Hey, what's going on Pinball Land? It's episode 14. That is one for a Flip N Out Pinball podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell. With me today, as always, the co-host with the most, Mr. Greg Bone. Greg, how are you, sir? I'm doing good, man. Just sitting here waiting for my new T-shirt to come in. What T-shirt is that? I had to specially order a I survived the Beetlejuice launch shirt. You did survive it. I'm still treading water on it, but I don't think we're out of the woods yet. There's a lot of things that happened since the last time we jumped on the mics. I know we were going to jump in and try to do some Beetlejuice game day coverage, and I was joking on the Patreon. on it. Everybody and their sister were doing some type of exclusive inside access to that game, so we decided to kind of pump the brakes. And honestly, even if we wanted to, I don't know if that would have been a possibility. Yeah, it was really busy. Really busy. It really was. But that's alright. So we're back. I got a little bit of energy going today, Greg. A little bit of adrenaline, and I'll tell you why. Tonight is Wednesday. We're recording this on Wednesday the 19th. Probably have it out later today or tomorrow. Wednesday nights, those Those are my Fortnite and bourbon nights with my brother. And I don't remember if I even discussed Fortnite, if it was here or on Patreon or somewhere else. But, man, we jump on. We fight these probably kids on Fortnite. It's so fun. If anybody plays Fortnite and you want to jump into a trio or a squad at one point, let me know. I get a couple of bourbons going that night. And before I kick it off, you know what I do on Wednesdays? What's that? See if you can guess it. Cigar. Yes. so it goes cigar fortnight bourbon like in in that exact order and i'm so freaking pumped that's why i i love when we record on wednesdays i'm just classically conditioned to be in a good mood you you kind of swayed me into all that because and i know exactly what you're doing because wednesdays you've kind of rubbed that's rubbed off on me wednesdays are kind of my night now i don't drink very much um i might drink friday night and then sunday for football and stuff But I've started to use like Wednesday is that hump day to have a drink, have a smoke, and to relax just to knock the chill off from the stress of the beginning of the week. So all that's kind of rubbed off on me. So every time I'm sitting out there, I'm thinking about Ken, Fortnite and a bourbon. Fortnite and a bourbon. Well, it's like Monday starts the week, right? So we're always busy on Monday. Mondays are nightmares for us. Mondays are tough. I love Tuesdays because that's when we – myself and Greg and Zach, we have our weekly meeting, and that's like three-hour meeting. And that's also a little bit of therapy sometimes, which is good. Wednesday's the middle of the week, Fortnite, bourbon, cigar. Thursday, hey, you've got Thursday night footballs on, so that's always great. Friday's fun because it's Friday, and then you're right into the weekend. So I don't really have a bad day during the week. No, it's not bad. Mondays are probably the worst just because catching up from the weekend. And, hell, we even work some weekends, but it's just still so busy coming off the weekend on Mondays, I feel, sometimes. But it's still not bad. We're still selling entertainment. We're still selling fun, Ken. We're selling fun. We were having that conversation. It's like we've got the best job in the world because when it's all said and done, we're selling toys and we're selling fun and we're selling entertainment products, and it's always good. What's up with you, man? What's been going on? Nothing. Just work, man. Like I said, we've just been so busy and stuff. The wife's starting a new job. So working on that transition and stuff, kids are always crazy and out of control. I mean, that's two teenage girls, so that's always a nightmare. But pinball world, man, I'm just, I don't know. I'm waiting. I'm wanting a new game. I don't know what I want. I'm kind of in the hunt, which I might have one of these locked down. And this is going to sound ridiculous, but I get very nostalgic sometimes and stuff. And right now, and I'll sell some of my collection. I'll bring in some Data East, and then I'll have a bunch of new modern sterns. But right now, like, I'm feeling this just overabundance that I need some Sam games. so i i'm looking for a star i've owned star trek Steve Ritchie star trek oh man man i probably own that game like three or four times uh i really want one again and i i want an original walking dead pro uh i just i like the way that shoots and it's again it's not necessarily anything about it over the remake or anything the remaster but it's just it's that era it's the nostalgic feel to me of that game and the dumbass call-outs that are horrible and everything about it. So that's my two new games that I think that I'm locked in on until, you know, I get Beetlejuice or, you know, something good comes out from Stern here in the first quarter. Even a little DMD is like a charming retro thing now, right? It is. Everything went to LCD, and it's like I enjoy modern-day pinball, and I enjoy all the modern things that happen as the world evolves, But sometimes you just want to go back just even 10 years. Well, I love I love pin sound. I think it's an amazing product. So I love what you can do with it. But like in my Jurassic Park, in my lost world, like I know how great it sounds. And I know adding, you know, the full score to it from John Williams is just amazing. But sometimes there's something to be said about the shitty, not so well recorded call outs and sounds of those games. It just feels, you know, it's almost like taking, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's almost like, you know, what you said about Winchester, about that old school sound that they put in there. There's something very just whimsical and that just brings a whole different feeling inside your body when you hear some of those old sounds of your childhood. So I have a hard time sticking it, you know, pin sound in some games. That happens to me a lot with like video games, console gaming. I mean, everything now is exact one-to-one music with MP3s and whatnot. But you go back to, like, the Nintendo Entertainment System, and you've got just 8-bit quality music. And it's, like, it's almost trendy now where my kids are listening to it like it's this new thing. I'm like, dude, that is, like, best classic rock of retro gaming. Like, that's what I grew up on is that kind of stuff. Yeah. I agree, man. I like that. All the senses come into play when it comes to nostalgia. I agree. I agree. All right. So you're on the lookout for Walking Dead, Original Pro, potentially. Yeah. Somewhere in that Sam universe you're looking for a game. Yeah. All right. I love that. I like those Sam games, man. Keep us updated. I wanted to take a minute and thank all the new Patreon members. Patreon's bumping, Greg. I mean, not to be plugging it all the time, but it's been such a fun little community for us to hang out with. If you're interested in just kind of behind the scenes and bonus content and insider chat, you can go over to Patreon.com slash Flip N Out Pinball Podcast. And we are there. Hey, Patreon members. Yeah, different ways to support the show. And I want to welcome the newest members. I want to tell you how much I love you, Patreon. I'm just going to talk over Ken and show you all my love my sweet bone love coming at you we're going to pause for station identification I made Ken uncomfortable, look I didn't throw him off his game no, no, I think I'm used to it by now I'm starting to go down that rabbit hole myself but a very warm welcome, an appreciative welcome to Foo Bear, Chappy, Jonathan, Michael, Tycoon coming in at the big tier three level support. Bond entered via a gift membership. So welcome, Bond. Scott, another big dog at tier three ultimate wizard mode. Welcome. Welcome, Scott, Robert and Corey. That's a lot of patrons over the last couple weeks. If you're not on Patreon, I don't know how much I support it or how much I I don't know how I feel about it, but Bond has an extreme love and affection for Jersey Jack pinball that is beyond any other. The ultimate fan of JJP is Bond. It's very interesting. And it's hard because he tries to hide it by absolutely annihilating them in the chat. But I know deep down inside, he's a lover. He's a lover of the JJP and their price model, especially. I bet he has a whole lineup. I bet he's so full of shit and he has an entire lineup. He's got a Wonka, Waz. He's got it all. It'd be awesome. Actually, I think I've seen him say in chat that he's owned or he does own some of the J.J.P. games. You know, hey, company's not doing it for you. You've got every right to kind of voice your opinion. Just keep it tasteful and maybe, you know, you don't have to tone down the rhetoric, but maybe the frequency of the rhetoric. Peel it back a little bit. It is what it is, but you can find out more about the whole chat going on over at patreon.com slash Flippin' Up Pinball Podcast. And then we've got our monthly meetup that's coming up later this month. Greg, we're also going to be announcing the winners of our Halloween contest, the Halloween contest that we ran on our social media. We're going to pick two winners, and we've got prizes. So if you entered that contest, you've got a chance to win probably a better chance of winning that contest than getting a Beetlejuice at this point if you weren't on the list. So listen further in the episode for that. We asked everybody that was listening to the show that had any type of appreciation for it. If you wouldn't mind going to Facebook, because at the time, a couple months ago, we were around 650 followers on Facebook. We were trying to get to a thousand and I was hoping to do that by New Year. Greg, take a guess where we're at right now. Take a guess. We were at 600. How long ago? 650. I want to say like six weeks ago. Oh, OK. And the goal is a thousand by New Year's. I'd say we're at 750, 775. That would be a very good guess. But we are actually at 993 follows on Facebook. So, hey, that's awesome. Oh, we're just right there. Oh, right there. We'll do something special to celebrate the 1,000 follows. So I think that will happen this week. So I appreciate it, everybody. It's been a fun ride here. Greg and myself, we love doing the show for you. And we love doing the show for ourselves because it's just us hanging out, talking pinball, which we do every single day. I was going to say. There's almost a day that doesn't go by I don't talk to you at least once on the phone. I love it. I love it. That's one of the benefits of the job, just talking to my buddies. It is. It is. It doesn't feel like work. I would agree. I would agree. This doesn't feel like work either. That's what makes it great because Zach allows us to do it as part of work. Yeah. Don't feel like I'm working. We're on the clock, people. We're on the clock. I don't know that he likes that we record the show for 10 hours on Wednesdays and we cut it down to 50 minutes, but you know. It is what it is at that point. All right. So let's get down to it. So I know that you kind of brought a topic up to me. What was it, Daygo? And I thought it was a great topic, especially being so timely. And with Spooky Pinball just coming out with Beetlejuice, that game's selling out. Pretty much sold out before it launched. And then whatever they had in queue right over at Spooky headquarters kind of was gone in about 10 minutes. I think they had like 70 or 80 units. I don't even know if it lasted 10 minutes, honestly. If their computers would have been faster, it would have probably been 30 seconds. Yeah. Fair. Yeah, but, you know, so, you know, I was bringing up Ken just because I was on forums, I was on socials, and I was just seeing a lot of stuff brought up about Spooky and kind of this new wave and this new realm that we're setting in right now as a pinball community with these limited games and with their production numbers. And you're kind of seeing people all over the place. You're seeing some people, you know, mainly because they were able to secure a game and get a game. You're seeing them very happy. they're fine with these production numbers. And then on the other side, you've got some people that are just absolutely just angry and so distraught. And, you know, I personally think that the majority of them is because they didn't get a game, but you know, a lot of them are very pissed off and upset and angry that, that a game would be limited. And why would you limit a game? And why is this going on? I need a game. I need you to produce 2000 games. I need this game in my life. and you know and and so i i kind of brought this up to ken and you know i brought up to zach too and you know and it formulated this this discussion about where we're at what has been in the past you know everything going on and there's just so many factors that play into this that a lot of people are not discussing online and not talking about you know you do have a few but most of it's just a back and forth argument about producing numbers and scaling uh and so forth. And to me, that's just that's not always the case. And there's a lot of public perception in pinball with all the companies, all the creators. And I get it. It's fair when you've got you've got so much interest in an area. Naturally, there's going to be talk and speculation. And in fairness, a lot of the companies aren't very transparent. So all you really have to your benefit is your own self-thought and then community think, you know what I mean? And whether you buy into it or you lead it or agree or disagree, that's I think that, yes. And here's just one of the major points is we this seems so relevant now because something really quick. And I don't know. But I mean, we're doing this. We can see each other as we as right now would be a perfect time for you to have that cigar where you take the puff and you kind of you tilt your head and you angle up. You kind of contemplate and thought because I can see it. I can see the thought. I look up a lot. I love it, though. When you're looking up, like, because you always come at things with a different perspective or a fresh thought, something that I would never think of. So, again, I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh, no, no interruption at all. Hey, talk about me all day long, Ken. I will sit here and listen, buddy. What do you think? All bonus content is going to be Ken talking all the greatest features of Greg. Oh, it would be called boneness content. But, yeah, so, you know, like, this feels like something new to people. This is coming across like that it's something that is fresh to this pinball community on these limited number of games. And it's only because we are just now in this predicament of being sold out. Spooky, every one of Spooky's games have been limited ever since they have formed the company. The only game that I feel that they reran was TNA. I think that initially there was like 500, 550 units of TNA. they said there is a potential that we could rerun this game and i think that when they re-ran it there they re-ran it for like 200 units or something so still even at 700 units still very limited and so it was something that no one really batted an eye to very much uh you know i i think that there was a large quantity of um of ultra man and halloween and we'll kind of get into that but you know i think it was what 12 12 or 12 50 combined or something like that for those yeah something yeah something kind of crazy it's still limited though yeah and i believe those sold out but then you know people were very disgruntled about the game the code the way that the game shot which again anyone who is a listener of me will know that i'll always defend halloween and talk about how amazing i feel the game is uh even the guys at Spooky I think kind of make fun of me for my love my pure passion of that game But you know this has been around for a long time Ken It nothing new It's just now on the forefront of people's minds because they can't get a game. Whereas in the past, you could get about any spooky you wanted. Even with Evil Dead, that took, I don't think that Evil Dead, Evil Dead, what was announced in November. And I don't think Evil Dead sold out until March. Yeah. Like, that's crazy. So it's nothing new. And so they're not trying to screw you. They're not trying to do things. I think that Evil Dead game, though, did bring the resurgence of, I mean, and I hate to use the term fair missing out. But, I mean, now when you look at what those games are selling for, new or used, you see the Winchester reveal that kind of followed the coattails of that interest and that extra value. and then now we're running into uh you know beetlejuice is like hold my beer because now i you know arguably that game is going to be uh trading for more than either of those other two games so it's it's it's tough and i think we're i think we're going to be stuck here for a while until there is a failure or a flop uh even then i don't think it's going to hold a lot of people back for the next few games with them being limited but but you know the problem the problem that you run into with Spooky is they are and always have been a very small family-owned, family-ran business. Now, they have grown leaps and bounds. You know, you got to go up there with us this time when we worked on Beetlejuice, and you got to see their expansion of like, hey, we started over here, you know, in the, oh my gosh, what's it called? I keep wanting to call it the refinery, but it's called something, the incubator, which was like a business for you who don't know. Joel and Dana Reeves, they did a really great, it's called Bump in the Night, the spooky pinball story years ago. It's kind of dated now, but it's still a super interesting story. Basically where Charlie started, there's like a community thing in Benton and it was, you know, the town of Benton wanted to help businesses grow and get off the ground. So you had this little space that you could get, I can't remember if it was for free or just very minimal rent to where you could conduct business and be an entrepreneur. And that's where they started. Then they built this building and then they grew more and built this building, built this building. Well, they've reached a point to where that they are very comfortable, I feel, you know, to where that they don't want to sacrifice quality of games. Because I think that they found that out when they were trying to do that run of Ultraman and Halloween, that they maxed themselves out. And you probably saw some sacrifice in quality. You know, possibly the same thing, you know, with some of the Scoobies. Scoobies had some issues. And I think that they learn from that and they go, okay, we know where we're at. We know where we need to comfortably be to make good, reliable games. We know where we are comfortably being able to run a company. Because, Ken, I mean, you worked at a fairly large, to me, I guess would maybe be arguably the second biggest pinball manufacturer in the U.S. or in the world at JJP. You know how, and I'm not saying anything. I'm not taking any of this away from, from JJP. I'm not taking anything away from Stern or anything else, but you, you know how it is when you are a large corporation or you're a large business like that, you just can't call and talk to Gary Stern. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, like those people aren't there. And I think that, that Luke and bug, I think that they're wanting to keep that company to where that they're not inaccessible to where that they are still very hands-on. And I think that that plays a large part into their size. You know, they don't want to scale. Right. They've always they've built a brand and community following just based on small team, family run energy, kind of a handmade Wisconsin product. Humble. Yes. And active in the community, especially on forums and social media. I mean, arguably, they do a better job of trying to keep goodwill relationships with people that a lot of manufacturers, for better or worse, decide that they don't necessarily want to establish a communicative relationship with. So they're kind of outside of the realm in that way, too. That's always been spooky pinball since I can remember. Yeah, exactly. And it's what's built them. And I don't think they want to get away from that. So I guess that's where, and I understand people's concerns and I understand people wanting more games built, but again, they're not doing this out of ill will. They are literally doing it with, to me at least, the best of intentions because, you know, Zach and I have been up there quite a few times filming and working on their promotional videos for their games, trailers, featurette, and so forth. And so, you know, we sat down with those guys quite a bit around the dinner table. uh you know you're filming 12 14 hour days up there working on a shoot with them so there's there's obviously a lot of business conversation back and forth and so so forth going on uh you know about their lives and the company and everything else so you kind of gather and you pick up a lot of insight from those guys doing all that and and so i i you know i'm i'm not trying to defend the fact that yeah you know it would be nice to have more games but at the same time I just, I wish the community was a little more educated and took some of these things into consideration before just like going crazy and harping on that company for not producing more games. And, you know, I think also, man, I'm mixed on this and I kind of want your thoughts. I want to know what you feel on this because this is where it gets a little sticky for me. And, you know, we do see a loss right now in some of our purchases. You know, it's not bad to me. I mean, I think we're kind of back to the pre-COVID times where, you know, you might lose 500 bucks off a game, $1,000 or something here or there off of a new inbox after a little while. But, I mean, I'm kind of torn between having to overpay. You've got these flippers. You've got these people that are flipping games like Beetlejuice, Winchester, Evil Dead. You've got all this going on for a high dollar amount. We saw it back a long time ago when Stern's LEs were more limited. But at the same time, it does create some collectability in the hobby that so many people complain about, which is, again, another odd thing because you've got people complaining that my game doesn't hold value or these are not true collectibles. Like, why can't they be? Why aren't they? And everything. And then we actually have limited products that make them collectible and hold their value. And then everyone's really mad because they can't get that collectible thing. So, you know, where are you at, like, with that? Because I'm mixed. Yeah, it's hard to juggle. And I think that we have to realize, and you just brought it up. You said, you know, if losing some of the value of your game for resale is a concern, you want something that's a little bit more limited and collectible. because obviously it puts you in a better position to, you know, I don't like saying return on investment because, again, I don't like thinking of it in that way. But no, if you're somebody that's turning pins over regularly and you're not bolting something to the floor, I suppose there is a forecast there that you want to you want to see. So there's there's that. But that's not the entire market. There are those that just want to have fun and want to want to own as many games as they can. And where I think the problem might come for Spooky, you know, they've always been the underdog. and it's easy to root for the underdog until until you start winning. And now it's easier to make an excuse to kind of, you know, and I don't want to say root against anybody personally, but it's easy to get angry at somebody like you're making a decision that's wrong. And that when your product goes from being affordably priced and attainable, and then all of a sudden it becomes a little bit more exclusive, it becomes very hard to get. you know if you miss a drop on a game that you're probably going to end up paying out the ass on the back end, at least initially, to try to get one, whether you're buying somebody's flip spot, which I hate. We could talk about that down the line. Or you're buying a game used. So you know, you have this feeling that it's unsettling and it's disappointing. And it might not be as much of a factor on kind of niche themes where you can facilitate around 1,000 people. And if there's a couple hundred people that are left off, you know, it is what it is. It's nature of the beast. But if you have a big theme and there's only going to be a thousand of them, you're going to make more people mad than you are going to make people happy. And that's a really hard thing to juggle. Now, in Spooky's fairness, because I'm a big proponent of the company, I'm a supporter of those guys personally. I love what they're doing up there. They've been very good at keeping the prices low. Yes. They've been very good at communicating clearly. So these lists, another topic, these lists that open up these interest games, it's like Beetlejuice list was open like over a year ago. Yeah. And, you know, that I without getting into specific numbers that I mean, if you weren't in our initial fulfillment, you know, you were probably not going to be able to get a game. But when you factor all these things in, again, I think you're just going to be in a situation where there's going to be groups that you're not going to be able to make happy. The collector market that wants a game that's limited and wants a game that's valuable is happy with what Spooky is doing. Those that just want to play the games, they're disappointed. Maybe not at Spooky, but they're disappointed that they're not going to be able to own a game. I think the correct answer is that there is no correct answer. you have to really look at what spooky is looking to do from a company standpoint if they're happy with where they're at and that's something that you know they haven't changed anything drastically it's the nature of the beast so you're gonna have to do your best to try to to get a game if it's a game that you're interested in it's i support what they're doing i support limited collectability i look i missed that i missed out on winchester and i as well that's a game i wanted yeah that's a game that i knew that was coming and i i still just missed out on it because i underestimated how quickly it would sell out um you know i i missed out on beetlejuice for me it's okay beetlejuice wasn't necessarily a dream theme but as somebody that's been in the hobby for a long time, man, there's something really good about owning something special, owning something limited, owning something that's got some monetary value to it. That's awesome. That's like that's that's a nice pin to have in a collection. But I'm not upset about it. Like I get it because I know there's going to be other opportunities. And it's almost like and not to relate it to crypto currency, but it's like, you know, if you get it in the beginning and you get these little moonshot coins that go crazy, You were in the right place at the right time. It worked out. Kind of similar with pinball. If you were in the right place at the right time, you knew how to get on a list. You were in a better spot with this particular release. Nobody was in any spot with Winchester. It just popped out of nowhere, and you had to react. I like that uncertainty. So I guess maybe I went all over the place. I think your original question was, like, what are my feelings on it? I can understand both sides. Personally, I enjoy it. even though I'm not getting these games that I might want to own, you know what, that's okay. It makes me want to get the next one, and it makes me want to be more alert, and it gets me more engaged. And we're seeing that with customer correspondence right now. People are really jumping in and saying, hey, I don't want to miss out on the next one. What do I need to do? And that's cool. It's obviously great for sales, but from somebody that's been in the community collecting, buying, selling, for me now it's been about 18, 19 years. I think this is kind of what the hobby needs right now. I think it also makes the larger manufacturers that aren't doing this maybe second guess how they're approaching games. Yes. Or maybe how they're approaching the number of limited and highly coveted editions that they're offering. And I think that's interesting to me too. Well, but here – because I agree with basically everything that you're saying. But the only downside to me – let me bring my argument full circle, and then we're going to come right back to this. So first off, just to recap and bring all of that together about Spooky, I think my argument is this isn't necessarily all in their hands. I don't think that they – it is in their hands, so I don't mean it in that aspect. But I don't think – they didn't set out to make a limited collectible thing, I don't think, initially. It was out of necessity because they were a small company. You don't want to grow too fast. You don't want to grow too large. You've got to be very careful about all the overhead. Like you said, they're able to keep games at a very, very good price point. I mean, $9,999 for everything you get in that game is, to me, absolutely insane. And I've heard them on interviews before, whether it be Bug or Luke. The value of the game post-sale is on their mind. They want to have, you know, they don't want somebody to have to lose a lot of money after they buy a game. Yes. That does weigh into their thought process. They're not cognizant of it. Yeah. And so, you know, they're able to keep these. I think a lot of it has to do with keeping the price low because they are a small company. They're in Benton, Wisconsin. You know, I think that, you know, as small as what Benton is, I don't know what other large towns or people would be willing to drive. But I'm sure that you kind of have a little bit of a limited employee, you know, pool there of how big that you could get. You know, you're not setting in Chicago. You're not in a large city. You're not in a big place. You know, so I think stories of people just quitting their jobs and moving to Benton. Yeah, dude, I love it up there. For the record, I look so forward to going to that trip up there. I love that town. I love everything. I love all the construction workers up there. Yeah. Yeah. you know good times it's it's uh it's an interesting like i love the wink that's like yeah i know where you're going with that i know i forget that i can see you and the public can't see right right it's a little different we'll have to talk about that in our uh after hours chat we definitely will oh man good times um but you know it's it's i don't think that they set out to do this i think it's a byproduct that is working in their favor um but i think i don't and i guess that's my argument some of these people tearing them down is it this wasn't something they set out to do and and to set these this standard of limiting these games they just always have done it um they're they're very fiscally responsible in my opinion they're they're actually for two young guys they're very business savvy in that aspect of not being greedy and not trying to overdo and trying to take over the world necessarily, or at least at this point. All of this could change, and I'm kind of speaking for them, but it's just my own thoughts. I think where their biggest conundrum is going to be right now is not the business not the viability of the business not their ability to sell games that are valuable and collectible It going to be they going to be trapped I trying to think of it They're going to be trapped between like preserving their identity and managing community outrage. I can't get this. Agreed. They're almost like the supreme of pinball. Yes. Where it's like very small and kept it small because that's their goal. and and i also know how responsive they are to community feedback so it's like how how do you how do you juggle it it's going to be tough and i i think it's just going to be a learning curve for them to navigate it in the future because i this is all fairly new to them so you know i think it'll say a lot about how they navigate it in in the future uh for sure but so back back to your original thing five minutes ago i agree with everything you said about pricing and about you know, collectability and holding value and everything else. My only thing that, that is a drawback to me, uh, is if other manufacturers catch on or, or you have Stern that, that starts to do these ultra limited gear. I don't know. Stern's a little different cause you're still gonna have your pros and premiums, but I'm just nervous about where the market is going to go. Cost wise. Is this going to really drive up the cost on some things? Will we see other manufacturers who didn't necessarily limit a game, you know, limit that game and charge more? Or what if JJP would have not kept Harry Potter's open and would have limited just the CE or limited the CE? Well, supposedly that's going to happen here in the next, I don't know. Isn't that supposed to be limited at some point? Oh, it's going to have to be. They're going to have to cut off to where it's limited. But you know what I'm saying? Out of the gate and said, hey, we're only selling 500 CEs, that sort of thing. Can you imagine where that price point, what they could have charged for the game? They could have put $30,000 probably on that game at one point and been able to sell it. I don't even doubt it at all. In fact, when Guns N' Roses CE came out, it was October 2020. There were 500 of those. And at some point, those were new in box, like $20,000, $23,000. The market has since dipped just because there's a million Guns N' Roses of all different types out there. But that CE was still limited. Yeah, exactly. And so that's the only worrisome thing to me is where is it going to drive price points of some games? Because, you know, it's fine to an extent. I'm not wild about flippers by any means. We actually try to discourage that within flipping out. And there's measures that we try to take. It's very hard to police. We won't go into all of that. But, you know, we try to discourage that. and to, you know, not we, we, we were enthusiasts first. We want people to be enthusiastic first. But when you do have a limited support of capitalism, it's hard. Yeah. We just want to aid you in, in taking something that somebody would, would appreciate so that you could flip it for a buck, but it's just nature of the beast. It's what the market is right now. Like, and I get that. I do. It is. So that's why we, while we try to limit it, we're not advocates for it. It's just the way of the world. You know what I'm saying? It's what the market is. It allows right now for that. Yeah. Anytime you have a limited product like that, there's not really going to be any way. I mean, you know, Ferrari, I know that everybody gets in a car shit. Ferrari is very strict. And somebody brought that up to me. And they're like, well, look at Ferrari. Ferrari's able to limit what you do with their cars, what accessories you put on there, the things you do, because they won't allow you to buy another Ferrari again. Like you'll just be fucking banned. And like, I think even maybe on the used market, if they catch you with a Ferrari, they have legal realms that they can go down to fucking take your car, I guess. I don't know. But, you know, interesting little side thing with Ferrari. I was talking to Tom Kopera. He's the CEO at Jersey Jack Pinball. And we were talking about limited this and limited that. This is when I was working over there and we were we brought up Ferrari and I didn't know this Ferrari. Like, for instance, if they do a run of 500 cars, each one of them says one of 500, which Zach would love because there's no custom plaques. So everybody has one of 500 and every every car is one of 500. So that's going to meet. I like it. And it makes sense. Everybody's got one. And it's not it's not a lie. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, it's hard to police that with with people and then a pinball community, something larger. You know, your buyer pull for, you know, for Ferrari is not overreaching. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, it's hard to control that sort of thing. But, yeah, I just I'm scared about where prices would go because it's fine if Spooky, let's say they kept their games at $10,000. Let's say they even bumped them up to $11,000 just because we're seeing inflation. We're seeing a market increase. You know, I would expect that they have some, you know, maybe not $1,000, maybe $500. I expect some price increase from them, not because of this, but just because of inflation and parts cost and labor cost and so forth. But, you know, you're running the risk of a manufacturer now going, oh, okay, we're going to keep this game limited at 500 to 999 units. But now instead of a $10,000 game or an $11,600 game, it's going to be $15,000 for this game. We're going to capitalize on that capitalism, and we're going to make money on our end instead of flippers. We're going to limit the buyer pool ourself and make more money. I think that is probably something that really influenced price increases going back years ago. I do, too. And I think the most companies that saw, hey, we're leaving money on the table, especially on limited editions and that kind of thing. It's like, why? I mean, we're the ones that took all the risk, a couple million dollars into a license. We've got staff. We've got families to feed. So, you know, naturally, it's like, hey, we're going to bump the price a little bit here. And one, it cuts down on the flipping. And two, it keeps some of that money, you know, in-house instead of letting the market. But, you know, it's a catch-22 also. I also can see where this ebbs and flows, where right now people might be – some people might be in panic mode because they're thinking, I'm never going to get a highly coveted pinball machine again from these companies that I support because they're so limited and I've got to figure it out. But, you know what? I wouldn't be surprised if there's a dip where it's just not cool to have something super exclusive anymore or the prices creep up to where same thing that happened in the past. History repeats itself. Prices creep up where even at a thousand units, not saying spooky or anybody, but but it's like, OK, well, you know what? I'll take a pass on this. It's it's too much money for what it is. Now you're like forced appreciating the hobby. It's you know, you look at the chart and you've got, you know, the dips in the in the peaks. We'll see. But here – and sorry if I'm dragging this conversation out too much. Well, this is the podcast conversation, man. So where do we head? You probably need to drag it for another 15 minutes or so, and then we can put a nice little bow on this one. Perfect. Perfect. This might last that long. So, you know – You know what I appreciate, though, man? It's not like – we're not sitting here with this outline of notes. This is just a genuine – like a genuine conversation that you brought up. Yeah, right. Like the notes are in the head. So, you know, it might not be as polished with the delivery, but it's genuine. and it's true and oh yeah you might make you are truly getting our thoughts like i i i made ken aware that zach zach is used to dealing with me ken obviously is not because we didn't really record together ever but you know ken you know i was like i got this outline got everything i'm like i don't give a fuck ken i don't care like i'm so used to doing show notes but now i was like yeah maybe i won't that messes me up like i i literally want the conversation to be as like you said it's not as polished maybe not as fluid as what it should be but i you know if you have too much thought sometimes, or at least that's the way it works for me. Things are too scripted. And I like literally that genuine conversation about here. Here's the thought that literally just popped into my head about this. And I want to blurt it out. It's almost like a problem. I have to. It's exactly right. I always have three or four thoughts in my head. And it's like and by the time I get to my first one, I've already forgotten the other three and tries me absolutely insane. that's why i've i've really tried to write stuff down on a notepad yeah just so i can go back dude i'll write that shit down and go back and be like what was i talking about there like i i still don't remember it so anyways you have a different or different because like i got a thought and i and i'm doing it right now it's like i got a thought i can't forget it because if i don't shout it out right now it's it's lost forever it's in the ether hard drive's full greg incoming information something's got to go you cut me off anytime dude cut me off anytime because you you and zach you you guys have a different responsibility than me i'm just like color commentary like i'm i'm you guys are leading a show so that's a very different realm to you know flow and stuff so i understand if you guys need outlines you need notes i get it because i'm just i'm there to rift off of whatever you guys are saying that's that's what you're bringing the heat man and uh and i would argue that that i mean i appreciate that but it's like for me to throw an intro and an outro out and then i just i hand the show over to you buddy and i just follow your coattails i hate intros and outros So do it live. I appreciate you so much on that, that realm. Um, but so back to the point that you made earlier, um, just because I thought I made earlier, cause I already forgot it. I'll bring it up to you. I've got a memory like an elf. I used to not anymore. I'm getting too old and it's bleeding whole other different story. But, um, you know, I, I, you brought up about people, you know, the investment that you don't like to call this an investment. You don't like to do this or that with that. I've never looked at this hobby as an investment. And I think that we had a lot of new people within, you know, especially around the COVID area that really got into this hobby. And people did start to look at it as an investment. Yep. And it's no way been that way. Like, I've got a good friend that I'll have lunch with every now and then. And he's a big Led Zeppelin fan. And, you know, when Led Zeppelin came, he was like, should I get that game, man? You know, because I figured if I kept it, you know, like it's Led Zeppelin and it'll appreciate for collector. I'm like, no, not at all. This is not that kind of hobby. so so don't do that uh the one and i'm coming full circle again with this conversation here in a minute but i i personally did look at it as a uh a depreciation uh safe haven in a sense uh because even when i got into pinball around 2015 you would lose a minimal amount off of pinball machine happy 10 year anniversary by the way oh thank you sir thank you thank you we were about the same time you you were in arcades and stuff but that was about the round that was about time you got into pinball wasn't it i was like 2006 is when i started oh that's okay congratulations on like 30 years ken no it's like i'm out now i've done my job and i'm not gonna pass towards but you know i it wasn't like when you go buy a piece of furniture you buy anything else in your life and literally you got to sell it at a yard sale for 25 or even 50 of what you bought it for You did see kind of a small, minimal, even though it might have been $500 or $1,000, you, for the most part, saw a minimal depreciation of a pinball machine. Yeah, diminished depreciation. Yeah, for sure. Or you could literally trade it, for the most part, if you were trading a pro for a pro or something like that, premium for a premium, depending on what title it was, you could almost do a straight-up trade, maybe a couple hundred bucks. There's just not a lot that you can do that with. Even a car, a car depreciates very quickly. There's nothing else. So I always looked at it as kind of a depreciation safe haven, never an investment. But I think, and this is where I'm coming full circle with this. I think. But people look at these as like speculative assets now. Yeah, but they should. It's like, where do I think this game's going to be worth in like a year when I'm ready to sell it? And I get it because no one wants to lose their ass. You want to lose the minimal amount of money. So I completely understand. But you can't go into. And you don't lose anything unless you sell it. Yes, 100%. you're exactly right but i think that so i think that what the problem you get into because you brought up a very and this is what made me start thinking about and the wheels start turning a little bit is what you brought up about guns and roses ce we're seeing this with pirates some pirates is a very one-off because it's super limited and not really able to find those games because it didn't sell very well but i think that when you start to buy these games isn't it this is where that double-edged sword comes in with this is in the short term and it could be the long term you just don't know from title title i think i know you're going with this and i'm going to give you the biggest thumbs up so go good good so you have you have a beetlejuice and let's say beetlejuice goes up and starts hitting fifteen thousand dollars for that you buy that beetlejuice for fifteen thousand dollars well you have paid fifteen thousand dollars for that game you did not pay ten thousand dollars for that game so you're only going to go downhill now so let's say in a year that's now worth 13 000 because people have played it settles in the middle there's more out there exactly because still 900 something games that's limited but it's not like 250 games and so now and also there's the next limited hot commodity that's come out exactly so things will naturally kind of decrease and depreciate like that right so now you have lost basically what you would have lost on a 3,000 unit, 5,000 unit run game. But here's the problem. Often, to me, you have more of a risk of a loss on games that go up to a significantly over MSRP value because just like you said with GNR, that starts to now settle down around MSRP or maybe lower. So now we're naturally on a 3,000 game run or a 5,000 game run. you might have lost $1,000, $2,000 on a higher end, you know, Jersey Jack or something else, maybe a little more. Now you're $5,000, $6,000, $7,000 in the hole from what you bought that game if you held on to it too long. Yeah, yeah. You know? It's brilliant. And I think you'll see that, and I think you're already seeing this, like Pirates of the Caribbean. If you pay $30,000, $35,000 for that game, look at where you're. I mean, it's worth whatever anybody will buy it for. But, yeah, I don't think that that's the perceived value of that game anymore. And I think as more limited games come out, just the limited nature and hype around the game, they're going to dip a little bit. Exactly. And here's the great thing that I've noticed, and Zach and I had this discussion, and even he was like, oh, fuck, dude, this is a really good point. Premiums, especially pros on Stern at least, and honestly a lot of other games, they hit a plateau. They hit a place to where it don't matter if you've got 500 plays or you have 6,000 plays. There almost becomes a plateau to where, oh, it's still a pinball machine. I don't give a shit if it's got high plays or stuff. I'm going to pay that amount. You know what I'm saying? It hits a particular area. Maybe $4,800 or something for a pro, $5,000 for a pro, depending on the title. I would say $5,000 to $55,000 on some things. It just really doesn't want to move much below that because it's still a pinball machine and still worth buying and playing at that price, if that makes sense. So that that it's kind of this, like I said, a double edged sword about getting this limited thing that you perceive as an investment versus just your run of the mill pinball machine that's mass produced. you know it'd be neat to really follow those statistics and keep track of numbers to see where you know what game actually would lose you more value in a two-year span pinball market trends oh man yeah so sorry for that rant that might have been over 15 minutes but no you know what it is though it just taking another perspective and looking at it through a different lens that what i appreciate you know talking to you stuff because I don necessarily think of it I think when it all said and done here Spooky they not doing anything wrong. They're true to their roots. The market's kind of dictating the price based on demand. Spooky for right now, I don't know if they scale or not, but it's like they've been true to their roots. Be on the lookout. But Ken, this is what's got them there. You know, if they would have came out of the gate instead of producing 250 Rob Zombies or whatever and doing that stuff, and they would have came out of the gate and said, hey, you know what, guys, we're doing 600 games. Like, you know, we feel good. It would have probably tanked their company. You know, they've always built up very smart. Like, I've always had the utmost amount of respect for Charlie, you know, especially Luke and Bub once they really were taking it over. I always had the utmost respect for them to not get greedy and to not go against what has worked for them. So it's so easy in just our general everyday life to take something and go tenfold. You'll see companies do that. It's like, oh, I got one successful restaurant or something, so I'm going to open one or two. That is good. Now it's like they try to open 14 and then they fail. Oh, of course. You know, yeah. And I've seen companies where, you know, maybe you're struggling a little bit and you get you get a little bit of success and you get this certain level of confidence, arrogance and moxie and it works to your detriment. You know what I mean? It's like you need to remember what got you there. You need to remember the roots and, you know, just be smart about it. Be careful. So, yeah, I don't know what they do with the next release. If they charge more money, if they make more units, if they don't charge any more money and they keep the same amount of units. I don't know, but I can tell you this because of the brand loyalty and because of them listening to feedback regarding themes that people are asking for. They've built this this loyalty and this built in. FOMO, I mean, yeah, people are already looking to get on that next game. This game has not even gone on the line. People are asking to be put on the list for the next game and they're asking where they are on the list, which please. Can we talk about that for just a quick second? yes it's like it's like let me let me put this in perspective unless you want to put in perspective no but my whole thing is this it's like and just to kind of set up the scenario against what we probably would have done originally we've opened up the i don't even want to say it on the podcast because it's just going to result in like 900 emails but we opened up the manufacturer interest list for spooky's next title typically we would only take a rumor title so if you're like hey i want to be on die hard could you put me on die hard no problem And for the record, we're not doing this for any other company than Spooky right now. So please do not email us. Please do not call in saying, I want to be on this manufacturer's next title. We're not doing it that way. We have reasons why that it's only Spooky right now. So please don't do that. Only title specific, just for the record. Right. Perfect. Perfectly said. Kind of an experiment to see. But, yeah, so you can email us, Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com, Greg at FlippinOutPinball.com, and say, hey, could you put me on Spooky's list for their next release? Again, Beetlejuice isn't even on the line. We've got this interest list that's building for their next release that's going to be in over a year, which is one thing. But now we've got people asking where they're at on the interest list from, like, what's my number? And it's like the reason that we don't really share the number publicly is because, and Zach has spoken about this in the past, it's all relative. And to give you an example, if I tell you that, hey, you are number 25 on our list, what does that really tell you? Well, all right, it tells you that you're the 25th person in line. But we don't know how many games are being made from a manufacturer. We don't know what our allotment is from a manufacturer. And being number 100 on our list might put you in a better position of getting a game than being number 10 on another distributor's list. So we're reluctant to kind of say the number because it doesn't say it doesn't tell you anything. All it really does is it causes you to speculate because naturally. If I tell you what number you are, what's your next question, Greg? It's going to be, well, how many games are you going to get? Exactly. No, we have no clue. It creates a false sense of perception within myself because let's just use that 100 scenario again. You tell me I'm number 100 and I'm like, oh, my God, man, I have no chance. Sounds terrible, doesn't it? But the number 10 on the other list where the guy might only get 12 games, you're actually further along in the run and everything else. So even being 100 on our list might get you your game much sooner than being on number 10 on someone else's list because they're only getting allotment of 12 games. And you're two games off from the end of their fulfillment. You see what I'm saying? 100%. 100%. So I had two people that reached out and I'm not going to get into who it was or whatever that got their number from another distributor on Beetlejuice. And they were so confident about it because it was less than 10. And then they came to us and they're like, is there any way you can get us on the list? Because I was told that I would be in. And then I just I they said that I was out because they didn't get that many games. And like you said, we don't know what our allotments will be. And if we tell you a number, we also don't know how successful the title will be or what that title will be. So it could be a title that just doesn't appeal to a lot of people. So a lot of people, you know, even though you're 100, 30 people might drop off that list in front of you because it just wasn't the title they were expecting or what they wanted. So now you're down to number 70 on our list. You've moved up, but you're still in your head. You're still upset that you're number 100. Yeah. So that again, like what Ken said, that's multiple factors of why that we don't really announce and we don't talk about or, or relay what position you are. And especially, again, don't reach out about what number you are on a list for a game that has not been announced that we know nothing about. You know, when there's a game in front of it, that's not even on the line. I mean, yes. Yes. It's just one of those. I mean, we appreciate the interest and we appreciate the enthusiasm and everything we can to earn your business. But I mean, let's let's kind of put it in perspective and throttle back a little bit. Yeah. And then the other the other small requests that I have, just just personal. Zach probably yell at me for bringing it up because Zach wants to make everybody happy. And I love that about him. But it's like if somebody emails me with like fifty five games interest lists that they want to be on. It's a lot of it's a lot of data entry. Yes. So if you need to be put on a list for 50 games, I'm going to give you my address and tell you what bottle of bourbon I prefer around Christmas. I like it. I like it. That's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. You buy us off. I'm not joking. Yeah, we want cigars or bourbon if you need over five games. And it's like, and if you want to increase on that list a little bit, you want to go up 20 spots. Oh, shit. Here's something I've been. No, I'm just joking. Zach would die. Zach would die. What was the other thing that I wanted to talk about with that? Oh, the other thing was simply this with with the with us not really disclosing numbers and where you are on the list and that sort of thing. we you know we do understand that that might not be ideal for some people and for some people that works it's just the way that we do it a flipping out pinball so you know again if it's not ideal for you we apologize but just know that we've got your best interests in mind and we're trying to get you on that list and we do everything that we can to get a game there's not ever been a game that really comes out where we're not working with the distributors to or working with the manufacturers to see if we can you know even get more games you know we we've it's what we want to do. It's great for sales. It's great for our community and it's great for our customer base. And that's number one at Flippin' Up Pinball. Go to FlippinUpPinball.com and check out our entire inventory of new games and entertainment devices. FlippinUpPinball.com. All right, Greg. So I know we were looking at these Halloween contest entries on Facebook. Thanks for everybody that participated. It was fun. Some of the costumes were amazing. Some of them were unsettling. Some of them, I didn't understand what they were, and I'm pretty sure one or two people didn't dress. But it was great to see the people participating. Zach at FlippinOutPinball.com, our company, graciously has offered some prizes that we're going to offer. And I don't know who's going to get what, so it's just going to be kind of randomized in the mail here. And we're going to give out three prizes. Two of them are going to be pinball banners from Stern Pinball. and one of them is going to be a mando shooter rod you like that i like it so if you get the shooter rod and you don't have a mando you can contact us flipping up pinball.com order that mandalorian pin pinball machine because guess what you already have the shooter rod absolutely you like that and so if you get a banner let's just say an elvira banner come by an elvira to match your banner. That's right. See the psychological thing going on here? It's like we're giving you things that you could only really fully appreciate if you own the main product that's linked to them. So where we try to pretend that we cloak this as if we were giving you a prize, we're really opening up the entry to want to buy a pinball machine. Zach taught us all these psychological manipulative techniques. We're right. It's like the MKUltra of pinball going on right here. We're going to, it's, it's a big experiment. So this, this whole, this whole podcast is about Win Schilling, manipulating you into purchasing games. So, and then joining Patreon. Good times. All right. So you want to, you want to announce these winners? Let's do. Yeah. Start with the third and we'll go to the runner up and then the. Yep. Go for it, man. Oh no, you go. All right, Greg. So I'm going to announce the coming in third place. Then again, this is just our quirky personal preferences. this costume was unique, ingenuitive and very terrifying and that was Peter who did the shark man costume I don't know what that was but that's like something that nightmares are made of and that dude's out on his front porch handing out Halloween candy to probably kids that will never trick or treat again what'd you say he was Nacho Libre mixed with a shark that's crazy it's so nuts If you haven't seen it, go to our Facebook page. And while you're there, follow it. Scroll down to the Halloween Pinball Contest entries and look at Sharkman. Very, very terrifying. So good job, Peter. You're going to get the Mandalorian shooter rod because that's just an odd thing to give you. And hopefully you get some enjoyment out of it. Yeah. And for all you winners, please, just up front, message Ken or I your addresses so we can make sure to get these prizes out to you guys. Yes. And we will verify to make sure somebody doesn't sneak in there. Probably the best way to keep this separate from work. Just email us at flipping out pinball podcast at Gmail dot com. I do have that account kind of set up for social stuff. So flipping out pinball podcast at Gmail dot com. And we'll get you taken care of. And that brings us to our runner up. And that would be Mr. Josh. Him and his lovely lady companion were both dressed up as Gambit and Rogue from the fantastic uncanny x-men oh that was a really well done costume oh and i like that they tanned them it that was pretty sweet and it was spot on dude her hair was perfect like the outfits were his hair was perfect for gambit like his his entire like silhouette and feature is perfect for gambit um yeah i was i was i i just kept being captivated and like drawn to about like how great and how spot on those two costumes were yeah there was a lot of effort in there so nicely done congratulations number two and then greg you got uh the grand prize i think unanimously ken this was this was so hands down good this was this was just dude it took me by such surprise and it's one of those photos hey if you listeners go back go back to that post and you got to click on this to even see what i mean you see what it is but just to see what's going on but uh jameson and And he is the Liberty Mutual emu, emu man and the emu. His companion is the emu. And it's perfection. It is so good. His stance, his look. I'm looking at it right now and I can't stop laughing and smiling. He's a good dude too, man. I think we've spoken to him on a couple occasions. Yeah. Nice guy. Fantastic human being. I had the pleasure to meet him actually at Expo. And I didn't realize who it was until we picked winners, and I clicked on his profile, and I was like, holy shit, I know who that is. Right, right. So there were no personal bias. No, no, no. Otherwise, I would probably have awarded prizes to you and Zach, just out of my personal bias. I know. And I have to give an honorary shout-out to someone who's actually – it's a fantastic costume and everything, but she is a good personal friend too. But Tracy, she did – she was the actual – the chick from King Kong. like from the pinball machine i didn't see that it's yeah it took me a minute to figure out what was going on there um but yeah that was really nicely done yeah the eighth wonder um or whatever like it's such a you know just spot on and it fits pinball so well uh it was really good too i loved it it's funny because while you're kind of going over these uh winners i'm scrolling through the page again just to see if i might have missed another honorable honorable mention i can't i keep stopping at peter shark man cost it's scary i know you love that shark costume it's so weird That would be like, you know what? Remember when we were out in Galena and we were saying that that 510 Federal Airbnb that we were convinced was haunted? Can you imagine Sharkman coming out of the closet at 3 a.m.? He lives down over the hill in the river. He comes out of the river. Oh, my gosh. It's like an X-Files episode. He just like slothers himself all up the hillside. It is crazy. The 510. It is nuts. I might have to click on this guy's personal profile at some point and see what's going on there. It's well, he's got a anyways. All right. Congratulations to the winners. We appreciate everybody checking it out. All right, Greg, that's going to wrap up episode number 14, flipping out pinball podcast. You know, love, love doing these episodes with you and love everybody that's able to tune in and listen each and every week. Again, if you're looking for a brand new pinball machine, new and use, you can go to flip the letter N out to pinball. That's flipping out pinball dot com. We have everything from pinball machines, big buck hunters, golden tees. It's all there. Go check it out. You can also find the podcast page at Facebook. We're at 997 followers. Trying to get to 1,000. If you get a chance, go to Facebook, Flippin' Up Pinball Podcast. Drop us a like. You can also find us on YouTube. We're going to talk about YouTube another time. And you can find us on Instagram, X, all those good places. Check us out there. If you want to communicate, you need anything from us personally, from Flippin' Up Pinball, you can contact Greg at FlippinOutPinball.com or Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com. Reach out to us. we will do our best that we can to facilitate your needs and wants. And if you have anything that's just kind of podcast related, if you don't mind, you can ping us at flipping out pinball podcast at gmail.com. So there's several different ways to contact us and I will put all that into the show notes. And then finally, patreon.com slash flipping up him all podcast. If you want to get a little bit more inside scoop daily interaction, which is always fun. I know Greg, you're dropping into the chat. I've been leaving almost daily audio segments to keep everybody informed and entertained along the way, it's a good time so for Greg Bone, I am Ken Cromwell don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball so long everybody