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Episode 6 - Kaneda (Part 2) / TWIPY TALK

Nudgecast·podcast_episode·1h 0m·analyzed·Feb 28, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Twippies coverage, Barrels of Fun intel, Kaneda drama, and pinball marketing philosophy.

Summary

Ian Jacoby (Nudge Magazine) and Shane Told discuss their experience at the Twippies (annual pinball industry awards) in Texas, including production logistics, Barrels of Fun's creative approach and upcoming unannounced game, and a significant on-stream meltdown by Kaneda after losing the Best Podcast category to Electric Bat despite having the most first-place votes. The conversation covers award show dynamics, community sentiment, and broader pinball industry marketing philosophy.

Key Claims

  • Barrels of Fun's next game is 'getting very close' but will not be shown until ready for public reveal.

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby recounting direct conversation with Brian (Barrels of Fun co-founder) at Twippies: 'He's like, it's getting very close, but it's not ready yet and we want to show it to you when it's like ready.'

  • Barrels of Fun could position itself as a top-3 or top-4 sized manufacturer if they maintain quality and production pace similar to Jersey Jack and Spooky.

    medium confidence · Ian Jacoby opinion: 'if they are, you know, start churning out games at a reasonable pace, then, you know, they're kind of in that conversation, you know, around, you know, Jersey Jack Pinball, Spooky Pinball, like they could be kind of in that number three, number four sized company.'

  • Kaneda's Pinball Podcast received significantly more first-place votes (289) than Electric Bat (170) but lost overall due to weighted voting system counting second and third-place votes.

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby explaining Twippies voting results: 'he had 289 and the next best had like 170 or something' and 'Electric Bat ended up winning.'

  • A Comcast outage in Houston forced the Twippies broadcast to run on a phone hotspot for the remainder of the show.

    high confidence · Shane Told: 'there was a Comcast outage in Houston... We were running it off a hotspot on somebody's phone then for the rest of the night.'

  • Barrels of Fun solicited community input on theme preferences via a survey distributed at the event.

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby: 'they asked us what themes we wanted to see, and I proceeded to get barbecue sauce all over mine, but I still turned it in.'

  • Brian (Barrels of Fun) has prior licensing experience from working with GI Joe.

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby: 'he worked for GI Joe, like he worked with GI Joe and did tons of licensing with them.'

  • Kaneda gained subscribers as a direct result of his Twippies meltdown and loss.

    high confidence · Shane Told: 'he made a point to tell me he's like, and I got more subscribers than yesterday.'

Notable Quotes

  • “We're not going to show you the game today because we're going to show it to you when it's ready and it's getting close.”

    Brian (Barrels of Fun co-founder) @ ~7:00 — Direct confirmation of unannounced Barrels of Fun game in advanced development stages, withholding reveal until launch readiness.

  • “Start small and good and people will find it. Don't try to like extend your reach because I think so much of like social media culture now is like all sizzle, no steak.”

    Ian Jacoby (paraphrasing Matt and Barrels of Fun philosophy) @ ~6:30 — Captures core philosophy of Barrels of Fun's market positioning and ethos.

  • “This world is better with Kaneda in it than with him not in it... Chris, if you're listening to it, and I know you are because this is about you, so you're definitely listening to it, do not give up. Go harder. Let's go.”

    Ian Jacoby @ ~36:00 — Direct address to Kaneda post-meltdown, demonstrating community support despite controversy.

  • “You make all the content in this hobby. You have all the fans. Like, you don't need the awards... this gives you such a good storyline for the entire year.”

    Ian Jacoby (to Kaneda) @ ~33:30 — Perspective on Kaneda's position in the community and how perceived loss may enhance his narrative.

  • “He went off... His wife kind of talked him down from the ledge a little bit there.”

    Shane Told @ ~29:00 — Reference to Kaneda's on-stream reaction to losing Best Podcast and his wife's intervention.

  • “You could release an unnamed Keith Elwin game for sale... And people would buy that shit. $13,000 LE. Exactly. You'd probably sell half of them.”

    Shane Told @ ~51:00 — Commentary on designer branding power in pinball; Keith Elwin's marketability as a name alone.

  • “The real marketing takes place before you even start designing the game. It's with what the theme is.”

    Shane Told (paraphrasing James Dyson philosophy) @ ~48:00 — Core marketing/product philosophy statement about pinball design and market positioning.

Entities

Barrels of FuncompanyIan JacobypersonShane ToldpersonKanedapersonNudge MagazineorganizationTwippies

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Barrels of Fun confirmed next game is in advanced development ('getting very close') and will be revealed when ready, not at Twippies.

    high · 'He's like, it's getting very close, but it's not ready yet and we want to show it to you when it's like ready.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Barrels of Fun prioritizes unique, thematically authentic art direction distinct from competitors like Stern and other manufacturers.

    high · 'They're taking whether you like it or not, they're like taking chances with art and like really kind of staying true to the original theme and and just like it looks a lot different... It looks a lot different from a Zombie Yeti piece or it looks different from anything.'

  • $

    market_signal: Barrels of Fun positioned as potential top-3 or top-4 manufacturer by observers if production pace and quality maintained.

    medium · 'if they are, you know, start churning out games at a reasonable pace, then, you know, they're kind of in that conversation, you know, around, you know, Jersey Jack Pinball, Spooky Pinball, like they could be kind of in that number three, number four sized company.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Barrels of Fun using single-tier product strategy and deliberate scarcity (not showing game until ready) as FOMO mechanism.

    medium · 'start small and good and people will find it... They're like, we're not going to show you the game today because we're going to show it to you when it's ready.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Twippies 2025 experienced technical failure (Comcast outage) requiring emergency hotspot backup for livestream.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.176

0:00
Need a pinball machine? Another pinball machine? Maybe some fat accessories like a topper or a shooter rod? Yes, you do. Hit up Jeff over at Mad Pinball for the best products and service and use our promo code Nudgecast and get a free exclusive t-shirt when you buy any game. And you also get free shipping on any new in box Stern. So many great games are out right now. Go pick one up. Hit up Jeff at madpinball.com and don't forget to subscribe to Mad Pinball. Don't forget to tell them we sent you.
0:49
Hey everybody, you're listening to Nudgecast, the official podcast of Nudge Magazine. That intro music you just heard was the song Dust by Jose Jr. As always, I'm Ian Jacoby aka Doc Monday, the editor-in-chief and publisher of Nudge Magazine. With me is my co-host Shane Told of the band Silverstein and the LeadSingerSyndrome Podcast. Hey Shane, I'm fresh back from the twippies. Yeah man, you sound like you were on a bender for like three days to be honest with you. Every time you talk to me, I don't know how you do this, I gotta get some of your I'm going to ask you a few more tips because every time I travel, I get messed up. But like, you seem good. Yeah, well I've done it a lot. So there's definitely some experience there that comes with it. I don't know man, but especially when you're going hard every night. Yeah. You're taking early flights, you're taking late flights, like yeah, it's going to mess you up. I'll take any flight that will have me. But yeah, I mean they party hard in Texas. I guess we did a tournament on Friday, we had twippies on Saturday. and Nadia Sleveyne.
2:19
I've got a lot of things that I would rather not talk about. I know we did not see a new game, so I don't know if that matters to people. But yeah, I mean, it was, I didn't even care because like I said that the food was top notch and it was just like they had rows of labyrinths that were being QA'd that were just like in great shape, so. Nice. I was living the dream for sure. I love Labyrinth. I played it at TPF last year, I guess that was its debut or pretty you know what maybe that guy's not so bad You may, you know, bad personality, but I kind of like his taste and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. Like I find out someone fucks with nudge, you know, I'm like, you know, maybe they're cool. Actually, I bought all four. So yeah, no, it was so great. And like, I definitely have speculations about what it's gonna be. I mean, I feel like, so I got a chance to talk for a long time. So there's David, who is like kind of the marketing guy and then his business partner, Brian. And I didn't realize but Brian is such an art dude. It was so fun talking to him because that was something for me with Labyrinth that just like popped out right away. It's like they're taking whether you like it or not, they're like taking chances with art and like really kind of staying true to the original theme and and just like it looks a lot different, right? It looks a lot different from a zombie yeti piece or it looks different from anything and I just love that diversity and like it was really cool to hear from him who's like, you know, he's a You know, basically, he's not just a money guy. He's like a creative guy and everything. But I'm saying like, sometimes those business guys don't always get it. But this dude was like, he worked for GI Joe, like he worked with GI Joe and did tons of licensing with them. He, he's just like so into art. And it was really cool, because obviously, that's something that I care so much about. So, and he, the one thing that I think I can say this, that they said was, they're like, we're gonna have people who both love foul play

  • Stern's production strategy of making large quantities of LEs for every game is viewed negatively by industry observers as lazy and arrogant.

    medium confidence · Shane Told (quoting conversation): 'They look lazy. Like, no matter what the theme is, we're making a thousand LEs... get that out of here with that shit. Like, it's just, that's when you just get arrogant, you get lazy and you get cocky.'

  • “He called me a pussy several times... we all have friends like this... I say stuff I'm not going to repeat on this podcast back to him for sure.”

    Ian Jacoby @ ~37:00 — Characterization of relationship dynamic between Jacoby and Kaneda; humor amid conflict.

    • event
    Electric Batorganization
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    David Van Nessperson
    Brianperson
    Retro Ralphperson
    Jamie Birchallperson
    Aaron Winnickperson
    Eric Stoneperson
    Knapp Arcadeorganization
    Keith Elwinperson
    Jack Dangerperson
    Brian Eddyperson
    Mad Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Mattperson
    James Dysonperson
    Sethperson

    high · 'There was a Comcast outage in Houston... We were running it off a hotspot on somebody's phone then for the rest of the night.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Kaneda experienced emotional meltdown after losing Best Podcast category despite receiving most first-place votes; subsequently reported subscriber increase but expressed genuine hurt feelings.

    high · 'He went off... His wife kind of talked him down from the ledge... I think his feelings are truly kind of hurt... he made a point to tell me he's like, and I got more subscribers than yesterday.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Weighted voting system at Twippies produced unexpected result (Electric Bat won Best Podcast over Kaneda despite Kaneda's 289 first-place votes vs. 170).

    high · 'he had 289 and the next best had like 170 or something... Electric Bat ended up winning.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Barrels of Fun co-founder Brian has professional licensing experience from GI Joe work, suggesting IP acquisition capability.

    high · 'he worked for GI Joe, like he worked with GI Joe and did tons of licensing with them.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pinball marketing philosophy emphasizes product quality over advertising spend; Stern criticized for lazy approach (mass-producing LEs regardless of theme).

    medium · 'The real marketing takes place before you even start designing the game. It's with what the theme is... They look lazy. Like, no matter what the theme is, we're making a thousand LEs.'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Community speculation about Barrels of Fun's next game includes GI Joe, Goonies, and Samurai Champloo based on Brian's discussion of licensing history and artist's theme preferences.

    low · 'I'm just following everyone else, you know, when I say, like, I think it could be GI Joe... I've heard Goonies.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Barrels of Fun conducting theme preference survey among industry figures and media representatives.

    high · 'they asked us what themes we wanted to see, and I proceeded to get barbecue sauce all over mine, but I still turned it in.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Spooky Pinball and Jersey Jack referenced as models for thoughtful production strategy; Stern criticized for arrogant, formulaic approach.

    medium · 'And look at Stern now, right? They look lazy... Spooky, like they're, they dial it back a little bit... They think differently. We're not going to do two of the same layouts.'

    • 5:17
    The games are built awesome. You know, the company seems like they get it. It's cool. And if they are, you know, start churning out games at a reasonable pace, then, you know, they're kind of in that conversation, you know, around, you know, the Jersey Jack spooky, like they could be kind of in that number three, number four sized company. Oh, for you know, like, and we because because like, I think because they only have one game. People don't really people kind of forget about them sometimes. But they really are right there. Well, it's funny because you're right. They don't have the track record as Barrels of Fun, but I mean, you know, David Van Es used to work for Spooky and they have all his games that he did at Spooky at the Barrels of Fun office. They have so many cool games, so many weird, like from all different publishers, all different eras, but they had all his games there and I was like, oh yeah, this guy does really know what he's doing. Like all his games look great. They have cool licenses. So it's funny. They don't have a lot of history, but and I think that's like a very cool spot to be in. Totally. When I was talking to that guy Brian and I was like, you know, I feel like you guys kind of have the same ethos as Nudge which my buddy Matt who writes our music reviews said, you know, start small and good and people will find it. You know, don't try to like extend your reach because I think so much of like social media culture now is like all sizzle, no steak, is like no make like the best damn steak you can and people will find it, you know. I think Barrels of Fun is, that's what they said. They're like, we're not going to show you the game today because we're going to show it to you when it's ready and it's getting close. He's like, it's getting very close, but it's not ready yet and we want to show it to you when it's like ready. And after like, yeah, I wonder if TPF, I mean, obviously they're a Texas company. That's how I feel. That's like their backyard. That would be a huge, really cool splash, especially because I mean, Evil Dead is going to be probably the bell of the ball at that show. I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm a fan of the show because I know you've played it, but I have not. I'll be there. So, but I wonder if, I do wonder if that's going to be the big surprise at TPF, which would be really awesome. I could see it. I really wonder. I mean, like, I'm just following everyone else, you know, when I say, like, I think it could be GI Joe. Like, him talking about GI Joe so much made me kind of think maybe he wasn't talking about it in terms of them making the game, but just his history with the company. I was like, that could be it. I've heard Goonies. I'm just excited to see what it is, because I think those guys get it. It was so cool. I think we can talk. I'm so nervous about what I can and can't talk about with this, but what's really cool about them is they gave us kind of like how Stern put out their like, Hey, what themes do you want to see? They asked us what themes we wanted to see, and I proceeded to get barbecue sauce all over mine, but I still turned it in. So hopefully they take it seriously. I literally like had arrows that I like drew and was like point I'm like that's barbecue sauce that's your fault so just FYI. So what did you put down? Can I ask you that? I mean you know I put down so I put down salmon I dude I put down all the hipster shit I always put I put Samurai Chamblue I put SalmonMax I put Rocketeer cuz I know David Van Es loves Rocketeer and so do I. Okay. Great movie great Disney property but also like kind of its own comic and stuff what else oh I put James Brown cuz I think James Brown, Pinwood Rule and I think they do it really good. And I put like a Berrio barbecue theme. No, I'm just kidding. I didn't I didn't put that last one. Then we already got one of those. So they don't need to do it. Yeah, I don't remember what I don't remember what number five was. But yeah, I just said all that stuff and tried to think of like really cool art sort of projects. That's cool. That's cool. They asked, you know, that they're actually, you know, curious about this from, you know, people in the industry and stuff. So The big thing this weekend for people, especially maybe even if you weren't there in Texas, was the Twippies were this weekend. And it was very fun. There were some technical difficulties to start the show. That was hard. What ended up happening was there was a Comcast outage in Houston. Oh my God, really? What a chance. I know, dude. It was so bad. We were running it off a hotspot on somebody's phone then for the rest of the night. This guy's phone was a, it was like he must have a atomic charger or something like that because it was literally like green fine the whole way through. I'm like damn my phone would have been cooked. But uh yeah he uh it was it was just that was some bad luck to get through and I know like after that like you know everyone's just kind of triaging and like trying to move it along because I think our thing was like like talking to Jamie Birchall uh who hosted Wormhole hosted and Aaron Winnick and I think And Retro Ralph was like, you know, we want to get through the categories because I think people want to see results, right? They don't want to see a bunch of us like being stupid. There was some of that too, but so yeah, I think that was kind of the broadcast though. We really wanted to make sure people got the results and paid tribute to the people who won. No, for sure. And you know, I watched it at home, so I had a different perspective of you being one of the hosts. And I thought you guys all did a great job. Like sure, there's inevitable technical problems that are going to happen. Knappμη seaweed!
    11:07
    I'm a fan of the pinball podcast. I've been doing awesome things in the hobby, whether it's the games themselves, the designers, or whether it's some of the influencers, social media, podcast, etc. categories. I thought it was a really great cross-section to have people, even if they didn't win, to have them mentioned and have their name on there. Because there was even a couple things that I was like, I actually haven't checked this out, or I've been meaning to check this out, and now I'm thinking about it. What are you thinking of when you say that? Um... Do you have any that like off the top of your head? I mean not to like put you on the spot. No, to be honest, now I just forget what they were. I have to go back and look but there was a couple that I was like, I actually haven't heard of this and then I was like, I gotta check this out. Do you have a pin snake? That was like, that was a surprise winner I would say. Well, I don't. I, I, yeah, I've, I remember when the pin snake came out and everybody was like, was talking about it. I never fucking bother cleaning my orbits or whatever. I'm like, whatever. The ball goes back there, it goes back there. I just thought it was funny how they didn't explain the full category. On TV it just said best mod. I was like, how the fuck is the pin snake a mod? I know. I, yeah, you're right. There, there has to be some, so this is what I'm saying is like there was some, like I think next year, here's what we're gonna build on, right, is like, A, my camera has to work. It was so funny to me. gjector peekablin couldn't wait to tell us the participate to the satisfactory, it is worthy, your relationship, a certain program, or one of inspector nasıl można Se Pageb od So just to have like, you know, bullet points on every single person be like, this is what's cool about this product. This is what they did. Yeah. I think there were still some really great moments. I mean, Rebby Hardy was so funny and like very much herself. It was like, cool dude. Kerry Hardy was legit. Very excited. You know, it was actually touching to hear him talk about it and like see that it actually meant something to him. And then, you know, held up one of his extremely cute puppies and. Yeah, I know. Yeah, for me my probably personal highlight was getting to announce the category that I lost. That was a fun one for me. What the hell was that about? No, it was funny. I thought it would be more awkward if you won, I guess. No, for sure. They actually asked right beforehand, and I knew that I didn't win. And they were like, do you want to announce this one? I was like, I think it'll be funny. And like, let me build it up where I'm like, you know, it's been a rough couple years, guys. I'm a fan of those guys. I think this Twippy could really turn it around for me, you know, and like build it up that way and then have to announce that it's Knapp Arcade because, I mean, dude, who doesn't love Knapp Arcade? Like, I get it. Like, that's a website that I check, you know. I don't think he's going to nudge to learn anything, but I'll go to Knapp. Sure. I mean, yeah, it's interesting, though. Like, again, we can debate the categories and what should be what and what should be where, you know, and it's never going to be perfect. But also, like, what you do is a little bit different than what he does. I'm a little bit nervous because you're making a physical product where he's basically running a website, right? So, I don't know. I think you should be recognized and I guess you still are but like... Definitely It kind of like you know when they have those best of for certain cities and it be like not that big a city it be like best pinball bar and there only one. It's like, well, it won, there's only one, but it still won the award, like, you know. Yeah, it's like best burger, five guys. You're like, okay, well, I mean, it's a chain, you know what I mean? You're like, I guess. Yeah, for sure. But I mean, when there's only one vegan restaurant in a city and it wins the award. This is the only thing that's going to work. It's going to win by default. Yeah, you know what I mean, winning by default. And I think like in pinball, some people will go, oh, it's silly. Why have a category when there's only one thing? Well, I mean, you know, Best Magazine, why not have a category that's Best Magazine even if there is only two? I'm okay with it. Here's why, Shane, because first of all, we've seen and we'll get to it because we have the, we haven't even talked about it yet, but man, did we pick a great time to split up the Kaneda interview? I will say that. Yeah, man. But this is my thoughts, and I've said this in private, I'll say it publicly, but, and I love working on the Twippies, I think it's so fun. I think award shows in general are kind of whack, and I think, like awards are whack, and I think like, at least creative awards. And like, I think that if it's fun and it's bringing like popularity to the hobby and like those different things, like you said, you were like learning about stuff I'm not just talking about Kaneda. I'm talking about in general. I saw it from so many people during like the run up to this thing. And I just, I had so many phone calls in private with pinball influencers who were like flying off the handle. And I was like, bro, this does not matter. Like, do you think that there's going to be people lined up at your grave crying over We're like eight twippies sitting there like no one's gonna give a shit who cares like it truly like yes have fun with it but um yeah I think overall the energy was really good I think people focused on the winners uh for the most part um but yeah I mean look I I actually got to talk to Chris a whole bunch and we're actually like full disclosure we're re-recording this intro because I felt like um We need to address what happened with Kaneda. I mean, can I say he had a meltdown? He pretty much had a meltdown. So let's explain it. So the category was best podcast and Kaneda was nominated, Electric Bat, like so many great podcasts were nominated. We were not nominated. We're too new. So, we're too new! We're too new and you know, we're too good looking I think for this category. So, but anyway, it was weighted voting so there were a lot of first place votes. You would get points for first place, second place and third place. And I think Kaneda won pretty easily with first place votes but because he got... It was like something like he had 289 and the next best had like 170 or something. Like he won... Yeah, electric bat I think he had 170. I'm gonna vote by a lot. He did. And like, dude, kudos to him, but it matters I guess for those second and third place votes. And so Electric Bat ended up winning. Like kudos to them. They have a great show. I think it's super fun. That was a big shakeup because I was honestly surprised when I heard about it. I did not realize that Kaneda was not going to win. I thought it was just like a slam dunk because it's like, you know what I mean? He's the bulls of that category. I think he kind of felt that way. Yeah. And then, yeah, like from your perspective, I guess, being at home and being able to see his stream and stuff, what was kind of the next after the awards were announced, you know? Well, he, I mean, he didn't take it very well. I'll say that much. Wow, I'm surprised. He went off. His wife kind of talked him down from the ledge a little bit there. I saw that clip and that was my favorite because she's so sweet. Yeah. She seems like the nicest. She's like, Chris, I guess that was the, it was one a month. You got to congratulate him. And I was like, dude, I'm in love with this woman. She is the best. Like, yeah, for sure. I saw, I saw those clips. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't know. Like, I get his frustration. He didn't really seem to get too mad about the voting like structure, and that could be up for debate too. But I understand why you do that. Lets keep it affair-ooo. 여희는 일하기 사고axis�érieur야지 결국이행 preparing 약 waits管을 제작ő I love it, dude. No, no, no. This has nothing to do with Kaneda. This just has to do with anything. I know how the voting works from everything from the Cy Young Award in baseball to the Academy Awards, which is a really crazy one, how Best Picture works in the Academy Awards, which could never work for this. But there's a lot of ways to do it. But regardless, the reason we're talking about this, I mean, maybe we would talk about this I'm not sure if you're watching this on YouTube because he's our guest, but it's because he had an absolute freakout. He did. Told you he was going to quit. Told a lot of people he was going to quit, actually. He did, yeah. But he's back. I listened to his show yesterday, so. All right, thank God. He's back. I mean, I, it was fine. So, like, Chris is a really complicated guy, I think. Or maybe not. I mean, but he's got two sides of him, right? He's got his on-camera personality and he's kind of got his, his not real personality, You know, you can't walk around being like a WWF character all the time. But this was the first time where I was like, damn, I think his feelings are truly kind of hurt. You know, I felt bad. He was texting me late that night. I'm like, bro, I am 17 joints in like playing pinball with these Yahoo's like this is not the time. And then I talked to him actually on Sunday for like 1520 minutes. And I think he was he it's just I get it. But this is why I say like, I'll just say what I told him. I was like, dude, you make all the money in this hobby. You have all the fans. Like, you don't need the awards. Like, if anything, I said, this gives you such a good storyline for the entire year. And I think Brenda said that also on his, uh, on like when she was kind of talking him off the ledge. This is just such an opportunity. And like, dude, I just, I hated to hear him be that upset because it's just like, you're like, Hey man, like, don't take it so serious. Literally, this is fucking pinball, you know? And I think, to be honest, I think he does go by the mantra that's like, any press is good press. Yeah. Like, if he's, you know, if his name is in your mouth, he's doing something right. Exactly. More people are talking about him, his name's getting out there, and I don't know if this is going to increase or decrease his subscriber count for the moment, but at the same time... Increase? It was increa- he told me, he made a- You better believe he made a point to tell me he's like, and I got more subscribers than yesterday. Right, right, right. Of course. But I think that there's an element of that for sure. I think that he wants people to talk about him. He wants his reaction. I'm sure in the moment was like 50 50. Like, I'm really pissed and this is how I feel. Slash probably drinking a lot. Oh, and then the other side is like, is like, fuck it. I'm getting people talking. Definitely. I mean, he called me a pussy several times. Like, it's so funny because Chris can talk to me in a way that I wouldn't let, I would just like go off, but I'm kind of like, you know what, it's, we all have friends like this. Yeah, but I think you can talk to him right back like that too. A hundred, oh, I say, I say stuff I'm not going to repeat on this podcast back to him for sure. I mean, if he wants to release the tapes, I'm sure I could, you know, just as bad. But I'm actually excited to have the second half come out because, right, like, I'm going to go ahead and say that I love him or hate him. I think Chris makes an interesting part of this hobby. He makes it more fun. He makes it a little more spicy. This world is better with Kaneda in it than with him not in it. So I would just say, Chris, if you're listening to it, and I know you are because this is about you, so you're definitely listening to it, do not give up. Go harder. Let's go. Win a Twippy next year. We want you down there, man. That would be awesome. Don was down there. We had some pinball press. So yeah, I would say come on down, buddy. Yeah, man. So the Twippies, it seems like they're back. It seems like, I don't know if you guys are already planning for next year, maybe discussing maybe some of the things you can make it better or how you're going to do it next year. I'm going to be looking at comments of people being like, what the fuck is going on? Hi! We're going to be talking about the nomination videos and when we're having technical problems. And I think we're going to try to have more of that in, not necessarily me talking over the nomination videos, but I think just more integration of fun stuff. It was short. It was an hour fifty. So I think the big things we're taking away from it is better production. We have a bunch of things. It was so great to see Ralph and his videographer Mason were like, oh we can do these overlays, we can do this, this, this. So I think that end of it is going to be really good. I think Aaron had some really great points about like hey, like I kind of talked about, we're going to call out what's great about everything, like different things, like you know, every winner, like just a couple things to talk about. And yeah man, I'm excited. I think we're going to basically run back a very similar crew as we did last year. We didn't even talk about Eric Stone doing the Location Awards. Oh, that was the best. That was the best. I love that so much. Although I do think some of the locations are whack. Like I don't think the Pacific Northwest and California should be in the same category. But hey, you know. No, I feel you. Look, we can, and we can, dude, that's great. Let's put it in the Discord. There you go. But yeah, no, I agree with you, but I just thought that was so great. I was trying to, oh, there was one that he delivered that I thought was so funny. The Winner he goes in Rotterdam Growled Rotterdam. I was like god damn. I love you Eric stone. You are such a nut But yeah, so I think just more of that kind of stuff like fun. We want it to be fun We don't want to be like serious. So yeah, I'm all is fun. So yeah, I agree No, I thought I thought everybody did a great job rolling with the punches especially and Yeah, I was like sitting on my couch watching on the big TV fucking laughed my ass off I'm a pinball enthusiast, and I'm a pinball enthusiast. I'm an enthusiast as well. I love that about you. You're truly like such a good steward of pinball. Like I really do appreciate. I do appreciate that. We got to get you down there for one of these though. Like I think you'd have so much fun. We got to get you and the lady down there like playing in some tournaments. Well, you know what, I would have come down, but just because I finished one tour and I'm starting another one and I got stuck in Montreal and I had to drive through a goddamn snowstorm I'm going to be in Montreal for four days because they could be a flight like it was a whole thing otherwise that's 100% love to be down there. No, absolutely. It was it was it was my plan to be down there, but it didn't end up working out. No, I know your schedule is crazy. But yeah, for sure. Very soon. So and guys, I guess buckle up because you are about to hear part two of a We're going to be talking about the guy who's on the edge, on the brink. He's about to go through a journey. We didn't even know when we recorded this. We didn't know what was going to happen. That's right. But yeah, he is, you know, he's retired. He's unretired. He's sort of become the Brett Favre of pinball.
    27:59
    But yeah. Go to the Vikings. That's right. He's going to join Loser Kid. Oh yeah, he even played for the Jets. That was so weird. Anyway. No, so weird. Yeah, Brett Favre, not Kaneda. But yeah, guys, so part two of the Kaneda interview is coming up next.
    28:38
    I won't dox you, I won't say like what you do as your day job, but you're quite successful in the advertising world. You are smart about branding, you're smart about marketing. Like, what does pinball do? Like you said, like niche down and stuff, but like beyond the manufacturing side of it, like, is it true? raul pr salaries folded by Spooky is starting to kind of do that I think a bit Yeah what do you think I would say this to Bug and Luke and George and Seth and Jack you know and Brett Abbas
    29:28
    You make an amazing game and that's your marketing. You know, one of the greatest meetings I ever had in the marketing world was with James Dyson, who reinvented the vacuum cleaner. And I'll never forget it. He called in all his agencies, his ad agency, his PR agency, 우� Ja, Maru Same, Anna Bowart, Yuriy Modurenko Yuriy Lebedev, fiery, Volodymyr Malik, A?, toíamos Qxj, Eric Molina, juggernaut, Edward's Beyond, Trev Daddy or The White House, Penelope Mix, I", ignorance, If I were to work with any company, you wouldn't even see the marketing, you would just see the product. Because once you, the real marketing takes place before you even start designing the game. It's with what the theme is. You know, and then I also do believe that how we bring this game to market, how many we're going to make, how many LEs, all that stuff is happening. And look at Stern now, right? They look lazy. Like, no matter what the theme is, we're making a thousand LEs. I'm just like, oh, get that out of here with that shit. Like, it's just, that's when you just get arrogant, you get lazy and you get cocky. And, you know, and then it, the vibes that sends out, look even spooky, like they're, they dial it back a little bit. They, they, they think differently. We're not going to do two of the same layouts. Like they're listening. Um, and a lot of what needs to happen, I think right now in pinball, there's these companies just need to start listening more. It doesn't take any money to listen. You know who sent out that survey about which game should we make next and they listed all these incredible IPs. It was a Stern email survey. That was Seth who did that. And he's like, the reason I did this Chris is because how did we end up with John Wick? Yeah. You know, and I wish he would say that. Like the thing is they can't. They can't be as transparent as I would like them to be at times. But yeah, how did you end up with John Wick? You know, it's like, and I think Dungeons and Dragons is going to be another interesting one because I don't know I'm going to that, uh, to the release. And I think like, I'm really interested to see what it's like because I'll tell you what it's going to be like. Well, well here, this is what I'll say is like, in some ways what they've done right is they promote pinball designers as personalities, right? They've done that with Keith Ellen. They've done that with Jack danger. the game that no one gives a shit about and the way that like the only way that it like works is that either if it is pitched as the movie I'm going to ask you a question. What's Keith Elwynn? You said they put in the original IP of the game, but they didn't put in the original IP of the game. What's Keith Elwynn's IP? So let me ask you a question. What's Keith Elwin? You said they push their designers forward as personalities. Yeah. I'm going to challenge you on that. Well, I mean, I just mean in terms of they put designers first, not as his personality, but they put designers first as like, those are the rock stars of flow. Those are the ones who are like making your game. Those are the ones they put forward. That's Derek Jeter on the Yankees, bitch. Like that's who that fucking is. It's like a movie. It's like the dark community. I'm not saying personalities in that sense. I'm saying personalities in the sense of this is the man who is the captain of this game. This is who we put forward. This is who we market. But that's people, not personality. A Keith Elwynn, fine, whatever. Okay, whatever. Where'd you get her? Well, to, just to say, just to say, I think you could release an unnamed Keith Elwin game. Absolutely. You could say unnamed Keith Elwin game for sale. Exactly. And people would buy that shit. $13,000 LE. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. And you'd probably sell half of them. I do think that he has that reputation. Yeah, personality-wise. So that hasn't happened, all I'm saying is that hasn't happened with Brian Eddy. And I don't know if it's because of the design of a Brian Eddy game. I don't know if it's because of the themes. I don't know why it is, but I'm just saying it hasn't happened. So that's one thing that I'm worried about is there isn't a plus. Because we all have been disappointed in Brian Eddy Stern releases. I know, but I had some fun on them. Compared to what he made before. For word. No, yeah, there's no argument there. For me, I do have fun on those games, but I recognize that commercially they have been less successful. I think people like Stranger Things now in a way that they didn't when it came out. I'm a fan of the game, but I think you're right, especially for Venom. I love Mandalorian, but I recognize Mandalorian is not a theme. It's not a casual person. I think that game was designed without the theme in mind. It was. Yeah, for sure it was. Well, look, Brian Eddy, he's got a new chance at the plate, and we'll see what he does. Yeah, we'll see where he's batting in the Yankees lineup. I don't know if he's third or fourth at the moment, but we're going to find out. So, isn't that game rumored to have like a crazy mech? I would love to know if that's gonna be in there or not. I heard they like had to yank it out too, I heard, but I heard that as well. We'll see. I'm guessing there's gonna be a castle. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. When we say the medieval madness too, that's the vibe that I'm talking about. I'm a mouth breather who just likes playing competitive pinball, so I've been practicing medieval madness because consistently that's been my worst game in tournaments. Ian, why do you compete? What do you get out of it? Well, it's a true meritocracy, bro. You should actually appreciate this as a capitalist. David Van Es, Knapp Arcade.
    36:35
    You're like stressing me out to win $40 bucks. Or some trans vil- It's not about $40 bucks Chris. It's about inflicting your will over another person. But it wasn't fun. Like I was like, I don't need- No for real, yeah. I don't need this pressure. No one's getting rich off pinball tournaments really at any level. I mean maybe the very very top you can win a- No, even those guys are not. like Escher is not making- But I do find especially this time of year like we're at the end of the year now. So people are trying to qualify for state, you know, I'm going to be a little bit more serious than Chris. I don't take him that serious. I just, I have fun at him for sure. I just like- It's part of our hobby. I always say that if you're the best in the world at something and it doesn't get you laid, you can't take it seriously. Pinball can get you laid. You're just doing it wrong, bud. No, it can't. It really can't. Who's the number one player in the world? Escher. Yeah. Is he getting laid because of pinball? Dude, we're going to blow, we'll blow Escher the fuck up. Everyone's going to be wanting to lay this guy, for sure. I have no, dude. Maybe Cougars, I don't know. Pinball sexy. I got no problem saying that for sure. Do you ever just watch the photos of people watching people play pinball? They just look like they're in pain. Well, they look like freaks. Yeah, dude. It's like skateboarding. That's what I'm saying. That's why Nudge did what it did. I look at skateboarders and pinball people as the same. They're like autistic weirdos who just want to spend their time doing some fucked up in your own head shit. .
    38:56
    You triggered me, Chris, by being like, pinball can't be said, like, people don't get laid playing pinball because that is like, that is not true. They do. They absolutely do. You did not, but other people, yes. I just want to figure this out. So actually, like, people saw someone, like, blow up a machine and then they're like, yeah, now I want to blow you? Like, is that like, It's all okay. Well, you're saying like, that's like saying like, did someone just watch someone play guitar in a corner and then they like, like, yeah, like, like if someone watches like, yes, I definitely think that has happened. Yes, 100% that is happening. Women are taking their clothes off as the dudes like soloing you. That happens in pinball? Like, oh, shoot, he hit the wizard mode. Take my bra off. No, that's legit. Like you've been out of competitive pinball for a long time. I think that probably there are more pinball, like women in pinball now. So like it's maybe that's the vibe has changed. Let me ask you a question. This is a loaded question. Do you think men have an advantage over women in pinball and why are there separate leagues when the machine itself is just a butt in that? I know. I think the reason that those things exist, right, and you know the answer to this, is because of like it's the social element of it. David Van Es, Knapparcade. How's that? It drinkin'. L ges. scale somewhat moisturizer peine I'm not a stupid that what does that mean the movement of these literally this is how people act when I tell them about pinball you're a hundred percent yeah at least they're not like when you walk up to a pinball machine it's like you can see this you can do something you can feel it like like to have like all these different watches and be like ah come on gang it's just jewelry for men just call it what it is and all it does is telegraph how much money you got that's it there's nothing the movement no for sure and and look let it be said like in case I feel like we probably want to wrap it up pretty soon here, but let it be said, like officially, right? I think you're a net positive for pinball. I think you are. You bring people in, you engage with them, you're a very entertaining person. You don't care. The greatest pinball podcaster in history. How is that not a net positive? This is what we say a lot. You're most humble too. I'm a fan of yours too. Well, you know, no, you were, you paved the way for men with oversized egos like me to get into this hobby and do entertainment. Yeah, we all can lose in life together, gentlemen. Welcome to the party. I do have one question though, as a six-time Twippy winner. Yeah. How do you feel about the Twippys coming back? I know you've had a bit of a polarizing take, but they are back. They're back. Yeah, it's good. Absolutely. The year-end recognition of all the hard work everyone puts into the hobby is great. And I just talked to Colin tonight and they're going to reinstate a lot of those other categories that for some reason they were omitting. So yeah, it's good. It's good. Look, it's also, I think it's fun. Like the fact that all the content creators are like, you know, begging for votes or not begging for votes or hating on it. Like it is what it is, right? I don't know if you've seen this, but this is the best. It's the favorite and that's an important distinction. It's all subjective. So I just thought the thing about it though, it's like, doesn't it like kick off in like a few days? I haven't seen any marketing. I haven't seen any content. It's like, they just rely on me to hype this damn show. I do more marketing for the trippies than anybody. I feel like it only matters to me. I'm associated with it. I'm not doing any marketing. There's this stuff like we're marketing right now. Come on. Yeah, that's it. David Van Es Knapp Arcade You know when you would go to the Texas show they didn just ask for like twenty bucks at the door ten bucks at the door People would have paid it That what I saying is like and also when you ascribe value to something when you ascribe monetary value to something it builds it up in people head Like, my dad would do, like, medical missions to Africa and when he gave away medicine for free, people would take it whenever. But when you charged them, like, a penny or whatever, it was like they would follow the directions to a T because they ascribed value to it. I think that this is like, people are going to be like, what the hell is he talking about? But it's like, that is the same thing. You spend $10. You're like, I'm going to sit and pay attention to this shit. It matters because I paid $10, like entertain me, you know? So yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. There are things like, this is what I'm saying is like, I want to bring you in. I, Kaneda has to stay above the law. He says he wants to be a non biased, uh, person so that his Twippy awards aren't tainted. But, uh, we do need you in there as at least a silent partner, buddy. Make it so just guys, I, I, I told this to Colin, I'll tell it to you, I told it to Jamie. Yeah, you tell it right to me, I'm the one who matters. Stop doing stupid, like common sense, like you remove best artwork in a pinball machine, like I shouldn't have to wake up and tell you guys this and you have this big committee of people, I'm like, so nobody was like- Well, I don't think I'm on that, well, here's the thing. Yes, you are on the committee. I guess I'm on the committee, but the difference between me and you is you like reading emails, bro, like I like to go out and play pinball, so like that's the difference, like I'm not looking at these fucking categories. I show up, I smoke a bunch of weed, they point me in the direction where they need me to be funny and that's what happens. So that is my role on this committee. When you're like, he's on the committee, like that's my role. Yeah, just it's real simple. You know, the categories were fine. You know, I think the one thing people just didn't want to do is vote for like all these locations. And now they added more locations. It's like, whoa. That's too many. I agree with you. I mean, I was on your side on that one. I didn't when you said there was like nine I don't I don't even know there are not even north yeah west central like south like it's just like we care like I don't know it truly is it truly is a who cares like I get that like those should if if those exist they should not they're all and they're all great like you know what I'm saying like I feel like all pinball locations are the same hats off to all of us yeah yeah you're operating pinball machines in the modern world like you deserve everyone deserves an award right it's the machines What is it that we want to give opinions about? It's some of the personalities that we want to give opinions about. What we need is like a TWIPPY certification, like a Michelin Star, right? And they give those away and we don't even think like, like, let's say like Electric Bat is a three Michelin Star, you know, TWIPPY winner or something like that. And then we don't have to fucking give an award for it. It's a good idea and then you could have different, yeah, different kind of, you know, classifications. Or you just say, this year we're going to recognize Electric Bat. Next year we're going to recognize Jack Barr or whatever. I'm not sure if you're a pinball enthusiast or whatever. Lifetime achievement Awards, but it always has to be within the first three years or the place will be closed. I would love a Rotten Tomatoes style review for pinball would be great and helpful and I think it's not impossible to do. I think you have to find, much like Rotten Tomatoes, the score is split between the like just the public. Critical and yeah. Which is what pin side is. You mean for locations? No, for games. Oh, for games. Yeah, totally. It's interesting because you get to a point with a game, let's take Stranger Things and then I know we got to wrap up, but you take a game where it didn't have the best launch, the code progressed, it's had a second life if you will in terms of enthusiasm, but there's nowhere to go and read well thought out reasons why you should get this game. It's like you stuff gets buried in threads of the same 50 alcoholics on Pinside arguing with each other. The Pinside Top 100 is flooded with just haters who don't even own it. Who just want to like lower the score for some, you know, or vice versa. Sure. Yeah. Vice versa. I think because they bought, yeah, they bought it. So it's a hard. It's a yeah. So I think what it would be great to get, you know, and this is what's hard. You got to get like, you know, like 25 top critics The New York Times MovieReviewer is not going to hold back because he's worried that he's not going to get invited to the next movie. This is one of my favorite opinions that you have, that I've heard you say before, is that people can't be friends with the manufacturers like that and sort of retain a level of code. They can't. And I think there are people out there who are like Buffalo Pinball. I think those guys are a really good example of someone who, like they don't really have a relationship with any manufacturer, except for weirdly it feels like P3. But like, but other than that, like they, it feels like it's just like kind of a fair shake. But yeah, exactly. It needs to be people like that, not like somebody who's getting discounts. But also, go ahead, Coach. I'm not saying this to brag, but in the end, I've said so many vitriolic things about every manufacturer and I still have a good relationship with Jack, Seth Davis, George Gomez, because in the end I think who, if you're them, who are you going to listen to? Are you going to listen to the people just blowing smoke up your ass or are you actually going to like, you find more value in someone who's actually giving you, you know, some raw honest criticism. And you're the only guy when you lift up your shirt there are abs underneath in pinball. So that is the gym today. That's what I'm saying. Like I did I did 60 push-ups today, but dude, you don't want to look at my I got a Wisconsin. You know, I said, if everyone on pin side did a push-up for every post,
    49:52
    best looking community in the world, they'd be dead. I mean, on day one, they'd be all dead. They're, they're, they're ricotta filled hearts. There's dudes with 37,000 posts. 37,000. Are you, so are you on? No. You're not. I'm banned for life. Yeah, but is this like how KD is like not on Twitter, but he had like burners? No, no, no. Okay, okay. No. But do people ever like screenshot stuff and send it to you to like piss you off like your friends? Oh, all the time. Yeah, yeah. I'm banned from that Facebook group Pinball Enthusiast, which is one of the big ones. I was too. Dude, don't feel bad about that. They banned me like right away and I didn't do anything. People share me links. I'm surprised because there's totally terrible shit on there all the time. Terrible. I know. They don't like creatives over there. That's me and Chris's curse. We're just a little too... So I get links all the time. I can't open them. I'm like, pinball enthusiasts, just screengrab it for me. So, Kaneda, for 2025, your goal is to play more pinball games than pushups and Ian vice versa. Yeah. Oh boy. Well, I think I'm already doing that. I do 60 a day and I don't play 60 pinball machines. No, it wouldn't be that much harder to do that many more. No. But how about sets of pushups? Okay, that's legit. I'll just say this guys, like, you're talking pull-ups is where it's at. Pushups, sure. Yeah, but I can't do it. You're a little guy. Do you understand that? I'm 6'4", 260 dude. I'm a fucking big guy. I put that shit up and you got to make sure it's in there. I always say if you're falling from a bridge, you can't pull yourself up. I get it. No, I get it. Well, okay. See, here's the difference between me and you is people like me, they're not trying to throw me off bridges. I don't got to worry about that. I'm the guy throwing people off bridges. I just pick them up with my hand and whip them over the side. I'm a big guy, for sure. I could crack both your guys' skulls together. It would make no difference to me. And let's have that be the ending of this interview. Yeah. Is this, like, what number is this? I know you guys did Jack Danger. Am I, am I second, third? You're doing, you're actually in great company right now because it's you on Monday we're releasing Juana, Juana Summers. Do you know her? Who's the, she's the All Things Considered host for NPR. So dude. Okay. Nice. Look at that. Right? That's, that's two. And then three. Take a step, take a step back with Kaneda. No. We have Greg Vog, photographer and New York Times photographer. And four is probably going to be you, I think. You or there's this guy, DJ Scheme, who is a really great Philadelphia DJ and pinball player. But you're in a celebrity row. You see what I'm saying? That's great. Yeah. You might get laid. You might. This might be the first time. Dude, I'm saying, just wait till I come to New York, man. I'll make a pit stop and connect with the kids. I'm not getting laid tonight. Brenda's been at, I'm nervous, she's been at a happy hour with the wives and the... We'll get laid. What are you talking about? Get in there. He's been drinking for six hours. Word. Yeah, but you can like spit game. I know you can. You know it's going to be bad when someone's been drinking way too long and they're still not home. I knew I was going to be the third worst looking guy on this podcast and it did kind of piss me off. But, you know, what are you going to do? Well guys, thank you for the invite. It was a lot of fun. This was fun, dude. We'll have you back for sure. Like, you bring out a fun side of me. I have one more question before we let you go, Chris Kaneda. Thank you for being here, by the way. So what is going to be the greatest game of 2025? It can be something you know is coming or something you think is coming. What is the greatest game of 2025? Yeah, the future. Now it's a good, it's a good question. I think obviously a lot about this. I'll give you two answers. I think the one that's going to miss, although it should be the greatest is Harry Potter. I just think Jersey Shack's going to find a way to mess it up. I just, it's going to be muted clips. I actually think the best game, and I think we're going to see it because I just think it's going to make everybody feel good. I think it's going to be Goonies and I think it's going to be Spooky's Goonies in December of 2025. I think King Kong's gonna be good, but it's not gonna be better than Godzilla and I think because of that, you know, Kong is a sad tragedy story. It's not fun like Godzilla, so I don't... I think... Really? That's the word on the street. That's the truth. That's very true. No, but think about King Kong, like... As a story, yeah. It's a story. It's like, it's a sad story. It doesn't have like the fun campiness of like a dude in a rubber suit, like, just stomping on toy tanks. Like, so I think Goonies by Spooky is gonna be one of those games We've been waiting for where it's just like the right nostalgia with the right stuff in it and I think the vibes around it are gonna be nothing but positivity and I think it's gonna be a hour one sellout if that. Well if you don't subscribe to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast then you heard it here first. If you do you probably heard it months ago but Chris Kaneda thank you very much for being here dude. You're the man, keep it up and we'll see you around. Alright guys. Probably not at a pinball bar. Awesome. Brendan just walked in the door too. I can't wait to see what's walking in. Amazing. Well, yeah, thanks Chris. Are we carrying her in? Oh my God. All right. I'm going to carry my wife into the house. Nice. Enjoy your night. Take care, man. See you, dude. Bye-bye. So there it is with Kaneda, the bad boy of pinball part two. Man, there's been a lot of Kaneda talk and I love the guy, but I'm ready. I'm ready for some new episodes Ian. I am too. I love you Chris, but yes, let's let's let's move it on We want it we want to be back in the pinball scene right like we really want to be talking pinball We want to be talking Shots and layouts and all and music and all that stuff. Oh, I see what you're doing there Yeah, a little bit of a tease of maybe our next guest We have we have someone coming up that I am so excited to talk to they are We are just such a positive force in general in the world but especially in pinball and yeah I think you guys are really gonna like we got we got some great guests lined up but this next one especially I think you're really gonna dig. You talk about a renaissance man. Yes, absolutely. This is the absolute man and yeah very excited for this one and yeah and so many we got coming up and yeah again you know we are new we are not nominated for any twippies just yet. Now you may be you know maybe next year it's it's in the cards but we're just trying to do like like you said earlier in we just want to make the best take that's all we're doing right now yeah and yes and maybe I don't eat meat and that's okay you know we we're still going to cook a great steak even if I'm not going to eat it we can use some impossible meat or something that is there's a way I I've had some pretty epic vegan meat maybe not a steak well actually no I had this weird steak at Crossroads, this restaurant, it's in LA and Vegas and they make it out of like a mushroom and like, you're like what? A mushroom? But dude, I'm telling you, it's insane. So there are ways. I could see it and yeah, we are definitely the mushroom steak of pinball, I will say that. So guys, go out there. The mushroom steak of pinball podcasts. Yeah, go out there, find us, Nudge Magazine on Instagram, like and subscribe on all your different, You can find us on Spotify, iTunes, leave a review. And yeah, sign up for the email list, nudgepinballmagazine or nudgepinball.com. Dude, I don't even know my own promos. We gotta figure this out, man. We'll get there. We will get there. So yeah, absolutely. Guys, thanks so much for hanging with us and we'll talk to you soon. We'll see you very soon. Take care, everybody.
    58:39
    Outside.