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Episode 14: We made this show up on the spot... it's not bad.

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·held·Jun 25, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Hosts discuss Stern/JJP/Spooky news, then pit Pat Lawlor vs Steve Ritchie games.

Summary

Poor Man's A Pinball Podcast Episode 14 features an unscripted conversation between hosts Ian and Drew about recent pinball industry news. Key topics include: Black Knight Sword of Rage (Pro) of Rage physical enhancement announcement (playfield protectors and rubber posts for Premium/LE owners), Jersey Jack Pinball first Wonda shipment heading to distributors, American Pinball new facility open house, Spooky Pinball's Alice Cooper production and recent code updates with co-op modes, and a lengthy Pat Lawlor vs. Steve Ritchie designer showdown comparing their games year-by-year from 1990-2019. The hosts acknowledge their limited pinball knowledge and rely on Pinside ratings and community sentiment to evaluate games.

Key Claims

  • Black Knight Sword of Rage Premium and LE owners receive playfield protectors and rubber posts as a physical enhancement, plus code from Black Knight 2000.

    high confidence · Ian and Drew watched the announcement on a stream featuring Jack and Steve Ritchie; they confirmed seeing the actual enhancement revealed on Danger stream

  • Jersey Jack Pinball shipped the first batch of Wonda machines (believed to be standards going to distributors) within the past 24 hours via R&L carrier.

    high confidence · Drew shared a photo/video of the truck with Ian before recording; JJP had promised shipment before July 4th

  • Spooky Pinball released new code for Alice Cooper around June 13-14, adding a ball save for balls that hop from habit trail to outlane, and co-op battle modes.

    high confidence · Ian and Drew discussed the code update; specific date mentioned around June 13-14

  • American Pinball held a large open house/facility tour event over a weekend, showcasing a large manufacturing space.

    medium confidence · Ian and Drew saw Facebook posts about the event with brats, beer, and Oktoberfest machine playable

  • Drew is trading his Hobbit (which had recurring technical issues) to a distributor for a brand new Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle.

    high confidence · Drew posted the trade on Pinside and was contacted directly by the distributor who sold him the Hobbit; trade was agreed to and Alice Cooper ordered with scary blue powder coat, expected in about a month

  • Steve Ritchie was on vacation during Episode 14 recording and couldn't appear as a guest, with plans to return for future episodes.

    high confidence · Ian and Drew mentioned Ryan Kuiper (TurboGrafx-7) was on vacation and would be 'rehired' for the next episode

  • Stern typically announces new games every 2-3 months, with Drew predicting the next announcement in early August.

    medium confidence · Ian and Drew discussed release timeline patterns; Drew guessed beginning of August, with possibility of end-of-July news release

Notable Quotes

  • “We don't know shit about pinball, but there's a couple hundred of you guys and gals that are constantly listening to us, so thank you for that.”

    Ian @ ~00:04:30 — Self-aware acknowledgment of the hosts' limited expertise, establishing tone of the show as enthusiast rather than expert

  • “Fake it until you make it. I've been faking it until I make it for my whole life. 14 episodes at least.”

    Ian @ ~00:03:45 — Humorous admission of using Pinside layouts and visual information to fill gaps in knowledge

  • “He's got a golden ticket... It's got a golden twinkle in his eye.”

    Drew (singing reference) @ ~00:09:00 — Drew referencing Jack Vincent's excited demeanor on social media about Wonka shipping; playful tone

  • “I want a Wonka down here, man. I do. I don't know how I'm going to do it yet, though. Where the fuck am I going to get $10,000 from?”

    Drew @ ~00:11:30 — Reflects the financial barrier to entry for collectors on machines, even enthusiastic ones

  • “Two thousand dollars though for a physical ball lock... it's just a lot that's all.”

    Ian @ ~00:12:45 — Skepticism about the Premium/LE price premium ($2k difference) for the Wonkavator feature

  • “I'm going to wait for that open box. Hey, we used this at a show or something. I'll get my hands on a slightly used Wonka and save myself the money, I think.”

    Ian @ ~00:13:00 — Strategic secondary market strategy to avoid premium pricing on new machines

  • “Pro owners still get broken plastics, apparently.”

    Ian @ ~00:06:45 — Criticism that Stern's Black Knight Pro tier lacks the protective enhancements given to Premium/LE

  • “I don't think Star Wars is that great of a game. Star Wars is fine. It is what it is. It's fine, but it ain't no Hobbit.”

    Ian @ ~00:25:00 — Unpopular opinion in the collector community; willingness to trade valuable game for preferred experience

Entities

Poor Man's Pinball PodcastorganizationIanpersonDrewpersonRyan KuiperpersonStern PinballcompanyBlack Knight Sword of RagegameJersey Jack Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Black Knight Sword of Rage Pro tier lacks playfield protectors that Premium/LE owners receive, despite apparent plastic breakage issues affecting the lower playfield

    high · Ian and Drew noted that playfield protectors/longer washers are only for Premium and LE, while Pro owners 'still get broken plastics, apparently'

  • ?

    product_launch: Jersey Jack Pinball shipped first batch of Wonda machines to distributors, meeting Jack Vincent's pre-July 4th deadline

    high · Drew saw R&L carrier truck photo/video from JJP facility within last 24 hours; machines believed to be Standard tier going to distributors

  • ?

    code_update: Spooky Pinball's Alice Cooper received new code around June 13-14 adding intelligent ball save for habit trail hops and co-op battle modes

    high · Ian praised the ball save feature as 'really cool' for accidental air balls; co-op mode allows casual players to play together vs. monsters

  • ?

    community_signal: Strong FOMO and hype around Wonka despite $10k+ cost; secondary market strategy emerging to avoid premium pricing through open box purchases

    high · Ian mentioned waiting for open box Wonka deals within 1-2 months; both hosts wavering on purchase but reconsidering after shipment announcement

  • ?

    collector_signal: Drew employed secondary market trade strategy to upgrade from problematic Hobbit to new Alice Cooper, leveraging distributor relationships

    high · Drew posted Hobbit as trade bait on Pinside; distributor who sold him the Hobbit offered Alice Cooper trade; Alice Cooper on order for ~1 month delivery

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.151

0:00
Hey guys, flapping your flippers, waxing your balls. Poor Man's Pinball Podcast is what you're tuning into with Drew and Ian.
0:21
Welcome to the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. I'm Ian. I am Drew. And this is episode number 14, the episode we made up just now. How are you doing, Drew? I'm doing great. How are you today, Ian? I feel fine. What you drinking today, my man? I am not drinking Kessler. I am drinking some of that Flaviar Whiskey of the Month stuff. Whiskey of the Month? I think it's... Whiskey and what, buddy? Seven. It's our version of Seven and Seven, but it's not Seagram's. I'm doing the same thing. Flaviar. Sure. Mine just said whiskey. It said whiskey product of USA. So, hey. USA whiskey. All right. USA. I was going to do 7 and 7, but, you know, obviously it's the American version, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, we don't have the Canadian stuff here. I don't know why. I need to get some Canadian shit out of here. Is Seagram's Canadian? Yeah, Seagram's is Canadian whiskey for sure. Okay. For sure. Drew, what's going on with you, man? How you doing? Doing great, man. I'm excited to be back for episode 14 here. Two in a row, baby. Two in a row.
1:31
Bowles are doing great. Yes. We are fully recovered. No, digging it, man. I'm glad to be back. We wanted Ryan Kuiper, TurboGrafx-7, to join us, but he's on his vacation this week. He's on vacation. We fired him for the week. Yes, yes. He'll be rehired. Oh, yeah. He'll be back. We need his knowledge on this show because we have very little. It turns out I have never played a pinball machine. Next to that guy, the guy is like a little encyclopedia. He knows everything. We were just talking before the show, and we were kind of kicking around some ideas, and we're talking about different things we can talk about with different games from past eras and stuff, and Ian just said to me, I don't play as much pinball as you guys. I don't know half of these games.

Elvira is confirmed for an October release from Stern.

medium confidence · Ian and Drew mentioned Elvira was 'kind of confirmed' for October, though they were speculating on spacing between announcements

  • Whirlwind (Pat Lawlor, 1990) scores 8.1 on Pinside vs. Rollergames (Steve Ritchie, 1990) at 7.5.

    high confidence · Ian and Drew cited specific Pinside ratings during the Pat vs. Steve showdown comparison

  • Funhouse and Terminator 2 (both early 90s) were called a wash in the Pat Lawlor vs. Steve Ritchie comparison, with both hosts disagreeing on a clear winner.

    high confidence · Ian and Drew debated Funhouse vs. Terminator 2, couldn't reach consensus, called it a wash

  • “A little bit of blood rushed to my penis, man. That's good stuff.”

    Drew @ ~00:27:15 — Drew expressing excitement about potential future three-pin collection: Alice Cooper, Simpsons, Wonka

  • “Whirlwind is truly a classic. You know, when you talk about 90s pins, that's one of them.”

    Ian @ ~00:31:00 — Recognition of Whirlwind as canonical 90s pinball classic in Pat Lawler vs. Steve Ritchie comparison

    • Wonderland
    game
    [name withheld pending review]person
    American Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castlegame
    Charlieperson
    Pat Lawlorperson
    Steve Ritchieperson
    Pinsideorganization
    Hobbitgame
    Whirlwindgame
    Rollergamesgame
    The Addams Familygame
    Terminator 2game
    Twilight Zonegame
    Star Trek: The Next Generationgame
    Metallica (LE)game
    Simpsons Pinball Partygame
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spooky Pinball adding co-op modes to Alice Cooper to make game accessible to casual/non-pinball players and reduce intimidation factor

    high · Ian praised feature for allowing him to play with Drew's son who doesn't play pinball; described as something that 'should have been done years ago'

  • $

    market_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball Premium tier commands $2k premium over Standard tier; buyers evaluating cost-benefit of Wonkavator feature against aftermarket alternatives

    high · Ian noted $2k price difference; questioned if Wonkavator worth $2k when shaker motor ($100) and invisiglass (couple hundred) available aftermarket

  • ?

    venue_signal: American Pinball opened new large manufacturing facility; holds open house with playable machines and social elements (brats, beer)

    medium · Ian and Drew saw Facebook posts about open house event; described facility as 'monstrous'; hosts expressed hope facility fills up and American Pinball succeeds

  • ?

    business_signal: Rumors circulating that American Pinball may pursue contract manufacturing for other companies to maximize facility utilization

    medium · Ian and Drew discussed rumors of American Pinball contract manufacturing; suggested company has manufacturing expertise but needs more design resources

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ryan Kuiper (TurboGrafx-7) on vacation during Episode 14 but anticipated to return for future episodes and planned Alice Cooper slumber party stream

    high · Ian and Drew mentioned Kuiper on vacation and being 'rehired' for next episode; plans for streaming equipment and technical support for Alice Cooper stream

  • ?

    content_signal: Poor Man's Pinball Podcast planning slumber party streaming event when Alice Cooper arrives; plans to leverage Kuiper's streaming technical expertise

    medium · Drew and Ian decided they will 'do a slumber party and stream it'; planning to involve Kuiper for streaming equipment and technical knowledge

  • ?

    industry_signal: Poor Man's Pinball conducting Pat Lawler vs. Steve Ritchie designer showdown (1990-2019) to establish canonical comparison of two legendary designers' catalogs

    medium · Multi-segment comparing Whirlwind vs. Roller Games, Funhouse vs. Terminator 2, Addams Family vs. Getaway, Twilight Zone vs. Star Trek TNG; using Pinside ratings and personal preference

    • 2:16
    True story. I'm like, well, what the fuck am I going to say? I can't fill dead air. I mean, done. Do what I do. If I don't know, I go to Pinside, I open up the layout, and I go, oh, look, there's this cool ramp on this game. I've totally seen it like 100 times. Yeah. Hey, what do they say? Fake it until you make it, right? Fake it until you make it. I've been faking it until I make it for my whole life. 14 episodes at least. Yeah. Yeah, we don't know shit about pinball, but there's a couple hundred of you guys and gals that are constantly listening to us, so thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. It's nice. We went from 14 to a couple hundred. It didn't take long. Yeah, we have a... It's only episode 14. We have a couple of new shout-outs later at our mailbag. You guys can look forward to it at the end of the episode. Yeah, you better believe it, brother.
    3:04
    Feeling strong. We got some news, right? Yep, we actually do have some news this week. It's been pretty slow the last few weeks, but... Slow. But a couple of things came in this week. number one from stern so black knight sword of rage has been shipping for what two months now roughly roughly yeah yeah yeah and the pro and the premium and the are the ellies out uh yeah those are usually last for stern so i yeah um no yeah no those are out those are usually first yeah then the premiums are the ones that usually lag behind ellies are out anyways they stern going to announce this thing they're going to have a new physical and here's my air quotes enhancement to the game yeah we just saw it before we went on air guys oh it's so disappointing well you know we had our we had we just you know here drew and i are sitting here and our big dig you know on the game is what the pro should have been the premium because they should have had to there's not much going on in the pro right right okay so then they release this whole thing hey premium and le owners you get a physical uh enhancement to the game plus code from black night 2000 which i didn't get a chance to look at but apparently it's like a new wizard mode so before we share this with the listening audience here what what did you think a physical enhancement meant and we're not talking about your penis enhance i thought one of two things and i was wrong on both accounts but i thought it was either going to be a very decorative mod you know maybe another something something a figure yeah figure something that plugs into something that might light up as the game goes on sure whatever just like a little present from stern to say hey thanks for buying the game or something the other thing big long shot i know but i was thinking maybe some sort of small i i hate to use the word mech because i understand it's not going to be a mech mech but you know something for the ball to interact with how about that something small very small i was i He had very low expectations. I thought the same. I mean, anything that, yeah, like I said, a lighted mod or something that just made the game a little better, and they're just like, hey, this is cool. Yeah, something you could have gotten from the mod couple. Yeah. Right. But what did it end up being? Well, you know, we're watching the Danger stream. Jack does an amazing job, you know, and he's there, and he's with Steve Ritchie and the rest of the cast and crew of the Black Knight Sword of Rage. And what they showed was, well, some of the plastics, I guess, were breaking. So they had some playfield protectors, but they were like longer washers or whatever to prevent the plastics from breaking. So I guess that's a good thing, right? Sure. Pro owners still get broken plastics, apparently.
    5:49
    Yeah, do you think, can you use these on the Pro? Well, this is the lower playfield, yeah. That's what I'm saying. That part was the lower playfield. That was by the left sling. This is only for the premium and LE people, though. That's what I thought. Okay. I don't know. maybe i'm wrong guys email us over at poor man spinball at gmail.com okay however uh they did show what was new on the upper play field and it was uh two or three posts with uh rubbers on them which you know if done right you can have different size posts but you the ball could come out of the mech or if you miss that mech it'll bounce off those rubbers into the flipper on the top now i'm one of these guys i love protectors so it's on the left side yeah i love protectors for my games i love cliffies i love condoms for my games protectors i like it i think it's great drew needs to use condoms but when i saw this and then i saw what what i thought it was and then when it actually came out i was uh a little underwhelmed but you know what even as a poor man from poor man's pinball podcast we could afford this because it was zero dollars so you can't really bitch about it right no it wasn't zero dollars it was seventy five hundred dollars well yeah the game itself yeah it's still a nine thousand dollar game but you know you get a free you know some free posts and some rubbers man you get some free rubbers what nothing wrong with free rubbers you could always use free rubbers right right so that was it that was that was the big news from stern hey better than nothing i'm glad they did i guess yeah right it's just it's just Drew and I just, we want to like that game so much. And we do like the premium and the LE. Even the pro, once again, it's Steve Ritchie. It's fun to shoot, but I just can't. I have never once said to myself, I should own this game. I just can't. Right. I can't do it. Right. I play it on location if I see it all day long. Yeah. All day long. Yeah, I have, and I've actually had a lot of fun with it. The light show is great. The animations are great. Music's awesome. The layout's actually great, but there's just not enough to warrant a purchase. That's all. You have any ice over there, Drew? Yeah, I do got some ice for you, buddy. Thank you, buddy. There you go.
    8:00
    So anyways, we'll move on from that. That was Stern's big news for the week. Do we think we're going to see a summer release from them? Maybe July we're going to hear something? Or do you think they're going to wait? Beginning of August. Okay. That's what my guess is. So you think another month, month and a half before we hear anything? Okay. That's what I think. Okay. But you don't think that'll be too close to the Elvira? Because that's been kind of confirmed. That's October. For October? Yeah, maybe. I guess that makes sense. Two months. It'll ship. How about that? Okay. Maybe we get a release or a news release in the end of July. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. My guess is as good as yours. Well, their timeline has been pretty consistently every two to three months now. I mean, they've been kind of churning them out for the last couple of years. So we'll see what happens.
    8:52
    Ian just made a face when he drank some of this. What is that? Is that a different whiskey now? It's Indian Single Malt Whiskey.
    9:01
    This is another one of the Whiskey of the Months. It's super smoky, which is fucking up my 7-Up, man.
    9:07
    It's like super smoky. Smoky 7-Up. What was I thinking? I should have smelled it first. Whatever. All right. What do we got? God damn it. But bigger news than Stern today. I'm lying. Son of a bitch. JJP kind of overshadowed the entire pinball world today because... Jack was running around on the lawn, the front lawn. He was, with his top hat and his cane, because... He's got a little bit of imagination. I forget the song. I got a golden ticket. That's all I know.
    9:40
    He's got a golden ticket. Something, something. He's got a golden twinkle in his eye. There you go. Oh, the low baritone. No, the Wonkas are shipping. So a big R&L carrier semi went rolling out of JJP. Was that today or was that yesterday?
    10:01
    You shared it to me today, so I don't know. Yeah, I don't know when that was. Yeah, sometime in the last 24 hours, a big truck rolled out of JJP. It's gone. And the first Wonkas, which we think are standards, right? because that's what they said, I think. Yes, because they're going out to distributors. Yeah. Ain't nobody getting this at their home yet. No, sure, absolutely. But I'm saying it was probably all standards is my guess.
    10:24
    Guaranteed. Yep. So anyways, the first shipment went out. Jack did pretty good on his promise, I would say. Yeah, he said he needed them out before July 4th. Before summer. July 4th was the date. Guess what? July 4th isn't here yet, so that's pretty good. Good on you, Jack. You did it.
    10:42
    All right. So that's awesome. You know, Ian and I have kind of wavered a little bit. Are we getting Wonka? Are we not getting Wonka? I know we were all totally in. You know, then we're kind of like, well, now it's expensive. I have a life. Yeah. You know, this thing. And then the hype kind of died down. But after seeing that Chuck today, we're talking again, and we're like, we want Wonka. I want a Wonka down here, man. I do. I don't know how I'm going to do it yet, though. You're still working out there. Where the fuck am I going to get $10,000 from? I know. You know what? I've even conceded a little bit, and I might go standard.
    11:21
    I want the ball lock. I want everything. If I'm going to get it, I want to get it all. Sorry, I just do. If I'm going to go in debt, let's do it with a three ball lock. Okay. But, you know, I'm starting to get practical, okay? The hype has died down. You're not getting practical. You're getting another pinball machine. Well, I am. We'll talk about that later. not well i can't keep getting pinball machines if i keep buying ten thousand dollar pinball machines so um you know the question is are you getting two thousand dollars in value to have that ball lock yeah the wonkavator is awesome but i don't know if it's two thousand dollars awesome i get it i get people say oh you got a shaker motor and this and that i can add a shaker motor for a hundred bucks you know which i would do i can add uh you know invisiglass or you know whatever for a couple hundred bucks.
    12:12
    I'm still up in the air. You know what I'm really going to do? I'm going to talk to some of the distributors I know. I'm going to wait for that open box.
    12:19
    Hey, we used this at a show or something. I'll get my hands on a slightly used Wonka and save myself the money, I think. But either way Wonka coming home It coming home Kathleen Yeah Hey she gave me the go She excited about it I talked to some other friends of ours that want to come over and play it I mean it right it almost a done deal for me I just got to decide what I want to do and and you know move some stuff around but you know I have the money set aside for it so it's fine I just two thousand dollars though for a physical ball lock I don't know it's just it just seems like a lot that's all I just need to sell nine things worth $1,000. Looking around here, I'm like, well. You got a few, for sure. That's about $100. Yeah.
    13:05
    Can I sell 90 of these things? Right. I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but we'll figure it out. We got time. We do. They're going to be shipping now, and shit, Waz is still on the line.
    13:22
    Dialed In is still on the line. I mean, you know, they're going to be making Wonkas, I think, for a while.
    13:28
    And much like the other ones, other than Pirates, because that is a little different story, but you're going to be able to find used Wonkas within a month or two. We see it all the time. Yeah. People buy these games, and then for whatever reason, they want something else. So there you go. We'll see what happens.
    13:48
    All right, so American Pinball, tell us about their open house. saw their open house stuff this on facebook this uh this weekend when was it this was this was it the whole weekend or i think i don't know i have no idea all right we'll say it was a whole weekend whole weekend but they had brats they had beer they had october fest to play i really want a brat right now do you have brats going i don't have them going i got frozen though we can we can make some brats i always have brats just in case the shit goes down in case in case drew has a few whiskeys and he says hey ann do you have any brats if shit goes down i can get you some brats don't worry don't worry we have a nice little brat place just down the street and for those that are outside the midwest the brat is a sausage type meat it's a sausage you know it's a bratwurst yeah no it's german we're german here so no it's some parts of the united states they literally don't know what a brat is i know i have family all over the place when they come over and we have brats they're like What the fuck's a bra? Sure, sure. And they're like, oh, you mean a sausage. I'm like, I guess. Like our few Australian friends that are listening right now, do you think they're like, what are you guys talking about? Yeah, I'm still not even quite sure what Vegemite is. So, you know. Yeah, that's true. It goes back and forth. That's true. I don't even think they know what Vegemite is, to be honest. No, no. I heard Marty and Ryan C. talk about it, and it's like some protein paste or something. Yeah. I don't know. It's island food. Yeah, island food.
    15:15
    They need to get their calories in. So they had an open house, and they had a chocolate roll-out, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. They had an open house. It was huge. It was a fucking huge facility, man. The place was monstrous. Do you think it's bigger than JJP's? I mean, we don't really know. I've never been. I've never been to any of these places. So hopefully we can get on a factory tour train here soon and go to some of these factories. I'd love to do that. But I have no idea where to compare it. But it looked monstrous. So I'm hoping, my goal is, you know, they, or I hope their goal is to fill that fucker all the way up. and they already need a new facility. You know what I'm saying? Sure. I don't want them to grow that much. Well, the rumors keep popping up about them doing some sort of contract manufacturing and them making some games for someone else. I mean, they have been pretty good at manufacturing. They need to double their team. They need two teams. They need two teams to design pinball machines. Because unlike some of the other companies, they seem to have manufacturing down. Yeah, they seem to be all right with that. But I want them to have two teams so they can be competitive against each other. I want them to run ideas. I want them to, hey, man, check this out. Does this shoot all right? You know, and go back and forth. Do you think we'll ever see a point when American Pinball is making two games at once? I mean, they have multiple lines there. Well, are you talking contract and theirs? Anything. Sure. Just, you know. I could see it. Because right now it seems like they're just like, it was all Houdini. Now it's all Oktoberfest. You know, if they want to succeed, they're probably going to need to keep pumping out more games. Yeah, Kaneda said something about he had a good idea. It was very eloquently put, Kaneda. But he basically said, could you see something in the next five to ten years where some of these smaller companies merge? So like a spooky American pinball, you know, and Charlie and his team go over there and they work out. They're the second team, you know. Yep. It's very interesting to think about. It is, and depending on the scales and the economies and everything else, they may have to, but I think right now Charlie's – and we'll talk about Charlie in a little bit, but I think they're doing pretty well for themselves. He's doing what he wants to do. He has no boss, so there you go. Yep. Sorry, shot that one down quick. All right, what else we got, Drew? Well, moving right on. That's a good segue to Spooky. So Spooky Pinball is cranking out Alice Cooper's. uh they got the first uh i want to say first like hundred out the door and they're they're making several a week and they're getting them out and um you know no real new news but they released some new code we love you charlie good job man i think i think june 13th or 14 somewhere around there they um they released new code yeah we didn't talk about it And so one thing I saw on the coach I thought was really neat.
    18:07
    So if the ball hops from the habit trail into the out lane, it knows that and it gives you a ball save. How cool is that? Yeah, I need that. Well, no, those air balls that you can't do anything about and they pop over, you know, it's like that wasn't your fault. That was just the way that, you know, it happens. it gives you a ball save i'm like that's really cool it's very cool i like it i like it charlie and and they added uh some co-op modes hey man we could always use those yes so now when you're battling the monsters you're doing it together you're doing it together yeah so you know when you have these people say oh i'm no good at pinball i don't want to play with you you play this game all the time he's looking right at me i am you say hey let's battle the monsters together let's do this so it's just it's just kind of cool it's they're adding something that you know should have been done years ago and yeah spooky yeah so good job charlie and team and i love me some alice cooper man that's a fucking cool game it is a cool game it's so cool in fact how cool is it drew well uh my hobbit has been giving me consistent issues and it got worse this weekend we had my son's graduation party and the day of the party the hobbit started shooting out a ball every time it didn't have a ball in the shooter lane another ball came out and it was just awful and i've been dealing with tech support which they've been very responsive but we still can't figure out the problem so i made the decision to put it up for trade last week trade bait i should say on pin side and i got a message right away from the distributor that got it got that game for me in the first place and he uh agreed to get me a brand new alice cooper nightmare castle for the hobbit fuck yeah so i do it yeah we were going back and forth and uh ian uh i trolled ian a little bit because some other trade baits i got were a star wars le and ian almost lost his fucking shit yep yep you ain't chained no jjp in for some shit stern No way. I stand behind it. I don't think Star Wars is that great of a game. And Star Wars is fine. It is what it is. It's fine, but it ain't no Hobbit. No. So anyways, I'm all in. Ryan Kuiper was doing math on his fucking hands and feet. He's like, trade value, though, guys. Think of the trade value, the resale. I don't care. The resale value. I want fun pinball. I was like, no, fuck that. Did you play that game? That game's awesome. So I wish Kuiper was here, man. I'd like to go round for round on them. Yes. We'll go tit for tat. Anyways. You hear me, Ryan? I'm gunning for you. Today, which is Monday when we record, Alice Cooper is officially ordered with the scary blue powder coat armor, which I'm pretty excited about. There's your resale value. Yeah, there you go. So I'm number 157. So I should be getting it, they said, roughly in about a month or so. and uh i'll update you guys when i get it but uh i got this beautiful new alice cooper coming to my house i think it's gonna be great oh yeah so ian's excited dude i will be there to play i i got none of this oh we just got it in my house yes i gotta go to work now drew no see we're playing that here's what's interesting we're breaking that bitch in i got iron maiden ian really liked that so he sat and played with me when i got metallica ian goes played like one thing i went over there Yeah, I don't even think he made it. I set it up myself, and he's just like, okay, cool, you got Metallica. Then I get Hobbit, same thing. He helps me set it up. He goes, eh, okay. No, you had to go. We had to go. Well, whatever. Something happened. You were kicking us out. But whatever the case is, Ian's really excited about this one, and he's going to come over. I need to put some hours on this thing. I'm talking hours, not party. Oh, no.
    22:03
    We're going to have to do a slumber party. We're going to do a slumber party, and we're going to stream it. We already decided that. I don't know if Kuiper's in or not. He's in.
    22:14
    Kuiper, are you listening? You're in. We're streaming, bitch. We need all your streaming equipment and your technical know-how. You're coming over. And you can come too. Yeah.
    22:25
    Oh, I love you, Ryan. You're good shit. So anyways, I'm really excited. You guys can tell I'm getting kind of smiley and giddy right now because, yeah, a couple of whiskeys in. But, no, I'm really excited about it.
    22:35
    I'm fucking pumped. Can't wait for that thing to come into the house. I mean, potentially you will have your three-pin lineup being Alice Cooper, Nightmare Castle, Simpsons Pinball Party, and Willy Wonka. Now that's a fucking one, two, three. Yep, that is a good punch. It really is. I think you're right. A little bit of blood rushed to my penis, man. That's good stuff. Good lineup. All right, man. What else we got on that list? That's it, man, for the manufacturers. I mean, like I said, there wasn't a whole lot going on this week other than the Wonka thing. but um we're doing this yeah we're doing that the thing that he's shaking right now is a piece of paper you hear that kids and now he's gonna tell you exactly what's on that piece of paper this shit's real here we go this is so stupid no i'm i'm excited about this one oh yeah here we go it's fun man so what are we doing here we're gonna do a pat versus steve pat lawler versus steve richie showdown downtown brawl town of the ages that's right that's the uh pat versus steve showdown downtown brawl town of the ages so how does this how does this one work so this is a little tricky we tried it we had a good idea but both guys took some time off we wanted to go tit for tat year for year and we would go with game versus game they both see who had the better game because they both been around making games for about 30 years but they both had breaks in there yeah i mean Lawler really was doing it regularly in the 90s. Yeah. Steve Ritchie a little earlier. And the early 2000s. We couldn't count Steve Ritchie's earlier stuff because we wanted to go year for year because the technology factor. Right? And then there was a time where Steve Ritchie, after Williams, didn't do a lot. So we had to get rid of some of Pat's games as well. So we're just going year for year. We tried to match them up as close as possible. We tried. And we're trying to keep it – I know it's not 100%. You know what I'm saying? All of these games are pretty much fan favorites. Right. That's true. So, like, every game on this list is – there's people out there that say, wow, that's a great game. Right. I guess what I'm saying is, you know, Jersey Jack puts more in their games. So, therefore, he has a clear advantage. Sure. So, how this is going to work is we're going to run down this list. We're going to start from – to 2019, baby. So from 1990 we going to say okay this was Steve Ritchie game this was Pat Lawler game and Ian and I are going to decide you know which game do we like better Skipping 96 through 2001, because that was when Ritchie was taking a break. No Safecracker, no Good Gophers, no Monopoly. So those got eliminated. And once again, those are good games, but it's just the years didn't match up. And for Richie, when Pat Lawler was... His hiatus. Yeah, when he had his little issue, or not issue, but he wasn't playing or designing games from 08 to 17, we got some golden ticket items from Richie now. No pun intended. We got ACDC, Game of Thrones, and of course Star Trek, one of our favorites. So unfortunately, we had to eliminate those as well. So we're just going year for year, game to game. me and you we figure out which one is the better game we come to a consensus today are we coming to a consensus or we each have to choose our favorite that we're in the consensus okay figure this out okay me and you we're gonna figure this out we disagree then we get then we get zero points is that how that maybe works we'll call it a wash okay okay so we'll call ryan on vacation so on a friend so once we once we come up with a consensus that um that designer gets one point for that year then fair enough fair enough let's do it okay let's do it because at the end of the day no one's keeping score except us and nobody gives a shit except us and maybe a couple guys from canada yeah pat first steve showdown downtown brawl town okay what year are we in buddy we're going to start with 1990 1990 how old were you in 1990 and oh i was 11 you can't do math for are you kidding me ladies and gentlemen math is not ian strong suit i might have to tally up these votes i was nine as well jesus christ fuck you jesus christ it was quick math i didn't uh yeah just a couple years quick and dirty i was 28 oh my god this is gonna be terrible go ahead You're such a dick. All right. Pat Lawler released the classic Whirlwind, and Steve Ritchie released the game Roller Games. Oh.
    27:25
    Do we even have to do this one? Whirlwind versus Roller Games? Whirlwind got 8.1 on pin side, and Roller Games is at a 7.5. I have not had a lot of games on Roller Games, but I have had a few shitty games on Whirlwind. I mean, this one's pretty easy. I mean, Whirlwind takes it. I'm thinking like Marty really likes roller games, though, from head to head. No, once again, there's people with some love for roller games. I'm just saying that Whirlwind is truly a classic. You know, when you talk about 90s pins, that's one of them. All right, Whirlwind it is. I agree with you, buddy. I just want to be devil's advocate here. Yeah, no, that's fine. That's what we're here for. All right. Because, once again, it's our show. We can do whatever the fuck we want. So also in 1990, Pat Lawler released Funhaus, and Steve Ritchie released Terminator 2. Now this one's interesting. Terminator 2 was in 91, so that was as close as we can get. That's fine. So Terminator 2, for a lot of people, was a game that got them into pinball. That's true. Wide body. It was easy to learn, hard to master, one of those games, because the rule set isn't incredibly deep. but you know it's a great license yeah great license great layout um the the t1000 head on there i mean it's very cool game so the pin side ratings 8.2 for funhouse can we just do this 7.7 can we just replace rudy this is sacrilege now guys replace rudy with the t1000 how cool would that some arnold in there oh my god that would be so awesome actually that might be a cool mod well people love funhouse i don't care for funhouse i'd rather go i love funhouse i'm going funhouse on this one i'm going to too so that's a wash okay we're gonna have to wash that one damn it all right here we go 1992 adam's family versus 1992's the getaway by steve richie see this another interesting one and his family one of the most popular pins of all time 8.5 on pinside yeah eight on uh pinside for the getaway um but getaway very close you know and they're such different games too because adam's family isn't quite as flowy and isn't you know it's got the the four flippers and you know getaway is just fast and furious and you know you're just the the loop which is you know um whoo and i'm not a huge fan of adam's family i i appreciate it i'm gonna have to go adam's family i'm gonna have to go lala with that one though yeah i would too i just think 20 000 made how do you yeah how do you fucking argue with it right it's hard you know getaway is good but yeah we love you getaway yeah all right now in the year of 1993 how old are you drew 12. I can do math.
    30:22
    So 1993, Twilight Zone, 8.7 on Pinside, versus in 1993, Star Trek The Next Generation, 8.5. I've had some time on both these games. I have as well. I like both the games. I think, once again, I just have to go to Pat Lawler for this one. I mean, Star Trek is a good shooter. It's a good game. but Twilight Zone is just too much of a classic to overcome.
    30:54
    This one's a lot closer for me. I appreciate Star Trek's shooting. I don't think Twilight Zone shoots as well. No, it doesn't. And it's a little bit more floaty because it's a wide body. Yep. But there's so much more in it, and just all those magnets, and so cool. You swayed me. Twilight Zone, I guess. I said magnets. You had me at mag. All right. In 1994, we had Roadshow by Pat Lawler, 7.9. And in 1995, we had No Fear by Steve Ritchie, 7.4 on Pinside. No Fear. Never played No Fear. That's a problem. I haven't either.
    31:38
    But No Fear is one of those really fast games. You know, Steve Ritchie kind of trademark. What was the other one again?
    31:50
    Roadshow. You know, Roadshow has, you know, basically they're trying to capitalize again on, like, the Rudy heads. There's two of them. What are their names again? Red and Ted. Ted and Red. See, I know stuff. I hate that you know that.
    32:08
    I'm just going to go with Pinside, 7.9 to Roadshow to 7.4, no fear. I don't have a barometer on this one. Well, Roadshow always does take the win on that one, so we'll give it to him. To be honest, I haven't played Roadshow. I just know of it.
    32:24
    Like I said, I'm a big Funhaus fan. All right, fast forward to the year of 2002 where Pat Lawler released Roller Coaster Tycoon. Okay. Steve Ritchie in 2003 released Terminator 3, which was a 7.5. Roller Coaster Tycoon was a 7.1.
    32:44
    I'm going to go Terminator 3. Roller Coaster Tycoon might be one of the greatest, like, hey, this needs to be a pinball theme of all time. You know what I mean? Like, it's a roller coaster, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you got the pinball. It just lends itself so well to it.
    33:03
    But once again, the Terminator is so big and such a huge license. I like Terminator 3. That's a fun game. I play a shit ton of that on the emulator. But, yeah. Okay. Terminator it is. I haven't spent a lot of time on it. Hey, Steve Ritchie's got one. Boom. Is that the first one he got? Yeah. Sorry, Steve. Oh, man. Okay. All right. I thought he would have had more by now. 2004, Ripley's Believe It or Not versus 2004's Elvis by Steve Ritchie. Ripley's was a Pat Lawler game. I like Ripley's. 7.9 on Pinside, and Elvis has a 7.5. And to be fair, I haven't played Elvis. I have not either, but I love Ripley's. I played it a lot on the app. Yeah, and I got a chance to play Ripley's at Eric Pripke's house.
    33:49
    Shout out to Eric. A few weeks back. Way to go, Eric. Is it as cool as the app? Because the app was awesome. It was loaded. It is. Pinball arcade app. It gets a lot of hate, and I don't know why. It's a packed Stern game, and it's cool. I think it's cool. I have a fondness for Ripley's just in general because I used to be the one in the Wisconsin Dells all the time. Oh, yeah, that's right. No, there's a ton in there. It's fun to shoot. That's a Ripley's win. And I beat Eric on his own game, so that was kind of cool. Ooh, shout out. All right, 2005, NASCAR, 7.3 on Pinside from Pat Lawler, versus the 2006 World Poker Tour, 7.3. Now, World Poker Tour, is that the one where the code isn't finished? i'm thinking wheel of fortune was never finished yes okay i don't think world poker tour i think that was the underrated game that made shivers yeah yep yep that's the broken one in ryan kuyper's basement yeah yeah we never get to play it because it's not working nascar i don't have much of a gauge on and world poker tour i have not much of a gauge we didn't really think this through did we and unfortunately the pin side numbers are both the same 7.3 each so what's a better theme for pinball not in general but for pinball i like what it looked like in ryan's basement world poker tour i'd go that around okay world poker tour nice nice all right 2007 family guy from pat lawler 7.9 versus steve richie spider-man 8.4 on pin side i will tell you right now steve richie spider-man is a much better game than agreed you know what and i love both those themes and i've played both those games and And I wish Family Guy was better. I don't know what it is about that game, but it just kind of falls flat for me. Me too. Spider-Man is just fun. It's flowy. I like it. I don't care if the rule set's a little wonky, I guess is the word. Sure, sure, sure. But cool game. Ready. Next round. Mm-hmm. 2008, CSI 7.2 versus 24. two shows that nobody gives a shit about in 2009 yeah 2009 Steve Ritchie released 24 6.9 the way you and Eric were talking about CSI I'm into it I like everything quirky about it even the alternative back glass with the hot chick a skull with ball locks yep you had me at balls to be fair I haven't played 24 but yeah CSI I think is a little underrated. I think it's kind of neat.
    36:53
    2017. 17. Wow, we're moving right along here. Yeah, we're almost done. Sweet. Awesome. We're almost at 37 minutes, though, so this is good.
    37:03
    2017, we had dialed in at 8.5 on Pinside, which we streamed last Thursday. Where were you fuckers, by the way? Yeah, all 300 of you should have been there. Yeah. Hello. We told you we were going to be there last week. It's all right. We were chatting with like five or six guys. They were all nice. It was cool.
    37:21
    Versus 2017 Star Wars by Steve Ritchie, 8.2 on Pinside. This one, not a contest for me. It's pretty simple. It would be dialed in being the better game. Sadly, yes. Theme you couldn get any more different right Star Wars is the ultimate theme It the ultimate We a a couple star wars fanboys guys i don know well maybe that makes the pain even more star wars should have been the best pinball machine ever made ever made at the end was steve richie designing oh my god fucking licensors i know they're i think was rife with problems from the beginning because probably because of disney i mean it's just it just is what it is and Fucking toppers are nowhere to be seen either. That art. And you know what? I don't even want to talk about it. You know what the art looks like? What? It looks like the Indiana Jones Stern art. It does. It's identical. It does. It's just like pretty little lines, a bright background, and then clip art faces all over it. To be honest, I don't really care because for me it's not that... Yeah, if the game was good. Like it was fun to shoot. I like... And it's fun to shoot. It's just not – It's missing something. Well, I think Marty said it best over at Head to Head Pinball Podcast. He talked about how the rule set is a stop-and-go rule set, but the game is a richy, flowy shot layout. Interesting. Yeah. So you're shooting, and it's fast and everything, but all of a sudden you've got to shoot three TIE fighters. You know what? You're like, you know what? That is interesting. That sucks because you just want to fucking burn rubber on that game. You do, and when I own more pins at once and I quit swapping them out so much, I will own that game. Yeah. Because I do enjoy shooting it. I want to get further and I want to progress. I have fun when I play it, but if I'm only going to have one pin or two pins or three pins, I need more. Right. So that's where I'm at with it. And I shit on it a lot, but I think last week I was talking about I'd rather have Star Trek than Star Wars. Yeah, that's kind of true because Star Trek I really like a lot, but I hate the freaking theme.
    39:45
    So anyways, but yeah, I will own a Star Wars at some point. So dial in for the win. Dial in. And the last one. We're just going to do it because we played Willy Wonka. Yeah. We're a little bit of an authority here, right? I'm a Willy Wonka authority. All right. 2019, Willy Wonka versus Stern's Sword of Rage. And we both played these for the first time at MGC. Sword of Rage is getting tossed off the roof, and Willy Wonka's coming home. Coming home, baby, Willy Wonka. I'm feeling like Pat Lawler won this, by the way. Yeah, it wasn't very close. But to be fair to Steve Ritchie, I mean, there were some of those classic ACDC game with Thrones and Star Trek. Those are three of my favorite Ritchie games. And by the way, yeah, I'm sure if you would have put those three games up against almost any Lawler game except for Dialed In. And Wonka. I don't know. Actually, say those three games again. ACDC, Game of Thrones, and Star Trek. I'd rather have Wonka overall. I'd rather have Wonka. And Dialed In. But some of those other games. Yeah, it kicks CSI's ass, Ripley's ass, Roadshow's ass, Twilight Zone's ass. Adam's Family, 20,000 is 20,000. Whirlwind, yeah, it'd probably kick Whirlwind's ass too. I like those games. So it is what it is. I think it is what it is. Yeah. We went year for year, and this is what had happened. Yeah. And we talked about it. You know, some of the stuff like Star Wars and, you know, now Black Knight, you know, it was Stern's first unlicensed game in a while. Yeah. And, you know, they're just trying to sell units and make some money, which I don't begrudge them for it. And so, you know, I'm sure he was hamstrung on some of that stuff too. It's not Steve Richard. No. Right. He wanted to put, you know, he's like, oh, let's do another three spinners and let's put the upper play field on the pro. And Gary Stern's like, we can't do it. To be fair, we love both of these guys, obviously. Oh, once again. Obviously. They're legends. You give me a Star Trek in my house and an ACDC in my house, I'm playing them. I'm loving them. You know, so, yeah, it's tough.
    41:57
    So, yeah, that was eight versus three. So, wait. Eight versus three. You would have picked ACDC over Monopoly by Palo Alto? Yeah, I would have. Hey, Monopoly's fun. It is a fun game. I'm just saying, year for year, you know, when they were going up against each other, I mean, let's be fair. These are the years they went up against each other. Yep. This is the outcome. Yep. You know, Pat edged them out a few times. And you know what? No fear. Every time I hear about that game, I'm always just like, what a weird pinball theme. Right. It was like fucking a t-shirt, right? It was like the t-shirt brand. Yeah, it's a brand. Yeah. No fear. You know, it's like extreme sports, which I get. Yeah. But I'm just like. That was a big thing when we were in high school, right? Middle school. Yeah. Middle school. But I'm just like, who came into George Gomez's office and said. Was that Gomez at the time? I don't know. 95? No, probably not. He was at Williams. This is a Williams game, isn't it? is it yeah let's look it back let's look back hold on fact check fact check that was a williams game okay um but yeah who who maybe it was gomez then we don't know well he was just a designer he was yeah but who goes in the office says no fear no the office goes we're making a no fear game who's in richie you're up next so get it we got a skull and a bunch of ramps where she was like what the fuck is no fear it's like hey it's kind of like supreme okay supreme you're up ready go we're gonna make a shit ton of money we're just gonna copy spider-man's name and call it good oh shit all right you know what we'll never do this again by the way this is stupid i hope you guys enjoyed it it was kind of fun this was it's kind of a trip down memory lane yeah you know it didn't go very long it doesn't really matter who won because they're all fucking great games in there they are great yeah they really are all right there was both when there was only three or four games in there that i'm like yeah i wouldn't i will give steve richie a participation medal thanks steve you get a trophy you get a trophy you get a trophy you get a trophy all the kids get a trophy we love everyone no worries oh we're at 44 minutes so mailbag mailbag mailbag yep we should do some mailbag guys we didn't do mailbag last week when we were on our hiatus we had a lot of very nice friendly emails that said hey we miss you drew and ian could you guys come to our bar mitzvah all sorts of good stuff so drew take it away sure the first one is from our friend jeff lagrange uh jeff is a guy that is friends of a friend of my uh wife and friend of a friend to my wife he he lives here in the milwaukee area he owns seven or ten games he's been a pinball aficionado for a long time um he's a little older than us good good dude we've met him a couple times in person we're hoping uh he's he's invited us over to play some games we we really want to do that so jeff if you're listening we want to come over and play your game we're in bro so he just says hey it's jeff lagrange just wanted to let you know that i wasn't much of a podcast guy because I don't have a lot of downtime, but when I decided I wanted to listen to a pinball podcast, yours was the one that first came to mind. You haven't let me down. At times, I'm laughing my ass off, and at other times, I'm rubbing my chin thinking about some of the heavy info you're dropping on us, which that's very nice, Jeff. I don't know that we have insightful stuff, but Jeff, you're awesome. As of yesterday, I'm finally caught up through episode 12, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next episode. Jeff, thank you so much for that. Awesome email, man. That feels good. It really does. Chicken soup for the soul, brother. Jeff, I'm going to say this again. We need to get together and play some pinball. We have been trying for literally a couple of months now because I met this guy several months ago. And, you know, he's got kids and I got kids. You know, it's just one of those things. But, Jeff, we want to hang out. We want to play games. We want to come to your basement and see what you got. Come on our podcast. Yes. Fuck it. We will gladly have you on. Bring me on. We're going to chill there. It'll be great. And then we got Zen Bone here. His name is Martin. hello poor men just wanted to say i'm digging the show i love that i am moving up to appleton which is uh outside of green bay for anyone who's not in wisconsin so about uh two hours from us yeah hour and a half two hours with a few machines woe nelly austin powers and a couple arcades yeah cool that'd be kind of fun right next year from florida so he lives in florida now hope to become your first drunken show guest keep on keeping on brothers nice fan listener number 15 oh we got one So for those who don't know, the big joke was we had the original 14 people that listened to us. Yeah, I think our first time we got to look at our stats, it said 14. Yeah, like our first episode, yeah, we had like 14 people. First episode, like at two hours in, we had 14. And we were joking about the original 14. So Martin, from now on, you will officially be number 15. And I love that. And yes, when you come up to Appleton, you let us know. We will come play Wonelly and Austin Powers. so why not right what the fuck yeah because you know what this is what we do on the show we don't know what we do we just did a pat lawler steve richie showdown that meant nothing about nothing jesus it meant a lot they both got trophies fuck off drew participation trophies so anyways no seriously guys thanks for your uh was that it on the emails yeah if anyone else wants to email in it's poor man's pinball at gmail.com uh we like all of our fans we think you guys are all great We really appreciate you guys listening.
    47:33
    I don't know. What else do we have? It's awesome, man. I love it. It's great. No, we're good, man. We should wrap her up. Yeah, we did good this week. Cue the music.
    47:43
    Oh, not me. You got actual music? You know it. But yeah, what did you guys think of the Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawler showdown? Email us at poormanspinball at gmail.com. poor man's pinball at gmail.com so make sure that s is in there poor man's pinball at gmail.com we're not men we're mans poor man's we are your pinball and like us on facebook poor man's pinball podcast we're having all sorts of fun we were doing a bunch of polls last week we learned a lot about our listeners Alice Cooper's coming home baby Yeah, we did the Alice Cooper versus Hobbit. Yeah, everyone picked Alice Cooper on that one. It was 80-20, I think. Yeah. And what was the other poll? I can't remember now. We talked about... Fuck. All right, I don't remember either. But if you guys have ideas for stuff you want us to do on the show, because we're not that creative, and we're obviously after today's showdown. We made this shit up now. Literally five minutes ago. Yes. So if you guys have any ideas, shoot it to us, man. we'll entertain them. Yeah, absolutely. If you want to come in, call on the show. We can entertain that stuff too. Yeah, we'll... We're always looking for good guests. People that love pinball, we don't need... We're not fancy people. Yeah, we definitely don't need Steve Rich yet. No. He'd be pissed.
    49:12
    We just want people that want to talk about pinball. Yeah, we're going to have a bunch of people. We'll have some more guys. We have a few guys in the... Yeah, in the pipeline. We're trying to get dates and all that good stuff. But we're working on it, guys. We'll get some interviews in here. We'll get some guests. Yep. We actually got a couple of special things planned for about a month from now that we're going to leave that to be a little... Teaser, baby. Teaser. Teaser, baby. All right. Well, take it easy from the poor man.
    49:42
    And of course, my wife, Laura, who's done the intro. She loves everyone. She does. So thank you very much for listening. Thanks, guys. Peace.
    49:52
    Outro Music