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Flog #31, pinball time travelling with LJ Greene

Dutch Pinball Museum·video·44m 47s·analyzed·Sep 5, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.016

TL;DR

LJ Greene recounts her 1990s pinball industry career and its lasting cultural impact.

Summary

LJ Greene, a former Williams/Bally/Midway and Premier/Gottlieb marketing and data analyst from the 1990s, discusses her career in pinball during the industry's golden age and decline. She shares insider stories about legendary designers, licensing deals (Waterworld, Stargate, Shaq pinball), the rise of video games, and the survival of manufacturers like Stern, reflecting on pinball's cultural resilience and her recent induction into the Pinball Hall of Fame.

Key Claims

  • LJ worked for Williams/Bally/Midway as a market analyst testing games on location, learning from Steve Kordak who made kinetic adjustments to pinball machines based on non-expert player behavior

    high confidence · LJ Greene describing her first job at Williams/Bally/Midway in the 1990s

  • Steve Ritchie left pinball in 1995, with No Fear likely being his last game, and then worked as a developer for Mortal Kombat and provided voice work for the 'Finish Him' scene

    medium confidence · LJ Greene stating 'So this is like 95, even Steve Ritchie, guru into pinball. He left the pinball business in 1995. I think the last one he made was No View.'

  • Video games' rise in the 1990s, combined with the lack of a viable US $1 coin and increasing pinball maintenance costs, made operators prefer video games and contributed to pinball's decline

    high confidence · LJ Greene explaining operator economics and the industry crisis

  • Data East (later Stern) is the only major pinball manufacturer from the 1990s still operating today, while Williams/Bally/Midway stopped pinball production and Premier/Gottlieb went bankrupt

    high confidence · LJ Greene: 'But Stern lived on... Williams Bally Midway stopped their pinball production But Stern lived on'

  • LJ Greene was recently inducted into the Pinball Hall of Fame at an expo, surprising her with the honor and emotional recognition from the community

    high confidence · LJ Greene recounting her Hall of Fame induction: 'they gave me they gave me a plaque and I had to make a speech'

  • Jersey Jack Pinball, started in 2010 with Wizard of Oz, raised the bar for the industry and sparked competition rather than cannibalizing Stern's market

    high confidence · LJ Greene: 'Jersey Jack was coming with Wizard of Oz and Stern said, we're going to top it'

  • There are now 10-15 pinball manufacturers, compared to the handful from the 1990s

    medium confidence · LJ Greene: 'And now these days, like 10, 15 companies building pinball machines these days. Yeah. And that's enormous.'

Notable Quotes

  • “Pinball isn't dead, it just smells funny.”

    Host (Dutch Pinball Museum) @ Opening — Opening joke setting the tone for discussion of pinball's cultural resilience and revival

  • “They were just works in progress. Probably Van Gogh or Rembrandt didn't know that their painting is going to be in a museum also 400 years later, but you never know.”

    Host @ Mid-segment — Reflects on how 1990s whitewood prototypes became museum artifacts, highlighting unintended historical preservation

  • “I think that to the extent that people do go into the company at least once a week, talk to their colleagues, they do better work, they have a better motivation.”

    LJ Greene @ Late segment — LJ advocating for pinball in workplace game rooms as a vehicle for organic creative collaboration and mental health breaks

  • “I think that Gary Stern is the man who earned the title, the man who kept it going.”

    LJ Greene @ Late segment — Attribution of pinball's survival to Gary Stern's business resilience, contrasting with Roger Sharpe's 'saved pinball' reputation

  • “But in pinball and in gaming generally, people were who they were then and they maintain that way.”

    LJ Greene @ Mid-segment — Reflects on pinball community authenticity and long-term personal relationships vs. other industries

  • “Steve Ritchie, a guru into pinball. He left the pinball business in 1995.”

    LJ Greene @ Mid-segment — Key fact about a legendary designer's departure from pinball during the industry's crisis period

  • “I started my working career in pinball. How about closing it?”

    LJ Greene @ Late segment — Expression of desire to return to pinball industry work, demonstrating emotional connection to the medium

  • “It really clears your mind if you can just focus on keeping a ball moving on a playfield.”

    LJ Greene — Articulates therapeutic/mindfulness value of pinball as counterbalance to screen-based work

Entities

LJ GreenepersonRoger SharpepersonSteve RitchiepersonSteve KordakpersonDennis NordmanpersonGeorge GomezpersonPat Lawlorperson

Signals

  • ?

    historical_signal: Comprehensive oral history of legendary 1990s Williams/Bally/Midway design team (Ritchie, Nordman, Gomez, Lawlor, Kordak, Freres) from insider perspective; captures designer personalities, methodology, and historical context of industry peak

    high · LJ Greene's detailed recollections of working alongside and learning from multiple legendary designers; specific anecdotes about design philosophy, playtesting, and collaborative process

  • $

    market_signal: 1990s licensing advantage for pinball manufacturers: more IP deals available than manufacturers could produce, giving favorable licensing terms; shift when video games became preferred operator investment

    high · LJ Greene: 'There were more licenses going around than there were pinball companies that could develop them. So we didn't have to pay that much for them... They really wanted us.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern (formerly Data East/Sega) is only major 1990s pinball manufacturer still operating; Williams/Bally ceased production, Premier/Gottlieb bankrupted; attributed to Gary Stern's resilience and business acumen

    high · LJ Greene: 'Stern lived on So and that and you fortunate enough to be able to host him here... But Stern lived on... Williams Bally Midway stopped their pinball production But Stern lived on'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie left pinball industry in 1995 (likely final game: No Fear) and transitioned to Mortal Kombat development; represents broader designer exodus during industry decline

    medium · LJ Greene: 'So this is like 95, even Steve Ritchie, guru into pinball. He left the pinball business in 1995. I think the last one he made was No View.'

  • ?

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.134

0:00
Pinball isn't dead, it just smells funny. You ever heard of that? No. Yeah. Hello everybody. Something new today. We're going to do some in-depth interview with some people
0:17
that for us are very important because they are working or worked in the industry of pinball. Next to me is Laurie Jane Green and nobody knows her like that because her name is LJ. Mostly LJ. Everybody knows LJ. So LJ, she's an American. She lives in the Netherlands nearby and she's married to, they're not married. She is going steady with a Dutch guy, with Bob. I think your government says that we're fiscal partners. Fiscal partners, yes, yes. Very romantic. Good construction. But LJ, in the 90s, she worked for the pinball companies like Premier, Gottlieb, and she has great stories to tell. And we're going to talk about some kind of that stories.
1:03
We don't know where it's going, how long it's going to take, but enjoy. And it will be a blast. It will be awesome. Awesome. Welcome, LJ. Thank you. So, living in the Netherlands. Yes, I've been living in the Netherlands. The Netherlands is much better because you're here. I've been here for 14 years. It's great. The language is difficult to get into my head. Prior to coming here, I lived in Denmark for 14 years, and I find that the Tve Tallen Lichten Dikter by Elkar. Did I say that right? So sometimes I confuse the languages. But it's very nice to have the Pinball Museum just 20 minutes away because it always feels like coming home when you're coming here. Especially because this guy was a former colleague. In fact, I learned everything about pinball from him in my very first real job, which was at Williams Bally Midway. Yeah, it's Roger Sharpe. It's Roger Sharpe, yeah. He's everybody's father. He's also my pinball father. He's the man in pinball. I only knew him later because I was younger and I was into the hobby much later. Yeah. But you were in the center of the 90s where the magic things happened and you were an employee of a company building pinball machines. You didn't know about the industry. It was just a job for you. No, it was in fact, back in those days, you didn't even didn't even apply online. You would see an ad and this this was taken by a recruiter. And he he wrote about a game company and it sounded quite interesting. And it was it was for a market analyst. So the job was really to test games on location. And this would be right after I want to say it was a year or two after Williams and And then Bally merged into one company. So Williams, Bally, Midway was all one company. And I responded to the ad and I went in for an interview and it was nothing professional about it. Yeah. You were like 24, 25, 26? I was like, yeah, really? Yeah. Thank you for watching. Two different brands and they both had to agree and then it had to be written off by Kenny. But the funny part was at the end they just said hire her, let's go to Oinkers. I had an education as an actuary. So it was a little bit of overkill for game testing at the time. But I'm glad because it was an amazing first job. Not just from the standpoint of they were trying to figure out what would hook a player.

  • In the 1990s, pinball manufacturers had more licensing deals available than they could develop, giving them favorable negotiating positions

    high confidence · LJ Greene: 'So there were more licenses going around than there were pinball companies that could develop them. So we didn't have to pay that much for them'

  • Waterworld was a major licensing flop for pinball despite being a heavily promoted film with significant budget investment

    high confidence · LJ Greene: 'The Waterworld story was, well, nobody knew. Because they were investing so much in the movie, we were sure it was going to be a good license. It turned out to be not a great license. The biggest flop ever.'

  • Harry Mapps invented the flipper in 1947 with six on the side, and flipper placement has remained essentially unchanged since then because it was proven correct

    medium confidence · Host stating 'Harry Maps invented the flipper in 1947. There were six on the side. You can shovel the ball from the left to the right. But later it was in another position and still is there.'

    • @ Late segment

  • “Jersey Jack was coming with Wizard of Oz and Stern said, we're going to top it.”

    LJ Greene @ Final segment — Describes 2010s competitive dynamic where new manufacturers elevated industry standards rather than destroyed it

  • “They were just in the process of designing and developing Mortal Kombat 1, which would wind up kind of taking the company in a whole different direction.”

    LJ Greene @ Mid-segment — Reveals Williams/Bally/Midway's pivot toward video games, contextualizing pinball's decline

    • Greg Freres
    person
    Ed Boonperson
    Joe Dillonperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Jack Guarnieriperson
    Shaquille O'Nealperson
    Frank Thomasperson
    Dennis Hopperperson
    James Spaderperson
    Chris Grannerperson
    Python Angheloperson
    Williams Electronics (Williams/Bally/Midway)company
    Premier/Gottliebcompany
    Stern Pinball (formerly Data East/Sega)company
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Dutch Pinball Museumorganization
    Pinball Hall of Fameorganization

    product_concern: Waterworld pinball was major commercial failure despite expensive film production and extensive studio support; demonstrates licensing IP quality does not guarantee pinball success

    high · LJ Greene: 'The Waterworld story was... turned out to be not a great license. The biggest flop ever.'; recalls reading opening scene of script and predicting failure

  • ?

    community_signal: LJ Greene inducted into Pinball Hall of Fame at recent expo; emotional recognition from industry peers and community; represents acknowledgment of women's contributions to pinball industry during 1990s era

    high · LJ Greene's account of Hall of Fame induction, plaque award, speech requirement, and emotional reaction from attendees; host observed community enthusiasm

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Modern pinball industry experiencing growth optimism with 10-15 active manufacturers; Jersey Jack's market entry (2010, Wizard of Oz) elevated standards and created competitive growth rather than market cannibalization

    high · LJ Greene: 'And now these days, like 10, 15 companies building pinball machines these days. Yeah. And that's enormous.'; 'Jersey Jack was coming with Wizard of Oz and Stern said, we're going to top it.'

  • ?

    operational_signal: 1990s pinball design included systematic playtesting with non-expert players on whitewood prototypes; designers like Steve Kordak monitored game timing, ball drain rates, and kinetic adjustments based on casual player behavior

    high · LJ Greene describing her role: 'And so we'd have to go back and play it, especially people that weren't skilled pinball players. And they'd watch us to see what was the game time, how fast did the ball drain. And Steve would stand back there and read the statistics and then make small adjustments'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Video games' rise in 1990s, combined with lack of viable $1 US coin and increasing pinball maintenance costs, made operators prefer video games over pinball; contributed to industry crisis and manufacturer consolidation

    high · LJ Greene: 'Video games were coming up so fast... it was also very lucrative for operators at the time to be able to put video games on location, and they didn't require much maintenance... But pinball machines... required maintenance... combined with the fact that in the U.S., still, still we don't really have a viable $1 coin made it almost impossible.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: 1990s Williams game factory featured physically co-located design teams (pinball and video game) sharing office space, eating together, fostering organic creative cross-pollination and collaborative ideation

    high · LJ Greene: 'I loved about working in a game factory... there was a video team and the Mortal Kombat team... same with the pinball teams... they got very close together. That meant they fought a lot, but they also came up with with great things because it was when you're creating together physically in one location, you just crazy ideas make it into the gameplay'

  • ?

    industry_signal: 1990s pinball licensing involved IP holders requiring personal approval of artwork, voice talent involvement, and game-for-home delivery as conditions; major celebrities (Shaq, Frank Thomas, Dennis Hopper, James Spader) personally involved in game development and approval process

    high · LJ Greene: 'Whenever was involved wanted to get involved in the design of the movie. They wanted also to personally approve the artwork. And they always wanted to have a game themselves.' Documented meetings with Shaq, Frank Thomas, Dennis Hopper, James Spader

    • 4:15
    To like the game, which is just when they were starting to come up with things like unique features like a Rudy, like a Rudy head that you would interact with. So that you would kind of lock balls in and then what made it so that a player wanted to come back to that particular game. So defining fun and playability, that was something they were looking into or trying to quantify it. So that was quite fun. That was nice because that was my start into real into pinball because I was 16 when Thin House came out. And that attracted me. So what you thought of that worked for me because I was the product. So I played because I liked the gimmicks that they put into the pinball machine. They called it the hook. I think it was the same thing. What was the thing that was going to hook the players? Yeah. And what was really interesting at the time was part of the job was not only, okay, we had games and we had to put them on location. And we would always find that you put a new game on a location and it earns for a while, then it goes down for a bit. Yes. And then you would rotate the games and that was always part of what the operator had to do in those days. But what was quite interesting was you'd have Steve Kordak, who was a legend. And he was back, you know, while the games were being adjusted. I guess there were Whitewoods, is that the name? Yes, Whitewoods. For the game without artwork, I want to make sure I'm saying the right. There were Whitewoods. And so we'd have to go back and play it, especially people that weren't skilled pinball players. And they'd watch us to see what was the game time, how fast did the ball drain.
    5:46
    And Steve would stand back there and read the statistics and then make small adjustments, little adjustments in the kinetics of the play field or figure out if the ramp was as it needed to be. And they were actually quite interested in how the non-experienced player was shooting on a game as opposed to the designers because they knew what they were supposed to do and we were just looking for flashing lights. Yes, and talking about Whitewoods, who could have known that if you have that Whitewoods from back then now for a collector, that would be awesome. But they didn't exist because they didn't know that it was going to be, they were making history. I guarantee they didn't know that someone would make a museum here in Rotterdam and take all kinds of artifacts, you could say, and use them to decorate a museum. No, that was never a thought. They were just works in progress. Probably Van Gogh or Rembrandt and Ryan didn't know that their painting is going to be in a museum also 400 years later, but you never know. But can you name some names who were your direct colleagues in the 90s? Well, when I started, my boss was Joe Dillon. He was head of sales. Well, actually, it was Marty Glazeman and Steve Blatspieler started. And then shortly thereafter, Joe took over sales for both of the product lines.
    7:11
    And he was kind of a legend in that industry, I have to say. He had so many stories about the olden days. And he also tried to consolidate the distribution for, because there were distributors for Bally and distributors for Williams, and then he would put them all together. On top of that, we had Midway as a video game line, and they were just in the process of designing and developing Mortal Kombat 1, which would wind up kind of taking the company in a whole different direction. So he was a, but then we had a whole cast of characters in the design department. Steve Ritchie, Mark Ritchie, Python Angelo, and he would oftentimes just stop in the office and say random things. You cannot say them now anymore, I think. He's not around anymore, but yeah, I'm sure everybody who ever met Python Angelo has a memory. Hungarian roots, I think. Hungarian roots, Python Angelo. Romanian. Romanian, Romanian. He was Romanian, as far as I know. Yeah. And then, yeah, Pat Lawler, Barry Ousler, Sheridan Ousler was Barry's younger brother. He was a character. Yeah. There was a thing about pinball in those days. There was nothing bad about nepotism. If my own brother and I both worked in the company, my brother started as a, he came as a person who would research the operator's experience of specific games. He came to Williams that way because I was in marketing research, so he was a contractor, and then he pitched the idea of making promotional videos, and then he started a whole promotional video department, and then he took over creative media, and I went somewhere else. Yeah. But both Ritchie brothers worked there. We had numerous Nicastros in the building. So it was quite common that family members were there, were working within the office. There was nothing wrong about that at the time. Now I think nepotism is considered negative. It also gave the companies a family feeling.
    9:22
    Yeah, but you also told me stories with Dennis Neumann was your colleague. Yeah, of course. George Gomez. Dennis Nordman also helped me to learn how to play pinball because he was, I remember him as being a guy who just loved crazy raps. Yeah. I think he still does. He still does. He's made Strangers' Cabinets. I love the guy. Yeah. But I don't know it in inches, but you are for America, you are a small woman. I'm a small woman. Dennis Nordman is huge. He's a very tall person. He's Bigfoot. Yeah, he was Bigfoot. You literally look up to him? Yeah. Yeah, and at the Williams Bally Midway place, it was at North California Avenue in Chicago, we always had a row of pinball machines, both in the back cantina or the cafeteria. We also had them in the testing area. And I remember, because I was learning how to play pinball, and Dennis was also, I don't know which one, I think he was in the process of designing Dr. Dude. Yeah, Dr. Dude. That probably would have been the time. Yeah, our party animal Dr. Dude, Elvira. It was after Elvira. Yeah. Nice story. And Greg Ferris was, of course, the artist. Those guys were a team. Yeah. And they always made, yeah, really colorful creations. Greg Ferris just announced his retirement. So all the guys, you were a youngster and they were all a little bit old. So everybody now is retiring from the business probably. Yeah. And Mortman is now 75. He doesn't look it. Yeah, that's true. He's a handsome man.
    10:53
    Yeah. No. So we just talked about Steve Kordek and you mentioned Elvira. You have a great story about the Elvira. The funny thing was I wasn't at the company when they released Elvira. However I took over the desk of the person who was in marketing before me and I found in the drawer a lot of photos and one of them was Steve Kordek dressed as Dracula And I learned that it, I don't, oh, is it here? Yeah, it's here. Okay, you got it here. You have all the props neatly laid out. This is still Steve Kordek dressed as Dracula, and that, as I'm told, was at the release of Elvira. 89. But I remember also that he would come to trade shows like always with his daughter who apparently had also at a point in time worked for the company.
    11:43
    But he was, yeah, he was just a fixture. And one of the cool things was that while I worked there, I have to do it this way. Steve celebrated his golden wedding anniversary. I guess he'll do a close up of that later on. And he brought everybody this adorable little giveaway that he did at his goal. So this says he was married in 1941. He had his 50th wedding anniversary in 1991, which is when I worked with him. And then he gave everybody a mirror with a wedding photo of him and his wife when they got married. So that was quite. And you donated it to our museum. It is now. And he would love that. Yeah. He would love that somebody has taken all the time to do the research about the history of pinball in Europe. So he turned over 100 when he passed away. Wayne Nyen also passed 100. So what is it? I guess they love what they did for a living. So you're going to be 110. Yeah, you're probably going to do it also. We went to the expo last year and you haven't been to the expo like 30, 35 years or so? No, come on. And it was coming home for you, right? Yeah. Everybody that you have seen, all your old colleagues were in shock that you see it. And what did they say? Do you have a fountain of youth in the Netherlands? Yeah. You didn't age. And they did. Probably just all this good clean living. We're a very good plastic surgeon. Yeah.
    13:10
    Yeah. Or both. Yeah. So you were in marketing, you're a data analyst, you did stuff, but you're also... When I worked at Williams Bally Midway, I did big testing and I was a data analyst. And then Premier Gottlieb hired me to do their marketing. And then that was quite an opportunity for me because I was in my late 20s. And for Williams Bally, the licensing was all done by Roger Sharp. And at Data East, you know, the rock star of licensing was Joey Kamenkow. And he was working with Gary Stern. And those two were, they were just, I think they had Simpsons. They had all the, yeah, the greatest licenses. And yeah, I think he was the first one to jump in. I think he even revived pinball, Data East did, by focusing on licensing. And then I had an opportunity to do it for Premier Gottlieb. So that was a dream job for a person. Yeah, because, let me explain why. Because we were a limited amount of pinball manufacturers. And licensing in the 90s was a big part of the merchandising for any title, any movie release. And the icing on the cake for a licensing program was to also have a pinball machine. So there were more licenses going around than there were pinball companies that could develop them. So we didn't have to pay that much for them, but they really wanted us. We had to develop them in accordance with the script of the company, of the movie or of whatever license it was. But beyond that, it was so much fun because they were selling to us and then we would choose what to develop. Yeah, it's awesome. We're going to talk about that stories a little bit later. But your in-between job was also modeling for Flyers. He showed me some Flyers. Modeling for Flyers. Look at this. I was not a model for a flyer. This was actually, no, this was the trade magazine at the time. So as a marketing person, which one is first? We're going to show them both. Okay, so this was not the flyer. This was the cover of Replay magazine. And every company would get one if you bought enough advertising. They would let your company be on the cover. I have my finger on top of my own face. But yeah, so this was the premier Gottlieb sales and marketing team. Thank you. Mike and myself. And we were the, yeah. So, but this was, the trade magazine of the time was called Replay Magazine. So I wasn't modeling for fly.
    16:10
    But we did have to buy advertising in the magazine to get a cover. And this was for the, this was the 30th anniversary? No, that's only the 10th anniversary of Premier Gottlieb. But Gottlieb was longer as a brand in the marketplace. So when you went on having that job, more opportunities came along. And you were involved by licensing and really actually meeting the stars from the IP that were putting into the pinball. So like, for instance, Shag Attack or Waterworld. Just do it. The Waterworld story. Tell me something. Yeah, the Waterworld story was, well, nobody knew. Because they were investing so much in the movie, we were sure it was going to be a good license. It turned out to be not a great license. The biggest flop ever. I bought it. Yeah.
    17:03
    Yeah, that was the case. But the studio was really doing a lot to merchandise it and to license it. And I remember we would get copies of the script to start with. And I remember reading the first scene of the script and it didn't sound great. Oh. The first scene written in the script was, you probably will edit this out, I don't know. But written in the script was a guy alone on a boat, the Dennis Hopper character, who would then get pee into a machine, throw it into something that would be clean, and then he would drink it. And it didn't sound like a great opening scene.
    17:40
    And they still, I think it was the opening scene. Yeah. It was a pretty bad opening. But anyway, it sounded like a great idea for a pinball license, and they were putting so much money into it. How could it fail? Well, it did. But we did license it. Dennis Hopper did do the voice for it. And I got to, for several films, I got to go with the sound engineer to record with the person who was going to do the voice. That was the case for Stargate with James Spader. And that was the case for Waterworld with Dennis Hopper. Yeah, picture of that. Yeah, this is the picture. I don't think Dennis Hopper has a picture of him with me, but I have it.
    18:24
    Yeah, that's nice. But a great movie, one of the most expensive movies ever made in that time. The atoll that they were building, that was a huge, big of their budget. I think it was a great movie, but it didn't hit the box office. But if you watch it now, I think it's an amazing movie. Pinball Machine, whatever, not that. It was a big success in that day, I think. This is right before a lot of companies started to go under. And the issue with pinball machines, and I've heard it also in several documentaries, right then in the mid-90s, was that video games were coming up so fast. And playing a game on a screen in the 90s was like a new concept. I laugh about it because that's where we spend our whole lives on screens now. But back then, that was a new thing. It was also very lucrative for operators at the time to be able to put video games on location, and they didn't require much maintenance, and then they would earn a lot. But pinball machines, in order to keep them more and more exciting, we had to make them more intricate mechanically, and that required maintenance. That combined with the fact that in the U.S., still, still we don't really have a viable $1 coin made it almost impossible. You always had to put a dollar bill acceptor into a pinball machine that also put it in any video game. It just made them unaffordable to maintain. So they almost. There is this Susan B. Anthony coin. There was. Yeah. That didn't take off. No. We have a great story to tell in this museum. That's for later. I might note that even back then, there was the American Association of Machines, the AAMA. It's there, the Amusement and Music Operators Association. It's on the left of you. No, that's AMOA. That's the operators. So the operators had their association, and then the machine manufacturers had their association. And that's the AAMA. And they were lobbying with the government in the U.S. to get a $1 coin made. And that's been 30 years. And still, just in order to keep the industry alive. And now, of course, we have the card readers and there's all different ways to play. But having just one quarter, it really limited. So the games are getting more and more expensive, but they weren't earning equally to what new video games were doing. And to update a video game, you just had to change some, you know, some E-prom. So, yeah. So this is like 95, even Steve Ritchie, guru into pinball. He left the pinball business in 1995. I think the last one he made was No View. And he worked for Midway and he was a developer for Mortal Kombat. You know that? I knew there was a voice in Mortal Kombat. Yeah, yeah. So if you ever played Mortal Kombat. I didn't know that he was on a developer. I don't know, but he worked for it. But he lent his voice to the scene from Finish Him.
    21:38
    There's Steve Ritchie. There's a lot of crossover. That's one thing that I loved about working in a game factory. So you would have the there was a video team and the Mortal Kombat team was a was a team of guys. I mean, they always ate lunch together and some guys had futons in their offices. And the same with the pinball teams, the design team, they got very close together. That meant they fought a lot, but they also came up with with great things because it was when you're creating together physically in one location, you just crazy ideas make it into the gameplay. And so the guy who did the best voices was also Ed Boon of Mortal Kombat fame but he the voice of Rudy because he could do crazy voices He could also in those days when we would get on to page people in the factory he would get on the PA system by dialing a number Ed Boon could take on almost anybody else's voice and page them to an office for no good reason.
    22:36
    Yeah. He could just do an incredible amount of voices. So there's a lot of crossover between the creatives in pinball and the creatives in video games. And that was that was super fun. Yeah. You also have a great story about Shaquille O'Neal. Yeah. Shaquille O'Neal. Yes. Pinball machine and you went to his house. You met him. Yes. So when he got a pinball machine for his house once it was developed.
    23:07
    And so we were fortunate enough together with the distributor for the region we could deliver to his house. At the time, he played for the Orlando Magic, and we got a tour of his house.
    23:21
    And that tour included the whole house. It was quite funny because some of the people working in his house were friends of his from university.
    23:33
    And then we get to see that he had, it must have been like an eight-foot-in-diameter round bed in his bedroom. Yeah, he's a tall guy. So I must have looked panicked when I saw that.
    23:45
    Yeah, so he's a tall guy. He's a tall guy. We got to see that. That was great. And we also have a picture of him going to put it in. We'll edit it in. Yeah, edit it in. Yeah, nice. What was interesting was that when licensing games, we also did the Big Hurt, which was Frank Thomas. He was a baseball player for the Chicago White Sox at the time. And when we would license a sports figure or license a character from a movie, oftentimes whoever was involved wanted to get involved in the design of the movie. They wanted also to personally approve the artwork. And they always wanted to have a game themselves. So that was quite fun. Yeah. And also, nobody knows this, but the Big Hurt Pinball Machine. Frank Thomas is the player on the... Frank Thomas was the player. We don't know anything about baseball, so I have to... Yeah, the baseball doesn't really... But there's also a character this small in the Translight, in the backless, that was your boyfriend. Yeah, he was on deck, so you always put the player on deck. And he was Frank Thomas's trainer at the time. His name was Walt Pasternak, and we put him in the screen in the back glass. And so, yeah, at the time I was dating Walt. Yeah, the real thing. I think he's gone on to have a fabulous life, despite that we didn't work out. Yeah. So we went to the expo last year and I observed you from a distance and everybody was thrilled that you were there. Oh, thank you. I saw everybody glistening in their eyes, but they also arranged something for you. So you have to get on stage and you were you are now how do you call that? You were put into the Pinball Hall of Fame. You will get a reward for service to the industry. Yeah. So they gave me they gave me a plaque and I had to make a speech. You were there. Speech. That was a big surprise. I didn't know that you convinced me to go. So I went in. But it was one of the greatest feelings of also your first job and the way you know people from. From those days. And what I find to be quite interesting is a lot of the people that started in pinball stick around the industry for a long time. And they're authentic. Since then, I've moved to a few countries and I've changed to some industries. Some industries were great, like show lighting was a fabulous industry. Software was a more of a, it was more, you meet a lot of people, But you don't maintain really solid, authentic connections with very many people that you work with. But in pinball and in gaming generally, people were who they were then and they maintain that way. And a lot of, because the industry has done this, a lot of their life stories have been, I think we heard from Chris Granner, who was also inducted into the Hall of Fame. And he did a lot of music that, you know, Pinball basically saved his life. Fear Steals. Everybody knows the Fear Steals tunes. Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. And I saw real tears. You were... You saw real tears. Yeah. You cried when you... Yeah. Because it felt, I think, for you, it felt like a warm bath. Coming home. Yeah. And you said to me, how about... I started my working career in pinball. How about closing it? So, if they ask you, do you want a job in Europe, do something in marketing or something, they can call you, right? Good. But I'm on a quest. I have a thing. Because my company was a place where I would go. Now people work remotely and they don't really have those organic creative moments with colleagues. And I think that to the extent that people do go into the company at least once a week, talk to their colleagues, they do better work, they have a better motivation. I would love to see more corporations have game rooms and have like, you know, a pinball area or a game area. So my quest would be to increase the number of physical locations where we could put pinball machines and not necessarily always so that they're earning. They don't always have to be in some environment. They could be on free play in a company game area. I would love to see that because I think that people who are going in have the same experience that I can share with you now about my first job, which was, you know, I had Steve Kordak, a legend, sitting there watching me play and telling me stories about why the flippers were put in that location on a pinball machine. And there's a history and a legacy there. And you miss that now if you work remotely. Yeah. So Harry Maps invented the flipper in 1947. There were six on the side. You can shovel the ball from the left to the right. But later it was in another position and still is there. And when the things were here, they never changed it because they knew it was correct. It's very nice. So they got a lot of involvement into the history of pinball. But always the flippers remain the same into a pinball machine. But for now these days, we got like we started with the electromechanical machines. And later from 77, we got the PCBs. It evolved, but it's still pinball. It's still with a ball, with flippers. And it's an amazing game. I think that the policy, we have to fact check that, but still it's a policy with Stern that every employee has to play 15 minutes a day. That's really good. Maybe not on the factory, but all the designing crew play pinball because, yeah, if, for instance, for me, I'm running a museum, I don't play 15 minutes a day because I don't have the time for it. But I wish I could. You could. I could. Plenty of opportunities around. Plenty of opportunities. But there's always something that is blowing, something in my mind has to be, pinball is such an amazing thing. And we also do a lot of pinball machines for companies because why? We love it. But I always pitch the idea to companies that if you have so much on your head with the most difficult stuff that you have to do for a business, play a game of pinball, 50 minutes and your head is empty. Now that too, but one of the things that I also noticed is that, and who knew, back when, as I mentioned, when Pinball was coming, when I worked in Pinball and we also had video games, it was kind of a new thing to have a game on a screen. From then to now, we spend just hours on screens, hours on screens. And of course you can still play a game on a screen, and I do, like I do it on my phone if I'm waiting. But the idea of things actually moving and you actually have to react and there's actual sound, just the whole 3D effect, especially if you're in an office where you're working all day on a computer, you're having conference calls, your whole life takes place just basically on a screen, documenting things on a screen, meeting on a screen. And it really clears your mind if you can just focus on keeping a ball moving on a playfield. It's awesome. Anything. Anything you do that doesn't involve screen time nowadays.
    31:32
    Yeah, it's a good micro... I think there is a term. It's called a micro break. Okay. Micro break. Yeah, it's a good term. We introduce it. Micro break. I tell you to go for a walk in the middle of the day. A couple of weeks ago, you were visiting family in Chicago, I think. Yeah. And you also had lunch with George Gomez. How was that? You don't have to fill in the details, but how was that? Just lunch. I have a dream. I want to have lunch with George Gomez. You want George Gomez to come here to do an evening with George Gomez. I even fly over for lunch with George Gomez. But you had lunch. Yeah. What do you have? Well, what do we eat? Well, right across from the Stern factory where they have now, it's in Elk Grove Village. They're going to put a giant pinball up there that should be, everybody who knows Chicago knows a Chicago bean. Well, Elk Grove Village is now going to have its bean and that's a giant pinball.
    32:26
    It's going to be in front of the Stern factory. And then across the street, there's a nice restaurant over there.
    32:31
    But we just, we talked about the history of pinball and also the changes that have happened. Because Stern, Data East at the time it was called, but Stern today and Gary Stern and that story is, So to me, it's the best example of Chicago resilience. Chicago is a city that almost burned down once and then people stayed and they rebuilt the city and it has high rises. I don't know how many times Stern should have gone under.
    33:03
    There are several times that even Gary's dad started a company that might not have survived. And then it became Data East and then it became Sega. Now it's Stern Electronic. And that is the one company still standing or the one team, I guess, the person still in the industry that was there from when I was there and never premier Gottlieb. They went bankrupt Williams Bally Midway stopped their pinball production But Stern lived on So and that and you fortunate enough to be able to host him here Yeah maybe So about everybody calls Roger Sharp the man who saved pinball But I think Gary Stern is the man who earned the title, the man who kept it going. Yeah. There were lots of good reasons that Pinball should have gone under, and it didn't. Yeah. So that, yeah, that's a, it's amazing also. Yeah, but let's not forget Jersey Jack Pinball. Yeah. It was started in 2010, and everybody has competitors, and from my point of view, they weren't competitors. They raised the bar. So Jersey Jack was coming with Wizard of Oz and Stern said, we're going to top it. So and now these days, like 10, 15 companies building pinball machines these days. Yeah. And that's enormous. And we also have a Dutch company making a Big Lebowski and they're going to announce the new title later this year or beginning of the next year. Yeah. So pinball is alive. There was once a phrase in pinball and it always was in my mind. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. uell I was a painter and I was into the pinball and I started a pinball for rent company. Right. And that's how we met. You remember that? Yeah, I do. Yeah. So the Netherlands isn't this big. What game were you renting? Was that a ghetto? No, that was two Richie games. A Mark Richie game and a Steve Richie game. It was No Fear and a Fish Tales. It was a Fish Tales. Yeah. And it was in Limburg. That's like a two, two and a half hour drive. I don't know. And it was just a venue, a big venue, and they wanted to have pinball machines on their stand. And I put it there. And when I went back, I got a call from some LJ.
    37:03
    How is it possible? We're working in the industry and now there are two Ritchie games on the floor and blah, blah. So that's how we met. And 10 years ago, we organized a meet and greet with Steve Ritchie. Exactly 10 years ago. Yeah. I have the placemat. Yeah, the placemat. We made a photo of the placemat. And it was a meet and greet, not just meeting someone with meat, with the meat and greet. And people said I was a little bit dyslexic, but it wasn't. It was meat and greet, having a dinner with some meat. And it was fun. But Steve Ritchie was there. You were there. And yeah, there was also very special moments 10 years ago. That was 10 years ago. And then the following year, was it Roger Sharp that came or was he? No, they were 2018 with Jack Danger and I already started the museum in another venue in Rotterdam. And now we are now for nine years a museum and every year exponentially it grew. So and now we are here talking with people from the industry. And the number one, I can't plug your museum, the number one museum on TripAdvisor in Rotterdam. Yeah, I've got a lot of museums in Rotterdam Paintings from old masters. A lot of museums. The Maritime Museum, the Boyments Museum. So why is that? Because everybody loves pinball, right? Yeah. So you cannot harm anybody. Just if you're not into pinball, yeah, you have a problem. You don't have a problem. You have a problem. Who doesn't like pinball? No, but you're not just a location where people can play games. Showing the innovation behind the game from Bagatelle forward when the flipper came on.
    38:47
    You have a huge collection of, yeah, molds, artifacts, original artwork, everything here. Really creating history. Yeah. So that, yeah, I think it blows people away when they come here. Yeah. I actually, I don't say I invented the word, but it came to my mind. How do, why is museum? Museum because museum is like a word that people say, hands on your back, looking around, don't touch anything. So I came up with the following name for our museum. I'd rather call it a museum. A museum. That's upstairs. The museum is downstairs, right? Yeah. And then upstairs is a museum where you can play. You see him? Yes. You see him.
    39:30
    Yeah. So you talked about your brother. I think he's living in Spain. Yeah. Yeah, and hopefully he'll be here in a month's time so he can come and video you. He's got all the stories behind, well, not all the stories, but quite a few stories behind the making of the promotional videos, which were a new thing in the 90s. So he pitched that idea to Williams, Bally, Midway, and then stayed and ran a department called Creative Media where they were, it was just, it was kind of a new thing. I asked him yesterday, because I called him on the phone to prepare for this, what was the first video he made? And it was about the new operating system. So it wasn't a promotional video at all. And that went out to all the distributors and operators. So they understood the new operating system. That would have been around, like, I want to say 91. And then I know he made a video with Roger Sharp and I think Mark Ritchie for Slugfest. Ah, yeah, the bed game. That was one of the early ones because that was not a standard pinball machine. So that was a promotional. And then it became that it was a part of the launch package for every video game that came out. Those I know are on YouTube. I also know the original footage for a lot of what he shot for those was sent by Ken Fedesna, who was running Williams Bally Midway when they stopped pinball production. Ken Fedesna, the big boss. Yeah, I met him last year on the expo. You did. And you'll meet him next year. But he sent all the original footage to a game museum in New York somewhere. Okay. So all that. Yeah. But yeah, so hopefully he's got other stories.
    41:03
    Yeah. Does he have all the footage? Because we can digitize it. A lot of the footage is in that museum. But according to Kenny, everything that they digitize, we should have access to. Okay. Yeah. I remember the Fistil's promotional video, I think. Yeah, that was shot at Gages Lake in Illinois. And that was also an early one. Yeah. That was early in the... Yeah. So another story that came to my mind. So we went to your stack of photos and flyers. Oh, yeah. It was the Stargate game. You also did the licensing. Yeah, we licensed Stargate. You met the... The voice of Stargate was James Spader. James Spader, yeah. And we went to a recording studio where he had done the looping for the film. And what I do remember was that, yeah, what you have to read for... James Spader is an actor-actor. And then we have him saying things like, shoot the ramp for a million. Shoot the pyramid. And I remember him actually just going, I can't believe I have to say this. Not that the concept of Stargate was ever his favorite. He was pretty public about that in his interviews.
    42:16
    But then he had to do this. But he wanted the pinball machine. So he did get the pinball machine. I think the Stargate is one of the best Gullcubes made in that area. Yeah. Only the most annoying thing about playing Stargate is that it's always shoot the pyramid, shoot the pyramid, shoot the pyramid. What was it? Yeah, yeah. And you also received a gift back then. Yes, I got the watch. I think it had Boris or Anubis in it. Yeah. Yeah, that's a doorbell. Oh, that's a nice one. No, but we, she managed it. But you get a wristwatch. Yeah, I got a wristwatch. And so now that's in the museum as well. That's in the museum. On display. As I find things, yeah, anything that I find that I think is noteworthy or any game or any license or anything will go in this museum. Yeah. Wow.
    43:08
    I think the one story we also did at Premier Gottlieb, we also did Rescue 911. Yeah. And now I was researching that title for this. William Shatner. I have a William Shatner story. Yeah. Oh. I did have a William. Because I was recently, I know that William Shatner had a game delivered to his house. I'm 100% sure of that. And in fact, preparing for this, I went to find out why. Because when I look at the game on Wikipedia, it says that it was missing William Shatner. I don't think we had the rights for his likeness, but I think he did voice prompts for the game.
    43:47
    And that was released. Years later, I found myself in a situation where I happened to, I was visiting somebody who knew, well, I was invited to a dinner hosted by one of the founders of Priceline, where they were, the next day they were shooting some Priceline commercials. And I happened to be at a dinner with William Shatner. And I thought, what do you say to William Shatner? I never met the man. I just know that he had a pinball machine in. So I asked him, do you have a Rescue 911 and pinball machine? And he confirmed that he did. He also confirmed that the helicopter didn't work.
    44:26
    So that was quite fun. So this was a nice one-taker, I think. Yeah, I think. Did we get enough in? Yeah. Yeah? Like if I can come up with anything else? Yeah. So we're going to close it. You can edit a lot, I'm sure.