Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 72 - This one is for Ralph!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 26m·analyzed·Apr 15, 2026
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Triple Drain discusses design philosophy, recent machine acquisitions, and Pokemon sales post-launch.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast Episode 72 features the hosts (Joel, Tom, Travis) discussing their two-month hiatus, recent game purchases and experiences (Beetlejuice, Winchester Mystery House, Dune), and a lengthy debate about tournament-focused vs. casual/collector-focused game design philosophy. They emphasize that pinball games serve different audiences and that non-tournament players shouldn't feel obligated to understand score balance or tournament mechanics. They also discuss Pokemon's strong sales launch and the typical pattern where code perception affects sales after the initial release window.

Key Claims

  • The previous episode was uploaded February 13th and this one is being recorded April 14th, a two-month gap

    high confidence · Joel explicitly states dates at the beginning of the episode

  • Tom bought, streamed, and sold a game within the two-month period

    high confidence · Joel confirms this happened to Tom during the episode intro

  • Triple Drain has over 100 Patreon supporters, mostly on the free tier

    high confidence · Joel states: 'So we now have over 100 Patreon supporters. Fun fact, there's a free tier. There's a free tier. So the vast majority of those are the free tier.'

  • Pokemon's first run sold out within days

    high confidence · Travis (working for a pinball company) states: 'first run sold out like just within days. Like it just flew.'

  • Spooky purchased a license for an additional song (from Beetlejuice musical) and paid for it after the game was already sold out

    high confidence · Joel describes Spooky getting license for 'Jump in the Line' and closing the deal after the game was sold out

  • Dune code is now complete with final wizard mode and has been streamed by IE Pinball

    high confidence · Joel states: 'They have, I think it might be code complete. Dune, they put in the final wizard mode. Speaking of Carl, on IE Pinball, he actually streamed it the other night and showed the whole game.'

  • Barrels of Fun made changes to Dune's Fadaikin multiball to only be accessible during harvester battles, fixing Joel's previous complaints

    high confidence · Joel describes the change: 'they made it where the Fidaikin multiball... it can only be done during a harvester battle'

  • Code perception significantly affects game sales after the initial 60-day release window

    medium confidence · Travis explains the pattern: 'within 60 days, you start getting the next batch of people... they're wanting validation from people that have experience on the game'

Notable Quotes

  • “We're three guys who like a dunkin' ball. So we came up with a class last name... We call ourselves Triple Drain”

    Joel @ Opening — Podcast intro/theme explanation

  • “It's been two months, February 13th... We apologize. It's been two months, but here we are.”

    Joel @ Early — Acknowledges significant gap between episodes

  • “I think collectors like moments. And if they're in the middle of a moment where that worm is dancing and the couch is dancing and they drain, like, I don't think that's as much of a hurt as like, if somebody put Beetlejuice in a tournament”

    Joel @ Middle — Describes collector vs. tournament player motivations

  • “What you're saying is collectors like to be frustrated when they're playing pinball... I think collectors like moments.”

    Travis @ Middle — Distinguishes collector psychology from tournament focus

  • “Drop the tournament player thing. Yeah, so I think people just get in their own heads.”

    Travis @ Middle — Suggests people overcomplicate game design discussion

  • “Everybody needs to start ripping beers more and just play pinball and let it fly and stop worrying so much about everything.”

    Tom @ Late-middle — Summarizes philosophy: casual enjoyment over optimization

  • “I like it. It's a hard, hard question, which is better, Beetlejuice or Evil Dead? But right now I'd lean towards Evil Dead, but Evil Dead is also a complete game.”

    Joel @ Late-middle — Comparison of recently released games; notes Evil Dead is finished while Beetlejuice ongoing updates

  • “I've run out of complaints... I'm already excited out of the game. I'm pumped to get the game.”

    Joel @ Late-middle — Positive sentiment on Dune after code updates

Entities

Triple DrainorganizationJoelpersonTompersonTravispersonBeetlejuicegameEvil DeadgameWinchester Mystery Housegame

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Pokemon first run sold out within days and appears to be continuing strong sales trajectory

    high · Travis states: 'first run sold out like just within days. Like it just flew. So, yeah. And I'm getting a vibe that I think it's going to keep selling.'

  • ?

    code_update: Beetlejuice receiving ongoing code updates including new licensed music; Dune received final wizard mode and harvester battle/multiball improvements

    high · Joel describes Spooky purchasing license for 'Jump in the Line' after game sold out, and Dune improvements to Fadaikin multiball implementation

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Extended discussion about fundamentally different design priorities between collector/casual market and tournament players; hosts argue tournament focus shouldn't drive all design decisions

    high · Entire middle section of episode dedicated to debate about whether games must be tournament-balanced; Travis notes Spooky explicitly designs for collectors, not tournaments

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Code perception significantly impacts sales trajectory after initial 60-day launch window; negative perception can suppress secondary sales even if perception is unfounded

    medium · Travis explains: 'within 60 days, you start getting the next batch of people... if they claim the code shallow, whether it's true or not... It affects cells greatly every single time'

  • ?

    product_concern: Beetlejuice's Deo mode (constantly messing with flippers during mode) noted as potentially frustrating for some players, though Joel views this as acceptable for collector audience

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.439

0:00
We, we, we're, we're three guys who like a dunkin' ball. So we came up with a class last name. We're a choice right to come to dunkin' ball. And we call ourselves Triple Drain, Triple Drain, Triple Drain. We're Triple Drain. Here we are. Two months. It's been two months. I checked. We uploaded the episode February 13th. We're recording this April 14th. And by the way, when you send your emails to Triple Drain, they don't go to Joel. They go to me. Okay. But you can say Joel or Jared. It's fine. I'll just make sure they get to the right people. I've had access to that email as well, but normally it's Tom's ding, and then I get a message, Joe, you got another email.
1:02
What's happening is people are watching the Flip N Out Pinball stream, and then for whatever reason, the way to contact me, they're emailing Triple Train. So when Tom's like, another email about Joe and Jared.
1:13
But hey, I appreciate it. I appreciate anybody reaching out. But it's been two months, February 13th, so that was the day before Tom's birthday, right? Because your birthday was on February 4th. Yeah, Valentine's Day. Yeah, so Tom had his birthday. I had my birthday March 6th. Travis, you don't, I don't know your birthday. I have no idea. It was three days ago, you asked. Oh, that's right. I wish I had a birthday. Everybody in the group chat was like, happy birthday, Travis. And Joel was just like, honeydicked me and didn't say anything, but whatever. Well, bad birthday, Travis. So we've all had birthdays. In this two-month period, a game has been revealed. Tom bought that game. Tom streamed that game and Tom has sold that game. That's all happened. Sure. Yep. That's all happened. What else has happened? TPF happened. None of us went. We weren't there. That's why we didn't have a TPF show. We had none of that. Yep. Tom has streamed multiple tournaments. He's participated in multiple tournaments. That is true. We've had spring break. I had two weeks spring break. I mean, there was just a lot. And honestly, normally the three of us, we try to record on Fridays, and it was just one Friday after another that somebody wasn't available. So here we are, Tuesday night, 10 o'clock at night my time. We're making it happen. So I apologize. It's been two months, but here we are. Sound good? Are you noticing every time we podcast, we always started out with Joel apologizing. Start with apologies. And Tom, you and I, we don't grovel, Tom. We just sit here and we're just like, you know. I've just given up. So, you know. We got retro wealth. 90% of people are down on me anyways. So I'm just like, you know what? That's fine. We just got to thank you, B.U. Oh, yeah. He messages us and he goes. I need a podcast. Do you think that was Ralph talking to us or do you think that was AI talking to us? It was probably AI. He's been living in that AI world. I saw their JBS show, the three of those guys. I guess they took the episode down because there was an audio issue. Oh, bummer. Did they? Yeah, I guess so. I saw Jamie posted something about that. Man, we've never had to do that. I know, and I'm all excited because I have this long drive to Michigan to play the pinball at the zoo tournament. Well, hopefully it's salvageable. Is that just a recent one? I think it was like they released it this morning or something like that. Fucking AI by Ralph just not doing it. Well, good for them for, you know, being consistent about making podcasts, getting them out, you know. Hey, we've talked about it. We have talked about it. We have. We have. And we've done stuff on our Patreon, too. At least I've tried to. I've been active where I can be. So we now have over 100 Patreon supporters. Fun fact, there's a free tier. There's a free tier. So the vast majority of those are the free tier. So all the paid will go to free. That's what you know. Honestly, the goal we've always looked at the paid Patreon supporters is thank you. Like, thank you for just supporting this. And we try we try to fit these in. We do this because it's fun. We do this because we enjoy just chatting it up, the three of us. And it's crazy that people enjoy having enjoying these discussions. So if you're a supporter on Patreon, thank you. Thank you so much. I actually just renewed our Zencaster license. So that's a few hundred bucks. I had to pay our taxes on our Patreon. Like, it's essentially a wash at the end of the day. But thank you for supporting us. And we very, very much appreciate that. But we are trying to do more with Patreon because we realized the three of us, we were sending like little videos and memos and stuff to each other with random pinball thoughts. And we thought, you know what? Patreon would be a great spot for these. So we're going to post those more on Patreon. So feel free to follow us there. Another thing, YouTube, we're trying to get to a thousand subs. So if you haven't subscribed, even if you don't watch us on YouTube, I would love to get to the thousand.

“The code, the code, the code thing... If people realize and they hear that, hey, they like if they claim the code shallow, whether it's true or not, whether they claim rules aren't fun, whether it's true or not... It affects cells greatly every single time”

Travis @ Late — Explains how code perception drives sales after launch window

Dunegame
Pokemongame
Spooky Pinballcompany
Barrels of Funcompany
Spooky (designer)person
Bugperson
Carlperson
Ralphperson
IFPAorganization
Flip N Out Pinballvenue/organization
Great American Pinballvenue
Neil Grafperson
Keith Elwinperson
Jamieperson
Pinball at the Zooevent

medium · Joel: 'having a mode that is constantly messing with your flippers can actually be very frustrating because you can't hit the shot'

  • ?

    community_signal: Triple Drain gaining Patreon support (100+ subscribers, mostly free tier) and attempting YouTube growth (targeting 1000 subs); planning increased Patreon content with behind-the-scenes pinball thoughts

    high · Joel: 'So we now have over 100 Patreon supporters... we're trying to get to a thousand subs on YouTube... we're going to post those more on Patreon'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Spooky Pinball proactively licensed additional song for Beetlejuice (Jump in the Line from Beetlejuice musical) and paid for it post-sale despite game being sold out

    high · Joel: 'they got a license for another song... they closed the deal on that and paid for it after the game was already sold out. Like, there was no need for them to do that.'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Dune appears to be code-complete with final wizard mode and additional side modes/quests implemented

    high · Joel: 'They have, I think it might be code complete. Dune, they put in the final wizard mode... IE Pinball... streamed it the other night and showed the whole game'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Spooky appears committed to ongoing Beetlejuice updates and improvements; multiple code versions being deployed post-launch including mini wizard mode

    medium · Joel: 'Now, to me... they're adding more to Beetlejuice... after you play three or four modes, there's going to be like a mini wizard mode. That was not in the game.'

  • ?

    content_signal: IE Pinball showcasing complete Dune gameplay code; Tom streaming multiple games and tournaments; community relying on streamer validation for game evaluation

    medium · Joel mentions IE Pinball streamed complete Dune; Travis explains secondary buyers seek validation from people with experience on game

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Travis works for a pinball manufacturer; provides insider perspective on sales patterns and code perception impact

    high · Travis identifies himself: 'As somebody that works for a pinball company, is Pokemon a success?'

  • $

    market_signal: Typical pinball game sales follow pattern: strong initial launch (days), then code perception becomes critical factor at 60-day mark affecting secondary wave of buyers

    medium · Travis: 'within 60 days, you start getting the next batch... And if people realize and they hear that... affects cells greatly every single time'

    • 5:29
    Let's get to that thousand and then we'll retire, I think, apparently. So, okay, now that we got all that out of the way. We're going to be the YouTube channel that just releases a video like every couple months. I'm back, guys. Life update.
    5:44
    What's actually happened? So we've all gotten older. We've all had purchases. We bought machines. We sold machines. I wanted to, I actually looked at our last episode in February and we actually talked about Beetlejuice. We were talking about Beetlejuice because Travis and I played it at Pinball at the Beach. Tom, have you spent time on Beetlejuice yet? Have you had an opportunity to play one? I played one game and that was during Pinmasters. I snuck over to Great American Pinball. Well, Mike Nogle, he opened up his place. He was closed on Sunday for me to play it. Actually, myself and Neil Graf, my son. But we got a game on it, and I thought it was cool.
    6:31
    Great. That's your one pin, your one game review? One game. There we go. One game. Okay. So you have one on order, and do you still have one on order? We still have one on order. Okay. There we go. What did Neil think? He enjoyed it. He thought it was cool. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's always hard to judge one game, but it's, yeah, we thought it was pretty neat. Yeah. I streamed it. We had Bug on the second stream. And honestly, I know my brother loved it. My brother absolutely loved it. My wife actually really enjoyed playing it. But I enjoyed it as well. I think it is fun. I had so many people are like, which one's better? Beetlejuice or Evil Dead? Beetlejuice or Evil Dead? I would say overall, Evil Dead shoots better. Evil Dead is a better shooting pin. But I like the theme of Beetlejuice better. And I enjoy the modes. They've just done such a good job of just fully diving into story-based modes, modes that focus on the mechs.
    7:38
    You know, like, I think the Deo mode is an incredible mode. The more you do it, though, you realize, like, having a mode that is constantly messing with your flippers can actually be very frustrating because you can't hit the shot. So it's just one of those things where I'm like, okay, I understand Spooky has realized they are selling to the collectors, the enthusiasts. Their goal is not tournament players. Their goal is not, they don't really care about points. So what you're saying is collectors like to be frustrated when they're playing pinball. I think collectors like moments. And if they're in the middle of a moment where that worm is dancing and the couch is dancing and they drain, like, I don't, I think that's, that's not as much of a hurt as like, if somebody put Beetlejuice in a tournament, that's a different story. Like, I feel like people would actively be avoiding the deal. I mean, so, okay, there's been this weird thing that's been going on for like, I think two or three years now, maybe four or five. I don't know. What do you think, Tom, that for whatever reason, content creators and other people out there that don't necessarily play tournaments think that we know everything. Right. And we've never claimed to. We continuously say, like, the games are just made to for the masses to play, just like we talked about. Right. But you're a tournament player, so you don't. Well, it's like we talked about the best tournament player in the history of pinball. That's like the best designer doesn't even make it specifically for tournament players. You know, it's like you can't you can't do that. But for whatever people say, it's so weird. It's like us as tournament players, we know that and we accept that because we have to work around it. But yet non-tournament players think everything's geared towards tournaments and it's not. Otherwise, these games would be, I don't know, balanced. It's not always balanced. Like it's I mean, it's a pinball machine. That's it. True. But Keith Elwin, he makes balanced games. He like he makes games. Ray Day makes balanced games to an extent. There's always there's always an exploit. All you got to do. OK, watch ZMAC play any of those games and tell me how balanced everything is. Like people couldn't find exploits like this is the reality. But what we're talking about is, is just that's the bone I have to pick that everybody seems to think everything's about tournaments or we got to. No. Don't worry about that. And we just don't. I'm not trying to. Do you really? I'm not trying to say that. It's not you, Joel. There are others. I hear this all the time. It's not you, Joel. It's 98% of people. It's the damnedest thing. It's just like, at the end of the day, it's just pinball. It's like, it's going to have a mech. It's going to have flippers. It might have pop bumpers. It might even have ramps. It might even have an on and off switch. But it's just like at the end of the day, I think all that really matters is how's the gameplay. And I think if you ask somebody to really define, especially a non-tournament player, what makes gameplay tournament worthy, they would have no idea how to conceptualize that. No idea how to define that. And I think probably even 95% of tournament players wouldn't even know that either. I don't even know if I even know that. So it's like, why can't we just enjoy the games, Joel? That's a good question. I think the challenge is every pinball machine has score.
    11:06
    And what Bug or what Spooky has kind of openly admitted is he's like, who cares about score? At least when him and Spooky Luke or whoever's designing a game, score is the last thing on their mind. But why does score matter? For tournaments, why does it matter? I think it matters if you're playing against yourself or you're playing against somebody else. But it's like saying, I'm going to go bowl, but who cares what the score is because I'm going to get like a 65. But you're in a tournament and you win by having a higher score. You can go bowling and enjoy it. Yes, if you're in a tournament, you care about tournaments. Right. If you don't play in tournaments, why do you care about tournaments? That's what I don't understand. I don't get it, Joel. Joel, tell us. As a casual player, Joel, that doesn't play any tournaments but just one every 10 years, tell us. Why do tournaments matter that much to the non-tournament people?
    12:01
    I think what it is is I think the worry is that trying to keep a game balanced with score or trying to add in stuff like shot multipliers, play field multipliers, like all these things that all affect the score can complicate a game. And that can be overwhelming to a person that just wants to play the game and experience the moments. So I would have to have a multiplier. Right. I would ask that person, why do they have to go for the multiplier? Just like Tom was saying. Let's go back like 50 years. Okay. We're going to do that. What year is that? Everybody get in your time machine. 1976. Tom has an afro. 1976.
    12:49
    Mm-hmm. I'm not born yet. The world is happy. But anyways, there are EM machines, right? Yeah. OK. You walk up to an EM, right? Are you like, man, I love this pop bumper action. This is really getting me off. I love shooting these targets. So nice. Oh, you're playing it for score, right? Well, yeah, but an EM doesn't have modes. An EM doesn't have moments. There's no story being told by an EM. Did you just say an EM doesn't have moments? Oh my God, Joel. What's the moment going to be? On an EM, the moment is going to be hitting a crazy high score shot. It's going to be building something. Have you ever played Nippet? No. What is Nippet? So Nippet is actually a game where, like, I think it's an alligator. Like there's actually a Mac that grabs the ball and pulls it. Really? It's an EM. Yeah. Look it up. It's fun. That sounds great. Use Google, which wasn't around in 1976, but we're going to do it anyway. We're going to educate you. I think, I mean, I'm not going to sit here. I understand. Sure. Apparently I'm a podcaster and I talk into a microphone and act like I know something about pinball. What I know about is LCD era pinball. That's what I know about. That is what I've done. There's nothing wrong with that. No, I've been very fortunate that I've had every Spike 2 game in my basement and streamed at some point, except for Batman 66. That's the last one that I need to do. But it's like I've spent a lot of time with this. I've streamed a lot of LCD-era games in the last five, six years. So I feel like I can talk that level. But I am no expert when it comes to EM games, even like System 11s. There's only a handful that I've spent time on, like anything of that era. I mean, the .matrix game or the DMD games, a lot of those are the remakes that I've played. So I'm not going to sit here and act like an expert. But I just, if I have to be the voice of the, well, tournament players are making, what could I think? Let's drop the tournament player thing. Yeah, so I think people just get in their own heads. I'm a collector of gifts. What would be a better way to phrase it? One in the dark room over there is the Stern Stars. Okay. Okay? Yeah, yeah. Right next to us is a Harlem Globetrotters. Right next to us is a Flashcourt. Okay?
    15:27
    I see a Harlem Globetrotters behind him. Okay? Yeah. Such a complicated rule set. My God. Yeah. But here's the thing. Yeah. OK, you're talking about LCDs, right? He's about to tell you a thing, Joel. Get ready. I'm locked in. Let's let's relate it to cars. OK, you're you're you're talking about some. Are you going to are you going to start driving a Model T Ford? No, no, Tom. I mean, okay. So, like, here's the thing. It's hard to go. You can't go backwards, right? Okay. Right? So you're going to have to deal with modes and things like that. Because time machines have not been invented, Joel. That's correct. We can only go forwards. Okay. And I totally appreciate what Spooky's doing. And they're trying to make it more fun. They're trying, but they're doing it with modes. Yeah. Right?
    16:32
    Right. But they're not ignoring scoring either. They, I mean, it's in the game. They have scoring in the game. At least when I was talking to Spooky or like when Bug was on the stream, I think somebody asked. They're like, I'm going to play this in a tournament. Where should I start with scoring? And he was basically like, I don't know. Like he's just as a designer scoring seems like it's the last thing on his mind of what's how do you balance the modes? What's a good jackpot shot? Like I remember listening to Elizabeth Gieske and so it was either Rick Nagel or might even been Jack Danger. But they were like, what's a good value for a shot? Like just hitting a shot in a mode. What's a good base value? And I think the answer was like $200,000 or $250,000. Like that's a good, you hit the shot, you get, and it's just to listen to them talk about where the math is and then what should build off of that. And then like, it's just all of a sudden, and I try to focus. It's like, that's just something that I personally, as a pinball enthusiast, I don't think about at all. I do not think about the value of a shot. All I think about is, does this shot help progress me through this mode so that I can get to the next mode? And I can tell you with 100% honesty, I do the same thing.
    17:49
    Okay. All it is is just different strategies for how to play literally the same machine. You're either choosing, do you want to enjoy it because you're following a logical sequence that the software encoder wanted you to follow because of the score and that type of progression? Are you following a sequence to get to a wizard mode? Are you just trying to explore different modes, different multiballs, different features? I mean, anybody can play pinball for any reason. That's why I think when people get – because I just hear this so much across, like, different content people, and I'm not pointing out any one thing because it's like you guys know me. I don't listen to much content, but I talk to a lot of people that they're like, hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And I think it just boils down to people just got to enjoy pinball the way that they want to enjoy pinball because you can take like Indisc, Carl and Jim have proven you can take any pinball machine that can power on and put it in a high level tournament. Jim Belcedo has proven that and he will continually do that. That's why like freaking night was it night moves. Is that the pen, Tom, the cocktail table? Yeah, it's one of those. So it's like you could take anything and make it a tournament pin, but at the end of the day, who cares? Like it doesn't matter because when people are buying these for homes, right, they're buying it to enjoy. Sure, some people might buy it to test it out, you know, for tournaments, whatever, but the vast majority are just playing to play, even on location. The vast majority that are playing it on location, they're not necessarily joining up for tournament's sake. They're just dropping by, putting coin drop and just playing it. And I say that as somebody that's a staff member of IFPA. It's like I think we just got to get out of that mindset that everything has to be centered around that. And pinball can be enjoyed a lot of other ways, even if like if you don't know how to do the multiplier. OK, who cares? Do you know how to do the multiball? Maybe that's fun. Do you know how to start a mode? OK, that's fine. It's like I like to play chess. It doesn't mean I'm going to freaking go out and know every move and beat Magnus anytime soon. I'm going to be down with the 600 ELOs, and I have perfect fun with that. Right.
    20:03
    Yeah, I understand that. I know we've had this conversation. We've had this conversation multiple times because you say just because if I play whatever, if I play Jaws in a tournament, I'm going to play it differently than probably how I play Jaws at home because, like, I'm going for the wizard mode. I want to see all the moments. I want to see all the modes. I want to see that, and I understand. But yet, if you're actively in a tournament, you're saying, what is the safest shot to get me the highest score as quickly as possible? All playing in a high-level tournament really is, is that you know your path, and you're going to do your path. It's like, if I'm going to play golf, seriously, like I'm going to step up to the Masters, I'm going to try to hit it, right? Like, down the fairway, get a good fade or something like that. If I'm playing, like, local, I'm freaking ripping beers and trying to hit it 400 yards. Like, what does it matter? Sure. Yeah, that's a good analogy. I think that's great. I think where I think I mean, I can't. Apparently, I'm supposed to be speaking for the people, but I don't know. All we're saying is, is you you're on our side on this. Everybody needs to start ripping beers more and just play pinball and let it fly and stop worrying so much about everything. Let the tournament players worry about the score. If you don't play tournaments, don't worry about the multipliers. You don't have to worry about it. There's nothing that says you have to. Yeah, I don't know what all the stress is about, I guess. Well, maybe I'm out of this. What are people saying? Like, what are the things that people are harping on right now? I mean, it's like anything else, and I go back and forth on this because I hear this all the time because I get comments just based on the type of content I put out, right? Trying to teach people how to play the game. And sometimes it does involve saying, hey, think about this. Hey, do that. And I try to get it down to the point that somebody could understand. That's fairly new. Because I know if I try to explain it as if somebody's been playing for five to ten years already and we talk on that level, which there's probably like maybe 50 people in the entire world that would actually follow that along or even want to follow along with that. So it's like it's just difficult to conceptualize. I think it's just I've heard this a lot from different people. And I just I think really what we're all getting at is that we just want to see games flesh out more probably. Yeah. Whenever they get released, I think that's really what we're all saying. And so some people might be worried that, well, it's not fleshed out because they're too focused on this one thing. And instead of like this thing, I want them to. So I don't know. I think when we talk about pinball rules, score balance and everything, that can still be a very abstract idea. I don't think any of us can really truly define that except for the ones that work extensively in the industry and actually do that for a living in terms of having to create the code or having to design a game. I think all of them, all those men and women are like at the forefront of that. Joel and I don't have to worry about that. I just worry people get in their own way of enjoying the game when they could. It's like I look at Beetlejuice. Throw a lock in it and play it. Like why does it have to be a tournament game? Why can't Joel just play it and have fun? Let Joel have fun. I absolutely can play it and just have fun, and that's what amazes me when we played Beetlejuice because consistently my scores were way higher than my brother's. Like my ball times were way longer than my brother's, but yet he loved it. Like he had a great time. And it's interesting that at the end of the night, you know, it's like I thought, man, that can beat you up a little bit. But he's just like, dude, I love this. Like he absolutely. So whatever it was that he was playing for the period of time he was playing, he was enjoying. And so I don't know if it's just Beetlejuice does a really good job of there's very little you have to do to then be in another good mode. There's very little you have to do to be fighting the worm. It's the immersion of it. Oh, all of that. And there's no, there's no. Immersion is huge in Pinball. I mean, if you can get somebody to keep going back, that's, that's the bread and butter right there. But yeah, I agree. But that's what I'm thinking of with Beetlejuice. It's like, all you have to do is hit three shots. Basically any of the major shots, you just hit three of them. And then you hit the shot on the right and boom, you're in a mode. And it's like the moment you're out of that mode, pretty easily to shoot three random shots. Oh, you're back in a mode. Or, oh, you want to fight the worm? You just have to hit the worm three times. Like, it was very easy to just keep getting into other things. And I think that's what Jared enjoyed. Now, to me, it's like because it's, you know, over the course of two hours, I feel like maybe not in one game I'm showing off every mode or playing every mode. But over the course of two hours, I can play everything in the game. Like, it's just, okay, in that game I focused on this, on that game I focused on this. Now I understand they're adding more to Beetlejuice, and I think it's like after you play three or four modes, there's going to be like a mini wizard mode. That was not in the game. I think they implemented that now, though. Probably, probably. Yeah. So that's, I think that's the dancing, the stairs thing. Yeah.
    25:16
    But props to, because they made a really fun game, and what was really cool was they added, they got a license for another song, And it's the jump in the line, jump in the bump, bump, ba-dum, bump, ba-dum, bump, ba-dum, bump, ba-dum, it's that song, whatever it is. It's in the game, it's when she's dancing at the end with the stairs. They got the license for that, and they closed the deal on that and paid for it after the game was already sold out. So it's like there was no need for them to do that. But they felt this is needed in the game. We want it in the game. So let's take some of our profits and pay for it to be in the game, even though the game was sold out. Like, I thought that was one of those, like, all right, was that the smartest financial decision? Right on, the game's already sold out, but good on them. Like, it just builds up more. I just think the overall credibility or the collector community is really behind Spooky in what they're doing, Spooky Pinball, And because they are clearly just putting whatever they want in the games, making very immersive games, getting good themes.
    26:23
    And I think they're trying to make their collectors happy. So I know Jared is Jared loves it when we stream spooky games. He just loves those types of games. And I had a blast. I had a blast on the game. So, Tom, when you get yours, I think you're really going to enjoy yours.
    26:36
    And honestly, I think it's a hard, hard question, which is better, Beetlejuice or Evil Dead? But right now I'd lean towards Evil Dead, but Evil Dead is also a complete game. Like it's already finished. So I'm very curious to see where Beetlejuice ends up. So I'll have to hear more about that, Tom, when you get that.
    26:55
    Another question. Oh, another thing that's happened since February. Tom, you got a Winchester. You got a Winchester Mystery House.
    27:06
    Thoughts? I mean, what's your overall thoughts of having a reflection? I like it. How'd Carl do? He did great. He did awesome. It's an awesome game. I'd like to see, like, maybe another code update, but. Yeah, with that, Carl.
    27:23
    No, he's not coding the game. No, it's Carl. Carl's doing it all. He's one main band. I mean, sure, Eric might be involved, but. But no, I think it's cool. I got Dune, and I got Winchester, and I think both games are amazing. That's awesome. That's awesome. My Dune is not here yet. Soon. Soon. They have, I think it might be code complete. Dune, they put in the final wizard mode. Speaking of Carl, on IE Pinball, he actually streamed it the other night and showed the whole game. So it's all in there. They put in some extra little side quests, some other side modes. One thing I think that's really neat is my biggest complaint with Dune was I thought the Harvester battles were boring, and I also felt the Fadaikin multiball, the shot on the far, far right, that lock, I almost completely ignored it because it was a standalone multiball. And somebody at Barrels of Fun got smart and realized, what if we fix that? And so now they made it where the Fidaikin multiball, Fidaikin, Fidaikin, whatever, it can only be done during a harvester battle. And so you have to lock the ball outside of that, and then you can get into a harvester battle and start that, and it just makes the harvester battle more enjoyable, and it's a great way to use that mech. And it was just one of those like, okay, that's it. I've run out of complaints. Like, I'm already excited out of the game. I'm pumped to get the game. But those were my critiques. Those were my critiques on the game. And somehow, by making that change, they fixed both of those critiques in one go.
    29:06
    So I don't know. They're doing a lot right. They're doing a lot right, Barrels of Fun. So I'm really excited to get Dune here in the house.
    29:14
    And I'm glad you're still enjoying the game, Tom. I was curious if that honeymoon phase would wear off. But it sounds like you still like it. That's good. Good game. It's not going anywhere. Good. Okay.
    29:29
    Speaking of going, Pokemon, Pokemon, Pokemon. So, Travis, you're selling all of them, right? They're just, you're just, let me ask you this. As somebody that works for a pinball company, is Pokemon a success? Yeah, yeah, I'd say a little bit. Yeah. I mean, yeah, first run sold out like just within days. Like it just flew. So, yeah. And I'm getting a vibe that I think it's going to keep selling. That's the vibe of it. I think this might sell for a while. I hope so. I will admit we're kind of seeing happen what always happens that I've told you guys about before that.
    30:18
    The code, the code, the code thing. Well, it is. This plays out every time. And, you know, here's the exact sequence. And if any pinball manufacturers listening to this, like here's like literally the truth. Whenever a game comes out, of course, you know, it'll sell decent usually or like Pokemon is just still like crazy the very beginning. Right. But at any point after you get past that first initial burst, that first initial run, whenever people start talking online and they start giving their critique, their review. The Orbit! Yeah. It wasn't us. We didn't talk for two months. Yeah, it wasn't us. But what I'm getting at is then after you get like within 60 days, you start getting the next batch of people that have played it a little bit or they're just now becoming aware of it more and more. And they're thinking about buying, but now they're wanting validation from people that have experience on the game. And if people realize and they hear that, hey, they like if they claim the code shallow, whether it's true or not, whether they claim rules aren't fun, whether it's true or not. I'm not saying that's exclusive to Pokemon. I'm saying this is like any game that comes out, any game that comes out. It affects cells greatly every single time because the second run people are always using online for validation always. And so it's just like that's why I just wish that that a game as soon as it comes fully fleshed out and people do enjoy when I say fully fleshed out. I mean, it's good for release code. It's going somewhere. There's a roadmap where to go. And there's consistent updates coming out that tends to help sales along because people keep seeing, oh, the game's getting updated. Oh, the owners are really excited about it. Oh, the reviews are coming in. It's really fun. It's really good. And I mean, that's there's one how this works. There's one huge negative with the release of it. What's that?
    32:25
    Not my dog, but the Insider Connect. Yeah. No Insider Connect. Yeah. Which is pretty much like the expectations out of everybody. So it's kind of. Yeah. I imagine if you are a for my insider for nothing. I know, if you're a Stern fan, you're wondering what's going on. The Lack of Achievements is weird. And we all know it'll be there, but the question is when?
    32:54
    And when am I going to see all the Pokemon I catched? Unless, do I have to catch them again? No, they're being tracked. They are definitely being tracked because anytime you catch another one, your total keeps going up. So they're being tracked, but something, yeah, I mean, I've heard from more than one person that they will probably own Pokemon at some point in time, but their view is like, they're waiting. Like, they missed out on the LE, so they're like, I'll just get a used pro or premium, you know, down the road. And even if all of a sudden the game gets super hot, this is a title, it's huge. They're going to be making these for a while, so it's just, what's the rush? So, okay, so I think your synopsis there was great, Travis. Basically, it came out like a rocket, and now it might be cooling off a little bit. It might be coming back down, but it'll go right back up as soon as new code releases, then people start playing it. I mean, look what happened with Doom, right? Oh, I died. That guy's a bump. James Bond, same exact thing a few years ago, got a bump. Deadpool got a bump. Guardians got a bump. I mean, we've seen this play out every single time. It's just I will say the one thing.
    34:12
    The one thing that time can't fix is a bad layout. If a game is a bad layout or it's bad mechs or it's boring or something like, honestly, Star Wars Fall of the Empire, that Death Star mech was killing it, Was killing any sort of love or hype for that game. And then luckily, they fixed it.
    34:36
    Luckily, they fixed it from skill. They did. They fixed it. I'm saying they fixed it and they made it better. But if a game has a bad layout where it's like, that shot is just not in a good spot. There are certain things you can't fix when it comes to the layout. So luckily the Death Star mech they were able to fix and then Ray Day has continued to put more and more into that code. A huge shout out to Ray. He actually he did something that I know we complained about or I know I complained about. He just likes you, Joel. That's right. He'll do anything you ask. Yeah. Yeah. My praise is what he looks for. Right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Ray did something that I thought was awesome. And we had a really good discussion outside of this. And it was from one of the podcasts we had. And basically my complaint were some of these modes are same-sy with Star Wars. They're same-sy. It's just like I start a C-3PO mode and, oh, I got some blinky blue lights. And then, oh, great, the layout mode looks pretty similar. So I'm like, where's the story? Where's the whatever? And lots of discussion back and forth. And props to Raymond, but he wrote, is it eight or six? It's whatever the characters are. Is it eight, six, whatever the number of characters are. He wrote that many unique modes. So now all you have to do is play one of the normal modes. So if you play Leia, you play a Leia mode. If you beat that mode, then the next time you hit your force targets and the modes are lit again, if you hit the Leia Shrout, the right ramp again, you get to speeder battle or speeder bikes. And that's like a mini mode that is story driven and unique. And like, that's a moment. And, like, he put that in the game and he made unique things for each character. So that, I don't know, props to you, Ray, for, like, continuing to add to that game and flesh it out. But that was I got distracted by wanting to pat you on the back That game the shots and layouts you can fix a bad layout Or most of the time you can fix a bad layout So all those games you mentioned Travis like Deadpool Deadpool's a great layout. It's just its initial code sucked. Guardians of the Galaxy, good layout. It's just the initial code sucked. My view of Pokemon? Bond. Genwick. Great layout. Yeah, I don't have complaints of this. X-Men. Code. Well, X-Men's layout is a little, I love, I love that layout. But for some people that just, that game, you really got to tweak it. And I don't know, I've had a lot of people reach out to me and they're like, I've seen your X-Men stream and your game shoots great. What did you do? And I'm like, I did this and this and this, but I understand that's not a one size fits all. That's not necessarily going to do it for your game. And I feel bad for that. But with all that said, Pokemon, the one thing I can say very confidently and clearly is I really enjoy shooting the game. Like I really like the layout. I have zero complaints with the layout. The left orbit on this game, I didn't have to do anything to it. It's consistent. It feeds right to the flipper. I've had no straight down the middle. Like, the left orbit, it's good. This is a premium, so I could look at the date, but it's, I mean, it's good. So Stern figured out what to do with the left orbit. I have zero complaints with the game, the way the game shoots, and I like shooting the game. It's fast. I like the dynamic, like the ramps, the way they whip around and stuff. Like, shooting the game brings me joy. So that's where it's like I have, I genuinely think Pokemon is going to end up being a really good game because they got the biggest license on the planet. Why would they not, why would Stern not invest as much as they can to flesh this game out and bring this code in to be amazing? I'm not saying the code right now sucks. It's far from it. I'm actually enjoying the code. I just know it's 0.81 and it's kind of it is shallow in a way like there's only so much to do in the game right now. Yeah, I think the problem is, is people are experiencing the game loop too much, like over and over and over again. You can get through that game loop pretty quickly. Right. Right. And every game, you know, has some sort of game loop. The problem is that you don't want just a singular loop because when you do that, that's when things can get old quick for somebody or something like that. So, like, I get it. You know, it's been a couple of months, so hopefully I think those things will get addressed. Did you guys both go to the media or is it just you, Tom? It was just me. I was the only one they liked. Remember they didn't invite Joel. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. So, but the thing, so you can correct me if I'm wrong.
    39:15
    You might have got this, Tom. I'm not sure. I know because I was at the dealer day and I didn't go to media day, but at the dealer day when they were telling us about the code and they were explaining it, they were adamant that this would have depth for the above average player. I can't remember whether they said we had the whole conversation about this. I can't remember if they even said tournament player. I think they used the term expert player, that there would be plenty of depth in there. And I think they will. I mean, the three coders they have on the game are freaking amazing. Right. So I think it's like you hear that. So, you know that they have an idea with where it's going to go. Right. It's just it's tough because in Pinball, it's a little bit different than like a PC or console game to where you sometimes get a roadmap like a year out. Like here's this, you know, this checkpoint or this milestone we're going to hit for this really. This is the, you know, the new DLC that we're planning on coming out of this new release that we plan on coming out, you know, for the life cycle of the game. And we don't really ever get that with Pinball. So it's always unclear. The only thing we do know is when we look at the inserts of the play field, we're like, oh, that's not being used yet. So that has to come into play at some point. So I guess the question becomes when it does. And I think Pokemon, obviously, it's going to be selling for years and years. I think it's going to be very similar to 2017 Star Wars. It's going to have like a 7 to 10 year life cycle, most likely. Is that the LE behind you, Joel? No, it's premium. Premium. Oh, and it has the lights on it. I put them in. Dang, I didn't think those are out. I think, well, the interior expression lights are universal. They can be applied to any game. Gotcha. Here's a good question on that premium. Does your left to return moonwalk at all? No, I haven't. No, I am so jealous. Mine in my studio, it moonwalks on me like 50 percent of the time. And I like just want to shake the shit out of it and tell them, no, stop it. The game shoots great. Like I honestly think the game shoots. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's fine. I don't have any qualms with it. Right now, I'm not nearly as good of a player as the two of you guys. So I haven't seen this loop. There's essentially two paths you can go down for Pokemon. It's either you focus on playing all four modes. If you've played all four modes, then you shoot the Pikachu ramp and you get to the Charizard mode. And the Charizard mode, if you beat the other modes, then that adds a ball to your Charizard mode. So if you win two of the four modes, you're going to have, instead of it being a two-ball mode, it becomes a four-ball mode, which is pretty cool. So, like, that was for a while when I was playing like that. It's like, all right, I'm just focusing on modes. And then I will tell you, catching Pokemon is addictive, and it's such a good distraction. Like, here I am, I'm like, just focus, just get through this mode, and then it's like, boom, you can catch Pokemon. And it's like, and I look up, and I'm like, I like that Pokemon. That's Psyduck. I like that Pokemon. And so all of a sudden, it's like, all my, it's just, I stop everything, and now I'm trying to catch a Pokemon real quick. Like, just because I want them in my collection. I want to – it's being recorded with – and I wish – yes, right now on the Insider Connected app, I can't show you my Pokedex. I can't show you my Pokemon. I want to. I want to show those off. But I see that. I'm like, I'm distracted. Sorry, squirrel. I want to catch it. And then I drain. And it's like, ah, that's – but once you get through the four modes, that's one route you can go. You can go down that route. Otherwise, the other route is you – if you catch a Pokemon, it'll light a battle. It's a scoop. If you play a battle, win or lose, that's how you move on to the next area. So you start in the grass, then you'd go into the beach or the water area. That's the furthest I've gotten. I've never gotten past water. Forest, then lake. There you go. Forest and lake. So green, then blue. Or you can say grass and water. It's fine. I've never gotten past that. So I don't know to either of you. Is the next one mountain or plain? It would be yellow. Desert and mountain. Have you gotten to either of those? I've gotten to Desert, but I wasn't able to get it to go past that, so I'm not sure. I thought you could capture up to four Pokemon right now, but for whatever reason, I could not get it to go. I was just constantly like, it's like I got to the end there, and then I ended up looping the game three more times, like just playing the modes, the same four modes, and then just going, yeah. So that's where I assume the depth is going to be. Right now, the EV targets, there's nothing there. I'm assuming they're going to add different modes. You know, once you've played four, I'm assuming there will be four new modes. I thought they mentioned before that they planned on having eight-story modes. I could have swore that they said that at a dealer day. Tom, do you remember that? The media day? No.
    44:09
    I could have swore they said that. All I know is they showed you guys the topper and not us. Oh, that's cool. Which is supposed to be out. Yeah. It may not be a topper. They look cool. I don't know. So the Team Rocket area has four inserts. And as far as I know, none of those are used. And then the mini wizard modes in the middle, there are four inserts, one of which is Charizard. So that to me, it's like there's clearly planned depth into this game. Of course. Well, the Charizard one, it gets used, though, I think, because Pikachu versus Charizard. But that's the Mini Wizard Mode when you've played four modes. So I'm telling you, it's like, okay, you're saying if I play four more, that's another one? Like, I don't know, but another one. So it's, I'm excited, like, I look at the game and honestly, and maybe that just makes me a shill, but, like, I don't get the hate. I don't quite get the hate. And I understand for some, like, I was surprised Jared and I are streaming the game and there's people in chat. Some people were very, like, this is great. I can't wait. I just played this. I love, like, the one more game vibe, at least for me and my skill level, it had it. Because, like, when I drained, it was my fault. This game shoots. It's not like there's, I didn't have the moonwalk situation like you, Travis. Like, if I drained, it's my fault. I suck. I'm the one. So the one more game vibe is there. The game plays fast. But there are some people in my chat that are like, man, I'm so bored. Like, I'm bored out of my mind. And it's just like, okay, that's... And some people are like, which is better, Pokemon or Winchester? I'm like, these could not be more different. And does that mean one is good and the other is bad? They could not be more different. Pokemon versus Winchester. Could not be. Yeah, I think the one thing that I like, I personally, I can't speak for other people, but I try to be careful of that. If I don't like a game in particular, I don't automatically assume that means it's bad because that's not fair to the game because that just means like I just know all. And if I don't like it, that automatically means that game's just a piece of shit. And that's not the truth, right? The game can still be very good or great or a lot of fun. It just happens to not be my cup of tea. So I think some people get that confused, right? Sure. You know what I mean? So you've got to be careful on that. You want to find the good in a game. Except for Thunderbirds. That game is, like, god-awful. Like, that game is truly awful. Some games, it's harder to find the good. Sometimes it is. It's kind of like Bond when it came out. Like, I really liked the way it shot, but there just wasn't, you know, you had like two villain modes and there was nothing there. There was nothing there. And I mean, Pokemon had stuff. Yeah. Like, you remember one of the first videos? It was use the pop bumpers to get the police.
    47:11
    I do remember that. I was like, should I put this out or not? But I'm like, oh, that's where the points are. So Jared and I streamed Bond, and honestly, I've told people it was one of the most painful streams we did because it was that. Like there was no – there was a handful of things in the game, but there was nothing past that. So it's not like, oh, there's only two villain modes, but if you beat them both, then you get to experience this. I mean, there was nothing. It's just – And I've said this in the past. I think that really hurts a game on release. I was about to say that, Tom. Bond is a prime example. If Bond came out, look at Dune. Dune is amazing right now. When it first came out, it was so bare bones. Yeah, well, just taking James Bond just because I was in it from the very beginning of having won the first game, seeing where the rules are at, trying to move the game. I don't know if you guys remember when it first got announced. It was such a weird announcement. I can't remember if that's when the fight died. Right. I can't remember if that's when the price initially jumped. Also, I think the L.A. prices jumped with that game, if I'm remembering right. It was a few years ago. But either way, if that game released even at 75 percent of what it is today, we're having an entirely different conversation that there's no tell on how much that game would have sold. And I get it, you know, from a software standpoint that it's difficult to get these games to that point. Yeah. But man, if somebody in the industry from any company can figure it out and do that consistently, like you're going to be cooking. You're going to be in a very good spot. I'll be honest. It changes a lot. I think Spooky is the closest one.
    49:00
    I mean, they very well could be, and it shows. They sell their games out. So, you know. I mean, at least at this point. Yeah. They're putting enough in the game on release that you're not looping it. And they dangle the carrot of there is some depth. Like, well, I say that currently in the game, at least when I streamed it, there was no reward for playing X number of modes or X number of this. Like, that's the one thing I think is the one thing that really helps with Pokemon right now is there is the Charizard mode is in it. If that wasn't in it, then it would just be like, oh, we're starting another game. I played Bulbasaur and Squirtle last time. Well, let me try Trimander and Pikachu just for that credit. I don't think it's training. Like, you can't even train yet, can you? I think it just adds 50,000 points to a mode or something like that. So it basically nullifies the stand-up targets on the left-hand side as of right now. Well, my challenge, so the people that sit on their keyboard and say, this game looks boring or this game sucks or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My question number one, right, is... They're all tournament players. Yeah, the tournament players are ruining this. So question number one that I have to these people are, have you played it? And unfortunately, if you played it on location and at bad left orbit or this or that, like if you had a bad setup of a game, that sucks. I agree, that sucks. But question number one, have you played it? And if you have played it, have you looped it three times like Travis? Because I'm telling you, I streamed it for two hours and I only got to Charizard one time. Maybe it's because I suck. But like to me, I can't sit here and complain about the code being shallow when I hadn't seen all the code. Like I hadn't seen all the code that was in the game. Now, sure, it only gave me really two options. Like do I want to focus on moving to a new area or do I want to focus on getting to the Charizard? Like I only have that and it's very clear they're going to add a lot more in there. But even when I was focusing entirely on just those two options, those two paths, I only got to both of those paths one time and they were in different games. Now, I've played it a bunch since, and I've gotten to Charizard multiple times since then. No achievement. Come on. Where's my insider? I've got to get an achievement. No, there's no achievements yet. But it's like that to me, it's like if you were to sit here and tell me the game's shallow, well, have you seen all the code? And if you have, okay, that's fine. It's .81. If you wait a little while, there'll probably be more. There'll probably be more to play. There's definitely going to be more. Well, I say that, and I am curious, Tom. You had it, and you've sold it. So like what was what what pushed you over the edge? What pushed you? I was like, OK, I think it was just just the code kind of thing. But it was also it was honestly room. It was kind of one of those things. It was really bad timing. Like Winchester showed up and then like two days later, Pokemon showed up and I was like, oh, great. Right. And so but yeah, I I might, you know, who knows? I might get a Pokemon down the road like I did with X-Men. You know, I got X-Men right away and I ended up selling it right away. Yeah. And later on, I just I picked up a used one. But yeah, and now it's back and I'm pretty confident it's going to stay for for a while. So I like the game and how it's changed. So but, you know, and that's and that's some risks you take as an early adapter. You have to know that, okay, this code isn't going to be here and I'm just going to have to wait it out. And that's the reality of the business right now. I would say it was a risk if you had bought an LE. True. But the fact is you're at a pro. I don't think anybody buying an LE right now is like, oh, man, I took a risk. No, no, I'm just saying it will be easy for you. You bought a pro, you played a pro, you sold a pro. It will be easy for you down the road to buy a pro. I think so, yeah. That's a big difference than you buying Winchester and being like, I'm going to take a risk on it. And then you have a month and you're like, I don't know if it's the game for me. I'm just going to sell it. It might be hard for you to get that game back. Very true. Travis, I'm glad you brought up Bond because honestly that was, when I look back at that streaming experience early on, I just thought that I was like, this game, I just don't like it. And then I heard people over time just like, Bond is great. Bond is a great game. And I'm like, are you sure? Because I played it and it was not. And then I had a random week where Zach got an L.E. on trade. We're like, all right, it looks like we're playing Bond. And Jared and I, neither of us were excited for that stream. We're like, yep, we're playing Bond. And then it just blew us away. We're like, this game is actually awesome. This game is awesome. And nothing, the play field didn't change. The shots didn't change. It's just the code. Yeah, I think too. So I think about this a lot, like probably just way too much. And I don't hear anybody talk about it, but here's the way my mind works. It's that if somebody has an opinion on something, such as a game, code, layout, whatever, they're always going to base that opinion based on their current knowledge base. And their current knowledge base is always going to be affected by any variable that they have around them. So we take Tom, for instance, right? He's a prime example of this. He has a ton of games in his basement. He's got some LEs and he has like all the top tier bangers, right? Yeah. So naturally, if you get a game in that doesn't come close to that, because that game's not fleshed out yet, yet these games are, It's going to get lost in the shuffle quickly. Whereas if that game shows up behind you, Joel, when you have four other options, it's highly likely you're still going to go back and play it over and over again. So situations like that, that might affect somebody's point of view or their opinion on something the same way that like if somebody is commenting during your stream, Joel, about a game, they might be watching it. But maybe the only time they've ever played it was on location. And for all we know, that location could be somewhere that the pins are just treated as an afterthought. Like there's no maintenance or anything to it. Or maybe they never played it. Yeah, exactly. And they just see the theme and they're like, oh. Form an opinion based on, you know, seeing somebody else play the game and not physically touching it. Yeah. And it's like, I can tell you, it takes a long time, years and years to really get to the point to where you could look at a pinball machine. And be able to have a pretty good idea with how it's going to shoot before you shoot it. Like it is like I'm barely there and it's taken me 10 plus years of playing every machine under the sun, watching videos nonstop. And it just takes a long time to kind of get that idea and that conceptualization. But I think that's that's something to heavily consider. Like anytime anybody has an opinion on anything, it's like, where is that truly coming from? Like what point of view supports that based on their experience or based on games that they already have in their collection? It's like the same way. If this thing is the only thing I ever knew, right, and I see Star Wars all of a sudden with its LCD, as much as I load LCD screens, I might be like, wow, this is freaking insane. I can watch the whole entire trilogy right now and this sounds awesome and everything. So I think it just it ultimately depends on like what is somebody's situation and how has that affected their perception of what pinball is. So when I see people that just love spooky games, right, and don't necessarily like certain games, it's like I'm always curious how they came to that conclusion. The same way if somebody just loves Jersey Jack games and they think barrels of fun games don't hold a candle to it. Like, how did they come to that conclusion? Or if they're just complete Stern fanboys and they think everybody else is trash except for anything Stern puts out, how do they come to that conclusion? So, I don't know. These are just, like, directions my brain goes and thinks about.
    57:24
    I'm just glad it's going, man. Yeah, I don't even know if I have a comment beyond that. I'm curious, though, if you guys have ever considered that.
    57:31
    I mean, I definitely have. I think it's – there was a video that NAP Arcade posted today, and it was a new – It's like a speakeasy pinball arcade. It was called like the Under the Glass, I think is what it was called. And he was doing the walkthrough and I didn't watch the whole video. Sorry, Jason. But I watched the first minute and the reason I stopped was it's like it was literally Avatar CE and then with Avatar, like an Avatar tree next to it. And then it was Toy Story with Toy Story toys next to it. And then it went to Elton John and then it went to Guns N' Roses and then it went to Godfather. And then it went to Pirates of the Caribbean. Yeah. And it was just like, who owns this? Like, who is the owner of this arcade that I don't know? That might have been it. Or I don't know if he turned around and then had a whole wall of sterns. I probably should get watching the video. But like when you see it's like somebody bought every single JJP game, like clearly they are a JJP fan if they've invested and continue to buy these games. So I don't know. I know I'm with. Yes, there are people I've met people in this hobby that they they are Stern fanboys or JDP fanboys or, you know, P3 Multimorphic is the best thing that pinball's made and everybody's missing out. Like that's I hey, I'm not here to to poo poo on whatever's exciting you. You know, like if you're passionate about something in pinball and you really love one company over the other, good for you. But no reason to hate on all the other ones. Well, you know, like everybody's going to have their opinion. I think it's just important to have perspective on, okay, what, like if you hear somebody's opinion, think about why do they have that opinion? Like what has caused them to form that type of opinion? Like who do they have conversations with with it? Or, you know, maybe it's just the voices in their head like Randy Orton and they're just, you know, saying whatever it is. So, I mean, that's perfectly fine. Hey, feel free to email us. Us, specifically Tom, at TripleDrain.gmail.com. And if you've got a big opinion, if you've got a strong opinion on something in Pinball and you want to argue it or voice it, shoot us an email. And Joel will tell you you're wrong. So here's the other question then. We've got to kind of circle back here. I meant to ask you two this question. When we're talking about the game loop for Pokemon, how many different variations do you guys think that there is For the modes and for multiball. Okay. To be able to play like whatever mode sequence, place your multiplier, wherever you want, and play your multiball, the Team Rocket, either stacked or naked.
    60:18
    Like how many different variations do you think there could possibly be there? Wait, there's four modes and you're asking you either play the mode naked, how you say it, or you play it with a multiball? Yeah, you can stack it with three modes. So you can't stack it.
    60:35
    Right. And then how many variations would there be for sequences you could play the modes in? Since there's four of them. I mean, you can play them in any order. Right. So how many variations would that be? Four times three times two times one. I don't know. I failed math. Something like that. Yeah. So I think I want to say it's like, yeah, it's like 24, and I think it becomes like 190 different variations or something like that. Like it gets way up there. So what I'm getting at is. But why does it matter? If you play Pikachu versus Charmander. Well, here's why it matters. Whenever, so the way that I get the most out of a rule set, a perceived shallow rule set, is I think about it in sequences. Because, of course, if I play the same mode first every single time and I only do that line, that variation, it could get boring because that's all I'm doing, right? But if I choose to mix it up and try different sequences, like there's not one person on this planet that has mastered every single possible sequence like with that game. So it's kind of like you could you could challenge yourself in that way and say, OK, I'm going to play this mode, but then I'm going to put my multiplier over here because I know I want to play this mode. And you just keep mixing that up over and over and over again. And then you can choose your stacks. So I think anybody that kind of writes something off early on, because you could do that with any game across the board, to where you could always go a different direction and try something a little bit different. So I have three examples of that. One, I owned Simpsons Pinball Party for a long time. Some people think it's the greatest game ever made. It's got crazy rules. I'm like, ah, all this stuff. Shout out to Buffalo Pinball and what is it, Mixer Tuna, it was the Tuna-torials, he used to do this guy, and he did a tutorial for Simpsons. And in his tutorial, he's like, this is the path that I take to get to Alien Invasion because you've got to play every mode. And it's like, you do ride the bono rail, and then while that's running, you do this, and you do this, and you do this. So what I realized was every single time I played that game, I was following that path, the path that he told me to play. And so by doing that, I played Ride the Monorail every single game. And I realized it's unfair to the game because I got bored of it. I got bored of it because I'm playing the same modes over and over again in the same order. And then I did the same thing with Guardians of the Galaxy. When you can pick your character, for me to get to Cherry Bomb Multiball, you have to beat four modes. So I kept playing the same four of eight modes that I knew I could beat. I didn't even touch the other modes. Joe, I'm going to crush your soul for a second. Oh, please. That's exactly what a tournament player would do. I understand. That's because you guys don't have any fun. You guys have no fun in pinball. You don't care about fun. You only care about points. That's the people that have spoken. So I understand. I know that you have your path. But then my other example, so those two games I had and I sold because I realized I wasn't playing, I wasn't enjoying the game. I was enjoying the one path of the game. But my other example is Godzilla. Like, honestly, every time I've seen a tournament player play Godzilla, like, I think it was Raymond or somebody, they were on stream with me, with one of your streams, Tom, and they're like, all right, this is how they're going to do it. They're going to do this. They're going to do Gigan. And while that's going on, it's going to start their multiple. They're going to do multiple. Coming out of multiple, they're going to do this and then they're going to do that. And that is it was like a four step process. And that's exactly what they did. So to me, I'm like, OK, you take one of the greatest games ever made, Godzilla. And if you are playing it in one path, that game is not going to feel so great. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not going to speak for the tournament player, but I know I can pick my path in Godzilla. But what I like about my path in Godzilla is, like, my first Tier 1 battle, I like all the battles. So I want to mix it up. Like, if I get sick of playing Gigan, I just play Rodan. Like, I just play a different one. Like, I don't know. And so why does my mind work that way? Like, why do I give Godzilla the path where I want to play them all? But yet, Simpsons or Guardians, no, I just stuck to the one path. And that wore the game out. I think it's important that you recognize that when it's happening. I think there's a lot of people out there that don't recognize that and they end up selling themselves short on their opportunity of exploring a game more, having fun with a game more. And it's not to say they, I mean, they might be correct with their first assessment, but I think too, like I've caught my own self doing that sometimes where I'm just like, okay, this game is just like, I'm not, it's not clicking, it's not doing anything. And then I just decide, okay, to hell with it. I'm going to ignore these shots completely and I'm only going to do these shots and see if I can't find something fun with it that way. And that's helped me a lot through certain games that mine I've been clicking with. Do you prefer games where you pick your mode versus like, so my two examples, X-Men, you light a mode, you pick your mode. So I know people, the path right now, a lot of people are playing the Sentinel Factory first, the Rogue mode, because that gives them the animal, right? So that's like everybody's doing that first.
    65:59
    Turtles, no, you don't pick your mode. Now, you can hit the targets next to the ramp to change your mode. So technically you can pick your mode. But I don't think people, that's a dangerous shot. So I don't think people spend too much time trying to get to the exact mode and then starting their mode. I think they just play whatever mode's given. Which one do you prefer in Pinball? I go back and forth because I like the idea of how Jaws and The Walking Dead are that you pick out the specific shot that has a mode tied to that shot, right? Yeah. And I do like the idea of picking your modes too. What I do wish existed because the game can get very linear either way. Okay. Right? Like you can still pick the same shot just like Pokemon. You could just pound away at the left ramp and you'll eventually be in Squirtle. You know, you could pound away at the Scars ramp in Jaws. You'll play Scars. But what I wish somebody would do, and maybe somebody's done this already. I'm just not aware of it. But I wish games that had you pick your mode would have it to where you could double your score, but the mode is random. Like you don't know what mode it's going to be.
    67:08
    Yeah, you just pick the question mark. It randomizes and you may get one that's really good. The tournament players don't like random, Travis. Hey, I'm here for fun, not to win world championships. So, you know, something like that. I find it interesting that if you can create a chaotic game, but it's chosen chaos. It's not chaos just for the sake of being chaotic. It allows somebody to take control and say, you know what, I'm driving a bus, and I'm going to drive this mofo right off a cliff because that's where I want to go. I like the idea. I wish something could happen like that. Or we just put one target in the middle of the playfield that ends your whole entire game. I think that would be great. Foo Fighters. I streamed Foo Fighters. I had a blast. I had a blast on Foo Fighters. And those have unique modes. And all those modes are, I don't know, I didn't care about score, but it's like I played them all because they're all fun. It's not like I followed one path. So, Ray, code that in. Why don't you? You either pick your city or there's the option to escape or you give me another option of like drive blind. I don't know. Or just like surprise me. And even if it adds, you know, 5 percent to your overall score, I would probably be picking that every time just because like I enjoy all these modes. So just give one to me. Well, something like that would be hilarious. Like it adds a slight increase to your score. Right. But then it decreases the amount of time you have to complete it. Oh, you're making it hard. I don't want to. No, like there's like risk reward, you know, I think. Yeah. So Elwin kind of touched base on this. I think, Tom, you might be more familiar with these modes than what Joel would be. But the the Kong modes, the New York City modes. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Familiar trend. Choose your own adventure. Yeah. Like something like that. It's it's just like, why can't we have something like that? At the start button, like why can't that just automatically be implemented with the modes like at the at the very front, your tier one modes, your first modes, whatever you're playing that you can make those choices automatically. I was two other examples I thought of like Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice kind of just presents you with a mode, but theoretically you can hit. I forget which shot it is. One of the shots. Oh, it's the it's on the far left. One of the stand-up targets, if you hit it, it'll change to your next mode. So Dune does something similar. It tells you what your prophecy mode is, but then if you hit the left orbit, well, if you hit the orbit, either direction, you can either go up or down. So you can select your mode that way. But maybe that's because I'm lazy, but it's like, oh, it's telling me I'm going to play whatever training for Dune. It's like, nah, I'll just play it. I'm going to sit here and change it with my orbit. I like the WIC lights out mode.
    70:03
    Yeah. Double scoring and it's easy to start. Can't say shit, but. We want, okay, so we want the hybrid. We want to be able to pick the mode, but give us the option to give us a random mode.
    70:19
    Not just the. Yeah, just something different. Just something different. Like, I don't know. How about like you start a mode and then it's like, it's like you choose your mystery award kind of thing. Huh. Use it for whichever mode you want to do it. But if you bypass using it, then maybe there's a slight reduction in points and time, something. Like there's some kind of nerf on you not using it. Maybe you get more points for not using it. That's the risk or reward. But if you drain, then you lose your ball. Yeah. You lose your life ball. I'm trying to think of more games. So Winchester, it's the exact opposite of like you choose your path through the house based on the shots you hit. And the only choice you're making is do you enter the room or do you keep walking? Keep going. And if you keep going, it increases the value when you get to finally play the most, which is like, all right, that's pretty creative. But you're still you're picking your path. So I'm curious. I mean, Carl's a smart enough guy that he's going to try to make it. So there's not one obvious path. Yeah. Always this and this and this. Do you think there's any way to do this to where points aren't affected at all? It's just more or less like progression, which therefore would probably affect the points anyways on its own. Like maybe it just creates a situation where it's more shots to get through it. Or maybe it creates a situation to where the shots stay on a preferred shot more often. Like something that's not too overcomplicated to where it's too confusing for the player. But it's just like little subtle changes to mode, like little tweaks.
    72:35
    Well, you could do, yeah, you could, yeah, you could easily do if you go with the, you know, Foo Fighters, if you go with the city provided, it's 75% less shots or like just automatically or, you know, shortcut or something like that. You could do that with anything. I mean, I'm realizing like. Do you remember when I told you to cover up the score when you were streaming? And you didn't do it? I didn do it because the score is not on It would be very easy to cover up the score on TNA because it there That would be very easy But I realize more and more games are maps You know like D is a whole map You are picking a path You picking a journey Jurassic Park you picking a journey So some people, oh, yeah, if you're just if you're just trying to grind to the end, just stay on the edge. But if you want points, you're going to, you know, hop in the middle or you're going to get wasn't it? It's like T-Rex gives you an extra ball or something. So that's really cool. I know you and you have extra balls turned off.
    73:32
    Which who turns those off? You turn them to people because you're crazy. You guys make poor choices. I just do it to get ready for tournaments. I know. I'm just, I'm, the voice of people, Tom, I'm just really trying to play a two-hour game of modern pinball in our basement. Some of us don't have two-hour games of pinball. Thank you. We have, I mean, I know Ray. We have the user mode again. I know Ray listens. This isn't, I'm not just, I know Ray listens. I know Gieske listens. Carl, obviously. Dwight. Tell me, whoever, tell us why these are bad ideas, please.
    74:06
    When I mentioned the whole that there should be a mode where you hit a target and it kills your flippers, there were people that reached out. There were people that reached out and told me why it was a terrible idea. So, that's fine. That's fine. Man, my inbox is going to be floated. Hit Tom Graft, yep. But it's just a thought. It's a thought to make things interesting and to keep those pathways going. The important thing about having conversation and ideation and coming up with everything, you never want to say no. It's just always you say whatever idea you have, no matter how horrible it is, and then you try to build off it. It becomes and then what? And then what? So it's kind of like you take your target idea, right? So it kills the game. And then what? Like what happens after that? And then you laugh and you have a great time. Oh, bummer. I hit the target.
    75:00
    We're not opening that can of worms again. Bummer. My James did. I think the more we talk about it, it shouldn't kill. It shouldn't get your ball. It should be a mode that either kills your flippers and then spits out another ball. I will admit we talked to a couple of high level designers slash software people and we did figure out a way for it to actually work because we didn't just flat out just say no. Yeah, we laughed at first and we're like, Joel, you're an idiot, but let's let's work with this. And we did come with what I think is a solid idea personally, and I hope it gets implemented. And we're not going to say what that idea is publicly or to anybody else. I just hope it actually shows up someday and it's involuntary. I think it would actually be funny and cool.
    75:52
    Okay, other topics. It's not obvious. We have no list. We're just going. We're just ripping. This is triple drink. Tom, why is your game not on behind you? You always have your games on. I can't afford the electricity because I got to put a riff on my house. Now remember he's running on backup power because he thinks he's running on backup power. I'm actually using my streaming battery to turn on my computer right now. Oh, nice. Nice. Okay. Touche. If you look at Pokemon behind me, it has the expression lights. Yes. So this is Spike 3, right? Spike 3 came out. We all had ideas of what it could be, all this stuff. Spike 3 is here. It's not a Star Wars thing. I know that was people thought like, oh, Spike 3, that's part of Star Wars. Right. No, it's a droid. I've said it before. The I love the screen. The screen truly is nicer than the Spike 2 screen by a mile. Like the blacks are darker. It's bigger. It's a great screen. With that said, I was very curious about the cabinet. I was super curious about the cabinet and what that was going to feel like.
    77:06
    I want to hear it. I want to hear what you have to say. I've heard I've heard 50 50 on this. I'm curious which side of the fence you're on with this one. Okay. When it comes to like, I'm not going to sit here and see if I can break it, right? So, yeah. You didn't do the stress test of jumping on it? I mean, I understand the holes in the front that the legs slightly cover. I know that's a little, like, there are some things that are different. I understand there are things that are different. But I installed these interior expression lights, and that install was so easy. Was it a breeze? It honestly was so easy. It was very clear that, I'm assuming Gomez, I actually reached out to Gomez, I think he was the one who did it, but whoever designed that, it was brilliant. Okay. The entire rails, the entire side rails, they essentially just sit on top of the cabinet sides. And they don't just sit vertically. They actually, like their main force of it sits on top, but there's four posts that slide into four holes on the cabinet on each side, and it's held on with four screws. That's it. So it's like you can take those rails off without having to take the playfield off. That was the thing with the old expression lights. You essentially had to take the entire playfield out of the cabinet. And if you remember, because I had to do this with Led Zeppelin, they did not in the initial instructions, it did not tell you you were going to have to do that. And it was a pain in the ass once we got to the point that we realized we would have to do that. I did it with Wick. I did it actually with Wick and with Seppler. Did you guys know that you were going to have to remove the playfield? No. Like when you started? I figured you were going to have to do it. Yeah. Like I just distinctly remember I was in the middle of trying to do it and I got to the point that I'm like, this isn't working. What do you have to do? And then I finally figured it out. Yeah. That's exactly what I did. I mean, it is pretty impressive that you can take a Stern playfield out by disconnecting like three things. And then you just have to lift it up and hope. That you don't mess it up. Break anything, yeah. I've done it on two games. It sucked. But this, I mean, honestly, was so easy. And it's really impressive how you unscrew those four screws on the side, and you slide it out to the side, and then the whole, the channel that the glass goes in, the expression light channel, all of it. It comes out, and then there's six little screws you unscrew, and then you see this form plastic piece. And part of it is the glass channel. And then the other is this is where you'll slide in your LED rail. And if you had expression lights for the outside, you would end up replacing it with new side metal blades that are going to be custom cut. And you'll slide in another LED strip. So honestly, the install, the most annoying part of the install is just running the wires, which is easy. But then connecting, there's like 12 of those ferrite cores, magnetic like clip-on ferrite cores that you clip on to different parts of the wire to make sure it cuts out any sort of interference. So I filmed the tutorial. Zach's going to edit it and upload it. But I was super impressed, like honestly super impressed with how easy that is. And it adds a ton. It adds a ton to the game. And I hope that's something that Stern obviously keeps doing is making great light shows for the Expression Light speakers. I don't have any in this game, but the Expression Lights in the game, honestly, as easy as that install is, worst case, if you buy the game, have a set, put them in. If you go to sell the game, take them out. Like, it's just, it's so easy. It's so easy to put them in and take it out. You could probably do that in 30 minutes or less, maybe 45. I mean, but it was painless. So I was just really impressed, really impressed that that is, I think, I think the screen is a huge improvement. I think that alone, the fact that expression lights are going to be a part of every game and the install is that easy is an amazing upgrade. The durability side of it, I can't speak for. I, it seems okay. I really, I don't know. What are the, like, what are you, do you guys have any complaints? Yeah, I mean, it's, like I said, it's 50-50. I think I lean more towards what you're experiencing, that the only way that you know that is by doing it, which is getting, you know, new accessories to put in, right? And something that shows why the cabinets are the way that they are to ease of, you know, putting those accessories in. So I think that's important to kind of point out for people. But yeah, we've heard some complaints just based on how they see the cabinet compared to how the Spike 2 cabinets were. And I get it. I mean, it is different, but I don't know. I don't have a feeling either way towards it. So I was just curious to hear what you thought when you started on the cabinets because I've heard it both directions. But you went the good direction that you were talking about how it's actually beneficial and here's why. If the cabinet was worse, I'm assuming we would have a lot more reports of broken games. That's what I think. We haven't heard anything about that. I think it's just people just being jarred by it being different than what they've seen in the past. I think that's really what it is. Different and assuming it was different in a cheaper way. But honestly, I think I just don't want to discredit the engineering that was put into this cab to actually make improvements. The expression light rails are a huge improvement. If that's not your thing, if you don't care about blinky lights, sorry, but it is it is awesome. And the bigger screen is awesome. I know Travis hates LCDs, so he probably hates it. But it makes it makes me think GTF was the true first fight three. The way that we described the Spike 3 system was like the lights are really bright and the LCD is huge. And for the very small community of us that do pinball streaming, one, we need to make better choices with our lives. And two, the one HDMI output is the greatest. It's so much easier. Yeah, to do all that. So I'm super impressed with Spike 3 and the future of that. But when it comes to like, it is funny, I mean, I've moved enough games in and out of it that you can tell like a Stern game feels lighter than the rest compared to you. Like I remember moving, what was it, like Harry Potter in and out of the game. It's like that game is a tank, like not a tank. And maybe I don't mean a tank as in it's the build quality is no. But then you, I remember moving like Funhouse Remake and it was like, why does this game weigh so much? Like this game, like that is, so there's, yeah, there's certain games that are just, they just weigh a ton. And I don't know if that is just, oh, this weighs a ton, which means it's higher quality. I don't know if that's necessarily. This means you need to work out more, Joel. That's what it is. I guess, well, all these pins feel light to me. I don't know what your problem is. Another thing that we can talk about, I just feel like we got to give the listeners, you know, some length here because it might be four months before we record again. You call Eddie. I have not played it. Have any of you played it? Oh, yeah. 75 times. All right, listeners, here comes the link. We weren't at TPL.
    84:48
    None. I have not played it. No, none of us have played it, but I will be, I am. You'll be streaming, man. Were you surprised? No, I'm just so we weren't at TPF, but what I heard, it's like, what's what's the what are people saying? People are at TPF. What are people saying? I heard people talk about they're like Pokemon is cool. It shoots it shoots quick. I mean, that was about it. A lot of people play Beetlejuice. They're like Beetlejuice is super immersive. And why aren't Spooky buying, you know, selling more of them? Like there was a lot of praise, but a game that people talked a lot about was Yukon Yeti. And I just I've been there for the Ninja Eclipse release. I've been there for the Merlin's Arcade release. I think it's cool what Turner Pinball is doing. I just feel like it's very unique what they're doing. And I feel like they have a very unique market that they're selling for. I just feel like a lot of Turner Pinball machines end up in collections where these are pinball enthusiasts with a lot of games and they just want something different. So they're going to try giving Turner a chance. Like that was the type of people I just there was no but like I've never had a buzz about Ninja Eclipse. I never had a buzz about Merlin's Arcade, but there's a there was a legit buzz coming off of Yukon Yeti and in people having a really good time on that game. And and that surprised me. I wasn't expecting that. And I don't what are your thoughts on that? Do you I don't think it's sold out. I haven't heard it sold out. So it hasn't sold 500 something. But I know it's sold at least $250 because they said over half are sold.
    86:24
    Does that surprise you that this game is being received the way it is? Is Whitewater that beloved? That's what Travis is shaking his head to. Yeah, I mean, it's not like – pinball enthusiasts know what Whitewater is. So there's a basis for understanding where this theme comes from. So it might be like a spiritual successor of it, but people are able to make that connection. So I think that's smart regardless. Yeah, I've watched the gameplay to it a little bit. And it's I mean, what's the first thing I told you guys when it first came out, like within about an hour, I was just like, you know, I wasn't sure in terms of just looking at the geometry and some of the shots. And I'm still not sure. But but I, you know, I'm willing to give it a try whenever I do get a chance to play. I think the ball lock system looks pretty cool, though. I mean, I don't know if I enjoy it, like, dumping all down the middle like I saw in a few videos. But I don't know if that's intentional or what. But, I mean, overall, I think layout's fine. I just – the upper play field kind of scares me a little bit, though. Like, I don't think it's – I don't know if it's as good as the original Whitewater upper play field. I think it might not be as good, actually, if I'm just being honest. Same designer? You know? I know. I think his foam core has improved over the years.
    87:49
    Does Nordman do? Oh, he's a foam core guy. Oh, yeah. He did GTF. I don't know. I'm just saying facts. There is a GTF. I mean, I will say that Yeti is nightmare fuel, though.
    88:04
    You don't like the way he looks? Have you looked at the way he looks? I do, and I'm surprised. Is it Brad Dukes or is it Matt Andrews? It's Brad Dukes. Brad Dukes is the artist. I don't know. I'm saying that confidently and I hope I'm right. They have hired him. He was the guy that did, I think he had done Looney Tunes and he did something else. And he's a very talented artist, but yeah, he is the full time. I'm talking about just the sculpt of it. The sculpt of the Yeti. Oh. Have you looked at the sculpt? It's Brad Duke.
    88:46
    Brad Duke. Like, look at the sculpt. Here, I'll send you guys a screenshot right now. Okay. Since I'm the only one here. Okay, I'm seeing the art.
    88:57
    I'm okay with the art. I don't have... Oh, the sculpt. Oh, you see it now. Yeah. Ah. Mm. Oh. So one of the things I heard, so this is, I say, Eclectic Gamers Podcast. If you haven't had enough Dennis Creasel, listen to Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Dennis and Tony, they're great. They are great. And I have something to say about Dennis, but they played UConn Yeti. Oh, let's hear it. They enjoyed it. One of the things they said was that ball lock, though, it's pretty slow. So it's one of those, it may look pretty awesome the first few times, but after a while you're going to be like, can you just get up the mountain? Did you just tell Joel the photo? Because I do not see it. No, I pulled it up myself. Sorry, I'll send it to you. I wasted the last minute of my life. They said some good stuff about Yukon Yeti, but they had somebody write in and basically say, I think this game, I think Yukon Yeti looks awesome, but the art is getting some hate. And so the question is, do you think they'd change the art? Which this is Brad Duke. It's, it's Turner Pinball's full-time artists. Like he's, he, I don't, I don't know. Maybe take, like what, what part? I don't think he's going to redesign the whole art package. That doesn't make any sense. Like I don't have any issues with the art, but there's some people maybe think it is too, I don't know, childish or whatever. I, I, I don't have any issues with that, but. I feel like I've seen this somewhere. Like not. Well, it's the same art style as Ninja Clips. It's the same art style as Merlin's Arcade. It's the same artist.
    90:31
    I kind of like how Zombie Eddie has a bad as Zombie Eddie art, you know, or Dirty Donnie or Johnny Crap. Like, they can all have their things. But so somebody asked, would they change the art? And then somebody else asked, would they change the music? Like, the music seems cheap or shallow or like they need more audio. So the art's hard to change. The music, that is something that's code. That's something that I think could improve. So maybe with sales, they would invest and it would be, the more that I play pinball and the more that I stream, having somebody great doing your sound package can really elevate a game quickly. Like Jeff with Dirty Pool, his barrel of fun sound packages, both Dune and Winchester are amazing. And he just redid Labyrinth. You have, holy cow, why can I not think of the guy? He did Alien and he did Pulp Fiction and he did, I can't think of the guy. People are probably screaming it out there. The sound guy, the sound guy. David Thiel? Is that what you're trying to say? David Thiel, yes, because he did Hobbit. He did like there's some amazing guy. And then Stern has, is it not Jeremy? Why am I cannot think of a name? Jerry Thompson. That guy. Yes. Like those three. Great. I'm sorry, everybody. I struggle. I don't know anything. I just talk. Let's just sit on EM some more. Let's go back that direction. Do they do anything with sound? Oh, no, they have freaking bells and chimes. Yeah. Let me crap on Dennis Crystal. I like Dennis Crystal. He's a great guy.
    92:11
    So, as soon as Tony, they did a review of all the games that they played, and there was a bunch of games they hadn't played before. They played King Kong for the first time. Mm-hmm. And you know what they said about King Kong? They said King Kong was forgettable.
    92:28
    Forgettable. That's what Dennis Crystal said. I mean, that's it. That's it. That's a fair assessment. Everybody's allowed to say that. Yeah. Everybody's allowed to have that. But that was one of those I heard it, and I was just like. I forgot what I ate for dinner.
    92:43
    Joel, are you about the white knight for Keith Elwin? Is that where this conversation is going? No, I understand that people are like, that's the last one is Keith Elwin. But they were like, and the way they defended it, they're like, don't get me wrong. It's a great, like, the layout. It's a Keith Elwin game. This is going to be a top 50 game easy. But they looked at it as when you compare King Kong to Beetlejuice to Winchester to Dune to Yukon Yeti, even games they hadn't played before.
    93:11
    Like they're like, honestly, our one game of King Kong was forgettable. Like there's other these other games made a more lasting impression than their game on King Kong. So it's like, OK, OK, I can I can understand that. But King Kong's been out long enough. Tom, I know you own one. Yeah. Do you, what are your overall thoughts? Like, is this a top three Elwin? Is this a mid tier? Is this mid? Is this a low tier Elwin? Is King Kong not getting the love it deserves? Yeah, I don't think it gets the love it deserves. I think it's a good game. I don't know. You always put me on the spot, Joel.
    93:56
    I don't have it. I want to play it more. That's a game I want to stream more. I think it's like a top three, Elwin. Top three? In my humble opinion. Do you want to list those three? No, I don't. I don't want to put you on the spot. Because I don't really give a crap about lists.
    94:16
    I think the layout on Kong is probably his best layout. So how can it be the best layout, but yet somebody can play it, it's forgettable. Well, it's just like we talked about, just people with different strokes for different folks. I mean, Joel, you want every game to be like Legends of Zelda where there's no score, and Travis wants to, you know. I mean, some people want to buy an X-Men and just hit the middle ramp over and over again. Like, that's fine, Joel. I don't want to do that anymore, Travis. Why can't you do that? You'll never get to save the city doing that. I just it's different strokes for different folks. Like it's it's perfectly fine. But I think if I had like one major critique of King Kong and I think really what it boils down to is it's a type of game that the theme is very forgettable for the vast majority of people. People like King Kong just does not resonate. It doesn't hit the same way as, say, like a Godzilla. Right. Like, I don't think I distinctly remember this when I was younger. Me and my friends, there would be two franchises that we would have slumber parties. That's cool you had friends. Oh, yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, it was awesome. I mean, my mom probably, like, baited them into it, like, just said, you know, hey, I'll give you ice cream or something. But either way. So whenever we'd have, like, get-togethers and slumber parties and all that, there would be two franchises that we would always get the VHS. Okay, take it back. Three. One of them, nobody probably even knows, but there's a couple that everybody knows. Godzilla was one of them to where we'd watch like all the different Godzillas. So everybody from my generation, just at least around Oklahoma, they enjoyed Godzilla. Like we'd all talk about it. We all play it. The other one was Rocky. Like that one, like you get a bunch of preteen boys back then. We were like, fuck yeah, we're kicking the man's ass. Yeah. And all that. And then the other one was Puppet Master. We're sweats all the time. Yeah. Yeah, of course. And then the other one was Puppet Master. You guys remember that one? No. Remember that horror movie? Somebody out there knows. But what I'm getting at is nobody had a slumber party watching King Kong. All right? Nobody did. King Kong was Godzilla?
    96:34
    That's it. Yeah, just one. And you know what? We all cheered when King Kong got his ass whooped. And it was blasphemous that they allowed King Kong to even win that. It was so dumb. Spoiler alert if you haven't watched the 1970s version. But still, it was so dumb. So it's just a forgettable license that unfortunately is on a great pinball machine. I personally think that's what's happening with that. I mean, just based off the feedback we hear and everything else, which I get. I mean, it doesn't mean that there's not King Kong fans out there. It's not Pokemon.
    97:09
    I think that's... What would happen if you put Keith Elwin on a crazy team? I'd retire. Like a crazy team. What would there be to do? Like a Star Wars, a Pokemon. Come on, give them the big, what if Keith Elwin had Harry Potter? I really had Jurassic Park, but everybody kind of crapped on that because it was like, oh, there's a Darius one. Yeah, it wasn't the movie, Jurassic Park. Yeah, that one too. I think if, and this is no slight against John Ward at all, but I just, I know for a fact that if Elwin would have done Star Wars 10, it's probably selling close to the same amount as Godzilla. Like I guarantee based off every metric I've seen of, you know, all the big collectors we've talked to that don't frequent message boards or anything like that. It's like they've become aware of who Elwin is just because they buy, you know, the LEs and they get familiar pretty quick. And so, well, you know, but Kong was the first one that didn't have the needle for him. And it's because of the theme, because that's what they're looking at first. If Elwin would have been on Star Wars, that means we would have got Rick Nagel, but instead we got stuck with Ray Day. So the sales just way up. It's crazy because I would be so curious what the interpretation would be across the board from every design team and every software team of having the same team. Like obviously that will never happen, but I'm always curious because I like the direction that Ray's taking. Star Wars. What's that? Steve Ritchie, Dwight Sullivan, Star Wars. And now we have John Borg, Ray Day, Star Wars. And they couldn't be more different than each other. They couldn't be more different.
    98:56
    That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting for sure. What else we got? I'm curious. We got to link in. We're linking. Are people still listening? That's all I'm going to say. Glurp, glurp. We got Dungeon Crawler Carl. We got a Dungeon Crawler Carl rumor. Oh, that did come out after this. We got a Dungeon Crawler Carl rumor going. And I'll lead with this. I don't like to read. I don't like reading books. I don't know if preps can read. Honestly.
    99:29
    I'm pretty sure I can. Becca! Read this! No, but with all that said, I got to give a shout out to Becca. Becca got Carl, our good friend, Carl D'Angelo involved in Dunder, Carl, Carl, and Carl recommended these books to the three of us. And I'm in a book club with my wife's family, and I do audiobooks. I listen to one a month, and I was like, you know what, fine. I need something besides a freaking romance drama. I need something that gets me going. And I gave it a shot, and here I am. I listen to all seven books. I can't wait for book eight. Like, it's an awesome and fun, enjoyable franchise. I know Travis is hooked. Tom, I don't think you got as hooked as Travis and I. No, I started listening to it, and I was in Chicago traffic, and I got really pissed off, and then it was bothering me, so I couldn't listen to it anymore, and I had to throw some music on. But I did enjoy, like, the first couple hours I listened to. Well, you got a long trip. You've only listened to two hours of book one? No, I think I've listened to like three or four, but literally like it was like a six-hour trip. What? Have you ever driven in rush hour in Chicago? No, Monica does that. I don't know. Monica does that. That's why I don't live there anymore. You should give it more. You should keep going. You got another long trip ahead of you. People listening to this and you're like, what are you talking about? It's a lit RPG, a literature role-playing game type book. And if you're looking, it's crude, I'll tell you that. It's kind of graphic. It's got profanity, and it can be gross at times, but it's hilarious.
    101:19
    It's legit. It's one of the best book series I've ever listened to. It's got an amazing storyline, and it's growing. The following of Dungeon Crawler Carl is growing. It's becoming a big thing at the different conventions and whatnot. I think it's Paramount just picked up or one of the TV channels just picked up. They're going to make the books into a live action show. So I think it's going to be a big franchise. The rumor is there is somebody out there that has that theme for pinball.
    101:51
    My question would be like assets at this point. So, access are books, right? Yes. But there's nothing visual. Yeah. I mean, I've seen some, like, art representations of the characters. That's about it. That's, like, the only approved art, technically approved art for the series. I thought there was, like, a graphic novel coming out or something like that. There's a few different things.
    102:20
    Am I making that off? No, no, there's a spin-off coming. Yeah. It's a deep, rich world. I think I've listened to the first book now four and a half times. I've heard every book twice, and I'm trying to listen, go through my third time now. It's really fun. Yeah, it's a great series. And then, what, the eighth book comes out in less than a month now? Yeah, I am all in on the audio book only, though, just because they have one guy that performs all the voices, and he is incredible. And so that was the thing. His name is Jeff Hayes. I think it's his name. They already mentioned that he is going to do the audio. So for him to be on board, that's huge. That's like getting Daniel Ratcliffe in Harry Potter. That is huge. So to me, whoever's making this game, I don't even need an LCD screen. Like I don't need you to make characters and movie clips or anything. You can go Pulp Fiction and just go all audio. I'm okay with that. I think this has a really big following and I'm super curious to hear who has this. There's a lot of rumors out there. Is this a big enough license for Stern? Doubtful. Is this a big enough license for JGP? Doubtful. Do I think Barrels of Fun has this? I don't think they do. I want them to. This was a low-key, bigger license than what people realized. It wasn't a Kickstarter, but what was it called that came out today, Joel? Like a backer kit. Yeah, they raised for, I guess, a game that associated with the theme. They raised over $2 million just in the span of seconds. Like a role-playing game? Yeah, exactly right. So the fandom of this is massive. Like we're talking people will wait in line for hours just to like meet the author, get an autograph. Yeah, he's down on Earth and everything. Like, it is big time. I think once it gets out there, even a TV show, I think it's going to grow massively. It absolutely could. I'm just curious who was smart enough to grab it now. And my only fear is it's a really small pinball manufacturer. And I just, that's one of those things where, I don't know. I don't know who got this. Well, yeah, and what Joel's not revealing either, Tom, is that him and I, we talk Dungeon Crawler Carl nearly daily. Like, that's how obsessed we are with this. Why don't you talk to me? Well, because you've only watched it in two minutes. We have a Dungeon Crawler Carl, like, ten-ball group. There's four of us. We literally quote it back and forth to each other. If we did, like, a Samantha quote, you'd have no idea what we're even talking about right now. But that's book five, bro. I think I'm a freaking nerd. Do you have any Raul quotes? You don't, do you? No. I'm ascending. I got nothing. It's so good. Yeah, and we've been doing this before it was even announced, like, in Pinball. I'm actually looking at this game right now.
    105:28
    Oh, the role-playing game? What's on backer code? So I'm just, I'm very curious. This is one, if I'm going to sit here and play the game of, like, what are the Pinball rumors, what's coming out next? Honestly, this is the theme that I'm most excited for, but it really depends on who gets it. That's the one theme. If I was ever to either design or help with rules or do anything, that's the one game I would absolutely kill to be on.
    105:56
    It's so great. The whole world is fantastic. I already told my distributor to put me on a list. You're a smart guy. That's his part, yeah. I would get an LE of a DCC. Like, that's how much I'm obsessed with it. It's a good book. I would encourage people to give it a shot. It might not be your cup of tea.
    106:20
    As a role-playing game, this would be awesome. As a Pinball game, it would be awesome. There's so many characters. And your voices are great. Yeah, the real quick synopsis of Dungeon Crawler Carl, and you learn this in the first chapter, is basically aliens show up and they make the entire, there's the collapse. Everybody, every building in the entire world literally sucked into the earth. If you happen to be under a roof, whether that was in a car or in a building, you're dead. You're dead. So all the people that were outside of these buildings are like, now all of a sudden they're looking around and the world is flat. And then these doors pop up and your options are either like they hear a voice. Your options are either stay on the surface or go down the door. And if you go down the door, what you're entering is you're entering the dungeon. And there's this called Dungeon Crawler World. It's a TV series that is done. It is put on by a corporation.
    107:15
    And this is for a difference. There's a whole thing of aliens that they basically mine. You have resources and then they make so much money. This is the most popular show every year across the entire universe is watching the native species of whatever planet they're harvesting try to survive. That's basically what it is. And what is cool is it's not just, sure, level one is just straight up dungeon. Like they're in a dungeon working their way through a dungeon. But all the other floors after that, they're not necessarily in a dungeon. They're in different worlds. They're doing different things. And the creativity of the book series just changes. Every single floor is different. And that's what's amazing with this author is how different the books are and the different challenges that are presented to the main character. The main character is a guy named Carl, and he happened to enter the floor with his ex-girlfriend's cat, whose name is Princess Donut. And their adventures are, I mean, fantastic. So there's your quick little synopsis. If you like funny, if you like problem solving, if you like this type of fantasy type, it's awesome. It's an awesome book series. So that's me geeking out on it for a little bit. If you happen to be a fan, let us know. If you're not, give it a shot. Don't give it a shot with kids in the car. Don't give it a shot with, yeah, but just go with the audio book. Please go with the audio book and have a good time.
    108:41
    There's so many great characters too. So many good ones. That get added on. The awesome thing is the true iconic characters of it. Like there's two iconic characters at the very beginning, right? Yeah. But the other iconic characters don't even show up until later on. And it's just fantastic because you can come in and out of it. So it's almost like Game of Thrones-esque in a way that a new character comes on and you don't even need to know their backstory, But you immediately get what their motivation is. And I guess the writer that does this, it's so prolific how he can pump these novels out. Yeah. But it's crystal clear what the motivations are. And what's even better with the audio books is Jeff Hayes has unique voices for everyone. For everyone. And they're so good. Like, when you listen to the book, there's never any confusion of who's talking. Like, you know. No. The different characters. It's like listening to a movie. It's really well done. So enough of that I know it not Pinball Well we already lost like 75 of our audience but it awesome Joel are you familiar with who Liv Morgan is from WWE
    109:49
    Is this the picture you posted the other day? No, but this – I don't know. I don't know anything about wrestling. No, somebody sent this to me because it happened on Raw the other day, and I just sent it to the group chat. It looks just like Samantha. Yeah, you sent that picture. Yeah, I agree. It is fantastic. Yeah, it's worth, I don't know, just give it a shot. That's all I can say. Do you know who Samantha is, Tom? I don't because I haven't got to tell them. No, that's called five. I got to tell them. Well, no, you're going to ruin it for a tell me off. No, no, I got to tell you now. I'll tell you now. Okay. Somebody's going to be like, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Fine, fine. It's worth it. Okay. With all that, I'm just saying. Samantha's the best literary character in the history of history. She's awesome. I think I know the character just by looking at the game and seeing the live more of the picture.
    110:46
    So with all that said, when I look ahead with rumors, Transformers, Fallout, Sonic, Dungeon Crawler Carl, those are all rumors.
    110:57
    Circus Voltaire was announced. Are we excited about that? American Pinball's back. Are we excited about that? Yeah, why not? Sure. Why not? It's more pinball. Might as well redo Shadow and Whitewater. Oh wait, that's you, Kevin. I do like Circus Voltaire. Maybe from Jackpot. I like Circus Voltaire. I think it's a fun layout. You want Jackpot? No, I was just naming games I have. You want Jackpot remastered? Indiana Jones? That would be huge. Oh, yeah. Just do all the Bailey Williams. It's fine. I mean, imagine all the possibilities. They're calling Circus Volterra re-imagine, right? Here's what I want. I want a radical redone. I think I mentioned that this year. Redo that, make it Tony Hawk Pro Skater. Yeah, and then update the code. Have you played again? You guys have to have played.
    112:05
    You might be on to something, Colin. Maybe there's a radical game in active development right now. Do it. Maybe there is. Maybe there's not.
    112:18
    I'm just going to keep saying maybe there is and maybe somebody will run with them and put the rumor out there.
    112:24
    I will say I am excited to see Circus Voltero be done. And what I'm very hesitant to see, sorry, Travis, but like the Funhouse remake, the additional code did nothing for me. That was a fantastic game, Joel. I don't know why it didn't win all the twippies. It did nothing for me. What additional code? What are you talking about? The 2.0 package? Oh, hey, I didn't do it. It did nothing for me. I didn't do any of that.
    112:51
    The 2.0 there was way before me. I've played Circus Voltaire a handful of times, and I looked when they announced it. I did a quick YouTube, and there's like Jack Danger has a video on Dead Flip where he beat Circus Voltaire. I think it's in 18 minutes. Like it's there's not if you want to talk about shallow code, there's really not a ton to do in the game. OK, to beat the game. So let's see what they add. Oh, I know it's still fun. I'll give you some inside baseball here, Joel, because the projects are at the end of it. Anyways, there may or may not be in existence a full write-out skeleton of a Funhaus 2.5 code with rules.
    113:36
    And I may be the only one that actually is in the possession of that. Oh, so you made them. You made the rules. I didn't say that. It's very hard to make a classic. I'm just saying I'm in possession of it. I think it's pretty good. I think it would be fun. Put that in the game? Because if you have it on paper, I can't play a piece of paper. No, no, no. Nobody is. I'm just saying that it exists. So, I mean, I could tell you what it would have been like. Not on the podcast, but off podcast. You'd probably be like, okay, that sounds fun. It probably would have been better.
    114:10
    I mean, it's okay. It's fine. It's just you didn't do it for me. So that's where I'm very curious to see what the Circus World Hair release where, like, to me, Cactus Canyon, the lineman sheets extended code is a reason to buy this game. Like, it is that code, what they added, made that game incredible.
    114:34
    Precise required. This is music to my ears. The Punt House 2.0 code is not reason to buy that game. So what you're saying is if somebody can put on good code with solid rules to a remake, that increases the potential for sales in the longevity. It's a crazy idea. Yeah. I'm not the one saying it, people. Crazy idea. I'm not the one saying it. Yeah. That's why we need Josh's Monster Bash rule kit that he's mentioned more than once that him and Lyman were working on. I think you mentioned it. He never mentioned it. No, he did. He did on Buckus. Of course. Yeah. I'm out of topics, guys. I don't know if it's not.
    115:16
    Whoa. I'm looking through my whole brain. Wait, wait, wait. Joel can't talk anymore? Well, it's sad. He just said I'm out of topics. We haven't talked for two months. Two months. And I understand it's been a slower two months. So, I mean, if we just go through, like, Harry Potter's still awesome. You still like Harry Potter, Tom? Yeah. Yeah, Harry Potter's still great. Does it hold up well against the other games that you have in your collection? Yeah, it does. When was the last time you played it? Three months ago. Let me ask you this, Tom. Somebody brand new to Pinball. Somebody's like, they still, they make Pinball? Somebody brand new to Pinball. It's like, I need one. I need one, right? And which would you recommend? Get a win, Jester. No, Harry Potter or Pokemon. Pokemon, like let's say they have kids, 10 year old kids. 100% honesty? Yes. Which would you recommend to a brand new pinball person? And they like both themes. They're just like, I can't decide. They're like, we are. How old are the kids?
    116:25
    Let's say they're 10 year olds. Like they just, they love Pokemon, they collect cards, and we've read through all the Harry Potter books and they've seen all the movies. Like, but we love the themes that are not. Play the damn games, make your own decision. They'll get it. With a ghost of a decent part.
    116:42
    Kid smells. I'm telling you my answer to that question would be Pokemon. I would say Harry Potter. I would say Pokemon based off the variables you just presented. I'm saying it's turned new to Pinball. I would say Harry Potter just because I think I like the game better because it's fully fleshed out. And I like I just like it better. I like the thing better. I don't I'm not a Pokemon guy. I don't. That's fine. I don't know. I don't. I'm not like I enjoy Harry Potter more than Pokemon because I identify with that theme more than anything. I didn't grow. I mean, I grew up during Pokemon, but I didn't grow up playing it or anything. I had to learn it. Like when the Harry Potter movies came out, I was like, cool. I want to see it. You know, I just Pokemon, I'm kind of like, what is this? I get it. Five million creatures.
    117:41
    Tom, you know what we need? A new WWE game. Damn. Let's go. We need it. Let's go. Things have changed. Now we're talking. We need something new. CM Punk? Dude. What about Roman Reigns? Here's another question. People are spending $30,000 on a WrestleMania ticket. Of course they will buy a pinball machine. Get the money. Same group of people. And they're saying, we want to buy a pinball machine for our family. And you have to say, WrestleMania. CM Punk's WrestleMania LE edition. It plays freaking cold of personality every single time. You have to start Pokemon or Star Wars All the Empire. Which one would you recommend? Wait, I was going to say, you guys listening. New family, it's a family, they're new to pinball. New family, okay. New family, new to pinball, they're saying, we're going to put one in our basement, we're excited. We got 10, 12 year old kids, Sterns, Star Wars, Fall of the Empire, or Pokemon. This is easy. Are they a Disney family?
    118:53
    Are they a Disney family? Do they go to Disney World? Do they travel? Okay, Star Wars, easy. Next question. I literally hate making decisions for other people because it's like, Joel, which golf cart do you want? Do you want that golf cart or that golf cart? And I'm like, tell me, Tom. Yeah, get this one because it drives faster and you're like, my kid would fall off the back. Tom, you would be floored at least. Like, I mean, it's often new people to pinball. They need that guidance. And so these questions with Joel's asking, it's the same exactly we hear all the time. I absolutely love the Star Wars thing. When I was growing up, Star Wars was the bomb.
    119:43
    And this is the best Star Wars game that I've played. I will agree with that. I do think Star Wars Fall of the Empire is the best Star Wars game. I really like the Daddy East one.
    119:53
    But in comparison, this just has it all. So I do think it's good. And it's probably the LCD that Travis hates, but I don't care. And the expression lights and all that. What I'm trying to voice, though. At least I can't get on a pro. I'm going to start enjoying the LCD more. That's like my New Year's resolution here in April.
    120:17
    You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to get those inner. I'm going to drill out my cabinet. I'm going to start just watching the LCD as often as possible. I think it's called just TV. I'm not even going to worry about the slippers. I'm just going to watch the LCD. Just the track mode all day. Don't look at the score. Because that's... Well, okay.
    120:40
    The reason I was asking the question... The reason I was asking the question is I would hate... You just want me to not say Pokemon? No, I just, I would hate to somebody new to pinball to be, to fork over 10 grand to put a pinball machine in their house and the game is either too complex or too hard for them to like enjoy it. I think for a new player, I think if you, I think if you hate King Kong and you hate like the new Star Wars, I think Pokemon is the way to go, honestly, because it's simple to learn. Yeah. It's very simple to learn at this point, whereas those other games are like you kind of need an encyclopedia to like understand what's going on. And I'm not I'm not saying that as a tournament player or collector or somebody who's been in here for 15 years. I'm saying it as somebody who trying to see the world through a novice's eyes. That's what I'm that was what I'm asking. Yes. So in that regard, I would say, yeah, maybe Pokemon's for you. So tell me if I messed up, but I had a friend who they haven't bought a pinball machine, but when they talked about wanting to buy a pinball machine and they looked at, I was like, well, I suggest you go with a Stern pinball machine, like just because he's abused this and this and this. And at the time I was like, here are their current themes and we have all this other stuff. And the game that stood out to him theme wise was Jurassic Park. And I was hesitant to recommend it as a first pin because I think the layout can be somewhat challenging. And I think the code can be somewhat complex to a novice, brand new, somebody brand new into pinball. Here I am getting into it. Should I mess up? Should I have not hesitated recommending Jurassic Park? Yeah, I think you messed up. Okay. And I'll tell you here's why. Because theme. Yeah. Any time you have somebody that's brand new to pinball, always let them pick theme first. And the reason for it is they don't have any knowledge of what pinball is really beyond maybe going to location and playing it here and there, right? Because we're talking about somebody brand new, right? Brand, brand new. Not somebody that's gone to league for a year and just never owned a pinball machine. Somebody brand new. So I just always recommend theme first because that's what will keep somebody engaged because they don't know what's a good layout. They don't know what's good code. They don't even know what rules are yet. It doesn't matter what you put in front of them. It's still all new, but a theme that they already know, that's going to make it a lot easier to make connections to gameplay quicker. It just is for whatever reason it does. So me personally, like when I first got into the hobby, knew nothing about pinball.
    123:46
    You know, I went for a game that I thought I would really love the theme. And that was Daddy's Batman.
    123:57
    And I got that game and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Now, looking back on it, I'm like, that game fucking sucked. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have thought. But looking back on it, like, me, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. You grew. You grew as a player. I grew as a player, and I was like, wow, this is really easy. Like, you know, it's just, it's not a game I'm going to find in a tournament. And I'm not saying that makes a good game. But what I'm saying is, like, it just got to a point where I was like, wow, this is getting kind of boring, you know. And but initially, like, I just I loved it because it was Batman. It was a theme. Yeah. I mean, I. Yeah. The first game I got was Stern Avatar and that was just because it was a crazy deal. And then I traded that for Simpsons. Like that was the theme that I was like, oh, I was reading Pinside. You know, I was six months into the hobby or whatever. I was reading. Oh, people love this game. People, it's a great game. It's got crazy depth. And I like Simpsons. Boom. Like I, I get it. Theme sells. We've, we've, we know this. We've preached that. I just know, I mean, I get enough messages, whether it's on Pinside or Facebook or this, like you've streamed this and streamed this. I'm looking at my first game. What do you recommend? This or this? It's like, I just try to look at it through the eyes of the, of a novice of which game is potentially easier to shoot or easier to understand because I want you to get hooked. But it sounds like Travis's answer is which theme do you like more? Well, yeah, because here's why is because one always leads to two, two always becomes four. Right. So in order for somebody to truly it will. And here's why. In order to enjoy the game, you have to connect with it. So if somebody buys a game just squarely off recommended gameplay and they're not a player yet, then you're taking it. It's not saying that won't work, but that person's taking a massive chance that they may not resonate at all with any part of the theme or anything like that. And it's oftentimes you have to already have a skill set built in in order to truly appreciate a game that you may not like the theme at all. Right. In order to just appreciate the gameplay. So King Kong, that's a prime example of a game that a lot of people got to get past the theme because the gameplay is a whole lot of fun. But if somebody can't get past the theme, they're not going to notice that anyway. So I think that that's just kind of where you got to build that up by just playing a theme. And then eventually you start understanding pinball. You start listening to podcasts, watching videos, going to shows, playing on location. And then you start to get a better idea with what you enjoy and with what starts resonating with you. You start making those connections that, oh, this shot kind of feels like this shot or this spinner kind of feels like that spinner. And I really like that. So you start going deeper and deeper. And I think everybody's been there. If you can really think and Tom just did it. But, Joel, if you can really think about one of the first games that you ever owned and then think about the direction that you went after that, Like what you started valuing because you probably evolved in terms of what you like as a player and you felt more confident later on in knowing what you enjoyed gameplay wise. It wasn't just this fog that you didn't quite understand anymore. But it took time to get there. But yeah, I think and plus two is important to if you have a brand new person to pinball, you can always remind them that, hey, you don't have to play three balls. You can set the five ball, ten ball. So even if it's too hard, you can play as if you're playing three games in one anyways. Play longer. Yeah. Just enjoy your theme. Yeah. Put the training wheels on and have fun. Like you paid the money for it. Why not?
    127:54
    These are valid points. I messed up. I should have recommended Jurassic Park. When did you tell him this, Joel? We could recognize this right now. Oh, shit. Well, it was Jurassic Park and then – No, and then – Does he still play Pinball? No, he didn't. No, because he didn't get the drafts. He never ended up buying a game. He still wants to buy a game, but I'm curious at this point.
    128:18
    Yeah. You're wondering if you messed up. He doesn't play anymore. Joe's going to be in lane. No, he didn't.
    128:29
    It was one of those, like, he was redoing his basement, and he's like, I think I want to add a pinball machine. What do you recommend? Call that man tomorrow. Don't be like, I'm going to apologize. I made a mistake. I messed up. It's on me. This is on me. I'll take it. It's on me.
    128:44
    No, and honestly, I mean, honestly, you could have been like, well, you know, maybe the Stern one's too hard. Maybe try looking for a Daddy's one. You know, like. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's plenty of. Yeah, there's a time and place for, I mean, even a Batman fan, you're saying you could still recommend a Daddy's Batman to somebody. Right. Because it's like the cost is right. Get in your house. Try Pinball. And if you find yourself playing it, then you can always sell it and get another one. A new player never feels bad about playing a game in which the theme is nostalgic to them. Exactly. They never feel bad about it. Yeah. They only feel bad about it once they understand what Pinball is. I wonder if Star Wars had one at one point.
    129:29
    Have you guys noticed that? Like if somebody knows what pinball is, then there's a higher chance that their dream theme could let them down because they're looking at it through a different point of view. Sure. At that point. Right. All the all the flashy life. I was kind of scared when I heard, you know, when I knew Rush was coming out, I'm like, am I going to really like it? You know, like what if I hate it? Yeah, you got lucky there.
    129:55
    Most people hate it, though, so I feel I feel great. Well, that's why, you know, we're talking about Dendric Carle Carle here. It's like, well, depending on the designer, the manufacturer, you know, quality, build quality, all this. I don't know. What recent Stern game? I don't want to hurt. Here's a good question. I know we got to wrap it up, but you guys just cued off something. Sure. What recent Stern game in the past 10 years have come out that you think most people would be like, that was my dream theme and I'm just not happy with how it turns out? Venom. Sorry, Hottie. Venom is the one game. I like Venom. I enjoy playing Venom. I think Venom. Venom's the one I've heard. Another one I've heard a lot of is Led Zeppelin for various reasons. I can see that. Yeah, I've heard that one a lot. I think that's squarely just for not having to go in heaven.
    130:47
    That's like the biggest complaint. That's what's hilarious. It's above the actual layout and the rules. I still enjoy it. Yeah, I had it for a little while and I enjoyed it. It was fun. To some extent, Turtles. Turtles is the game that people, you know, they're like, it's too hard. Damn. Yeah, I can see that. I think the top two, I think, would be Venom and Led Zeppelin. So then if we take away Godzilla and Jaws, actually, let's just take away all Elwin pins. What other game by anybody in the past 10 years across any manufacturer do you think if somebody's like, that's my dream theme, that that pin like just nailed it and just crushed it?
    131:33
    Dune. Dune. Dune crushed it. I think Dune crushed it. You're saying take off all Elwin pins. Like anybody else. So if you're you heard it from Joel, if you're a fan, Elton John's good. Elton John crushed Elton John. I was going to say Guns N' Roses when it first came out. It was really, really popular. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. Why is this hard to think of? So, I mean, there's a lot of pinball. There's a lot of pinball. I mean, I think Labyrinth, Really did a really good job. It is hard. It's a harder layout. I mean, that's also Dune. I'm reading some of that. Some people think the layout is hard, but I think they've done the themes very well, both Labyrinth and Dune.
    132:28
    I mean, if somebody's really into Winchester Mystery House, I can probably say that game, but I don't know who's that type of fanboy. So the next question to put you both on the spot. No, like Beetlejuice. And I think Beetlejuice did it really, really well. I think if you're a Texas Chainsaw Massacre, like huge fan, I think you are probably very happy with that game. Yep. All right. Tom, we're going to put Joel on the spot. Somebody's not going to send him a Christmas card this year.
    132:57
    Portal. Portal, they did a really good job. You have two choices. All right. You cannot. Stern is out of the equation. Yeah. If you had to pick one manufacturer outside of Stern to do any dream theme, if somebody came to you and said, Barrels of Fun. Above anybody else, above Spooky, above. 100%. You answer that immediately. Yeah. So why?
    133:24
    Barrels of Fun, if you're saying Stern's off the table, but if you could tell me, hey, take this dream theme, and I go, okay, hey, Carl D'Angelo, can you design the play field? Hey, Jeff, Dirty Pool, can you design the audio package? And then I've really been impressed with the build quality, the max. David's got it figured out. Travis is one of the engineers there. And then Phil Grimaldi and who else? They have Eric Pripke. Eric Pripke's rules, the way that he does modes, like I like Eric Pripke rules on Spooky Games, and now he's doing games at Barrels of Fun. So if I look at that, the only question is art package. And that depends on what the theme is. But they had they don't they don't cheap out on that. They got Johnny Crap did a fantastic job and then they just hired Brad Albright. Right. To do to do Winchester. So it's like I mean, sure, if I can make my dream theme, then get Franchi to do whatever it is. But to me, if you said yes, hey, Joel, my my current dream theme, what I keep saying, Batman, Batman, the animated series. It's like, yes, Batman animated series I want to see. But I threw this out here right now. If you told me I get to decide what the next Barrels of Fun Pinball machine is, I would pick Mad Max Fury Road. Mad Max Fury Road done by Barrels of Fun. That audio package would be insane.
    134:54
    Like, boom, boom, all the time. It would be so great. And then, yes, you give me somebody. I mean, they've proven that they can make fun layouts. And now that Carl's there with his brain, without a doubt. And it's nothing. The second one I would consider would be J.J.P. No, no, you can't. Nope, nope. Oh, I know. You left that body on the side of the road.
    135:18
    The code just gets so complex. Yeah. It gets a little confusing at times. Tom, do you want to answer your question? Or do you want to get all your Christmas cards this year? Yeah, well, I don't want to piss anybody off. I didn't say anybody else is bad. I'm just saying, boom, that's what I want. Oh, you didn't have to. I think it would be a tough choice because, like, if Stern's off the table, I mean, I've seen a lot of good coming out of Jersey Jack and Barrels of Fudge. Rush wants a new pinball machine. They don't want to work with Stern anymore. Jersey Jack turned them down. Who's making that machine? Wasn't that the rumor? I can't confirm nor deny that, but who do you want making that machine?
    136:11
    I mean, you own them all. You have every manufacturer. Valley Williams. No, just kidding. Play Mechanics.
    136:25
    Shit. That's a tough one, isn't it? It's really tough. They just have perfect cons. It's not that there's any one bad. I would say Play Mechanics if I saw maybe their next game. That's the problem. So they did really well with Pulp Fiction.
    136:42
    Yeah, I don't, you know. Yeah, I mean, that game's due out. Josh told us 2032, I think. Dude, what if they got Dungeon Crawler Carl? That would be sick. Oh, boy. That would be sick. I don't want to answer.
    136:59
    Dude, I answered before you finished the barrels of fun. That's too tough of a question. I mean, I'll answer. The Pinball Company?
    137:08
    No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not, yeah, Jetsons 2, Elroy's Revenge is coming out soon.
    137:17
    I think I would have to also say Barrels of Fun. I think I would, just because of all the reasons that Joel pointed out, but I think also, too, So it's like even David, like the passion that he has that he exudes and his whole thing is just making like I always love it when he talks about pinball. He's like, I just want to make cool shit. Like that's like the North Star. And I think if your whole team is thinking that direction, you're going to come up with something interesting and fun. Right. And you're going to take risks that are necessary and it may blow up. It may not work. But you know what? But when it works, yeah, it's probably a lot of fun. I will say I was probably going to go with barrels. And the only reason is, and they probably have, especially the last two games, probably some of the coolest mechs in Pinball right now.
    138:18
    I think they're the full package. That worm in June is just freaking amazing. Like it's it's probably the most amazing Mac I've seen in a long time. Yeah. And I was listening to a podcast and it was it's overpriced. Like it's it it it exceeded their bomb. It exceeded their like when they said this is what it is. And it was David or the business partner. I forget. I think it's Brian. Brian, yeah. Brian, but they were just like, it needs to be there. It was like, well, we can get it to this, this, this, and this, but we could take this part out, and I don't remember which one, and then it would be okay, and they're like, no. And so it's just like, I don't know, to have that mentality of like, this is, if we're going to do it, we're doing it, and we're doing it, like, we know how expensive that's going to be. But even Winchester, the turntable. The turntable. Yeah, that's so cool. Incredible. And it's not, I mean, you know, it's a scoop one minute, it's an orbit one minute, you know, it's just. Yeah. I think Carl's going to do something to top that, too. I'm willing to bet. Nah, he's really done. Yeah, I bet the house. Nah, he's too tired. He's washed, you think? Yeah, he's washed. He spent all that time on all of his ideas. I'm probably going to have to start giving him ideas, you know. He hasn't asked me yet, but I can tell. Oh, he did. Or do you forget? You forget when he lets you know what he thought about that one target.
    139:57
    No, I honestly, I very much believe, and I think what's crazy about Barrels of Fun is they've only been around, what, it's like two years, three years? I mean, they are not. About three years or so, I think. It's not crazy. Like, they've built that level of trust that quickly. Like, I don't own it, but I still think Labyrinth is like a really cool game. It's a great game. It's a cool game. It's just like the movie never resonated with me because I've never seen it. Yeah. But, you know, like I appreciate the game for what it is. Yeah. I just all I need is if I can get like a Christmas vacation pinball machine, I'd be happy. There's a hard sell, though. It doesn't matter. They would have one. They'd sell one. I'd get it. 50 grand. Sandlot. I need Sandlot. Desperate for that one. Like those are two. Those are two. That and Super Mario Brothers. Yeah. Super Mario. But maybe my two dream teams easily are Batman, the animated series and Mad Max Fury Road. My brother will preach Blade Runner all day long. That's what he wants. He wanted a dune, didn't he? He did. And we got it. There's a reason I'm getting it. Yeah. So it's there's a lot. There's a lot going on. Wait, is Jared getting it? No, don't scare. He really loves Jared. Yeah, that's fair. I do. I know. I wish my brother loved me that much. It would be awesome. You're an only child. Yeah, I don't have one.
    141:28
    And your two friends? What about them? Yeah, what about them? I'm glad one of them wished me happy birthday. That was nice of them. All right, we've rambled. Well, Elwin turned this podcast off an hour and 20 minutes ago. Easy. Dude. Easy. Yeah. Okay. If you're still here, guys, leave a like, leave a follow, leave a comment. You want to hear what he had to say? Oh, please. Because we were talking baseball earlier, and I said, we're supposed to be recording a triple drain episode tonight, but both Joel and Tom are having technical issues. Freaking amateurs. Like, that's what I said. Yeah. He replied back, I didn't know that was still a show. That's fair. Well, thank you for everyone. Well, we did it because Ralph. Ralph needed it. Retro Ralph needed it. I need to tuck Mike into bed. Mike, hope you're doing well. Sleep tight, bud. Oh, yeah. Big Mike. Everybody can thank Ralph, though. So be sure and leave a message for Ralph. If you think it's been too long, if you think it's been too long since we've recorded, let Ralph know. Just tell, get, just comment on Ralph's stuff, you know, like whatever. Cool video, tell Triple Drain they need to record. Just tell Ralph. Cool video, where's Triple Drain at? On the YouTube and the Facebook and the emails, tell Ralph and we'll get it. He'll let us know.
    143:00
    So sounds good. All right, let's plug it up. Let's plug it up. Tom, you go first, bud. I'm Tom. You can find me six times a year on this podcast and on Fox News Pinball where I stream a lot of pinball. We got Midwest Gaming Classic coming up. We got the Whopper Chopper in May. And then we have the big one that Travis just got into, which is the IFPA 21 World Championship, which will be held at District 82, which I'll be streaming. Nice. And that's just the first half of the year. You're killing it. You're also the main reason why we can't ever record because you're killing it everywhere all the time. My fans need me. People at the zoo this weekend, he's signing autographs and babies, whatever you want. I'm not sure I'm in there. That's UPSI, I think. So, which is good because I need a break. Check out his stuff on Silver Bowl Swag. You can check out his stuff there, flipping out merches there. OnlyFans. Yeah, all of it. Travis, plug away. Yeah, you guys can find me on my work YouTube, Pinball Company. I do like videos, tutorials, all that. And you guys can also find me here for our podcast every 60 days or so. And here we do it. So, yeah. Maybe we should do a podcast like in three weeks. Yeah, just something crazy. Four weeks. Yeah, maybe there might be a game announced around that time. Let's shoot for May. Let's get one in May. Let's not skip a month again. Let's get one out for the mothers. Okay, yeah, we're going to get one out. And we're either going to talk about IPPA or we're going to talk about a new game coming out. So we'll see. And, yeah, my name is Joel. I do the Flip N Out YouTube stream. I stream every Wednesday night with my brother. So check us out live. Otherwise, you can check out tutorials, other videos there. Or we got this wonderful podcast that we stream or film, whatever, three, four times a year. Thank you for the supporters on Patreon. We really appreciate you guys. I'm sorry you contribute monthly and we don't. But thank you for that. That'll change. And that'll change a little. I'll send a bunch of stuff from this weekend. I'll put it all up. That'll be great. We're going to get on it. We'll do better, guys. We'll do better.
    145:22
    I'm doing great. Why are you putting we in here? If you go on the Patreon. I'll do better. I'll do better, guys. It's me. I did do the snowstorm. He's a weather report.
    145:38
    I like open my drawer and there's like snow piled up. It was awesome. It is awesome. I didn't have to go to work. It's great.
    145:53
    I just played pinball all day. It was awesome. I got to go to work tomorrow. I do. Anyways. I gotta go with work. Goodbye everybody. Like always, Tom, did you get the last words? Let's get that Wrestlemania new wrestling pin up. It's a bunch of fun.
    146:10
    Cut me off!