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Episode 12: "He Played them both, What's the better game?"

The Flipside Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·45m 35s·analyzed·Sep 21, 2024
67676f9a-3ad7-44c9-a1b1-b58f352c3b4e
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Retro Ralph and Kale compare Avatar and X-Men pinball machines with operator perspective on profitability.

Summary

Retro Ralph interviews Kale from Electric Bat Arcade about two major recent pinball releases: Jersey Jack's Avatar and Stern's X-Men. The discussion covers gameplay impressions, innovative mechanical features, designer interactions, community dynamics, and operator economics. A notable tension emerges around Jersey Jack's lack of awareness of Electric Bat's prominence in the industry, and broader concerns about game profitability at commercial venues versus home collections.

Key Claims

  • Jersey Jack's Avatar took at least twice as long to develop as a typical Stern game (approximately 2 years)

    medium confidence · Kale states 'This took at least twice as long. I think they mentioned this was like a two-year project.'

  • Avatar features a unique single-flipper mode where using the right flipper forfeits bonus or points

    high confidence · Kale: 'You can only use the left flipper, and if you hit the right flipper... you forfeit a bonus, right, or something? Yeah. Or you forfeit your points.'

  • Avatar includes a novel mechanical element: a flat plate that functions as three different ball paths (standard path, scoop, and jump ramp)

    high confidence · Kale describes the mechanic in detail: 'it pops up and becomes a scoop that takes the ball into the lower play field... and then it pops up and becomes a jump ramp.'

  • Jersey Jack machines at Electric Bat arcade do not generate enough revenue to justify their cost compared to Stern machines

    high confidence · Kale: 'with the past two titles, we just... It's not earning enough to justify the cost. It's just not earning enough. You know, we can very quickly pay off a stern. Like people just pump quarters into those things. Jersey Jack, as good as the games are, they don't have any kind of long tail.'

  • Only one Jersey Jack machine (Wizard of Oz) has paid off at a major California arcade after 8 years

    medium confidence · Kale: 'he verified it he said the only Jersey Jack he has that has paid off is Waz because it's wow okay it's been there for eight years'

  • Jack Jersey (Jersey Jack owner) was not aware of Electric Bat's prominence when meeting Kale at the media mixer

    high confidence · Kale recounts: 'he chimed in and said uh okay well let me give you my personal number 1-800-JERSEY-JACK and I'll teach you how to operate pinball machines personally'

  • Electric Bat operates 'one of the most popular arcades in the nation' and houses 'the largest single location pinball league in the entire world'

    high confidence · Kale: 'my wife and i run the uh a very popular arcade one of the most popular ones in the nation we house the largest single location pinball league in the entire world'

Notable Quotes

  • “This is just such a very cool game to shoot and a beautiful game. I've never seen either movie, and I couldn't stop playing it.”

    Kale@ 16:57 — Demonstrates that Avatar's gameplay appeal transcends theme/IP, addressing community concerns about Avatars lackluster fan interest

  • “Jersey Jack, as good as the games are, they don't have any kind of long tail. They don't have the staying power that some of the other games do.”

    Kale@ 18:20 — Operator perspective on why Jersey Jack machines are economically unviable at commercial venues compared to Stern

  • “I pump their game. You know, I rave about Godfather. I rave about Elton John. It's like, you know, hey, kid, give me a call and I'll teach you how to make money with pinball machines.”

    Kale@ 22:03 — Expresses frustration over Jersey Jack owner's apparent ignorance of Electric Bat's influence and operator credibility

  • “as soon as I plunged this ball on X-Men and felt these stern flippers I was like, I'm home again there's no lag you have full power it feels so good”

    Kale@ 29:25 — Direct comparison of flipper mechanics between Jersey Jack and Stern, highlighting significant tactile difference in player experience

  • “This thing, just like all of Jersey Jacks games, this thing is beautiful.”

    Kale@ 7:53 — Acknowledges Avatar's superior aesthetic and artistry despite operator profitability concerns

  • “Goosebumps. Look at it. It was so good, dude.”

    Retro Ralph@ 25:57 — Enthusiastic reaction to X-Men trailer, representing community hype cycle before live stream dampened excitement

  • “And I think I'm the only one that's sober that doesn't drink. And so Kaneda's trying to give me shots.”

Entities

Kale HernandezpersonRetro RalphpersonRachelpersonElectric Bat ArcadecompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack machines underperform economically at commercial venues despite high quality; Avatar to be operated by Game Room Goodies rather than Electric Bat due to poor ROI on previous JJP titles

    high · Kale: 'with the past two titles, we just... It's not earning enough to justify the cost' and 'We are getting it [Avatar]. Oh, cool. Okay. But Game Room Goodies is going to operate it.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Avatar features unprecedented multi-function metal plate mechanism that serves as three distinct ball paths (standard, scoop, jump ramp) and novel single-flipper play mode

    high · Kale describes mechanism in detail; notes no prior pinball game has replicated exact single-flipper forfeiture mechanic

  • ?

    design_innovation: Avatar uses gradual UV eclipse effect synchronized across playfield and monitor display, simulating realistic eclipse progression rather than sudden shift

    high · Kale: 'In Avatar, it happens so gradually, you don't even notice it... the eclipse goes across the monitor'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Shift in industry culture: designers from different manufacturers (Mark Seiden/Jersey Jack, Jack Danger/Stern) now socialize and exchange praise; contrasts with historical competitive secrecy of Bally/Williams era

    high · Retro Ralph: 'two designers from two different companies just hanging out and having a good time... I don't think in the past that would have happened'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Rachel (first-time pinball artist) created Avatar artwork; previously worked on Hearthstone cards; mechanical engineer team includes Rachel and Scott Denise

Topics

Avatar pinball (Jersey Jack) gameplay, mechanics, and aestheticsprimaryX-Men pinball (Stern) gameplay and community receptionprimaryJersey Jack vs. Stern: design philosophy, flipper mechanics, and player experience differencesprimaryOperator economics and profitability: Jersey Jack machines vs. Stern machines at commercial venuesprimaryJersey Jack brand recognition and communication with operatorsprimaryPinball industry community culture: designer accessibility, cross-company collaboration, and evolving dynamicssecondaryIP/theme appeal in pinball: nostalgia vs. gameplay qualitysecondaryPinball media events and live stream production qualitysecondaryElectric Bat Arcade brand visibility and community influencesecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.55)— Positive enthusiasm for both games' quality and mechanics; high praise for Avatar's artistry and innovation; genuine excitement for X-Men despite live stream concerns. However, significant frustration with Jersey Jack's operator economics, Jack Jersey's lack of awareness, and broader industry communication issues. Balanced operator perspective acknowledges game quality while expressing realistic business concerns.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.137

0:00
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Flipside Podcast. I'm your host, Retro Ralph, and you are here right now live with Kale from Electric Bat. Right, in the Electric Bat arcade. Yeah, in the arcade. I know, how cool is this, man? This is great. I have never done this before, but I've wanted to do it for years because, as you know, when you came in here, there's a big stage, right? And a lot of bands come through here, and this is where they do podcasts. So, finally, I have my time.
0:30
your time to shine this is great yeah so i will put some b-roll content in so they can see the rest of the bar so that yeah so if you guys don't know uh i mean actually you know what i need to ask you in your podcast you introduce yourself and you and rachel as the click and clack so who's click and who's clack because i'm trying to figure is it just uh i think she's click and i'm clack okay all right all right i'm glad we got that so so i from my viewpoint electric bat is kind of a big deal. Thank you. Everyone knows. I watch videos of some creator out in Europe,
1:02
and he's wearing an electric bat shirt. Wow. So I feel like the brand is big now, and I think that's because you're the social media guy, right? Well, Rachel has a lot to do with that, especially initially with the shirts. She designed the logo, and she used to go around to all of the conferences and give the shirts to some key players. That's why you see Keith Elwin wearing it, Jack Danger, and having it on his stream.
1:32
So you can't give me all the credit for the notoriety. You get some. All right, so for those that don't know who you are, Cale, just give me a quick introduction. I obviously do, but just for everyone out there. Okay, well, I got into the pinball biz working at Marco's Specialty. A lot of people think Marco is in, not California, but Chicago. And it's really not. It's in a very rural area of South Carolina where I grew up.

  • X-Men has a standard flipper gap but appears wider due to visual design

    medium confidence · Kale: 'It's a standard flipper gap. It just looks weird... maybe just the way it looks. Your eyes are playing tricks on you. I mean, it's all CAD.'

  • Avatar uses UV lighting effects that simulate an eclipse gradually across the playfield and monitor

    high confidence · Kale describes the effect: 'In Avatar, it happens so gradually, you don't even notice it... the eclipse goes across the monitor... it's simulating an eclipse.'

  • Avatar's artist is a first-time pinball artist who previously worked on Hearthstone cards

    medium confidence · Kale: 'This is a first-time pinball artist, and she worked on some Hearthstone cards.'

    • Kale@ 24:29 — Casual insight into post-announcement private party dynamics and designer accessibility

  • “It's not like a repeat. It's not like something from their childhood that they want to watch a bunch of times.”

    Retro Ralph@ 14:39 — Identifies Avatar's weak nostalgia/IP appeal as potential market concern

    • Avatar
    game
    X-Mengame
    Jack Jerseyperson
    Mark Seidenperson
    Jack Dangerperson
    Kanedaperson
    Aaron (Game Room Goodies)person
    Marco Specialtycompany
    Rachel (Avatar mechanical engineer)person
    Scott Deniseperson
    Gomezperson
    Wasonperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Wizard of Oz (WoZ)game
    Godzillagame
    Jawsgame
    Elton Johngame
    Interiumcompany
    The Flipside Pinball Podcastorganization

    high · Kale mentions first-time artist with Hearthstone background; references Rachel as mechanical engineer and Scott Denise for custom rubber

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: X-Men hype deflated post-live stream due to perceived rushing, costume constraints, and camera/production issues; recovered partially by end of stream; players still committed despite concerns

    high · Retro Ralph: 'the hype kind of was like leaving my body... it seemed like maybe they rushed to do the live stream' but 'I'm still buying it I'm still hyped about it'

  • ?

    community_signal: Jersey Jack owner Jack Jersey unaware of Electric Bat Arcade's prominence despite Bat's status as leading operator and content creator; media personnel present found this disrespectful

    high · Kale: Jack made dismissive offer to 'teach you how to operate pinball machines'; Retro Ralph: 'that is very weird to me to be in the hobby and not know like not know the brand electric bat'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Stern X-Men flippers provide noticeably superior tactile feedback, responsiveness, and power compared to Jersey Jack Avatar; offset flipper design not mechanically obstructive despite visual appearance

    high · Kale: 'as soon as I plunged this ball on X-Men and felt these stern flippers I was like, I'm home again there's no lag you have full power'

  • ?

    product_concern: Community speculation that X-Men is overly difficult/drain-prone based on live stream performance; unconfirmed but circulating on forums

    medium · Retro Ralph: 'I've heard a lot of people say that they think it's going to be a drain monster. I think that's from that stream.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Stern and Jersey Jack both hosted media events/mixers with factory tours, designer meetings, and hands-on gameplay; Jersey Jack emulating Stern's media strategy

    high · Kale: 'media mixer at Jersey Jack... emulating what Stern did'; toured both facilities, met designers and engineers

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community sentiment suggests Avatar movie IP has weak nostalgic/repeat-watch value with pinball demographic; concerns theme may limit home collector interest despite game quality

    medium · Retro Ralph: 'people are like, oh, yeah, I like the movie, but it's not like a repeat... not like something from their childhood'

  • $

    market_signal: Only Jersey Jack machine (Wizard of Oz) to achieve full payoff at major commercial arcade after 8 years; structural revenue issue across JJP lineup

    high · Kale: verified via Game Room Goodies owner that WoZ is 'the only Jersey Jack he has that has paid off... it's been there for eight years'

    • 2:03
    And so, long story short, I started working there doing customer service and graphic design. Started touring with them and Stern, promoting Marco products and Stern products. And that's where I met Rachel. Okay. A little love story. We met on Zoom, and for me it was love at first sight. I took her a little, I had to convince her. I know, I know. Can you believe it? Come on, you're so likable, Kay. Like, really? You had to convince her?
    2:33
    Okay. So, anyway. May I ask what you had to do? I mean, what was the convincing? No, just hanging out on the road and us getting to know each other. So, like, within, like, three weeks of us meeting, I think we got married. Oh, no way. Okay, I didn't know that. It was instant. Wow, that's crazy. Right. And then, you know, unfortunately, and I miss my family and Marco, but we still keep in touch. But I left Marco in South Carolina to move here to Arizona.
    3:05
    And Rachel had already opened up Electric Bat. But it was only this first room that we're in. It was just this small. And the first time I went, it was just this space. Yes. This is it. There was just this space and, you know, maybe like, what, 14 machines? Yes. And some video games. And then we broke into the next room. And then as of, I think, like two years ago, we broke into the monster room where we could have the big tournaments. Yeah, and I came for one. I didn't get to play in it.
    3:35
    And I was so impressed by it. It's really cool because I kind of feel like I fell into pinball about three years ago. And my feeling at that time was that, oh, man, it's going to be hard to build a community. And then when I fast forward and I come here, and you guys, it keeps getting bigger. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty awesome. You're going to outgrow this place probably. Yeah, well, we'll have to take over the Circle K next door, which we actually try to do, but we can't do that. But, yeah, and this is really, this is more about community than pinball.
    4:10
    It really is seeing friends, hanging out with people, you know, staying away from the phone or whatever and worrying about, you know, news and current events and just like getting lost and hanging out with all of these awesome people that we see right now. You know, that's what it's really about, building this community. And that's what arcades were originally about. Like meeting, that's where your friends are going to be. That's where you're going out. Meeting up with them and hanging out all night long. And that's what we're trying to recreate, that feel of the 70s, 80s, and 90s right here.
    4:45
    And I feel like, you know, that I feel that the first time I came in here. I was like, wow, this feels, you know, because it's got like a little bit of a seedy vibe, but not like seedy disgusting. You know what I mean? Like it has that old arcade feel. It's kind of dark in here. Like when Cale met me at the front, I couldn't even see him. He was just this voice that was just traveling in the dark. I'm like, hey, man, is that you? He's like Slender Man. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I feel like if you're ever in town and you want to check out a place that's really built a good community,
    5:18
    Tuesday nights you guys do the tournaments. Tuesday nights at 630. We do not miss a Tuesday night. No matter if it's a holiday or every Tuesday night we have a tournament. All right. Well, okay, so obviously, Cale, I came down here not because I just don't want to hang out. I want to hang out with Cale. Right. But the last couple of weeks have been pretty big in pinball. Like, there's been some big news. You know, it's always a little slow in the summer, and then just bam. Two big things drop at almost the same time. Right, right. And I don't know what sequence we want to really talk about.
    5:49
    I'll leave that up to you, actually. But you got a chance to go out to Chicago, and the main point of that trip was to go out with Jersey Jack to see Avatar. Sure. But the week prior, that's when X-Men got announced, and they showed the trailer for it, did a gameplay live stream. So you were kind of in the mix of all that because you did get a chance to go over to Stern. Right. So I'm kind of excited because I'm not really a Jersey Jack fan, not because they don't make a good product. There hasn't been something that they've made yet that I want to add to my personal collection.
    6:20
    Sure. But I've enjoyed the games on site. So I kind of want to start, if you're cool with it, I kind of want to start with Avatar because it's, yeah. I was going to do that. Okay, cool. All right. I just told you you could and then I told you what to do. Like, what a dick. Yeah, I, okay, so I was invited to a media mixer at Jersey Jack. And I think this is the first one they've done. They're emulating what Stern did, the trip we went on. And it was basically the same thing.
    6:51
    Tour of the factory, let's meet up in the conference room, talk about the game. meet all of the designers, all of the mechanical engineers, and then most importantly, play the game. So we all started, I think we started out playing the game. We went into... Oh, you went straight to playing the game? Like they didn't do the tour first? Well, it was there. I'm trying to remember the sequence of events, but the four games were there. And they're back to Ellie and CE on Elton John.
    7:26
    And it was like, you know, kind of like the record industry. Like one was platinum and one was something or gold. I don't know. Anyway, but now they're back to L.E. and C.E. Okay. So we did a short tour and it was cool. And it was, I mean, you're seeing a lot of the same kind of assembly line stuff we saw at Stern. Yeah. But it was very cool. Very cool to see all that. Then we got to play it. Okay. This thing, just like all of Jersey Jacks games, this thing is beautiful.
    7:58
    I mean, it looked, when I was watching the trailer, I mean, it was very clear. The one thing I think it's worth mentioning is Jersey Jacks, the development time is much longer than Stern. Yeah, I think this. I think it's like a three-year project or something, or two or three. This took at least twice as long. I think they mentioned this was like a two-year project. Okay, I don't know where I heard three somewhere. That might be wrong. but a lot longer than, like, probably double the time of a Stern game in development or close to that. Right. For sure. So you want to get into the gameplay or what do you think?
    8:31
    Yeah, because there's so many things that I saw that I was like, because the one thing, you know, me being, like, somewhat newer, right? Three years, I don't have a lot of the, I'm going back and starting, even when I come here, it's cool because you guys have a lot of the older games weaved in, so I can kind of experience those. And then when I go to Expo. But the thing I'm always looking for is these new games come out, and I'm looking for what innovative thing did they do. And there were a couple things. I would like you to mention them, but the single-hand thing, that's some cool stuff. But I didn't play it, so it sounded cool, but it isn't cool.
    9:03
    I missed that. The single-hand thing. Oh, there's like a thing where the game is forcing you to play with one flipper. With only a left flipper. Yes, that's right. I did not get to that mode somehow. Oh, no. Okay. But I watched people play that, so I totally forgot about that. That was interesting. But that's never been done before, right? Has it? Well, in Rick and Morty, there's a mode that's kind of similar, but I think it's like you only get so many shots with the left flipper.
    9:33
    With this one, you can only use the left flipper, and if you hit the right flipper... You, like, forfeit a bonus, right, or something? Yeah. Or you forfeit your points. Right, yeah. So that's a little different. I don't think anyone's pulled off anything exactly like this. But the game is very, very cool. I saw some mechs that I have yet to see. One of the coolest mechs is a girl named, and I wish I could remember her last name.
    10:04
    It's like Rachel. You'll add it on the lower third. Yeah, we'll fill it up. But Rachel was their mechanical engineer, because I was very interested in some of these mechs and how they worked. But there's this one mech in the game, and I don't know if you saw it in the video. So it's a flat rectangular plate to the left of the right ramp. Okay. And so in photos and videos, you can miss this thing. I've never seen anything like this. So you have your one ball path, and straight over that metal plate, that's one ball path.
    10:39
    Okay. it pops up and becomes a scoop that takes the ball into the lower play field. Okay. So there's your another ball path, and then it pops up and becomes a jump ramp. So it pops up the complete opposite. Right. Kind of like what they did in Toy Story 4, like that? Like, are you launching the ball off of it, or what are you? Well, yes, as a jump ramp. Oh, it becomes part of a, okay. Yeah, but also, unlike Toy Story 4, it pops up this way, and then the ball goes underneath the play field. That's pretty cool. Yeah, they did some really interesting stuff there.
    11:11
    And I was asking Rachel if I could look under the hood and see how this thing worked. She said I would love to show you but we didn get a chance to do it Was that something they were not allowing you guys to do Oh no I don think that was an issue It was just a time thing Yeah because we did the tour and then we had to go to a private party at Interium where they were, I think they were showing the game in public. That was to the public for the first time, right? Right. Yeah, but just like any other Jersey Jack game, the immersive world you're put into,
    11:42
    I mean, it's beautiful with the lights, incredible artwork. Yeah. This is an artist who, this is a first-time pinball artist, and she worked on some Hearthstone cards. Are you familiar with that? No. That's what they were talking about. And I've seen photos of them, and they're beautiful. But this thing looks absolutely gorgeous, right on par with any other Jersey Jack machine. Yeah. One of the coolest things, the use of the UV lights.
    12:14
    I know, and I saw that. It instantly reminded me of, in the trailer, I mean, obviously it's very much a moment in Stranger Things when that UV kicks on, and it's so cool, and it fits so well with the idea of the upside down and everything. For sure. But when I saw that, I was like, wow, because since then we haven't really seen anybody do something like that. Right. But this, it looks like they did a really good job with it, but it's like the whole entire, isn't it everything on the play field? It's everything, but it's completely different. Okay. So in Stranger Things, and it's very cool, you're like, boom, all of a sudden the UV lights come on and you're in a completely different world.
    12:50
    In Avatar, it happens so gradually, you don't even notice it. Okay. It's simulating an eclipse. Yeah, that's cool. And so you're playing and don't even notice the lights go down and then the UV lights coming in. And then just all of a sudden you're like, whoa, what is going on? It feels like a real eclipse. That's really cool. Right, and not only does the play field change, the eclipse goes across the monitor, the display. Oh, no way. Right, and it doesn't black it out, but it's subtle, but it's dark.
    13:25
    And one of the engineers was even talking about they're probably going to get calls that there's something wrong with my customer service. There's something going on with my monitor. Half of it's dark, but it's the eclipse. So the eclipse starts coming in. That's pretty creative, man. And I like that. It is very cool. And they have some custom silicone rubber that was designed by Scott Denise. Okay. So it's not just like this glow-in-the-dark looking rubber. It's kind of like it has a purple hue to it.
    13:55
    Okay. Yeah. It's going to stand out more when the UV's on. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So this Eclipse thing, that's interesting because I don't feel like in the trailer. In the trailer, they must have accelerated the time that the Eclipse happens because it kind of happens just fast. Right. I guess to show the customer. Yeah. But that's very cool. I like that. It is so subtle. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you this because this was sort of my first take on it. And I think a lot of people are like this. I watched the movie. I've only seen the first one.
    14:25
    I never saw the second one. I haven't seen any of them. Oh, really? Okay. So I was going to ask you, like, is Avatar something you're a fan of? Because it seems like when I'm looking at forums and just sort of like on Pinside or just asking people. Right. People are like, oh, yeah, I like the movie, but it's not like a repeat. It's not like something from their childhood that they want to watch a bunch of times. So even if the game is cool, they seem less interested in it. So that's an interesting, and I kind of feel like the pinball demographic is like our age range. So it wouldn't be a nostalgia play, but I guess someone that's just really into Avatar.
    14:57
    Because I don't know, maybe I'm alone in this, but usually a game speaks to me because there's something about that theme that I like. You know what I mean? For sure. Godzilla, I remember watching those old movies. So to me, I was like, oh, damn, a Godzilla game. That sounds awesome. I'm pointing that way because Godzilla's right there. Or like, oh, I like the band Rush, so therefore I'm going to be gravitating, or Foo Fighters, or whatever it might be. So it'll be interesting to see, and it has happened to me before. There has been themes where I have no interest in,
    15:29
    and then I play. I watched Jaws with my grandfather, but I wasn't, when Jaws came out, I was like, meh. Like, I really was that way. I was like, eh, it's Jaws. And even the trailer, I was a little bit underwhelmed, and I bought it, and I freaking loved it. I love Jaws. Do you have a premium LE? I have a premium, and I have, like, LE'd it, basically. I put the LE, like, yeah, I did as much as I could, but I love that game. But the thing is, that was one where I, like, went against my own rule of, like, I got to like the theme, the theme's got to speak to me,
    16:00
    and I went against it. But I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how Avatar is perceived at Expo. Is it going to be really hot? Yeah, it's going to be a big deal. I believe it's going to totally be a big deal. Because with Elton John, nobody around here was excited about Elton John. I wasn't. Yeah, Rachel doesn't like Elton John. I'm an Elton John fan. I've seen him in live twice. I was excited about it. But no, this is a punk bar, right? You know, that's the vibe. Yeah, like this bar does not put off the Elton John vibes.
    16:33
    Right, right. But when it came in and people started playing it, and they started rocking to the tunes, because it's all the stuff you've heard on the radio. Yeah, it's all the popular songs. And people that hate Elton John really got into the game. Yeah, so I think this is a case where the title is not going to make a huge difference to this. This is just such a very cool game to shoot and a beautiful game.
    17:03
    I've never seen either movie, and I couldn't stop playing it. So do you think that the reason... You think it'll... Well, Expo's probably a bad example, because anything that's new, people are going to gravitate toward it. There's going to be lines for this thing. But do you think that... By the way, Jersey Jack, if you do watch this, they need to bring more games. Last year, they didn't bring enough Eltons, so you were waiting for so long. There were like three of them, right? Only like three, yeah. It took forever to play it. Hopefully there'll be more. I know there were four copies at the warehouse or the facility that we played.
    17:38
    So they at least have those. Yeah. So I'm hoping they'll have more than four. Yeah. But I was going to say, so you think you guys will get it for the... We are getting it. Oh, cool. Okay. But Game Room Goodies is going to operate it. Okay. All right. And the reason... That's probably... So Aaron at Game Room Goodies probably wants one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are going to operate it. And just the reason is with the past two titles, we just...
    18:09
    It's not earning enough to justify the cost. It's just not earning enough. You know, we can very quickly pay off a stern. Like people just pump quarters into those things. Jersey Jack, as good as the games are, they don't have any kind of long tail. They don't have the staying power that some of the other games do. Yeah, it's like three months at the top of the list and just slam. There's nothing. So for those of you that are listening to this and you have not listened to the Batcast, which is Electric Bat's podcast, what I find fascinating about the podcast is
    18:43
    you guys are players but you're operators and you are business owners and you talk a lot about how these games perform and you even share the revenue. who's number one through, I think you do 10 usually. But I find that fascinating because what might be popular at home isn't necessarily always popular. And you have to think about, can I pay this off? Like, I'm not going to go buy a game for 15 grand that makes six and I never make money as a business. That would be a bad decision. Yeah, just Jersey Jacks do not own anywhere close to what Stearns do.
    19:18
    And, you know, I brought that up in the meeting with the whole crew, with the Jersey Jack crew. Because you were really the only bar owner that came, right? I think I was the only operator there, yeah. But, you know, after I mentioned that, one of the people on the media side was like, he was in disbelief. He was like, how do Jersey Deck machines not earn? And I was like, they just don't. He's like, well, my home bar has them and they earn incredibly well.
    19:52
    and I know the owner of his home bar and I was like are you sure about that yeah I was like I would love to see numbers I need to put that meme in here the what is that what he says is he sure about that yeah right right no I would love that because I love that show um so he messaged the bar owner which I know and it's one of the most popular arcades in California and he verified it he said the only Jersey Jack he has that has paid off is Waz because it's wow okay it's been there for eight years yeah yeah but they it's unfortunate they just if they had do you think that i'm curious
    20:28
    did your conversation ever go down the path of like why don't you guys make a pro version whatever they would call it a pro version of your game that's maybe a little scale back you know it it did so when i when i asked that question you know and i and i said uh you know just to preface you know there might probably some people in the room that don't know who i am and i said my wife and i run the uh a very popular arcade one of the most popular ones in the nation we house the largest
    20:59
    single location pinball league in the entire world and i lose money if i buy a jersey jack machine and that's when jack uh the owner yeah okay he he uh he chimed in and said uh okay well let me give you my personal number 1-800-JERSEY-JACK and I'll teach you how to operate pinball machines personally and and if that was a joke it felt kind of flat yeah that actually was really oh I don't
    21:30
    think he I don't I don't think he knew who I was that's so weird to me that is very weird to me to be in the hobby and not know like not know the brand electric bat like know the name electric bat and people in on the media side of it were like that's kind of disrespectful to not know who you're talking to. It is disrespectful. Especially because you were invited to their house. Right, right. And like, and it was, you know, I was just kind of like, man, if this is how little they think of me, you know, I pump their game. You know, I rave about Godfather.
    22:02
    I rave about Elton John. It's like, you know, hey, kid, give me a call and I'll teach you how to make money with pinball machines. You know, I have spreadsheets to prove, you know, what I can do. but anyway it kind of like soured the whole deal and I was like you know what I wouldn't have liked that either but I wanted to ask you so just to close off on this I guess well two questions did the game actually shoot well because I did notice something I wanted to bring up when I was watching people because you know the other influencers had posted videos
    22:34
    so I was watching as much as I could of people playing it seems like either the game is easy or the people that were playing were really good because they were playing for a really long time And I like is it It depended on who was playing And there were games I had that were very short And I think I had one of the longest games out of anybody when I put up that $3.7 billion. You slide that in there. But no insider connected, so no one ever knows it happened. Right, right. It never happened.
    23:04
    And I didn't even play my extra ball. So, yeah. And it does seem that way with Jersey Jack machines. It's either feast or famine. Yeah. Yeah, so I think, you know, this is the same company releasing this game, so I think you're going to have that same kind of feel. But that being said, balls were easily savable by a skilled player. A skilled person can have a long game on this thing. And it shot, you felt like it shot well.
    23:34
    Man, it was cool. It had very, very interesting shots. Awesome. Yeah, yeah. All right. Anything else on the, I mean, you got a chance to hang out with some people maybe for the first time that you never hung out with? Oh, for sure. Was that fun? Yeah, yeah. All the designers, all the mechanical engineers, they were all absolutely great. And, of course, the media side of it, that's the most fun, you know, hanging out with Kaneda. I got to meet Kaneda. Yeah. He's apparently a nice guy, so, see? He was very nice and fun to hang out with.
    24:06
    But after this whole thing, we went to Interium, and they had a private party, and they put Avatar on the floor for the first time. And one of the coolest parts about it, I'm sitting there with Kaneda. Jack Danger showed up. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, Mark Seiden, who did Avatar. And Colin was there. And so I'm just sitting there, and I think I'm the only one that's sober that doesn't drink. And so Kaneda's trying to give me shots. I'm like, no, no, I don't drink.
    24:37
    But it was the best thing just sitting there because it was like I was on a live Kaneda podcast because he's just interviewing these two designers. Yeah, but he wasn't for – that's just how he was. It wasn't like he was actually doing it. No, just chatting. And it was very cool. It was a very cool experience. He's a good guy. That is cool. I do also think it's interesting because I was listening to George. we talked about it off the air but that interview that he did with Kaneda what was interesting is they talked
    25:09
    briefly about sort of the culture of the old days like the Bally Williams days versus now and where these teams of designers were ultra competitive would hide things they were working on where now you're talking about two designers from two different companies just hanging out and having a good time and I don't think in the past that would have happened And so we've changed a lot in how these teams operate in the company and even outside of the company. Yeah, for sure. It's pretty cool. And Jack was playing Avatar and telling Mark what a good job he did.
    25:39
    And they were stoked. There's some mutual respect. Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. That's cool. So I was going to, unless there's anything else, I think we should pivot over to X-Men. Let's move. Let's do it. So, dude, I know I'm going to seem way more excited. And you should be. But when the X-Men trailer came out, I was like, what the F? Goosebumps. Look at it. It was so good. It was so good, dude. And I texted you. I'm like, I think I just said like bro or whatever. I didn't even, I was like, I think I might have said something else. But I was like, this is epic.
    26:09
    Yes. And then, of course, Aaron at Game Room Goodies is the guy I get my games from. And I know the bat gets their games from there. But I'm like, Aaron, what do you think? He's like, dude, like I got to get this game. So there was all this hype, right? Right. Then, and I'm giving you my opinion. This is how I viewed it. Let me hear it. Then the live stream happened. And it felt weird for me because the hype kind of was like leaving my body. And it wasn't because the shots weren't good and stuff. It just seemed like, from my impression, it seemed like maybe they rushed to do the live stream
    26:43
    and there was some stuff that wasn't really ready. And then also they all had costumes on, so they can't play the best they could play. So I was kind of bummed. I wasn't one of those people that jumped on a forum and was like, I'm canceling my order. Because I have faith that the team behind it is good. And actually, toward the end of that stream, there was a little bit more of a rhythm going. And I can't remember the guy that was the tester for the game, but he probably put up the best game of that live stream. I didn't see the live stream. He put up the best game, and then I was like, oh, damn.
    27:15
    But it's weird, too. I don't know if you can, because of the way that play field's got so many things, you have the sentinel hands and the head. um having the camera top down which is kind of how you sort of have to capture pinball in the live stream i think maybe had they like tilted the camera a little bit right it was hard to get the perspective um but of course i'm still buying it i'm still hyped about it but you got to play it let me make you feel better bring me back yeah bring me back and you know it'd be cool like you
    27:45
    know when jack danger does streams in his studio he has that the kind of uh belt buckle cam yeah Right. Yeah, yeah. That's probably what we needed. That would have been cool, yeah. You know, he doesn't produce the stream at Stern. They have a team. Yeah, they do their own. Yeah, they have a team that does that. He did mention that. He's like, this isn't a dead flip stream, you know, a couple times. More because he was trying to, like, you saw his outfit, right? Yeah, yeah. So let me take you back. So I'm at Jersey Jack. I've been playing Avatar all day long.
    28:15
    Great game. then you know I'm in the lobby and I take off and I go I go to Stern and all the media people are still at Jersey Jack they so so so I go over there I sneak in through a side door well of course I had a buddy meet me in the parking lot yeah and so now I'm just walking through Stern I go to the there's an arcade in there very cool you've been there yeah yeah you've seen Yeah.
    28:45
    Like, yeah. Like the... So has that changed? The bar? No, it's the same thing. Okay. But where the John Wicks were, now there was an X-Men LE and an X-Men Pro. Okay. All right. So, super excited. Gomez was there, Wason, and Jack. Okay. And so I'm like, okay, I'm going to play. First one I played was the Pro. and I'll tell you after playing Avatar all day long
    29:16
    some people say they don't notice this I 100% do and I know a lot of other people that do, the flipper feel as soon as I plunged this ball on X-Men and felt these stern flippers I was like, I'm home again there's no lag you have full power it feels so good and I know there are a lot of people online and they're thinking they will not be able to get used to the offset flippers, when you're playing, you don't even notice it at all.
    29:47
    And it's not something you have to force your brain to think about. It's just, let's go. And it's the same. I mean, I saw someone posted it before I came here. I saw it on my phone. There were people that were saying they thought the flipper gap was more than standard. It's a standard flipper gap. It just looks weird. I don't know, maybe just the way it looks. Your eyes are playing tricks on you. I mean, it's all CAD. They know exactly where it is to the smallest measurement. Another thing, I've heard a lot of people say that they think it's going to be a drain monster. I think that's from that stream. It was from the live stream.
    30:17
    So in the live stream in the beginning, it just wasn't good. And if you're someone that's not the best player and you're seeing Zach Sharp drain, you're like, what's that going to mean for me? But it was more, I think, he had these big-ass hands and he's trying to... And Jack even said they were goofing off and having a good time. and excited about the game release, and weren't concentrated. They were more concentrated on a production than actually playing the game. Yeah, so it is not a drain monster at all. You have plenty of time to save these balls.
    30:48
    I was having long ball times. Oh, good. And the best part is, when the ball goes into that danger room, it is very easily savable. I didn't lose a ball in there one time. Oh, nice. All right. You can trap up on that tiny flipper very easily. Oh, no way. Okay. And pick your shot. Oh, cool. That's cool, actually. Right. I don't think they really showcased that. It looked, in the trailer, they make it look like it's super chaotic. Yeah. Like, almost like, you wouldn't have got that from the trailer. So, that's cool to know. Good, good. Yeah.
    31:18
    So, but, I wasn't even, and this was, I was on prototype code and animation. Yeah. But I was not even looking at the display. This game, it is so. It pulled you in. It is so great to see something so different from Stern. I was just hitting shots over and over again for no reason, shots that weren't even lit, because it was so cool. This shot that would do a figure eight, and I was like, oh, I'm doing that again, and I'm doing it again. It was so refreshing to see something so different.
    31:50
    I feel like that's what... If you look at the last couple of Stern releases, I don't want to say they were safe, but they were more traditional. I mean, John Wick is, I would almost call it a safe game. I mean, as far as I put it, but the shots were actually kind of hard for a lot of people. But I think that's what excited me the most. When the trailer dropped, I was like, wow, this is kind of, what's kind of cool is, like, I think people believe that Stern, being this large company, isn't going to take a risk anymore. And Gomez did say in an interview, he was like, look, we can't take risks all the time.
    32:22
    We wouldn't be able to do that. But this was one where it's like, we felt like this is a good risk to take. And I'm glad they did because I kind of feel like that's what excited me the most is how unique it looked. And then having, like, the sentinel hand break the ramp. You got the danger room. And then that wild shot that I don't actually – I haven't been able to follow it. Like, you shoot somewhere, and it kind of goes back around into that danger room, right? Yes. So there's a shot to the left you hit, and the ball comes, like, across –
    32:53
    It's not an orbit. across a habit trail and then comes behind you. So that's a weird feeling. All of a sudden your ball is behind the flippers. And that's how you feed the danger room. So it kind of comes... It's kind of like Star Wars. The premium. It's kind of like that. And it comes behind you and then the momentum takes it into that. Yes. The danger room. And this is very cool. If for some reason... This never happened when I was playing. But if the ball does not have enough momentum, there's a little break in the habit trail right in between the flippers, and there's a post there.
    33:31
    So if the ball doesn't have enough inertia, it'll stop there, hit the post, and pop up above your flippers. Oh, no way. I did not see that. Yeah, it's very cool. That is cool. You know what is a little bit stressful for me, honestly, about that game? And I haven't played it yet. I'm a little stressed out about the, I don't even know what you call it, I guess it's just like the post they put in the middle. When I play it, I haven't, there's some things in pinball I definitely haven't perfected the skill of, and one of those things is like, I've gotten a little bit better about being patient.
    34:05
    Like understanding that like look the ball gonna hit off the slipper and I know it gonna bounce Like I understand that and I understand that and I not going to just play frantically But a post but being able to integrate that into the play for me I'm actually excited about it because I think it's going to be a new skill. Right. But how did you leverage the post when you played it? Did you feel like you needed to leverage it much? Well, I was, you know, I didn't have like all day to play this thing, so I didn't even think about it. And I'm used to playing games with center posts. Yeah, you guys have. And, you know, yeah. You have a ghost, you have a ghost buster, right? Yeah. Yeah, but we don't have a center post on ours.
    34:37
    Okay, that was a mod I forgot. Ours is a hard mode. Yours would be hard, yeah. So I didn't even think about it. I didn't try to get any saves off of the post. But, you know, it's cool that it's there, and I think you're going to dig it. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well, I'm excited. I, like, can't wait. When do you think you guys are going to get it? Probably. It's probably going to be late, right? Probably right at three weeks. Because I think they're doing the LEs now, and those are going to ship first. And then they're going to do the pros. Yeah, we'll be over there as soon as you get it.
    35:08
    I know. That's what he said right away. He's like, so, you know, Rachel and I, it's like open invite to come over. I'm like, heck yeah, man, come over. And we'll have Avatar here in just a middle over a week. It already shipped from the factory. So I'll be able to play it before X-Men. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, absolutely. Do you guys think, will you incorporate it into tournament play right away? Or will it be one that... Um, we probably will. Yeah. Because when we, we all played it, I mean, there were good players playing it at the factory, and it seemed very stable.
    35:42
    Yeah. But you guys do have to be conscious of, and I know, I know, I heard on an episode you were talking about it. Like, you're very well thought out on when you, when you group games into arenas, like, that you're not putting, like, longer, you know, you can't have too many of the longer ball games as part of that. The same round. Yeah. Right, right. We'll do one round with long playing games, and then the next round with shorter playing games and alternate. I would put this initially in a longer playing game, a longer playing round, and then just see how it all ends up.
    36:12
    Did anything surprise you about X-Men? Was there anything about it that you were like, oh, wow, I didn't think this or that? The whole thing surprised me. When you play it, you're going to be surprised. You're going to feel, I mean, these shots, there's nothing like it. The danger room is so cool. Do you think that it's going to make, do you think it's going to shock people at Expo like, wow? Because it is very different. I mean, it's a pretty far departure from like the last three or four games. I think it's going to shock everybody everywhere.
    36:42
    Yeah, because it's just so wildly different. I mean, having that whole area, no left out lane, like a whole other play field. Yeah. All right, so this is no, I did not ask him beforehand. So like a kale prediction. And this isn't big till like, because I know, you know, whatever. At Expo, which one do you think will be like the hit of Expo? Because they both draw a lot of people, obviously. X-Men. You think so? Yeah, 100%. Really? Okay. Yeah. Because you, nothing against Mark Seiden, great guy.
    37:15
    But Jack Danger is just so popular and loved in this industry. And that makes a huge, huge difference. Yeah. I'm so excited to see it you know another thing too is I think they'll probably you know unfortunately economies of scale or whatever you want to call it I know Stern will probably have a lot more of their X-Men games so I hope Jersey Jack does bring more because I kind of want to the problem I have with shows is that sometimes you just can't get enough time on it you know to really leave there going I love it you know that's how I felt
    37:46
    about Labyrinth last year I was about to bring that up like the line I've never seen anything like it but they only had like what three games yeah they only had many of them And also, I think you're going to see all of the manufacturers outdo anything that's happened before. Because this is such a special expo. You're going to see more games. You're going to see more of whatever they're doing. Lights. It's going to be something special. I think, yeah. So if you guys, if you're listening to this or watching it on YouTube,
    38:16
    and if you're really into pinball or you're just getting into it, I haven't been to every pinball expo there is. You know, I know people like Texas Pinball Festival. Some people like that one out in Allentown. Oh, yeah, so cool. So they're favorites. But the thing is, being in Chicago, in the heart of all of it, I just feel like there's something special about that. And there's always people from the manufacturers walking around. And they always want to talk to you. Like last year, I was really, you know, even though I know I'm in a little bit of a group on my own on this,
    38:48
    I was really excited about Venom. I enjoy Venom. And I know there are people that don't because it's a fan layout, and some people just feel like that's maybe something that they've done too much. But when I talked to Brian Eddy, he was so stoked to hear about my feedback on his game. And there's tons of people going to be walking around like that. If you like John Wick, Elliot Eisman will be there. You can go talk to him. Or if you like Foo Fighters, Jack will be there. So that was the thing. I think that's the thing that really got me about Expo. That community is all there. The players, the designers, the artists.
    39:21
    So it's kind of like the best place to be. It's like if you're in the basketball and you go to a convention and Michael Jordan wants to talk to you. I mean, these are, you know, you can go hang out with Keith Elwin, Jack, you know, all the boys. Yeah, and that's a very special thing. How do I leave him out? Yeah, Elwin. Sorry. Seriously, like, wow. Wason. You can't leave out Wason. Yeah, I'm excited for this year. So, yeah, anything else before we close it out? Anything you want to talk about? Anything going on in the bat?
    39:51
    Uh, we, I tell you what, uh, check out, we, uh, Rachel and I just recorded a, uh, electric back cast. Okay. And I'm going to drop that sometime tonight. I don't know when you're going to drop this thing. So you, so we, we need to talk about that because I'll probably want this to come out after that. So if you're going to do it tonight, then I'll have this come out. No, no. Do your, do your thing. Do whatever you want. All right. Yeah. I want this, I want this out as quick as possible because people need to hear about these games. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not worried about drops or anything like that. Yeah.
    40:21
    Yeah, but there'll be some information in there about the 6th anniversary tournament we're having here. So it's going to be a big tournament. Okay. And they'll have dates and times and how you can sign up for that. And that'll all be in that podcast. Is that an official tournament then? Yeah. That'll be an official tournament? Okay, cool. Yeah, big-time IFPA tournament. All right, sweet. I'm now ranked. It's not very good, but I'm on there. Good deal. I'm on the board. You've got to keep going. I know. I really do. You know what's crazy? It's kind of a little addicting. It is. Because I'll check.
    40:52
    If the scores aren't updated, I'm like, what the hell? Why am I still 39,452? Right, right. People love that. I'm not very good at tournament play, though, Cale. The pressure gets to me. And what will really piss me off is I have fun. I have fun because the community is so cool. And then I go home and then I play and post the game. Let's say I played Godzilla in the tournament. I will biff it big time. And then I go home and play the best game I've played. It's a different kind of thing. It is night and day. I mean, being in a tournament and being able to perform well during competition, it's mental.
    41:26
    It totally is. It's all mental for me, 100% all mental. Anyway, so you guys got the anniversary coming up. You guys will be at Expo, so you can go up and go talk to Cale and Rachel. Rachel will be there with you. And then what else is going on? Oh, and then we might possibly get another new game at Expo, maybe? That's what I'm hearing. Yeah, I don't know what it is. How is that even happening? I don't know. How's that even possible? There's a game that's not even on the streets yet, and next month we're going to see another one.
    41:56
    I know, and who knows what Barrels of Fun and Spooky might do. They might show up with something, too. Maybe even American. Who knows? I don't know about that. It's going to be a very exciting expo. Actually, I've got to say, Cale, I was really nervous to film this with you today because I had a work event before this. It wasn't a work event. It was a work meeting. And it was at, this may be because you said American Pitbull, it was at a barbecue place. They didn't have the game, though. This must have been the one barbecue joint that they did not sell a barbecue game to.
    42:29
    You've played it. Yeah, we played it in Chicago. Yeah, yeah. But it was Lucille's in Tempe Marketplace. Oh, yeah. And the reason I was so nervous is because I don't eat like I used to. I'm trying to, like, watch. I'm trying to be good. And then I got you, like, you're like an MMA fighter now. So I got to, like, care about my health a little bit. Sure. and uh this guy i said i wanted the two meat thing and he said he only had the dinner so he throws his plate in front of me and there's dude it's like a mound of meat so i thought i'm gonna go in here meat sweats i'm gonna be all like 4 000 calories yeah yeah oh man but you made it easy
    43:00
    you look good thank you well thanks man this was so much fun i hope we get to do it again maybe we could do one at uh at expo be cool like i thought it'd be fun that'd be very cool at expo to put like a lot of people after the day. It's kind of like a breakdown of the day. I think that would be fun for people. That would be very good. Please bring it here. No, I totally will. All right, man. Well, that's it. Thank you, Ralph. I might hang out and play. It's at what? I got like two more hours. You probably have to do some stuff, don't you? You have to get some stuff ready. Yeah, we're having a small just for fun tournament here.
    43:31
    It's something our friend Chewy's been doing. It's called Chewy's Bats Night Out. He switches it up all the time with all kind of like weird components. It's not just like a straight, like, real competition. Well, like, there's a team play where you get three people. All right. And one person plays the first ball, one person plays the second ball, one person's your anchor and plays the third ball. Oh, that's pretty cool. There's that, and he does a split flipper tournament. Is that part of tonight, too, or not split tonight? No, tonight is team play. Tonight's just the team play. But, you know, I forgot to mention, you mentioned, like, learning when you're playing,
    44:03
    learning how to, like, relax. Yeah. One thing that Keith Elwin told me years ago, play with one hand. Okay. Just practice like that? Oh, you mean use one hand for both flips? Yes. Oh. It slows. All right. When you get home, do it because it slows things down, and you're not like constantly flipping and trying to be fast. And it's one skill he like turned me on to. Yeah. It's funny, Mark, who plays here a lot, and I think some of his games are here too,
    44:33
    he um it was funny i was asked i was i texted him i'm like man i was all bummed out after this one tournament like man i just suck i'm quitting the tournaments he's like he's like let me just look at how you play he's like i think maybe you might just play a little too frantic and i agree with him i do i tend to play a little too frantic so yeah so now i'll try the i'll try the one hand thing do it yeah all right we got to wrap it up only because me being italian i'll say goodbye to you like 55 times and this will be like a six hour live stream so all right thank you so much This was awesome. Thank you, Ralph. You're the man.
    45:04
    Check out Electric Bat if you're in Tempe. And then definitely go to Expo. It's only, what, less than a month away. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, we'll see you at Expo. And thanks for listening. Take care, guys. Thank you.