Need a pinball machine? Another pinball machine? Maybe some fat accessories like a topper or a shooter rod? Yes, you do. Hit up Jeff over at Mad Pinball for the best products and service and use our promo code NudgeCast and get a free exclusive t-shirt when you buy any game. And you also get free shipping on any new in box Stern. So many great games are out right now. Go pick one up. Hit up jeff at madpinball.com and don't forget to tell them we sent you. Hey everybody, you're listening to Nudgecast, the official podcast of Nudge Magazine. That intro music you're hearing right now is the song See Through Head by the legendary Hives. The best. Shane, do you like the Hives? I love the Hives. It's just like... Amazing band. Yeah, high energy, just like old school rock and roll, like kind of spit in your face kind of music. But like really fun. Totally. They're always wearing outfits and like it's just great and at the time it was they kind of were ahead of the although like the bands you know what I mean they were kind of the first to do it so oh man they were and like yeah they had that sort of sweet like early 60s retro like the kinks kind of sound and um oh yeah but but also like can hit that punk gear in a way I think that maybe some of those like more jangly bands can't so absolutely yeah they got the energy yeah I could talk about them all day but as always I'm Ian Kobe aka Doc Monday, the editor-in-chief and publisher of Nudge Magazine. With me, you heard him already, is my co-host Shane Told of the band Silverstein and the Lead Singer Syndrome Podcast. Shane, how are you doing? I haven't talked to you in a while. Yeah, well you've been busy, I've been busy. I'm still on tour here. I got a couple days left. I've got something, some kind of ailment. We call it bunk lung. Basically, you've been on tour for so long, like, you're just, who knows, man, you've been living on a frickin' vehicle with ten other dudes for, like, all year, you know? Yeah. It's, there's, there's, scientists don't, don't even know what I have, it's just something in my, in my soul, I think, and also my lungs. Yeah, and also your lungs, and also very much your lungs, yeah, just whatever bacterial sort of, like, microbial army that has been, like, forming within that bus, for sure. I'm sure. Yeah, that's funny you called it bunk lung. I've also heard it in pinball called, right, con crud is another one I've heard. So I am also dealing with a bit of that after we are, yes, you said we're two rambling men. I was in Portland this weekend doing the show Mortified, which is like a podcast and live theater show. So I actually got to play a couple of shows this weekend too, which was super fun. Both of them I think sold out. And yeah, I got to tell some stories about working in the mall John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr.., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Not Portland, Maine. I do mean Portland, Oregon. Portland, Maine. Also very cool. Do they have good pinball there? Uh, it's funny. I was just there and I played some pinball, but now I can't remember. So I mean, not pinball. It's not. I mean, very few places, to be fair, have the pinball scene that the Pacific Northwest has in general, but especially Portland. Well, really, what I'll say, and in general about Portland, what I love is that that town is in love with old games, right? Like, I think that is the place that you go if you want to. Okay, so we all know this, right? Like, what's the most popular pinball podcast, right? Well, that's a fraught question, I guess. It could be Kaneda, you could say Electric Bat, but I think the guys who have really been, like, killing it lately are Wedgehead, right? The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. The new hotness there was a game called Deadly Weapon. Have you heard of that? I don't think I have. It's a Gottlieb. My God. Okay, Google that right now while I talk about it because it is one of the coolest. So this is what happens every time I see Alan. He gets me super excited on like a jank Gottlieb game that I'm then like, oh, this is actually the best game of all time. So last time at Expo it was Diamond Lady, right? I came away loving that game, talking about how it's such an inspiration for Elwin and all this stuff. And so this time it was definitely Deadly Weapon, which if y'all aren't familiar, Gottlieb was a pinball publisher, creator in the 80s and 90s. I mean, they did it a couple different times, I think, but the era we're talking about is this era. Basically, they were kind of cool because they offered an alternative to like Bally where if you want to buy games with like a ton of ramps and all this different stuff, you could buy like a Bally or Williams game or or Bally Williams, depending on what time that company was going through it. But if you want a little bit less like BOM, but still like a really fun game, that's kind of what Gottlieb was trying to do. So this is a game. This is a single level playfield game that came out in the era of ramps. So pretty cool. And the idea of it is just it's a ripoff of Lethal Weapon. You're playing the you're playing as the cops. And it's amazing. It's sort of like, you know, some games like Dune when we played that there are like, there's like multiple things you're keeping track of, like you have points, but you also have arrests. And so over the course of the weekend, we just kept asking who's the top cop and only tracking arrests that you get in the game, which you kind of get by doing these like hurry up rollovers. But John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry Kizrow, Knapp Arcade, Pinball Machine, Pinball Machine, Pinball Machine, Pinball Machine, John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr.., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Oh yeah, okay. And that, I know that game is typically maybe a little bit more highly rated than some of the other Gottliebs, but that's the same thing. You can look up certain rules of how to play this game, but some of the rules are very weird. Like, multiballs are just starting out of nowhere. It's like a frickin' Guns N' Roses Jersey Jack. It's like, it's a weird game like that, and some of the stuff is just very different from Mitch Carton's Pinballやって John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry K. Sheats Jr., I think for 12 bucks. They have great food. They have great drinks. Alan was there fixing games and kind of like mumbling to himself the whole time. And they have a really cool mix of like some older like Gottliebs and stuff like that. But they also have some newer games. But every single one of their new games has like a weird twist to it. Like it's very quirky. Like they have a Tron and it only has the Power Balls from, is it Twilight Zone? Is that the white balls? All the balls in that game are just those balls. So it's like these little white balls flying around. Those things will fly too. Yeah, dude. And it makes it super fun. I know Scott Danesi also does that with his Tron, so maybe that's like a thing. And then for Godzilla, they have a Godzilla with lightning flippers in it, a Godzilla 70th. So it's like you're all fucked up when you're playing it. I was just like, what? I didn't realize it at first. And I was like, these flippers feel almost like stumpy. So I think it's technically only the bottom two flippers, like the third flipper is still a normal full-size flipper. But yeah, the bottom flippers are lightning flippers. And that really tracked in general because when I talked to Alan, I mean, he's just a very opinionated guy, I think. He's like strong opinions. And he was like, God, if I have to talk about Godzilla one more time. So I was like, got it. This is why he did that. But yeah, that was super cool. I got to go also to this place called StarTropics. Are you familiar with that? Only the original NES video game, StarTropics. That's the only one I'm familiar with. So StarTropics is run by our friend Jason who used to stream a lot, but he's a really great pinball personality. He's friends with Jack Danger and all those guys. And so I reached out to him because I knew he had kind of opened up this really interesting arcade in a very Portland type space. So there's this place called the Lloyd Center. Have you ever, have you been there before? I don't think I have. I mean, I've been to Portland a lot, but I don't think I've been to this spot. You would remember this because it is a mall that is now like a post-apocalyptic mall. It's like a, I think I described it as a postmodern mall. So like it has gone through the, right, the decay. It's huge. It's over a million square feet. It's three stories. Seth Nordlund, John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry K. Sheats Jr., All you can play place. And they have a couple new Sterns and then he's really set it up like a museum where you know he'll have a game and then he has the exact same game but it's just the parts of it so you can like see what's corresponding to it and how it works and that even these older games like EMs have all these like really interesting mechanics to it to make it do you know the tricks that we love in pinball. So that kind of translates to Jason's ethos. Like while I was there, he was sort of like this, I don't want to call him a babysitter, but like something in between a babysitter and a therapist and like a buddy to like all these misfit people who are like coming in and like, we're like, Hey Jay, how's it going? And like they had all like they were bringing him like burn DS games or whatever. Like all it was just like this fun. I was like, this could be a reality show where you could write a script about this place. It was just like full of characters. And, um, yeah, so I think what I really took away from this trip in general was just like the sense of community and like on location pinball scene in Portland is one of the strongest that I've seen in the country. And, uh, it was so cool. It was also really funny because it, those guys are like rock stars out there, which I was like, damn, like, like someone came up to Alex while we were playing. I'm like, hey, are you the podcast guy? And he's like, yeah. He's like, yeah, I recognize your voice, like super cool. He didn't know this guy. I'm like, what the hell? I'm like, when I go to reboot in Eau Claire, not only do they not listen to this podcast, they're just like, fuck off, get out of here. So I'm like, man, I got to ... I think I got to start listening to Wedgehead to figure out what they're doing, so. They do a great show and I really liked their episode. They had George Gomez on. I thought it was funny that they brought him on to talk about Sopranos because there's like a crazy surplus of Sopranos games in Portland. Is this something you noticed? Yes. That's like apparently they're on every street corner practically? Dude, that's really, that's funny that you brought that up. I didn't listen to that episode. Yes, that is a game and Metallica, like old Metallica, were everywhere. And that was something I actually talked about with one of my Lyft drivers that just the Gen X influence is still so strong there. Like, I was at a coffee shop and there were like young people in their 20s talking about the bands that they were in. And I was like, dude, I was a bouncer, you know, in my 30s and stuff. And I never heard anyone under 30 talk about like playing in bands, really, you know, like it was it was rare. Like, it's much more like electronic music or hip hop, that kind of stuff a lot of times. So it was really cool to just see this like, man, it made me want to move there, to be honest with you. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr.., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. All of these are great things that I've enjoyed many times. And speaking of weird, I don't know if you want to talk about it. Actually, yes, let's just talk about it. So me and you, this isn't the weird part, but me and you met up for the first time in IRL. What was that? IRL. Yes, IRL. Sorry, I took a second for the acronym there. Yeah, we met up and it's funny, I guess people listening to this probably assume we've known each other for years. We've hung out, we've been all over the world together, whatever, but actually no. We met in the flesh for the first time just last week. Yeah. It's good to hang, man. You're tall. Yeah. Yes. And so are you, and quite as good looking in person as you are in your pictures. It was great to see that. I didn't feel catfished one bit. And we got to play, we went to shoot, what was the name, is it IO Arcade Bar? Yeah. And then we have the K-I-slash-O arcade bar in Madison. Cool spot. Amazing spot. Had like tons of new games. They were like very, very, actually this was funny, right? I forgot about this until just now. One of the employees there thought I was your manager. Which I do kind of have that vibe. I think if you look at me, you'd be like, this guy wears glasses. He seems pissed all the time. Like he probably is a manager. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry K. Sheats Jr., Voice of Pinball, you know, with these people. And we got to try out, and let's give our first impressions. We're not saying this is a review, but we did get to play probably six or seven games, at least, of Dune by Barrels of Fun. Shane, why don't you tell me kind of what you thought walking up to that game? What were your impressions? I was first of all very surprised it was there to be you know in a random arcade bar in Madison, Wisconsin when the game is like nowhere yet. Yeah. You know I haven't seen it anywhere else. First of all, the game is beautiful and as you know reading this we have the artist of the game on this podcast who's coming up next. I'm gonna go next. But for real, it is absolutely beautiful artwork. The like the sculpts and everything in the game like that whole mountain and everything like pictures do not do it justice like when you see it in three dimensions, it is absolutely stunning. And the gameplay is awesome. Like I thought that the shots are really good. You know, the flippers are really strong. The game feels really good and sturdy. And yeah, it was pretty easy to understand also like what to do, I think. I might have a little bit of issue with that, but yeah. Well, I mean for the first time, you know, we've ever played the game. But the code, yeah, the code is very early. It really, really needs some work. Like to the point where I'm not sure it should even be on location yet. That was, unfortunately, I do agree with you on that. I understand that there are like external market forces that probably pushed this game to come out when it did. And let me just like take a step back and agree with you because it is a beautiful game. It is like undeniably stunning game like and does look different than anything else in pinball right now. I remember Brian, who is one of the owners of Barrels of Fun saying when we were on the barrels tour that he said, Our next game is going to be extremely divisive. You'll either think it's beautiful or you'll hate it. And I don't know that that's totally been the response, but I do think people have made fun of the fact that they're like, oh, it's a bunch of sand and stuff. And to be honest with you, here's something interesting. Like, I love, right, one of my favorite things to do is take pictures of sculpts in pinball machines, like really nice. I love miniatures in general. I always repost miniatures and stuff. It was hard to do that with this game and not because there aren good ones it because to get the full effect of the world under glass you sort of need all of it right Like you need to, it's like there's this huge almost, I don't know if it's called like vacuum packed or whatever. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr.., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Man, and like the explosion happens and there's a very specific explosion style in Dune. I don't know how to exactly describe it, but the noise of it is very, and it like makes that perfect like explosion noise. And so that was all really cool. I do agree with you that I think a worry of this game and people actually, I was talking about this in Portland with some people who are like, they weren't the biggest Labyrinth fans because of how it shot. And they were worried That this game might feel like that, and I think the people who feel that way, it may be because they were playing early run versions of Labyrinth. Yeah, I don't know. I like Labyrinth well enough. It's not my favorite game. I don't rush over to it if I see it on location somewhere or whatever, but I'll play it. This game I think definitely shoots better. Yeah. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry K. Sheats Jr., I'm not a huge fan of that. I know they're in a lot of great games, but I always feel like that's one I remember in Labyrinth. It's one where I'm like, eh, do we need to keep doing that? Because of the return, you're saying it's kind of a dangerous return that's faster. Yeah, I don't know. I just don't find it a super fun thing in pinball anymore. But anyway, I'm getting off track a little bit. I do think that Dune is a better shooter. And back to what you said about the visual of seeing this game and how it doesn't look like anything else. I agree. It is beautiful. And I think anybody that's like talking shit, like people saying like, oh, it's too brown. They haven't seen the game in person. And like, I wouldn't think that seeing the game, I wouldn't have come away with that. I would have just been like, wow, this is like a piece of art. It feels more like one cohesive piece of art rather than an artist just saying, okay, I need to do an outline graphic and I need to do a graphic for this ramp and I need to do a graphic for this. And then at the end, like a tattoo sleeve, I got to fill in the gaps with everything else. Dude. This is like the entire thing was thought out. Yes. You know, that's how it feels. Yes, I couldn't say that better, so I'll just let it stand there. But exactly, it is a cohesive thought. We had talked about it before. I knew I was gonna like it, but man, the apron art and all that is just fully integrated into it. And yeah, it is a beautiful machine. And okay, so let's talk a little bit about the bad here. When we talk about the code being bad, I want to be specific because, right, when we had Kaneda on, I was like, hey, motherfucker, you don't even know what code is, so you can't say it's bad. So I don't want to do that. I think the code is tough. The machine felt tired, right? We kind of said that. Like, it actually felt like it was performing better in the early games than it did later on. Yeah, and I don't mean like flipper weakness or anything. Just like, what was weird was like, after a while, like the skill shot just stopped giving us points. Yep. And and and I like weird weird like that and just like you'd start a mode it you wouldn't really start a mode like just big time bugs right now which I'm sure they're gonna work out so like don't worry it's not ruining the game or anything but like currently I think if you played it in the state I think anyone that plays pinball would be disappointed with that which is why I don't think it should be out on the street. Yes, not only that, it's also like they have the license per pending licensor approval like on every single like screen. Yeah, it's literally the whole time. The one that I really noticed that I'll call out and maybe I don't know, maybe someone from Barrels listens to this, but the most disappointing thing for me was so I did get Painbox once and completed it. That was really fun. And thank you to you, Shane, for getting that on on stream. Yeah, we got it on video. I feel like that's a flex because I don't think there's any other pinball influencer out there who has video of themselves actually being worthy such as myself. You're worthy. Unfortunately, then in another game, I had a multiball started and it triggered pain box, which essentially ended my multiball and then I didn't get it and then it ended my ball. So that was like quite frustrating. That's like something where it's just like I don't think... It would be strange to me if that was supposed to happen, right? Like if one of the balls is going to drain down an out lane and then it just starts that. So that's a really good example of something where it's like this code is just, it's got some Swiss cheese to it. And I really, really hope, I don't know what sales are like. I know it's an expensive game. I know people have been kind of feeling all kinds of ways about it, but I really hope that they have enough of a runway that they can get that code up to date because I think Some poppys at Sabotage for S накnoress' andразgardier.com I got to play a couple games of that, but yeah, we'll see. And these Harry Potter rumors, man. It is sounding good. It's beyond rumors at this point. Yeah, Harry Potter is nice. So like, you know, either get out of the way or risk getting Expelliarmus by a little fucking nerd with glasses. So yeah, I'm very interested to see what that's like. I did get to play a couple games of Kong. I had a really good time. We'll talk about that some other time. I don't think you've got a chance to play it right yet. No, I haven't. I'm dying to play it. I feel like Stern hasn't brought this game out as quickly as some other recent releases. Like, I feel like John Wick was so fast on location. And D&D was pretty quick too. Maybe I just got lucky where I was. But this is like, I'm surprised for what a big game this is for Stern and Elwin release. That this isn't like, they didn't have them ready to go. Like, pros basically getting shipped out immediately, because I haven't seen one... Yeah, I agree with you. It's funny because in a lot of ways this game is sort of the opposite, not opposite, but this sort of gets right in some ways, the stuff that we had a problem with, with Dune, which was like, you know, there's not like a very basic framework for the game that's easily accessible to people. That's already in there for Kong. It's funny, when I brought that up to Alan, Alan is very like, defensive of all other Tim Tim Kitzrow, absolut teamkiller, John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry K. Sheats Jr., Trans library signed for the ASAC Forum www.samscom.com If you want to get your hands on a King Kong, on a Dune, on an upcoming Harry Potter, which, man, I know we didn't go into the rumors, we'll go into that another time, but man, like, the things I've heard, just the little things out there in the world I'm hearing about this game, you know who to hit up. Hit up our boy Jeff at Mad Pinball and if you buy a game from Jeff you get a free exclusive Nudge Cast t-shirt the only place you can get it from us so head over to madpinball.com or hit up Jeff Jeff at madpinball.com and Yeah, pick up a game and it's just the best service in the industry I agree and we actually already had someone pick up a Kong using our code The Wally Winka Show, Knapp Arcade, Bally Williams, Straight Down the Middle, Bally Williams, Super excited. I think that's just like we talked about before. If you're buying a game, you might as well get some swag. You also want to go. Someone like Jeff is good because distributors are the ones who kind of have some sway. They have some like recourse, right? If something goes wrong with the game, you want someone who has your back. Boy, I almost brought up a terrible analogy that I'm not going to bring up right now because it's not professional. But if you ask me... Well, now you have to. Well, it's kind of like if you make a sex tape, you're supposed to use Disney music if you don't want it to get released anywhere because then you have the weight of Disney's lawyers behind you looking for that music because they don't want it out there on the Internet. So just like in that same way, you would have the full power of Jeff from Mad Pinball behind you if anything went wrong with your new Kong, Dune or Harry Potter. That's right. And like, let's be real, Mad Pinball, they're based in Ohio, middle of the country. They got it on lockdown. So if you order, whether you hit up Jeff and let him know that we sent you or you just go to the website and buy a game, promo code NudgeCast, hit him up, get yourself a game. They got lots of used games too coming in all the time. So check their used inventory. Great people over there. Hell yeah. All right. Well, let's get into the guest. Here it is, our conversation with Johnny Kraft. Go Expos. Alright, our next guest is an award-winning artist who started in the Montreal graffiti scene in the 90s under the moniker Zen. Since then he's built a legendary body of work, from gig posters to merch for artists like Slayer and Guns N' Roses, to commercial work for Nike, Under Armour, Dethrone, and Like a ton of others. He's best known to the pinball community for his art on numerous games, including as lead on Jurassic Park for Stern, Final Resistance for the P3, and Labyrinth for Barrels of Fun, which he's also parlayed into the newest hotness, Dune, also for Barrels of Fun, which I'm sure we'll get into. Please welcome to the show, Johnny Crapp. Hey. Hey, how's it going, guys? Hello, Mr. Crapp. Hey, thanks for having me. It's nice to be talking to you guys. Yeah, thanks for doing this. Sorry about the issues we've had so far already with the internet and time mix-ups and all kinds of shit. But we are here, we are doing it. I am stoked to have you, man. Thanks. Dude, I think you're actually the first visual artist that we've had on the podcast. So that's really exciting because that's an area for me, obviously, like, you know, I'm obsessed with. So I was actually wondering if you can just kind of give us your origin story as an artist and maybe talk a little bit about like starting in graffiti and moving to like other mediums. So yeah, tell us about that. Yeah, I grew up while I was born in Montreal and then I grew up in the suburbs and not much to do in the suburbs. So I was like drawing a lot and I've always been drawing like for forever. And then the first time that I started painting was with oil paint. My mom had like a kit, I guess, like she wanted to start painting at some point and never really did. And so she gave me that kit of oil painting and I just like got going straight up with oil painting. So I was like, back then I was like kind of into impressionist and like, you know, like that kind of I'm a fan of your videos, and I'm curious to know if you've got any other videos you'd like to share with us. I'm a fan of your videos, and I'm curious to know if you'd like to share with us. Portraits or like stuff like that like paintings for my aunts and like uncles, you know like reproductions and stuff like that, but then I ended up BMXing and that kind of like snowballed from there like, you know BMX like ended up being like Skateboard and then like I really fell into the you know that the whole culture around it Kanner違 grandes inductions tentativa lorwas pensão. ''3????'' ''3????'' ''3?????'' ''3 caution CF‧'' ''3ница'' ''3 Conventio'' I'm a fan of the bridge, so maybe, you know. But yeah, it snowballed from there, and then like, you know. What were you throwing up like back then? Like do you remember kind of what your first graph was? I remember listening to Ice-T back then, and I remember doing like a UZ gun. Like UZ gun, like it was like right next to like a dentist, like in a suburb too, you know. So like, guy probably came in like one morning, like what the hell? So it was like a Uzi and like iced tea and big. But then I was like doing faces and stuff. Like there was like a Montreal artist that was doing, his name was Zilon. He was like doing like big faces and stuff. Like it was like super like big in the gay community here. Like he was like a really huge artist here. And that was like my first introduction to really like, you know, like someone local that was doing graft and stuff. So like, I kind of mimic this stuff a little bit. And you know, it was like about 15. So, you know, and then I kept going from there. Like I just that's, that's how I discovered like, you know, true skateboarding and graph like punk rock and like, you know, all that stuff. What was your first big client you got, whether it was in the skateboarding world or the music world? Like, what was that first one that you remember getting and being like, Oh, shit, like, people are gonna see my stuff. You know, this isn't just So if you have any questions, feel free to drop them in the comments. We'll answer them, and if you have any questions, feel free to write them in the comments. All right, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. A lot of people, a lot of artists right now in the poster community come from that website. It was like a forum, an online forum where people could just post what they do. It was kind of like an online archive of posters and stuff like that. So I was doing some locally, little gigs. If someone would pass by Montreal, I would do a poster for a promoter or something like that, and a couple of local bands and stuff that was accessible for me to do. And then I guess through that website someone contacted me, they liked my style I guess, and they thought it would fit. And that was my introduction to real merch, doing t-shirts for bands and stuff like that. When you answered that call, were you like, who is this? And then someone was like, my name is Kid. I knew Kid Rock. I've always been into music that was a bit on the edge, everything from 80s punk and then 90s hip hop and stuff like that. So I was like really into the mix of all that stuff you know like when I was in high school like I had like tapes that was like Slayer on one side and Public Enemy on the other side so right yep like it was always like and back then it was like if you showed that tape to someone they'd be like oh come it's not metal on both sides or not hip-hop on both you know like like it was starting like that was before like the Judgment Day soundtrack you know exactly I was just gonna bring that up that was a the biggest game changer was the Judgment Day or Judgment Night soundtrack. Yeah, with like Slayer and Slayer and Ice-T, I think was the one of the big songs. Yeah, that was an exploited song on top of it. Yeah. So, so, you know, people like, like me that liked both sides of the, you know, hardcore music, let's say, like, all of a sudden, we were kind of like more accepted. So like, and from there, like, it was just, you know, I've listened to all that sort of music. So, like, Kid Rock was one, like, it wasn't one that I was drawn to, like, it's not something I was listening to, but I was aware of it, so. Totally So when you were when you were a kid you know like skateboarding and getting into trouble and all this stuff was pinball in your life at all Were you do you remember playing any pinball or hanging out in arcades or anything like that Yeah hanging out in like I used to go to the arcade like we had like back then it was like double headers like if you went to see a movie And then like, basically it was a day, like we'd go see like two movies and then like by the time our parents like were supposed to pick us up like would hang out like at the arcade right next door like in, you know. Yep. It was like a small town, but we were lucky to have that. And then, uh, so I remember like being around pinball and arcades and like in general, but it's not something that I was like, uh, playing like really, you know, like I remember seeing them and it was the same thing with like comic books and all that stuff. Like I've, I've always been interested in the art side of those things. Uh, even if I wasn't reading the comics, I was still looking All the comics, you know, so like it was a bit the same with like pinball and arcade like I was always kind of like fascinated by you know everything that's artwork on something like the aesthetic of it all yeah absolutely so how did you come to it was it just like kind of another commercial client that like Stern comes to you or like what was that process like yeah it's just one of those and it's just another The I knew nothing of this world like when they contacted me for Jurassic Park. At that point I was probably through gigposters.com again, like it was probably through that website that me and Zombie Yeti went in touch. We knew of each other's, you know, artwork and path through our, like, our careers and stuff. And then we were always in the same kind of like, you know, doing either like a Primus poster or things like that. We just ended up in the same circles. I guess they were looking for an artist to do dinosaurs and they reached out to me. I don't know why, but I guess Zombie Yeti was like, I think he can't do the job. So yeah, that was what brought me into pinball, basically. That's crazy. I have so many questions. I think a lot of people, even people like us in the industry, we don't always understand the time frame of when all this happens. The order of operations and all the steps. So they're designing a game, they know what it's going to be and they know some of the rules, but then you have to come in and do the playfield art and the back glass and everything else. And then all the little things that incorporate into the different rule sets. Right. Like, I think of like, you know, like if there's a ball save, like you need a little graphic in the outline for that. Like, when does all that stuff happen? Is there a lot of back and forth between, you know, the game designer and you and everyone else on the team like involved? And what kind of time frame are we looking at? Because you must have known very far in advance that this was a game coming out or any game you design, really. I would say like so far, each experience has been different. The first one, of course, I'd say we had like about eight months. Like it was like under a year, like maybe nine, eight months to do all three art packages for Jurassic Park. And the thing is, like I knew, I knew nothing of pinball like back then, you know, like so I had the chance to work with like Greg Freres on this and he was, you know, like a famous I was a freelance artist and a great art director. So he was directing me and explaining to me, okay, this is maybe something you could think of in that area. Trying to explain to me what the intricacies of a playfield are. Because when they sent me the first file of this, it was a layered file of the shots, the inserts on a different layer, and then the layout. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. It's pretty clear now. If I open a file now, I see the shots. I can see what it's going to do. So it's a bit easier now to work with that and play some artwork on it. Back then, the first one was a bit more rough. The learning curve was a little intense. Like it was you know a quick turnaround and But it went fairly well with them like working with with Greg was like You know, it was it was a really good experience And I always had like zombie Yeti like, you know If I really needed like some direction like I would I could always hit him up and be like, you know He'd give me some of his precious time because he's always busy Well, we know from Bug that no one is truly busy, actually. That was one of the things I took away from his interview. So I'm sure he had plenty of time to talk to a good friend like you. That's actually something I've really liked about the artist community in pinball is like, I'm sure you remember this, but I got a chance to play X-Men with like you and Brad Brad Albright and Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti), Zombietti at Expo. Expo and it's just like we're all just like chill and talking about whatever um that that isn't always the case in like every industry and maybe it's not always even going to be the case in pinball but would you say like it seems like like Greg Ferrer is like all these guys have been a good resource for you is that something that you've kind of like you feel like you've experienced um what is that relationship like with other um artists like even if they're working for different companies Yeah, like so far everyone that I've met like has been like super open and chill and cool and Like for the most part this there's probably one or two that I we're super cold I'm not gonna mention. Who are they? We call them out. We don't mind. I think they know who they are. I was gonna say, I think I know who they are, but yeah, that's hilarious. No, but like in general, like everybody's super cool. Like, you know, everybody's kind of passionate about pinball and that's something that they really like I discovered that passion through these people too. They brought me in and everybody was pretty cool about it. Even here locally in the league, everybody was super welcoming. I think it's something very, like pinball is probably very different from other fields of work, I guess. Like, you know, due to that, like the friendship through pinball, it's kind of like, it's been incredible so far. Yeah, man. And like, you're a legit player now, too. I mean, I don't want to get too far before we mention this, but I mean, you're a regular at league nights now in Montreal. And you've really like embraced the playing part of pinball too. What do you like about playing or, you know, tell us a little bit about that side of pinball for you. I'd say like, I mean, I play against myself more than anything. Like, you know, it's nice to win against people, but like, I find like whenever I do better on a game that I did like before, like it's always like feels good. I would say like the the community is really cool too like it's it's fun to speak to like you know you can have doctors and a guy who changed tires and then like yeah like and we're all in the same spot like and we end up talking about like not just pinball like we talk about like our jobs or you know our background and what we like and stuff like that and then sometime you discover like you know I got a couple of jobs through like the league too you know like So like it's it's it's really you know that's I think that's the fun part of it. Just hanging out. Yeah, and while we're talking about Montreal and you know your role there in the in the pinball community How have you seen it change over the last little while? Obviously pinball is growing everywhere. You know I got to go to North Star just a couple months ago when my band was playing there. That place is like such a cool spot. I assume you probably go there frequently. What's the overall scene? Are you seeing Montreal and Quebec growing in pinball right now? Oh yeah, I've been going there now for, well, since Jurassic Park, so I'd say like six years about. There's more and more people coming in. Not everyone's there every week, but if everyone was there every week, it'd be probably a league of 55 to 60 people. We're still in the early 60s. In general, I think the league we're about 30. And people are getting better too. Because when I started going, it was easier to make it to the end of the league season. I was making it close to the finals. I was never in the finals. But now it's harder. Even for people who have been playing for a while, I think everybody got better. I used to just flip and try to keep the ball alive. Now I'm starting to get interested in the rules and how do I get more points. I just found your IFPA page. I see you're fifth in Quebec right now. That's pretty good. You've been to some IFPA provincial, state, we'll call them so people understand what I'm saying. Um, you know, state provincial championships. Us dumb Americans. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, I think it's more about going all the time. Like, I rarely miss a league. I rarely miss a, like, a local tournament. Like, it's, like, I really need to have, like, something huge to not go, because, yeah, so, like, I, you know, I try to just go all the time. Like, I really enjoy it. And North Star, North Star is really, like, nice place, nice little community. Adam's the owner, he's the operator there, and he got me into the hobby. He was really nice at the beginning, trying to keep me in the hobby, and now he's busting my balls all the time. Should I do wrong? But it's fine. That's a pinball relationship right there. I think once you're good enough friends, that's when the ball busting truly begins. So, no, we love those guys and they've been so active in the community and really kind of like they're the, you know, they're the beachhead of pinball in Canada. And I think even beyond them buying a lot of new games and that kind of stuff, they have just like a great sense at North Star Pinball of the Canadian history of pinball, right? Like they have that sign from the, you know, the company that made like one of the only Canadian pinball games. Yeah, we did a beer to like a beer can. Like there's a local brewery, well local, like they're a bit outside in Montreal called Dunham and they did a collab beer with the bar and it's called Richelieu, which is like like the name of one of the games that those guys were making back in the days. So like we're talking about like I think it's in the 40s or something like that. And it was kind of cool too because like I got an email at some point from someone that saw the can somewhere it's like dude that's like my my grandfather on this thing you know like so that's like our grand grandfather or something like that but it was like they're like where can I find that can you know so like I told him I'm like well you can get one through Dunham brewery and so yeah like it's it's it's really fun like the the commute here it's funny you have such a John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr.., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. And Barrels of Fun, you know, being a relatively new company, how did you originally get hooked up with them? Was it through your work on Jurassic Park or Final Resistance? And then, you know, walk me through, you know, how Labyrinth, you know, happened and then how that kind of led into the newest game, which is Dune, which is phenomenal artwork. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, like with Barrels of Fun, actually, I was working at the same time on Barrels of Fun and the P3 game. That was like, yeah, I was doing that in the homebrew too for Sean Irby. Oh, yeah, agreed. That was all the same kind of six months. Everything was packed. What's that game called? Sorry to interrupt you. But what is that? 8 Ball Beyond. 8 Ball Beyond, super cool game. If you guys see that at an expo, it's like it looks professionally made. It's a homebrew about aliens playing like billiards. Weird project, but super cool. Yeah. So and they're all like all three, like projects were super different and they look different. And so that it was fun to work on those three. But I guess for Labyrinth, David David Van Es was I was like looking for someone to do the playfield because they already had the cabinet art done for Labyrinth. So I didn't touch that. The only thing I did on the cabinet is like the alternative backglass. So they were looking for someone that knew how to deal with a playfield because I guess the other artist wasn't comfortable. And I can't tell like, you know, the first playfield you do is daunting, especially if you're not someone from the pinball community. You know, so they threw someone else like they reached out. Then I was interested, of course, like to work on that. I was like a little surprised at first, like, Labyrinth, really? But then like when we were done, like it was so well received, like it was like pretty incredible actually. You must have been pretty familiar, like I mean, your age. Oh, I knew the game. You must have known it really well, right? Yeah, yeah, I knew the game. I knew the movie, I mean. And yeah, so like, I started working on that. That was, that took a while, because it was their first game too. So like, there was a lot of back and forth, like, it was a bit slower to process on this one. But it was a great experience. It was nice. And actually, like, while we were working on that, we learned that we would have Doom. And David asked me if I would be interested in doing, working on Dune and I've said like of course you know because like there's a Montreal connection with Dune too. It's Denis Villeneuve that made the movie. Right, right. It's a guy from Montreal, French Canadian and a lot of the studios are here in Montreal too so like Rodeo, like they do a lot of special effects and they so you know so like I was super interested in that. And I knew I had seen the first movie at that point and then the second one wasn't out yet when we started working on that. Oh, that's crazy. That's super cool though. So how early on did you sort of come up with the idea, like something that we've talked about and even other pinball kind of media people have talked about, something really subtle with this game is the idea of like sand is sort of burying the play field, right? John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry K. Sheats Jr., The need for brown in the pinball community was huge. He's joking. No. Like it's dune. So of course it's like sand and it's like tan, yellowish orange, brown. That's what I had to start with. Even in the movies, there's the atmospheric colors of the whole thing. There's a lot of orange and brown and some blue, you know, like, so I knew that's where I was starting, but I didn't want the playfield to just be that. I knew we would have sculpts in there that would be like, like, even though it evolved at the same time as the playfield, like I knew there would be sculpts like that would incorporate like the rocks and the sand and all that stuff. So that's cool. I wanted to play with the, with that on the playfield. Basically, my idea was to have a playfield that the sand is taking over a little bit. Because in the movie they say that sand gets everywhere. So that was basically my starting point. And I still wanted to have the shots well... You could see the path for the shots on the playfield, but then there would be sand on top of it. And then I played with that with the inserts too and like some of them have like a bit of sand that's like you know gathering on the edges and then some other have like sand blowing over them and also like I wanted the ball path to have like sand kind of like following the ball you know like so like you see yeah so. How early on did the two very different lighting scenarios happen like when you hit a spinner There's a day-night cycle that happens. Were you talking with them about that? Yeah I was like that the first game that I been like included on the group chat like from the beginning I was actually like also part of the process in doing like some concept arts like for the mechs and stuff like that you know like so if someone would have an idea I would have to kind of sketch it out like to present it like to you know like to make a so that everybody would have like an idea of like you didn have to make sense to like because I was like at first I like you know I can do that but like I not a mechanical engineer or anything like that you know so like I can do that And like, imagine the ball getting on something and then like moving or whatever, but like, I, that's not what I do. And they're like, they're like, just, just do your thing. And we'll have the mechanical engineer figure it out, you know, like, what's behind the whole mechanism. So, so I did some of that at the beginning. So I was always involved in the, you know, if we had a zoom, like every week about the game, like, like, everybody had like discussions So like I knew at the beginning that like at some point I knew that there would be like a day and night cycle and that was pretty early into in the whole process. So basically that's what I wanted to use doing the colors like I wanted that to represent you know like the one side is a bit more orange and the other side is a bit more blue and that's to represent that too. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's super cool. Whose idea was it to do the apron like that? I mean, Labyrinth has a similar apron where it's, there's no bullshit on it, it's just art. Yeah. And I love that. Was that your idea to do that or did you have to fight for there being no info cards and like, you know? Oh, no, no. How did that work? Because I've never seen another game like that. Yeah, like I think like it's just that barrels of fun is like working more on a collector's item, you know, like it's it's more of a It's a piece like, you know, it's there's there's some and I would like to see more in arcades and stuff like that So that more people would have access to them. But I think like it's it's really like It's it's a nice piece to have like that's the idea. Totally like, you know, not just like It's not just a game. And then I think David just wanted the apron like that or someone else, which works for me because it's more space to work with. Absolutely. Yeah. And I do believe that they're still making a rules card for this one, but it's going to be a bit of a magnet one. Oh, that's cool. We use the artwork that's already there and then you'll be able to just have your card there if you choose to. Yeah, we've talked about it, but that's one of my favorite pieces of the artwork in this game. And I think it's such a simple way to really... we always talk about world under glass as the cliche, but just to have people feel like they're in that world. This game compared to Jurassic Park, I know like when you're going back like maybe it's not always fun to like you know directly compare things because each project is different but I don't know talk about the ways in which you might take a chance on like some pinball art now like on this game that is really ambitious and different in comparison to maybe like earlier projects. I've always liked different stuff. I've never liked a specific style of anything. I always like to discover how to do stuff differently. It's the same with the medium. I like spray paint, I like oil paint, I do airbrush, I try to do it all, like silkscreening. You don't have a type. I'm more of a jack of all trades, as they say. I can sort of do it all. So each project is different, and I try to approach them as their own thing instead of making it mine. I mean if I have if I end up like having a project at some point that I can't really make it mine it would most likely be like a super punk rock like pinball actually just did like a clock with my buddy here in Quebec ice cream he does like these like old bally looking like clocks so he's like you know I'd like you to have to make I'm not going to make one, but I want you to make your own game idea. So we roll with old school skateboarding kind of thing, and it's called Concrete Chaos. I made a backglass for it, and I actually just received mine today, so it looks pretty cool. If I could do something like that, that would be awesome, but it's not going to happen. If I work on Dune, I try to serve the license. I try to disappear a bit in that and just make the product what it should be instead of trying to make it mine. Yeah, I think that's a really great approach and mature of you. I mean it's my it's my it's my way of working but like it's nuts like I'm not I'm not saying like it's the way of you know doing things but like I'm you know I've been like lucky enough to work on projects that are very different you know like final resistance is very different than like labyrinth or dune and they all look like super different you know so you know sometime like I like I kind of wish like I could have been like in pinball 30 I'm not sure if you know this, but I think it was like 30 years ago when it was like, you know, like artistically it was like, all right, we need an art package for this game. And then like people would just go crazy on like, you know, but and they could they could do it all too back then, you know, like all their art package were like so different and like, you know, some some were like done in inks and like other were painted and like that was so yeah. Would you ever would you ever attempt like a Python Anghelo type World under like is that something that is interesting to you or like you're like been there done that kind of no I I mean I wouldn't like try to reproduce like yeah like work like that But you know like having like the freedom to do Whatever you want like that would be kind of cool to you know. Yeah, because he clearly did whatever he wanted As an artist, I mean, obviously, like, you know, you've done a lot, you know, in your in your career. But I mean, what's it like when you work on artwork for like, let's say a play field over like months and months or maybe even even over a year, and then you finally see that final product, especially as a guy that's such a pinball enthusiast now, like I assume you've seen Dune all done and you've played it. How fucking cool is that? That must be so cool. So, as we talked about, you know, you have to be able to see things in real life. It's just so cool to see it all come to fruition. Yeah, it's also stressful. You know, like, you almost, there's part of you that don't want to see it in real life, because you're like, oh, man, I'm going to see like little things that I would have done differently. I'm very critical of my own artwork, you know, so. But I think like most artists are like that, too. It was super cool to see it like in person this one like I was like fairly proud of this one because uh I find like it's more of a like the whole art package was like very uh coherent like I would say like you know it's very uh yeah cohesive yeah I was looking for that yeah so like it came out like in real in in person like I know like I of course some people were saying like you know it's too brown but like I mean I had to work No one of consequence was saying that, dog. Who cares? Turn off Kaneda. I'm not from the catering. To see it in person, it's very different. The playfield, you see more little details and stuff like that. Like when it when when the first images of any game come out like it's always like a train wreck online like everybody fighting like I hate this I love this like yeah like people like feel like they need to be like in a camp and like you know like I'm on that side you're on the opposite side and we'll never agree and and like and then like a week later nobody cares about the art package like people just want to flip it and like if they have fun on the game it's one of their favorite game or you know So, like, it's, you know, like, I think the artists, we always get, like, the first, like, the first bullet when it comes out. They're like, you're the easy target right away. You are, yeah. That is true. Coming out of the, so, we'll see a flyer or, like, leak images, and they're, like, it's all pixelated, and it's like, oh, it's terrible, you know? Yeah. But, yeah, like, with time, you'll find someone that loves it and will tell you that he loves it, I'm a fan of pinball. Do you have one or two games that are your favorites, whether they're classics or newer ones, in terms of artwork? In terms of artwork, I really like Medieval Madness, Yossi, the backglass. I want one of those for just staying in the studio. I always liked that one. Yeah, I like the, like, I forget the names of the artists, but like all those sorcerers, like games, kinda like, you know, magic and sorcerer stuff that had like, you know, mirrored, like and then painted and like, it's just, you know, with those dragons and all that stuff on it, like I'm always a sucker for those kind of games. Do you own any games? Just my Jurassic Park. I was gonna say, I know he has a Jurassic Park because you play that. Dude, you and I, I think, use pinball very similarly in that it does, like you said, you like to play on your own. It's like a very meditative experience in between working on projects, right? It's nice to have something to do with your fingers and just shut your brain off a bit. Yeah, it's partly a med station, I find. It's just because you stop thinking. You just do it. It's a bit like when I like cycling a bit, too. So like I get on the bike and like you know I go for like like 60 miles or you know like I just Jesus you know it's like a half day but like it's it's like I don't think about anything when I'm doing it like it's incredible so and you still skateboard obviously right no I don't I started again when my son started like oh that's cool and then like like you know the first week I would fall and then the next week I come back with like knee pads and then I would And then I'm still on the game and then I would have elbow pads. I was like, I can walk on the end of the night. So, no, I gave that up. It's still on me, you know, like anybody that's my age, kind of grew up in the skateboard, punk, graph, like all that stuff. Like it's, you know, still all kind of kept that, so. All right. One last question. What punk band should get a pinball machine? What's your favorite band? I worked with them once. I did a t-shirt for them that ended up on a skateboard and also on an SC bike, like those wheelie bikes. And yeah, so yeah, it's like it's a band that I loved when I was like, you know, 14, 13, 14. And like, I'd never stopped liking them. And then when I was asked to do a t shirt for them, I was like, so yeah, I've been doing like a bunch of DRI shirts. Cool. Nice. You know, I actually just finished one for the the middle. Yeah, around like, I think they have dates around Milwaukee and Oh, Minimalist Gaming Classic? Is it that one? No, no, but Defender Gaming Classic. Oh, dry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a ring on there, so I just finished up the t-shirt today. Oh, hell yeah. Nice. Well, Jonathan, Johnny Crapp, thank you so much for coming on and explaining artwork to people, how it works, and best of luck. I hope you got more... Are you working on more games right now? I don't know. Okay, that's the answer. That means yes. That's the answer. That means yes. Sworn to secrecy, I get it. You're going to shows? Yeah, the Golden State Pinball Festival. Oh, nice. And Northwest. I'm heading Northwest in a couple of weeks. They're back to back, sort of. Nice. Well, if you see Johnny Krap, go say hi. And you know what? I just want to congratulate you, man. The Dune artwork is phenomenal. I'm so psyched to get to play it and like I just think how you were able to integrate that theme on like a lot of different levels from like when you look at it on the macro level all the way down like looking at you know tiny little details like it's an achievement. Barrels that are like everybody involved like you know it's not just me like I did like just the artwork for it like but like it shoots nice can't wait for you guys to like you know really get a go at it and you know it's gonna be a John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Knapp Arcade, So there it is, our conversation with Mr. Johnny Krap, the artist behind so many great games, most recently Dune. And that was fun, man. He's a good old Montreal boy. I love it. He probably loves bagels. Shazamми Hashtag SH Nevada Shors To be honest, Quebec is more European than Europe is sometimes. Word, yeah. Quebec City, right, is crazy. It looks like an old European city. And I guess to tie it to kind of what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode, I feel like a kind of a kinship almost. Like, Portland is kind of like a dirtier, slightly smaller Montreal, you know? Great art scene, great music scene. Yeah. Really vibrant, like graffiti everywhere. Very punk. Yeah, exactly. So... Yeah. It's really cool to see a guy doing interesting work in pinball. His stuff looks like nobody else's stuff. It's cool to be able to see those influences, right? The influences of our generation, right? Like graffiti and hip hop and punk coming into pinball. Yeah, I thought it was such a cool chance to get to talk to him about that stuff. And I absolutely loved when he kind of admitted that he doesn't really have a signature style. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of awesome that the guy can literally do anything because if you saw the artwork for Jurassic Park and you saw the artwork for Dune, there's no way you would connect them. And I think that that speaks to his talent, you know, and also that he's like willing to kind of leave his ego aside for the greater good of what the project means. Yeah. And I think that that's really, really awesome. Speaking of that, so he did mention, I think, in his article or in his interview that he did that new clock for, I think they're called Ice Cream Studios. It's like a reimagining or a, like a fake pinball game of, of like a kind of famous skate video is what it's based on. But there actually is a nudge Easter egg in that clock. So he drew something of us into the artwork of that clock. So just if you made it this far in the podcast, you'll know that. Otherwise, you know, keep it secret, keep it safe. But actually, no, tell everybody. Let's end it on that, right, guys? Like, tell everybody. Tell everybody about what we're doing here, What Ian's doing with the magazine. We got Nudge 5 coming out pretty soon, right? Nudge 5 is coming out I think next month. We are rolling like a train barreling down the tracks with no brakes. Just decimating anything on the tracks. So it's gonna be out next month. I'm really excited. We'll have plans on how to pre-order that. Good news for anyone who has ever had shipment problems from us, I'm not doing it. We got other people doing it, real pros, so yeah, excited to get to talk more about that. And we got some really fun guests coming up too. That's right. Tell a friend, tell a loved one about the two coolest guys in pinball. Alan and Alex from Wedgehead. Yeah, we are like standing them so damn hard, man. Like, people are gonna be like, why the hell are we listening to this show? We gotta listen to Wedgehead. Well, I feel like, okay, here's like full disclosure, like I feel like me and Alan are kind of guys who are so similar that we butt heads all the time. So it was actually really cathartic to get a chance to like hang out with him in person and we didn't but well we did actually a couple times there was one time there was one time there was one time where he was like we were both talking about a celebrity pinball fan who was a fan of both of us which was cool and we were kind of saying I'm not gonna name this person because what we were saying was they would actually not make a good podcast guest he's like well you know they'd make a good magazine guest so why don't you do it and I said Alan why the how about you don't fucking tell me what makes for a good magazine guest. And more scientists and the Man Um the All the new games are all the new games and tell them that the Nudgecast sent you. That's right. Peace and love everybody. We'll see you all next time.