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Episode 13 Top 5 Pins for a Single Collection and Your Typical Geometric Mess.

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·analyzed·Jun 19, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Discussion of Stern factory tour and top-5 single-pin collection recommendations.

Summary

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast episode 13 features hosts Drew and Ian with guest Ryan Kuyper discussing their recent experiences at the Flippin' Out pinball stream and Stern factory tour, followed by a top five list of pinball machines best suited for a single-machine collection. The conversation covers manufacturing scale, game design philosophy, and specific machine recommendations for different player skill levels.

Key Claims

  • Stern has over 300 employees, with approximately 200-250 working per shift

    high confidence · Ryan Kuyper reporting from Stern factory tour; corroborated by reference to Gary Stern mentioning 350 total employees on Head to Head Pinball podcast

  • Stern manufacturing process includes wire harness assembly with testing for faults before shipping

    high confidence · Ryan Kuyper's direct observation during Stern factory tour

  • Ghostbusters playfield ghosting issues are material/sourcing-related rather than electrical or mechanical

    medium confidence · Drew Wallen's assessment based on understanding of manufacturing processes

  • Batman 66 has a deep rule set despite not being linear, allowing multiple play styles

    medium confidence · Ian's commentary during top five discussion

  • Oktoberfest features extensive mechanical options including multiple magnets

    medium confidence · Ian's design assessment during top five discussion

  • Lyman (designer) specifically excels at creating beginner-accessible games with deep rule complexity

    medium confidence · Ryan Kuyper's opinion during designer discussion, referencing Sparky and AC/DC examples

  • Attack from Mars and Amoeba Madness remakes are now more affordable than original versions

    medium confidence · Ryan Kuyper discussing remake availability and pricing impact

  • Pin Stadium Hovers product allows playfield access without removing magnetic strips via telescoping bracket clips

    high confidence · Drew Wallen describing Scott's new Pin Stadium product innovation

Notable Quotes

  • “I did get to Insta-drain three balls at the Wonka reveal in front of 12,000 people. Oh, that's right. That was a – So that was – it's a badge I wear.”

    Ryan Kuyper @ early in episode — Community reference to high-profile public gaming moment; sets casual, self-deprecating tone

  • “I just think about that compared to, like, say, a place like Spooky, and you got, like, Charlie and his son, like, working on a game. They got a few guys. No, no, I know. They do. But just the scale for pinball has just got to be amazing.”

    Ryan Kuyper @ manufacturing discussion — Direct comparison of manufacturing scale across major manufacturers (Stern vs Spooky vs JJP)

  • “When you go and see it in person, you're like, ah, man, this is really a big effort. How is it there's more shit going wrong with this? There's so much that's going on.”

    Ryan Kuyper @ Stern tour reflection — Contextualizes manufacturing quality issues with industry complexity; shifts perspective on quality complaints

  • “It's tough. It is tough. And it's very linear. I think that game shines better in multiplayer than a solo game.”

    Ian (regarding TNA) @ top five discussion — Game design assessment influencing single-pin collection suitability

  • “A bad theme per se can be overcome by a great game. A game that you want to play, a fun game, or an awesome theme. Good rules, good layout, that will trump the theme.”

    Ryan Kuyper @ Oktoberfest discussion — Core design philosophy debate: theme vs gameplay mechanics

  • “Every single one of his games a beginner can go up to it and they know intuitively what to do”

    Ryan Kuyper (about Lyman) @ designer discussion — Identifies key design principle: approachability for beginners combined with depth

  • “I'm throwing my Hobbit off for trade bait, and that's going to be one on my list, by the way.”

    Ian @ top five discussion — Market signal: specific machine trade activity and collection dynamics

Entities

Ryan KuyperpersonDrew WallenpersonIanpersonKenpersonZach SharpepersonJason FowlerpersonBillpersonSteve BeattiepersonDwight Sullivanperson

Signals

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Stern operates with 300+ employees total, ~200-250 per shift; implements wire harness assembly with fault testing before shipping

    high · Ryan Kuyper's direct factory tour observation corroborated by Gary Stern's employee count mention on Head to Head Pinball podcast

  • ?

    product_concern: Ghostbusters playfield ghosting issues attributed to material/sourcing rather than electrical/mechanical problems

    medium · Drew's assessment based on manufacturing knowledge; generalized statement without specific technical details

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Discussion of designer approaches to balancing beginner accessibility (center bash toys, intuitive shots) with veteran-level rule complexity

    high · Extended discussion of Lyman and Keith Johnson's design patterns; multiple game examples cited (Sparky, AC/DC, LOTR)

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Framework for evaluating pinball machines for single-collection ownership: non-linear gameplay, mass appeal, theme/mechanic quality, affordability

    high · Structured top-five list with detailed rationales for Batman 66, Metallica, Guardians of the Galaxy, Attack from Mars, Oktoberfest

  • ?

    product_launch: Attack from Mars and Amoeba Madness remakes available at lower price points than originals, improving accessibility for collectors

    medium · Ryan Kuyper mentions remakes bring down price and improve availability; noted as important for one-pin collectors

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.161

0:00
brah welcome poor man's pinball podcast with drew and ian that was supposed to be the drum roll now there was a time When you love me so Welcome to the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast, episode number 13, the podcast that keeps on going, taking your listeners and your girlfriends and your dead. Welcome, welcome, welcome. With us is Ryan Kuyper from the Twitch channel TurboGrafx7. Ryan, how you doing?
0:46
Very happy to be here. I can tell. The excitement is overwhelming. He went to that amazing, you know, flipping out stream to this piss shit.
1:02
I'm in some guy's basement instead of some guy's castle of a backyard. It's a freaking beautiful gazebo that guy had. It was amazing. Ken, I'm talking to you, buddy. It looked great. Yeah, but you have nice decorative walls down here. I do have nice decorative walls. Yeah, I bought a lot of shit at antique stores. It's cool. It's pretty sweet. Thanks, man. Yeah, if you guys probably don't, it doesn't show through in the pictures too well, but it's kind of got an old 70s bar vibe to it. It's got, you know, all the Pabst and Miller and Schlitz beer shit all over the walls. Beer, Steins, and it's a smorgasbord of beer. It's a mecca of beer. Smorgasbord and hodgepodge. You better believe it. Drew, how you doing, man? How you feeling? Oh, I get an introduction now? Yeah, Drew Wallen. I'm here. It was in the intro. Oh, I didn't hear the intro, so I'm here, guys.
1:57
Drew, Drew, Drew. Feeling better, buddy? Feeling much better. That flu last week just kicked my ass. Mine, too. Together, we lost a newborn baby. That was something. Maybe two newborn babies. Oh, my God. Feeling skinny, though. God awful. So much energy. I literally lost eight pounds, and that's not hyperbole. Hyperbole. no you did it happen you did it brother you did it um edit hyperbole um so yeah no feeling great uh i'm back and we're back and it's good to be back because uh we missed the week and we we haven't missed it well we missed the week before with being on vacation and all that stuff but we're back episode 13 i'm excited man lucky number 13 yeah lucky number 13 We're here with Ryan, and Ryan has... What could go wrong? We got Ryan in the house. Oops.

  • “It's got the Sparky for Center Bash toy for beginners... And then for your seasoned veterans, you know, you crank it up... Metallica has that [mass appeal].”

    Ryan Kuyper @ Metallica discussion — Framework for evaluating single-pin collection suitability: beginner accessibility + veteran depth

    • Gary Stern
    person
    Scottperson
    John Borgperson
    Orbital Albertperson
    Keith Johnsonperson
    Lymanperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Pin Stadiumproduct/company
    Batman 66game
    Metallicagame
    Oktoberfestgame
    Attack from Marsgame
    ?

    technology_signal: Pin Stadium releases telescoping bracket hovers allowing playfield access without magnetic strip removal

    high · Drew Wallen discusses specific product features; confirmed ordering; describes as 'badass' innovation

  • ?

    collector_signal: Ian planning to trade Hobbit machine as part of collection curation strategy

    high · Direct statement: 'I'm throwing my Hobbit off for trade bait, and that's going to be one on my list'

  • ?

    event_signal: Flippin' Out organized outdoor pinball streaming event at Ken's property with professional broadcast setup

    high · Ryan Kuyper attended; extended setup time (~3 hours); positive reception from multiple industry figures

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Oktoberfest theme initially perceived negatively by some at announcement; opinion shifted positive after gameplay experience and code depth appreciation

    medium · Ian initially disappointed by theme; changed stance after playing at MGC with Josh Cougar; Keith Johnson code design appreciation

  • ?

    community_signal: Poor Man's Pinball Podcast ranked in top 10 of Orbital Albert's podcast list; exact placement unclear to hosts

    medium · Hosts reference receiving notification of top-five ranking; uncertainty about specific position

    • 2:52
    Ryan has agreed to join us much more often. He has a standing invite weekly if he wants, so we might be hearing a lot from Ryan. What do you think about that, Ryan? He's like, I didn't agree to this. What the shit's going on here? It's a lot of pressure, but there's beer, so we'll make it through. Right now, Ryan, you want even more pressure? There's like 200 to 300 people listening to us right at this moment. You know, I don't mean to brag, but I did get to Insta-drain three balls at the Wonka reveal in front of 12,000 people. Oh, that's right. That was a – So that was – it's a badge I wear. I think together our collective games lasted about 38 seconds. Again, I would like to say that the machine was not level. I remember starting that up, being so excited. It's kind of like when I have sex with my wife, you know? Oh. Oh, it's over. Wah, wah. Everyone's disappointed.
    3:56
    This time it was just in front of 10,000 people, so that's a... Like I said, just like every time I have sex with my wife, in front of 10,000 people. Weird.
    4:06
    How's the pay on that? No pay. Zero. He pays them. Yeah. Oh, in that case, it's about, you know, $300. He loses so much money. Oh, man. Edit, edit, edit. I'm going to be saying that a lot this week.
    4:24
    So, Ryan, what's new with you, brother? Tell me your tale. Hmm. Guy news to share. We saw you at the Flippin' Out pinball stream. That was pretty cool. Yeah, that was a blast. Ken had invited me down, got it all set up. So it was myself, Ken, Bill, obviously, and then Jason Fowler from Slapsave. And then later on in the night, Steve Beattie had showed up and Zach Menny from – what's going on in his laundry list? Flippin' Out. Flippin' Out, straight down the middle, This Week in Pinball podcast. Is that it? He's hit the – It's a hell of a list, man. He's hit everything. He's pretty good. He's got the whole pinball media facets going.
    5:05
    But it was a blast. I want to give a big shout out to all those guys for inviting me to come along and go to Stern, go on the Stern tour with Dwight Sullivan, got to have lunch with Dwight. And then Ken spent almost, maybe it was three hours, maybe over, setting up that outside stream. That was so much work.
    5:29
    But I kept telling him, like, dude, it's awesome. It's worth it. like um so why why did you guys choose to do it outside to something different i did not that was their idea okay just to do a different thing i think yeah and it was so ideal for what it was i mean he's got that gazebo deal gazebo is the wrong word but i'm gonna say it anyway um i said castle gazebo but i mean it had the screens to keep the bugs out which there wasn't any he had said he had fogged but it was just it was so much fun then they started the call-in show can i just stop you there ken seems like the guy would fog he's definitely a fogger hang on guys time to fog ken seems like he's got everything kind of fucking in order he he had i don't think there was one loose end that was an issue like everything was extremely smoothly run um the guy he's a guy's He's awesome. That's why his podcast is so good, and here we are still. Let me go dig in my garage for five minutes to go find this thing. Yeah.
    6:36
    Totally opposites over here. So that was my first time kind of meeting all those guys in person except for I had met Zach in the past. My respect for those guys is extremely off the charts now after meeting them in person and hanging out. Like, I mean, Jason Fowler was awesome to hang out with. He's such a cool dude. and I was seeing pictures of his collection and it is freaking awesome and then obviously Ken and Bill were awesome I'm going to Bill's house got to play Bill's Whirlwind oh the infamous Whirlwind how was that does it look I mean like it rolled off the assembly line floor no it's better it's way better so I had a Whirlwind for a while and ended up getting rid of it because it was not if it would have been in nice shape I would have kept it because it's one of my favorite System 11s, but Bill's and Zach's, which I've seen pictures of, those are pretty sweet. Beautiful machine. Bill's already putting it up for sale. Can I just say this, though? The amount of money he put on that thing, he's like, ah, it's for sale. I am not a huge Whirlwind fan. What? It's good. I've played it. I've spent some time on it. The challenge with that game, which is kind of similar to Dialed In, is that upper right flipper hitting that ramp is key for the million shot. Okay. Just like with dialed in, you need the upper flipper. So you need skills to play this game. Maybe that's why I'm such a huge fan. Now it all becomes clear to me. Wait a second.
    8:06
    I knew something was missing. I'm like, this game needs something. What is it? Oh, yeah, skill. Yeah, it needs you to actually make some shots. No, I am certainly not shitting on the game, I mean, Pat Lawler's I dialed in, I think, is fantastic and some other stuff. But, no, it just never grabbed me as much as I know some people really enjoy it. It's good. It's a good Williams pen for sure. Well, like I said in the last podcast, the reason why I kind of 50-50 on it is because I have never played a good example of that game. They are usually – That could be too. Beat the shit. Yeah, you are correct. Yeah, we did talk about that. Every location whirlwind I have ever seen looks like it's gone through a whirlwind. Do the fans actually work? Yeah, yeah. That's a shock. It shoots all the cobwebs and dust.
    8:52
    Shoots all the pet hair and all the crap coming out. Yeah, it's gross. It's just hot air because it's in a bar usually. I'm like, oh, God. There's old cigarettes from the 70s. Eyes are all dried up. I'm just like, ah, fuck this game.
    9:09
    All right, well, very cool. How was that Stern tour? So I had an idea of kind of what I would see. I work in manufacturing, so I see manufacturing every day.
    9:19
    But what really made me go, wow, was seeing the amount of people working there and seeing how many people it takes to make these games and also the amount of effort that... So one of the things that we saw was they were kind of making all the wire harnesses right in the beginning when we walked in. So big boards with nails on them, just coiling different wires around the nails and kind of making the wire harnesses and zip-tying all the parts together. Then they actually take that and go test it for faults. So it's kind of cool to see that kind of stuff going into these games, saying we want to make sure what's going out the door is functioning, quality. How many people would you say were working on the floor when you were in there? I mean, was it 100? Oh, no, more than that. Oh, really? I just listened to Head to Head today, and they had Gary Stern on, and he said there's 350 employees. No, I know they had over 300 employees. That's why I asked. I was just wondering, like, on a shift, so they have maybe 200, 250 people. Oh, absolutely. Just kind of cranking away. It's crazy. That is. Everywhere you look, it's just people working on whatever part of the machine. I just think about that compared to, like, say, a place like Spooky, and you got, like, Charlie and his son, like, working on a game.
    10:35
    They got a few guys. No, no, I know. They do. But just the scale for pinball has just got to be amazing. Because even like Jersey Jack, they've got some people, they've got some lines, but they don't have anything like that. I mean, that's incredible. So I have not been to the JJP factory. I've been to their engineering office. And then this is my first time going to Stern. And then I have not been to Spooky. And it stinks because I'm going on vacation this Saturday, and American Pinball is having their open house. Wow. So if I was not going on vacation, I would definitely go hit that up, just to say I went and checked it out and was at the factory and all that. But the factory tour at Stern was extremely impressive.
    11:19
    And, you know, it's easy to kind of judge when mishaps happen. Like, I can't believe that. Like, why is this happening? Come on, guys, get it together. Right. You know, whatever ghosting play fields or whatever the issue was, you know, with the Ghostbusters, it's easy to kind of get worked up about that. But when you go and see it in person, you're like, ah, man, this is really a big effort. How is it there's more shit going wrong with this?
    11:43
    There's so much that's going on. There's so many people involved and so many parts and so much going on.
    11:50
    That's one of the things I've always told people about pinball that I appreciate is you look at the amount of effort and the people it takes to make one, and generally everything is working fine and has to work and flow together. Well, and the stuff with CERN, it seems like it hasn't been on the electrical or the mechanical side. Like I said, it's just materials maybe sourced or something. You talk about clear coating or whatever else. But, yeah, it sounds like they're quality control for – Yeah, they have steps in place to maintain all that stuff and keep it in check. And it was very, very impressive. And, like, I can't understate the amount of people it takes. It was insane. so hats off to all those people involved because it's not a small undertaking cheers to Stern for hiring all those god damn people making games hey that's a lot of jobs that they're creating in one place that's pretty awesome hey Drew what you drinking?
    12:48
    a drink which one? I'll give you one guess Kessler's ding ding whiskey and what do you got it's clear going sour? Not quite. Sprite? We are going dry. Oh, Canada dry. Oh, Canada.
    13:10
    My home and native land. Whiskey and ginger ale. That's for you, Orbital Albert. We appreciate you. Go ale. Alright, Ryan, what do you think? What are you drinking I am drinking Central Waters Barley Wine Ale You said that like a fancy commercial Like he getting paid Yeah that was awesome I'm real big into the bourbon barrel beers. Back up. Do that one more time. That was just too good to pass up.
    13:38
    What are you drinking today, Ryan? Central Waters Bourbon. Put me on the spot. Now it's just four. I drink half the beer, so now he's out the window.
    13:52
    I think this thing is like probably 12% alcohol. Well, I am having a Moscow Mule today. I'm feeling good. Okay, now you've got to sing Russia's theme song. Oh, Russia.
    14:07
    Something about Drago from Rocky IV. Your leaders are so good. All hail the motherland. It's Russia, la, la, la. Boom. We're cold.
    14:20
    And we're cold. Boom. All right. Well, we got through that. That was all right. That was less painful than I thought. Okay. Our buddy Orbital Albert. Is that how you say it? I think so, right? Yeah. Orbital Albert.
    14:33
    He had a top five pinball podcast, his favorite top five podcast. That was Designers. No, he just had a podcast one. Top five podcast. I've been listening to some of them. I just heard the Designer one. Yeah, this is, I don't know, two or three back. But guess where we ranked on this top five. Top five, seventh. I haven't heard this.
    14:57
    Yeah, top five. We must be number ten. That's the only thing I can think of. I hope we got top ten. So, Orbital, if you could just send an email over at poormanspinball at gmail.com. Let us know if we cracked the top ten yet, brother. It would be very interesting to see. But, yeah, I saw that one. What was the top five list? uh let's see number one was special and lit okay uh number two mrs pen maybe okay number three escapes me and number four would have been slap save so who's number five number five five was slap save four right four escapes me too yes and then i got three out of the somebody somebody else and then poor man's maybe this weekend pinball was in there i don't know i'm assuming the pinball media was in there the mafia so pinball mafia pinball mafia media mafia Drew, how's your Hobbit going?
    15:49
    Good. It's been working since the last episode. Got to give it one of those. No, I'm putting a lot of games on it. Like it, enjoy it. Oh, my poor man's pinball stadium lighting. Yeah, did you do that yet? I did. Does it work? It does.
    16:09
    Why are we laughing? As well as pin stadiums? You know what? I'm going to make... Scott, close your ears. I'm going to maintain this.
    16:19
    Game dependent, I'm going to go with this going forward. So if there's... Scott, keep your ears closed. Do you have hovers? I'm sorry. No, I'm interested to see that, and we'll talk about that in a second. But, you know, once again, it's a Simpsons. There's not a ton of crazy lighting in there, but I just wanted it to light up. It's got the little sensor. I can dim it. I can change colors. I can set patterns on it. You know, I can program it with the little remote that comes with it. So from a profile standpoint, exactly the same. I just use magnetic strips and, you know, aluminum housing. It's not tied into the GI, though, is it? Is it just on or off? No, it's just on or off. And, you know, I have the Amazon switches for my game, so when I turn it off, everything goes off. Because if you just turn off the pinball machine, the lights would stay on. so that is a downfall but like I said since I use the Amazon switches you got everyone knows what I'm talking about you just turn off everything and it just goes off so on my first go I'd give a 8 out of 10 I think it's and it's not just because I made it and it was cheap and and that thing but it's it it works really well and the game looks looks amazing so like I said unless I want some crazy tie-in to the flashers or the GI or something, I think I'm just going to stick with this method because of the expense and what I get for it. So poor man's pinball stadium lights. What about those hovers? Scott just released a new product. Got them on order. Hovers. They do look cool. I mean, for all of us who have known the... Yeah, so for what they are, if you haven't heard, please go to poor man's pinball... Or poor man's pinball. Poor man's pinball stadium lighting. Go to... No, no, no. No, that's not a site. Go to Penn Stadium and take a look at what Scott's got cooking over there. But the new hovers, they look like brackets, right? They fit on the side. Plastic clips, right? They're brackets. They're brackets that telescope, and they go on the rail on the play field itself. Yeah, so it clips on the wood of the play field. Yeah, so you can open and close your play field while having to remove the magnetic.
    18:35
    Yeah, which is nice. Nice. Never having to remove the pin stadiums again. They come with the play field. That's pretty badass. Next to what they did in that whirlwind for Zach Manning, that's probably pretty cool. Yeah, having them bedded. Yeah. So I talked to Scott, and I said, you got any left? He goes, yep. And I said, I will take a set. All right. Well, we're interested to see how that turns out. It's going to be on Dialed In. Nice. Well, we'll get a full review for you out there in podcast land for Penn Stadium Hovers. And if anyone's looking for poor man's pinball stadium lights, don't call me because they're paying the estimate, and I don't want to make any for anybody. Yeah, yeah, just buy them over at Penn Stadiums. Scott will hook you up. All right, sounds good, man, sounds good. Should we do our top five list? We have a top five segment. Top five. Top five, top five, top five. Very good, Drew.
    19:29
    So we're going to try something new. We're going to do a top five list, guys and gals. This week's top five list will be single pinball collection, meaning what game works best for a single pinball collection. I thought we were doing a top five list of a top five list. No. Sorry. That's next week? Top five, straight down the middle videos on their top five lists.
    19:57
    But no, we're going to do this. All right, so we're going to kind of start them from five. We're going to start. Okay, number five. Hey, man, I'm just making it up as we go. That's what we've been doing for 14 weeks, 13 weeks, ladies and gentlemen. All right, so in order, we'll go from five to one. Each goal will explain our piece, why we think this would be a good single pin. For those of you who are limited with space, limited in funds. Cough, cough. and can only afford one or only have one pin in your collection. Or you have to choose between another pin or your wife.
    20:32
    Is that anybody? Anybody? Bueller? Just you, brother. I'm getting another pin already. I know, I know. Willy Wonka's almost on the way. You'll be on wife two before you know it. Don't worry. You're still working on it.
    20:46
    Good thing she doesn't listen. Yeah, we love you, Kathleen. All right, so, Drew, do you want to start us off with number five? Yep. but I'm going to throw a little curve ball even just to get started. How's that? Perfect. Cause I don't know what we're doing. So since we're, since we're starting at number five and you know, I thought I would throw in an honorable mention, which would actually be number six. Ah, you like that? See what I did here. So I got, I got a bonus one. He's already fucking it up. All right, go for it, bro. What do you bring it? So my bonus one, cause I didn't know quite where to put it, but I was like, you know, if someone really is thinking about buying one pin, I'm just going to throw this out there to be helpful any 90's Williams Valley era pen you went with the whole well like I said it's an honorable you know what I mean though it's an honorable mention because there's a lot of them but anyone who would buy just one of those games even though some of them might have shallow rule sets they'll still be happy with having it in their collection can we agree on that? for a while you know uh uh uh totem or you know whitewater or funhouse or you know the list goes on and on that a lot of those games are just fun and you know if you have one it's one of those things hey you got a pinball machine that's awesome and if you're not if you're not a diehard like us you'll just enjoy playing it that's all so anyways drum roll please you guys suck at these drum rolls wow so my number five boom i uh i went back and forth funny you say that kapow batman 66 oh batman 66 you know i got to thinking i've played several games on this thing i want to get more i i think if you just have one pin i think that could be a really cool pin you know that the theme me not being much of a theme guy it's just it's cool you know all of us grew up watching you know adam west how neat is that um the animations are cool the sounds are cool it's a deep game you can play it you got francy art fun you got you got amazing art you know the old people like it yeah the young people like it great solid all-around pin good number five ryan what do you got i just put five games down i didn't really have them in a specific order, but... Put them in order. Put them in order, motherfucker.
    23:12
    I'm going to say Metallica. That's a good one. When I was making this list, it was mostly to say, okay, what's a good, well-rounded game for beginners and for... Very important for a one-pin collection. So it has to kind of mass appeal for beginners and people that are pinball people. And Metallica has that. It's got the Sparky for Center Bash toy for beginners. It's, you know, hit the guy in the middle, hit him in the middle, and he does a cool thing. And then for your seasoned veterans, you know, you crank it up. Crank it up. Yep, that's right. And several crank it ups and then all the other nuanced things involved.
    23:51
    I think it's a very good game for a single pin. Excellent. I really dig that, and that does show up later in my list. So, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. All right, all right. My number five, I actually had Batman 66 as well. Oh, my God.
    24:10
    I did because all the reasons you listed what that code is, it got so deep. And it's a good game. There's so many different ways you can play it. You don't have to necessarily follow it. It's not a linear game. I'm throwing my Hobbit off for trade bait, and that's going to be one on my list, by the way. All right. I thought that would be cool. I did have a 5B, though. It was crossed between the two. You can't mix shit up as you go along. Since you are, I'm going to try myself. I thought TNA would be a good one, too. But I thought TNA's... Can I change my answer? TNA's rule set is, although it's a deep game because it's difficult, and now they have all those great co-op modes, I don't know how long... Also on my trade bait list. Because it's a tough game. It's tough. It is tough. And it's very linear. I think that game shines better in multiplayer than a solo game. Right. Don't get me wrong. I'll play by myself all day. I play by myself all day every day. I have way more fun with that game playing in a group, like stealing locks and all sorts of crazy stuff like that.
    25:20
    That's why I didn't put it on my list as a single game by myself because it's like, well, if I'm by myself, it's... I get you, man. That's why I went Batman 66 for the win. But yeah, TNA was an honorable mention. I did think about that one. All right, number four. Drew, number four. Number four. I got a family-friendly favorite. Say that three times fast. Friendly family. Family-friendly favorite. Family-friendly. Yeah, we can't. Bzz, bzz, bzz.
    25:47
    So I'm a big comics fan, as everybody knows. And I wasn't into them in the comics, but pretty good movie. Guardians of the Galaxy. because it's good for the whole family. It's got a lot of relevance, especially now.
    26:04
    Call-outs are great. Shots are great. The code has come along great. We talked about Sparky. It's got Groot right in the center. Mr. John Borg designed that game as well.
    26:16
    So there you go. I think it's just an all-around, once again, a good pin. Another Franchi. Ooh, Franchi, I love you. See, I wasn't even... Franchi alert. Frenchie. Spoiler alert. Monsters is not on my list.
    26:34
    But the hexagons are. Right. Number four. Attack from Mars. Good choice. Again, mass appeal. It got the center bash toy It got all the other things associated with going deeper into the game It a Lyman game
    26:56
    Good light show. Great light show. I thought about putting Amoeba Madness on here because blowing up the castle is awesome, but I have more fun playing Attack from Mars. I think it's faster. It's kind of, I don't know. It's just. What do you think for, you know, we're obviously pinball people. Non-pinball people, which one do you think is the favorite? Maybe the man is. You think so? Yeah. But I agree with Ryan, though. I do find Attack from Mars more fun. I mean, don't get me wrong. I would not be upset if I had either one in my collection, but... And all the newbies will gravitate towards both. And the fact that they're both being remade right now and you get them brand new is awesome. Yep. And that's important for the one-pin collection because a lot of those people might not know how to work on machines or whatever. And it brought the price down. Yes. They're more affordable compared to what they used to be. They're out there and available, so that's nice.
    27:50
    All right, number four for me, number four, number four. Drew, you're going to be surprised a little bit, but I'm going Oktoberfest. What? Wow. What? It is purely because it's good old-fashioned family fun. There's a ton in that game to shoot for. It's bright. It's colorful. it's got any mech you want is probably in this fucking thing it's got all the magnets in the world and like I said just good old fashioned fun I'm not shocked at all we talked about this if you have a man cave you're going to go into distributor and there's going to be a lot of guys that are going to be fighting with their wives trying to get that game right let's be honest they're going to say hey honey I want to get this game and the wife's going to say no, you're not bringing a drinking game into our house. And, you know, I mean. When that game was announced, I was really, really disappointed. I was like, oh, that theme is not good. I had the opposite reaction. And I kind of still feel the same that way.
    28:56
    I was at Expo when it was unveiled, and I was like, eh. And I played it a lot at MGC with Josh Cougar there. So you weren't excited when it came out. No, not at all. Not at all, huh? I was like, oh my gosh, this theme is like a problem. And after playing it a lot at MGC, the layout is good, but it's the rules and the code that draws me in. Sure. And being really into Keith Johnson stuff. Because I think you're like me in that regard where theme takes a back seat to a good game, right? Yeah. I mean, I guess a better way to word that might be like a bad theme per se can be overcome by a great game. A game that you want to play, a fun game, or an awesome theme. Good rules, good layout, that will trump the theme. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not like... It's the best theme ever. It's not like that theme is so bad I'll never have one. I mean, that's not the case. I mean, I can't think of a game where I would say that. Where it's like the theme is so bad... Have you played Raven? awesome game yeah yeah i give it five cheeses insider joke sorry buddy but yeah no um i just everything ryan said i agree with 100 i think the code is deep enough where you are not getting sick no i think a single pin i mean it's well i think like what they did with the code like when you like the whole you ate too many calories now the flippers are going weak like if you know that that's cool but i think if you're on location you're going oh the game's broke yeah but piece of shit isn't that isn't that a lot of stuff in pinball though if you think about it i mean the inverted uh flippers and houdini simpsons that kind of thing i mean it's just a way to get more quarters though yeah yeah yeah i mean you're like but that's the kind of coding as someone who's into pinball that i really appreciate and it's like with Wizard of Oz the lights out mode when the lights go out, all the inserts are black and you're like okay, we're shooting in the dark I appreciate that even though I know that most people would be upset about that but I think it's very cool that there's that kind of thought process going into the rules in the game we brought up a couple Lyman games already in this list because Lyman is the king when it comes to that stuff as in he he codes for everybody he he codes for mass appeal ryan's a deep thought yeah i know ryan's not agreeing with this i know no no i'm not i'm not you do think you think of every lyman game okay uh-huh and like you said approachability you know you got you got sparky acdc is another one he did um you know the list goes on and on every single one of his games a beginner can go up to it and they know intuitively what to do but i would say the same thing about keith they both make low i know you want to defend your boy and keith's awesome i me and you share a lot of the same taste in games no but i would say he does i mean like look at lord of the rings which might be on my list um like the balrog maybe me too like when balrog swings out is it center bash toy like there there are those kinds of things in there but they both do an amazing job making rules deep for the... I was just talking more about pro-Lyman. I wasn't talking anti-Keith. That's where you're getting off center here. I'll defend Keith. I know you will. You're talking shit about Keith. And that's the other reason you and I are alike. Because if I was on the other side of this conversation, I'd be doing the same thing. I'd be like, well, what about this other guy's game? It's awesome. You're talking shit about Lyman. Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying, but Lyman specifically, he's very good at that. And I'm just sitting here touching myself. I mean, I think Stern is very, very fortunate. And I think he does. I mean, and that's not to take away from the other coders as well. Every coder and every designer has made games I love and games I'm not that fond of. No, and we can all say that. And if people want to compete in today's world, they have to do more like Lyman or Keith. And they have to be able to, like I said, draw everybody in because we're hardcore pinball people talking this stuff. We know this stuff. We can look it up. Most people aren't going to look up the rules. They're going to be like, oh, this thing's stupid. It doesn't work or whatever. No, I agree. So we can agree to disagree to agree. Number three, Drew. Number three. We got – we've been talking about this game a little bit too. first JJP entry, Wizard of Oz. I mean, we don't have to go into great detail. Everyone knows. It's family friendly. It's beautiful. It's approachable. It's so damn pretty. People walk away from it saying, I had a good time shooting this thing. I almost put it on, but the reason I didn't Ryan's shitting on me again no no no no I love it and I want one bad like I want a ruby red real bad um sounds like a personal problem so so bad um what I've noticed with talking with people like playing with people who really aren't into pinball they don't know what they're doing but that's for any pinball machine let's be honest Yeah, that's what I said. You give them a simple game and they're just shooting. But when they see Woz, they're like, I mean, that's a showstopper. People will walk past and they go, whoa, what is going on with this game? Like, it's got all the RGB lighting going on. It's, I mean, that game, I think, I don't even know if I should say this. Just say it. It might be like. This is the podcast where you can say anything with no regrets. Yeah, we don't have fans. nobody's listening so if you when you look at when that game came out and where we're at now okay so from then till now it's kind of sad actually it seems like games have been getting more simple per se um and i think that game was so packed and so awesome now and i understand the more you put in the more viable to break i get all that and the more it gets closer to eleven thousand five hundred dollars to sell a yellow version of it yes not at the time it was out though what was it out of the box 8500 new i think standard six it was six or 65 oh was it yeah and they were going in the hole brand new waz's they had a jacket price so good lord did you have a time machine and six thousand hold on let me go back to have six thousand dollars must be nice jack goes i'm gonna build a maserati and i'm gonna charge the honda price for it this is a great business model damn good lord all right well was very good man yeah awesome moving on i went stern star trek and i'm gonna say premium because i think the premium is better than the pro um not i mean it doesn't matter but that's my personal preference um that is my favorite Steve Ritchie game out of all his games.
    36:19
    There's just something about it. The funny thing is the center ship, the Bash toy, isn't really that much of a Bash toy compared to Sparky. It's not as hit as often as Sparky is. See, that's the thing. I love that game too. I don't consider that a Bash toy at all. It's something you hit it when you need to.
    36:40
    It's just different. But it's so fast and furious and flows so awesome and that war pramp is so awesome you start you know this is what this is the genius of steve richie because he said i don't like the theme i don't really care about it i don't give a shit about the theme that's on my list i might get a pro someday because i just love shooting that thing uh orbital albert i just heard him saying the exact same freaking thing like uh last week did you hear that one man lots of love orbital he's he's he's talking about it, he goes, Star Trek? I could give a shit about the theme. He goes, I know the thing's called the Enterprise. That's it.
    37:19
    He goes, I know nothing else about what's on there, what's going on on the screen. He goes, I'm not a Trekkie. And I'm just like, oh my god, you're speaking to me. And that's how I feel. That game could literally have nothing on it, Star Wars, and I would love firing it. Not on my list. Shooting it. Not on my list either. And I'm a diehard Star Wars fan. So for me to say that, that means a lot. And I know Steve Ritchie did both. But Steve, great job with Star Trek. I don't know. I'm not blaming him for what happened with Star Wars. I'm just saying Star Trek I can shoot all day long. Star Wars I cannot. Isn't that weird? Moving on. Number three for me. I'm going dialed in. Pat Waller, my boy Pat.
    38:07
    I just love how it shoots. Sorry, to speed this up, I'm piggybacking because that's my number two. So we'll just. Okay. Yeah.
    38:15
    Theme be damned. You have that in someone's basement? They're going to gravitate to it because it plays like butter. It shoots. It's probably one of the nicest shooting pins I've ever shot. If you don't know the theme, what it is, and nobody does. Well, I mean. You see that thing in your basement, right? It's impressive. It's a pinball machine. If you only have one machine and you have a dial in. That's my point. You're doing all right. Someone comes down. They see the big screen. they see like the cityscape on there and they're just like holy shit this is a pinball machine big lcd it just blows you away yeah that's all i really had to say about it it's just one of the you're doing all right if you see that you're playing and that's the only game you get to play i'm doing all right and it's deep as shit right ryan you have one it's it's deep enough i mean i so i watched that unveiling online that thursday they unveiled it at expo and i was like i had been following it for ever and i saw it and i was like oh my gosh i don't know if i like this and i went the following saturday and played it the moment i flipped it i was like i'm buying this game and i went and put my deposit down immediately and never regretted it my man my man so so dialed in number three all right andrew's number two and your number two dialed in drew dialed in All right, number two for you, Mr. Ryan. Number two for me is Lord of the Rings. It's also my number two, so we'll do a little. Well, there we go. Piggybacking. Piggyback. Sounds so gay when I say it. Why don't you speak to it? Well, here's the reason why I did Lord of the Rings, and now I'm almost kind of regretting it just because here's the thing. If you only have one pin and you want to just run down to the basement real quick and play a quick game, that's not the game you want to play. Because it's a long shooting game. It's long, but that's also the reason why I chose it at number two, because you can sit there. It makes you feel better at pinball. And you can play that game and it has everything in it So good job Stern for that And it just a beautiful machine to look at i couldn find any faults with it other than it a really long playing game so make sure you you carve out a little bit of time sorry i think this what do you think ryan you own it uh i think it's an amazing game i mean the reality is it's actually a fan layout with some diverters that changes up the play yeah so that's why it shoots so good um i actually question do i like as far as george gomez's games go do i like that more or monster bash and i think i have to go lord of the rings just because of the depth oh i would agree with you 100 it's it's just so good the depth alone monster bash is great monster bash is great i love it but yeah i would love it lord of the rings monster bash is that fun campy fun and like you said like a quick game come down It's approachable. It's very quick when I play it. For myself as well. Yeah, it's a bitch. But there's something about Lord of the Rings, like the call-outs too, like jackpot one. All that stuff, it's almost meme-worthy because it's become so popular. Drew, you had something to say.
    41:23
    I think this ginger ale I have has been sitting down here for a couple of weeks open. Yeah, that's gross, man. Get a new one. It's flat. Get a new one. You don't have to do that shit here.
    41:34
    You do not have to do that shit. Edit, edit, edit. All right, so Drew, what's your number two? Oh, wait, you did your two, right? That was dialed in. All right, so Drew, number one. Number one. Well, here's the thing. Oh, shit. We all know my love affair for Metallica.
    41:51
    And we already did Metallica. I know. Well, he's not going to. He's going to choose ACDC. What? No, I'm not going to choose ACDC. No, so we already talked about Metallica, so that is my number one. But as I'm scrolling through Pinside here, there's one that I kind of forgot that I was like, if you only had one pin, this might actually be a really good choice. So this isn't necessarily my number one, but this is just a really good, solid choice. Don't say it because you might ruin some of our number ones. I am the ruiner. Okay, fine. Go for it.
    42:24
    Ghostbusters. Ah, fuck that. Yeah, you're crazy. Okay, we're pinball people. No, I love that game. Hey, no, no. Here's the deal.
    42:34
    I think the artwork is amazing. The package of it is just... Well, the package is great until you play it, and you're like, this geometry is so jacked, and it's Airball City, cheap drains, but jumping over the lanes and stuff, it's just... I'm just thinking more about people that come over, and, you know, you have... Well, yeah, it's Ghostbusters. I mean, when that game was announced, I was like, this is an insta-buy. I'm buying this game. How can I not? It's Ghostbusters. Look at it. Look at the art. Listen to the sound package. Like, the way the game looks without playing it is amazing. The scope. If we never would have played it, I mean, that might be one of the best, like, just package-looking games ever. I remember the first couple times I played it, I'm like, something's wrong.
    43:25
    I'm not playing this right. It's me. It's not the machine. I always fault myself. Always. I'm a horrible pinball player. It's my fault. God, I wish I was better. Yeah, that's exactly what I say every time I play.
    43:38
    But with the air balls bouncing over the flippers and over the guide rails and all this stuff, it's just like, why do I have to go and buy third-party protectors to stop that from happening? Like, this game is a geometric mess. It's just, it is. And it sucks. I love that. And it sucks because I love everything else about it. And, I mean, Ghostbusters is my childhood. If we had trailer teasers, Geometric Mess would be in our trailer teaser. And the thing is, like, Zombie Yeti did such an amazing job with that R package. This podcast is a geometric mess.
    44:18
    And I talk to people who love the game, and I'm like, I don't get it. I don't understand why you love it. Like, is it just me or the flipper gap huge? Is it a big gap or is it just me? It's just, I don't know. I've said that a few times late at night. It's after bar close. Is this gap really that big or is it just me? How do you think that game would play if you just bought, like, super long flippers? Put them on there. It was a giant vagina joke.
    44:47
    Small penis, little vagina joke. Did you ever think of that? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's just, I don't know. It can't be fixed.
    44:57
    I don't know. Such a great tee-up ready for the home run, and then just couldn't. When they unveiled it, I was like, finally. But that's another instance, though, where people who don't know pinball would be playing it and be like, this is amazing. Well, no, that's the thing. What does Stern nail with casuals? Yeah, Star Wars is one of the best earners. Star Wars. After three years. Ghostbusters. Yeah. Deadpool. Guardians of the Galaxy. Yeah, every time they bring one out. When it comes to pop culture stuff, that's mass appeal. I noticed you didn't mention Munsters. Probably not earning as well as those others you mentioned. Maybe it is. I don't know. Well, it may be in some of the bars it is. See, here's the thing about those games.
    45:42
    Would I own them? No. Will I play them on location? Absolutely. Oh, we've been saying that all along. Like Deadpool? I'll play it every time I see it. It's just fun to shoot. It doesn't have that take-my-money, gotta-have-it feel. Whereas the other games on this list do. Okay, fair enough. Ryan, what's your number one? Number one is going to be a JJP game. Yep. It's one I do not have. Yep. Willy Wonka. Nope.
    46:16
    Pirates. pirates almost made my list they did that is also my number one is it we did all right right we did all right pirates started as my number five and it got bumped down it is when i look at that game the first thing i say to myself is this is one beautiful looking game it is and if you have the chance to see a collector edition with that topper oh that topper the topper that goes it's not that loud don't be a dick it's not it's not it's not as loud as people make it out to be i've never heard it i'll never own one i don't have that kind of money so i just gotta come to league you'd see one oh we're gonna go to league we'll go to league um i did go to league i didn't see one the other league oh the other league that i don't have time for um sorry mr time oh hush i don't have much of um there's something about and when playing it like for eric's first game i think it's a home run no i i agree i i think once again you put that thing in your basement much like the dialed in if someone just came down that's your only game it's just gonna blow everybody away i think a non pinball player when they see that ship rocking they're gonna go whoa what is going on here yeah and then we can load a ball and shoot it like a cannon at the other ship like that's yeah and imagine how much more that is impressive to a casual because you know it's impressive to us when we look at this stuff every day but someone who knows a little bit about pinball and then they see something like that and they're like holy shit pinball can do this yeah like you know that's that's impressive oh yeah i chose it number one um just for the complete package super deep rule set super deep rule set is that a keith johnson rule set it's not lineman sheets baby super deep rule set um but yeah i agree with everything you just said ryan it's a it's a fucking gorgeous machine and and i would love to get more time on it um i'll Join league number two, I guess.
    48:32
    No, the other league. The other league. But, yeah, on location, they're still probably asking $2 a fucking play. I'm sure. I'm too fucking cheap for that. You know, it is crazy because, yeah, you're like, okay, cool, I'm going to play it. And you put in your two bucks and then like. Three instant drains. Yeah, 30 seconds later, you're like, what, no ball saves? Well, that left. That left. In lane, I'll win. In lane. It fucking sucks ass. If you don't know what the hell you're doing. which i didn't so it was a bad it was a bad day uh once again you know they haven't figured out the balance either of location to home yet well you know it is what it is but i will say this about pirates uh it's worth your bang it's best bang for your buck because you know you could sell it and make a little bit of coin too so that's see that i was i was going to get it i was going to get it and then hobbit fell in my lap and i'm like uh it's i can't let this go it's a good deal and now i kind of go probably still should have got pirates because i can still get a hobbit yes well you can still get jjp pirates but you're gonna pay i'll trade you my habit for your pirates i almost bought one of pirates i was really really drunk and i had my credit card out I don't even care. And I'm going to buy this. And then I texted Drew, and Drew goes, whoa, that's a huge purchase. I was like, well, now I'm having second thoughts. And by the way, he didn't try talking him out of it.
    50:02
    He's just like, whoa, that's awesome. I was like, Drew is, all right, maybe I should do this one. I'm sober. I woke up. I was like, whew, that was close.
    50:14
    Discover would have loved that one. I'd still be paying that fucker off. Think of the points. oh the points I'd sell it but I have to give it right back to Discover anyway you could have got a free Discover duffel bag if you would have bought that you know it brother you know it alright man well top 5 I thought that was a pretty good list I think we did good man maybe we should put up a poll or something and say who had the better list I don't know I thought I liked all of our lists they were pretty close yeah I think we all had the same idea not you your stroke No, you're such. But Ryan's a nice one. Really good. All right. He don't mean that. I'm just kidding, brother. I love you. Always crying in his whiskey, everybody. You're all right, brother. I love you. All right, man. Well, cool. Closing. Let's wrap it up. Wrap her up. We're over on time.
    51:03
    It's time, you silly bastards. It was fun. We'll see you next week when Drew will be drinking whiskey and pretending to know something about pinball. and we'll be streaming this Thursday right we're going to stream 7.30 central time what are we streaming we don't know yet do we know the time we're going to shoot for 7.30 central um to be determined I'm trying to think it's one of two and I don't want to give out which one is who because it's not special and we know us we're very special so thank you very much and we will be there on TurboGrafx7 that's T-U-R-B-O-G-R-A-F-X-7 underscore no no underscore I was able to finally claim no underscore and finally be only did you find him and punch him in the face no I just checked to see if it was available and it was my story was so much cooler after like 4 years of checking it was finally available he had a team of lawyers and what they did was they went after him there's only one TurboGrafx7 how did this happen? I typed it in and said it's available so I took it awesome then he saved a baby in a burning building it's all good, it's all relative thank you everybody send your email to us over at poormanspinball at gmail.com like us on Facebook, Poor Man's Pinball Podcast check us out this Thursday at Brian Kuyper's TurboGrafx7 stream where we will be streaming a title that is TBD baby we are streaming TBD and maybe we might join a league or two just so we can play Pirates some more so alright well thank you everybody later goodnight peace
    53:07
    We'll be right back.