Exploring the Winchester Mystery House – A Haunted Pinball Machine from Barrels of Fun

Dirtypool Pinball·video·21m 0s·analyzed·Oct 13, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Winchester Mystery House preview: innovative haunted house game with rotating turntable, Pepper's Ghost effect, board game progression.

Summary

Jeff Dodson from Dirty Pool Pinball and Carl D'Angelo, designer of Winchester Mystery House (Barrels of Fun's third game), discuss the creative vision, mechanics, and development of the haunted house-themed pinball machine. They cover the game's innovative features including a rotating turntable, Pepper's Ghost optical effect, board game-inspired room progression, inline drop targets, and extensive content at launch including six room modes, two multiballs, and hidden elements. The interview emphasizes creative freedom from the small Winchester IP license, the game's risky artistic direction, and the collaborative effort of the team.

Key Claims

Winchester Mystery House license has been in Barrels of Fun's acquisition since before Labyrinth
high confidence · Jeff explicitly states this during the opening discussion of IP acquisition strategy
The license provided complete creative freedom with minimal pushback from licenser (only restriction was using 'spirits' instead of 'ghosts')
high confidence · Jeff and Carl discuss the benefits of a small license and mention the only licenser restriction
Carl D'Angelo visited the actual Winchester Mystery House approximately 20 years ago on a trip to California Extreme
high confidence · Carl directly states this personal history and describes specific architectural features that inspired the game
The game features six room modes at launch: basement, daisy bedroom, séance room, Venetian dining room, twin dining rooms, and kitchen
high confidence · Carl explicitly lists all six modes during the 'what's in the game at launch' section
Winchester will have two multiballs at launch: Sans multiball and Will o' the Wisp multiball
high confidence · Carl confirms both multiballs during content discussion
The turntable mechanic started small with two exits and grew to eight exits during development
high confidence · Carl describes the organic evolution of the turntable feature from initial concept to final design
The game includes a tutorial feature where players can hold the action button to learn basic gameplay
high confidence · Carl describes the tutorial system in detail, comparing it to Centaur's flipper-button feature
Jeff Dodson handled music and sound design using a Yamaha 2024 chip from classic games like Twilight Zone and Addams Family
high confidence · Jeff explicitly describes his chip selection and sound design philosophy during the audio discussion

Notable Quotes

“The best part about having a small license like this is that we had complete creative freedom. No push back from the licenser. Like, we could literally do and put everything that we wanted to into this game.”
Jeff Dodson @ early discussion — Highlights strategic advantage of small IP licenses vs. major franchises; explains why Winchester was chosen over bigger properties
“The only push back was they wanted us to—we couldn't say 'ghosts' or something. We had to use the word 'spirits,' I believe.”
Carl D'Angelo @ license discussion — Confirms minimal creative constraints from licenser; small but notable terminology requirement
“I took the Yamaha 2024 chip, one of my favorite sound design chips that was in games for, you know, the Super Famicom series, Twilight Zone, Addams Family... this game reminds me of games that have like a soul, for lack of a better term.”
Jeff Dodson @ sound design section — Explains sound philosophy and positions game as intentional homage to classic pinball audio aesthetic
“This is the most honest thing we could do to talk about the game. We're just all of us real people trying to make a really cool pinball machine, and it happened.”
Jeff Dodson @ closing — Frames the game as genuine passion project rather than corporate product; addresses broader industry criticism about launches
“There's something that we have in the game that isn't even announced... if someone does find what we just talked about, I think they'll be really pleased because it just shows that we're putting stuff in the game to make the game even better without using it as like a marketing point.”
Carl D'Angelo @ secret content discussion — Teases unrevealed gameplay feature; suggests Easter egg strategy and player discovery as marketing approach
“Pepper's Ghost doesn't look great on filmed footage just because of how the backbox like projects on the glass. In person looks awesome, right?”
Jeff Dodson @ technical discussion — Acknowledges limitation of video coverage for optical effects; warns against judging video footage

Entities

Carl D'Angeloperson Jeff Dodsonperson Winchester Mystery Housegame Barrels of Funcompany David Vanessperson Ericperson Brad Albright

Signals

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community_signal: Emphasis on honest, authentic communication about game development as counterpoint to broader industry criticism about problematic launches; positioning creators as 'real people' invested in quality
high · Jeff: 'I'm trying to do, you know—everyone talks about how this launch is bad, that launch is bad. It's just like, this is the most honest thing we could do to talk about the game. We're just all of us real people trying to make a really cool pinball machine, and it happened.'
?
design_philosophy: Post-prototype design changes during manufacturing phase; specific example: doll room mode redesigned during production because initial design wasn't fun despite careful planning
high · Carl explains doll room redesign: 'The idea was... you have to put the jewelry on the right doll... but it just wasn't fun to play. So we've reworked that mode into something that hopefully is more fun... Just because we want things to be fun.'
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design_philosophy: Inline drop targets as deliberate retro design reference and mechanical novelty; positioning as differentiator vs. contemporary games; callback to valley games design language
medium · Jeff emphasizes 'I also love that this game has something that I don't think a lot of games have these days, which is inline drop targets. It's a real small thing.' Carl confirms inline drops were intentional design choice with historical precedent in valley games
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design_philosophy: Intentional inclusion of undisclosed Easter eggs and hidden features not used for marketing; philosophy of surprise player discovery and organic delight
high · Carl: 'There's something that we have in the game that isn't even announced... if someone does find what we just talked about, I think they'll be really pleased because it just shows that we're putting stuff in the game to make the game even better without using it as like a marketing point.'

Transcript

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0:01

I've been looking forward to making this video for a couple of months to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because we get to, you know, if Yeah. Because we get to, you know, if we've done this right, this is going to be a surprise to a lot of people. I imagine it will be. I imagine it will be. Hopefully. Hopefully. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh I'm Jeff from Dirty Pool Pinball, and Uh I'm Jeff from Dirty Pool Pinball, and I'm joined by Carl D'Angelo, the creator and designer of Barrels of Fun Game 3, the Winchester Mystery House. Very

1:00

glad we're here. And you uh had a role in project as well. You're the uh I did did music and sound designer. music and sound designer. I can stop. I can stop. I can stop dancing around the am I just I can stop dancing around the am I just doing Dune? That's why you stop streaming. That's why you stop streaming. That's true. I if you've noticed I have That's true. I if you've noticed I have not been streaming as much and that's because we have been working very hard for many months on this project. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so so let's talk about that. What is Uh so so let's talk about that. What is the M the Winchester? What is the Winchester Mystery House? I think that we're gonna get this question and I think the question that people are going to ask is why is this game not Fifth Element? Why is this game not Bladeunner? And uh I have some thoughts on that and then I want to throw it to you to talk a little bit more. Okay. Okay. Uh so when this IP has been in Barrel's Uh so when this IP has been in Barrel's acquisition since before Labyrinth. This is what David calls the phase one uh kind of like games from Barrels. Right. And the best part about having a small And the best part about having a small license like this is that we had complete creative freedom, no push back from the licenser, like we could literally do and put everything that we wanted to into this game. And I I think that when people see it, they're going to realize that this is like kind of a special game. Like you've made a really special game. I don't every every person that's actually got to play it now that it's past the prototype phase and the real manufactured units are happening are just like this is amazing. We everyone's so excited to get this out so people can play it. Yeah, it's really come together well. It Yeah, it's really come together well. It really has. And the license was amazing to work with. Like you said, nothing. The only push back was they wanted us to The only push back was they wanted us to we couldn't say ghosts or something. We had to use the word spirits, I believe. But so the second reason is you love haunted houses and specifically Winchester. I always have. And yeah, I remember visiting the Winchester 20 years ago or something on a trip to California Extreme. My wife and I went and the the house just fascinated me with its staircases to nowhere, the door that leads outside to a, you know, a drop outside the house, the doors in the middle of the floor, windows, the 13 used everywhere in the house, lights, uh, the stained glass has 13 orbs in it. Just a whole bunch of unique features in the house. It's It's really I was sad when I heard that you didn't make it to it. Well, you know, I wasn't told that I was Well, you know, I wasn't told that I was part of that project at that point. Oh, is that why? Okay. Oh, is that why? Okay. Um, so for people that don't I didn't Um, so for people that don't I didn't know anything about the Winchester Mystery House. Like when I was told the IP, my answer was the what, right? And that's what most people will right? And that's what most people will be, right? And I think that if you're right? And I think that if you're watching this video and you're wondering what the hell Winchester is, instead of googling the house, you should continue watching this to learn about the pinball machine. Right. So tell me, you talked about the Right. So tell me, you talked about the rooms. It's kind of a board game and there's two mechanics in it that are just like awesome. Uh, one resolves an issue that I have with a lot of pinball machines, which is like shot diversity. And you've kind of taken a concept to like the the 10 or the 13th, I guess I should say. But you really took an idea and and sent it to to the maximum degree. Can you can you tell what the concept? You're talking about the rotating halls, You're talking about the rotating halls, I assume, for sure. which is this turntable mech and that it's prominent on the game. It's probably the second most prominent feature. The first thing you're going to see in the game is the house and the peppers ghost box. It's got three different entries at the bottom that you can go through. Eight different positions and eight different locations around the whole thing. So, there's a whole bunch of I'm not going to calculate how many paths that are, but there's a lot there's a lot of paths, a lot of ways to exit. Two scoops that go into a subway inside the turntable itself. Um, and then a ramp that goes nowhere, which is a fun bit. I love when the magnet grabs the ball, rotates the turntable, and sends it down into the basement. That's fun. It's got a cool sound, too. It's got a cool sound, too. And yes, it does. And yes, it does. Um, I also love that this game has Um, I also love that this game has something that I don't think a lot of games have these days, which is inline drops. It's a real small thing. Yeah. And, uh, I I just think inline drops are And, uh, I I just think inline drops are really, really fun. I think of a few games that I are a big fan of those on, you know, Buck Rogers, uh, you know, or not Buck Rogers, what is it? What's the I'm [ __ ] this up. We're going to have to cut over this. What's the red one that you had forever that you just I got destroyed on that when we were doing Winnipeg at your place a long time ago. Flashord. That's the one. Flash cord. That's the one. Flash cord. Yeah, a lot of little valleys had had Yeah, a lot of little valleys had had inline drops. Internet's going to tear me up over Internet's going to tear me up over that. I might keep that in. I'm going to rotate. I'm going to rotate. Uh anyways, so the second feature in it I would say that's really noticeable, like you said, is the the peppers ghost. Yeah. And uh Barrels is known for putting two displays in the game, but this time it's it's there, but it's done in a really different way. Can you can you talk about that? Well, it's it's on the back. You know, Well, it's it's on the back. You know, all the displays have been on the back panel of the game. So, instead we wanted to do something unique for this game. We wanted some way of putting the ghosts inside the house on the playfield. And we tried a couple different iterations of things. And this is what we landed on was this pepper go Pepper's ghost box sitting on the back of the playfield surrounded by the sculpt of the Winchester Mystery House. Um, so the ghost will show up on that screen. We're going to have the elements where the ball, you know, when it gets captured on a magnet that's inside of that box. Um, it'll have spiderw webs that come on it. Hopefully get some ghosts that are reacted to the ball. Various things. So, and because the ball path actually goes through where the the peppers ghost is, and it's a really predominant ball path. and it's a really predominant ball path. Like the right orbit is a pretty frequently used shot. Uh, it's got pretty honk and return speed. It's like it's a very exciting shot if you're not ready for it. And uh, yeah, I don't know. That part's really great. It is cool that you can see through the box transparently and it also acts as a display. So, it does give you kind of like both things. U, but okay. So, talk about like it it is a board game kind of, right? And I really love how the jackpots build. So like you start the game and there's a mechanic that you have immediately that is built into the game in terms of building jackpot value. Can you talk about Well, you're talking about the mode Well, you're talking about the mode value, right? Yeah. So instead of just having a regular, you know, shoot a scoop, select your mode, and the mode starts. I wanted to make it a little more dynamic. So there's a there's two phases of the game. There's a travel phase, and then there's the in room phase. So the travel phase is you you have a series of shots that are lit right when the game starts and whichever shot you make that's the room you're going to travel to and so you see this giant insert pattern the map that you're talking about the board game has little dots just like uh you know family circus right exactly cuz we wanted time you had right exactly cuz we wanted time you had to travel from one room to the next and as you travel anything you shoot is and as you travel anything you shoot is building value towards your next room so and once you're at that room you can use a key to move on to another room if you want to build that value even more. So there's, you know, there's the riskreward factor there. You can keep moving on, try to build your value. If you drain, you lose some of it or you can just take the room that you or you can just take the room that you land at and play that mode. Awesome. I mean, one of my favorite Awesome. I mean, one of my favorite things in Yeah, I think Ellen games have this a lot is that, you know, there's a sequence of building the value of a jackpot and then collecting it. And usually it's saved for mini wizard modes or big multiballs, but you've literally built it into the kind of main state of the game, right? And I think that's for me that's awesome because that dopamine is like right off the bat. So, one thing we talked about when I So, one thing we talked about when I came over to play one of the prototypes was I was like, man, I'm concerned like people are going to be so confused. Like, how are they going to figure out how to play this game? And uh but you've worked some stuff to try to make it accessible. I know that's an awful word, but this game is the opposite of safe. Like, we have done nothing but take risks in terms of its style, the art package that Brad, Josh, Julian put together for it. Incredible. You know, the animation assets that Trent did. I mean, like everybody decided to just go ham and make a really decided to just go ham and make a really unique game. And even your your work is not safe And even your your work is not safe either. No, it is not. I took Thank you for No, it is not. I took Thank you for pointing that out. I took a, you know, the Yamaha 2024 chip, one of the favorite sound design chips that was in games for, you know, the Super Pen series, the Twilight Zone, Adam's Family. I mean, tons of famous games have this. You know, we tried to to build the audio landscape around that so the game would have character. And I think that when I first came and played the prototype at your place, I was like, man, it's like this game reminds me of like the games that have like a soul, for lack of a better term. like it really it really does feel like a labor of love and not just like a manufactured product. Um, but back to the how do you get people to play it or understand it if they're a new player? Like what are some of the things that you tried to help to guide people through this experience? to guide people through this experience? Well, all the rooms are colorcoded. So, Well, all the rooms are colorcoded. So, you'll see it on the map, you'll see it on the screen, the colors of the rooms flashing, and then the shots have that matching color. So, you know, if you want to go to this room, it's blue. You see this shot's blue. You make that shot to go to that room. and so on. We're also going to be putting a tutorial in the game that I don't think has been done before really except for maybe Centaur. I remember Centaur had a thing. We hit a flipper button and it it listed out some features. So, the idea is when when you start the game, you're going to be asked if you want to you're going to be asked if you want to hold down the action button and then we'll give a brief tour of how to start a mode, how to get tour of how to start a mode, how to get to a room, how to play Sans multiball, how to play will bear ghost multiball. just the basics, just the, you know, just to get people started in case they're curious. And I had I was on the uh Bash podcast And I had I was on the uh Bash podcast uh and when we were in uh at Stern and we were talking about how there need to be better tutorials for how to play games cuz there's only so much you can put on a card for a new player. And uh I think predominantly this game And uh I think predominantly this game is going to click with home collectors. I think I was going to say before you go any I was going to say before you go any further that there's no room for a card in this game. That's true. And do you know and why is That's true. And do you know and why is that? Because we have a spirit board on the Because we have a spirit board on the apron. That's right. A lit spirit board. The entire apron for the game is part of The entire apron for the game is part of the experience. It is not only illuminated. It not only gives you information and feedback of what's going on, it tells you what balls up. It tells you like it is now part of the experience. No more just a wasted space of metal. If we can put LEDs in it, we're going to There's so much in this game. It's your There's so much in this game. It's your first like major solos designed experience. Yeah. How do you even begin to approach the like philosophy of putting all these ideas in? I mean, you've been a a mogul of the pinball community for decades, and people have been curious about when you were going to be designing a game, whether you think or not. Uh, and it's here. So, what what was it like filtering out So, what what was it like filtering out the ideas that should or shouldn't go into the game? I mean, it all started on the with the I mean, it all started on the with the turntable really, and it just kind of grew from there. Um, organically. It was kind of fascinating. Actually, the turntable started out really small. It only had two interested in exits. It was originally just like a diverter for a for a ramp. And then I grew it in size and grew it in size until it's what it is today with the with the eight exits where they had different paths. Um I don't know how to how to answer that apart from that. It just it just kind of all flowed out. Some days were some days I'd have moments of inspiration and get a lot done and figure out, oh yeah, this is working perfectly over here. This is working this doesn't work well. or other days I would just it's like almost having writer's block I guess as weird as that sounds pinball designing writer's block. I remember when you uh you know I was I was told about the project I was approved on it and you were like here let me send you this design doc and you send me this monstrosity of a document. It's it's monstrosity of a document. It's it's like 100 pages long. It's got design schematics built into it. It's got descriptions for character backgrounds every mode. I mean like this game was so planned out that every single element of it has gone through is it the is it fun filter and even up to close to release date which we are now you've made changes to try to maximize the fun. Uh we mentioned the the doll room. Yeah. What are some of the changes that Yeah. What are some of the changes that you kind of went through on that when you realized feeling the game that it just wasn't as fun as it was on paper? Right. Yeah. the the idea there. I mean, Right. Yeah. the the idea there. I mean, people have seen the game or maybe they're seeing it soon. So, I wonder we have these creepy dolls in that room, seven creepy dolls. And the idea was that uh you got this little ghost girl playing the room, Marbel, and she's pulling jewelry out of her jewelry box, and she has to you have to put the jewelry on the right doll. If the doll if you gave it to the wrong doll, she would scream or the dolls would glow red eyes and and and start the music would get all funky thanks to you. Um but it just it wasn't fun to play. So we've re reworked that um reworked that mode into something that hopefully is more fun. Sure. Sure. Just to cuz we want things to be fun. Just to cuz we want things to be fun. If you're coming, it's going to be at If you're coming, it's going to be at Pinball Expo. We could probably talk about that which this is probably coming out a few days before Pinball Expo. So, if you're seeing this and you're coming to Pinball Expo, I absolutely urge you to come and find Barrels of Fun, we will be there. And uh well, assuming something horrible doesn't happen.

13:55

It is a ghost game. It is a ghost game. We really tried to capture a very specific vibe with this game because it's it's scary, but it's not it's it's it's scary, but it's not it's it's playful in certain areas, but it's also really intense in others, like depending on, you know, which multiball and stuff you're in. When you see the game, it's it's it's like it's very risky with its artwork. I mean, we went ham with the color scheme. It was just like, [ __ ] having a boring playfield. Like, [ __ ] having a boring playfield. Like, this is a loud game. Yeah, it is. It is very loud. Yeah, it is. It is very loud. Um, and in like the best possible way, Um, and in like the best possible way, at least to me. I mean, you can't please everybody, but I think that when you come and see this game, it's it's special. And there's something I I'm gonna beep this out, but there's something that we have in the game that isn't even known announced. You know, we had the play field so that it it has that like and that's really it's really cool. it's really cool. Yeah. And you're beeping that out. Yeah. Yeah. And you're beeping that out. Yeah. Yeah. But if someone does find what we Yeah. But if someone does find what we just talked about, I think they'll be really pleased I think they'll be really pleased because it just shows that we're putting stuff in the game to make the game even better without using it as like a marketing point. When people find out what this element is, I think they're going to be like, "That's amazing and hilarious." Uh, and I hope they do. At some point, we may have to bite the bullet and actually show people. No, someone will find it. No, someone will find it. You think so? How long do you think till You think so? How long do you think till someone finds? two to 3 months. That's your guess. That's your guess. I'm going to guess that. Yeah, I'm going to guess that. Yeah, I think that's probably right. I think that's probably right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right. So, let's talk about Um, all right. So, let's talk about what's in the game at launch. There's obviously whenever a game comes There's obviously whenever a game comes out, people are like, is it feature complete? What's in it? What's not? And uh so we're going to talk about And uh so we're going to talk about what's exactly in the game so you know what's expected and that we are busting ass to continue to put new stuff in the game, right? So, let it rip. So, let it rip. All right. So, we have six room modes All right. So, we have six room modes total. We've gonna have the the basement, the daisy bedroom, the seance room, the Venetian dining room, the twin dining rooms, and the kitchen. All those are unique modes. It's the entire first floor of the It's the entire first floor of the house, which doesn't really not completely the first floor, but yes. not completely the first floor, but yes. But yes, the low on the map, it's the lower section of the house. The Sarah's bedroom or no, the Daisy bedroom is actually on the second floor of the house if you go visit the house. They don't know that. They don't know that. But now they do. But now they do. They do now. Yeah. Um, there's another They do now. Yeah. Um, there's another item in the you'll see it when you're playing the game in the upper right of the screen. It's has a big 13. So, there's five 13 features. These are loops, combos, keys collected, stuff like that. And they and they have like a little And they and they have like a little mini mode associated. And they all Yeah. After you collect 13 And they all Yeah. After you collect 13 of these items, you have a little mini mode that you play and then not at launch, but there'll be a once you get all five of those, there'll be another mode beyond that. There's the wizard mode associated with There's the wizard mode associated with acquiring all of the 13s. Right. Exactly. And then and then we Right. Exactly. And then and then we have Sans's multiball. So that's the primary multiball for the So that's the primary multiball for the game. And then we should also have Will Ghost multiball it looks like. Mhm. And this and this game really is Mhm. And this and this game really is packed. I mean everything from the enormous Winchester mystery house sculpt in the back to you know the entire like backbox that's in there. The platter. There's multiple ramps. You've got drop targets, subway systems, inline drops, locks. There's a crystal ball seance table on the left that releases to it. There's a kickback. There's a diverter on the ramp. There's a spiral. There's a spinner. There's a tower that falls over. There's a door that uh opens up. There's a door that uh opens up. There's a door at the end of a ramp. There's a door at the end of a ramp. There's also a inclined ramp that has a deadend magnet on it that stops it and then it releases it back into it. I mean, like there's so much [ __ ] in this game. I don't know how I got away with it, but I don't know how I got away with it, but David somehow let you know just let me do what I wanted with it. So you're getting tons of modes, two multiballs and side modes as well. And then the multiplier rules are in And then the multiplier rules are in the, you know, there's a whole bunch of other side stuff that's in, you know, just just little bits and pieces that And you have been working tirelessly And you have been working tirelessly to bug hunt this game. We are making the most conceited effort to try to get this as rock solid as possible. Right. Of course. Right. Of course. And that's always the always what we're And that's always the always what we're striving for. Absolutely. But being your game, you Absolutely. But being your game, you have been working daily getting bug reports, sending them to Eric, getting it all worked out so that people that come to expo, people that buy the game and get one of the earliest versions of it are getting a solid game. It it it should be. Yes, absolutely. And It it it should be. Yes, absolutely. And Eric's a and every, you know, he's he's a I mean, just he's a I mean, just he's not like turns around in an instant he's not like turns around in an instant just about I mean, not instant, but you know, as soon as he can, he always fixes everything I send to him or he adds features or changes things around. And I must drive him crazy, especially with by rewriting an entire mode. He's already written it this way and I changed it to this way. Before you even finish explaining how Before you even finish explaining how you want the mode to be done, he's already like reprogrammed it, too. So, shout out Eric, the entire team. I think I mentioned pretty much everybody, but also, you know, David Vaness and Brian as well for really just trusting us to make a game that we wanted to make. Yeah. Yeah. So, thank you. So, thank you. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, David. Uh, all right. Again, Thank you, David. Uh, all right. Again, I want to thank you, Carl. I Carl hates doing interview stuff. I absolutely made him do this because I'm trying to do, you know, everyone talks about how this launch is bad, that launch is bad. It's just like this is the most honest thing we could do to talk about the game. We're just all of us are real people trying to make a really cool pinball machine and uh it happened. So, I hope so. Hope you all like it. I hope so. Hope you all like it. That it? You don't want to tell the That it? You don't want to tell the people anything else? I don't know what else to say. I'm not I don't know what else to say. I'm not Again, I'm not an interviewer. I don't I don't do this kind of stuff. Well, I don't know. Tell them to go play the I don't know. Tell them to go play the game. Oh, yeah. Come play the game at Expo. Oh, yeah. Come play the game at Expo. We'll have uh for I believe sitting there. So yeah, we should it'll be a good time and then uh buy a it'll be a good time and then uh buy a Winchester Mystery House after if you like it. You should always play a game first You should always play a game first before you buy it. But if you do enjoy this game, tell everybody because it flows amazing. The changing platter is incredible. The Pepper's Ghost thing looks so cool in person. We should touch base on that. Pepper's ghost doesn't look great on filmed footage just because of how the backbox like projects on the glass in person looks awesome, right? So, uh yeah, don't be deterred by right? So, uh yeah, don't be deterred by that. Um yeah, and if you find the weird secret thing that we're talking about, let us know. Anyways, all praise the great pyramid. I'm going to make Carl do it.