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Ep 65: This Isn't A Good Sign from Deeproot

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 4m·analyzed·Aug 6, 2021
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Steve Ritchie joins JJP; Deep Root Pinball appears to be imploding amid deleted social media and vague legal troubles.

Summary

Josh Roop and Scott Larson discuss Steve Ritchie's confirmed move from Stern to Jersey Jack Pinball, speculate on Stern's design pipeline and potential new hires, analyze Lyman Sheets' possible transition to contract work, and express grave concerns about Deep Root Pinball's viability after Robert Mueller deletes the company's Facebook page and posts a vague legal update citing undisclosed lawsuits and settlement negotiations.

Key Claims

  • Steve Ritchie has moved from Stern Pinball to Jersey Jack Pinball

    high confidence · Josh and Scott confirmed this was previously rumored and they had 2% accuracy on it. Video evidence of Steve arriving at JJP was mentioned.

  • Steve Ritchie had a whitewood in progress at Stern that was near completion as of May 2024

    high confidence · Josh references Steve's interview from May stating 'the whitewood's done. It's flipping.'

  • Deep Root Pinball's founder Robert Mueller has deleted the company Facebook page and gone dark on personal Facebook

    high confidence · Listeners confirmed Deep Root Pinball Facebook page shows deletion message; Mueller's personal account also disappeared. Verified by checking the page in real-time during recording.

  • Deep Root Pinball is facing a legal matter that arose approximately one month before their latest update

    high confidence · Official letter from Robert Mueller to Raza customers states 'A legal matter affecting Raza rose around a month ago that we did not expect.'

  • Only three Raza customers took the refund offer Deep Root extended

    high confidence · Robert Mueller's customer letter states refund offer was taken by '(three)' customers and is no longer available.

  • Stern appears to be shifting toward younger designers (Raymond Davidson, Tim Sexton, Keith Owen) rather than seniority

    medium confidence · Josh speculates that Stern is moving in a 'young direction' with fresh talent, with John Borg and George Gomez being the remaining senior designers.

  • Steve Ritchie is 71 years old

    high confidence · Josh states Steve confirmed this age during their May interview.

  • Pat Lawlor is 70 years old

    medium confidence · Josh looked this up and noted Pat Lawlor is one year older than Steve Ritchie.

  • Lyman Sheets may have transitioned to contract work rather than full-time employment at Stern

Notable Quotes

  • “Congratulate us that we are 2% correct. Yep. We nailed it. You guys doubted us, but we totally called it 2%.”

    Josh Roop @ early in episode — Self-deprecating humor about their previous rumor accuracy regarding Steve Ritchie's move; sets tone for analysis of industry insider knowledge.

  • “I tried to call him this week. His phone's not on.”

    Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Humorous reference to Steve Ritchie offering his phone number at end of May interview, suggesting Steve is avoiding contact or changed numbers post-move.

  • “He crashes and then for some reason the train keeps going and keep crashing like this is you go to a NASCAR race to see crashes, and this guy has a crash every lap.”

    Scott Larson @ late episode — Vivid metaphor summarizing Deep Root Pinball's pattern of excuses and failures; indicates extremely negative sentiment about the company's viability.

  • “The fact that he's again throwing chum in the water, that this lawsuit happened... It's like, oh, the check's in the mail. Oh, really? Oh, you know what? I'm printing the money.”

    Josh Roop @ late episode — Sarcastic criticism of Robert Mueller's pattern of excuses; compares Deep Root's delays to classic con artist deflections.

  • “Legitimately no one cares about Deep Root. They're never gonna sell a game. They're never going to produce a game.”

    Josh Roop @ late episode — Emphatic statement of lost confidence in Deep Root Pinball; reflects community sentiment shift.

  • “When someone goes dark on the internet, that means they have either left town already or they have completely jumped ship.”

    Scott Larson @ late episode — Interprets Deep Root/Mueller's deletion of social media as sign of company collapse or founder flight.

  • “There's not really – it's not that it's like – they are definitely competition, but they still talk. They still sit around the, you know, if they run into each other at lunch, it's not like they ignore each other.”

    Scott Larson — Reveals tight-knit nature of pinball design community; both Stern and JJP facilities are two blocks apart.

Entities

Steve RitchiepersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyPat LawlorpersonGeorge GomezpersonJohn Borgperson

Signals

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie confirmed departure from Stern Pinball to Jersey Jack Pinball after 16 years at Stern; major industry talent migration.

    high · Video evidence of Steve arriving at JJP; multiple references to confirmation; May interview showed evidence in retrospect (JJP branded clothing, bag).

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern Pinball has a whitewood in advanced development from Steve Ritchie that requires completion by remaining design team; raises questions about project handoff and final polish.

    high · Steve stated whitewood was 'flipping' as of May 1, 2024; Josh speculates George Gomez will oversee completion; raises concern about design continuity.

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball exhibiting multiple collapse indicators: deleted Facebook page, founder disappeared from social media, vague legal update, only 3 refund customers, multiple serial excuses for delays.

    high · Verified Facebook page deletion showing 'page is either broken or deleted'; Robert Mueller's personal Facebook also deleted; listener report; vague legal letter.

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Deep Root Pinball facing unspecified legal matter arising approximately one month before episode; legal counsel advised company to avoid public communication; settlement negotiations ongoing.

    high · Robert Mueller's customer letter states: 'A legal matter affecting Raza rose around a month ago that we did not expect. We were advised by counsel... to not send out any substantive communication.'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern Pinball shifting from senior designer-dominated model to younger talent focus; potential need for new hire to replace Steve Ritchie's 15-month design cycle contribution.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.193

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott who let's talk about our friends over uh flipping out would you do the honors absolutely so uh if you are have that itch for that new machine go ahead and check out zach and Nicole Mini at Flippin' Out Pinball. They've always been great to us and gotten a few machines and looking to get a few more. So if you have that void in your basement, go ahead and reach out to them and see what they can fill up. I know stock is limited, but if you have that pin that you really want that they're still making, they can certainly find out when it's being manufactured or that topper. Everybody loves toppers. So check out Zach and Nicole Mini at Flippin' Out Pinball. Sorry, I just got a note, and we'll talk about it. It's on our show notes, but I'm going to verify this while we're on here. Whoa. Okay, breaking news. Breaking news. Someone just messaged us over. Oh, boom. Well, let's also just talk about a few other friends of the podcast. Ray Day Pinball. If you want to find out how your pinball machine should be played, go ahead and check out Ray Day. he is unworldly about his ability to and he was number one i don't know if he's currently number one do you know if ray day is currently number one uh i don't know we'd have to look up on the ifp it's crazy well well we'll talk about that too see wait pulling it up pulling it up oh no he is number four but still uh number one our hearts we have peter anderson i i don't even know how that is he's okay he's an international player so we have uh peter anderson colin urban johannes and raymond so and uh then eric's phone so we uh we're seeing some shake-ups as uh the rankings are slowly uh winding out and aging out so awesome let's get it do you there's news and uh do we do we apologize first for the speculation i know no first off i want to confirm and congratulate us that we are 2% correct. Yep.
2:19
We, we had it, we nailed it. We, you guys doubted us, but no, we totally called it 2%. Boom. So you got, you guys thought that Steve was staying at Stern forever and no, Steve decided to pick up and move over to JJP. I, I don't get it. I still don't get it, Joshua. What's your take on this? My take is, I don't know. We talked with Steve back in May, and I decided to go back over that interview because maybe he had some information there that we missed.

medium confidence · Josh references The Pinball Show episode where Zach Sharpe and Dennis Creasel speculated Lyman is working on contract. Also notes Lyman's long absence from regular design rotation.

  • Current IFPA rankings have Peter Anderson at #1, Colin Urban #2, Johannes #3, and Raymond #4 (Ray Day)

    high confidence · Josh and Scott pulled up and verified IFPA rankings during recording, noting Ray Day dropped from #1 to #4.

    • @ mid-episode on designer relationships

  • “This guy is selling some multi-level marketing junk out of his basement that is going to cure cancer and take you to the moon.”

    Josh Roop @ late episode — Comparison of Deep Root's vague communications to MLM/scam tactics; reflects deep skepticism about legitimacy.

  • “I'm 2% right on everything so here we go.”

    Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Running joke establishing low confidence in their speculation; allows them to hedge predictions while maintaining credibility.

  • “This is definitely what happens when someone goes supernova.”

    Scott Larson @ late episode — Industry term for company collapse or founder burnout; interpreted as sign of serious trouble.

    • Lyman Sheets
    person
    Keith Owenperson
    Raymond Davidsonperson
    Tim Sextonperson
    Robert Muellerperson
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    Razagame
    Josh Roopperson
    Scott Larsonperson
    Zach Sharpeperson
    Peter Andersonperson
    Colin Urbanperson
    Ray Dayperson
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastmedia
    The Pinball Showmedia
    Deadpoolgame
    Cactus Canyongame

    medium · Josh notes Stern has 'gone in a young direction' with Raymond Davidson, Tim Sexton as primary new hires; discusses need to maintain ~15 month design cycle; George Gomez reported unavailable for full-time design load.

  • ?

    industry_signal: Pinball industry characterized by small interconnected designer community; Stern and JJP facilities two blocks apart; designers maintain collegial relationships despite competitive roles; common for designers to move between companies.

    high · Scott notes designers 'still talk' and 'get a beer together' despite competition; Josh notes most Stern workers have worked at JJP; describes industry as having 'lot of inbreeding.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Lyman Sheets potentially transitioning from full-time employment to contract-based work at Stern; may focus on boutique deep-dive projects rather than full production cycle.

    medium · Josh references The Pinball Show episode where Zach and Dennis speculated contract status; notes Lyman no longer in 'normal rotation'; hasn't released game since Elvira (2019); has worked on spike platform and other non-game projects.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: IFPA competitive rankings showing significant movement with Ray Day dropping from #1 to #4; Peter Anderson now at #1; indicates meta shifts in competitive play.

    high · Josh and Scott pulled up live IFPA rankings: Peter Anderson #1, Colin Urban #2, Johannes #3, Ray Day #4; Josh noted surprise at shift.

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community sentiment toward Deep Root Pinball has shifted from skeptical anticipation to active disbelief; hosts now openly mock company and founder as operating con-artist scheme.

    high · Josh: 'Legitimately no one cares about Deep Root. They're never gonna sell a game. They're never going to produce a game.' Compares to 'multi-level marketing junk' and classic con deflections; describes as 'farcical.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball's 18-month to 2-year release cycle may indicate intentional limited production strategy or capacity constraints; hiring Steve Ritchie raises questions about future acceleration.

    medium · Josh notes JJP 'only releasing games every like 18 months to two years' and speculates this means either expansion planned or Ritchie focused on mechanical tinkering rather than design acceleration.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Steve Ritchie's move to JJP potentially driven by desire to focus on mechanical design rather than pure game design; at Stern, complex mechanics were often removed from final games.

    medium · Josh reflects on May interview where Steve 'talked a lot about designing mechanical stuff' and mentioned 'crazy mechs at Stern that got taken out.' Speculates JJP offers 'good creative outlet' for mechanical focus.

  • ?

    machine_intel: Steve Ritchie's incomplete whitewood at Stern requires completion; expected release window spring 2022 to summer 2022; will likely be finished by George Gomez and/or new designer.

    medium · Josh states whitewood was 'flipping' as of May 1; predicts release 'spring of 2022 to summer of 2022'; speculates Gomez will oversee final polish; raises question of whether Stern will announce new designer before release.

    • 2:59
    Well, he had that JJP bag over his shoulder, which should have been a dead giveaway, right? It should have been, and the JJP swag with the T-shirt on, too. Wearing the hat and the shades. and the JJP mask. So, no, I just... Go back and listen to the interview if you want, but I felt like he talked a lot about that he designs more mechanical stuff for pinball machines now, even though he still does design pinball. And I got thinking about that because we talked about one of the reasons that going to JJP doesn't make sense is because they would have to either ramp up production or bring Steve in at some other capacity. And Steve talked about it on the interview a lot, that he loves to design mechanical things. And at Stern, it kind of hinders him there because he talks about these crazy mechs that he was trying to create at Stern, and oftentimes they got taken out of the game.
    3:52
    And so maybe this is a good creative outlet for him to do. I don't know. I've heard both ways that he jumped ship, essentially, left. And I've also heard that Stern asked him to retire. So I don't know exactly what the full story is there. Well, OK, is it one or is it really one or two? I mean, it could be a lot of things, right? Usually these things aren't one. It's not binary, right? Yeah. Like it's the two options would be J.J.P. came and dumped a briefcase of money on his on his front door. And he decided that, well, I can't refuse that. Or it could be that Stern said, you know, I think we're done here. I'm sure it's probably a combination of many things, and neither is the only story. Yeah, I agree. The problem is you've got two sides of the story and the truth somewhere in the middle, right? Yeah. But, you know, okay, at the same time, okay, this is like the trades, right, in sports, okay?
    4:56
    How would you rank J.J.P., winner or loser? As far as a team, or what do you mean by winner or loser? Steve joining JJP.
    5:07
    I think it's a win. I think it brings seniority to the team. Oh, definitely seniority. I mean, Pat and Steve, they're pushing the AARP cards.
    5:21
    Steve said when we did the interview, he was 71 years old. Yeah. Holy cow. And I think he's younger than Pat. Yeah. He might be. I don't, they might be the exact same age. I think I looked this up today. I sent you over that picture of some like Irish fighter named Pat Lawler too. And I was like, what the heck is this? Oh, really? Wow.
    5:45
    Cause if you Google Pat Lawler, it does bring up the pinball, you know, the man who, yeah, he's 70 years old. So Pat Lawler is one year younger. Okay. All right. Okay. But come on. They are, they are, uh, they could have gone to, gone to high school together. Yeah, definitely. and I think it gives opportunity for Steve to spread his wings.
    6:40
    Steve, he can kind of create under, not pressure, but his timeline's a lot shorter than what I would assume Pat Lawler's is. So maybe they're bringing him to help Pat. I just don't know. There's a lot of speculation. I don't know. The theory is Pat has taken over JJP. Yeah. And he is running JJP at least from the inspirational head. And so this is why it really surprises me. And it could just be that old time rivals are friends again. and they both, at least since they, you know, they graduated at the same time and they've been in the industry at the same time, maybe they have a similar, you know, it's like going out with someone who has a different demographic. Sometimes it's hard to talk to them about anything because they don't have any sort of frame of reference. So having them both work together may have worked. And I guarantee the only way Steve is at JJP is because Pat wanted him there. You think? Yeah.
    7:51
    Unless it's the owner, like the owner who's collecting vintage game designers. Well, and it's funny because I really got thinking about this. You know, we've talked to multiple designers from all the companies out there, and they said there's not really – it's not that it's like – they are definitely competition, but they still talk. They still sit around the, you know, if they run into each other at lunch, it's not like they ignore each other. Right. They still go out and sometimes get a beer together. It's not. And literally they are like two blocks away from each other. I mean, both of those facilities are so close. Yeah.
    8:32
    So it's hard to, like I said, it's such a small, such a small industry. Think about it. Like most of the people that's working at Stern has worked with the people at JJP. Like really the right person that there's a lot of Eric, a lot of inbreeding. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, so, okay. So if you're Eric, um, are you excited or are you concerned? I'm excited. Yeah. I, I w I would agree with that because, uh, Eric is, he is, he still has, you know, at least 30 years of design in front of him. Oh yeah. And I, Kate legitimately, uh, How many games do you think Pat and Steve have in them? What left? And this is not their ability, but look at their timeline. They are still designing in a time when most people are retiring.
    9:31
    And if you look at this, this gets back to exactly why we said it was a confusing rumor, is because JJP, they are only releasing games every like 18 months to two years. They really aren't in a high production design philosophy.
    9:55
    So for them to change gears like this, this tells me that either they are planning on expanding and releasing more games, at least a game a year or a game every nine months or something like that. That's one option or two. Yeah. That maybe Steve is more interested in tinkering, but do you really think he's more interested in tinkering than designing at this point? Probably. I don't know. I mean, it's, it seems like most designers are more interested in, Hey, we're going to talk about the cool things and then let them figure it out. Like the, most of the guys who designed the mechs are mechanical engineers yeah so they didn't i don't know i it seems interesting to me but i would i agree with you in that this is a win for jjp okay next well what's funny too is like when we did the interview um at the end of the interview uh steve richie was like guys if you ever need anything or you ever have any questions don't go to the rumors come straight to me. Here's my phone number. Right. I tried to call him this week. His phone's not on. Well, I don't know if it was a stern phone. I don't think so. I like it. Yeah. No, that's funny. Yeah. Well, okay. But that's, you know, Steve's going to follow his own path. So I, I'm, I'm happy for him. It seems like something's going on that he, he felt it was, well, whatever the, in the cards, it was time to change. Okay. Yep. So for Stern, do you consider it a win or a loss or something else? Okay, here's the reality of Stern. This is what I really thought about this past week. They are going with new young blood. And granted, I guess Keith's not really young, but he's fresh to the design. He's a fresh designer. Yeah, and he's still, okay, Keith still has 20 years of design in front of him. Oh, easily. But think about it. What have the hires been? Raymond Davidson. I mean, that dude's younger than I am. You've got Tim Sexton. I think we're the same age as well. They're in their late 20s, early 30s. Tim's young, yeah. Yeah. And you just had Steve Ritchie teaching him how coding and stuff go well with design. I mean, there's a lot of fresh young blood down there. Really, what does seniority fall to? Probably Gomez or John Borg. Those are probably the two that have been working there the longest now. John Borg would be because he was originally with Data East and just kind of kept going. Yeah, just kept going. Which is weird to think because I don't feel like John's really that old, and nor is George. Well, okay. George isn't a spring chicken. True, but I guess compared to Steve Ritchie, they're all kind of young.
    12:51
    But I don't know. I feel like they're going in a young direction, which brings me to my next question. Okay. Steve's gone. We have Eddie, Keith Owen, John Borg. Those are our three designers right now. So who fills the gap? Because when we did the interview, Steve did say. He was working on a game, yeah. Yeah, May 1st. He was like, the Whitewood's done. It's flipping.
    13:18
    So obviously, either does Gomez take that over, or is there a new designer that we don't know about?
    13:25
    Okay. Is it possible that it's Gomez? Sure. Gomez has come in with when things have shaken up, and he has changed and tweaked things, right? Okay, we all know about the Deadpool story, and I totally agree with Stearns deciding to dump everything from before and start afresh. But they still had the license. It was still a theme that resonated with a younger crowd. And George was able to, I would say, design an excellent game.
    14:05
    So what do we do with this? Now, I would say that Steve Ritchie's game, the Whitewood, is probably pretty good.
    14:14
    Steve has, I would say, been a little mixed lately to the success of the games. but we all know that that he knows how to do a layout okay yeah and so if they have a lay a whitewood that they've been spending time on he's been doing it this has happened before in pinball in many times where the original designer leaves a contract thing and dennis nordman famously leaves before any of his games are are relatively released right yeah um but they still are able to tune it up and to release it into, and when I say tune it up, the whitewood is not, the reason why it's called the whitewood is because it is not the finished wood, right? They still have to move posts and tweak and so to dial in the geometry. So there is now, this could also be an opportunity to bring someone on. Is it possible that he's been collaborating with someone and that person takes it through? Or is it possible that Gomez does it? I would say someone who at least has experience with the game will finish it.
    15:27
    I agree. But they're going to have to fill the hole, right? Because the design machine at Stern is roughly every 15 months.
    15:37
    So which way are you leaning then? Are you leaning Gomez? Are you leaning someone that's maybe working at Stern that's stepping up as designer now or someone may fresh blood? I would say that George is going to be involved. I would say that it going to be a few people but I would say that George will give the blessing for the game because George has done it long enough in that he can take a whitewood and and and fix whatever lingering issues are with it and be able and be able to do it Now he won't take credit for it, but it could be like a joint effort between that. Now, I also don't think it's only going to be George. Yeah, I agree. I think they were, they will find someone to fill that, to take it that last 10 yards, but with Gomez as being the, the advisor. I agree. I honestly think I like your logic, but I really think there is a new designer at Stern that we don't know about yet. And they're just keeping things under wraps and we won't know till when Richie's game should release, which will be spring of 2022. to summer of 2022 is my guess on the window. Really? You don't think they'll announce a new designer? Because I do. I think they will. I think they'll announce it, but I don't think they'll do it before L1's games release. I highly doubt they'll do it before John Borg's. It gives you a small window.
    17:09
    Yeah, I think they will announce at some point, though. Maybe at Expo. Maybe that will be the Expo release. Because didn't you say, oh, by the way, we hired Brian Eddy back? Yeah. well they they did uh eddie at texas pinball okay oh you're right yeah sorry but that's that's the thing that brings up a really right yeah but that brings up a great point is they they announced eddie and then it felt like forever before eddie actually came out with a game because i felt like didn't they announce eddie and then elwynn like and then elwynn came out with iron maiden no no no elwynn was there okay no i just i felt like for some odd reason eddie like everyone was like where is eddie's game where is this game you know no i think that elwynn was already if i'm remembering correctly he'd already come out with iron maiden so let's move on um i i think we've we've hit this with we've we've ran this gas out on this one i i would actually be curious to find out what you the listeners want to say yeah definitely because because i it's it still seems a little puzzling to me uh steve moving because it's obviously not going to be the same grind at stern and maybe that is something that is um that is uh attractive to him yeah well you can't tell me right now with how well games are selling that they're going to go back to three designers there they have got to bring in another designer yeah they have to do four i i don't think you can churn out a game a year and have the same level of polish that they're used to yep so and i can't i guarantee gomez isn't going to step into that role role just because he's talked about on interview and interview in the past i mean he's done three or four interviews in the last couple years that he's just said i enjoy designing but i just can't do it there's just too much on my plate yeah it's exactly so so let's let's move on still we'll still stick with stern though um do you believe the Lyman sheets? Like I, I still haven't heard of official confirmation. Like we saw with the video of Steve Ritchie arriving at JJP. I, I would bet that Lyman is transitioning at some point to something. And I'm not sure what that is. He's been doing the deep dives on the boutique games. So he did the deep dive on Batman 66. And he did the deep dive on Elvira. Yeah. Is it possible that he wants to continue to do deep dives on passion projects? I'm sure. Because I guarantee people in pinball who see it's a Lyman game, they will buy it. Yep. Because it's a stamp of quality and he has a proven track record of making magic, even with play fields that have been panned at first. Yeah. In notoriously Walking Dead, people did not like the layout. They did not like that. And Lyman's Code changed that to a fan favorite. And Batman 66, the same thing. Everyone felt like it was clunky. It wasn't a great shooting game. And Lyman's the one who who sprinkled his dust on there and made it what the game is today. yeah and uh elvira i've i i still haven't played elvira because there's uh there's not that many here but i've heard the same thing that people really like it i really every time i play it i really like it so it's there is um now is there an incentive for a competitor to hire lyman or is it possible that lyman transitions away from a major designer to a boutique designer and also independently.
    21:01
    So that transitions to we all have speculated and pretty much all but confirmed that Cactus Canyon is the next CCR game. Or sorry, the next Chicago CGC game. And so if Lyman transitions away from being a main designer and does more of Lyman projects that he wants to do, it would be a natural fit for him to take over that code and actually make it a great game. Yeah. So now I don't know that for sure at all. This is me speculating, but it makes at least reasonable sense that he has experience coding those games from the nineties. And he at least is very familiar with those layouts. When I listened to the pinball show this week, Zach many and Dennis Creasel. Hey guys, they talked about maybe he's working contract now for Stern. And that kind of makes sense to me. Like I said, I'm going to go back. I'm going to keep going back to the Steve Rich interview just because it's the most recent interview done with Steve. But he mentioned multiple times in that interview Lyman being there and playing games like his games and giving his advice on those games. Yeah. I would say that since Lyman is not in the normal rotation, that makes sense that he can. And really, from a business standpoint, it makes sense to transition him to a contract worker because if he's not going to be producing at the same volume as the other people, then it's difficult to justify someone's salary when they're working on one game for two and a half, three years. Yeah. And it really is. When you're looking at the amount of games they sell, yes, it sells that game and there's a premium associated with that. but it's still challenging to say, hey, we're paying your three-year salary for one game.
    22:57
    It's hard to make that matter. But if it's a contract, he's like, hey, you're contracted to do this game, then it makes sense for him to be able to say, okay, well, I also want to branch out a little bit. I've done this for Stern for a long time. Well, and we tend to forget, you know, we talk about Lyman's games, but we tend to forget he did do the spike system. He's been working on other stuff that isn't just the coding of games. That's true, yeah. And so maybe that's another reason, too, that they – I don't know. It just – from the way it sounded when we talked to Steve and May, Lyman was still there. So this idea of people claiming that he's been gone for months – I mean, I guess that's still technically months, but someone had claimed it was like eight, nine months he'd been gone. I don't buy that. I don't buy it either. But then again, we didn't buy the Steve Ritchie thing. So, OK, but there's been no like there's there's no rumor on a subreddit forum forum. And there was one rumor like four years ago. Right. Yeah. This isn't really again. It's not a go to place, which really shocks me that whoever wanted to leak that information did it on subreddit. yeah and it's uh it it still just kind of blows my mind it was it was obviously intentionally leaked there because it was so far outside what the uh like like what the normal channels are for pinball are yeah but i i could i could really see him do uh cactus canyon could you oh yeah definitely i mean i've always felt like cactus canyon is that lyman eddie it's in the wheelhouse yeah yeah it's just that that family out with the same kind of attack for mars medieval madness kind of code it's it would not shock me if it was if he was there yeah because if you look at his thing elvira was the last game 2019 and yeah he's had stuff then he did he like an acdc polish then he did batman 66 which was 2016 and then he had the walking dead which is 2014 metallica 2013 acdc 2012 so uh he had a lot of big things going on but oh my gosh i didn't realize he was associated with avatar but also like i said though he's also done spike spike too we know that internet connectivity has been coming from Stern he's probably been working on the coding for that I just I don't know there's a lot more layers to the Sunion I think it's certainly possible for him to still be working on side projects it could be that he wants to take a break from these deep dives but I don't know at this point I'm convinced that I'm 2% right on everything so here we go I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I don't know. I do firmly believe that there is a new designer at Stern, but I could be entirely wrong. I think there's a new designer. I would bet that Lyman is still involved, whether or not full time, but as a contract worker. um it does surprise me that he hasn't been announced because typically we know you know we know that uh that keith generally does his own um his own layout and his rule set architecture by letting you know that his team work on everything else too to to tune it in but um lyman probably wouldn't be working on that in you know in the steve ritchie uh sorry Lyman wouldn't be working on that as like a sub coder if you know what I mean like a he'd be the guy pulling the strings well heck hasn't Lyman been working mostly with KamenKal lately anyway it's a possibility he could be working for Kapow which is essentially Stern anyway like Kapow is not going to be releasing stuff you know what I'm saying so maybe there's a Kapow game out there that we just don't know about yeah and so I'm not too worried about it just yet yeah i think we'll know more here soon um or maybe we won't know anything at all hopefully well we'll know something okay let's get let's get to the i already know the title of this episode and so i know people are gonna be clicking on this to hear what scott has to say um do we get to the letter from deep root first or do i get to the breaking news about deep root that we just received okay oh wow wow okay you know what i i want you to surprise because i didn't get this you got this when we started recording so i don't even know who sent it to see you but deep root is the gift that keeps giving when it comes to information to talk about i i i this guy just i i'm i'm so in love with this guy right now because it is a train wreck that keeps like winding he he crashes and then for some reason the train keeps going and keep crashing like this is you go to a NASCAR race to see crashes, and this guy has a crash every lap. So, okay, I'm going to read this because I love this so much that it is super obvious that this guy does not have anybody riding for him. So this is definitely Bobby Mueller riding. Dear Raza customer, we are sorry for the length of time without an update. We have been contacted by a few of you within the last few weeks. The main topics were how many people took the refund offer in parentheses three. Is the refund offer still available in parentheses? No. And what's the status of the Raza builds here? A legal matter affecting Raza rose around a month ago, around a month ago. OK, this is me interjecting here. Like, are you serious? Like, how long has this been going on? And then a month ago. So this guy is – he has a never-ending supply of the dog ate my homework.
    29:10
    Like seriously. It's like, oh, the check's in the mail. Oh, really? Oh, you know what? I'm printing the money. Oh, wait. No, really? You know what? I am inventing my own bank and there's some regulations here. I'm just totally getting all this set up. So the fact that he's again throwing chum in the water, that this lawsuit happened. Okay. So a legal matter affecting Raza arose around a month ago that we did not expect. We were – and by the way, isn't this guy in law, involved in law? That's what I thought his primary gig was. Okay, yeah. Okay. We were advised by counsel himself to not send out any substantive – okay, that's hard to say – communication while they work to resolve it amicably. We have taken that advice while patiently waiting for it to resolve. Yeah, patiently because you're not doing anything. The back and forth has taken much, much longer than we expected. Kind of like releasing any game whatsoever. So we are providing this brief update so you understand what the delay is about. OK, the delay is about you have no idea how to run a company. You have no idea how to actually design. You drank the Kool-Aid that J-Pop was pouring around, and then you decided to make this Molotov cocktail with it, light it on fire, and pour it over yourself, and that's how you were going to make a pinball machine. We cannot discuss the parties or what the complaint is about. We cannot provide a timeline. Well, you've never provided a timeline, at least the time you've been able to stick to. What we can say is that we are working hard to resolve slash settle it, and we hope to be resolved very soon. I'll add parenthetically. Very soon could mean like before like COVID ends, okay, in the next 20 years. We will be able to give a meaningful update at that time. Until then, dot, dot, dot, Robert J. Mueller, principal, deep root – okay, so this is like a joke high school because he even spelled it principal. How, you know, is how he's like your principal, right? Yeah. Like, okay, I cannot, I cannot unwrap this anymore. Like it, when I thought that by far, it was the next announcement was sincerely due to COVID. We had great aspirations for this, but COVID completely gutted our abilities and it was all COVID. And we're totally selling off our assets to, I don't know, HomePin or we're selling it off to American Pinball or whatever. The fact that this guy is, no one cares anymore. Legitimately no one cares about Deep Root. They're never gonna sell a game. They're never going to produce a game. This is not a Gene Cunningham situation where come hell or high water he is going to make Big Bang Bar This guy has a sleeve of excuses and I totally expecting him to buy hydrofoil just like Andrew Highway
    32:16
    It really has become so farcical at this point that I'm surprised this guy has a full-time job. Yeah. because it sounds like someone who is selling some multi-level marketing junk out of his basement that is going to cure cancer and take you to the moon so oh my gosh like okay i don't even know what else to say like i'm surprised that only three took the refund why would you not take the refund well i just why would a lawsuit already pop up for raza like there hasn't been enough time when did they start taking funds like i i i don't know like it's the fact that it's just so vague and just so weird that it just it it sounds i'm sorry it sounds like a con job right now scott there's no chance oh my oh it gets better oh it gets better lay it on me okay you ready for this bring it we were sent an email right as our episode started recording uh it doesn't say whether to say the gentleman's name or not so i'm gonna i'm gonna redact it from this but he asked is it usually considered a good sign or a bad sign when a company deletes their facebook page same question goes for deep root funds and what's related to it oh wow go to it go to facebook.com slash deep root pinball right now oh wow okay um okay deep root I have Deep Root Harvest. Nope. It should be Deep Root Pinball. And it gives you a little Facebook thumbs up with a bandaid on it saying this page is either broken or it has been deleted. Wow. Oh, it gets better. You know, maybe someone hacked them or there could be something related to that, right? Yeah. I got thinking about it. I'm like, well, that's weird. I'll check. I know that Robert Mueller and I were quote unquote friends on Facebook. So I went to go look for him. He's disappeared too off of Facebook. What are the odds? Yeah, this is definitely what happens when someone goes supernova.
    34:37
    Hey, but Robert Mueller, the sixth director of the FBI, is still available. So you could get him. Maybe he can find Robert Mueller. Yeah. When someone goes dark on the internet, that means they have either left town already or they have completely jumped ship. Yep. Well, at least their webpage is still up. You can still go to DeepRootPinball.com. Oh, my gosh. And look at it, Raza.
    35:05
    Okay. But no, this is not a good sign. This is not a good sign. I know that we've been kind of – well, I know how you – I think everyone knows where Scott's been standing. Wait, contact information. I just kind of want to know. Contact page. There's a toll-free number, like an 800 number at the bottom. Oh, my gosh. I totally want to. If it weren't like 11 o'clock at night right now, I would totally call it.
    35:29
    We should do it just to see what happens. It'll probably go to voicemail. Yeah. I don't care. Let's do this. You got it or you want me to do it? Go ahead. Okay. I'm pulling it up right now. Okay. Let's see if this rings through. To get the fastest help, please note the following email addresses. If you are an investor or an advisor, please email us at contact at deeprootfunds.com. Once again, that is contact at deeprootfunds.com. For all other inquiries, please email us at contact at deeproottech.com. Once again, that is contact at deeproodtech.com.
    36:16
    There you go. That's what it gives you. That's your toll-free number, and then it hangs up on it. Okay. Now, one, that sounds like a basic computer-generated automatic response, right? Yep. This is someone who typed it in and said, hey, computer. It reminds me of those dial-up days where, okay, it's like Gorgar talks. He's like, sure. The fact that this sounds like it was made on the Commodore 64 is not a good sign that that is Deep Root investing. Okay, seriously, the more and more I look at the logo that they decided to go with Deep Root, I mean, certainly just the imagery alone of a ball ramming into the earth and possibly something else. It definitely just tells you what is going on in this company. Wait, Raza in action. View now. Yeah. It just has the sizzle reel from December 3rd. I'm half tempted. I know this is terrible. But that little automatic voice thing. Yeah. How it goes. So email us at deeproot.com. funds at gmail or whatever it is i'm half tempted to clip that where it says again that is deep root f you f you done you could put that as your your text tone oh wait wait oh my gosh have you gone to deep root funds uh-uh what's deep root funds it's a private equity fund okay i'm just looking at like uh okay i know a i know a little bit about designing um designing web pages right my my brother does like web design this wow this doesn't look super professional this looks like something that you could do yourself, which he probably did.
    38:20
    This isn't, yeah. If you put in deep root funds, it comes up as an investment service in San Antonio. Yeah.
    38:28
    Allocation philosophy. There's only one deep root. We have designed an investment structure never before created.
    38:36
    Okay. Doesn't this sound like the hedge fund dude who took all the money that they couldn't figure out? Yeah. And ran. It's Bernie Madoff. While investment funds have been around for many years, the rise in popularity of funds here in the United States in the last 40 years was driven by an effort to simplify blah, blah, blah.
    38:55
    Okay. At DeepRote, we have designed our private investment funds around a four-pronged approach to investing. Be bold but simple by adhering to fund types, which complement blah, blah, blah, over-promise blah, blah, blah, never deliver anything blah, blah, blah, delete Facebook page. So there's the four-step approach. dude this is not good this is not a good sign oh geez i and okay i i have not seen someone crater this bad uh since uh i'm trying to figure out like what sort of person came in with this like big it's like it's like erupting into the earth at a thousand miles an hour this This is like the meteor that hit like in Mexico and destroyed all the dinosaurs. Yeah. Wow. Dude, this is not good. I wonder – this is terrible of me. Like I don't know John Papaduke as a person. Like he's probably a wonderful guy. He's probably a good family man. No, no, no. He is not. He's deeply flawed. Not when it comes to business. I'm saying like probably on a personal level. You don't know that. There are horrible people out there. What I'm saying is, I don't mean this as like a personal stab at him.
    40:16
    I'll stab. But Papa Duke is what tanks your company. After listening to the Silver Ball Chronicles today and listening to them talk about how Star Wars Episode I is what made them pull the plug at Williams and kill the pinball division. And guess who designed that? Yeah. John Papa Duke. Yeah. I mean, everything that Papa Duke has touched since 1999 has tanked in one way or another and bad, like flames going up just bonfire style. Yeah, well, that's a 22-year track record. How many successful years did he have? Well, that's the thing, though. Like, you listen to these interviews and stuff. I almost get the impression that Papa Duke didn't, like, he designed some of the stuff, but I think a lot of these designs were... Someone fixed them? Yeah. Papaduke started them, someone fixed them, and then Papaduke took the credit. Papaduke had a way of making something look interesting. Yeah. And that's what it was. Like, it has an interesting flair that is different than others. But it certainly is not a, wow, this is a, I don't know. I guess you can have some super fun games. Okay. The Gloriers are over. And this is Tito Jackson trying to release his singles. Dude, like, well, and think even Williams. Like, think of the games he made there. We've got World Cup Soccer, we've got Totten, the Tales of Arabian Nights, we've got Circus Voltaire, we've got Theater of Magic, and Star Wars Episode I. And you think about it, by the time Star Wars Episode I happened, the ship was already going down. Gomez and Pat Lawler, bless their souls, did everything in their path along with Larry DeMar to keep that ship afloat. And they did a fantastic job. One of my favorite games is Revenge for Mars. and I wish they would have just released a couple more games. I wanted to see where this platform was going. It is what got me into pinball. Thank you, Gomez, for making Revenge from Mars because it just piqued my interest. I'd never seen anything like it before, and no one's really seen anything like it since except for you could argue P3.
    42:27
    But my point being is you listen to the Silver Ball Chronicles episode. No spoilers or anything here because a lot of this stuff's been out for 20 plus years. Gomez tried to convince Papa Duke not to do what he did with Star Wars Episode I, and Papa Duke did it anyway. And so I just, I don't know, dude. I really think that people aren't in love with Papa Duke. I think they're in love with the person that fixed Papa Duke's designs. I just don't think. I didn't realize that really this entire list, He has four games. No, he has four games that I would consider any good. Yeah. He has World Cup Soccer, Theater of Magic. So he had a three-year window. And I'll add one year for his development. He had four years until he did Circus Voltaire. And it has been 24 years since then. It's all been turds. Dude, he – okay, here's Rick Springfield re-releasing Jessie's Girl.
    43:34
    Exactly. He has gotten so much – I didn't realize how criminally small his resume was. Wow. It is tiny. And like I said, like it's not a knock on Papaduke, but I really just – It's a knock on Papaduke. I'm sorry. It's a knock. And that's – wow. What a joke. dude i just it's one of those situations where it's just like it's it's time let's let's just call this quits dude he was a one hit one like that's it he was a okay he was a four hit wonder and yeah and that's it but man i didn't realize how he has more zizzle games yep and those zizzles are the ones you buy at like target for 20 bucks like i said i really think that people need to understand i don't think you're in love with papa duke i think you're in love with the person that fixed Papa Duke's games at Williams.
    44:29
    I'm looking behind the curtain. There is no Wizard of Oz, kids. No. Wow. This Deep Root thing is going to go on, though. That's the problem. Robert Mueller can run away as much as he wants.
    44:46
    Sorry, kids. You're never getting your game. As I've said for a long time, you're never getting your game and I doubt you're going to get your money back. I seriously doubt you're going to get your money back. Well, I appreciate the person that emailed us and said, hey, I had to mix the cash. But that person knew what they were getting into. And I appreciate that. I feel sorry for the person who felt like he was investing early in Wizard of Oz and ended up getting their Wizard of Oz. Yep.
    45:18
    Wow. It's done. When their social media is gone, you are gone, kids. Because that is free. That is free. Yeah, the only thing they have is a website and a toll-free number that goes to what you just heard. Yeah. So this isn't good. Woo! Okay. All right. Well, it's just – I will say the plus – is there – okay. Let's talk about this. Winners and losers.
    45:48
    Is there a plus side to this at all, Josh? A silver lining? Is there anything about this that – I would say that hopefully the community has learned that we can't keep investing into these people that are nothing but fluff. Yeah.
    46:08
    I mean, really, what startup company that has asked for money up front has worked out besides Spooky?
    46:17
    Yeah. I don't know. I guess there is – okay, I will say there is one plus. Okay. Okay? There is one clear winner in the – well, okay, there's actually two winners in the desolation of J-Pop that he has left. Okay. We have Zombie Yeti because he's the one who made Alice in Wonderland look so pretty.
    46:56
    And him being discovered and coming into pinball has been great. There is also, and I know this is a little bit out of left field, American Pinball.
    47:08
    Yeah, true. Because American Pinball thought, hey, there is something here. Look at the demand this complete clown drove. But they were smart in that as soon as they immediately saw who J-Pop was, they did not play the emperor's new clothes card. They saw him for what he was and they yeeted him out of there so fast that they could actually make, I would say, a very successful startup pinball company. and they're still cutting their baby teeth, kids. But wow. I would say American Pinball and Zombie Yeti. What about you?
    47:56
    I agree. I think that's about it. Maybe I just feel bad for Steve Bowden. I wanted to see what he produced.
    48:03
    If anything has been proven to us over the last five years it Fresh blood that is higher up on the IFPA rankings that understand code make good code sets Like Tim Sexton's killing it. Raymond Davidson's killing it.
    48:20
    Bowen Cairns did great with Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. Obviously he's not super young, but still he is fresh blood that knows his rule sets. You know what I'm saying? And Steve Bowden is definitely that person. And he is fantastic when it comes to code.
    48:37
    And so I just. Well, OK, now in fairness, we don't know. Steve is a great ambassador. And I don't know one person who doesn't like Steve. I'm hoping that because pinball is his passion, I'm hoping he does find some way of making it a job. but um we you know aside from being aside from being very successful in uh being the good guy in pinball um he's he's an unknown quantity yep he really is unless if you've played raza which raza was playable yeah okay years ago sure and i actually know a guy who played six hours on raza he used to work for deep root and i talked to him about it and he said it's nothing special like he was not impressed not interested didn't want to buy it i don't know so i guess okay here's here's the other question too because some of the speculation too is well if deep root does actually go under they'll sell their assets to another company can they even do that at this point if they're weekly i don't know i okay so food truck is going to be a big seller um they okay let's let's say because they said they had the who and the goonies yeah they really do have those two licenses it might be worth it for another company to go after them but is it the themes maybe but those licenses are usually time uh like time uh sensitive yeah they're time sensitive they have to either do something with them within two to three years and they got to give back yeah and so i i don't know in some ways these scenes could be forever tainted like people will always associate that it's uh and we all know uh we brought up before deep root or deadpool uh deadpool did a complete um gut job and rebuilt from the ground up and were able to resurrect that title but and come on is goonies really that relevant now i i don't i i don't see it okay and they couldn't make beetlejuice they couldn't make beetlejuice They're not going to make Goonies. They're not going to make Superman 2.
    50:48
    These things, we have some nostalgia for them, but are they marketable? I don't think so. I think some of them, yes. Okay, Queen, sure. I know Zach Manny is going to be upset with me, but I just don't get Goonies. Maybe it's because I didn't grow up in the 80s and watched that in the theaters as a child. We re-watched it just a couple years ago, my wife and I. And at the end of it, we're like, like, I know it's a coming of age story, but it just it didn't feel like it held up to this. It doesn't time. No. And what happens actually a lot of times, 80s were built on stereotypes. They really were. Yeah. And it's all about the like, hey, the kids in the 80s, like they were it was terrible. Like watch Home Alone. Really try to watch it with your kids. and half the time we're watching it we're pausing and saying okay so you know how these kids are not being nice to each other you can't do that like this is not how we interact with you like they just allowed this horrible behavior and just said oh well this is the stereotype so we're just going to go with it i mean goonies it's when you watch 80s movies with your kids you never realized how much swearing was in them when you watched them as a kid oh yeah goonies has a lot swearing in it yeah it's impressive how much swearing it is in it yeah so i i think a lot of these classic nostalgia themes i there's a reason why they have a marketing guy who will go out and check the viability of a theme and and so i i just don't see it um yeah the games okay so so let's go over these no longer for sale. Oh, no.
    52:31
    It's sad. It's like a time. Okay, I can't even pull up their games. They've probably pulled that all from their website too. It was Food Truck. It was Yukon Yeti. I actually had it recently. I had it up last time. There's only... Okay, that's telling right there. All of their licenses are pulled.
    52:53
    They just have Raza on there. And they have the Fire and Brimstone. Who doesn't want to... Honestly, this is what I'm... Like I said, they're probably honestly trying to cover the rest of their assets that they have so that way they can hopefully salvage them and sell them to another company and not get them bound up in a legal suit, which is going to happen regardless. Oh, no, I found it. Sorry, I did find it. It's under Upcoming Games. Titled To Be Determined. Fire and Brimstone. Gladiator. Magic Girl, Machine Age, Food Truck, The Who, Merlin's Arcade, Yukon Yeti, Alice, Combative Racing License, Multiplex, Popular Board Game License, 80s Movie License. Okay, seriously, this is a senior project in high school's brainstorming session. Yeah.
    53:52
    Okay, The Who, maybe. is the Who relevant? They've already had a game. They've already had two games.
    54:03
    I say, okay, but here's the problem. Does anybody in pinball want to listen to Pinball Wizard? I doubt it, but you never know. There might be still people out there that love the Who that want another Who pinball machine. I would take a Bon Jovi pinball machine.
    54:20
    Yeah, I think there's bigger giants. that are closer but okay these aren't even the a-list this is like the sea okay merlin's arcade seriously i'm looking at these things and they look like games that i would download on my iphone for three bucks or or the the free play you know the the free games you're like hey you want to buy a special uh food uh thing and we'll be able to get farther in the game but the thing is is like well okay i guess we're running back to where we were where we started every Everything's tanking. They're not going to be making any of these games. And everything you just said to me, I don't see that selling. The only thing that could sell, I mean, they obviously had some good talent at Deep Root. And I think that's another reason people got behind it, is they saw that picture of seven or eight different people sitting around in that room. And they're just like, yes, Barry Osler, Dennis Norman, and stuff like that. I think that's the only thing that's going to save Deep Root, or make them break even at this point, or not even break even. They're not going to break even. They get out of a lawsuit. Hopefully this is a, this is a write-off situation where it's like I made money somewhere else, hopefully. And I'm just going to use this as a loss. Yeah. Yep. So I, I just, I don't see, I, I don't see it happening anymore. No, no, it's, it's done. Once you're, once your free Facebook page goes, goes dark, you are done. Yep. And your personal Facebook page goes dark. That's the one that gets me, man. When people go dark on Facebook, there's a reason. Yep.
    56:03
    He's probably getting too many contacts, people asking questions. Probably was just easier to get rid of it. Yeah. I think so.
    56:12
    Man. Crazy. Crazy, crazy. So you're telling me we won't see a Deep Root game at Expo? Yeah. So I guess the other question, too, is does Raza go down? Because there's obviously a prototype at least made. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. It's someone who wants to collect a weird thing. It's like having those eight magic girls or whatever.
    56:38
    20 years from now when people are talking about really obscure games. Yeah, but you can't play it, at least with an obscure type like Big Bang Bar. You can play it.
    56:48
    Okay. You can play the one prototype. Do you want to? Dude, people that collect those kind of games, it doesn't matter if it plays great or not. People who collect those kind of games have money to burn.
    57:01
    Obviously, there's enough people out there that bought how many Magic Girls that were available from Zidware for $25,000. Well, they're idiots.
    57:12
    I'm sorry. You buy it because it's art. You don't buy it because you want to play it. But a lot of people didn't know that when they were buying it. They should know now. You should. Hey, dude, if you're going to be spending $25,000 on something, you should know what you're buying. So I did pull this up, and this is interesting. So hopefully things are cool with Jeff Patterson. I just saw an update that was posted August 2nd. Hello, fellow pinheads. Unfortunately, real life is going to force a short break from the weekly This Week in Pinball updates. There are a lot of interesting happenings going on in pinball in the world right now. and we'll play catch up on everything when we return on august 23rd uh as you uh thank you as always for your support of this week in pinball and go play some pinball sincerely jeff this week in pinball so hope everything's cool with jeff maybe he's just on a summer uh vacation but damn it's if you need to step back from pinball for a while that's what you do yep well and i texted him after i saw that i texted him just asking him hey is everything fine and uh he said yeah things are okay yeah so maybe maybe he maybe he got hired by deep root maybe he is buying deep roots assets maybe yeah i just yeah oh my goodness yeah crazy stuff well i think that does it for our show tonight yeah because we're at it yeah i just it's it's it's just mind-boggling but all right so So, okay, so to recap, loud wrong on Steve Ritchie leaving. I wish him well. It's still kind of head-scratching to me, but I guess more will come out as time goes on. I'm sure if someone does know something, go ahead and send us a message. We'd love to hear, even anonymously.
    59:07
    But, yeah, and Deep Root, I'm hoping this is the final thing, But you know how it's kind of like Dutch pinball. You know how there was always these weekly train wrecks, and then eventually it just kind of disappeared into the ether. I'm kind of hoping and thinking that's what's going to happen with Deep Root. Yeah, but the thing about Dutch pinball, people bought their assets and made the big Lebowski. But then again, the big Lebowski is actually a good design and was a complete game, or for the most part was a complete game when it was shipping. so yeah okay but okay but how how relevant are you interested in anything dutch pinball related right now i've never played a big lubowski i i know where one is at it's four hours away i want to make a trip up there i want to check this guy's collection out i need to find time just to do it yeah but i i was intrigued in the dutch pinball uh bride of pinball kit before it Yeah. Before it went from like, what was it? Two grand, three grand to buy up to like eight or thirteen thousand dollars for the kit. And it's like, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. So.
    60:17
    Yeah. So we'll see if anyone knows anything more. Let us know. This is us certainly speculating. But I would say Outlooks doesn't look good. I think Outlooks look fine for Steve. And I would say even all parties. I think this is one of those things that may be shaking things up is probably a good thing. and then with Deep Root again, just another spectacular crash that did not need to happen.
    60:42
    Yep. But they set themselves up for failure on that one, man. No one else did that for them. Well, I'm still waiting for those five days of Deep Root. Yep, and it sounds like you'll be waiting a long time. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Well, if you want to get a hold of us, We are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We're also on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. Sorry, just at Loser Kid Pinball. I promise you we haven't deleted our social media pages. No.
    61:15
    I did just get a new box of swag, which reminds me, Expo's coming up. Scott and I are going to Expo. If you want a shirt, if you want a hat, you don't want to pay if you're coming from Canada, if you're coming from Australia, if you're coming from over in Europe, and you want one of these things, you don't want to pay the ridiculous shipping or whatever,
    61:34
    let me know. Email me at loserkidpinballpodcast at gmail.com. Let's get this taken care of because I want to get this stuff to Expo. I'll probably have to ship it to Expo instead of taking it on the airplane with me.
    61:49
    We're going to have to get it figured out, but I want to get all the orders taken care of. We'll have orders open probably until the end of September, so that way we can get them all printed and ready to go. yeah so no absolutely and uh and hey steve steve govea i haven't forgot about you i do have your beanie but it's probably annoying degrees down in san diego so uh i'll get that to you and teal us we finally get to give you your hat and shirt man so you better be you better be at expo we got a baby tea for you steve all right jeff sorry oh my goodness other than that i think i this one This is quicker than the two weeks we talked about last time. Hey, when the news wakes up, we have to talk about it. Yeah. So I guess we'll see you in two weeks, Scott. All right, we'll see you. Bye.
    62:57
    Deep Root F.U. you