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The Pinball Show Ep 133 Preview: The Venom Episode

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·18m 58s·analyzed·Jul 19, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Venom preview: pricing, team, art analysis, and new game rating system.

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts Dennis Creasel and the primary host preview their full analysis of Stern Pinball's Venom machine, covering the design team (Brian Eddy, Dwight Sullivan, Raymond Davidson), pricing ($6,999 Pro / $9,699 Premium / $12,999 LE), and extensive evaluation of art direction by Zombie Yeti. The hosts debate Zombie Yeti's art package quality across models, establish a new game evaluation framework ('checking boxes'), and discuss theme execution and composition choices.

Key Claims

  • Zombie Yeti (Jeremy Packer) is undoubtedly the best artist in pinball and has been since Ghostbusters

    medium confidence · Host assertion that if a poll were conducted among pinball enthusiasts, Zombie Yeti would rank #1 all-time pinball artist

  • This is the first time Dwight Sullivan and Raymond Davidson have worked together

    high confidence · Dennis explicitly states 'This is the first time I believe Dwight and Raymond have worked together'

  • The LE playfield art differs from the Pro model in the Doppelganger area and apron due to mechanical differences

    high confidence · Host notes Doppelganger swings out with inserts beneath on Premium/LE but not Pro; apron also differs

  • Venom's Doppelganger and Premium models share the same translites but differ in cabinet and apron art

    high confidence · Explicit statement: 'we do have the same trans lights for the Yelly and the Premium, and the Playfield art is identical across all three models' except specified areas

  • This Venom art package ranks outside Zombie Yeti's top three art packages in the host's personal pantheon

    high confidence · Host states 'in terms of the pantheon of zombie Yeti art packages, this is not top three'

  • The hosts are introducing a new formal grading system for evaluating pinball games based on 'checking boxes'

    high confidence · Discussion of 3-5 box framework: '3 out of 5 will sell a lot. 4 out of 5 is a guaranteed hit'

Notable Quotes

  • “compared to our episode 132, we're a day late and $13,000 short, aren't we?”

    Host @ Early episode — Humorous commentary on Venom's $12,999 LE pricing as a cornerstone release

  • “if you were to do a top 10 pinball artist straight down the middle video, you wouldn't have to rely on some sort of whimsical pinball gods as an excuse for the list. I think you could probably objectively say he would score at the number one slot.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Mid-episode — Strong endorsement of Zombie Yeti as objectively the best pinball artist

  • “It's well done. I mean, come on. It's Jerry. He knows what he's doing. you can't argue like the comp... The art is very informational. So for me, information trumps all.”

    Host (non-Dennis) @ Art discussion — Acknowledges Zombie Yeti's technical skill while noting congested playfield design serves shot communication

  • “in terms of the pantheon of zombie Yeti art packages, this is not top three.”

    Host (non-Dennis) @ Art ranking section — Establishes Venom's art as good but not among Zombie Yeti's best work

  • “I think it's pretty telling that we only put him in competition against himself.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Late episode — Meta-observation about Zombie Yeti's dominance in Stern art—no other modern artists discussed for comparison

  • “Four out of five is a guaranteed hit. Three out of five will sell a lot of units.”

    Host (non-Dennis) @ Box-checking framework section — Articulation of new game evaluation rubric being introduced

Entities

VenomgameZombie YetipersonBrian EddypersonDwight SullivanpersonRaymond DavidsonpersonDennis Creaselperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Stern Pinball executed professional game announcement with comprehensive launch package: high-res images, feature matrix, 30-page rule sheet, and video content

    high · Host notes 'Stern Pinball had given us all of the high-res pictures. They'd given us a feature matrix, even a rule sheet, like a 30-page rule sheet'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts anticipate Pinside forum negativity and dismissal of Venom regardless of objective quality, expressing cynicism about online discourse quality

    medium · 'Whenever I read Pinside, I'm always going to read that this thing sucks and it's the ugliest thing ever. And people don't even know what the game they're talking about.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Zombie Yeti employs informational art approach: playfield congestion intentionally communicates character associations through art density rather than minimalist design

    high · Host states 'Those shots are clearly... corresponding to like a carnage or a black suit Spider-Man, what better way to convey that than to make it clear which characters in the art. The art is very informational. So for me, information trumps all.'

  • $

    market_signal: Hosts introducing formalized game evaluation framework ('box-checking' system) to objectively assess whether games meet minimum quality thresholds for commercial success

    high · 'Three out of five will sell a lot of units. Four out of five is a guaranteed hit... So how many boxes do you think this is? This is a box check. Art checks the box.'

  • $

    market_signal: Venom priced identically to Foo Fighters cornerstone release (March 2024): $6,999 Pro / $9,699 Premium / $12,999 LE, indicating price stability in cornerstone tier despite earlier speculation

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.057

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:13
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. On episode 133 of The Pinball Show, it's nothing but venom, baby. as Dennis and I deep dive with you the different models of Venom. We discuss the creators who made this possible, pricing, sales, production, as well as loosely establish a new system for grading new games as we dive into the Venom art, shots and layout, mechs and toys, code rules, animation display, theme, and just a general overall assessment and analysis by myself and pinball sweetheart Dennis Creasel. About to learn something here on the Pinball Show.
1:00
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Choose your host. Change the game.
1:17
Hey, what's going on, everybody? It's episode 133 of the Pinball Show. I'm here with Dennis Creasel. What? 133 already? I know. On a very special 133 of the Pinball Show. Dennis, what are we doing here? Well, we're going to do Venom. We are Venom. It's finally officially revealed. Yes. In the words of Venom, we can do whatever we want. Oh. I was just going to say, compared to our episode 132, we're a day late and $13,000 short, aren't we? Hmm. Well, you know what they say. There's always the pro model. We appreciate all of the continued support from the exclusive Pinball Show Club membership over at patreon.com slash the pinball show. Some of you are listening to this right at release of Venom. Others are listening to this at the beginning of the week. But regardless, thank you so much for tuning in and listening to Dennis and I's overview of the recently released term pinball Venom. Before deep diving into the different categories such as art, shots, layouts, mechs, toys, codes, rules, animation, display, before doing all that, we know that this is a cornerstone release. Thus, listener, there are three models, a pro, a premium, and a limited edition model. The limited edition model is limited to 1,000 units. Pricing did not change from the last cornerstone in Foo Fighters when that released in March. So that would be $6,999 for the pro. Oh, nice. $9,699 for the premium. You're good. And $12,999 for the limited edition. Nailed it. Thank you. And we know that the creative team behind this is lead designer Brian Eddy, who from Stern Pinball has done the Stranger Things game, as well as the Mandalorian Pinball Machine, and known most well for his design of Medieval Madness back in the 90s and Attack from Mars and my favorite 90s Ballywilliam game, The Shadow. Yep, and the two lead software engineers are Dwight Sullivan and Raymond Davidson, though I believe the programming team is actually at least four individuals. Oh, yeah, I'd assume so. This is the first time I believe Dwight and Raymond have worked together. Ooh! So Raymond Davidson made his name on, let's see, I'd say Led Zeppelin, Rush, and Foo Fighters are the main three that he's known for, and then Dwight Sullivan, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters, Mandalorian, I would say are the three fairly recent well-known ones. Right now, Raymond is throwing all of his trophies from his trophy room of Avengers Infinity Quest.
The Pinball Show
organization
Stern Pinballcompany
Foo Fightersgame
Ghostbustersgame
Deadpoolgame
Iron Maidengame
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
Godzillagame
Avengersgame
Primusgame
Star Warsgame

high · 'Pricing did not change from the last cornerstone in Foo Fighters when that released in March'

  • ?

    community_signal: Host self-awareness about subjective aesthetic preferences (purple cabinet art trauma from RGB LED trends) creating potential bias in critical evaluation

    medium · Host discusses 'residual trauma from that' seeing purple due to excessive RGB lighting in past customizations, affecting current Venom cabinet rating

  • ?

    community_signal: Zombie Yeti's art consistency across Marvel properties limits stylistic range despite technical mastery; hosts expect similar 'Marvel method' palette (reds, oranges) limiting perceived originality

    high · Host notes 'even like Godzilla... I feel like he keeps doing all these Marvel properties... I've already seen him do things like Avengers and Deadpool. I don't need the same sort of style'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: First documented collaboration between programmers Dwight Sullivan and Raymond Davidson on a Stern title

    high · Dennis explicitly states 'This is the first time I believe Dwight and Raymond have worked together. Ooh!' suggesting this is noteworthy

  • ?

    product_strategy: Venom Pro/Premium/LE models feature distinct art treatments: Pro emphasizes full Venomverse; Premium highlights Carnage/Miles Morales; LE presents stark Venom vs. Carnage duality

    high · Detailed breakdown showing 'pro model tries to encapsulate everything... Premium, you get more reds... and then the LE is one side is Venom, the other side is Carnage'

    • 3:49
    Trophy challenge! Well, he can put them in a suitcase and fly them over in one of his airport modes. Oh, wonderful. I think this is kind of a dream team because then we had art by, I think that if we took a poll from all the pinball enthusiasts in the industry right now, the hobby, they would say undoubtedly that Zombie Yeti, that is Jeremy Packer, is the best artist in pinball and has been for since he came aboard on Ghostbusters. Yes, I think if you were to do a top 10 pinball artist straight down the middle video, you wouldn't have to rely on some sort of whimsical pinball gods as an excuse for the list. I think you could probably objectively say he would score at the number one slot. Whoa, of all time. Of all time, yes. I think so. Wow. Such a modern shill.
    4:40
    It what I do Who was the artist on Gottlieb Victory Was that Polaroid? I think that would be... I think that's Nikon. Is that Nikon?
    5:01
    Wonderful. So, yeah, kind of a dream team here on Stern Pinball's Venom. What I do like about this announcement, it rolled out very well right in the morning, and Stern Pinball had given us all of the high-res pictures. They'd given us a feature matrix, even a rule sheet, like a 30-page rule sheet, which I appreciate, two videos to oversee. And was there anything else? There's a lot of stuff for people to consume themselves with Venom here. So the launch, I think, was pretty standard and gave everybody the information they needed to make an assessment as to what this game generally will be. So what do you want to start with? Art? Yeah, I guess we can start with art. Yeah, I was going to say, leading into that, I did go ahead and look it up because I did not know. Victory was Constantino and Janine Mitchell. Oh, nice. Credited for the art package, yes. I still think my camera joke was funnier in a sort of late 80s SNL way. Is it safe to say that unlike some of Zombie Yeti's work in the past, art-wise, this premium LE sometimes kind of blur into one another? To me, these all three seem visually like different art pieces. I would agree in terms of the cabinet art. However, we do have the same trans lights for the Yelly and the Premium, and the Playfield art is identical across all three models. Technically, the Playfield art on the Premium LE is different than the Pro Well, because of the doppelganger swings out and he's got inserts under him, whereas on the Pro they don't have that. So that area is actually a whole different visual of, I think it's Carnage and Venom. Okay, I did not notice that. Wow, it's a totally different art package. But other than that area, yes, everything else is. The apron's also different. Yes, apron is different. I didn't mention the apron being different. Which one did you like art-wise? Because we've got very typical to their releases. The pro model tries to encapsulate everything that is whatever theme they're working with. This is, I'm going to call it the Venomverse because it is not just Venom. He is the main character, but it incorporates Carnage. It incorporates all the different characters and baddies in Venom, as well as the iterations of the Hulk Venom and Captain America Venom. There's all different types of Venom. So I think the pro model looks at that with a mixture of colors. The premium, you get more reds, and you get more of that battle between Miles Morales and Carnage. I thought all of these are just symbiotes, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm not really squared away on my Venom lore. You could phone a friend on this hottie or something. I don't care. Who cares who it is? And then the LE is one side is Venom, the other side is Carnage. So it's a battle between those two. I would say that of the – like taken as a whole, I prefer the LE package. Oh, okay. That's my favorite. I suppose if I were to mix and match, I'd probably say the LE package but with the Pro Translite. So you like the Pro Translite? I like both Translites. I think they – it's just a different pose. It's just I think the – I don't know. It's a real close thing. Like it wouldn't – it doesn't bother me one way or the other on it. But I like the cab dichotomy much better on the LE. I like that contrast. Well, it's the only one that really has a dark side to it, that Venom side being in. And I like that because initially I thought, well, is this going to be a lot of blacks? I do like the decision to use dark blues. Absolutely. Because it gives it more pop, but without it becoming a rainbow fest. I completely agree. And if you're talking about, because I've heard some people try to make the argument, this isn't dark enough. Venom is a dark, dark character. It's a dark world in the comic series. I would argue that the comic colors of popping go best with pinball. They always have. I think they always will. And when it comes to Venom, especially, I know that he's a darker character, but he's no spawn or anything like that. So he still has action and comedy encapsulated with him. So just going black and white just doesn cut it I like that they used a lot of color here Right And Jeremy palettes are actually they not too I mean I used the word Rainbow Fest earlier which would of course was designed to suggest using all of the colors which he doesn't do. He usually does select a palette that, I always call it Marvel method, because that's what I associate with it. So you'll see a lot of reds and oranges usually. And so I'm looking a bit for variety. I feel the premium is very much what I normally think of when I think of Jeremy's work for Stern, a lot of red, a lot of orange. And my least favorite is definitely that pro cabinet. Purple's like my least favorite color in pinball. I think it's because I saw too many people perp it up back in the old days with their RGB lights. I should just say their regular LED lights that were just purples everywhere. I was just like, guys, don't perp it up, guys. I think I just have residual trauma from that. So seeing this purple, even though it seems well integrated, I mean, like it's real easy to see Venom and read his name on the sides of the cabinet. I see that purple and I'm like, absolutely not my least favorite by a country mile. When I look at these, man, it sucks that I have to be biased. I want to be able to just tell people how I feel about this shit. Well, you're going to tell them how you feel no matter what. Yeah. And I dare you guys not to believe me, honestly. I don't. Whenever I read Pinside, I'm always going to read that this thing sucks and it's the ugliest thing ever. And people don't even know what the game they're talking about. They just insert negativity.
    10:58
    I just like Zambietti work, so this all looks unbelievable to me. It all looks great to me. When given preference, I like the back glass of the premium and LE. Given what I like cabinet-wise, I see why you like the LE, the differentiation. I hate the dichotomy between stuff. I don't like when they do that. It gives me the whole Transformers half purple, half red. I hate it. Oh, that was one of the more fun cabinets. No, I don't like when they split things. I like things to be like a Star Wars premium. You guys have heard me say that. You've got Endor or Hoth or whatever the white, the snow is on one side and the space. I hate that. I like it all to be similar. Now, I do like that it's different artwork on the Ellie on both sides. and I do love the foil that the LE has to offer. But give me, I love that premium. The side cabinet on that premium just does it for me. You get all the colors, but then you get the bright reds and oranges too from Carnage. There's no bad art here. I like all of them. Now, we were talking before the air. You weren't as hot on this art package from Yeti as you have been his previous work. Is that correct? Right. It's well done. I mean, come on. It's Jerry. He knows what he's doing. you can't argue like the comp, at least I don't feel. And again, I'm not an artist. I can't. My critique abilities are merely that of a lay person. So I'm not going to critique the composition and the choices he made. And I even get the play field where I imagine some people are going to be a little annoyed at the, it feels congested. Oh, hell yeah. They're going to say it looks congested. But those shots are clearly, again, it's about shot communication. If all those shots are corresponding to like a carnage or a black suit Spider-Man, what better way to convey that than to make it clear which characters in the art. The art is very informational. So for me, information trumps all. So for me, that's good. But yeah, no, in terms of the pantheon of zombie Yeti art packages, this is not top three. What about this versus Foo Fighters? Foo Fighters I don't love, but part of that is the theme does nothing for me on Foo Fighters. And I was actually surprised at how well for – when I heard it was a band pin, I really had very low expectations on the art. And I thought, in a way, Fu kind of felt like it looked a bit like a different style in some ways. But my favorite is still one where I feel Jeremy did a very different style, and that's Ghostbusters. I still think that he's never really – and maybe it's because he keeps doing all these Marvel properties, and they like the – I know it's not really fair to say Marvel method. But I feel like even like Godzilla, I'm not in a way surprised that you like the premium package the best because, you know, 50 feet away, this is going to look just like all the other zombie yeti art packages you have. Those colors, those reds and oranges, it's all going to kind of blend into this red orange poppy explosion to you. And I think that's why you like it. Yeah. But for me, I want to see like different composition styling because I know he can do it. And this is just, you know, I've already seen him do things like Avengers and Deadpool. I don't need the same sort of style. But again, when it's a Marvel character, I don't really expect it to be different. So it met my expectations I just don It just doesn work as well for me as some of the other packages that he done Yeah I think for me it may be in my top three because I like this I definitely like it more than Foo Fighters I don't care if Dave Grohl is on my play.
    14:23
    If give me Venom or Grohl. Okay, please give me Venom. This looks better than Avengers to me. This looks this is like right. I would give this maybe an edge over Deadpool. Because for Deadpool, I did not like that premium LA back glass on Deadpool, whereas Venom I do. When it comes to the Deadpool side art, I really liked the pro on Deadpool.
    14:52
    And then I love the big red Deadpool on the play field. I love those large features, just like the Venom down on the Star-Lord area, right big. I don't like the small character stuff, like the Rai. What would your ranking be? Because I would say my ranking – I'd have to have the list. Right, right. Well, I'll tell you the list real quick if you want. So besides Venom, he's had, I guess in chronological order, Ghostbusters. If you want to count it, and I wouldn't, but if you want to, All-Star Baseball and the Zombie League Baseball, he did those. If you want to count them, they're in the database. Iron Maiden, Deadpool, Primus, Turtles, Avengers, and Godzilla. So then also Foo and Venom from this year. So my ranking would be Ghostbusters number one, really any iteration. I love the art package on Ghostbusters. I think it looks really, really good. I would say my number two would actually be Iron Maiden Premium, the desert version thing going on there. I really like that. I don't care at all about Iron Maiden, but I love that art package. And then for me, I'd probably say Turtles, which is my third. Okay. Any version. We're not too far off there. And I will be the first to say that it is tough for me because I'm going to fall in love with themes that I like better. I'm going to go first place is Ghostbusters. I'm with you. Second, likely for me, would be Turtles. and then see then the next section for me is like Venom, Godzilla, and Deadpool are the next tier. And then All-Star Baseball didn't do much for me. It looks nice, but I don't rate it very high. Primus, I just don't give a shit. Foo Fighters looked pretty, but it's just not my theme at all. Yeah, I'd probably, looking back again at, I haven't looked enough at the Foo Fighters art because I was so uninterested in the theme, But I'd probably put Venom above Foo Fighters and maybe above Avengers. I didn't really care that much for the Avengers. Well, no, let me about the same as Avengers. I put it above Godzilla. Godzilla, I didn't like the decision to do the more postery style. You know, I wanted it to be a more muted color scheme, though. I talked about that back when that came out. So I just had different expectations. I mean, it's still, I think, pretty telling that we only put him in competition against himself. That's very much true. We always talk about whenever a game is released, it has to check so many boxes. All the boxes. Half the boxes. At least 25% of the boxes. You know me. I'm going to have this formal system at some point. I think the last time I roughly did it, it was like three out of five. And four out of five is a guaranteed hit. Three out of five will sell a lot of units. I see what you're saying, yeah. So how many boxes do you think this is? This is a box check. Art checks the box. The art is a box check. Yep. It's good. And when I check the box, I'm saying it is a standout selling feature. Check.
    18:02
    What about the shots and layout of this game? Let's jump into Brian Eddy's. To hear the rest of our deep analysis, whether or not this game checks enough boxes to be a hit, and what we're most excited about, and areas that we still question, Sign up to the official club membership of the Pinball Show at patreon.com slash thepinballshow, where you will not only get exclusive content from TPS, but you also will be invited to a private Discord to hang out and chat with us and the rest of our TPS community regarding this episode and all things pinball and non-pinball, to be fair, and other tier levels to get you access to that stuff as well as many other perks and benefits. This is the Pinball Show, and we want you to be a part of it. But fear not, for those who do not want to be part of the Pinball Show Club, this episode will air in its entirety next week.