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Poormans Holiday Spectacular!

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·analyzed·Dec 20, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Pinball hosts debate Spooky's QC issues, Scooby-Doo value, and predatory secondary market pricing.

Summary

A holiday episode of Poor Man's Pinball Podcast discussing value in pinball, with focus on Spooky Pinball's Scooby-Doo release and quality control issues. Hosts and guests critique pricing, secondary market flipping, and debate whether Spooky has transitioned from startup to established manufacturer. Strong emphasis on code quality problems in Halloween and discussion of fair pricing vs. speculative reselling.

Key Claims

  • Spooky Pinball had a critical software bug in Halloween that caused an infinite loop and fired all coils when an invalid game mode was selected

    high confidence · Tim Lee detailed personal experience with Halloween machine; provided technical explanation of the mode selection bug and how it was caused by missing error handling in code

  • Scooby-Doo Collector's Edition pricing is approximately $10,000 with tiering around $1,000 between Pro/Premium/LE levels

    high confidence · Drew confirmed pricing structure; Tim Lee verified gameplay is identical across tiers, only cosmetic differences

  • Spooky manufactures approximately 100 games per month (1,200 annually), while Stern produces 200-400 games per week

    medium confidence · John Hall made comparison during discussion of whether Spooky should still be considered a startup/boutique company

  • Spooky deliberately holds first 30 units of new games with trusted operators for extended quality testing before general release

    high confidence · Drew cited Zach (from Flippin' Out Pinball/Spooky) confirming this practice; Madison location mentioned as example

  • Rick and Morty (designed by Scott Danesi) was well-received without reported quality issues, unlike Halloween

    medium confidence · Tim Lee and Drew discussed Rick and Morty's success relative to Halloween; attributed to Danesi's hardware expertise and Rick and Morty selling out in a day

  • Medieval Madness remake was listed for sale for $30,000 new in box on secondary market

    high confidence · Drew cited specific example on Pinstripe (secondary market platform) as egregious pricing/flipping behavior

  • Scooby-Doo has sold approximately 1,500-1,600 units with only 100-200 remaining in initial production run

    medium confidence · Drew citing Zach's estimate; indicates strong early demand

Notable Quotes

  • “When I selected the mode that was not supposed to be enabled, it was a negative one. And the code did not have a condition to handle anything other than the modes...it just sat there and spun and didn't know what to do with the negative one...it fired every coil in the game.”

    Tim Lee @ N/A — Detailed technical explanation of critical Halloween software bug; demonstrates entry-level coding error in production game

  • “I think that's where we're at. I think that's the big discussion. The loyalists and the fanboys are starting to hold them more accountable to that.”

    John Hall @ N/A — Captures tension between Spooky's supporter base and those expecting mature manufacturer standards

  • “Can they be a boutique and not a startup? I mean, they might always be a boutique company. That's a good point. I just don't think they're a startup anymore.”

    Tim Lee @ N/A — Key distinction that separates boutique/niche manufacturer status from startup status; central debate of episode

  • “These $20,000, $30,000 games, just stop. Just stop. Don't do it. I'm tired of it...Whoever's selling that, I don't even care if he's famous or podcast famous. Fuck you.”

    Drew @ N/A — Strong community sentiment against speculation and flipping in secondary market; reflects broader collector frustration

  • “They stood up, they were like, hey, we're learning, we're doing this thing. They owned it and they said, look, we're learning as we go.”

    Drew @ N/A — Positive acknowledgment of Spooky's transparency about quality issues; contrasts with manufacturers that deny problems

  • “I 100% feel like they're a startup company and they may not be charging startup company prices, but I mean, well, they are, though.”

    John Hall @ N/A — Highlights pricing criticism—Spooky charging mid-tier manufacturer prices while maintaining startup-level QC

Entities

Spooky PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyScooby-DoogameHalloweengameTim LeepersonJohn HallpersonDrewpersonSpooky Lukeperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Halloween machine experienced critical software bug causing infinite loop and coil fire cascade when invalid game mode selected; entry-level coding error (missing error handling) that disabled machine for 20+ seconds

    high · Tim Lee's detailed technical account of the bug, including mode value handling failure and emergency patch deployment

  • ?

    product_concern: Multiple Spooky titles (Halloween, Domino's, America's Most Haunted) reported code and mechanical failures at expo events; indicates systemic QC issues across product line

    medium · John Hall reported Halloween broken twice at expo; mentioned trap ball issues and other mechanical/code problems on multiple Spooky titles

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Spooky doubled employee count in approximately 2 years; now producing ~100 games/month (1,200/year); ramping production capacity significantly

    medium · John Hall cited employee doubling; Drew confirmed Spooky is 'cranking out some games' and 'trying to make as many as possible every week'

  • $

    market_signal: Predatory pricing on secondary market for rare/LE games ($20,000-$30,000 for Medieval Madness remake, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc.); community frustration with speculative flipping

    high · Drew's strong criticism of Pinstripe listings; specific example of Medieval Madness remake at $30,000; discussion of new collectors buying to flip for profit

  • ?

    product_launch: Spooky intentionally holds first 30 units for extended testing with trusted operators (e.g., Madison location near factory) before general distribution to identify quality issues early

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.222

0:00
I don't want a lot for Christmas. There is just one thing I need. I don't care about the presents underneath the Christmas tree. I just want you for my own. More than you could ever know. Make my wish come true. All I want for Christmas is Drew! Hey guys, did you like my singing? Pretty good, huh? Just wanted to say before we start this episode, happy holidays to everyone. Merry Christmas, happy Kwanzaa, happy Hanukkah, whatever you're celebrating. Hope that you get to spend time with your family. I hope it's enjoyable and I really hope it's safe. We want to see all you guys in 2023. And thank you once again for another great year of Poor Man's Pinball Podcast in 2022. Thank you so much to our sponsors, Flipping Out Pinball, Zach, Nicole, Family, and Greg, everyone over there flipping out. Have a have a happy holiday. Pinballprices.com, Doc Finlay. It's still the holidays, but that man needs a beer. So go to pinballprices.com. Check out all the pinball prices for all the sales, buying, selling. Go check it out. Hit the donate button. Buy Doc a beer. On with the show. Welcome to the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. This is episode 132. We have a great show for you today. We got a couple of guest hosts. What's on tap today? We got what is value in pinball? More reactions, discussions on Scooby Doo and manufacturers. Are you listening? Plus much, much more. Get ready for it.
1:56
Today, I'm happy to announce I have two, two tribe members with us. We got John Hall and we got Tim Lee. How are you guys? I'm doing great. How are you guys?
2:34
So, you know, the Packers are playing. It's Monday night, but we're recording episode 132. I'll watch the highlights and cry in my beer later. Or not the highlights, yeah. Yes. So, speaking of which, John Hall, you're Titans, man. Yeah, that was rough yesterday. No, but I mean, they're having a great year, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're going to see the playoffs, right? Yeah. They're not what I would say are, like, poised for a late playoff run, you know? Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Scott Danesi. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, I'm going to be talking about a game that has really good code, really fun gameplay. Mechs sometimes matter, other times they don't. I just want a fun game that shoots well, has some mechs, and they have to be good at a reasonable price. We can get into that discussion later, but my reasonable price is like the $7,000 to John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. And learn more at all الذ 되는데irdenews.com
Zach Sharpe
person
Scott Danesiperson
Rick and Mortygame
Godzilla Premiumgame
Guardians of the Galaxygame
Medieval Madnessgame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame
Alice Coopergame
TNA 2.0game
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Pinball Priceswebsite
Mike Williamsperson

high · Drew citing Zach's confirmation of practice; Madison referenced as example location

  • ?

    community_signal: Community sentiment shift toward holding Spooky accountable to non-startup standards as production scales; debate over whether they should still be classified as startup/boutique

    high · Central discussion theme; John Hall and Tim Lee disagreeing on definition but agreeing QC must improve; repeated statements like 'they need to fix them' and 'they can't have the startup problems anymore'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Spooky enthusiasts praised for transparency in admitting Halloween issues, but loyalty is becoming conditional on demonstrable QC improvements; fear of losing goodwill if problems persist

    high · Drew: 'They owned it...100% credit for that'; also: 'if every game has issues...they keep losing some of that goodwill...that can make or break a business'

  • ?

    code_update: Spooky released emergency patch for Halloween infinite-loop bug; subsequent code updates reported to have had new issues

    high · Tim Lee confirmed emergency patch deployment; Drew noted 'latest Halloween patch hasn't been very good. It's had some issues.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spooky credited with creating 'best third level playfield in pinball'; ramp access noted as slightly clunky but community support helping improve functionality

    medium · Hosts praised third level design as innovative; acknowledged ramp access issues but noted community has helped optimize (Spooky fan base provided adjustment guidance)

  • ?

    product_strategy: Scooby-Doo priced with approximately $1,000 gaps between Pro/Premium/LE tiers; CE offered at $2,000 premium over Pro for cosmetics only; unlimited production on CE (no scarcity model)

    high · Drew confirmed tiering; Tim Lee verified gameplay identical across tiers; noted unlimited CE production (no FOMO/limited edition strategy)

  • ?

    collector_signal: Community sentiment that reasonable markup on resale is acceptable (e.g., $1,500-2,000 profit on machine played 1,000+ times), but speculative flipping with minimal play time is predatory

    medium · Drew described selling Simpsons with 1,000+ plays for ~$2k profit as reasonable; condemned flipping machines after 50-100 plays at $20k-30k markups as greed

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Scott Danesi (Rick and Morty designer) credited with superior hardware expertise compared to other Spooky designers; Rick and Morty sold out in one day with strong reception

    medium · Tim and Drew discussed Danesi's 'much better grasp on hardware and different things' and that 'he's been doing this for quite a while'; contrasted with other Spooky personnel needing to send instructional videos to customers

    • 5:29
    You know that little raccoon thing that I've never seen the movie which is funny. Fires the ball at you, it has a group. It's a rocket shot. Yeah, yeah. Shoots the ball out at you if you lock group. It has a pretty cool scoop. It has a stand up shot on the left. Really good and reasonable code that I can get to. I can get to the end of the game. You can get them used for $6,000 or under. All of these are pretty good value for what you get there. 9,000 Godzilla versus a $6,000 to $6,500 Guardians of the Galaxy? We could argue which- I would agree with that. There is a lot in that game. Same question to you, John Hall. What do you value in pinball? I love what Tim said about all that. I think that what I value changes every day. I'm not good at, I would play forever to see the end of Guardians, I think, you know, but I'm starting to learn like what I value for longevity. And so like the investment is all about like the longevity of how long I want to keep a game, how long it's going to keep my interest, how long it's going to keep my friends' interests, people that come over and play. So, yeah, Godzilla Premium is first in the row for a reason right now. Like, it's the closest to the door, you know, as far as when I walk out my garage door and play, it's the first game I go to. You know, I don't know. I think value is in the eye of the beholder. And gosh, not to cop out the question, but man, what people value in pinball is just So ridiculous as far as like how much the gamut of you know what people think are important and I think we'll get into that a little bit later with all of our discussions. Did you hear that? John Hall just called us all idiots. Well I just I don't know. You're not wrong. You are not wrong. When people come over and have a good time that's my value number one I think you know it's like I buy these machines for myself but also want to make sure that when people come over John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi.
    8:17
    I even warmed the Grinch's heart. I'm blushing. No, that was a solid answer, my friend, solid answer. I do agree with most of that. So let's just kind of shift then. So we're talking about value and pinball. So this new Scooby-Doo game from Spooky, Tim, I'm going to start with you. You know, I know we haven't played it yet, but where do you see that on the value scale paying what we're calling it, what, roughly $10,000 for all the bells and whistles, right? John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Jerry K. K. K. That they kind of stuck to their previous price point with Halloween. And there could be reasons for that. We all know what those might be and we'll talk about them. But I feel one, I feel they're all two to $3,000 too high, you know, but compared to the other manufacturers, I think that what you get in Scooby-Doo CE is actually You know, pretty good compared to what you might get with a Godzilla premium or, you know, a Toy Story CE. You're getting a heck of a lot more with the spooky game than you are with a Toy Story. I think there's a lot of value there. I think that it looks fun. It's got great art. They've got the content. We can talk a little bit later about whether we think they get the code or not because they didn't in Halloween. And but face value, just looking at it, watching the videos, not having played it. You know, I'm not a big wide body guy, but I know that they say it's a standard layout and a wide body. But at face value.
    10:20
    Taking away quality and all that stuff, just looking at the videos and watching it, I think, compared to the other www.willywonka.com In this episode, ours alone and not of our sponsors, Flip N Out Pinball. But I will say, you know, we're not the first people to mention the words quality control with any manufacturer because every manufacturer runs into it, right? So this isn't a slam spooky podcast, but they happen to have the newest game and they've also yo ambit Addinged in the box for copyright, this prizes the piyer seal andissy fly pijero je ne ha escaime du Tim Lee, tell us about your Halloween. Tim Lee,
    12:19
    New I'm going to talk about the software that just sits behind the scenes waiting for you to pick a mode. Software just sits there, spins and waits. I was able to accidentally pick a mode that wasn't supposed to be enabled. And it put the software in an infinite loop because I can read logs and from the logs, mode 1 had a value of 1, mode 2 had a value of 2. I'm just making it simple. And when I selected the mode that was not supposed to be enabled, it was a negative one. And the code did not have a condition to handle anything other than the modes. I could tell it couldn't handle a negative one. So it just sat there and spun and didn't know what to do with the negative one. Unfortunately, when it did that, it fired every coil in the game. And Amy just sat there with her jaws dropped as every light and coil went off for about 20 seconds. And it started to smoke. Luckily, I just turned it off. You know, maybe 30 seconds. And had my, I was annoyed because had my son or daughter been there, they wouldn't have turned it off. And so Spooky has fixed it. They put out an emergency patch. I saw, I talked to a couple of operators that had similar issue and that bothered me. I mean, that's programming like entry level type of thing to put an else and an if statement to kind of handle all the other options. And so I I struggled with that and that's why I'm not buying a Scooby to start. I probably will buy Scooby someday. I kind of like the theme if they work out all those kinks. Their latest Halloween patch hasn't been very good. It's had some issues, but that's what happened to my machine. That's I've never told anybody that that's actually in my mind. That's a pretty, you know, major problem. RID fishing messages for traders and basic logistics Laden Blase, Fantastic Youth 받으신다, tools打으신다 and okay to sign in for bid and then secure your bid with fire teng. I haven't had a single issue since those first two months. The one that kind of rattled me a little bit was the software issue. I don't think that should have happened. And that's just quality assurance in software. It's fairly simple. You have a set of tests that you execute and anytime you change the code, nothing goes out the door until you complete those tests and they all pass by your quality assurance team. So in your opinion, do you think that was just an oversight on their part? I think it was. It's like I said, it's kind of an entry level thing. I haven't seen any other issues like that. I see the standard issues in the issues in the code. You know, I get it. You know, sometimes in software, you don't test everything. You miss things. And nobody ever went in and selected a mode that should be selected. Well, I didn't do it on purpose. I did it by complete accident. So that you know, that happens. You know, it's not medical software, but beta testings for to the Yep. Yep. So that was my issue. I did those were my quality issues. It's been solid. It's been a family favorite ever since.
    16:08
    You know, they need to progress with the code. It's, you know, cartoon Michael Myers isn't that fun, but that's not a code issue. So those are those are kind of my quality issues. I kind of I never really told anybody that. And people have been asking me nonstop because you listen to Triple Drain. If you listen to Orbital Albert, both have said that I have told them I like Halloween. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. заметing COVID-19 000, So once again, not picking on Spooky, it's just unfortunate you guys have the newest game and we had these issues with the last game. So, you know, but once again, you know, go to Flip N Out, go to your distributor, you know, buy a Scooby Doo. And then if something is not quite right, you know, they'll make it right for you. And, you know, I hope that, you know, and it seems like every game they try to get a little better, which is which is positive. But that kind of leads into the next thing. Well, real quick here. Go ahead. Go ahead. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi.
    18:18
    Anyquillen Tech, Spikes Schenker,. The That anybody that buys you know that buys into an early business like I have a very young business like what I do for a living like you know we just started a couple of years ago We're suffering some growing pains, you know, and some of my clients are understanding of that. And although we do a great job and we try to do the best we can, you know, every once in a while we, you know, we struggle a little bit in the growth department, you know. I think that a lot of folks out there that buy products from a young company like Spooky understand that I've got the money to invest and it may not be perfect right out of the gate. Whereas I know that they're making big money at this point, they're selling a lot of games, they're selling a lot of high dollar stuff. I think that anybody that buys a game needs to understand like, you know, these guys are in Benton, Wisconsin in a barn putting these games together and they're doing a fantastic job doing that. But they're going to have some growing pains. And what I think is awesome about them is they're very upfront about that. They are quick to go on a podcast or a stream and be like, oh, you know what? This sucks. You know, right. We didn't do this right. And I'm sorry, like. Well, they'll never come on this podcast again. Well, no, I guess what I'm saying is I'm not trying to patronize anybody because I would not buy a $10,000 game with that many problems in it. I wouldn't. So I'm not here to say that. I'm just saying that I think a lot of people that buy their games know that they're early supporters and I guess understand that there's going to be issues from that. I think there are a lot of people that maybe do not understand that and that's probably more of an issue. But I think the loyalists for them will scream to the rooftops that they're awesome and they're better than Stern and blah blah blah. But at the end of the day, they're probably trying to grow. They're probably learning how to grow. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Knapp Arcade, Bally Williams, Straight Down the Middle, Bally Williams, Street Winners, Tanyo Klyce, Knapp Arcade, Bally Williams, Street Winners, I'm not trying to be neutral. No, no, no, I'm saying that in a positive way. Yeah, I'm not trying to be neutral. No, no, you're doing great. I have a small company and we struggle. And without loyal clients, without people that believe in us, we'd probably fail too. But, you know, we get better every day. So I just don't want to, I just don't want to, I understand where they're coming from, John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi.
    21:45
    They are still a startup company, a boutique company, or are they playing with the big boys now? I 100% feel like they're a startup company and they may not be charging startup company prices, but I mean, well, they are, though. Well, I mean, yes, I still a little cheaper, but but ten ten grand is a lot to be hardcore about it. Then I tried to play Halloween twice at Expo. It was broken both times. I played Domino's. I played that game a bunch of times to play America's most haunted. Those were all rough in code. They broke down a lot. You know, trap balls, like, I don't know, just weird, weird stuff. And yeah, the way they drive their ship is awesome. You know, they're like, here's what we're doing. We're doing this and screw you if you don't like it. But yeah, my loyalties lie with Stern and you guys know why. So because their games don't break and I have four of them in my garage and I've not fixed a thing on them. So, you know. Let me ask you this, Jonathan. Is a company that's made 10 games still a startup?
    22:54
    Yeah. Or is it 8? It's either 8 or 10. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's 10 with the contract games, but yeah, 8. I'd love to hear your guys' opinions on that. I mean, I don't know. Guys, they build these things in a barn and... No, I'm with you. They are a boutique startup pinball company and they're still trying to figure it out. And I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just telling you that's the way it is. Okay. No, that's your opinion. Now, riddle me this then. At what point are they no longer a boutique and a startup, in your opinion? No wrong answers. I think that's where we're at. I think that's the big discussion. I think that's where we're at. I think that the loyalists and the fanboys are starting to hold them more accountable to that. And, you know, I mean, here's one thing. They didn't raise the price that much. And like I said, I'm not buying, but... Okay, let me ask you... They're getting there. They're playing with the big boys. I'm going to keep beating on you, John, and this is fine. How many games a year do they need to make to no longer be a boutique company?
    24:03
    Right now they're making... So 1969. Well, no, but every year they're making 1,200 games. They're making like 100 games a month or something. How much does Stern make? 100 games a week? They make like 40 a day, I think. So yeah, they're making like 200 a week. Yeah, between 200 and 400 a week based on the line. So they got a long way to go before I'd consider them. Well, but you don't have to be as big as Stern to not be a boutique, right? CGC is a boutique company too at this point. I mean, they're barely putting games out. Well, but I think they have other issues other than just... Yeah, I know. So, well, no, I'm just asking. No, there's no wrong answer. How many games a year would they have to make for you to say they're no longer boutique? That's all I'm asking. Well, what if, what if, yeah, sorry, Tim, what if I said that it's more about the size of the company, the size, the amount of employees that you have working on the line? They've doubled their number of employees in the last, like, literally, I think, two years. Like I said, I think they're right on the line of I think it's time for them to show up and fix their QC issues. And I think everybody agrees with that one. But yeah, I get your point. Can they be a boutique and not a startup? I mean, they might always be a boutique company. That's a good point. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, I just don't think they're a startup anymore. I don't think they're playing with the big boys anymore, but I think they're somewhere in the middle. I think they can't have the startup problems anymore. They need to fix them. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, 100 percent. That was a great distinction, Tim. I hardly ever agree with you, but I'm going to agree with you on that. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, We agreed for the first time in like three months. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, It must be a fantastic idea. But you're right, because we were kind of confusing boutique and startup, because you're right, you could be a boutique forever. But my point with that is, I think now they're past the boutique stage, because they're cranking out some games. They're trying to make as many as possible every week. They're really ramping that up. Who do you know that's bought a Scooby Doo so far? Mike Williams and Madison. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. The
    27:16
    Matt Jansson, You're making games in a barn. I was just saying, they have a small... They're Amish people just making pinball machines in the middle of Wisconsin. No, no, that's in Pennsylvania. Tim knows that. Yeah, yeah. My buddy Eric just went to the barn three weeks ago. Now that's going to be the name of their factory. We're just going to call it the barn. Yeah, he went to the barn a few weeks ago to pick up his TNA, and he said they've come a long way. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Linus Klyce, The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I'm going to be a little bit more stern putting out, you know, blah, blah, blah games a week. Like, I want somebody who's just going to like build something and not a barn in a small manufacturing warehouse. You're absolutely right. But there were two things in the last two years that, you know, all the companies had a huge advantage, right? FOMO was driving the entire market. You know, prices were going crazy. Nothing was in stock. You know, when times are when times are good, you know, it's good every business, right? It's like, you're having a good time, you're selling a bunch of shit. But it's when the times aren't so good. And I know Spooky has some rough times in the beginning, but they're past that as well. But you know, going forward now, if every game has issues, or you know, they keep losing some of that goodwill, you know, the non refundable deposits, different things that can really, You know, make or break a business, right? Go ahead, Tim. Tim Kitzrow, Let me ask you, Drew. You said something and it just sparked a thought. Have they had issues? Did they have issues with Rick and Morty? Because I'll tell you this. I ran into my buddy in Pittsburgh who owns a really big operation. You know, many, many different locations. He's an operator. And he told me that Alice Cooper is rock solid. I didn't ask him about Rick and Morty, but because I was talking about wanting an Alice Cooper and he said, really haven't had any issues with Alice Cooper. Is Halloween just a bad game? I mean, as far as quality? I don't know if Rick and Morty had issues. So from my understanding, and I never had a Rick and Morty, one of the biggest, I guess, concerns about it, and it wasn't, so yeah, Rick and Morty wasn't as big of a deal because A, Scott Danesi designed it. You know, he has a much better grasp on hardware and different things. He's been doing this for quite a while.
    31:28
    You know, not taking anything away from the other people at Spooky, but there was there were some adjustments that needed to be made and people were frustrated with it because kind of to John Hall's point earlier, if you're somebody who doesn't know how to work on a machine, you know, you would call them and they would send you a video. You know, Spooky Luke is awesome. I've talked to him. He's great. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. We have to make these adjustments and you have no idea because you've never seen a pinball machine before. So take that for what it's worth, but from my understanding, Eric Pripke was on code, Rick and Morty was well received, it sold out in a day. I don't think they had, to your point Tim, all those issues like they had with Halloween. Yeah. And the second point to that was I really care that people learn from their mistakes. Now, if you listen to Zach's show, they didn't deny that they had issues with Halloween, which is a big step because there are certain companies that refuse to admit that they had issues. Acknowledged, yeah. No, I give them 100% credit for that. That is amazing. That's exactly what I mean too. They stood up, they were like, hey, we're learning, we're doing this thing. For the third time, this is not a Bash spooky episode. We're just getting it all out there. They owned it and they said, look, we're learning as we go. Buy in or basically that's what they said. Buy in if you want to. They're doing great stuff in that barn sometimes. Yeah. They have made the best third level play field in pinball. I'm telling you that the ramp to get there is a little bit clunky and some spooky, the spooky fan base has sent me like messages to help me get mine working and it's working way better than it was. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Scooby Doo hasn't hasn't launched yet so you know as soon as those games start trickling out that you know they did say they keep the first 30 there you know for a longer period of time purposely so they can iron out all the details I think that's wonderful. Zach said today that they sent the first 30 out to like trusted um yeah operators um I know um we have a place we're talking about Mike Williams uh Madison's one of those places because it's it's only like an hour from Spooky So, Madison has a pretty good pinball scene here and they'll send one there and they'll hammer out any sort of details. They put it on location and they'll hammer out the details and any issues that might come up within the first week or two. Well, let me ask you two guys. Did either of you kind of say if you thought the value was there for the Scooby Doo CE? What do you guys think? Right, because it is cheaper than, you know, it's basically a premium, a Stern premium price. It's cheaper than a JJP LE. It's the same price as like a Cactus Canyon, you know, that kind of thing. So it's, it's there. But I'm going to backtrack a little bit. And once again, I really don't want to hammer on spooky, but the TNA 2.0, right? I love the game. I've always wanted one. When that thing came out with the $9,000 price, I was like, oh, I'm going to buy it. I couldn't even think about purchasing one because it was just like this is so outlandishly crazy and it's not their fault. It's like I probably would have priced it the same, once again, not knowing anything about bombs and different parts of it. But when you used to sell this game for $5,500 just a couple of years ago and now you're trying to get $9,000, it's really hard to swallow that. And that, that's what she said. I, before we started I looked up the pricing it was 77, or, you know, basically 7,800, 8,800, 9,800 roughly. So, just $1,000 between each tier. Which is interesting. Sorry, I'm looking at it right now. Yeah. Bug said the gameplay on the standard is exactly the same as the collector's edition, correct? Yeah, yes, yes, correct. The gameplay is the same. If you look at the trim stuff, and you're only paying $2,000 more for the CE, and you know the deal, like everybody said this a thousand times on all the podcasts, but you can choose whatever trim level you want.
    36:49
    So if you look at, if you know, you can say, I want to order this and put it on your deposit, And pick your trim level There no limit to how many of the collector editions they going to make So there only you know difference Rob
    37:24
    Webcast Get away from your Stern fanboy-ness and you decide you want a Spooky, would you go with the lower or the higher model?
    38:19
    The lights are amazing. And I also had a GNR that I said the same thing about. It was beautiful. It looked amazing. It sounded amazing.
    38:30
    But? It was good. But, yeah, had to go. Had to go. I think, so relatively speaking, yes, I think they did a great job with the pricing. And compared to what's out there, it's, you know, it's a lot of pinball for your buck. Yep. So once again, if they hammer out the QC issues and that kind of thing, I think, you know, it'll be a really big hit. And apparently they've already sold most of them, right? It sounds like there might be, you know, Zach thinks maybe 100 or 200 left. So, you know, they've sold 1500, 1600. So... What do you guys think about the age of the theme, in your opinion? Well, they're still making TV shows, you know, so it's hard to say because, you know, our kids are watching it, you know, our grandparents watched it, you know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's, it started in 1969. So, I mean, that's almost as old as Tim. Yeah. Tim, what year were you born? Like, like, 58 or something? 75, 75. 1958? Okay, got it. My son's nine and he knows who Scooby is. See, that's what I'm saying. So, so it is, it is a multi-generational license, unlike, you know, say like Munsters or, you know, Led Zeppelin or, you know, kids just don't resonate with that kind of theme. So I think it was a really solid choice on their part. Yeah, I walked through the mall today, believe it or not. Amy asked me to pick something up. So I went to the, to the, I guess it's the record store, CD store. Were you a walkers? Yeah, yeah. And I walked through like, not Spencer's, but what's the other show? Hot Topic. I walked through Hot Topic and I walked through the place that sells all the movies. Anyways, they all had Scooby Doo shirts, which I was shocked because I haven't thought about Scooby Doo since I was 10 years old. I really haven't. But I think it's a cool theme, but I just haven't thought about it. And sure enough, each store had a Scooby Doo shirt. All right, well, next time you guys are in Milwaukee, we're gonna do some bong rips and some Scooby snacks, okay? We'll do the whole Scooby experience, it'll be great. All right. Yeah, I did the Fonzie experience. That really wasn't... Is this gonna be like the time you took us to the bar that you swore was open at 10 AM and we ended up walking for like three miles because there were no bars open at 10 AM? Well, that's because it was 10 AM. You did proclaim that as a feature of Milwaukee, though. Yeah, it is. Well, COVID. COVID killed it, you know? We'll just blame it all on COVID. Never going to live that down.
    41:18
    So let's shift gears here a little bit. We're talking about prices and stuff. I'm still looking at the Scooby-Doo Playfield over here. Have you guys... So I have a public service announcement for anyone selling a pinball machine. Are you ready for this? Yes. This is Drew's Poor Man's Pinball Presents. The public service announcement of the month. Whoever is on pinstripe, I don't care what kind of game you have. I really don't. Okay? I don't care if it's Pirates of the Caribbean, JJP. I know everyone wants it. I know it's rare. I don't care if it's a Fathom remake and you know, they're only going to make 10 of them because Damien's struggling. It's kind of a joke and a bad joke, but whatever. I know. I'm rooting for Damien too, but here's my PSA. Okay? These $20,000, $30,000 games, just stop. Just stop. Don't do it. I'm tired of it. Like, yeah, Jonathan Hall's clapping there. Like, and I'm kind of making jokes, but I'm being really serious here. Like, it is getting so frustrating and so ridiculous. And people say, well, you know, you just want to make money and this and that. I get that. I love money. I love making money. I, you know, I sell shit too. It's fine to a degree. But we have gotten so greedy, you know, and I'm not going to get off on my tangent. This is society in general, but it's really trickled into this pinball hobby that we love so much. Did you guys see? There was a medieval madness, okay? A remake, new in box. Yeah, so the guys had it for a couple of years. $30,000. You know what? I'm going to say... You know me, right? I'm Mr. Nice Guy. Whoever's selling that, I don't even care if he's famous or podcast famous. Fuck you. Okay? Seriously, go fuck yourself. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi,
    43:29
    Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, Yeah, if you only put 50 or 100 plays on a game, you have had, you've not had it long enough to even understand if it's good or not. It's fine if you want to sell it, but don't say that you didn't like it after 50 or 100 plays. You did not, you did not have that game long enough. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, I'm glad he got roasted. I'm both forearms, by the way. He had the nerve. I should get his name and just call him out. He had the nerve. He said, hey, I'm kind of new to the hobby. That's cool. I just bought my first new in box. It was an LE. Okay, cool. Good for you. You got the money. I'm not mad at you. Is it worth more if I keep it in the box or I take it out and put a bunch of mods on it? Maybe I should just get a premium. And he was dead serious. He was asking the community for how he could have the most value out of his LE. That guy, go fuck yourself too. He has been in his hobby for like four months. So what does that mean? Once again, I'm not trashing anyone who's only been in the hobby a few months. He is literally here just to try to make money. Bullshit. I mean, any time somebody walks in and finds out how much a pinball machine is worth is going to think that they can make money on it. Like, oh, these things sell for $10,000, $7,000, $20,000. Oh, maybe I should buy one. Like, I don't know. It's a big money game now. That's my point. If you know, I sold Simpsons, you know, I had 6500 in it. I think I sold it for like eight grand. You know, if you make a thousand or 1500 bucks or something cool, right? And how many fucking times did you play that game where you had? Oh, a thousand. A thousand. Two thousand. Yeah, easy. Right. But, you know, and I've sold games at a loss, you know, and different things. But, you know, if like I said, if you make a couple thousand bucks, you know, whatever, You know, whatever. If you bought that Pirates of the Caribbean, you know, and you paid 15 and then you sell it for like 17 or 18, you know, whatever. I'm not mad at you. But just putting these ridiculous price tags just to see if someone will pay it. Like, come on. Go ahead, Sam. It's your floor now. Yeah. There's a certain segment, very, very tiny, of the selling market. They know how to take advantage of people with a lot of money and they'll pay anything to get a particular game. They just want it. And the other interesting thing is a number of those folks have these collector's quality machines that just sit there. They don't play it. I've ran into a number of people that don't play their machines. They like having pinball. And if you do have a collector's quality machine that you play all the time, you probably stink. I mean, you're trading the ball way too fast. So if you play a lot, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you paid $20,000 for a machine and you played it 2,000 times and it still looks really nice, you're probably not very good at pinball. But no, I was just going to say that I just keep running into these folks. You could do whatever you want with your money. It's your money. Spend it if you want to crazy dumb, you know, spend and buy. I'm just shocked that people have pinball machines as decorations. Yeah, there's that. And then, yeah, like what John Hall said about, you know, these guys that do quote unquote play, but they buy all these games and they play it, yeah, 50 times. And they're like, oh, it's time to move on. Because even Guns N' Roses, I know I give you shit for getting rid of after a few months. Oh, it's coming. You knew it was coming, John Hall. Hey, I've done it too. A few months, I think it was like two weeks. Yeah. How many plays did you put on it? Probably a couple hundred, right? Five million. Yeah, right. Okay. It was a couple hundred. Yeah. I had it for a month, I think. Yeah. So you played it, though. You played it. You enjoyed it. Moved on. Okay. No, and that's fine. And you actually kind of lost money on it. It's a different kind of story. No, I didn't. Oh, you broke. Oh, because you got the Deadpool premium. Yes, I did. Okay. Yeah, you did good. You did good, my friend. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry Kizrow, Kanyo Klyce, So like, do we think, okay, so 2023, is this going to be worse or better for the market for us consumers? Worse. You think worse? You think those prices are just going to keep going up? Oh, for the consumer? Yeah, for us. Well, I mean, our collection values are going down, but so are our purchasing prices. So I guess it's prices. Sorry, buddy. Didn't mean to cut you off. Go ahead. It just depends on how you look at it, man. www.willywink.com The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Sgyren,
    51:24
    and a lot of other great people. Tim Lee has the worst FOMO I've ever met. Every time a game comes out he's like I'm not doing it this time and then literally eight seconds later, can you call Zach and see if we can get one? Every single time, call Zach Flip N Out Pinball, get your new pinballs and pinball accessories and toppers, $2000 mando toppers, go get them. Yeah, so back to my original point, so manufacturers, they're going to find their ceiling, they're smart at what they do, you know, and as long as things keep going well, the quality gets better, you know, they'll find their ceiling. würdenальным Inontape from sexual assault. utilisación gráfica góndola yulously americaveloles.com The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Scott Danesi. We were talking, a Harley Davidson came on the market here locally in Pittsburgh for $39,000. And usually if they come on at $39,000, you can make them an offer and get it like $37,000. And I like that range of games. I've never played Harley. I'm not saying I'm going to buy Harley. But it seems like you can get a game between $2,000 and $5,000 now that could be a fun game. Oh, no, I totally agree. But before we wrap this up, I just want one more thing we were going to talk about, you know, manufacturers, are you listening? And it kind of ties into the the fuck you guys from before. I want to plead with the manufacturers to lower prices. And I know everyone says that and it's really easy to say, but I have some actually really good ideas and I want to one of them is really sacrilege. But I want to share it with you guys and I want your thoughts on it because I've been thinking about this. The game was kind of a barren wasteland.
    55:03
    The Valley Company Subsidiary of Walter Kidde Co Inc a tipping point right Because here I staring at two beautiful men on my screen and I staring at myself on the right here Yep, John Hall's rubbing his beautiful bald head. I was looking for Glenn and Josh Mark. You didn't ask me if I played Led Zeppelin, but okay, go ahead. I did ask you, and then Tim took over. Sorry. I'm getting to this, okay? So anyways, the point I'm making is John Hall, Tim Lee and myself, I think we went through this in the last like say 12 months or 18 months. We've bought a combined what, 12 new in box games, right? Whatever, we'll just call it. More. Yeah, maybe more, right? Yeah, John Hall is buying and selling. Okay. Maybe 20. Let's just say for the sake of argument that in the last year or so, the three of us have I've bought, you know, three or four games apiece, brand new, right? So we've been, and most of those were Sterns. So I'm really talking to Stern, but any manufacturer could benefit from this. So my idea is, and sorry to preface this, we're all kind of like pausing some of our new in box purchases now, right? Because it's just getting like really fucking crazy. So you know, and eventually that'll catch up with the manufacturers, right? We can't be the only three that are thinking this way, obviously. So I was thinking, what if we took more games like Led Zeppelin, okay, with like less on it, but you had amazing themes and they shot really well and they did a lot of code. Would you guys be okay with more games like that with really good themes? For less money than current pro? There would be actually like a $5,700 Led Zeppelin. Yeah, like a layout like Led Zeppelin. And like I said, I know this is completely sacrilege. I get it. But if you could make a fun shooting game, it shoots real well, it doesn't have all the bells and whistles and the mechs and everything, but it shoots well, it's got good code, it's a great theme, would you guys be down for that in some capacity? Can I go first? Yeah, go ahead. I bought my TMNT Pro like before the price increases. So like $5500, $5600 or something? $5700, something like that. Yeah.
    58:00
    If you told me that I could buy like more of those at $5700 or Led Zeppelin or any Pro. Yeah, $5500 maybe. Yeah, because I really want premiums in my collection, like full feature games. Band Guy Betsdam.
    58:44
    John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Scott Danesi. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I have a little bit of a different idea. I like that idea, but I think that they should start the pros out at the price they're at, and if they don't sell, they need to let the distributors lower that floor. Like, I want to buy a Star Wars Pro or Premium. The Pro's kind of barren. Jonathan and I went back and forth. I don't want to pay seven grand for it. I'd pay $5,500 for it. No, that's what I'm getting at. I'd have ordered it from Zach today for $5,500. That's... and by the way, when Star Wars came out, that was like 2016, I think, and they were probably like $5,300, $5,400. So that's kind of what I'm getting at, is like, if you could have, you know, there wouldn't be much on it. Sure, people are going to bitch, I want full featured, I want more mechs and stuff. The Korean But I guess what I'm saying is, you know, I think we're at the beginning of, you know, the manufacturers having to start making some of these decisions again. Because, you know, I don't know, if you follow this all the way back to even, you know, 2016, 2017, like even when I got into the hobby, which is around that 2015 or whatever, you know, they were making vault additions, right? Why did they make vault additions? Well, they made vault additions when sales were slow. Warren Henry Smith, We're not back logged and they're not selling as many games as they want. Well, at the end of the day, we are the problem because we are the home collector buyer and these are commercial machines. So the reason why pros cost so much is not because of operators, it's because of us. It's because of the home buyer that's buying the pros that we're only meant to be commercial machines in an operating environment. Interesting. I think if you went back 20 years and all these people were only operators, they would push back on the manufacturers and they'd be like, look, we can't make our money back on these. Oh, no, 100%. That's what happened. And the operators can't push back now because we are home buyers. The majority. Yeah. There's like this study about people and how like in certain decades, like in earlier decades, everybody like went out for entertainment and ate at home, like in the 60s. And I may have talked about this on the podcast already, but like, you know, in the 60s, like everybody didn't have a home entertainment. So they would eat dinners at home and then they would go out for their entertainment. And in the past, you know, few decades, it's reversed. Now we have all this entertainment at home and we go out to eat. That's why restaurants are everywhere and entertainment places aren't as popular. And it's a fascinating thing because here we are, like we're investing in our home entertainment. We're spending our hard earned cash, not not eating dinners at home. We're eating dinners out and we're coming home to be entertained. And, you know, it's probably only gotten worse in the past couple of years. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. You know, if you have a loud enough, you know, army, because, yeah, the thing about what you said about Stern machines, they're locked in the contracts, right? So they sign these contracts and they got to abide by them. You know, it's a whole thing. Is that the way it works? I thought the distributors had to buy all the games and then sell them. No, no, they do. That's what I'm saying. The distributors sign contracts with Stern. Yeah. So if you bought 100 Mandalorian premiums, you have to buy them. You have to buy them. Yes. Whether you have them pre-sold. Correct. They basically make all these all-days stock pins. You're just no matter what? And I'm probably not saying exactly how it works, but it's something like that. Yeah, well we don't know. We don't know. Correct. But no, no, no, like I said, Zach has talked about it a little bit, I've talked to some other distributors, but yeah, basically you can't just say I want more games from a place like Stern. There's a little asterisk with everything. It's business, right? So the bottom line is, yes, you are on the hook for X number of games. on theustriction.com We'll have our Q&A time next week. Yeah, everything's been great. Once again, everything's been great for two years, right? Yeah. Stern brought out more distributors, all this good stuff. Well, what's going to happen when people stop buying as many? I mean, look at it. It's already happened. This summer, every single distributor had stock of pinball machines. Every single one. Mandalorians, AIQs, Rush. The only thing they didn't have in stock was Godzilla, but every other game they held stock of. Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi, So is that going to drive prices down? I think it has to because what are they going to do? They got to get rid of them, right? So Tim's saying let the manufacturer, let the distributors sell for lower than MSRP, but then at that point if the distributors have already pre-purchased them, then they got to lose money on them. So Stern's going to have to, yeah. Correct. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about Stern here. I was going to say, and Stern obviously has a huge cash reserve right now, And so do probably most of the distributors. So they'll have to figure something out and say, okay, either we're going to let you buy a few less games or, you know, something. I don't know. JJP did that with Wonka. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but JJP doesn't sell nearly the amount of games. Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, I'd buy Star Wars today for even $5,700, you know.
    67:55
    Zach, are you listening? Yeah. I might buy another Turtles, but, you know... I would buy another Turtles for $5,700 probably. Fuck that game. I lost all my mods and everything.
    68:09
    Well, this has been good, guys. You guys got anything else? Any shout-outs you want to make? Drew and Tim suck at pinball. Yeah. Amy's totally distracted me. Now she's sending me video evidence, so... I gotta go. Oh, is she sending you boob pics?
    68:24
    I gotta go. Tim Lee's gotta go make out with Mr. Sand now. So thanks for joining me. Episode 132, guys. It's been great. Don't forget to listen to all our great content on the Poor Man's Pinball Network. Mr. Tim Lee here with Miss Rachel Aristo. When's the next drive multiball coming out? We are recording this week. Oh, they're recording this week. Yep. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I'm John Popadiuk, and I'm here with some of the old magic, of course. I know it's always great having Ian right next to me. So we're working on some things. Stay tuned for that. We will be releasing some more details. It definitely won't be weekly, but we're shooting for maybe like a monthly type thing. So you heard it here first. We're working on that for the new year. And it's the holidays, guys. So Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, all that good stuff. Happy New Year's. We probably won't see you until next year. Until after the New Year, you guys have anything else? Happy Holidays. Merry Christmas. Love you guys. All right. Fantastic. We'll see you in... Sucks at pinball. I love it. Sp spread pro愛 JSE Celebro PS Sim min HARVIE HOUNG,
    71:41
    NEUMANN KLEINEN AND BR continual Utz approval erin meat And I'm just gonna keep on waiting underneath a mistletoe I will take the list and send it to the North Pole for Saint Nick's I won't even stay awake to hear the magic rain display Cause I just want you here tonight, holding on to me so tight Timothy Whitt gospel sings and plays ''farmyard'' those people are coming from the streets oh, it's easy, merci, merci '' personalized and homage'' Hail America Oh baby All I won't for Christmas with you Ooh baby All the lights are shining so brightly everywhere And the sound of children's laughter fills the air And everyone is singing Oh I love you oh, I never wanna die Oh I love you Can you believe the way we love each other? And that chains we hold Are able to separate us What we need, to telephone, to send to be free Your life may end Oh love I want Know the time what I need The dürfen, we love you Ah baby Oh I want This is my world You love you darmon, issues of quer, don't leave Kanaan Hall Ward 1 0 8
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    Kanaan Hall Umm player The www.bit.ly