You're listening to Topcast, this old pinballs online radio. For more information, visit them anytime, www.marvin3m.com. Flash Topcast. The Views and Attitudes expressed on Topcast belong solely to the appearing guest and may differ significantly from the views and attitudes of the Topcast production staff. An appearance on Topcast does not imply endorsement by Topcast staff. Topcast Tonight on Topcast, I got an unbelievable interview with somebody that came from a communist country or Romania when he was 17 years old, came to the United States as an artist and ended up in the pinball industry as an unbelievable game designer and idea man. Somebody that designed the whole package for a game from the theme, the storyboard, the art package, the whole idea is he designed the whole package. I'd like to welcome Python, Python Anghelo, the Topcast that I'd Python, started working in Williams in the 1980s, worked on Comet, high speed, grand lizard, pinbott, big guns, cyclone, taxi, jokers, police force, bad caps, Bugs Bunny birthday ball, the machine bright a pinbott, fish tails, pup eye, and a coarse pinball circus. And then when he moved to Capcom as the creative director, he more or less had his hands in all the Capcom pinball games that were released from Capcom in the 90s. Unbelievable guy, we're going to get him on the phone right now, Python, Python Anghelo, we're going to talk to him right now on Topcast. Hello. Python, it's Joshua Clay. Joshua Clay. How you doing? Good. I'd like to start with how you got into pinball. I don't know if pinball was part of your youth? I was in your country in communist Romania. I put money in and kids were very poor there and I got pissed off, I got ripped off. So then educated as an artist, a remote soundsman, success as many fathers and failure as an orphan. I have heard that John Eucomer designed joust. I have heard that pinball was designed by Barry Oswald. Several other guys and I can send you by the way my pinball storyboard for pinball. Oh, very cool. Now I can take pictures of this so you can put them. That would be great. You know, and I tell you what, I am so disgusted. That's why I don't go to the pinball show. The rubber show. Oh, okay. Why? All those guys that claim they are designers, they are silent, who they didn't design anything. And I still design games and some of them are incredible. They are what I call virtual reality pinball that you play with people and objects. I rather have people having fun at the truth. They are like me for a lie. But I will tell you like it is because by the way, I am also a wild and crazy guy. And I did a lot of stuff that I regret. But I take care of it for it. Anyway, let me tell you clearly I have been interviewed by the Smithsonian Life magazine Chicago Tribune many times. And what I want to do is serve your purpose on what you are looking for to give your audience. So we cut through the chase. Did you read any rent found ahead? No, I guess I did. I am not familiar with that. She is the greatest writer and novelist that ever lived on this planet. The name of the book is the phone head. If you interview designers, read that book first. Let me tell you why. There are copycat and crazy cats. I am a crazy cat. You understand? Yes, I know you mean. Okay. In our industry, huge injustices, Steve Riches, Harry Williams says, are the real innovators. In the book, the phone head, they are or rock. That's the hero of the book. Okay? Okay. The rest are manipulators, money men and copycat. And you are a crazy cat. Yes, I am a creator. I am not a manipulator, a liar, a copier. I don't go and steal from other people's ideas. One of the things I want to talk to you about is the pinball circus. That game is unbelievable. Of course, I tell you what. We better put my interview. Because I want you, I am not going to lie to you, but I want you to make up your mind if you really want the story of pinball circus. Well, yeah, why wouldn't I? Read the phone head. And by the way, you might write your greatest book. You might write a greater book than you ran about Steve Riches using Jarvis Python Anghelo and become a very famous and rich man. I am going to give you the story and a silver platter because I am designing games. But you seem to me like a writer and a communicator. And by the way, I am 53, going on 17. And I know good. You got enough youth and enough experience to handle this. Well, by the way, after you read a rant and by the way, you won't be able to leave the book down. I won't you. No, no, if you know, I publish books. I write for a three-amaran businessman. Did you interview Jarvis Hiddepin Balls? Yes. Yes, Eugene. Yes, we have interviewed Eugene. He's a genius. He's a creator. Not a copycat. Did you interview Steve Riches? Yes, interviewed Steve Riches. Yes. Yep. We did George Gomez. We did a bunch of them. He's a, by the way, George Gomez or George Gomez and the two belly guys and Dennis. Dennis Nordman? Norman. Yep. They are good guys. Yeah, interviewed Dennis too. Yeah. He's a good guy. Yep. Yep. Did both those guys and those interviews came out really nice? Yeah, they are good people. They are very passionate. My two heroes are Eugene Jarvis and Steve Riches. You know, and Harry Williams. Williams was destroyed. When I left, I knew they won't do Pimbo Circus. That's why I left. And Capcom bullshit, it means. I have a sit down, Pimbo. For you sit under a play field with your head in a bubble and a flip or so in front of your nose and both fly around your head, Pimbo is dead because the money man, the money man and the copycat and the bullshitters took over the industry. And by the way, that happened to Rocky Rowe. When the Rolling Stones, Jimmy Hendrix, as soon as the big studios and our girlfriends and all those guys took over the industry, Williams Electronics was not a game company anymore. Michael Stroll ruined it once because he went public and all-luny Castro. You see, my dad told me a thing when I was a kid. If you do the best soup in a village, everybody will come and buy your soup. If you worry about making a profit or the business, the money, you will make a good soup. Because you worry about the bill of materials. Right. The same thing happened to our industry, whether Pimbo or video. The money man and that's what happened into our country, ruining our kids, our economy. The Chinese don't give a shit. They work for almost nothing like we used to do. And they want to do the best of the lowest price products. But they want to do the best. If you want to do a good job, it costs me in New York with L, recommend five times the price and it stinks. You know how to do it. Right. Plastic toy. Nick Castro, throw all those guys, all those money man. And our stern is going to pound the final nails in a coffin of Pimbo. Because all those guys are money man. They preach that they care about the game or they don't. Yeah, they're just worried about the bottom line instead of making the good soup. Right. Right. Do you think I don't worry about the bottom line? You know what the bottom line is? If you have the best freaking game in the world, let's see American Dreamers brought from Communists. These guys are rapist communists and bushlers that destroying our country not just the Pimbo industry. Now when did you come over to America? When I was a kid, I was a young kid. I was 17 years old. And you said that there was pinball in Romania? Absolutely. In two places. A Chaushezcus place in Bucharest and the one I played by the black seat. What he is son, I was a... I'll tell you all about it. Okay. But the thing is, it's not that. I was educated to be a painter or writer. Pimbo to me was a miniature amusement park. That poor kid could go and fulfill their fantasies, changing to the ball. And they have power in their fingertips for 25 cents. And I couldn't believe that in United States of America, Nikiastro and Godlyb and what is name and all these guys. And the reason for it is, it's very busy designing games and they are busy. Fucking over the designers of the person world, making money. So they could go water round by bigger yachts, by a limo there and another foot attached to it. You know, I call it a writers, you know, a run. I don't have any love for Nikiastro either. Not just him, there are other accomplices, but you know, I love Kenny, but he has no spine. I love the management, you know, a lot of the guys in the management. But I have no respect for the guys that screwed over millions of passionate silver ball enthusiasts. And basically screwed me over because I thought I could change it. And I did for a while and we were on our way with people of circus and a sit-down flipper, except they couldn't maximize their profits. Obviously I haven't seen the sit-down pinball, but I have played pinball circus and I think that game is just unbelievable. You didn't see it with everything. I bet you played the version that Steve Coraz stripped down. That's correct. I mean, that's not the... The ramps that had a ball, a surf point time, like my first encyclon, my surf point time, the ball horizontally coming towards you. I was going left and right, the F-ing. Okay. On a surf point time ramp, these guys were coming down like a course group. Huh. From the top. Now, Cordack has won. Where's the other one? And is his different than Cordack's? I don't know. You know what? This is me off. I don't have one. Yeah, well, there's only those two, right? No, they made six of them. Where are the other four? I am the best one, which is still with me. So what do you mean you said you didn't have one, but you do? Yes, in my mind. Oh, okay. I have the real pinball circus. Maybe one day I'll get an honest money, man. To do the magic again. So you would build if somebody came up to you and said, I want to build pinball circus. You would do it. Yeah, absolutely. And I won't just build pinball circus now, because I'm a chord. And since then I designed amusement park rides. I designed other things. I am hearing Green Bay designing the real virtual reality environment for a future. With military technology. To me, yeah, absolutely. I would do it. I would do it in a New York second. I would do it on my free time. Was your disappointment with pinball circus? What got you away from Williams and moved you to Capcom? Yeah, absolutely. No, hey, I didn't leave Williams because of money or anything. I realized that they were designing pinball games by Formula like Gary Strandas today. Three bumpers, two flipers. It's like, time me up. Time my ankle's up. Time me up. And now you are need to invent a new ballet dance. It was crazy. It was just business, man. It was bullshit. It was not game design anymore. So when you got to went to Capcom, did they give you creative freedom to do whatever you wanted? They promised it to me. And then they said, we cannot do that because we have to first prove that we can do as good as Williams. And the reason I couldn't leave Capcom is because they gave me a contract I couldn't walk out of. And by the way, once I make a commitment to the people, I keep it. Was Williams pretty mad at you when you left? I can't even have a Kenny came to my office for six months. He didn't believe I would not come back. It's me. What would bring me back? And I told him, I've been to games like pinball circus or greater. I'm not leaving because of the money. I took a pick up from all these in studios. I went from $64,000 to $32,000 in 1979 to Jordan Williams. Because I was excited. I knew computer programmers were not animators. They were all scrolling pixels across the screen. Like Nolan, Bushnell and Eugene and so on. And Larry Damar. I was a top animator and I went there to animate joust. And I took a 50% pick up to $32,000 from $64. Wow. Wait, when I left Williams, you sitting down? Yeah. I took a 190 grand pick up. To go to Capcom? Yes. Oh my gosh. No, you don't understand something. Read the phone head and then you interview me. It's when you and I are worried about our future. And I don't know what else to help. There's not another America or Australian New Zealand don't cut it. And is that another planet with civilized intelligence life caused by? Good point. Yeah. So if we don't do it, if we don't, and God bless you, I love that the fact that you take the time to do this. But if you do it, you want me to help you to do it right from the heart. Is an investment to our next generations? Because I made my bones, I have my feathers. And right now I'm doing really, I'm doing some great stuff. I love you to visit us as far as the proof of principle on some incredible magic. Well now, where are you working at right now? Baitek. No, don't worry. And you're designing what? You're giving these under. I have my own, I basically have my special forces. I got the best engineers on the planet, best technology in Canada, Europe and United States. Because I, in the next two years, I'm going to embarrass Microsoft and PlayStation and Sony. I did that before, so I, and some of the guys that I cannot talk about, were involved with me at Williams. So at Capcom, would they promise you a complete creative freedom, but they wouldn't give it to you? No, they've been, usually me. They used my name to get Japanese big millions. Okay? Well, in Europe, I'm not going to go into that. Capcom is a black hole. But let me put it very clear. When I went there, I, I couldn't leave Williams till I finished Popeyes and Pimbo Circus. Now, they offered me to be director of whatever. I told them, although I did not ever contract that I only lived in until I finished my two projects. Margrigy left before Indiana Jones was done. And he got the top spot. And now, Margrigy, like Barry Osler, told you was a game designer. The two, those two guys, Joshua Clay, are nothing but screwdriver and hammer guys. They couldn't write a half page essay. Okay? They can't, they don't know kinetics. They don't understand even the idea of a inclined field or whatever. They don't even know the history of Pimbo. They never went to Europe to see a bug at El. But by the way, you know what the Titan was, the real giant. Harry Williams, he was real another of the vengeance. Steve Corla claims, because he's not allowed to debate him. Harry, Steve Corla claims, he put a flip or cinema, that's bullshit. Harry Williams, I know I'm screaming, I'm very emotional about Harry Williams. It's like, it's so ridiculous. Corla was against my million-shot in Comet. And then he took credit for it. I'm working on a game right now that was designed by Harry. It's a 1954 Williams game. It's called Nine Sisters. And it's just unbelievable the things that are designed into that game. The guy made the jet bumper. The jet bumper. The other Harry Williams designed the torpedoes that worked against the Japanese. And they tested them on Chicago River behind Williams during the war. No, I never heard that. True story. Harry Williams was the most, and you know, I was like that, and people stepped over me. And that's why I retired at my farming Michigan. I was very bitter. Read Inland, found and said. How did Capcom handle the Ziggy Binghy project? It was rumored that that game had like penises for flippers and women's breasts for the pop bumper caps. And it was a very sexual game where the outhaul in the game was, well, let your imagination run wild with that one. I mean, were they okay with that? Absolutely the women loved it. It was character-assessinated. It was not a pornography game. I have the play field. I have the design. It is the greatest game. It's men and women. And the flipper is by the guy's shorts. Is that a penis? It's a flipper. The jet bumper side are boobs just like in a machine, the pride of pinbott. And by the way, Joshua Clay, every game in the world is a sexual game. Sexual, not vulgar, not pornography. You know what? Digging in the easel. That's why animals in spring play games. If the best male gets a female, I am a true designer. I understand games. I can take you in game history to the first bones. Because I studied it. I did my homework. Roller, all this copycat. They don't know games. Roller copied my head idea. For fun, house. You came up with that? You mean like the pride of pinbott, you took it a step further or something? No, she didn't. She didn't take it a step further. I had that head. I was thinking about changing things. Because I spoke to my office with Larry Damar. And pushed it politically around me, while I was fishing in Canada. I mean, I can tell you, I am telling you, you can write a movie and a novel about us. And that's why I told you. Eugene Jarvis, genius, I respect the guy. I love him. And he's offered a lot. He doesn't talk about it. He doesn't have any... Well, and also he's busy like me doing okay. We have no time to cry. We keep on moving. So when you showed Zingy Bingy to Capcom management, they were okay with the concept? Yes. They took pause. That 138 women and he was approved anonymously. Now, are there any of those games out there? No, we did two playfields. It was a riot to play. And I have, if you, by the way, Zingy Bingy in this day, if we can do it, I should have to get a turn. I took him to Brian Anderson as a playfield. You know the guy there was Magician? Okay. Then I took him from in Zanko's business, and Mark Gritchey was threatened by him. Radida, because he thought he was going to be a minute boy or whatever. We did two playfields with Zingy Bingy. And they are simple. Then imagine a people game with two large pieces of plastic on the two sides, in other plastics. Sure. You know, imagine a game where you can go with your girlfriend and have a blast, because it has gender patterns. There are one male, two female. Imagine a game where you can have interreaction. I mean, it's phenomenal. You know? So, out of all your games that you worked on, what is the one that you feel was the most creative your favorite one? By far, I think I revolutionized the industry with Comet. Before then, you would have a guy that would copy a very Williams layout, move things around a little. I called him a paste-up artist, copycat artist, and they would throw graphics around. And the guy that inspired me was Christian Sun. Oh, yeah, Dave Christensen Sun? All that guy is unbelievable. Yes, David Christian Sun. When I joined the industry, we used to go in Germantown because I speak German. We called him Colonel Natti. Him and I didn't agree, but Hitler, Hitler was the catch me or whatever. He was a fucked-up kid. Anyway, his integration of art and mechanisms was very primal to me, because I was trained into choreographing elements for movies or animated movies. Or theater stage. I did theater plays when I was 11 years old. I was a rich props the whole thing. So I had the training to take moving parts and human emotions and heroes and putting them in a well choreographed script. They went from introduction to climax in a story. And captured the audience, captured the human feelings and soul and entertained them. Take them for a rollercoaster ride. In a miniature amusement park. Hitler was a horror amusement park, an ecstatic, positive, happy amusement park. Those were basic things that were taught to me by masters before. Christianson was the guy that led to me when he saw my stuff. As a matter of fact, because Christianson, I went and saw him forever. And also, he Murphy, whose mother interviewed me. I won. I beat Salvador Adali and what were the other guys, Edometropolata Museum. I took the hallmark of works. I was painting an Eometropolata Museum. So when I was 19 years old. So his aunt, Tim Murphy's aunt, was a Chicago trivial writer. And my house was surrounded by new trucks one morning. And my mom thought I did something bad. They were looking for me. And here I was. And here's the news media came with police and all that. You know, it was like Paris Hilton, 15 seconds of glory. I was the article in a tribune, by the way. But anyway, here's 19 year old kid. There'd be all the big painters in the world. And Christianson knew about it. And so did Tim Murphy, because his aunt was the writer. So in Kephe, as I was looking desperately for a guy to move video forward. As far as choreography and doing joust, which was a catastrophe. Bill Putzer-Ruror came up with a flat button and I came up with the characters as well. Well, anyway, when I came to Williams, I couldn't believe that this media occur, guys. They couldn't even get an A in art class in a good art high school in the United States or Europe. They all trace their art, they're copycat. They control their own sketches. They try stuff on the light table. You know what guys they carry, okay? You know what's scary about this Joshua Clay? It's like watching Yamadayas, Saltieri. They saw their musicians, they saw their composers. Now, they're creators. How much influence did you have on Big Bang Bar at Capcom? I gave that guy everything. The dancing lady was from a beer mug. I wanted to do a St. Paul's Girl, you know the beer? Yeah, sure. I did St. Paul's Girl Dancing in your Beer mug in the center with a wire up her ass. And I did it with John Bello, the great toy guy. It was my idea. We didn't eat any shop. You know John Bello? No, no, I'm personally no. You should interview him. John Bello is a guy that a lot of guys like Mad Lord, a lot of guys take credit for the stuff he did. The end in Adam's family. John Bello, when I brought him in to do my first cultures, Steve Ritchie, Bella, everybody, Larry Domard said, by God, there's a pinball. Don't put those toys there. And after pinballed, and I started putting the toys in, they all copied me when I said about Capi Cats. How did you come up with that idea of what for pinballed? Oh, I'll show you the storyboards. To me, a pinball machine is a robot. You are basically controlling, like an exoskeleton robot in alien, your fingers control the robot. And through you, through your fingers, the robot is an extension of you. I wish I could do that to a woman. That'll be the perfect woman. That's why the machine. That's why the machine, the brighter pinballed, right? Now, did you try and get Mr. Roboto from sticks to, you know, be the music or anything? No. No. You don't think to do that. You have to do it with a conquest of the universe, Voyager. I designed pinballed five years before we even started. Now, is there any good stories behind bad cats? Oh, bad cats was a joke. Bad cats and boxbunny are my yes, boy, kids, as... What pisses me off is I said yes to management to do games in three months. So other primates on us, like parallel, or could take 12 months to do an arms family. And by the way, an arms family is not parallel in this game. What do you mean? What do you mean it isn't Path's game? It's Roger Sharp's. Did you hear me? Yeah. Oh, you mean, that was really Roger Sharp's design? Of course it was. Roger Sharp is another genius. Roger Sharp, besides Harry Williams, is another guru that doesn't get enough. Because Roger keeps going. I love Roger. Now, what did you think of Gene Cunningham doing, you know, releasing Big Bang Bar, actually making the game? I don't know if he did that. Yeah, he did. I actually have one. How many? 183 of them. Right. I didn't think that kid that was that Margaret E. Heier was a pinball game designer. I laid out the paper for him where he got loaded at the bar. I then got his turn copied the dancing lady for a ba-ba-ba-ba-bing bar. And the guy who designed the dancing lady and the drinking guys was Python and Jambelo. And the layout's fucked. The layout, it's not. It's another formula pinball. Are you talking about Rob Morrison? Yeah. Rob Morrison is a manipulative. Rob Morrison couldn't design his way out of a paper bed. Everybody was like, when I left Williams, very often I couldn't do a game. When Margaret E. was done with me, he couldn't design a game. He says I killed Gene Jarvis. Anybody that hooks up with you, Gene Jarvis, is going to win the Super Bowl of Video Game Design. There are the managers, coaches and quarterbacks. Imagine guys joining me in Cheezland, not only Wisconsin, from Martin, Marietta and Abbott. And you should see the shit we do. And one thing I will never let happen again is that money man or copycats infiltrate. In the early 90s, like when you were doing fish tails, how was the money man control in that game too? Absolutely. Was there anything added to that game that you wanted in it that got taken out? Oh, absolutely. The fish up on top, the storyboard, you know, the guy in Australia, Mike. He has my original storyboard. Call him. And it's a lot different? I donated my original fish to the storyboard to him. For the PMO museum, yeah, it never happened. I tell him to send you a picture of that thing. Get out of him and you'll see fish tails, the original one. And then on top of it, my idea of the fish talking and moving up on top became a craze in the United States. Right, right, that goofy fishing thing that you mounted on the wall with the talking, singing fish. You got it. The fish tails. That was freaking five years before the guys saw our shit. And Williams never, because all his assholes were, I told him we can put it in every basement. So you were going to have the fish do, you know, actually be animated and talking through the whole game? Yes, yes. And we are the first guys that took a fish and animated the fucking thing. Move the tail and dance up on top of it again. Yeah, you know, I'm a guy that animated works figures for this thing. I mean, you can see the natural progression. And don't give me credit. I credit God and I credit whatever creator of angel, my drummer inside me. Because it's all right. Everybody made a lot of money of my stuff. But I'm a creator. I'm not a butcher when I put a lot of money on. But one thing that if you want to talk to me about this, I will give you my time under one condition. Okay. Really random fun man. And while me talking to you about the past, I can educate our new talented kids, our, our thriving artists, to learn from my mistakes, my history, to take our country and humanity and creativity forward. Then I will feel that you and I getting together, this is something great. Did you have much involvement with Kingpin at Capcom? No. Now, what about flipper football? Did that come out like you wanted? Not the way I wanted it. No. What did you want different in flipper football? Well, if the original storyboard, I wanted the day that again, we were against a cloud to put a product out. There was money and BOM, bill of materials. It was a virtual flipper football was supposed to be like Pimbo 2000. I saw Camp Fedesna for $75,000, which they did. The thing with us, with our video image and the ball. So you mean flipper football was supposed to do that? Yes. And when Capcom fell dead, because Margritchi and Rennelopas, and my father threatened me, and they turned it into that piece of shit, because we had to come up with a quick, quick. The ball was supposed to go into video land, and it was not supposed to be the little display. There was an evolution to Pimbo circus, where a ball-interreactor with an image, going in front of the screen. Okay. And a video image is, when you hit a button, you were supposed to jump over the physical ball. Now, were you going to use an actual color video monitor, or were you going to use the dot matrix? No, I was, yeah, listen. What Williams did with Pimbo 2000, I still have the presentation. Was supposed to do my game, which was a generic, where a ball went into video land, went into a trap into an agent, or stopped, and then the image and the glass, will have the ball continue, and then the ball will morph into different characters. You understand? Yeah, like when the ball goes under the play field, then it enters video land, and you actually see it traveling down, maybe an internal habit trail, and then it morphs into something else. Is that what you mean? You couldn't tell the difference between a physical ball and a ball on the reflection on the glass. But what the open was, Larry Damar, who is Kenny, that, by the idea from him, and we can do it, and Larry Damar is nothing but a great programmer, and a manipulator, and a copycat. Larry Damar is not a creator. He's not, he should have been a lawyer, or a freaking whatever. He's not, he's not huge in service. He's not by turn, he's not. He's not a Roger Sharp. He's not Steve Ritchie. So your idea in Flip or Football was reminiscent, or was kind of like what Pinball 2000 evolved into? Pinball 2000 is what I saw Kenny. He gave me a check for $75,000. I still have the script and everything. And you mean with the reflective mirror design and all that, or just... Yes, yes. So now how did that filter out to Pat Lawler and George Gomez? Excuse me. No employees. I didn't care. I knew they couldn't do it. I knew them. Listen, you know what I like to do? If someone else is out of the picture, wants to take my jet plane, thinking he can fly it. After he flew a crop doctor, he thinks he's an innovator. I give it to him. They crushed him. They burned. What year did you sell this idea to Williams? I did have to get come close. All right, we're going to take a little break talking with Python on TopCast and we'll be right back. Hey George, I just had to call and tell you about this really great magazine I got. It's called the Ping Game Journal, and it's the only magazine dedicated totally to Pinball. It's got great articles and interviews with designers and everything. No George, I won't lend you my copy. Who knows where you'll take it to? You're going to have to go to PingGameGenerale.com and get your own subscription. But George, the guy says that each issue will give mail when it feels like it. What's the deal with that? All right, George, I got to go. Got to call Elaine and tell her, I can't believe how good this magazine is. The Views and Editutes expressed on TopCast belong solely to the appearing guest and may differ significantly from the views and attitudes of the TopCast production staff. And appearance on TopCast does not imply endorsement by TopCast staff. All right, we're back with Python Angelou here on TopCast. And by the way, Grim Futserruder is another genius. Bill is one of the most honorable estimated geniuses in the industry. And he's been beaten down. He's not as aggressive and emotional. Bill is kind of a low-key, nice guy. But he's been beaten down by Larry Domer and by the copycats and the manipulators. And Bill and I did the wacky dots. What a wacky dots. It's Chucky's Office. Any Chucky, she plays as one. I retire because of it. You may know money for me and Bill, then any game I did for William. Isn't that a joke? Like on Pinbot. You know, when that came out, how were you compensated for designing a great game like, you know, say Pinbot? I wasn't. The money was made by any cash for us. Do you mean there was no like a bonus or anything for you? I like your questions. You can know that one of my biggest accomplishments in a coin up industry, the interest is on the first designer that while I got full power over my project of the funds, because I left Williams, I quit. I was discosited with all the bullshit. Went to Europe for six months when I came back, came for the Zna and messages. My mom said, Williams is calling you for two months. I went back and Kenny wanted me to come back to work. And I never worked for Williams since 1985. I was a consultant with an officer. I was working in 24 hours when I wanted to, because I don't believe in coming to work 9 to 5 and pretending I'm working. Or being creative or I can't be creative. I'll go and work for two days, that's up. Or I'll go in and work 16 hours. I'll go in for two hours. And my team was my team. Nobody screwed with them. It was Kimbot. My biggest accomplishment is not a greatest people game. I feel for that format in the world. And simple. And talking about our conquest of the universe through Voyager, which you'll learn, it's under in the belly of the robot. Right. But the poem I wrote is why I'm in a Smithsonian and a poem about the machine. It's about a future of men. If the robots will conquer the universe through our fingertips. Getting back to Kimbot, I will tell you my biggest accomplishment in the Pimbo and the game design industry. I'm the first man at the Pimbo. I went to Kenny. He couldn't do anything. It was too late. I said I put on a play field all the names of my design team. Kenny, there's no problem with that. Two hours later when a play field came in from church, a cabinet sprinted. But you know what? All the glory, grabbers. All the money, Pulators. All the control tricks were in Kenny's office. What is he doing? Kenny called me. He said, Pytani, you cannot do this. I'm getting too much, because Kenny is a nice man, but he has no spine. I said Kenny, it's not like the way games were done in the past. It was one guy. And my analogy to him was the way Charlie Chaplin did his movies. And coming from the movie industry and the theatrical, I said Kenny, today making a Pimbo game is not like having one guy. You know Charlie Chaplin is to set the camera and you know what they call a monkey that turned on him, right? I'm talking about the camera monkey. Charlie Chaplin, there is only a cop or a script that got two supporting actors. And there is great masterpieces, right? Right. Okay, there's two Pimos. Now I told Chris Granner, I want music like Van Gellis. Was he okay with that? No, he wasn't, we argued, because he is, but anyway, I won't go there, but Chris Granner wrote the greatest Pimbo music original. Not copied from Wahali Wood. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's the greatest masterpiece Chris Granner did under my direction. I told him I won Van Gellis, I won better than 2001, I won space. I want a trip to Saturn between the rings. We used to get and argue, he was a truly like the surrealists or the impressionists. But as a time where you, I could do that. Then, foot's a roller, he was great, everybody was great. I was just a choreography and a stage master. I was a Steven Spielberg. It was great. Here's one of the most special moments in Koina, not in I am more successful experiences in other fields, books and so on. But, at the other day, I thought it was unfair to put Steve Ritchie or whatever, the roller or whatever. So I put the design team like George Lucas, it was Star Wars. He was my hero George Lucas. So, then another thing I did is I went to Kenny and I said, my peanuts, whatever 25 bucks a game, whatever, which was peanuts. The guys that were getting $100, $200 a game. I want to give foot's you know split it. Right. Kenny had no problem, but now when this assholes found out that I did that, they were threatened. So, all of a sudden, after Pimbad, I was doing three great Pimbad games a year, case and point. Cyclone, jokers and taxi in one year, major hits. Big time hits. Yeah, well, hang on. The roller and Steve Ritchie were taking 14 months with three times the engineers. I had a team of five guys. They would kill for me. I told them go kill me, Castro, they fucking probably would have. Because these Alexander the Great Principle. If people kick ass for you, share your clothes, your food, your glory with them. Living at trenches. No, it's the right thing to do. Yeah, absolutely. So, no matter how you cut it, I was the guy that drove everybody crazy, except my own team, and gave the big results. And to me, it didn't matter. To me, the only most important thing is that I kept my promise from a child, and then I want the kids that put a quarter in a game, not to feel ripped off. Now, did police force start out as police force or was it something else? It was bad, man. And why did it get morphed into police force? Because I always do alternate plans, I plan A, B, and C. I knew there would be a car, I knew there would be. But it was a good guy fighting the bad guys. We were supposed to get bad men. You couldn't get the license? No, there is a model was working with Kamikaw. Kamikaw get bad men. Now, what do you mean Larry DeMar was working with Kamikaw? Larry DeMar was a scoundrel. He's still is. Larry DeMar was stealing shit and night, and taking them to the data east for Joe Kamikaw. How did you know that? I knew it because when I did Pinbat, Joe Kamikaw did whatever. It was a robot game. Because the garden people in a company reported me on what he did when I was not there. Were you disappointed that it ended up as police force instead of Batman? No, I didn't care. I think police force was a great game. The drug rats. I didn't know Bill Clinton. There would be a bill for president. It's again my instinct. You know, the loan shark, which offended me castro, the mafia, if you look at all the bad, it's a, if you read my script, then even father parwish those poems. So you see, I first wrote a poem or a script for what it will be. And then I designed a page. There's other clowns shooting the dark. They, they copied some of my kids most, and they tried to get a license or put up a story to it. So you mean you're creative the way you work is you write a poem first. And then script, you have, you cannot just take a stage, which is a pinball game. And then you start throwing mechanisms in it. Or go out through this actor. He looks good to me. Or you have to have a story. You have to have a plot. You have to have choreography. It's like Cirque du Soleil. You can just say, okay, give me a pen. Oh, I like the swing. And I, you, you don't do that. You cannot let the promise design. You have to have an architect to build a building. Not a promise and the electricians. They're not great architects. They're great architects of foreign industry. And visionaries are periwilliams, Roger Sharp, Eugene Jarvis. You can write that. Hey, just call me on that. So what game was, did you think was true genius that you did not have any any input on? True genius. Yeah. The true genius was Robert Ron. Defender and Robert Ron. Because that was a video game designer. Now what about pinball though? Terminator. So you like Terminator? Terminator is a story of Robert Ron, saving your family against robots. Eugene Jarvis should get all the credit for Terminator. Eugene Jarvis is a genius. A force here. He is a force here. He is a Yoda. Eugene Jarvis. But what pinball was like your favorite that you didn't have anything to do with? Roger Sharp Apo. A Bacaroo. Bacaroo. By the way, cats was kind of a copy of Bacaroo. He animated his mechanical back glass. Right. There was not a Python original. There was a thing I had to do in six months for the line. That's why I said to you, I'm not proud of. I'm proud of putting the wheel for cars in jokers and in cyclone in the back glass or in Big Bang Bar, the Pachanko. Or having a skier shot, all the skier shots. The great ones on taxi, on police force. You name it. The great skier. Right of the bat. It's like rowing the wheel game on TV. What wheel of fortune? Yeah, wheel of fortune. When you start with the thing, real quick, right of the bat here, again. And then, okay, you get the name. What is that locality, what country? Real quick, right of the bat. Bang, bang, bang, the game is run. Harry Williams invented those skier shots. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, no, I know exactly. You know, he actually came up with that design. If you look at like Pat Lawler's NASCAR, you know, which he did a year ago. And you look at Harry Williams game from just after World War II. Harry Williams had that same sort of skill shot that went around the upper bar of arch. It came all the way back down and around the lower arch and then back out to the middle of the play field.