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Episode 211: Ian Gifford, pinball and Spinal Tap

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·22m 0s·analyzed·Jul 29, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.027

TL;DR

Ian Gifford and Jeff Teels discuss pinball history, music themes, and dream licensed games.

Summary

Jeff Teels interviews longtime friend and fellow pinball enthusiast Ian Gifford about their shared history playing pinball in the late 1980s-early 1990s at a 7-Eleven during college, their mutual love of Spinal Tap, and their evolution as pinball players. The conversation covers classic arcade games they played, music-themed pinball machines, code updates and their impact on game perception, and Ian's hopes for future licensed games like Spinal Tap, The Nightmare Before Christmas, and Rush albums. The episode emphasizes how pinball brings people together across different backgrounds and the community's current "pin privilege" of enjoying frequent code improvements.

Key Claims

  • Ian Gifford first played pinball at age six when his brother had the Tommy soundtrack and Pinball Wizard was influential

    high confidence · Ian Gifford speaking directly about his early pinball experience

  • The homebrew Spinal Tap pinball game is made from an old Flash Gordon machine and features 11 different modes and 11 different scenes

    high confidence · Jeff Teels describing the Spinal Tap homebrew machine, mentions seeing breakdown videos and witnessing it at Texas Pinball Festival and Chicago Expo

  • Deep Root is a new pinball company that started last year and is expected to release approximately 10 games

    medium confidence · Jeff Teels asking Ian about new company releases; Ian confirms Deep Root announcement coming later in the year

  • Guardians of the Galaxy had poor initial code but is now one of Ian's favorite games to play

    high confidence · Ian Gifford discussing games where code improved over time

  • Mark in City (homebrew builder) has created machines including a Wizard of Oz game and is still making it six years after it first came out

    high confidence · Jeff Teels describing his experience playing Mark in City's homebrew machines

Notable Quotes

  • “Pinball brings people together from all different walks of life.”

    Ian Gifford @ mid-episode — Captures the core community value proposition and Ian's philosophy about pinball's social role

  • “It's one louder, isn't it? It's not 10.”

    Spinal Tap reference (quoted by Jeff Teels at opening) @ opening — Sets up the episode theme around Spinal Tap and the '11' callback for Episode 211

  • “We have pin privilege. Can we call it pin privilege? Sure. It's where we have these games and we go, no, I don't like it. And then three weeks later, they drop a new code and it's like, oh yeah, I like this game now.”

    Jeff Teels and Ian Gifford @ mid-episode — Describes the modern pinball experience of code-driven game evolution, distinct from 1990s arcade era

  • “The number one thing for me is do I like the shots? I'm not even worried about the code.”

    Ian Gifford @ gameplay discussion — Articulates a core gameplay evaluation philosophy: shot quality trumps code quality

  • “Ghostbusters is a turd.”

    Ian Gifford @ game discussion — Strong opinion on a recent Stern release; notes potential for improvement with code updates

  • “I'd love to see Spinal Tap be a licensed game, not to take away from the fellow that made the homebrew.”

    Ian Gifford @ licensing discussion — Expresses interest in official Spinal Tap licensing while respecting existing homebrew work

  • “Could you imagine a 2112 pinball machine?”

    Ian Gifford @ licensing discussion — Suggests Rush as a desired IP, citing the narrative album concept's potential for pinball gameplay

Entities

Ian GiffordpersonJeff TeelspersonSpinal Tapentity[name withheld pending review]personTexas Pinball FestivaleventStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Long-form discussion of how pinball connected two friends across 30+ years and continues to bring people together across different backgrounds and walks of life

    high · Both speakers emphasize pinball's role in creating lasting friendships and community connections; Ian explicitly states 'pinball brings people together from all different walks of life'

  • ?

    code_update: Multiple games improved dramatically through code updates, changing player perception from negative to positive (Ghostbusters, Guardians of the Galaxy, Deadpool, Star Wars)

    high · Ian notes Ghostbusters could improve with new code; describes Guardians of the Galaxy as initially 'terrible code game' but now a favorite; Deadpool initially disliked but improved; emphasizes code updates are now routine industry practice

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball, a new manufacturer launched last year, is expected to release approximately 10 games

    medium · Jeff Teels asks about Deep Root announcements; Ian confirms they will reveal lineup 'later this year' with ~10 games expected

  • ?

    design_innovation: Mark in City's homebrew machines integrate newer home-based technology including large display screens and complex digital mode structures (11 modes/scenes in Spinal Tap machine)

    high · Jeff Teels witnessed the guts of Mark in City's machine and saw YouTube breakdown of integration techniques; describes large screen displays and 11-mode architecture

  • ?

    collector_signal: High-quality homebrew machines like Mark in City's Wizard of Oz have sustained production and play for 6+ years, indicating collector/enthusiast demand for custom builds alongside commercial products

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.066

0:00
It's very, very special because if you can see, the numbers all go to 11, right across the board. 11, 11, 11. And most of the amps go up to 10. Exactly. Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder? Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not 10. You see, most blokes are going to be playing at 10. You're on 10 here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up. You're on 10 on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where? I don't know. Nowhere, exactly. what we do is if we need that extra push over the cliff you know what we do? put it up to 11 why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number and make that a little louder these go to 11 it's time for another pinball profile I'm your host Jeff Teels you can find our group on Facebook we're also on Twitter at pinball profile email us pinballprofile at gmail.com and please subscribe on your favorite podcatcher. How did I get into pinball? Well, it goes back to the late 80s, the early 90s when you saw arcades. Well, they kind of disappeared, so there were laundromats. And I was lucky enough to have maybe one or two at work. And I worked at a 7-Eleven while I was going to college for being a radio broadcaster. And I met a friend now for almost 30 years who is also still into pinball and, like myself, just got back into it. And I had to bring him on this episode because we are both massive Spinal Tap fans, and this is episode 211, or as they say in Spinal Tap, this one goes to 11. Ian Gifford joins us right now. Ian, how are you, buddy? Good, Red. How are you doing, pal? We go back a long, long way, and yes, those good old days, the night shifts at 7-11. We weren't playing pinball during the shifts, but guaranteed before the shift and after the shift, we were certainly banging away, weren't we? Well, I think there was the occasional going on break game, right? I did the air quotes around my head there. We're far removed from that now. Babb, our old manager, she's still working for 7-Eleven, but I don't think she can discipline us at this point. Those are some good times. I mean, we certainly had a lot of laughs, and at one point I think we even got to make the shifts, and funny enough, you and I would somehow work together quite a bit. Yeah, well, we did, and that was fun. And I credit you for being one of the first guys that showed me some of the different tricks in pinball when we were there. And I remember there was mornings we'd do a midnight shift, and there was mornings you and I would stay there for a whole extra hour just playing pinball. And we'd be back, totally tired, but we'd stay and play because, you know, more often than not, they'd have two good games. So you'd be playing the one game, I'd be playing the other. Or we'd just play head-to-head games on the different ones. I remember some of the games for sure. definitely the old Simpsons Daddies. Please, please, please, please. That game was, I love the Simpsons, but the game itself was annoying. Adam's Family was one we certainly enjoyed as well. What were some of your favorites? Well, I really liked Terminator 2 when it came out. They didn't put a lot of older games in there. They always just seemed to have the current stuff. So they did put Haunted House in there for a while, but then we had games like Whirlwind and F-14 Tomcat and Earthshaker, which were all great games. They are all still great games when you can find them play them. And I think the cool thing for us, Jeff, was that at that time, the games were just starting to, the first word that comes to his mind is metamorphosized. Pinball games started to change because of all the digital technology. So we got to see the first games that actually had like video modes and multiballs, right? And even going back to the solid state, just to actually having modes, like you mentioned a whirlwind, I'm like, oh, you know, what happens when you go in the cellar there? So yeah, that evolution definitely changed from certainly the EM days. Right, and that led us into games we have now, like some of the Stern machines that have been continuing to come out for the last decade while nobody was producing anything, right? And so you and I got to see that transition from the EM into the solid state into the more digital games, and I think we were really lucky in that respect. There were so many good times at that, and certainly pinball comes to mind, but, I mean, at that time I was just getting into radio. In fact, I just started doing open nights stand-up comedy, and you also did them as well. Well, yeah. Remember, you were nervous. You were nervous about going to do stand-up. I said, listen, you've got to do it. You've got the jokes. If you do it this week, I'll go and do it in three weeks. And you said, no way. I said, I will. I will do it. So on the bet, you know, because not really a bet, sort of a dare, you went and did comedy, and I went and saw you, and it was great. It was really funny. Then I went and did it, and you actually made me a tape of it, which I still have, which I think I'm probably going to burn. You know what? It's a lot of nervous energy up there at first, and I always tell comics, you know, the most important joke is the first one. You've got to win them over very quickly. And then maybe your second most important joke is the last one. Leave them with a good, lasting impression. Hopefully the stuff in the middle is all right. And again, being confident really is something that helps a lot, but how do you just get confident? What was that old line in The Simpsons? Troy McClure, you know me from self-help groups. Like, get confident, stupid.
American Pinball
company
Deep Root Pinballcompany
Julie Dorstersperson
Harry Shearerperson
Ed Robertsonperson
Dwight Sullivanperson
Pinball Profileorganization
Speed Cityvenue
Julian Belangerperson
Jeff Burrowsperson
The Tea Partyentity
CME Tournamentevent

high · Jeff Teels mentions Wizard of Oz still being made six years after initial release; Mark in City's machines regularly featured at major expos (TPF, Chicago Expo)

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Both speakers express strong interest in music-IP licensing (Spinal Tap, Rush, Barenaked Ladies) and note successful precedents (Iron Maiden, Metallica, Kiss machines)

    high · Ian requests Spinal Tap license, Rush albums (2112, Caress of Steel, Fly By Night), suggests Mark in City's Nightmare Before Christmas get licensed; notes Iron Maiden game succeeded despite being niche appeal

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Shot design is prioritized above code quality by experienced players; gameplay mechanic appeal can overcome initial poor code implementation

    high · Ian states 'the number one thing for me is do I like the shots? I'm not even worried about the code'; uses multiple examples (Guardians, Deadpool) where shot design quality sustained player interest despite poor initial code

  • $

    market_signal: Modern pinball players expect and receive frequent code updates (within weeks), fundamentally changing game experience and replay value compared to 1990s arcade era where games were static

    high · Jeff and Ian discuss 'pin privilege' explicitly—playing a game, disliking it, then 3 weeks later enjoying completely different version due to code update; contrast to their 7-Eleven youth when games 'are what they are'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Monday Night Pinball League operates weekly at Speed City in London, Ontario; recently relocated from Call the Office; operates as social/casual competitive format distinct from longer tournament league structures

    high · Julie Dorsters runs Monday Night League at Speed City; described as 'lot of fun' and 'great social event'; Ian plays regularly; contrasted with Saturday London League which runs every 3-4 weeks

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Stern Pro Circuit co-hosted by Jeff Teels in March Chicago; attracts entertainment industry guests (Ed Robertson/Barenaked Ladies); represents integration of pinball into broader entertainment and media spheres

    high · Jeff Teels mentions co-hosting Stern Pro Circuit in March Chicago where he sat with Ed Robertson; discusses potential Barenaked Ladies licensing based on that interaction

  • ?

    historical_signal: First-hand account of arcade gaming transition from EM to solid state to digital era (1980s-1990s); witnesses early video mode and multiball integration in commercial pinball

    high · Ian and Jeff discuss playing Haunted House, Whirlwind, F-14 Tomcat, Earthshaker, Simpsons, Terminator 2 at 7-Eleven; explicitly note transition from EM games to solid state to digital; Ian calls this 'metamorphosized' evolution

  • ?

    content_signal: Pinball Profile podcast reaches industry decision-makers (manufacturers mentioned as 'listening'); Jeff Teels' podcast platform used to communicate player preferences and licensing wishes to industry leaders

    medium · Jeff directly addresses 'Jersey Jacks, Stern, American, everybody's listening' to Ian's game preferences; establishes podcast as forum for player feedback to manufacturers

    • 5:20
    Oh, yeah. And The Simpsons, man. You know, you and I had a connection with that. So it was ideal for us when that game came out because we played the crap out of that game Even though it wasn the greatest game but we know that now At that time it was one of the greatest games For sure. So, you know, it's really neat that you and I connected through pinball back then in the early 90s. And, you know, through music as well. And I remember you making me compilation tapes of the best Led Zeppelin songs and stuff like that. Well, think about this. You introduced me to so many different... We come from different backgrounds. It's funny how pinball... I always say this, pinball brings people together from all different walks of life. And when we go to something like Pinburg in a few days, we're going to be seeing people from all over the world, and we never would probably meet if it wasn't for pinball. Well, you and I happened to work together, but that bond was pinball, and then we found music and comedy and other things too. But it's really amazing. And you talk about the mixtapes like we were boyfriends or something like that. No, we just really wanted to show each other, hey, you know, like I'm into radio and I'm into it because I really like music. Here's what I listen to, and you gave me some stuff to this day. I mean, I think of Mind Bomb by The Thaw. I'm like, what is this? This is great. And some other things I had never heard before. Yeah, and that's great when you can make a connection with someone like that. And I mean, I was in radio as well, but I was originally supposed to go to school for radio, and I ended up going for audio engineering and production and stuff like that. So I've kept that connection to music and broadcasting and producing and stuff like that. And so you and I have always had that sort of connection. You're being very modest, too, Ian, because you've been a musician in London, Ontario here for many, many years, and not just drums, but singing, guitar, and you've done very, very well with that. Well, thanks, man. You know, I was just about to make a humble brag about the story you told me. I got to interview the Tea Party, and I did a review of their very first album that came out on the major label. And on their next album, you got to interview them as part of your student program at Fanshawe, and you told me that they still had my review as part of the press kit. And to that day, I'm really proud of that, that there was a time where my review of a Tea Party album was being distributed to other people in the media by the Tea Party. So that's my humble brag. Well, that band has become family friends with us now because of my late best friend. He was cousins with the drummer. Oh, Jeff Burrows. Jeff Burrows, the drummer, and my late friend Julian Belanger, who I miss to this day every single day. It's been five years now since, sadly, he took his own life. And every time I hear the Tea Party, it reminds me of my friendship. It reminds me of good times. It reminds me of time with you when I first found this band. And it's funny how music brings us together. Music is a big part of pinball, too. We see these incredible games come out. I mean, we both love music. What are the music pins that come to mind for you, Ian? The music pins. Well, the original ones, of course. Getting back to when I first started in pinball, the first game of pinball I played was like age of six. That was just when my brother had the soundtrack for Tommy, and so Pinball Wizard was the big one. So those games that connect me with music. One of the first games I got to play was Nugent, Ted Nugent game by Stern. I remember that from when I was a kid. And so, you know, even though Ted Nugent now is a bit of a dork. You think?
    8:50
    He's a whole lot of a dork. But, you know, it was a great game. It's a game I remember. But those games like Captain Fantastic that connect you to Elton John, right? And then the newer games, I really like Metallica. It's a great game. I really like Kiss. I really love Iron Maiden. like what an amazing game they really did a great job when you think that gameplay can't be innovated anymore because they've done everything stern came out and did uh iron maiden and i think they they hit the ball out of the park on that one it's a great game it's so much fun i'm not a fan of the aerosmith game what i'm not a fan of the aerosmith game you're allowed your opinion you're just wrong no that's it well well you and i have that too you know we have our different games that we don't enjoy or do enjoy. And I really enjoy the new Star Wars Stern. And you don't. No, I didn't. The last time you and I played, which was about a year ago, it was driving me nuts. I have really actually come around to it quite a bit. Have you? Yeah. Do you still feel the same way as I do about Ghostbusters? Ghostbusters is a turd. Listen, it's a beautiful, beautiful game to look at. Yeah. And I also reserve the right to change my mind once the new code comes out because right now it just does nothing for me. And Dwight Sullivan is a guy I love. This isn't a shot at Dwight, because it's really, it's actually more the game design. It's the air balls, it's the gap, it's being locked into modes, it's being... It's the damn Scaleri brothers. And they suck too. But I also believe there is great potential with that game, and I'm sure once that code comes out, I'll change my mind, certainly more to the positive side. Oh, and that's another thing for us these days, that we have pinball privilege. Can We call it pin privilege. Sure. It's where we have these games and, you know, we play them and go, no, I don't like it. And then three weeks later, they drop a new code and it's like, oh, yeah, I like this game now. And so we didn't have that back in the day when we were playing at 7-Eleven. You know, it was like the game is what it is. You like it or you lump it. So I'm glad that I've evolved with the machines. I love that there so many companies out making new games and they being really innovative and I got to play at Martin City house his homebrew right there before Christmas But he also let me play Wizard of Oz. Yeah. Wow! Yeah, that's a great game. What a game. And, you know, it takes you back to the original reasons why you loved playing pinball. The flash, the flair, the lights, you know, and all the fun of the gameplay. It's a really great game. That is a great game. and six years later after it first came out, they're still making it. Talking about games you like and games you don't like, the number one thing for me is do I like the shots? I'm not even worried about the code. Like Deadpool, when it first came out, I didn't like the code. I kind of liked the game a lot, and now that's a game that people love. Guardians of the Galaxy was a, let's just call it what it is, was a terrible code game when it first came out. It's certainly one of my favorites that I own, and maybe one of my favorites of all time. I love playing that. Played it for an hour last night. I just really enjoy that game. But it started off terrible, but the shots were amazing. You know, there's a lot of games that I haven't gotten to try yet. But, you know, I'm one of these guys that if I walk into a room and there's a pinball machine that's turned on and working, well, even if it's off, I'm going to ask, can I turn it on? I could be running late. I could have a bus full of people waiting for me in the parking lot or something like that. But I've got to play that game. And I've been like that since I was a kid. But you getting to go and tour and play all over the world, have you hit tournaments in Europe yet? Not in Europe. I'm going in October. I'm in the European Championships. I'm representing Team America, which reminds me of the Marionettes. That's great. That's good for you. And, you know, I get to live vicariously through you and listening to Pinball Profile and all these other podcasts by my friends like Albert Agar and stuff like that. Pinball nerds, yeah. Pinball nerds. I live vicariously through you guys when you get to tell me about all these other games. And I know that eventually I'll see them. I'm thinking of going to the CME tournament. I think it's in August. You have to do it. Yeah. You can stay at my place if you do it. All right. Well, that's a dealmaker right there. That's perfect. We'll talk more about that, I'm sure. Okay. No, it's a great tournament. That's coming up August 16th to 18th. Three classic events, a women's event, and a main event. $10,000 in guaranteed prize money. It's a one-time entry fee to get in the tournament, so it's not a pump and dump. It'll be a lot of fun. So, Ian, if you want, I'd love to have you there. And the reason I say that is because you play regularly on Monday nights. Julie Dorsters, who we all know and love, she runs the Monday Night Pinball League. It used to be at Call the Office. Now it's at Speed City. It's a lot of fun. It's a great social event. Mark in City, who you mentioned, he's one of the guys there. But I asked you, I said, well, why don't you play in the London League? They play on Saturdays, you know, every three, four weeks. And the league format doesn't interest you. You like the one-night hits. I like the one-night hits. But your opinion changes on certain games. So I'm starting to think, honestly, I haven't been playing at the Speed City Monday nights because I have a new job. I don't drive, right? So if the bus from the airport, I would never make the tournaments or the weekly tournaments. So I haven't been playing at those ones. I still go to Speed City and I'll play the games while I search for records and stuff like that. And so I play pretty much every week. Every other week I get to play games. But, yeah, I'm thinking because I want to have that connection and continue that connection to the game, considering maybe going into the league. But, you know, it was something. There's too many guys that are way better than me. I just felt. It's not about that, though. It's about having fun. And by osmosis, you actually do get better if that's something you can discern. That's true. Now, can I just say why I want you to come to League? It's really so I can get revenge on you. And I'm going to bring this story up because where we worked at 7-Eleven, this is almost 30 years ago. You know, we're young bucks, you know, and we were near a university. So there were a lot of attractive people that would come in, and we would be working behind the counter, and you would kind of duck down behind the counter, maybe getting some cigarettes or something like that, or at least that's what I thought. An attractive, in this case, an attractive woman would walk by after the counter, and you would proceed to let the biggest fart, as I'm the only guy standing there in their eyesight. Yeah, that was a revenge for something you did to me previously.
    15:11
    And I would be kicking you. I'm like, it wasn't me. There's a guy. It wasn't me. What I was actually doing was I was pretending to fix the printer that we needed. You remember the old dot matrix printer? Yeah, yeah. The feeder holes for the paper. For the movie rentals. For the movie rentals, yeah, yeah. So that's the thing, too, is that our memories change as we get older. And the thing I was getting revenge on was you would stand in the coolers and you would do characters from Kids in the Hall, and you'd be opening the doors of the cooler, totally out of sight, and there probably was some cute girl or something standing in front of me, and you'd go, hello, come in. Hello, it's the queen.
    15:55
    I'd be cracking up. I was just moving it behind the counter, man. Yeah, I probably deserve everything I get. We like to laugh, and we had a great laugh when we saw that, just as we mentioned at the top of this episode, we both love Spinal Tap, and we went to see Spinal Tap in concert. their Break Like the Wind Tour. That was so much fun. And, Ian, I've got to play the homebrew Spinal Tap game. It's made from an old Flash Gordon game. They take it almost every year to Texas Pinball Festival, and I think it was at Chicago Expo, too. It a lot of fun and some great call too And I saw the making of or not the making of but I saw they were doing a YouTube video of how the breakdown of how he did it And it just looks fantastic Now like I said I got to see the inside the guts of Mark and Cindy homebrew machine And so it was pretty fascinating to see how these guys are integrating newer, like home-based technology into their machines. But that one, it looks just fantastic and a lot of fun. and the big screen for all of the display in the games, and it's got 11 different modes and 11 different scenes and all that. And this one goes to 11. I had to say that. But, no, it just had so much fun. And I remember I was in Sarnia. I was visiting my folks. I saw that in Detroit, Final Tap was going to be going on tour. And so I was almost having a panic attack trying to get a hold of you. It turns out you were at work at the Sav. I called you at the Sav, and I said, Dude, I can go get tickets today for Spinal Pack. This is pre-internet. This is no Ticketmaster back in the day. This is lining up to get tickets and all that crap. I had to drive into Port Huron, Michigan, over the bridge from Sarnia to go and get tickets. And I think we got pretty darn good tickets, didn't we? Oh, my God. It was amazing. They're great seats. And we went to Pine Knob to see them. We got to the show, and it was two hours of the funniest but rockinest show I've ever seen in my life. I count it still as one of the greatest concerts that I've ever seen. And it was you and me and Jeff, wasn't it? Jeff Fryer, you're right. Yeah, it was a good one for sure. And I've seen them a few times. In fact, I got to interview Harry Shearer on the radio, who is an idol for me because The Simpsons is my all-time favorite show. He's in Spinal Tap. He was in Saturday Night Live. I mean, The Credibility Gap. He is an interesting man and just a talented voice actor, so I have a lot of respect for his talents. And I got to interview him once, and it just so happened to be, this is many years ago, 20 years ago, I was about to get married in Vegas to my first wife, and Spinal Tap was playing. And I didn't say anything. I'm like, oh, we're extending our honeymoon because now we're going to go to the House of Blues and watch Spinal Tap. And he hooked me up with free tickets. Amazing. It was so classy. So now I interview all the stars. I'm like, hey, yeah, I'm going to be there. No.
    18:43
    All right, Ian, you get to pick. All the Jersey Jacks, Stern, American, everybody's listening, Spooky, Deep Root, they're all listening to Ian Gifford right now. What game does Ian want made? You can pick any license. You know what? I was talking to someone about that. You know what? I'd love to see Spinal Tap be a licensed game, not to take away from the fellow that made the homebrew. I'd love to see Mark and City's game be The Nightmare Before Christmas. I'd love to see that get licensed. and if at all possible not altered too much from what Mark's done, because Mark made a brilliant game. There is one. Princess Bride? No, no. See, I've never been a fan of that. I'm thinking probably a music theme. I'd love to see maybe some of the early Rush albums depicted in a video game or something like that. So like Caress of Steel or Fly By Night or some of these Rush albums that had stories. Maybe even 2112. Could you imagine a 2112 pinball machine? There has been a lot of chat and a lot of hopes and wishes for a Rush machine. Rush is one of those bands you either love or you hate. There's really not a lot of middle ground. But you know what? They made an Iron Maiden game. And again, that's not everybody's cup of tea. But their fan base is extremely loyal. And if the game is good, you might bring more people into it. So that's my feeling about Rush as well. Your buddy from Toronto there would love if they made a Barenaked Ladies pinball machine. Ed Robertson, yes. Ed Robertson. And I think I dropped that to you in a text. You were sitting with Ed Robertson. You were co-hosting the Stern Pro Circuit. In March in Chicago, yeah. Right, and you were sitting with them, and I was hoping you would get a chance to ask them, you know, could you see there being a Barenaked Ladies game, and what kind of mode? Well, we've talked about, you know, maybe at the time when the show was on, Big Bang Theory might have made a good game, and he would certainly get on that way. Well, he is the voice of Black Knight, Sword of Rage. He's one of the characters on that. He does an amazing job. So he got on his pinball machine, so maybe that's where it ends. But who knows? You never know with all these different companies and, you know, clamoring to get some great title, some great license. We're going to see a lot of amazing pinball over the next few years, that's for sure. Aren't we supposed to see something like 10 games from that new company that just started last year? We will see what Deep Root has in store coming up later this year, yeah, for sure. Ian, I'm going to let you go because I know you have to leave. Thank you. It's always good to talk to you, and hope to see you at that C&E and playing some more pinball out and about. It's always fun to talk to you, bud. And we will be in touch. And, you know, I'd love to talk more pinball with you in the future. Maybe when it gets up to 12-11, we can say, this one goes to 11. Ian, there's a fine line between clever and stupid. I'll leave you with that. Rock and roll. Hello, Cleveland. All right, Ian. See you later, bud. See you, pal. This has been your pinball profile. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter, at Pinball Profile. Email us, pinballprofile, at gmail.com. And please subscribe on your favorite podcatcher. I'm Jeff Teolas.