Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 60 - We’ll be nice

The Pinball Network·video·1h 12m·analyzed·Feb 23, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Triple Drain Ep60: Evil Dead impressions and D&D deep-dive with Pro/Premium comparison.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast Episode 60 features hosts Joel and Travis discussing recent pinball experiences, particularly Pinball at the Beach event in Florida and hands-on impressions of Spooky's Evil Dead and Stern's Dungeons & Dragons machines. The episode includes technical difficulties, banter about a photo mishap, and detailed mechanical/design comparisons between D&D Pro/Premium tiers and Evil Dead's ambitious feature set.

Key Claims

D&D LE units are selling very well; 'LEs are just flying off the shelf'
high confidence · Travis describes sales velocity in his position, noting unexpected strong performance given his initial uncertainty about theme reception
D&D voice call-outs were a major factor in driving sales, following Foo Fighters complaints about missing call-outs
medium confidence · Travis speculates about Stern's intentional response to prior feedback; no direct manufacturer confirmation
Evil Dead is a widebody cabinet with non-widebody-standard geometry, featuring a two-shooter lane (double barrel)
medium confidence · Travis describes playing experience at Pinball at the Beach; describes confusing geometry
Evil Dead features a flipper sling mech that is passive (doesn't activate on ball contact) and requires separate button activation
medium confidence · Travis explains mechanics discovered during gameplay at the event
D&D's dungeon scoop pop-out is more mechanically satisfying and skill-dependent than the Pro-exclusive dragon movement
medium confidence · Joel provides detailed opinion based on Media Day experience and gameplay
D&D's gelatinous cube magnet mechanic enables consistent upper flipper setup feeding via FSMO scoop shot
medium confidence · Joel explains detailed rule interaction from play experience
Spooky's Christopher Franchi did the art for Evil Dead and 'killed it' on the design
high confidence · Joel directly attributes art to Franchi, calls out quality positively
D&D features recognizable voice talent including Matt Mercer (Critical Role DM), Kevin Smith, and Gerard Wade
high confidence · Joel confirms specific names and notes their prominence in D&D fandom communities

Notable Quotes

“I think that is helping push that out there with that type of voice cast... I truly do think that when it was released, the voice call-outs—out of all the things—really helped push this pin.”
Travis @ ~23:00 — Directly attributes D&D's strong sales to voice quality, suggesting intentional Stern response to Foo Fighters feedback
“I didn't know where this theme was going to land... all I knew was 'Big dragon mech is most likely on it, D&D.' Let's kind of see what happens, right?”
Travis @ ~21:30 — Reveals uncertainty about D&D's market reception prior to release despite strong subsequent sales
“If you love mechs—if that's your jam—you will find mech galore. Mech all over.”
Travis @ ~11:00 — Early assessment of Evil Dead's mechanical density and complexity
“The underrated mech in my opinion is actually the dungeon scoop popping out of the playfield... It's not a gimme. It can be a challenging shot.”
Joel @ ~32:00 — Identifies overlooked mechanical strength in D&D Pro version that differentiates from Premium
“I have a hard time picking up the ball in time for the upper flipper shot... that cube is so big. It covers it up.”
Joel @ ~38:00 — Identifies potential visibility/ergonomics issue with D&D's gelatinous cube magnet placement
“This is the best Brian Eddy layout that he's done at Stern... I like it better than Stranger Things.”
Travis @ ~48:30 — Ranks D&D layout above other designer's recent Stern work, indicating strong design approval
“There's a lot of D&D fans out there... Critical Role is very popular... people are really into following these storylines and they get attached to the characters.”
Joel @ ~24:00 — Explains untapped D&D fandom market that Stern successfully targeted with licensing/voice talent
“When I first stepped up and played it, it felt a little weird... some of this geometry didn't feel like widebody geometry.”

Entities

Triple Drain Pinball PodcastorganizationTravispersonJoelpersonTomperson Pinball at the Beachevent Evil Deadgame Dungeons & Dragonsgame

Signals

?
community_signal: Spooky Pinball actively promoting Evil Dead through social media featuring industry professionals at play, building visibility and authority
high · Spooky posted photo to Facebook with caption 'cool to see some industry professionals play our game' featuring Brian Eddy, Eric Meunier, and other named players
~
sentiment_shift: D&D showing unexpectedly strong sales velocity with LE units 'flying off the shelf,' suggesting successful market positioning despite host's initial theme uncertainty
high · Travis reports direct sales data: 'LEs are just flying off the shelf' and describes surprise at theme resonance given prior unfamiliarity
?
community_signal: Triple Drain Podcast using Patreon funds for tournament sponsorships and technical infrastructure rather than personal enrichment, indicating community-focused model
high · Host explains Patreon revenue allocation: 'we've sponsored some tournaments with it, we've paid for Zencastr and other stuff' and hosts purchasing equipment (blankets for audio improvement)
?
competitive_signal: D&D's upper flipper reliability and consistent setup feeding (via FSMO/magnet interaction) represents favorable mechanical implementation improving shot accessibility versus other upper flipper games
medium · Joel: 'there's something about hitting a shot consistently and cleanly with an upper flipper... so much more satisfying' and details three separate reliable methods to feed upper flipper shots
?
design_philosophy: Brian Eddy's D&D layout receiving strong praise as his best Stern work, ranking above Stranger Things in host opinion despite both featuring three-flipper design

Topics

Spooky Evil Dead machine design and mechanicsprimaryStern D&D Pro vs Premium tier comparison and featuresprimaryPinball at the Beach event and experienceprimaryD&D voice talent and fandom appealsecondaryBrian Eddy layout design philosophy and three-flipper machinessecondaryPinball mechanical design trends and mech utilizationsecondaryStern response to prior feedback (Foo Fighters call-outs issue)secondaryFlip for the Cure charity tournamentmentioned

Sentiment

positive(0.78)— Hosts express strong approval for both Evil Dead and D&D designs; enthusiastic about mechanical complexity and voice talent; positive toward Pinball at the Beach event despite logistical issues; friendly banter and chemistry despite technical difficulties. Minor criticism regarding D&D cube visibility and ball tracking challenges, but framed as honest feedback rather than condemnation.

Transcript

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[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast all right we are back we're back it's been it's been a long time it's been a long time but we're here um and today's going to be a little different today's going to be a little different and you can probably anybody that's on YouTube can already see why it's different um it's because we're down a man we're down a man it's you're just stuck with me and Travis so Travis you uh what you're pointing oh he turned his lights on behind my lights fell down do you see that yeah tell Monica to step up her step up her game she's out of the country right now well it's not getting fixed anytime soon yeah oh man trying to do a technology can't see it now you can't see it now it's fine it's covered up um we are unfortunately down a man and that's because Tom is is a busy man Tom's a busy man he had like we were trying to record and we're like we could do this this or this and he's like well that week I have a dentist thing that week I'm traveling to this that week I'm traveling to that all pinball all this I mean when you're that awesome you you're going to be pulled in that many different directions so um we tried to get a third wheel we tried to get a third wheel and unfortunately the Third Wheel we we we had lined up got sick so it's just Travis and I and um Did You Know Travis this is episode 60 60 60 it's a lot yeah I'm still and I'm still having issues even at episode 60 like do you see the Red Dot right here can you see that I DOD I accidentally hit record on my camera so he's recording now so his camera's probably G to fill up and then my lights are falling apart here just yeah this is a very professional stream just roll the song well no I'm not I'm not gonna roll the song I'm Not GNA roll a song okay okay well I'm listening I'm going to turn off this recording go ahead keep going he's going to turn off we're about to shut down the whole thing I'm not going to do the song because we're not three guys we're two guys and normally I would I would label this as 59.5 you know it's a half an but I'll tell you right now you don't have to be a marketer to know 0 five episodes don't get don't get H so I'm sorry Tom that you're not here for for episode 60 but we'll celebrate next one um I do want to also call out before I forget this shirt right here this is uh flip for the flip for the Cure this is a an annual Char charity tournament um that's hosted so this year it's uh March 8th March 8th in Toledo Ohio it's for epilepsy um and yeah I think the guy's name is Jason he had reached out to us and was like hey what's your address I want to send you some shirts so um it's an awesome shirt my kids actually love it because there's a cat there's a cat on a on a my son's already stole my shirt so that's why I don't have it anymore but it's awesome though so if you happen to be near or or if you're near Toledo March 8th flip for the Cure please participate in that tournament uh or if epilepsy is something that's that's close to you guys and you want to travel and enjoy that tournament please do otherwise I'm pretty sure there's merch or or some other way you could support um overall but um yeah I thought that was a cool cause it was awesome to get a shirt from it and I just obviously we would love to uh support and encourage that tournament um speaking of support this is the one thing I just our patreon people thank you we finally we finally took the money that we've made on patreon and we divided it through ways and so uh Travis bought blankets he bought blankets for his basement so hopefully the audio quality I haven't spin it yet I'm going to Vegas I'm putting it all in red maybe you should buy some more tape for your lights in the back or I probably should yes and Tom I don't know what Tom's doing but um it's a struggle go ahead keep telling the viewers thank you real quick overall thank you thank you for all the support in this um honestly what we've been using the money for so far we've we've uh sponsored some tournaments with it we've paid for Zen caster and other stuff so other expenses but um I know the guys heckled me enough last time thinking that I was holding on to all all the support funds that we had so I went ahead and divided that three ways and we should all be good maybe maybe Travis will buy another backwards hat or some sweatpants or something to something oh you can see my sweatpants too yeah I'm actually working here I'm taking my lunch break to do this okay well enough of this um we only have roughly an hour we only have roughly an hour to record um it's just going to be the two of us so I Travis I'll do this I I I think I will I will be nice I'll be nice to you without Tom without Tom here to uh to to to to be the mediator or you know to to calm the storm write the ship all that I'm gonna be nice I'm not if you mispronounce something I'm just going to let it slide you know if you just if I will just I'm gonna be nice I'm gonna be nice to you I don't believe you at all I don't believe this we'll see what happens I'm not falling for this so our pre-recording meeting was pretty short and sweet um basically we'll start with Evil Dead just because I can't really contribute to the conversation yet um I Know Travis went to pinball at the beach so maybe you can mention that pinball at the beach new show down in Florida everything that I saw from afar it looked awesome it looked awesome it looked real relaxed warm everything um but it was a really cool opportunity for a lot of people to play some of the newer stuff and you did you actually played Evil Dead so if you want to you know overall thoughts on pinball at the beach and then just your quick you know initial thoughts of playing Evil Dead that would be great okay I can do that am I doing that now are we are we literally not doing any intro are we not doing an intro at all what intro no I'm not doing a song there's not three of us there's two of us oh okay you're being serious all right we have an hour we have an hour you know what's hilarious in this production meeting right there was nothing mentioned like Hey we're going to talk about pinball at the beach like this is just throwing on me for the for the viewers man okay okay I got you I got you I got you covered boo let's do this perfect y it was fun oh great yeah no it's okay yo like if you're listening to this and you went to pinball at the beach obviously you know it was a good time so if you don't know what pinball at the beach was it was just the newest pinball show that was located I think in St Petersburg Florida I'm pretty sure that's where we were at but anyways we were on the coast so there was an actual Beach there an actual ocean there there was a bar right there there was plenty of drinks to go around plenty of pinball to go around and it was just it was a good time and I think it was limited to maybe like a thousand people that there any time so there was a tent at the resort at this uh Resort we were at and I mean it was just cool that's that's all I really know to say lots of pinball people there lots of friends there lots of drinks to go around and lots of uh lots of games to be played but we did have issues though Joel okay eating at the restaurant there okay and anybody listening to this knows what's going on somehow the fire alarm kept going off every single night like clockwork the fire alarm would go off and sure as [ __ ] every single time I sat down at this restaurant to eat the fire alarm would go off and we could not get our food we would cigar no were you the cause it was no it wasn't even us oh it wasn't even us and yeah so we always had to like get up and leave it took us I think three times the third time we went there cuz we're Psychopaths we just kept trying to go there to eat we finally got our food so we finally figured it out it just took a little while but overall show was cool um speaking of which like you mentioned Evil Dead it was there and you know playing it it's I'll be honest with you when I first stepped up and played it it felt it felt a little weird and here's here's why it's not because it shot bad not because like the flippers just felt like they were soggy or anything like that I think it just felt strange to me because it was a widebody right but some of this geometry didn't feel like widebody geometry so I had had to wrap my brain around that where it isn't it a w it's in a wide body cabinet but isn't it more like a standard body because there's two shooter Lanes Right double barrel if it is that's the way it felt and so that could have been it like it was just freezing up my brain and I was just trying to just sort my [ __ ] out basically whenever I was playing it but overall I mean I thought it felt like one of the most ambitious spookies that's been done you know and it it was pretty cool like I enjoy Evil Dead for what it is I've watched all the movies it's been a long time ago but I remember watching all the movies so it definitely felt like when you press Start you're in the Evil Dead Universe like it doesn't feel like anything skipped out in this machine it if you love mechs if that's your jam you will find Mech Galore Mech all over oh all over all over what um the biggest question mark for me Mech wise is um The Flipper sling is that cool is it weird when the ball hit hits it and you expect the sling to go off and it just does is that how well what's your thought on that well I played enough pinball to run into passive slings so that wasn't really that big of a deal it did take me a few to get used to using a separate button for that little mini fli right there yeah you had to get your mind around that but I did also find some of the modes I played I wasn't really using it all that much so I was bypassing it mostly however I did get a chance of course the pictures are floating out there anyway so but I played a few games with at the same time on it and he got into some mode to where love to make a comment on that picture if I I but I did I did say oh that's a okay that's a size one let meend I was going to be nice about that picture let me defend myself here we're going to go we're going to we're we're going to go if you want to talk about the picture I'll talk about the picture oh you're the one that brought it up you're the one you're bringing it up right now I was talking about for people everybody we are 10 minutes into it Joel said I'm not going to say anything I haven't said I haven't been mean yet I'm saying go to go to Spooky's Facebook page and scroll down and you'll say hey it's cool to see there was a post that says it's cool to see some industry professionals play our game and there was a picture of Brian Eddy playing it there was a picture of uh Eric Minor playing it and then there's a picture of Travis and Keith playing it and I can stop there Travis if you want me to stop that's fine I can stop there but Travis is in the pink shirt say okay we're going to say two things here one I will accept the only reason why I'm even in that picture is because Keith was next to me yes right they took the picture because of Keith yes but at least okay but you got to admit though the picture with Carrie Hardy with the uh with the plaque next to like all the other industry people yeah it's like it reminded me of the Big Bird meme next to like Darth Vader like going into the tournament so that's like that's where we're at with this second off that camera's playing tricks let me tell you like cuz there's two reasons here all right first off we're not going to talk about Evil Dead f it everybody strap in grab a beer grab a coffee whatever you're doing right now okay we can all accept if you've seen Keith his calves are obviously like mutant calves is insane so big he's got the biggest calves it's like five Christmas hams packed together in a stocking and they just yeah and so one he's closer to the camera right I'm not a you've been around me Joel I'm not a small person no but I've never seen you in shorts Travis I've never seen you I squat over 400 lb it must be all thigh then cuz it's not coming from your CS bro that's what it looks like that's why as soon as as soon as I saw it and Monica saw it she's like what is going on here and I'm like I don't know AI like just like did some [ __ ] to my legs or something but yeah it is just look at the picture guys I'm not going to say anything I'm not say about it I look like I'm a little kid like like next to his papa and he's just like overlooking my shoulder like you should hit that one son oh boy yeah see well when you guys first sent me the picture I thought [ __ ] they're going to give me [ __ ] about my pink Hawaiian shirt but no no you know I like colorful fun shirts I have zero problems with the shirt you know what the lower half that I think you would that they should drop that photo no here's the no I will own it leave it up there that's like just perspective I don't care here's what cracks me up about that photo Joel yeah yeah when I first saw that I wasn't even thinking CS right cuz I've never once heard anybody in my life say oh you have small calves like I've never heard it of course i' never been next to like five tier Christmas ham keep El next to me with his calves so yeah it's perspective there right he has a killer beard killer calfs what can I do F me so so basically what I'm getting at here is that when I zoomed in and I looked you had to zoom in yeah well here's the thing because I didn't even I didn't even think of the Cales I was thinking I had my beach shoes on and I wasn't wearing my socks and and my tan is just like out of this world I mean my ankles and my feet are wider than this like I didn't notice the tan line see that's what I mean nobody noticed what I was like oh God people are going to see that but yeah so evil dead great great excellent job guys excellent job oh man I saw that picture and I just I was like oh so good who took that pick was it bug or was it Luke who do I they did you wrong bro they did you wrong they wait for like this shot like a perspective shot so you can actually see the whole thing yeah you have better camera angles that's I look like I have Kevin Durant CF in that picture it is nuts they're there man it wasn't fair it wasn't fair get it I'm I'm going to disappear I'm doing nothing but calf raises for the rest of the year like screw the beard I'm done with it good luck man good luck don't it's yeah I just I laugh too hard and oh my heart but hey I didn't I was you know your body man it's be proud of it your body be proud of it be proud of just uh you're beautiful boy I don't what am I supposed I'm not supposed to be mean right I'm gonna be nice I don't I try to be the good-look one on this podcast but obviously people are just trying to tear better shot with you have a better shot with Tom not on you know he definitely top two today that's true that is true all right so appreciate you being here umad you loved it right 10% of this podcast spin on my calf muscles thank God just this is great pinball content yeah so uh Evil Dead yeah so there it has modes it has evil dead it has Mech it has all that but what I was getting at is the only time that I can recall using the upper flipper a lot is when Keith got into some mode with the uh with the hand going back and forth yeah right and then he would shoot the ball in there you could also stage right there when it comes back in the wire form well with the upper flipper you could leave the flipper up and stops above it and then you just kind of wait and go pick your shot whatever you're doing I didn't see it go up the left ramp but I know I saw it go up the left orbit a couple of times I remember uh bug had made a comment because the that flipper does something similar to like the The Flipper lock that um that uh flip lock that's in Jaws I remember it is but but the ball's on top The Flipper instead of here it's on top so that makes it that makes it interesting well what was funny was bug said like that was already designed like it was already designed it was already in the game and then Jaws comes out and he SE flip blog he's like like just kind of like but hey it's um I love it I love we had a similar situation with uh what was it was Avengers came out with the with the with the spinning disc the portal disc and then it was like two months later um two months later got uh wow what's the Guns and Roses came out the spinning disc with the hat and then fast forward to uh um Foo Fighters where they had in the inlanes they had the The Targets in the inlanes and there was like two months later uh Godfather comes out with a Target in the in Lane so it's just it happens it happens I mean people make weird comparisons too all the time it's like we've heard D and D or dungeons of dragons is like Labyrinth because it has an upper flipper and a loop shot or there's nothing about DND d That's well hey that's a decent transition take it now unless you have more you want to say about no I'm good I'm good I mean evil Dead's evil Dead's cool congrats to the spooky people I mean we'll elaborate more on it once you get a chance to play I'm go there I think so Zach's on vacation this week I think he's getting if not maybe he's already received his Evil Dead I think he's probably still in a box so hopefully I mean maybe as early as next week um if not the week after uh I'll have a chance to have an evil dead here and stream it uh it's going to be an interesting game to stream because that'll be probably the first game that I'm going to have to like cover up when I'm not streaming it so my children don't see it um which is a shame because the art is beautiful franie definitely killed it on that but okay so D and D we have both you and I have both played a lot of D and D um I have played the Le exclusively you had um a very short period on the nle and then you've had a lot more time on the pro so four games on the Le yeah yeah you sure have are you how well we'll start with that I mean because I've had multiple people reach out you know um I'm in on a pro but after watching video maybe I should update to the premium or you know vice versa so overall thought comparison between Pro and premium I mean I if it's my preference with what I'm playing I'm going with the pro I think it's just fine enough right there I don't mind it but I think if you if you do love the dragon Mech and you want to see it do more than just go up and down if you want to see it go left to right then yeah by all means the premium and Le will definitely be your Jam of course you know if you want powder coating you want all that mirror glass all the bells and whistles oh yeah of course and I mean I can I can report like straight up just because of the way our sales are gone I mean the game's doing excellent good you know like L's are just flying off the shelf and I mean people are responding to it to it well and I honestly I mean you and I talked about this off podcast I didn't know where this theme was going to land like I had no idea because I wasn't familiar with the theme it's very rare I typically have a pretty good fi with the velocity of sell that's going to come with machine this one I had no idea where it was because all I knew was big dragon Mech is most likely on it D and D let's kind of see what happens right that could be any like that could mean anything you just don't know until you see the the design the artwork the direction and I I truly do think that when it was released the voice call outs out of all the things really helped push this pin for like I really do because if we if we remember Foo Fighters online what was the number one thing people were complaining about it was the call outs yeah like oddly enough like where's the call outs where's this where's that and of course I never thought there was an issue with that but with this it's like it's almost like people at Stern said if you want call outs here it is we're going to chunk it all at you right now so I think that is helping a little bit as well pushing that out there with that type of voice cast yeah and I've definitely experienced just with people that have reached out to to me and whatnot or showed up in stream there's there's a lot of D and fans out there that that you know I played D and D for three years and it was just a fun thing that I did with with uh a few friends and family members um and I loved it but it was just I just enjoyed it because it was a fun social fun thing but I've learned I mean there are D and D fans that are not only do they play and maybe multiple times a week but then they also they're DND um critical role is very popular but there's others like it of these essentially shows that are whether it's streamed weekly or um youtubed weekly where there are people that are really into following these storylines and and and they get attached to the characters that they that that are being portrayed and the voice actors so I don't know who was particularly negotiating the license or working with the license but I feel like this may have been one of those situations where you know Kevin Smith is in it like hey do you have any interest in and they hear like D and D they're like I'm in and I think there's some some of these voice actors that that are super passionate about this theme and it shows I I think the Voice work in the game is fantastic and they got recognizable names Matt Mercer being the main one which is he's he's the dungeon master of critical role um but Kevin Smith is huge Gerard Wade is huge I mean some huge names um so for the DN the the the Avid DND D fans and boy they gave they did you fan service they got a DND dmagic artist they got all the voice actors names that you'll recognize um um and it just it it really truly feels and looks DND uh for non- DND people though it you see the dragon Mech is huge that's the thing the dragon Mech you saw it at media day as well the dragon Mech is way bigger than than what the pictures show you and so uh it really brings you in with that immersion um the one comment I will make about Pro verse premium though is um when I was at media day I I was super impressed by the pro I was like honestly you know the the spinning the balls out at you is cool but that multiball so chaotic that having the balls shoot around the orbit felt very similar and so part of me was like I hope there's other instances in the game where the dragon spits out the balls to be to give you something besides that one multiball as of right now there isn't um the but to me though the mech the underrated Mech in my opinion is actually the dungeon scoop popping out of the Playfield and the reason I say that really I've really grown to enjoy it and the reason I say that is because it's not a gimme it's a it can be a challenging shot and the way they Implement that shot um there are certain modes like that the tines dice us utilizes it but when when you're doing a dungeon a town dungeon so once you complete all the modes in in a town you have a chance to do the dungeon which is kind of a little mini wizard mode those dungeons have levels so to get down to the next level the scoop pops up and so and it's not a it's a it's a tough shot so it's like a reward where it's like douch you hit the you hit the the scoop and you're like yes okay next phase and it gives you that second to breathe and that's so satisfying hitting that scoop when you need to to reward you to the next level and the way you do that on the pro is you just hit the the center spinner shot which the center spinner shot's the easiest shot in the game so it's like you take a moment and you make it rewarding versus just like yeah you just hit the you just hit the center SP shot again so I do think I think it's an underrated Mech I think it's it's utilized well and um honestly if I went from a premium to a pro I that would be the thing that I'd miss in my opinion I I don't think I'd miss the dragon movement as much but I do think I would miss the dungeon scoop the dungeon scoop has been pretty cool see it's kind of curious because after playing it for a few the the mech I'm most impressed with is actually a cube like that thing that thing is pretty cool yeah the way the magnets work I think it's so I I got to put a caveat on this because it can't like it's it's a fun game don't get me wrong but I want to be transparent and be honest with people if you haven't got a chance to play it yet one of the things that I've had a tough time with is any ball that's coming around that right orbit at least from my vantage point I have a hard time picking up the ball in time for you know for the upper flipper shot yeah it's yeah because that that cube is so big it covers it up it's hard for me and I'm roughly 61 you're like an ogre it's like eight and a half feet tall so I imagine you have a difficult time no you can't see it it's yeah yeah it's tough so but the mech itself though in terms of what it does it's interesting because you can you know you can hit the left orbit that turns into a left ramp you can hit it through that gelatinous Cube it works its way around from the left ramp to the right side and then it catches on that magnet which that part's pretty cool like I mean it's just you know that's a basic pinball thing right the magnet catches what's really cool is is what happens afterwards to where you have options to where you can either start that two Ball multiball by hitting it back up the ramp again or you can lock it on the magnet down below which I think it's actually it's the same magnet right magnet I foret yeah so you can lock it down below it on the right orbit but you got to hit the right orbit shot to do that and then what's really interesting is I think it's I'm pretty sure I'm getting this right if you hit the right orbit again that just gives you a three ball multiball whereas if you hit the left ramp again and you knock the ball off the top magnet you get a four ball multiball correct so that right there is kind of cool like I like the idea of utilizing a Mech or some type of magnet whatever you want call it to be able to create these different stages of just risk reward trying to get as much as many points or as many balls as possible into play as you want to do so that in itself is I mean I find that far more fascinating than anything else in the game I've actually had a good time doing that but the funny enough is I don't really do it that often when I'm actually playing through the game but when it does happen I mean it's it's a pretty cool moment well with that and you're the other thing though is it's is that magnet is a setup shot and and what I mean by that is um if you hit the farle scoop um fsmo shop it will then eject the shot up past that flipper and the magnet is supposed to grab it is it 100% no but it's it's it's a very consistent thing where it'll grab the ball and then that it's basically you're feeding that upper flipper in a very consistent way and so because of that there's two upper flipper shots in a Target the the um the left ramp is an upper flipper shot there's an inner loop which is an upper flipper shot and then there's a dungeon Target but you can also with that thing on a premium or you can hit the scoop the the dungeon scoop if it pops up and you can hit the cap ball which is the critical hit Target so there's a lot you can do with that upper flipper and the fact that you can stage that upper flipper in a consistent reputable way really there are some pinball machines where the upper flipper shots are really hard and you're rewarded for it when you hit it but um but on this game it's just another shot like I I have zero complaints when the enemy is on an upper flipper shot because I know I can set it up in a in a reliable way so I can hit it and that I love that it's there's something about hitting a like consistently and cleanly with an upper flipper it it's it's so much more satisfying so the left ramp from the upper flipper shot is is a very enjoyable shot so I I that was just one of those things until you play it that magnet really doesn't they've utilized that magnet so well with the layout I think doesn't the magnet catch too if you hit the a shortcut 180 shot that's sometimes that's in between the spinner and the right ramp I'm pretty sure and you can backhand that so the shortcut shot which is kind of like a horseshoe basically you can backhand that from the right ramp so it's one of those things where if an upper flipper shots lit you have the ability it's like well do I want to hit fsmo shot to to do it do I want to try to backhand it to hit uh the shortcut to feed it or do I want to be crazy and hit the left orbit with with full speed to hit it but you have three easy ways to get that ball in play and um comparing that to a lot of other games with an upper flipper shot where you may only have one way to get the ball in play uh it's awesome and uh I had and this is a good question for you Travis I had a buddy shout out Derek he asked me the question he said do you like DN or Shadow more because they're both Brian Eddy games they both are his only three flipper layouts so which one from a layout standpoint and and even if you want to bring in toys and mechs which game do you like more Shadow or DND I mean honestly I'd probably say shadow just because of the way that the ramps are the furbos and all that awesome yeah controlling that going back and forth the upper Playfield is actually a fun upper Playfield to play because it's not necessarily your classic used flippers right or anything like that I like doing loops on it so I mean I'd probably have to go with Shadow but that's not to say oh D and D like isn't fun like to me yeah to me this is the best Brian Eddy layout that he's done at Stern that's far like I like yeah I like it better than stranger things I own a stranger things for a while I like it better than than Venom you know and then Mandalorian had Mandalorian for a while so I think that this one for sure it's just it's one of those things that when you get a layout that's more Dynamic than anything that it has three flippers or more than three as long as it doesn't feel convoluted to the point that it's just like you can't get anything done in the game right this feels like you can get through the game with the way the layout is so I think that's where a lot of people are going to they're going to get attached to that or they're going they're going to have more fun with it because of that so I completely agree and there are plenty of games that I've played with a third flipper that um you know that third flipper may have one shot you know it's like all that you know they put in that entire Mech and then mess with that whole geometry to give you one shot with that upper flipper and sometime you know if it's a Stern sometimes that upper flipper is a a standup Target you know Zeppelin yeah so um but yeah I just think uh I really have enjoyed the layout and to me the the the shadow vers D andd question uh it's hard to be I I love the metal Snappy ramps that you get with the furba in Shadow I I I would love that type of diverter in a modern game because the speed at which you can switch things around is is so cool yeah but um I I I would easily say I think I would put Shadow and d and d as the as Brian Eddy's top two Des designs in my opinion when it comes to the layout yeah Shadow just plays fast like if you really want that PIN to play fast that can play fast and you don't want this game to play fast and right D and D is not a fast playing game in my opinion it's not now you can turn it into that if you're going to be Savage and just go after the dragon the entire time yeah you can you can make it play all kinds of crazy then let's also talk about the shield CU one thing that I didn't really really you start to utilize with the shield until um it was here um is not only is The Shield great for protection but the way it's designed you can use it to set up two other shots rather reliably you're supposed to be able to say yeah I I will give the major caveat because I played on a couple location games it's very setup dependent yeah and you might find like you'll have to change some stuff around maybe it it just depends because you might you might be able to hit the right ramp like I played on one to where it could not hit the right ramp no matter what but it would hit the left orbit clean that's where I am yeah and then I've seen the opposite where the right ramp is clean left orbit is not it's hitting off the standup targets instead so that's where my the game that I have the way it's set up so what we're saying is you pop the shield up and then you let the ball just rest yes you hit the action button The Shield pops up and you let the ball just rest and it's going to rest either because of the way it's shaped either on the left side or the right side so if it's resting on the right side you can just let the ball sit there and then when you flip with the right flipper it on mine it hits the left orbit every time guaranteed and then if it's sitting on the left side of the shield and you flip with the left flipper it might hit the upper right ramp and what's weird is there was a period of time there was two or three days where mine would do it rather consistently it would hit the upper right ramp which is to me the hardest shot in the game that's the hardest shot for me to hit so there were modes where it's like that's the shot I need it it would be like I almost want to build up Shield not to protect myself just for the layup the t-ball shot to hit that ramp um and I just that's awesome like what a unique physical feature to Aid in that and I I I neither of us really you realized that or or tried to start building that into our game plan when we're at the media day and I'm curious from a tournament standpoint if people you know depending on how the game set up if people might utilize The Shield to hit shots versus protect you know for safety I don't I don't know yeah I mean I have lots of thoughts on that but you know I don't know how how much time do we have to discuss that you know what I mean true true I think it's it's just it's very early to consider this game for tournaments and I mean it's obviously Stern's GNA have their launch parties either way so whether we like it or not this pin's going to get dragged into tournaments Kicking and Screaming whether it's ready or not so it'll be interesting to see it'll be interesting to see I'm trying to figure out I have the launch party video ready to go Joel I kind of want to give you these yeah I want to give you these strategies so you could try it because I think I can get you over 800 million I'm pretty sure 500 mill actually it's Joel I can get you over 350 million Joel I can already get over 300 I think my high score is like 400 something oh yeah we'll get over that easily well but honestly though I have not I haven't prioritized a a shot for points at all like this game because you're not playing in tournaments or you know launch party yeah it's it goes both ways games there's other games though where it's like I don't know most of the time in my head if you can crack a billion on a Stern you've done something so there are sometimes where I turn that on and I'm like okay I got a Super Jackpot shot or I have this or I have that I just haven't even thought about the word jackpot or right Playfield multiplier like this game yeah the way my brain and maybe we will just transition into this but yeah we can talk about this game I had Elizabeth geki on stream the other day and she made a comment of like it really took she's a tournament player very skilled tournament player um obviously geki was involved in Jaws she's been involved in some other games she she wrote almost every mode in D and D and she said when she first got in it she really had to change her mindset on on this game because it's very clear this is a passion project for Dwight um that the goal of this game is an epic journey to to have very fun story-based character experience level up Journey that you're going to work through um whether using pin pin save over time or just how far are you going to get in this journey in one game and honestly I think points tournament play they put that on the back burner that's on the it's in the game it's pinball we understand it but the goal of this game is the journey and um for me that's how I like playing pinball so for me I'm loving every second of it um for a player like you I know this is a foreign language this is like how do I how do I do this how do I have fun yes yes and no yes and no it's so it's one of those interesting things it when you look at and I'm sure there's several people that listen to this podcast that have played like at Stern pro circuit events one them played in World Championships like the reality is is that if you are if you consider yourself above average player you know you can put up a billion points on a Stern whatever and you have a game at home there's two ways that you really approach it you're either going for score or you're going for a wizard mode and often times depending on just how the software is and how the rules are you may not have to worry about score when going for a wizard mode it's more about progression anyways y like completing something starting something doing something like that so I mean I think if you're looking at this and you're realizing okay wait they're prioritizing a story over points I don't want that to to dissuade the players that do focus on points and do play tournaments from not at least trying out this pen like there's still you could still min max your way to a billion two three billion points on this game there's always a path and it's just that path becomes even more apparent because the focus is more on story than points if your focus isn't on points obviously there's going to be a lot more imbalances up front that's going to be able to be exploited that's I mean that's just what it is right it's just that's just what happens but from a narrative perspective if you're looking towards just progression getting through it then yeah this pen does cover that right because there are rules there are modes up front to go through the towns and keep trying to get to the end and I think what is it they have one part of it so far that's done that you can get so I think it's that because I saw this character for the first time yesterday somebody whipped yes somebody whipped out that character on me when I was like hey let's play a game of D and D on location they're just like let me log in I'm like what is this character I haven't seen them yet yeah so I mean yeah obviously people are getting through it and people are trying out different things and I think that this is the type of game that because there's so many call outs and because it's story based progression it lends itself to a lot more updates in the future that focuses that focuses on expansion right not not so much trying to fix like that a mode just needs to play different right you I mean there's always bugs and stuff like that but you get what I'm saying they're not going to have to like change around entire modes just to fit something to make somebody happy it's more about expanding the universe is what it becomes so they um just a brief overview um there's there's six well there's seven towns in the game but the center Town doesn't doesn't have any unique modes they have hry up stuff darkle yeah but the other six towns only four of them are unlocked at the beginning and um the bottom two towns only have one mode the middle Two Towns Westgate and arabel or the bottom two and then you got green yeah greenest and then cobal town or the those are the middle two and both of those have three modes each and then the top two are Dragon Nest Dragon spear and uh I have GA G good luck saying that gaunt Grim GA gri y what's really cool though is so the first the the bottom four cities are the only ones unlocked at the beginning and um so the idea is to play the dungeon within that City you have to be at all the modes so if you play either the bottom two they only have one mode so you one mode you beat it or lose doesn't matter you beat it or lose you're not going to lose because the way the game works is if you drain you know if you start a mode and you drain in ball two you're still in that mode in ball three you're still in that mode if you drain in ball three I mean the game's over now if you're using pin save and you log back in you can start that mode again you can start so it's hard to it's hard to fail a mode um now once you beat all the modes you can play a dungeon dungeon's a different story dungeon you can absolutely fail a dungeon and the way that you fail a dungeon in this game is you you lose your health you you you you pass out you're knocked out so every character your entire party has hit points and it's basically time and so while you're playing the modes and you're being attacked um you will lose hit points and so if you play it long enough you can you can get kicked out of the dungeon because you died um now you didn't drain you just you took too long and so if you get kicked out of a dungeon you can you can lose the dungeon and you can't go back in um that's kind of unique that's kind of unique um now if you drain out of it and you're using pin save and you you come back you can get back into the dungeon but um weird it's a weird it's a it's a fun way to play though because at least the way my brain works the top two cities have the level three modes so you have to complete the level one and two of those to get to those cities to play those modes so those modes are harder and those dungeons are harder um and those dungeons are ones that it's like me I'm I'm exploring the whole map and trying to level up my character as much as I can before I try to take those on because I don't want to lose I don't want I don't want to lose that um because I I'm playing every time with pin save I'm just I'm just slowly progressing through the game um Joel save it's so great it's such a fun way like it is like I'm I'm glad that they're doing something like this because what I keep telling a lot of people it's not every single release needs to be a tournament pin like that's perf that's perfectly fine we've already got hundreds out there not every single new release has to be that it can be something different for somebody people play like there's more people that play Pinball that don't play in tournaments right there's always that person that just has like their man cave at home or a family has their family room and they happen to have that one pin that's just right there because they have the family game board room and they just happen to want to have something like a DND or something like that or I've seen like Star Wars fans right super fans have Mandalorian and Star Wars right there that's all they have so y there's there's plenty of room out there I think the industry is a lot larger than what people realize in that that aspect so you know I I think that that's what I would tell people because I know of course if you look on Facebook you look on pinside you will see right off the bat like a lot of people are all about like where's the code where's this where's that and we see that a lot sometimes it has some Merit sometimes it doesn't right it's you know it just it really depends people have different different perspectives they have different wants different needs when they're playing a game this right here it scratches the itch of progression it scratches the itch of exploring M right it scratches the itch of knowing that your game if you wrap your brain around this your game isn't necessarily a three ball game your adventure your adventure could be a 12 ball game a 15 ball game a 30 ball game however long it takes you you keep using the pin save with your IC you just keep logging in over and over again you're going to get there eventually and so if that helps people enjoy the game more then you know I'm all for it so it it doesn't it doesn't have to be the Super balanced game it could have that story progression that's perfectly fine I completely agree and so what I I had to look it up because um I what did you have to look up Joel what I looked I had to look up what was the last turn I and I was my memory is correct the last turn game Jared and I streamed was Beatles and Beatles and d and d could not be more different Beatles Beatles is a it's a modern pin but it's it's super fast and it's the modes like Jared and I were not the best players but we've seen every single aspect of that game except for the final wizard mode which is not but it's like we saw it all in a two-hour stream and you I mean it's very easy to see everything in that game um but yet that game kept had that one more game feeling because it's just like it was so fast it's easy to understand it's fun and to get to the not the main wizard mode but the second one where all you have to do is complete five modes or play five modes just play five modes it was just right there it was just right there I just wanted to keep coming back so that's one of those where we're seeing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again but it's fine it was fine it was fun while this is the opposite Jared and I have streamed it twice for two hours each and we're we we barely see everything in the game we're we're barely seeing it and that's not repeating anything that's just okay we did that mode oh but three balls over we hop back in let's keep going let's keep going and it's 085 code like it's not anywhere near complete um the only thing you're going to experience over potentially experience over and over again is like I'm in one of my characters I'm in the the final dungeons so this is the dungeon in Dragon Spear and so I've beat everything else that's in the game I but I have to get through that dungeon and once I get through that dungeon then I get to the final wizard mode so the problem is that dungeon is like five stages and as of right now I've already beat it once this is the second time I've worked through it um for me to beat all five of those stages in a three ball game is a challenge it's a challenge because it's a hard mode and there's and it's very unique each stage um and I could even break that down each stage is so different um but if I can do that if I can do that in a three ball game great then I'll get to final wizard Bo if not if I die if I drain when I hit start again I can start that dungeon over again so sure I'm repeating that dungeon over and over again or Jared on stream he had one mode that he kept playing over and over again because he was trying to beat that one that one mode but it's not it's very it's just so different than a lot of other games where it's to get back into the thing you want to do you have to grind through the the beginning progression right and I to re qualify you have to do this you have to do that and and that's where the pin save really comes in handy because obviously if you're just starting from the beginning it's almost like you're going through the same road map over and over and over again to get to where you're you're wanting to be and granted that's like that's the classic thing about video games right like just you you try to get through it you die you find you're like you're in you go back to the beginning you try to do it again like that's just you know that's the basic thing but that being said obviously pinball can be a difficult game for a lot of people and rightfully so it takes years and years to get really really good at it it really does and so I understand from that standpoint of having somebody that might have less than six months of gameplay that they're just trying to figure out their flipper skills or just trying to figure out what is going on through all the chaos I think it is very helpful to be able to have something to where you're already like you get to save your progression through and you get to start a new game but technically it might as well just be your fourth ball or fifth ball and you get to keep going through I think that that's pretty cool because at the same time too let's face facts the people that do the software and the rules for these games they go all out on it obviously and they put they try to put as much as they can that makes sense right and then you have so much at the beginning of the game but then it's like what happens at the mid game or the end game right it's you want people to be able to see that not just like 5% of the player base to see it you want everybody to see it as much as possible so seeing something like like this pretty cool I I am hopeful that Stern implements this at some level for all the pens from here on out just to give people the option to do that I I think that that would be huge because I've lost track how many times I've tried to introduce pinball to friends family just like you say Joel friends and family all the neighbors um talk to people at shows and they just they have a hard time getting past the first tiers of a mode or the first multiball of a game and they want to experience more but let's face facts real life also happens also these people have families they have jobs they don't have enough time just to sit there and play Pinball two to four hours a day and get to the skill level they need to experience that because it's final final wizard modes yeah oh yeah or just or not even that even like I I've Ted to so many people Joel that haven't even seen a tier 2 mode on Godzilla oh yeah or some that have never been in a battle on Godzilla because that scoop is impossible for for them to hit yeah it it's wild like I've talked to several people like Mandalorian right yeah like you you had Mandalorian for a while correct okay it's like how often were you able to get to just a main like mini wizard mode that was associated with like the encounters or missions or the multi yeah the average Joe they're not going to do it and I think Stern and others have done it too but to have the uh the challenge modes to have things built into the game now where before you hit start you you can warp ahead you can experience things I was going to say that with jaws like the fact that Fourth of July multiball is is a challenge mode you know for some people they'll never they'll never get there or the search mission there's a few which is so great that they're putting that in and that's where I think pinside or pin save honestly I think pin save is probably the best and potentially the worst thing for d and d and and what I mean by that is I think there are plenty of people plenty of pinball enthusias where they get the game and they they have the ability where they will play the heck out of a game until they beat it and then once they've beat it it's gone theoretically if you bought B D and D today if you're that type of person you could beat the game in one night like you could it's G to take like you could see every single thing in the game in one night if you if you allow yourself to use pin safe I've had the game now uh it'll be the week and a half I've already beat the game I've seen everything in the game um luckily I really loved it and I want to keep playing more it all me back in I want to keep playing more I will say there's a way around that though okay there's okay there's two ways around it okay first off the the first way around it is just patience because obviously more is going to be put into the game there's still two other characters coming y more wizard modes more story it'll be further pushed out the second way you could do it it has the impossible mode on there which yeah you can only trap up for one and a half seconds and play I've tried impossible mode a couple times it's hard it's hard but on this game it makes sense like Mandalorian imposs mode is just pure chaos just because of the way the layout is just pure chaos Venom a little less chaotic still chaos yeah Turtles like forget about it this one though it makes sense the way that the shots are the way you can use the shield it all makes sense and so if you get through the story already and you want a challenge just play impossible mode for a little while you will have a good time yeah just do that you can absolutely do it just depends on like a new game plus just like you would do on Skyrim or elen ring like that's that's all you got to do and I think there's more coming to this game I think Dwight knows this and Dwight I mean it wouldn't surprise me if there was like a speedrun mode or something like that a time trial something where it's like okay you can beat the game but let's let's see how fast you do it's the speedrun aspect is already built into Venom so why of course I'm assuming he's going to bring that into D and D there's plenty here you can do uh and I that's I've played honestly I think I've played this game more I I looked at my numbers of so all the games that Zach Zach's let me borrow and typically I borrow them anywhere from you know one to three maybe four weeks I think I have the most plays of any game on Venom and DN within that time period because of this pin save because of this leveling up because of like I can just go to I can piek up where I was I can keep chipping away at it um and I'm I'm really having a blast with it um I I I want to take one second here because I thought about this the other day this is tell me how this isn't Fun okay so dragon dragon spear dungeon right it's five it's five levels okay I haven't played it yet so please explain it let me explain it to you and spoil it for you but okay what I what I mean spoilers coming up listen well spoilers but this is where I we talked about this weeks ago about what makes a mode fun right so the first stage is you're battling trolls trolls are huge you can't you can't just hit them you can't just hit them like you've done in every other a lot of the other modes when you're battling a thing um so if you're hitting the red shots you have to you have to lure it into a trap so there's a yellow shot so you hit the yellow shot and then it moves over and then you have to hit another yellow shot and then you have to hit the dungeon Target and this is the first mode that aiming at the dungeon Target is actually what you want to do so now all of a sudden you're aiming at a Target that so when you say dungeon Target you're meaning the two standups the one the one by the right ramp right orbit and the side troll you have to hit the right ramp and then it moves over to the right then you have to hit the right orbit and then now you're hitting the right dungeon Target that goes between them um if you happen to hit the dungeon Target instead of the yellow shot it it hurts them half so you have to do the whole process again you have to do that twice so do it once to the right and then you do it once to the left so it's like that's unique you can't use your way your range weapon you can't just plow through it like hey I'm a level 10 guy I'm just going to keep bashing this bad guy no you have to you have to follow that path then you go down a level the next level is skeletons so everything's lit but there's decoys so you can hit a red shot but it may not be a real skeleton it'll say nope decoy so you're having to either trap up and wait and see which ones are going to attack you and then oh I'm about to be attacked by this guy because it's flashing he's real let me hit him so it's like you're aiming at everything but kind of trying to pay attention narratively makes sense the game's happening okay so you're surrounded by skeletons but you're there's going to be two or three that are going to hit you and you gota oh that one's flashing that one means that shots real let me prioritize that oh I missed it I missed it oh boom I just got hit that's level two then you get to level three level three is probably my favorite mode in the game which is is there's a red shot so he can hit you but you can't hurt him apparently it's this flying creature um the only way you can hit it is with your bow so you can't also just use your bow so what you have to do is there's a red shot that kind of moves around which you kind of ignore but what you have to do is you have to hit a yellow shot a yellow shot will stop the ball and then it gives you a chance you get one shot with your range weapon to hit the red shot it'll stop the ball or what will it stop the ball like when you say the ball what do you mean like the actual pinball so the first shot may be like the the the shortcut shot so you hit that and then the maget going to turn on to stop you actually shoot the shot okay I thought you were meaning you use your bow it so so you the first thing you do is you have to hit a yellow shot which will hold the ball and then while the ball's being held that gives you the opportunity to hold down the action to shoot the shot which is cool because this this is a very late in the stage dungeon so you might have gotten some of the some of the the treasure or some of the things that increased your skill with the bow or there's a level three mode that if you beat it you get a more powerful bow if you haven't done any of that the the the light goes so fast the r wow the range weapon is kind of hard but if you level it up it'll slow down the light or it may give you you can hit the shot or if you miss it by one shot it'll actually be like a span of two or a span of three so if you level up your character this particular stage I love it I I think it's such a unique way to play because if you miss it releases the ball and then you got to do it again you got to hit the yellow shot gives you another shot to to hit it with a bow the whole time is if you're taking too long or you miss your shots the creature that you're shooting at is going to hurt you so you could run out of health and die that's level three oh so there's still a couple more levels okay L three all right go ahead then you get down to level four level four you're battling a guy who's invisible so now in that mode you have to hit standup targets there's the dragon standup Targets on the left there's the dungeon stand up upper left there's dungeon and if you hit a Target it'll light up the shots in that area and if they're all white it means he's not there because he's invisible so you're trying to hit the targets to find where the shot is that the invisible guy is once you find that then you hit that shot enough to kill him after you do that there's you have a choice storyline there's a choice there's an event that happens and you basically choose kind of left or right and what that choice will eventually impact is which final wizard mode you will do oh you're basically choosing whose side you're on well you pick a like do I want to do this like fight this guy or do I want to do this chase after this and depending on what happens in that Final Phase after you get through that Final Phase that's what will then start the particular wizard mode there's gonna be three in the game so this one dungeon and this one event would impact which one of the two you're going to play so then the fifth wizard mode you do some more stuff which is fun and unique and then if you beat that fifth phase that's what unlocks the final wizard mode to play but like that's me just explaining one dungeon one dungeon in the game right like that is it's so much fun like and it because the art reflects it it makes sense it's thematic you're playing the game in a unique way I I really had have a lot of fun like I that's the type of stuff that I'm enjoying in D and D and the way the modes feel unique and you know I'm really having a lot of fun with it well and you're touching base too on just kind of like putting a nice bow on top of all this of why you know it might be important to eventually have some type of like dungeon speedrun in the game to allow people to be able to play The Dungeons just straight from the start button right because it sounds like it's pretty cool but on top of that it shows why the pin save kind of works you know with this situation because once you think about it that type of event in-game event yeah if you don't have the pin save then you're most likely only seeing it like once every few games or if you're really struggling and maybe not ever like who knows because it's in the game right to qualify that dungeon means remember to play the dungeon the city dungeon you have to be all the modes in that City that dungeon has two modes but they're level three modes talking about Dragon spear drag so for me to play that dungeon it means I would have to be level one mode level two mode of of that of one of the colors then the level one mode the level two mode of another color and remember all those four modes are in different towns so it' be beat a mode move to another town beat a mode move to another town beat a mode move to another town beat a mode move to another town then move to that town then beat the two level three modes and then I'd be in that dungeon that's a lot you're telling me I'm supposed to do all that in a three ball game it's tough like sure Carl might be able to do it but yeah to me like the average player I would never see that dungeon and that's that's where I think they we've they've put a lot of pressure on Dwight in a way because these in-game modes have to be just as fun as every other mode because pin save is gonna allow people to experience them while I think you know there are games out there where the final wizard mode is super basic kind of lame because you know 2% of all owners are ever going to see it um so it's it's awesome it's really that's what I'm really liking about the game um but because of this they've they've made it really hard for themselves I mean there's bugs there's been bugs that that you've seen that I've seen it's 085 there's plenty here but um I just I I'm enjoying this this side of pinball I'm enjoying it a lot it's just one of those things and I don't even want to pretend that I I don't know about you Joel I have no idea how to code like I no I have no clue I can barely remember the password to my email you know it it's just one of those things that I imagine doing all that stuff it's awfully hard to do it's a lot of work a lot of hours a lot of refining a lot of if you miss like one letter one comment one whatever I'm sure it just throws the whole thing off you know the reality is is that when you're dealing with modern games and you're dealing with so much to where you have like LCD assets you might have movie assets you might have show assets you might have art assets then you have you know all these endgame events you have to make sure things aren't colliding together right I mean it's that that in itself's tough when you have certain RGB lights out there and something might take priority over something else like I can't imagine it just makes my head spin so it it's kind of one of those things that I'm not saying that everybody should just say oh just Just go with it and not expect a well polished product that's not what I'm saying at all what I am saying is is to realize that the people behind these projects no matter what company they're with whether it's Stern spooky jjp you name it the the people behind these games are definitely working their tail ends off because everybody at the end of the day I would have to assume that they want a polished product or at least as much polish as they can get behind it so I think it's just just as long as you know close to the start button you feel like there's enough to do in the game and the unique thing about DND D because it has a pin save they kind of have to go beyond that now because it's yeah they have to go beyond the first five 10 minutes of the game and that's really tough to do yeah that's that's insanely tough to do so if they can get that figured out kudos to them I mean you're you're obviously speaking highly of this dungeon that you play I haven't got the chance to play it yet but you'll enjoy it it sounds fun you'll enjoy it it's but it's just that's what I like I like modes that are fun I like modes that that make you play the game in a different way um challenge you in with some with a unique you know like you could you could beat you could theoretically beat the whole game without ever using your range weapon but now all of a sudden they throw in a mode they throw in a mode where you have to that's the typ of that I I just find enjoy and unique and that's that's why I like um you know I've already worked my way all through the game I've I've almost beat it a second time but it's because each mode is so different and the fact that you're not forced to do that mode over and over and over again you got to stop enjoying pinball so much Joel we're we're supposed to be angry about prices well and all that we're supposed to be angry at everything where's the magic well maybe that's next we're in a weird spot right now and and what I mean is um you know I D and D was the rumor and then obviously came out and there was a big question mark of like how's this going to be I've been nothing but happy with what I've experienced in D and D but then also you know we we have other games that that people feel are unfinished you know some other Stern games or I know X-Men's getting a lot of hate um with with the code and kind of where that's at so there's some people that are like hey I've committed you know I've bought the last few games and and I feel like somebody's dropping the ball or it's not enough you know and we're in a weird spot and then on top of that we've got two potential behemoths right around the corner you know rumored jjp Harry Potter and then Ellen's next game Ellen is whatever he's seven for seven I don't know how many he's done like he's he doesn't miss so 's next game right around the corner there's a chance that we're gonna have some really big good fun pinball very soon coming our way um so I know some people are holding on you know they're holding on to money holding on waiting you know what do I what do I want to do um it's a cool spot to be in in a way I'm I'm excited for what's happening yeah it's and it's totally understandable like we we definitely we we kind of take the piss out of the whole pricing thing and all that but honestly like obviously I work in the pinball industry I work for a company has to sell these games of course like we want people to feel like they're getting value out of the game getting utility out of the game it's just it's two different mindsets right you have the mindset of somebody that's buying the game because it's a game they're going to play it they're not going to worry about the money like that's honestly what my mindset has always been before I start working in pinball that's the way it's always been and I've always enjoyed it it's always been fine I've never had any expectations ever of anything retaining value and I've bought Le and not one time have I sold an Le for more than what I bought it for or for anywhere like even the same I just haven't but I do get the ones that that's a priority for them I get it like the priority is money over utility of actually playing the game there is a group out there that's like that I totally get that they're going to have their opinion on their opinion on how the games are and you know there's always a group out there that will scrutinize every single pen No Matter What whether they've bought the game or not they will always scrutinize it and I will always say like everybody has every right have any opinion you want you know right or wrong whether people disagree don't disagree you have every right to voice what you feel how you feel whether it's about money about code whether you love it whether you hate it whether you agree whether you disagree that's what's great about this industry you hear different opinions and everything some might seem wrong some might seem right you know it just it is what it is but I will say I do get it though the ones that have bought certain games and they feel like there's not enough in there like I get the wait and see mentality that some people have you know it's fine and then others they just they want to play the game ASAP I know a lot of people that will buy a game up front they'll play it with the intent of selling it within the first three months knowing that they're going to buy it again A year later when the codee's more fleshed out there is a group yeah I know multiple people that do that and that's yeah and that's fine like it's just you know it's one of those things if you know what's baked into the cake with pinball that you're going to get a game that's like a live service game that's always going to keep evolving you know if you understand that then you got to side like what's your entry point for that is it at the very beginning code out of buck and then you just enjoy the ride along the way or is it just wait a little while and find a new and box game eventually or a used game eventually and then go from there like that's the beauty of the industry you can choose to do anything you want to do with it 100% And I I know I've been spoiled in a way because you know I get a borrow games from Zach and and sometimes it's it's bad in a way because uh perfect example is Bond you know when I when Bond was in this house the code was really bad it just was nonexistent so my overall experience uh with Bond wasn't the greatest it wasn't the greatest thing and yet here now the game's in a fantastic spot it's in a fantastic spot that I'd love to play so when people always ask me you know where do you rank I had it the other day where where do you rank D and D now amongst games you'd want to own and I always tell people like I know when it leaves when it's gone and it's been out of my house and I don't get to play it every day you know what are the games that I miss what are theam games that I you know if I have the opportunity to play them again because honestly there's been games that once I've played it a month I'm good I'm good I've experienced everything I want in that game while there are other ones where it's like I miss that game I want that game back that game fit my collection so well it's so damn hard to judge games early on though because you're always judging them based off potential yeah you always are and it's like it's a lot easier when it's at 1.0 right and it's kind of one of those things too if you're judging the game off potential well your judgment's only to go as far as what level you're at in terms of your game play your experience how many games you played what what is in your database for your understanding of rules layout or your fun level right like how much have you played that you know that you know that you like that you don't like that's the only way you can judge it because obviously somebody like I can tell you straight up when I first got into pinball my likes are way different than what it is today the things I prioritize are way different than it is today and you know until you get out there and you do that it's it's kind of weird Joel it's like you and I we shoot the [ __ ] all the time we talk all the time but you only learn so much by talking at some point you have to go play these Mach yeah and you got to put in the time and you got to decide what you really like and what you really value and that shapes really like how you feel right because it's it's just too easy it's too easy to listen to us Knuckleheads or any other knucklehead out there yeah and say oh well they said this so I got to think that way like no no no no no no you play the game you make the decision for yourself what do you like like it's just our opinion it's not like set in stone like something something that I love Joel you might hate and we've talked about before something you love I might be like oh I don't know yeah you know it's just that's the way it is totally obviously if Tom was here uh he would say he what Tom like same thing it's it's I think that's the best thing for anybody listening to this podcast uh hopefully you know you you you as an individual are playing enough pinball to start to find what you like and if you can find a Creator whether it's somebody else in podcast a streamer somebody that makes YouTube videos and if you feel like all of a sudden you're lining up with the games that they like and you like then yeah it's that's you know cling on to that and maybe that's a person that you can trust because it's like clearly what they're into is stuff that I'm into um but that doesn't make any one of us right or wrong it's just personal preference and I know the games I like are different than my brother which are different than Travis which are different than Tom or Carl or Zack Minnie or whoever um and that's what's great that's what's great about pinball but um I am running out of time so I do need to get off what I was gonna say though is um this was hard for me this I I tried to be nice I was going to be nice that I just I want you to know I I did edit myself I I there was there were a few comments that I was gonna make you know one of them I was gonna I didn't make it one of them I was going to make though was you know you said you know we we hold out on games based on potential the comment I would have made if I would have made it would have been you know I think Monica was you know dating you based on the potential what you I didn't make it I didn't make the comment but if I would have then that's what I would have gone down that route we could have dug into that about it's true I was the first round draft pick and just they're just waiting just waiting yeah that participation trophy husband that you are isn't that what you but I didn't make it I didn't make it trophy husband not participation I didn't make it I didn't make it so um Let's uh let's wrap it up here um I will go ahead and plug Fox Cities Pinball for Tom um and then I know he has some tournaments coming up so check out everything that he does on Twitch um side note tppy are this Saturday we're recording this on a Friday um what I have learned is is um Fox Fox City's made top four uh when it came to videographer and streamer and I and I I know that's awesome so I I'm speaking for Tom here I'm putting words in his mouth but thank you for everybody that that supports uh Fox City and everything that Tom does because I know he works very hard and um he does a lot for on the tournament side um and then I'll go ahead and plug myself as well I do fliping Out YouTube channel I also learned that fliping out made top four for video and streamers so once again anybody that that voted on us uh thank you thank you because I know Jared and I have a great time with that um and doing that and then unfortunately triple drain did not make top four of podcasts but you know what that's fine we appreciate Tri dra didn't make it and my content didn't make it everybody out there you dead to me everybody out there thank you for the support appreciate I only do content for your guys PL harder all you plug is triple drain you know you feel free to plug Travis feel free to plug no everybody's dead to me now I told him that all you guys anybody that's driving anybody that's jogging right now if you're listening to this while playing thank you thank you you're dead to me until the next podcast perfect perfect but no overall I mean uh we have a lot of fun with this podcast UH 60 episodes in no plan to stop anytime soon hopefully we'll have Tom on on the next one and um yeah any you got anything else Travis yeah you guys can find me right here at this non- nominated podcast of triple drain and then you guys can find me on that fth you can find me on that Podunk channel the pinball company over on YouTube they have like the shittiest content ever can't get one vote but that's fine I'm not a hater at all I'm I'm not hurt I'm not hurt at all forget it you know I'll just keep wearing my pink shirts and just being your little your little dancing monkey on the spooky pictures for you yeah maybe get some pants I didn't say it I didn't say it I didn't say it I didn't say it it's all good I appreciate you guys it's only it's only Joel that's dead nobody else okay so uh Travis you're gonna get your this a very unique experience so don't mess this up but Travis uh you get the last words I just said it all Joel everybody just hit back 30 seconds on your podcast and you'll hear everything I had to say