. Yeah, man. Part of that is that he worked for a long time and part of it is that he was very prolific. But he also made big hits. He had a bunch of big hits. It's like he did the big hits that like those other big name guys did. And then he also cranked out like little side projects and stuff as we'll get into. He's kind of like the Burt Bacharach of pinball designers. I don't know who that is. I take your word for it. Had a bunch of big hits and nobody talks about him anymore. You know what I mean? And the people that do are like, isn't he kind of bad, though? And you're like, no, dude, he had big hits. You're like, do people all love bad stuff? I don't know. I mean, we'll talk about it in this episode. Yeah, so he started working at Williams the day he graduated high school as a tester in 1970. He worked on the factory line for two years before he got promoted to the engineering department alongside Norm Clark and Steve Kordick. Hell yeah, dude. Those are two good dudes. Which we covered on our electromechanical designer crash course episode. Yeah, everybody should know those names. If you don't, shame on you. He was working in the sample room where they made the prototypes and building the whitewoods. So that was sort of what he did, working alongside Norm and Steve. His first actual design credit was Phoenix in 1978, and it was immediately a Smash. It sold over 6,000 units. Yeah, and it's not very good. No. By today's standards? Yeah. See, this is kind of like Flash sold a ton, too, right? Same year? Is Flash 78?

Baracora's name was changed from Barracuda by marketing because Doug Watson's artwork resembled an image already in use

low confidence · Alan provides this detail but without direct sourcing or corroboration from the content

  • Time Fantasy was designed as a low-budget experiment with minimal moving parts and switches, which resulted in exceptional gameplay

    medium confidence · Alex and Alan discuss this as design philosophy evident in the game; based on observed mechanics rather than explicit design statement

  • Phoenix
    game
    Time Warpgame
    The Addams Familygame
    Laser Ballgame
    Barracoragame
    Time Fantasygame
    Cosmic Gunfightgame
    Star Lightgame
    Joustgame
    Defendergame
    Jungle Lordgame
    Scorpiongame
    Solar Firegame
    Roger Sharpeperson
    Joe Kaminkowperson
    Pinsideorganization
    PinballRanker.comorganization
  • ?

    product_strategy: Ousler designed multiple games based on Williams arcade IP (Defender, Joust) during the crisis period, suggesting manufacturer strategy to leverage existing franchises rather than original themes during industry contraction.

    medium · Both Defender and Joust based on existing Williams arcade games; both sold poorly (369 and 400 units respectively)

  • $

    market_signal: Ousler's rarest games command premium prices due to limited production and collector demand, but hosts acknowledge actual gameplay quality may not justify secondary market pricing relative to more available alternatives.

    medium · Starlight 100 units with 'worth a lot of money'; Laserball comparison suggests similar gameplay but wide-body vs. narrow-body drives collectors to rare Starlight

  • ?

    design_innovation: Ousler's portfolio shows willingness to experiment with novel mechanics: banana flippers (Time Warp), split-level playfields (Jungle Lord), magna saves, head-to-head formats (Joust), and minimalist layouts (Time Fantasy). Suggests designer philosophy of testing boundaries.

    high · Alex: 'always jumps into weird little projects'; diverse game catalog mixing innovations with commercial assignments

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ousler's 18-year tenure at Williams (1978-1996) places him among the longest-serving designers, but hosts note he 'didn't do much after Williams laid him off in 96,' suggesting limited post-Williams career compared to Ritchie and Lawlor.

    medium · Alan: 'didn't do much after Williams laid him off in 96... nobody did except Pat and Steve'; indicates Ousler's career effectively ended with Williams closure

  • ?

    content_signal: Wedgehead podcast dedicates full episode to Ousler's legacy, suggesting growing community interest in reassessing undervalued designers. Hosts cite TopCast interview as primary source material and encourage listeners to engage with historical interviews.

    high · Structured 2+ hour retrospective; hosts cite TopCast interview; explicit recommendation to listen to Joshua Clay Harrell's interview with Ousler

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Hosts discuss Williams flipper hardware from Ousler's era as inferior to Bally/Stern equivalents. This suggests mechanical design choices in Ousler's games may be constrained by manufacturing limitations rather than pure design preference.

    medium · Host discussing Barracora: 'I'm not a massive fan of how these Williams this era flips compared to like the Bally and Sterns... I just don't like the hardware as much'

  • $

    market_signal: Ousler games appear in different positions on competing ranking platforms (Pinside vs. PinballRanker), suggesting community consensus on game quality remains fragmented. Pinside ranks Dracula #74; PinballRanker includes 3 Ousler titles in Top 100.

    medium · Pinside Top 100: 1 game (#74 Dracula); PinballRanker.com Top 100: 3 games (Dracula, Doctor Who, Jackpot)

  • ?

    historical_signal: 1981 marks sharp inflection point where pinball sales collapsed overnight due to Pac-Man, Galaga release. Ousler's production timeline shows he released multiple games during worst industry contraction, suggesting either continued Williams investment or designer persistence.

    high · Alan: '1981... Pac-Man, Miss Pac came out... Galaga... that's when everyone just quit buying pins'; Ousler released Solar Fire, Barracora (1981) despite crisis

  • 7:05
    78 or 79. Yeah, it's one of those. These early solid state games, it's kind of bizarre looking back at the ones that sold really well, And then the ones that I really like, and that's pretty much an inverse. You know, it's like, it's weird. It's like what attracted people to some of these games at the time. It's like they were so novel that things were selling good based off of things that aren't important to us now. Like, Starz sold horrible. And you're like, yeah, because it looks old. The art looks dated for when it came out. Starz from Stern Electronics, not Barry. It sold horrible because it looks dated. It has chimes, so it sounds dated. But it's a phenomenal game where something like Phoenix looked much more modern. Phoenix has a very interesting Steve Kordick-inspired sort of center drop, sort of like Grand Prix. Maybe that game's... I was just kind of trying to get a reaction out of you, saying it sucked immediately as you finished your statement. I really... I've played it maybe like once or twice, and it didn't make a strong impression on me. It's not great. I'd like to play it again, just knowing now that it's Barry's first. Because when I played it, I didn't know that. Well, and I want to say to everyone, you know, I'll link, like I always do in the show notes, The TopCast interview with Barry Ousler that Clay Harrell did back in the day. It's great. You guys should listen to that episode two to hear it from his mouth and some of the extra stories. And yeah, if you guys love these history, I spent a lot of time re-listening to these for these episodes. And I always say it on the show and I always link it in the episodes, but it's good to reiterate in case y'all are listening to Pinball Podcast, you want to hear the OGs do it. Go back and listen to some of those TopCast episodes. They're very good. But we're going to get right into his game designs because, like I said, he did over 30 of them, so we're going to move through quite a bit of these. His second game was Time Warp. This game sold 9,000 units. That's like more than any modern game except for Godzilla. That's why you see those fucking games everywhere, dude. Do you like that game? No. And it had banana flippers. So yeah, if anyone's unaware, I had Banana Flippers, one of two games that shipped with Banana Flippers, which are pinball flippers shaped like bananas in the rubber they chose to put on them is yellow. So they mean they really, you know, they look like bananas. The fun little fact here is that supposedly the rumor or the story goes that they were working on a highlight game, that sport you play with those little basket contraption, you know, things that you catch and throw it with. I don't know. It's a thing that was apparently popular in the late 70s or in the mid 70s and then fell off really hard. Yep. And so they were like, ah, shit, we have these flippers that look like highlight basket things and we don't got anything to do with them. So they put them on Time Warp and Disco Fever and they sold 9000. There's a lot of pops in this game. Yeah, it's it's just like it's a bizarre game. It seems like it was designed with the banana flipper geometry in mind because there's some weird backhandable shots and there's not a lot of shots up the center and stuff. It's goofy. And Barry said, you know, the banana flippers weren't his idea. He reiterated another story about the banana flippers, which were, you know, someone in marketing told everyone that supposedly they tested really well with women, that women were going to love banana flippers for unknown reasons. Mysterious. Kind of like how women loved Pinbot, so they made Jackbot, which will come up later, right? Yeah, or Bride. Well, yeah, they made, like, they just leaned into it. Yeah, it's interesting. Then his next game was Gorgar in 1979, and this was the first game with Speech, and sold, or the first Williams games with Speech, and sold 14,000 units. And that's... Wait, which, what game is this? Gorgar. Yeah, that's a lot of units, man. Yeah, no, it's an absurd amount of units. That's like one of like, that's probably like the top 10 bestsellers. It's got to be close. That's probably top 20 bestsellers of all time. Yeah, yeah. And that game is also, it's another one where I'm like, I can see why like being the first game with speech was obviously a big deal. Yeah. And he tells a story, Barry told a quick story about being at a trade show, debuting that game with Williams and Sam Stern, Gary's dad, who had Stern Electronics at the time, Had to come over to their booth and was pretty angry because you couldn't hear his games over how loud the Gorgar was set up at the trade show. It was sort of stealing their thunder. That's pretty funny. Yeah. Gorgar, also classic game. A lot of people remember it. Yeah, it's a very memorable one for obvious reasons. Kind of a cool satanic backlass. Yeah, it's that era where they're leaning into that. It's got Gorgar is kind of like a demon looking guy, right? Yeah. What are the phrases he says? Do you know him? I don't know. Because he only has a handful of words. He has like eight words, six words? So it's like Gorgard get you. Yeah. You get ball. There's just random combinations they kept throwing together. It's pretty funny. If you have the chance to play one, go play it, obviously, and try to listen. Hopefully they got the sound up. The next game, also in 1979, was Laserball and Scorpion in 1980, right afterwards. Both were wide bodies, very wide bodies. and they sold 4,500 and 2,000 units each. I did not realize Laserball was this early on. Yep, it was the widebody craze. Atari was the new competitor. They only made widebodies. Gottlieb was making them. Bally was making them. So Williams had to make some too. Atari was driving the market. It's funny how it's like someone does something like that and immediately gets a bunch of attention from the other manufacturers, even though it wasn't a good, like no one liked, you know, they didn't go over well. I mean, some of them did. You know, Paragon sold well and is considered a good game. Yeah, some of them did, but it's like they acted like everybody, like we need to make widebodies. We're going to get left behind, I think was the fear. And it's like in retrospect, it's just funny because it's like that was not the case.
    13:04
    But Laserball, I actually like quite a bit. Laserball is always kind of a fun one. Every time I get a chance to play Laserball, I enjoy it. It's like space bowling themed. Like there's like the pins arranged in the middle. I don't know. It's about lasers and balls. and I just think it's a fun one to shoot. I actually like that game quite a bit. Interesting. Especially because it's always cheap. Well, yeah, for sure. And then Scorpion, what do you think about Scorpion? I hate Scorpion. I think Scorpion's kind of fun too. It can play really long. That's my memory of when I've played it in the past. And it's so wide and it's like... Well, I mean, yeah, it's a lot. It lumbers, dude. It does. Both of those have a lot of side-to-side action. You're watching that ball go, you know, east to west, right? I will say, like, I'm a Barry Ousler fan. I think you are as well. But as you said, it's more accurate to describe us both probably as we love and hate Barry Ousler games. Yeah. And I think I think with Barry, he is the kind of guy where you're like, he always has a good excuse for why or I can always excuse. Oh, I can rationalize all of his choices. Yeah, always. Because he was forced into making wide bodies like he was forced into making banana flipper games. Steve Ritchie was forced to make wide bodies and he made shitty games too when he did. Yeah. You know, it's like everybody, like they had this stuff like kind of thrust upon them by management. And then it's like, yeah, you maybe make something that wasn't the best. But I will say like Barry always seemed to kind of just go into things willingly. Like he always jumps into weird little projects. And you'll see that as we keep going. His next game was Jungle Lord 1981. Gotta make an Upper Playfield game. Everybody's doing it. Barry had to. He sold 6,000 units. It features a split-level playfield and was absolutely loaded. Yeah, it features a little bagatelle. This game was on the floor at Wedge recently, and I enjoy it a decent amount. And I think almost all of that comes down to those fucking, uh, the Magna saves. Yep. Are so fun to, like, swing back and forth on. Yeah, absolutely. They're like the Magna saves where they're not like a Black Knight 2000. They're, like, where you just hold, they're only active while you're holding the button. And it's just so much fun to be able to kind of like tap it and like get like you just get crazy action out of them. It's a lot of fun. The game rules itself are pretty basic. You really like playing that bagatelle a lot or hitting targets to like spot the bagatelle letters.
    15:30
    And then you get the drop targets or on a timer. Yeah, it's got some cool stuff. The hurry up drops. It's just kind of a weird one when you explain it to people. You're like, what do you do? And you're like, I don't really know. It's just fun. You try to save the ball with the Magna saves. And I actually enjoy it quite a bit. It's a pretty fun game. Yeah, that's how I would describe it. It's pretty fun. Yeah. I'm not like this is the best game of all time, but I'm like, it's pretty fun. It's pretty fun. It's another one that's always cheap.
    15:54
    Solar Fire, also 1981, sold 800 units. And what's interesting about this is that Barry said he thinks it's one of his best layouts and games. So now we're getting to one of his low production. Very low. 800 units in this time is weird. To the point where, do you know, did he mention, is there any story about this one? He's just saying how, you know, I mean, you're aware, we do this podcast, it's full steam ahead in 1980, into the first half of 1981, and then afterwards, it's like right downhill, pinball almost shudders. I did not, yeah, duh, we do this podcast, I should know, 1981, it's Pac-Man. Miss Pac came out at that point in Galaga, the class of 81, and it's like, that's when everyone just quit buying pins. And it sort of felt like turning a faucet off. It's kind of crazy to see. You're like, things were good one year ago. Yeah. And you're like, man, dude, to just think that the industry can just change that fast overnight is nuts. This is a game that I've played once or twice, and I don't really recall it. It looks rad. It's got a cool art package. I know AJ in our Discord is always talking about how much he loves it. There's a run here that we're coming up to where Barry, despite being famous for selling lots of games, he was also the only guy left at Williams for a couple years. Even Steve left briefly, and he was the only working designer, Barry was, and he put out a couple very rare production games that are arguably his best work. Arguably some of his best work, and the people that are lucky enough to have them. For sure, some of his best early, like his solid state, single level games are really rare, which is a bummer. Yeah, but this next one, you know, Barakora in 1981, he sold 2,350 units. This is kind of famous because Roger always talks about this being his game. And Barry said that it was originally based on a sketch by Roger Sharp and Roger Sharp's friend Steve Epstein. They created Papa together way back in the day. Steve was an old school operator on the Broadway Arcade in New York City, but Barry said he completely reworked the whole game and actually didn't keep very much of their sketch into the final design because he was there to make a real game. Yeah. As he said. Like, he's like. Yeah, you're like, you're just going to start moving shit around and be like, this doesn't fit there. That doesn't do that when you actually take it from a sketch to real life. So, I don't know. Roger seems to consider it his, but. Didn't Roger say, he's like, there's not much of mine left in there, but he's still kind of like, I know he owns one. Yeah, so do with that information what you will. Either way, it's an interesting collaboration. This is kind of, what do you think about Barracura? I think it's an interesting game. I think the art package is cool. It was supposed to be Barracuda. Baracuda, marketing decided to change the name to Baracuda because Doug Watson sort of ripped off sort of that image of the woman kind of with the fish and sort of readapted it. So they decided to name her Cora instead of it being Baracuda. Hell yeah, dude, that was a good decision. Baracuda sounds sick. I really like this game. Yeah It one of the Williams games I not a massive fan of how these Williams this era flips compared to like the Bally and Sterns and stuff I just don like the hardware as much This is one I love to own a Barakora It got a really interesting bizarre rule set It got those stacked double lanes that drive me insane Yeah The double lane rollover like movable letters is so hard for my brain for some reason It's hard on John Wick too, which is like, it's hilarious that it's still like, I'm like, oh, I gotta think, which I really like when you're just watching, like when you're trying to get lanes lined up. I like that the lane spelling isn't a gimme like it is on every other game. Yeah. And so I'm like, I like that alone. And then it's like a fun multi-ball game. You gotta get the drops in order. I think it's hilarious that they doubled up the R's because the drops don't last match Barracora. So it's like you're spelling Barracora, but you get a little piece of it for free. Yeah. I really like Barracora. It's a pretty popular game, and it always seems to be like a tournament sweetheart. Yeah. They run into a lot of tourneys. It's a popular game, for sure. Yep. It's definitely, it's probably one of the more common for 2300 units, highly regarded Barry Solid States. Next game, 1982, was Defender. Only sold 369 units. See, that's fucked up. That's like makes me think that like something happened. They canceled it because it's based off of a big video game. Yeah, but the problem is, is there people aren't buying the video game. And they weren't buying the pin, they were buying the video game Defender. And it was based on the Smash Hit Williams arcade game, very designed. Joe Kamenkao is also credited as kind of co-designer. He was working at Williams for a short stint. That's why I'm getting so good. My buddy Joe Kamenkao, my personal hero. Alex's personal hero. Joe Kamenkao is involved. This shit is way cooler than I wish it was because it's really expensive. And it's a really fun, I really like it. It's a very fun game. You never get to see it. We know a listener to the show who maybe has one in storage and maybe will let us bring it out on the floor at some point. That would be interesting. It would be very interesting for anyone that's into cool, rare games. Yeah, 369 units made in 1982. That's a rare bird. Yeah, who knows how many are actually really left. Ten? Yeah, maybe 50. It's kind of funny. You're like, yeah, when you get that old, you're like, yeah, that's not very many. I bet. After that, another rare game, although it's a lot more popular than Defenders, Cosmic Gunfight. It's also 1982. Sold 1,000 units. It was originally called Dragonfly. This game's also cool as hell, man. Barry's on a run with these three. Yeah, this is cool. He's making very cool, very weird games. And another regular who has a Cosmic Gunfight, the nicest one I have ever played. Yeah, nothing's nice. It's so nice. I saw pictures and it did look very nice. And so I really like this game as well. I think it's a funny one because it has like a little bit of everything. It has like different types of like lanes and stuff. It's just it's a fun one. It's got drops. It's got a multiball. I don't like the cosmic timer at the end. It confuses the hell out of everybody. Well, and that's the classic. That's the, you know, Black Knight did it. So they're going to do it in this, right? Like back. You get like bonus time at the end of your three balls. And it's just like if you earn it, it's cool. It's all in theory, and I wouldn't mind it if I owned the game at home at all, but it does confuse everybody walks away from it, and then you play somebody else's ball, and it just, it really confuses people. Yeah. Anytime they kind of fuck with, like, three balls and EBS being really obvious, it confuses everybody, and this is a good example of that. Very cool game, though. Really cool theme and artwork. Yeah, dude. It's like Space Cowboys riding space horses. Yeah. It's so good. Just like that, that alone makes it like, I'm like, that's a top-notch game just because like Space Cowboy shit, man. It's fun as hell. The next game is Joust, 1983, based on another Williams Arcade game. Sold 400 units, and if you've never seen one of these, it's a head-to-head, it's two pinball machines, you know, sort of back-to-back. It's like a big flat table. And you're playing against a second player. You have to have a second player to play against. So it's a mandatory two-player game. Yeah, it doesn't have the single-player mode like the LVNG soccer head-to-head. Yeah. So obviously it didn't do well in the marketplace because it took up a lot of floor space at an arcade. Pinball was already dying, and it required two people to play. So, you know, and Pinball traditionally has had multiplayer capabilities, but the vast majority of games are played single-player. So, yeah, it doesn't really do much for an operator. It has the potential to earn twice as fast, right? It does. I can't remember how long it plays. Yeah, because you actually are playing concurrently. Super fun idea in theory, in reality. I've been on the podcast saying, I think I've said it on the podcast before, that I've tried so many times to play head-to-head pens and I never could. I always see them broken. I've seen three or four different head-to-head pens and I never had a chance to play one. But now I have. I had played that with the homebrew that's now kind of a production game or whatever at Pintastic. I'm blanking on the name, the new one. But I finally played a Joust at VFW this past spring, and it's a head-to-head pinball machine. It sounds like more fun than it is. You see why these didn't really take off despite a few different companies trying them. I do think it's fun if you've got a buddy that's in the mood, but then you're like, it's not really. I don't know. It's kind of a one-and-done thing. What I'm always surprised by is games should be... The problem is, is, like, how do you make it? It should be like air hockey, right? Like, ideally, you should be trying to shoot past, you know, your opponent's goal. Yeah, and that's what they... Do they do that in this one? Kind of. I mean, that's the thing. Can you shoot it directly? I'm getting mixed up with the Alvin G. Soccer, because I played that at the same time. And I liked the soccer one more than Joust, which is a bummer. Because Joust is a cool theme based off the arcade game. It looks rad. The other problem with these joust cabinets is that they seem to break a lot and they must be a pain in the ass to keep running. Yeah, I mean, they're old. Yeah, I do have to tell if it's just like, yeah, you never know because there's not a lot of them. So the people that bring them to the shows, you're like, do you know what you're doing or it's hard to tell? There's like a local operator with one, but half their games, they don't really keep old games running at all. Yeah. So it's like, of course, their joust doesn't work. Yep. And so it's always hard to tell. It's a bummer. It took me forever to play one. It is fun. Like, I like the idea of playing head to head. It's just like I still think I'm like, eh, people can do it better. The new modern one I played at Pintastic, I'm blanking on the name, was more fun than this. Yeah. So I'm like, there's room for improvement. Cool idea. I can see why I didn't take off. Next game in 1983 is Time Fantasy. This is another rare one. Sold 600 units. Hell yeah, dude. Time Fantasy. I love this fucking game, dude. Final Fantasy is a snail-based game. Psychedelic space snail. Yeah, it's like a druggie snail-looking game. It was like a design practice. It was supposed to be a low-budget, street-level game. Pinball wasn't doing well. They wanted to make something as cheap as possible with as few moving parts as possible, as few switches, as few everything. It's as pared down as pinball could be, and as a result, as a direct result of trying to make it as cheap as possible, this game rules. Because it turns out, all of that shit just slows pinball down. Yeah, it's a very fun game. There's one main objective, which is to get into snail time. You gotta get into snail time. I love that it has these two little rails up to a stand-up target that's elevated. Oh yeah, it's at the street level, but it has a fake ramp. Dude, it's like a dead-end little ramp. It's so fun. It's a fun game. Got an awesome art package. I absolutely love this game. Time Fantasies, yeah, it really is. Like, it's something special and it's just funny because you're like, you could make this homebrew with like so, as a homebrew with so little farts. And what sucks about it is, you know, it sucks because it's rare so you won't see it. Like, I would love to have one of these. Yeah. If one pops up, hey, if somebody's got a Time Fantasy they want to sell, let us know. I would love to buy one too. So, yeah, it's a cool game and it's just goofy. It's fun. And the next one is even more rare. 1984. This game is called Starlight. Sold 100 units. I've actually never I've played this game once at a show, but I played it literally one time at a show like 12 or 13 years ago. I've watched a Twitch streamer and, you know, regular in our Discord, BorgDog, play it quite a bit because he is one of the lucky ones. 100. There's probably, like, legitimately there's probably like 20 of these left at this point. And he's got a copy and it looks awesome. Here's a little tip for you people that are like, man, I'd love a Starlight. It's just laser ball in a narrow body. Yep. It's like the same shit. It's like the rules might be different, but it's like the shot, like it's just laser ball in a narrow body, which is why it looks so rad. Because, like, laser ball is a pretty cool game, but it's just that huge Williams wide body. Yeah, that's huge. But it's also got a really good art package. The art package is insane. Space Wizard with his, like, giant dragonfly companion looking through a telescope, right? It's so cool. It's such a good one. These are worth a lot of money. People like them. They're kind of like, it's a special game. And they're exceptionally rare, which hurts the price. But it's a cool one. I'd love to chance to play one of these. I have never seen one in real life, just on stream. So that's a pretty good fucking run. Just looking at that, if you ignore Joust, which is an outlier, You go Barracord, Defender, Cosmic Gunfight, Time Fantasy, Starlight. That's phenomenal. Surely he's not going to follow that up with just a dud game that I have no personal interest in playing. No, of course not, because in 1984 he releases Space Shuttle. Barry said Space Shuttle was chosen because this actually came out before Starlight, even though Starlight was done first. He said that the head of Williams said that if the next game that they made wasn't a big hit, then they were just going to shut down the pinball division entirely. And so they chose to push Space Shuttle ahead of Starlight, which is probably why Starlight got such a small run. That's why, yeah. And, you know, it's the first Williams game with plastic ramps and a big toy on the playfield of the Space Shuttle. Yep. It's also remarkable because it was a smash hit. It sold 7,000 units, considered a game that saved pinball at Williams because they were literally told like, hey, if this game's not a hit, we're shutting it down. And then he gave him a hit. At this point, Williams kind of was like carrying pinball. Like Gottlieb was getting passed around like a fucking sack of potatoes, right? They had changed hands so many times in the mid 80s. Coca-Cola, Paramount, like everyone's just kind of like buying Gottlieb, doesn't know what to do with it. Stern Electronics has tried to make the shittiest game of all time with Meteor, or not Meteor, Jesus Christ. Go ahead at that. Orbiter, Orbiter. Oh, wow. Shocking development. Stern's trying everything. Everybody's trying to do goofy pinball-adjacent stuff, like Hyperball and all that kind of shit. Nothing's working. It does not look good for pinball. And Barry Ousler makes Space Shuttle, and they get a big plastic toy that's non-interactive. It's just a big molded space shuttle that goes under the glass and just sits there. It doesn't do anything, right? Yep. That's my recollection. But it also is, you know, it's the first Williams games with plastic ramps and the first time you have a big sculpted. The first big plastic toy under the glass, it changes everything. If you're into pinball nowadays, you understand the obsession that pinball players have with molded plastic toys that can literally do nothing. I'm looking at Sega Godzilla with its football-sized Godzilla head right now. And I'm like, hell yeah, dude, we wouldn't have that if it wasn't for Space Shuttle. So despite me not loving this game, it does very well for 1984. It's the hit that they needed. It saves the division at Williams, which probably saves pinball in its entirety. I mean, it's always hard to say. Maybe somebody would have tried it in a year again or whatever. But realistically, it's like, yeah, there's a reason this is the game that saved pinball and people know that. It's crazy. It's also his first game with what will become kind of his calling card. My favorite feature in games. Yeah, this is his first game with a center ramp.
    32:11
    Yeah, and it does well. And it does well. You can see the effects of what happens when you put something in a game and it does well. You see a lot more of it. And you see that the next year with Comet, his next game in 1985, sells even more copies, 8,100 units, and it's his first game with Python Angelo. First collaboration with the legendary maniac Python Angelo. Barry says that Comet was completely his concept, despite what Python likes to say about the matter, and it is also his second center ramp game. I bet people were sick of Cinder Ramps just like me and it probably didn't do well, right? I sold 8,100 units, dude. Spawned a trilogy.
    32:53
    Yeah, it did really good. It did really, really good and everyone loved it. And you see these things all over the place still because they sold a lot of them for this era. It's one of the more common Williams games from the pre-System 11s you see.
    33:07
    And I played it recently and I'm like, I think there's some, I mean, there's some fun to be had there. There's a reason they sold some units. It's a fun theme. It's fun to look at and stuff. It's not for me. You guys all know. If you listen to this show, you probably know my feelings on Center Rams. And this is an egregious one. I will say, though, it doesn't feed back to a flipper. It kind of spits it. It's a really funny feed. It spits it back into the launch lane. It's like a gate. With a 45-degree angle one-way gate that it bounces off of. So the ball kind of comes out of there out of control, which is why I'm like, I bet you could tune one of these to be pretty fun. And I know Boston Pops crew, they've got one. So I'm like, I'd love to play their copy because they have a they got a way of making bad games way more fun. You know, that's kind of what they pride themselves on. Well, they have their worst cut out for them on some of these Barry games. Yeah, some of them are tough. But the next game right afterwards is Grand Lizard 1986. This game only sells two thousand seven hundred fifty units and Barry himself called it a, quote, filler game. He said he sort of reworked his Solar Fire layout to make Grand Lizard just instead of making it a single level. He added the ramps to get up there, right? No, he took the ramps off of it. Oh, yeah. Solar Fire is a split level game. Duh. Yeah, and so now it's a single level play field even though it kind of plays like a split level. Yeah. It plays like an upper play field game even though it's not. I really like Grand Lizard. I love the theme and stuff. I know it had the Paul Faris artwork that got taken away. I think even as is, I agree, the Paul Ferris art package is way sicker. I think as is, it's still fun. Like the art package is still fun. And I think the game itself is very fun. And the sounds make it, man. There's just good monkey and jungle sounds. It's a fucking good time. Yeah, it's a fun game. We've had one on the floor at Wedge. We need to get it back out. But yeah. Portland Ty loves it, you know. Yeah, Ty Palmer loves it. Is it a System 11? Are we still pre-System 11? No, that's a System 11. 2011? Yeah, we're in 86. Yeah, man, that's some good shit. Yeah, and the next game is Pinbot, also in 1986, sold 12,000 units. And supposedly this was Python, had the concept for a pinball robot with flippers for fingers, and then Barry crafted the game around the character and worked with Joe Juice Jr. to bring the big mechanical bank and visor to life. This game's special for a lot of reasons. Again, this also spawned a trilogy and is probably most famous for being the first game with a big interactive mech in a pinball machine, which is Pinbot's visor and moving like target bank to light locks in his visor and all that kind of stuff. It's like a state-changing mech. Yes. And it was successful and unlike most of Barry's big successes, this is a good game. Yeah, it's a very good game. Obviously people like all of his games. I mean, there's fans for all of it, but I'm like, this is one I like. I'm like, Pinball holds up. The hard part is that they remade it. They remade it coming up, and we'll talk about it when we get there. But Pinball on its own still holds up, still a fun game. They pop up for pretty good deals because they made a lot of them, and it looks cool. It's just a cool vibe. It's got a topper. Yep, which is important to Alex. It's why it sold well, man. I mean, it sold a lot, had a topper, not a coincidence. After that, we get fire. I was waiting for this. I know Alex loves this game. Personally, 1987, sold 8,000 units over two editions. Yeah, the game's so nice, they made it twice. This game's famous because it's also the birthplace of the Williams Cow Easter Egg. Starts with this game. Oh. So if you know deep, deep, deep pinball nerddom, starting in the 80s and through the 90s, The programmers at Williams started putting cows or cow sounds or cow animations into the different pinball machines that have nothing to do with cows. And they use them as Easter eggs. It was like kind of a big inside joke. Nobody likes to talk about what it means to them or who started it necessarily. But the first time it's in a game is in fire. Yeah, makes sense. And it's thematic in fire because it's supposedly based on the actual story about the famous Chicago fire that it was supposedly started and a cow got spooked, kicked over a gas lamp in a barn, started the fire. So that's why it has cow sounds. How many people died in the Chicago fire? I'm sure a lot. It's a funny theme for a game. It's a tragedy. Well, it's just like your 9-11 game that you're always dying to make. Yeah, if somebody makes a 9-11 game, you can be like, there's precedent. There was a Chicago Fire game and nobody cared. What's weird is when you go to Chicago, it's such a big part. They talk about it all the time because they redid all the roads. They changed their whole downtown. Like take an old city and modernize it. And what's funny is like they're very proud of what they do with it, which they should be. Chicago's a beautiful city. It's just funny how it's like you're like, yeah, it's based on this like tragedy. Yeah, it's a very bizarre theme for a pinball machine. Yeah. Very, very bizarre. But the game itself, we're going to talk about the game itself.
    38:17
    And it is just wacky, dude. It's like it looks unlike like the artwork is bizarre. It's got like actual like molded buildings and stuff all over it. It's a symmetrical layout with two ramps on each side. Two of like two of those ramps are real. And two of them are like arching ramps to dead ends that you just hit and then the ball bounces back down And then it got a center ramp that pops up which I got to say that a good execution of center ramp because it like it thematic It the ladder going up It not there all the time I OK with that center ramp Honestly, it's kind of funny. It's one of the center ramp games that the problem to me is in center ramp. It's that's symmetrical and I just don't like how it shoots. I think it's ugly. It's got the bell that rings that I think is annoying. I don't love it. People like this game and it's really weirdly popular. It's very thematic and Barry said he wanted it to be like the fire spreads. You got to hit the targets around the playfield to put out the fire. If you wait too long in between, it spreads to the target next to it so it gets harder to put out over time. I think it's a game that's not without its charm. I don't, it's not a personal favorite of mine either. I think I hate it a lot less than you hate it. For sure. My hate is basically, I'm like, I just think it's ugly. Godzilla is like mostly, you know, I played it recently and I tried to play, you know, approach it with an open heart. And I was like, it's like I can see why people like it. It's fun. I just my big gripe, the dead end ramps feel like shit. It's symmetrical and I think it's ugly. Yeah. But if you put aside all of that, you're like, I mean, yeah, it's a game about a fire, which is cool. And, you know, if we're keeping count at home, this is the third center ramp game from Barry. Yeah, yeah, that's important to note. After that, we get Space Station. He follows up, you know, it's a sequel to Space Shuttle. Space Station, 1987, it sells 3,800 units, and this game's cool as hell. It's dope, dude. It's really cool. This is one of my, maybe my, I think it's my second favorite Barry Oussler game. It's notable because it's a System 11 game without an Italian bottom. Yep. That is, the slings, they don't have inlates. The slings are directly above the flippers. There's a little bit of space between them. But yeah, it's an interesting lower third, which makes this game very cool. And then on top of that, it's a cool game with some hurry-up shots and drops blocking ramps. It's cool. Again, I think Barry has kind of a history where it's like his big hits mostly aren't my favorite of his games. I don't want to say I'm trying really hard to not say they're just bad objectively, but it's like for me, his big hits I don't think have aged as well. And I think there's a reason for that. I think he was driving the market with a lot of them. So other people bit those ideas and then we saw them refined and done better elsewhere. And it's like the novel stuff when the novelty is gone, it's not, you know, there's not much there. Whereas like Space Shuttle, Space Station, I'm like, this game's really good. Space Station is so dope. It is a, to me it's really, like, this is a special berry game. It's also cool because he has a big plastic toy in there, but it's interactive this time. It spins around. Yep. Moves balls. It's a diverter, right? Moves the ball, yep. Yeah, good game. That's a really good one. I'd really, like, there's one in local and I keep being like, oh, should I buy it? I think it might be gone now. It's okay. That's how life goes. But I do like this game a lot. And then right afterwards, he goes into Cyclone 1988, sells 9,400 units, smash hit another Python Angelo and Bill Futsenruder collab. It's his fourth center ramp, Barry Game, and the first time that the center ramp is loopable. Yeah, yeah, that's where we, like, that's where it's like, oh man, we've created a monster here. With the loopable center ramp where you can just sit there and it has like a brr-brr-brr-brr like it keeps building up to get you points and so you can like kind of like that's like a not a horrible strat is to just sit there and loop the center ramp over and over because it's a safe shot.
    42:20
    Smash hit. Horrible feed out of there because it's like the multi-tiered it drops onto the other one so the ball comes back to you nice and slow. I don't care for this game. It was a again another smash hit. Almost 10,000 units, man, in 88. That's impressive. People like these carnival games and they like center ramps. Yep. After that, we get Jokers also in 1988. Sells 5,400 units. So not quite a smash, but still a lot more than Space Station, you know, a lot more than Grand Lizard. A lot more than Defender. Yeah. A lot more than Starlight. Yeah, man. And I this is the one that I'm just like, I hate this shit.
    43:04
    So this is Python again, even though John Yowse did most of the final art package. Yeah, he did like that. This is when Python starts getting into like his like art director. Yeah, like he's just kind of like, oh, draw the big guy playing cards and little guys on the table. And you're like, what the hell? What was Python's contribution? I don't know, man. Probably some pencil sketches and then like dipping out of work for three months. Like, it's so bizarre in this era trying to tell how he got his credits because there's not really any sign of Python other than the fact that this game's goofy. And you're like, okay. And yeah, it's a center ramp game. It does go up and down, which is good. But even the disappearing center ramp, I just can't save this one. I really don't like how this game looks. I don't like how it shoots. I don't like the noises. I've never bothered learning the rules. Maybe someone could win me over. It's the fifth center ramp game. Yeah. But it won't be the last because the year after, 1989, we get police force. So 4,750 units. Python and Yossi did the art again as a collaboration. Barry said that Mark Ritchie and him designed the playfield together. Actually, as a true collaboration designed the playfield together. Wow, two of my favorite designers. And yeah, this game's okay. What you get is the sixth center ramp game and the second loopable center ramp game. For some reason, this one, I'm like, we played it relatively recently. It's probably a year ago now. But when we did our System 11 episode or something, me and you played it at Next Level. And I was like, I kind of, there's something to that game. And part of it's I like the character designs on it and stuff. Our package is cool. I think this is one that with the right setup, I might be like, this game's pretty fun. I think this of the games of his that I actively dislike, this is the one that I think has the most potential. I think what you would have to do is... I haven't played one I like yet. If you cut, if you took a jigsaw and you cut the return like two inches from the in lane off so it didn't feed directly to it, it fed towards the in lane but not into it, maybe it would be fun. I think a lot of center ramp games, if you just made a custom ramp return for them so they're not like loopable, would immediately be better. So I'm like, yeah, I think, I do think this thing has some potential though even without serious modification, I think just set up if you played one mean. And I'm like, I bet it could be fun. It seems kind of like it could be fun. You know, same year, 1989, we get Bad Cats, which we did a Die in the Hill episode for a long time ago. It has kind of a split reputation. Sold 2,500 units. Yeah, it has a price tag that disagrees with its overall, like, reputation. It's an expensive game, and that's probably because it's an awesome theme. You know, cats who are bad. And a really crazy art package from Python that's like very funny and just interesting to look at. And it's just a really unique game for that alone. Has an all-time incredible audio package. It's got such good sounds in it. It's got a good center ramp on there too, though. Yeah, it's his seventh center ramp game and the third loopable center ramp game. Yeah, he's really getting good at making loopable center ramps now. And this one also, with its stock rules, you can exploit it. And that kind of breaks the game. The nice part about this, and I assume there are updated ROMs for other games, but Bad Cats, I can at least confirm that there's an updated ROM set that makes looping the center ramp worthless. Right. And it's like, with that in play, once you realize that, you're like, okay, I have no more motive to do that, then the game's fun again. And I think even with that out, it's like, just don't do that. It's like one of those situations, you're like, well, don't do the thing that makes it not fun, because this game is really fun. Without that. And, you know, it was a Python concept as well. It was his concept of just having... Yeah, man, you can tell. Yeah, yeah. It's, like, just kind of, like, a weird... We've talked about this game a lot, but it's just hilarious, and it's so good. And there's, like, realistic cat depictions, and there's, like, cartoon cat depictions, and then there's, like, anthropomorphic cat depictions. It's an insane, like, all kinds of cats every which way. There's like there's hot cats. There's like normal cats. You're like, what is going on here? It's very bizarre. It's full of like Easter eggs and stuff. It's a really fun art package. I love it. Yeah, it's a very interesting game. You know, Barry tells a funny story where he ended up selling his personal copy of that game to a member of Motley Crue, but could not remember what it was the drummer Tommy Lee or the singer Vince Neil, although he couldn't remember either of their names.
    47:39
    That's a good Barry story. Yeah, I thought I'd include it. I mean, that's part of, these are part of the stories he tells in this TopCast interview. If you want to hear more, please go listen to that. That's like a very, you're like, what? And it's just hilarious. He's like, I can't remember who, but it was one of those Motley Crue fans. I like how he also was like, it's either the singer or the drummer. I was like, all right, man. You're like, shit, could it be the guitarist? Who knows? That's a good time, man. That's funny. You're looking bad cats of all games to be selling to them. Okay, from there, we do something, we get some weird shit. This is Harley Davidson from Bally, 1991. It sells 2,200 units. It was made to compete with Gottlieb's brief success they found with their street-level games. This is the last street-level game we see from Bally Williams. Ramps means there is no ramps for anybody that's unfamiliar with that term. It's almost symmetrical, not really, because there's banks, there are different angles and stuff. It's a pretty basic layout. They made it to be approachable. A tavern game, one could say, and I actually really fucking like this game a lot. I know you do. I'm like, weirdly, I'm like, I really like Bally's Heart. Because we had it on the floor at Wedge during COVID. No. Yes. That's where I played it? Yes. Man, I only had it in one of the pods. Funny. Does Rhodes still have his? That I don't know. I guess I did know that, yeah, because I had thought about renting it from him at some point. Because I'm like, I know my father-in-law, well, I thought he would like it, but it turns out he likes newer and newer games than I expect, like being an old man. And I just like it. I think it shoots really nice. I think the rule set's like a fun one, just kind of like you can figure out what you're doing pretty quick, but it's not that easy of a game. This is another one that I think if you set this thing up mean, it would be like a really good game. Yep. Every time I've played one, I've enjoyed it, so it's not saying it needs tweaks, but I think if this was set up so it doesn't play too long, it would be as good as any highly regarded solid state. I think people just don't like it because it's got kind of a goofy-looking gal laying there on the motorcycle in the middle.
    49:41
    It's an interesting depiction. I will say, no matter how you feel about it, it's definitely not the worst Harley-Davidson pinball machine. Oh, dude, it is like, this is legitimately a good game, in my opinion. The other one's kind of like a guilty pleasure for both of us, I think, the Stern Sega. But this one's good. If you get a chance to play this thing, please do. It's actually a surprising game. Next game is in 1991. It sold 4,400 units. It's Hurricane. Yeah, everyone's favorite DMD game, right? And he's right back, completing the trilogy, but without Python this time. It's his eighth center ramp game and fourth loopable center ramp. So this is the one, this is probably the cheapest Valley Williams DMD game. You ever see the cheapest WPC game that ever pops up? I don't know, who was, was Zoe saying she kind of likes it? She says she had fun playing it. She got stuck in a snowstorm and this was like the only game she had access to for it. And so she played it for like an entire day or something. And so she's like, I've got it. But it's like, that's the only kind of story you ever hear about somebody enjoying her again. Yeah, it'd be like you're locked in a prison cell. Yeah, it's like, it's like, oh, yeah. Like if this was the only pinball machine that existed, would you still have fun playing pinball? And you're like, yeah. Turns out Bally Williams couldn't make something that horrible yet. Yeah. They hadn't developed the technology. I would say that, spoiler, neither Alex or myself like this game at all. I think we both think it's awful. Yeah. I think most people also think it's awful. But what I think is interesting is it is not the worst Williams-Barry game that Alex has played, and we'll get to that very soon. But not quite yet. Not quite yet. No, man. This is where it's the roller coaster, you know, like it has high highs and low lows, and that's what makes Barry so interesting. Yep, because in 1992 he makes Doctor Who sell 7,750 units. That's a strong seller for a shit theme. Whoa. Well, really, they must have been selling. I know they did Doctor Who because they're trying to target Europe, but it's like, was Europe buying games en masse? That's a lot more. Europe was a bigger market than the U.S. Really? Yeah. That's impressive. I've said this to you many times on the show. Normally Europeans don't really have good taste in anything, so it's surprising they like pinball. So this was a joint design with Bill Foots and Reuter since they were both big fans of Doctor Who, the theme, which how he says is shit. Well, I mean, it's nerdy. Barry said he has seen every episode of the show, and this was also Linda Deal's first lead on a game's art package. Isn't there like lost episodes of Doctor Who? Yes. So Barry's a liar?
    52:25
    I mean, I'm just saying. He might have been a big enough nerd to have tracked me down. Yeah, he might have been. He's like, I saw it live. Uh, Foots wanted to design his own game supposedly but kind of got into the weeds and Barry came in to help make it all work. I think originally there was thoughts that Foots and Reuter was gonna like actually do the physical design as well as the programming. Interesting. Ended up being a joint thing and Foots did the software. This is also interesting because it's the first Barry game with lightning flippers. For that alone, I mean, I gotta love it because it's just, you know, it's sick to see. Lightning's on something and they look very cool. I actually like this game a lot. I have no idea what the rules are, which is really embarrassing considering it's like a fairly common WPC game. So like there's no excuse for me to not know the rules. I just have I don't know. You have to pick a doctor. It's confusing, but I really like the toy. I really, really like the repeatable upper flipper loop shot. Yeah, I mean, he's going to give you one of them, dude. And it's fun in the big, what's the pinball level two toy called? The Time Expander. Dude, the Time Expander is a good. One of the most impressive mechs of all time. It's got warnings all over the bottom of the playfield not to cut your fingers off in it. Yeah. Because that thing can, nothing's stopping that thing. He was saying that it would snap pencils when they were testing it. I believe it. It's cool for anyone that's not seen this game. It's like a bank of targets. And then it goes up and there's like little doors and it's just got a lot of cool shit going on. It's a really rad mech. And I think it's a fun game too. Well, you should tell yourself that and go check your pinball ranker list because you have it very low. I do? Very low. It's one that I haven't gone out of my way to re-rank. So if it didn't pop up like more than once or twice, they fall in there. It's very low. How low do I have it on there? Pretty fucking low, dude. Like in the 400s? Yeah. Like no excuse. It's not like, I don't want to pretend it's like, it's probably not going to be in my top 100 ever, but it should be at least around 200 in my opinion. I think Doctor Who's very, very fun. It is sort of considered sort of like a B or C list Bally Williams game, but it's got a lot of good shit in it. It's also got an awesome topper, the Dalek. Yeah, which was supposed to move and turned out didn't. It screams and that's good enough for me, man. Megan, the first time she heard that thing going, we were in like a fairly quiet bar. That had it. It started going. Exterminate. She could not keep the vault. She just was dying. Because it's like, yeah, it's funny. That's a really good topper. Well, the next game after Doctor Who was 1993 Bram Stoker's Dracula sells 6,800 units. His second game with lightning flippers. And I think this is the only Barry game that gets actual and near universal respect amongst modern pinheads. It was supposed to be Alien 3 and the game was already basically done, but he described it as they changed a bunch of stuff in the script and for some reason they decided not to move forward with the game or whatever. They must have not had confidence in the movie.
    55:42
    It's not like Johnny Mnemonic. This one's going to be bad. It's not a hit like Johnny or The Shadow. So they switched it to Bram Stoker's Dracula and he said also that the Miss Multiball, his idea for that was because even back in the day they were always getting feedback where people were convinced that there were magnets in the game affecting the ball. So he wanted to design a feature that was front and center, showstopper, absolutely a magnet is controlling this ball. Here it is. This is what you guys think is happening. Here it is. So, Bram Stoker's Dracula, I think, is probably the best game of all time. And that's why I'm like, if I hated every other Barry Auzler game ever made, which I don't, but if I hated every other Barry Auzler game ever made, and I just love BSD as much as I do, he'd still be one of my top designers. Because I'm like, this game's so, so fucking good. And it's just like a multi-ball stack. Like, the rules are simple as hell. And I'm like, that's, I think to me, and it's a hard two-ramp game. The right ramp's pretty friendly, the left ramp, Barry had a way with his ramps of just matching them to the flipper power, where it's like, you need a clean hit. It's not a gimme. That's what's missing, that's the big difference in Stern games from Bally Williams to me, is that Stern games, if your ball goes into the front of an entrance, it's gonna make it a good game. All the way around the ramp. The flippers have so much power, you can't fail a shot unless you really fuck up. But like, this game, you need a clean shot. Even on like a rebuilt snappy copy, you need a clean shot to hit that left ramp. And I don't know, it's like not much on paper. The game's really not anything that crazy. It's like it's a three bank of targets in the middle, it's two ramps, it's like an orbit shot in a weird lock. The missed multiball is the best mech of all time in pinball, in my opinion. I think a lot of us, it's kind of like a common hot take, you know? A lot of us kind of are like, oh, that's like one of the coolest mechs in pinball, even though it's not really like an outright big flashy mech. It's one of the best singular moments in pinball history. It's amazing, too, because you always knew what you're supposed to do, even if you see it for the first time. You're like, I gotta hit the fucking ball. I gotta hit that ball. It also just feels like magic. And like you see like to this day when you had like Bram Stoker on the floor at Wedge you see little kids lose their fucking mind when they see Mist happen for the first time Like it insane I never seen a mech I never seen anyone do that except for NASCAR I never seen a child react the same way as when they saw a Myst multiball which is really telling You're like, they fucking nailed it. Yeah, man, it's the best. I really think it's, I think this is probably like the encapsulation to me of like, this is where pinball should have landed. I think it's like the perfect medium between like a fast playing meme game with like enough depth to keep you coming back and stuff. If you think there's not enough to do in this game, you're playing a game that's set up too easy. That's not how it should be. You shouldn't be getting two billion on a regular game. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because that's a complaint that it's like, yeah, you can you can find copies of these with like full length flippers on there and no tilt and like, you know, friendly outlanes and everything. And you're like, yeah, then the game falls apart. That happens on every game when people set them up poorly. If you play a properly set up Bram Stoker's, I think there's like no better pinball than that. Well, I mean, you know, everything's debatable, right? Like, I love this game. It's also my favorite Barry game. But some people would say that maybe it's the game he follows it up with is maybe actually his best game of all time, which is 1994's Popeye Saves the Earth. Dude, this is the encapsulation of the duality of Barry. Yes. Going from Bram Stoker's, which is like a pared down, just perfect, no nonsense, like it's a serious theme, but it's like all like, and then you go to Popeye Saves the Earth. They sold 4,200 units of it, but it's famously a game where distributors were being forced to buy these games if they wanted their allotments of popular games like Mortal Kombat, NBA Jam, or much better Pinball Machines. They were forced to buy Popeye. The story goes, like, if you wanted, like, you know, Twilight Zone, you had to buy a Popeye too, right? But then they overproduced Twilight Zone and that became its own thing, which is funny. But it's like, yeah, they wouldn't give you the shit you wanted until you bought a Popeye.
    60:07
    It's such a funny way to move games. Steve Ritchie himself went out of his way to write a whole mini essay about why he thinks Popeye is a terrible game. Really? And I'll link it in the show notes for anyone that wants to read it. That's like really rare for people to dog on someone else's work. It's very funny, but it's also, I 100% agree with Steve. It's ironic. No surprise. It's ironic because it almost looks like he made a sequel to this game with his newest. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Barry is extremely clear, though, that this is Python's project first and foremost. He made it, he made it pretty clear in his TopCast interview. Have you seen the sketch for it from Python? He made Python's vision come to life.
    60:55
    And that's why Barry was a team player. He would always take the last minute projects. He would always do the little like, oh, let's squeak one in before we got to run this quick before the next game comes out, whatever. He always picked up. He did the street level Harley. He'd always do that kind of goofy shit. And like Popeye, I think, was just like him being like, hey, we'll make a game for Python. And that's what he said was that, you know, the management at Williams, they just love Python. They did. They really let Python have a long leash, and you can see how that leash can get wrapped around your neck.
    61:28
    This game, this is the one that I keep saying because I respect the Pops crew. I trust Ty's opinion on games. I do not trust Daniel's opinion on games. I hope he hears this. I don't trust his opinion. I trust Ty's opinion on games, though. And Ty keeps saying, like, this could be good. Like, it's good. It can be good. And I've only played the copy at next level. You don't see these. There's a reason you don't see these. It's also... Because it wasn't rare. No, it's not particularly rare. It's an interesting game. It's got a lot of interesting ideas. That's the best way I can say it. Wow, you're saying this really nice. We'll wrap this up at the end of the episode and we can talk more about it. It almost feels like if Spooky made a Bally Williams game. Yeah, it's very spooky. It's full of interesting things and a big upper play field. Mm-hmm. I always have fond memories because when I was first playing pinball, this was one of the games I played. And the first game I got my first grand champion score on location on. Wow, that's why you like it so much. I think it's fun as hell. I think this is one of the most underrated Valley Williams games. And like, it doesn't have the center ramp bullshit. It doesn't have some of his bad berry stuff. It's got hard ramps to the point where if you have weak flippers, you can't make that ramp. That's, I think, the biggest downside is it's like if you play one of these that's tired, you're like, I straight up can't make that ramp. And maybe that's why it's considered mid by most people, but I think it's a hidden gem. I think that hurts its reputation. I agree. It's a hidden gem. I really like it. I really like launching the ball out of that big fat gun up the ramp. It's fun. It's super fun. The next game, 1995, a game you used to own. Who done it? Sold 2,400 units. This is another co-design with Dwight Sullivan. It was Dwight's concept, and they wanted to do a clue-type whodunit game, and this marks the return. It's his ninth center ramp game and the fifth looping center ramp game. This is like capital, center ramp with a capital C, man. In bold, italicized, it is a fat center ramp that you can't miss. It has a bank that drops it, but you can actually sneak around that bank and still get up there. Like, it's unblockable because it's fucking eight inches wide. It's insane. It's kind of like the Ds on the Waterworld by Goppa. It is like that. It's like a half pipe more than a ramp. Yep. It's insane. I bought that game because it was a really good deal and I was all hyped on D&D at the time. And I was like, oh, I played whodunit. I had enjoyed it on location. I still maintain that it's like a fun location game. It's goofy. Like if you're paying attention and you actually like, you know, it doesn't do well on location because people just click clack through the menus and don't know what the fuck they're doing. But if you pay attention, it is a fun game to play on location.
    64:37
    It's just that center ramp is just too much. It like ruins it. You can play it so long. Yeah, you can. The next game is Jackpot in 1995 as well. Sold 2,400 units. This was another line filler game with Larry Damar as the lead programmer. This is his Barry's exact Pinbot layout with new rules by programmed by Larry Damar. And when Alex was talking about how great Pinball is and we were both like, yeah, Pinball's great. We both like Jackpot better. That's the biggest thing going against Pinball is that there's a version of the same playfield with like more fun rule set. Yeah, because you're gambling. Yeah. Casino runs fun as hell. There's a little button to cheat at card games and stuff. It's fun. Yeah. I don't know. I really, really like this game. It's when I've played Jackpot a shit ton because there was one at a bar near our house. And you're like, it holds up. I really, really like it. Very fun game. And then the last game he makes for Williams, 1996, Junkyard, sells 3,000 units, and he got laid off near the end of this development with a lot of other people, including Dennis Nordman. Yeah. Lots of other people. He ends up afterwards with a job at Betson, which was the biggest distributor in the country, maybe still is in the arcade business. He worked there for eight years after being laid off at Williams. Yeah. I mean, and that's sort of the end. You know, he sort of gets brought back for Queen. Yeah, it's kind of bizarre because he hopped around, did some freelance design work for a bunch of boutique companies. He worked for Deep Root for like two years, but then they folded before they ever produced any of his games. He did like the Queen design, kind of, but it got reworked in that game. We don't really talk about. He gets credit for Berrio's Barbecue, which is named after him, but he didn't really design it. But it's based on stuff. It's based on a lot of his games. The rules are all taken from his games, and it's kind of a bizarro pushed back version of the Bram Stoker's layout, if you look at it. That's my hot take. But it's like the ramps are kind of in the same place. They've got three-bent kind of in the same place. With mushroom bumpers. With mushroom bumpers, my favorite things. I actually do kind of enjoy playing that game. I know you do. You're always threatening to buy one. I am. And you always come in with that energy. Like, it feels like a threat every time you jump into Discord. Well, it's like daring myself to do it. I'm like, should I? What if I did it? I do think it would be like a funny game to have. Yeah. Because it's like you never – those are going to disappear. They made like 150 of them. And it's like suddenly we'll just – there will be a day where you won't know it. It's like when a mom picks up their kid for the last time and you never know when you pick up your child for the last time. You're not going to know it, but like we're going to play a berry barbecue for the last time and then we won't ever see one again. And like that'll be it. It'll be so sad, man, because that game is kind of fun. But yeah, it's kind of bizarre. His hallmarks, I don't, like, that's the thing about Barry's, like. Well, there's some obvious ones, right? Center ramps. He made a lot of them. He made a lot of center ramp games and a lot of them performed very well. And so those are a lot of the games you see of his. And I don't particularly like that. Another one is big mechanical features. And he describes this as he definitely designed around mechs. Like, mechs were part of his design process, and he designed his games around them, which has become, became later on into the 90s and through the modern era where machines have a big mech that are central to a game. Barry sort of was the first to kind of do that. Yeah, he was doing that before Pat Lawler showed up on the scene. You're like, because that's another thing that's like, yeah, Pat's kind of like known for that, like integrating a big central mech into his games. And you're like, Barry kind of like was doing that with System 11s. Yep. And yeah, I think that is a good hallmark of his. It's also funny that you say that Barry Barbecue doesn't have like any mech in it. No mechs, yeah. No interesting mech. Nothing. He also did trilogies, you know, which is a little bit unusual. Only kind of Steve really did this also. And again, the big sellers, I guess, were the only guys in the position to make. Those are the only ones to do it. But it's funny now because people don't really like talk about Barry in that league at all. But it's like he obviously must have had respect from the distributors and buyers at that point in time to the point where they're like, yeah, we can give you a sequel to Comet. And they're like, oh, shit, give me two. He was also a very willing collaborator and allowed folks like Python, Foots, Dwight, and even Mark Ritchie to share the stage with him. I think a lot of his up and downs can be directly attributed to him not being as domineering or as total control freak that Steve Ritchie's famous for being, Pat Lawler's famous for being. Yep. I wouldn't say that I've heard this about Keith in the modern day that he's like domineering, but he's known for taking control of his. Seem like his vision. Yes. He's doing the rules and the layout and every, you know. He gets credit for being that without being called an asshole. Yeah. Yeah, because he seems like, yeah, he's probably nice. But they let him call the shots. And I do think that is what hurts Barry's reputation, which is unfortunate. That it's like, yeah, he was a good guy to work with. Everybody speaks positively about working with him. He, like, always was willing to, like, pick up the slack, do the random little side project, side quest, whatever management wanted him to do. So, of course, there were some shitty ones that came out. When he made what he wanted, he made fucking Dirty Harry and it rules. Well, I think the problem is that when he makes a great game, people go, oh, it was the people around him. Yeah. And then when he makes a bad game, people go, that was Barry. Barry fucked this up. And I'm the opposite. I'm always like, when they're bad, I was like, that's Python's fault. That's Python shit. I agree. You're like, there's, well, I mean, it helps that Python's always involved with the bad ones.
    70:24
    You know, I'm like, where's the pattern here? Yeah, you're like, really? Because, yeah, when you see him working independently, it's good stuff. And the last thing I always say is he's famous for sort of devastating use of stand-up targets and moving target banks. Again, this is kind of a thing that, like, Brian Eddy gets sort of lumped into, like the moving up and down target bank. Well, that was done with Pinbot. Yeah, that's what it was like with Mac. And you're right, he did do a lot of mean stand-ups, and I think he kind of – it's nice. The designers that came from the Solid State era of like, oh, we kind of got to fuck these players out of their quarters is good. Like, that's why I like Bram Stoker's. It's not an easy game. And you're like, that's a different approach than a lot of people. So, you know, all that being said, you've listened to this whole long episode we've done, but he has a complicated legacy. Whether you've been in the hobby a long time, you already kind of know that. But if you're not, you're hearing this for the first time. He undoubtedly made some incredible games, not only commercially, but even those with long stretching roots to today that are respected to this day. He also undoubtedly was responsible for some of the most reviled games of the System 11 and WPC DMD era, right alongside his great games from that era, too. Yeah, it's like back-to-back releases. It's very funny to be like, yeah, his best game came one release before his lowest rated game. So is he underrated? Is he overrated? I mean, I think I always say this, but everyone has hits and misses. Barry somehow redefines how different the peaks and valleys can actually look. He definitely does. So, well, this is the final thoughts here. I just want to talk briefly about this. I compiled some of our data here using Kidball Ranker. Oh, no, I don't like that. So you're going to enjoy this. You're going to enjoy this here. We always joke that Alex loves to sneak dis Barry Ousler every chance he gets, not only in our Discord but on this show. But I wanted to chat about some of each of our ranked favorites from our Pinball Ranker list because the facts actually tell a different story. I have five Barry games in my top 100. Dracula, Space Station, Time Fantasy, Jackpot, and Cosmic Gunfight. Whoops, I actually have six Barry Osler games in my top 100, including Dirty Harry. I realized that as I was editing this episode, and I wasn't going to let that shit go out without being correct. I love Dirty Harry. Awesome game. And Alex has eight Barry games in his top 100. Dracula, Space Station, Bad Cats, Barracora, Harley Davidson, Jackpot, Cosmic Gunfight, and Time Fantasy. Those are all really good games. So you have eight in your top 100. You're actually a big Barry guy. I am a big Barry guy, but I have a feeling I know where this is going to go. Okay.
    73:15
    I just want to say the Consensus Pinball Ranker list only has three Barry games in the top. Dracula, Doctor Who, and Jackpot. Man, Doctor Who's in the top 100 and his other shit isn't? That's surprising. So what it is is both of us have the same favorite Barry game, which is Dracula, And we have the same second favorite Barry game too, which is Space Station. Okay. But we gotta be real. He's the rollercoaster man for a reason. Let's discuss how many of his games we each have ranked in our bottom hundred list on Pinball Ranker. I have 13 Barry games in my bottom 100. Okay. Alex has 14 Barry games in his bottom 100. Yeah, that tracks. And Pinball Ranker consensus list only has five. We have Hurricane, Jokers, Joust, Berrios, Barbecue. Oh, Berries is that loud? That's disrespect. That game's not a bottom 100 game. And Popeye. I'd take bottom 200 for barbecue. That's better than bottom 100. So we both, what I find interesting about this is we both respect and disrespect Berry more than the average player, it seems. That is interesting that we're rating him higher and lower. And lower. Where you're like, everyone else is kind of like the, that's weird because it seems like the games that we like and dislike I thought would be kind of consensus picks. But it's like they're all averaging out. Yeah. Which is surprising to me. So what are our least favorite games? Our least favorite games are also different, which I think is interesting. My bottom three in Descending Order are Jokers, Scorpion, and Cyclone. Alex's bottom three in Descending Order are Comet, Jokers, and Popeye Saves the Earth as the worst.
    75:01
    I gotta play that game again. No, you don't. I gotta, that's why. Because when I played it, I was like, this is the worst. And I'm like, it can't be that bad. I gotta play it again. It can, it can, I suppose. Yeah, man. And I really, that's what I always joke about because I'm like, I do strongly dislike quite a few of his games. But I really, really like a lot of his games. And it's like, there's probably no other designer that has eight in my top 100. They're probably, eight in my top 100 is a lot. It's a lot. Because I have like a pretty good variety in there. Especially because a lot of solid states from Stern don't have many. But I'm like, that's kind of crazy. Makes me, I'm curious what my most common designer is in the top 100 now. I'd be surprised if you had more single designers in your bottom 100, though.
    75:55
    That's why I'm like, yeah, it's kind of funny. You're like, man, we really split his games there. That's crazy. Isn't it funny? Well, Barry was a legend, was also a famously very chill and nice dude as well. I got to meet him once at a show. He made a lot of games. He saved pinball from the brink of extinction in the early 80s. And the only guy that ever sold more games in the solid state era of pinball is Mr. Steve Ritchie himself. So despite all the scuttlebutt, Barry is firmly in the Hall of Fame of pinball designers. And I urge each and every one of you listeners out there to go out, play, use the pinball map, find a Barry Ousler design game near you and go play it. Then come into our Discord and tell us what your most and least favorite Barry games are in there so we can all argue about it all week long. Yes, we love to do. Yep. Until next time, everybody. Good luck. Don't suck. What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
    77:01
    It's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but everyone.