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Ep 34: The Zack of All Trade with Zach Sharpe

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 22m·analyzed·May 1, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Stern's Zach Sharpe reflects on career, family legacy, market dynamics, and industry growth.

Summary

Zach Sharpe, Director of Marketing at Stern Pinball, discusses his career path from advertising to pinball, growing up around the Williams factory with his legendary father Roger Sharpe, his personal pinball collection, and Stern's approach to market positioning, code updates, and maintenance education. He reflects on the differences between Williams' decline in the 90s and Stern's current growth, attributes Stern's success to being privately owned and serving both commercial and consumer markets, and shares his perspective on perfect games (citing Jurassic Park and Cyclops) and the pinball industry's evolution.

Key Claims

  • Zach Sharpe has been at Stern for approximately three years (as of summer 2021 timeframe of interview)

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe stated: 'It will be three years, I want to say, this summer. Yeah, three years this July.'

  • Zach Sharpe owns eight pinball machines: Jumping Jack, Taxi, Walking Dead, Iron Maiden, Frontier, Cyclops, Sharpshooter, and Jurassic Park

    high confidence · Zach explicitly enumerated his collection: 'I own eight' and listed each game by name

  • Stern is privately owned while Williams was publicly traded, which affected business decisions differently

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe: 'Williams is a publicly traded company with shareholders. and Stern is privately owned.'

  • Roger Sharpe was listed in NBA Jam Tournament Edition and NFL Blitz under his initials and birthday as a playable character

    high confidence · Zach: 'Not only is he in an NBA Jam, it's tournament edition, not the original. So the second one, if you put in his initials and his birthday...You could also play as him in NFL Blitz.'

  • Zach and Josh Sharp first competed in pinball tournaments at ages 11-12 and 13-14 respectively

    high confidence · Zach: 'I believe I was 12 or 11 going on 12 when we competed in our first tournament. So I was 12 and Josh would have been 14.'

  • Stern holds tech service schools for operators at trade shows to teach maintenance and repair best practices

    high confidence · Zach: 'we've definitely held tech service schools...at those trade shows...we do hold those kind of classes'

  • Roger Sharpe and Josh Sharp initially prevented young Zach and Josh from competing at Pinball Expo, viewing competition as forbidden fruit

    high confidence · Zach recounts: 'Dad, can we go over there? No, no, Josh, Zach, those are other people playing. You guys can play over in the free play area.'

  • Zach and Josh served as contributing writers for Play Meter magazine reviewing coin-operated equipment before their current roles

Notable Quotes

  • “My father and Josh, they speak a lot, and I let them have their space. I think we're going to take the same approach. We're going to start referring people to better podcasts when they ask us for interviews, and then we'll come back.”

    Zach Sharpe @ early in interview — Shows Zach's humility and deference to his father and brother despite holding an important position at Stern

  • “I would say the best or biggest memory was having the best birthday parties. Because while most kids, you know, might go to Enchanted Castle or Chuck E. Cheese, I would take my friends to the Williams factory and we'd play games in the lunchroom”

    Zach Sharpe @ mid-interview — Illustrates childhood privilege and immersion in the pinball industry through access to Williams factory

  • “I was more of a video game fan growing up. Josh gravitated more towards pinball than I did...It wasn't until I got into the competitive realm that pinball really kind of hooked me.”

    Zach Sharpe @ mid-interview — Reveals that despite family legacy, Zach's passion for pinball came later, contrasting with Josh's early interest

  • “pinball is to Chicago as automobiles are to Detroit...There's just some inherent tribal knowledge that has just been passed generation to generation.”

    Zach Sharpe @ mid-interview — Explains the cultural and logistical advantages of Chicago-based pinball manufacturing

  • “I love the landscape of pinball today versus back then, because not only was it a different model...games were designed to produce. And essentially that was it...we're able to refine and revisit and sometimes even redesign a current game's rule set.”

    Zach Sharpe @ late-interview — Contrasts Williams-era commercial-only design with modern Stern's ability to update games via code, a key competitive advantage

  • “Jurassic Park and Cyclops are perfect games. And then, you know, there's a lot of others that can come close. But I mean, I mean, truly, I mean, a perfect game. I don't know if there's ever a 100 percent perfect game because I feel like everything can always be improved or modified”

    Zach Sharpe — Reflects on design philosophy while positioning Stern's recent releases highly

Entities

Zach SharpepersonStern PinballcompanyRoger SharpepersonJosh SharppersonWilliams Valley MidwaycompanyJurassic ParkgameCyclopsgame

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Zach emphasizes that Stern's ability to release code updates for existing games is a major competitive advantage over the Williams era when games could not be patched. He cites the example of addressing game-breaking bugs immediately rather than being stuck with them permanently.

    high · Zach: 'we're able to refine and revisit and sometimes even redesign a current game's rule set...if that happened today where, you know, wow, there's this game breaking bug on Jurassic Park. We can't use this game ever again because it's complete...nowadays it's like oh wow there's this game breaking bug next week there's a code update release'

  • ?

    business_signal: Zach articulates how Stern's private ownership shields it from shareholder pressure to abandon pinball for higher-margin products, contrasting Williams' publicly traded structure which prioritized slot machines over pinball for profitability.

    high · Zach: 'Williams is a publicly traded company with shareholders...if Stern was publicly traded and say that our shooter rods were the most profitable item, period...shareholders vote on saying, you know what, Stern, you should stop making pinball machines, only make shooter rods'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Zach neither confirms nor denies whether Stern intentionally includes hidden toppers and equipment in background photos/videos, but suggests if unintentional, they should keep doing it anyway as it generates media discussion.

    medium · Host asks about 'pictures of keith that one giving award and we see a certain topper in the background.' Zach responds: 'we can neither confirm nor deny.' Later Zach notes: 'if it's not intentional, it's certainly clever guerrilla marketing.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Zach argues that no game can be 100% perfect because everything can be improved or modified, but cites Jurassic Park and Cyclops as approaching perfection. This reflects a philosophy of incremental improvement enabled by software updates.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.248

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are on episode 34. With me, my co-captain as always, Scott Larson.
0:14
And we decided we would finish out this wonderful, sharp week with whom, my good man? Well, we finished out the trilogy strong, and today we have the Director of Marketing at Stern, Mr. Zach Sharp. How are you doing today, Zach?
0:32
Must be a pretty slow news day if you're trying to do the final sharp in the sharp trifecta, but I appreciate it. I'm doing okay.
0:41
Actually, we needed to build up because we needed to get the background, and now you are currently helping drive the market leader in pinball. And so it actually makes a good end piece so we can get your perspective on how things are now and where you see them in the future. You know what? That was a great answer. You know, I could also say, you know, it's kind of like the last dance, which I know Josh alluded to. But, you know, I just watched episodes three and four. So you can say this is the last dance of the Sharp podcast trilogy. So, you know, as long as it's not like a Highlander, there can only be one. I'm happy with your answer there. So let's go. Well, you shouldn't be so modest because we reached out before and you're like, you really should talk to my brother, Josh and my dad, Roger. And we're like, we feel too intimidated to talk to them because I mean, your dad's such a an amazing figure figure in the community and whatnot. And and, you know, Josh is awesome, too. And we're just we're like, are you sure? And you're like, yeah, hit them up first and we'll talk later. I'm like, not not many people that we meet in the podcasting realm. It's like, you know what? You should interview these people first.

high confidence · Zach: 'as a side job i was a contributing writer both josh and i for play meter magazine...we would review new equipment'

@ late-interview

  • “It's kind of like deep dish pizza and thin crust. I mean, I love them both...Lord of the Rings and Jurassic Park are two games that I love them both.”

    Zach Sharpe @ late-interview — Diplomatically addresses the Stern fandom divide between LOTR and Jurassic Park without declaring a clear winner

  • “I can neither confirm nor deny my approval or disapproval of that comment.”

    Zach Sharpe @ mid-interview — Professionally evasive response about intentional leak marketing tactics involving toppers and designer photos

    • Lord of the Rings
    game
    Keith Elwinperson
    Tim Sextonperson
    John Buscagliaperson
    Scott Danesiperson
    Taxigame
    Walking Deadgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Chicago Art Instituteorganization
    Iris Worldwidecompany
    Play Meter Magazinecompany
    IFPAorganization
    Pinball Expoevent
    Amusement Expoevent
    AMOA showevent
    Raw Thrillscompany
    Lou Malnati'sorganization
    Scott Larsonperson

    high · Zach: 'I don't know if there's ever a 100 percent perfect game because I feel like everything can always be improved or modified'

  • $

    market_signal: Zach identifies price as the primary barrier to entry for pinball as a luxury item, acknowledging economic challenges but not positioning it as Stern's primary concern currently.

    high · Zach: 'I wouldn't say that there's so much a barrier to entry. If anything, it could be price, regardless of which product we're talking about. Pinball is a luxury item'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Zach explains Chicago's inherent advantages in pinball manufacturing due to tribal knowledge and resources passed generation to generation, comparing it to Detroit's auto industry dominance.

    high · Zach: 'There a reason why there kind of the moniker you know pinball is to Chicago as automobiles are to Detroit. There's just some inherent tribal knowledge that has just been passed generation to generation.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Tim Sexton is highlighted as a designer with video game background brought into Stern, suggesting the company is actively recruiting outside perspective to influence game design.

    high · Host: 'you have an amazing collection of pinball talent in the Chicago area' and Zach confirms Tim Sexton's video game background is influencing pinball: 'I think it can only help...getting fresh ideas, fresh thinking, fresh perspectives'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Stern holds tech service schools at trade shows for operators. There is consideration for consumer-focused beginner maintenance content, but it's not yet confirmed as in development for the home collector market.

    medium · Zach: 'it's definitely been considered. And, you know, I don't want to say that it's not in the works...we've definitely held tech service schools...at those trade shows...if there's a way to package that and deliver it either to a different audience or just having a different area for that content to live'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Zach's competitive participation in pinball caused a sentiment shift from indifference as a child (preferring video games) to deep appreciation and passion for pinball as an adult.

    high · Zach: 'I was more of a video game fan growing up...It wasn't until I got into the competitive realm that pinball really kind of hooked me...that was when I kind of got hooked into the forums'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Zach provides perspective on why Williams' pinball division declined despite profitability: slot machines were simply more profitable, and shareholder pressure to maximize returns drove the decision to abandon pinball.

    high · Zach: 'it wasn't like pinball 2000 even failed. It was successful. It's just when you're comparing the profitability of a slot machine versus a pinball machine...from a shareholder perspective who has no ties to pinball specifically, hey, I want to make more money'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Zach identifies Roller Coaster Tycoon as his strongest game and would choose it four times if allowed in a hypothetical foursome tournament, suggesting specific mechanical/design elements suit his playstyle perfectly.

    medium · When asked to pick four games for a foursome tournament, Zach says: 'can i pick the same game four times over then i would say roller coaster tycoon...that game i just excel at better than i think anyone on anyone on the planet'

    • 1:49
    They do a lot better than I do. But you're a man over marketing of Stern. I doubt you'd be terrible with these things. I like actions speak louder than words. My father and Josh, they speak a lot, and I let them have their space.
    2:09
    I think we're going to take the same approach. We're going to start referring people to better podcasts when they ask us for interviews, and then we'll come back.
    2:17
    Oh, that's funny. We talk about head-to-head, they're not operating anymore, so. That's true, that's true.
    2:26
    Okay, so Zach, so first question, how much money is in the jar that's I'm Zach, not Josh? Oh God, I've lost count. Once I've eclipsed, you know, like $10,000, I just stopped tracking.
    2:44
    It's good. It's a good college fund for Benson. There you go. It's saving up for the next LE title, right? Yeah, exactly. So I wanted to start off. We did talk with your dad, and it was great because we brought a lot of information that I had no idea about from him taking the shot up until he actually joined Williams. I found it fascinating. There was about a 10-year gap where he was involved in pinball but more as a contract worker as opposed to directly involved. So I want to, you grew up when he was actually working at Williams Valley Midway.
    3:21
    Want to get your thoughts on growing up in that environment and what are some things that jumped out at your memories? I would say the best or biggest memory was having the best birthday parties. Because while most kids, you know, might go to Enchanted Castle or Chuck E. Cheese, I would take my friends to the Williams factory and we'd play games in the lunchroom as well as going to other places. So that was always the memory that stuck out most was being able to go to the factory as a kid, just not understanding the sheer scope and scale of what was happening.
    3:59
    What was your favorite game from back then? you know what i mean from from a williams perspective i could not even tell you just because they all kind of blended together but growing up um you know i love sharpshooter and cyclops but if there was one game that i gravitated more towards uh and maybe because it was in my bedroom it was uh jack in the box uh old gottlieb game so growing up did you feel like you know, this is what I need to do. This is I'm going to follow my father's footsteps. Or was it just kind of an awesome childhood? You didn't really pay much more attention to than that.
    4:37
    More of the latter. I would say, funny enough, and I know this sounds blasphemous. I was more of a video game fan growing up. Josh gravitated more towards pinball than I did. We were both into sports, but I played video games more than pinball. And it wasn't until I got into the competitive realm that pinball really kind of hooked me. Now, when did you start getting into that? Because Josh mentioned that your dad actually said, yeah, I'm not going to let you guys compete in that. And in some ways he viewed that as a forbidden fruit, almost a wet his appetite to actually, I want to do this. Yeah. So growing up, you know, there was pretty much only one show, Pinball Expo. So that would be like our one time a year where we would go. We'd get embarrassed because people would be asking our father for his autograph, which we thought was just insane. Like, why are people asking for his autograph? That's weird.
    5:39
    But we saw some kids playing in this roped off area and it's like, oh, what's going on over there? And there's trophies. Oh, well, they're winning trophies by playing pinball. Like, Dad, can we go over there? No, no, Josh, Zach, those are other people playing. You guys can play over in the free play area. And he kind of just kept deflecting, deflecting, deflecting. And, you know, this only happened once per year. And we just kept asking, like, we keep seeing kids winning these like giant teddy bears and these trophies. And, you know, we're pretty good at this. We play against our friends and we're constantly beating them at pinball. and Josh and I were both in karate so we were used to high level competition and you know getting trophies for performing under pressure but when it came to asking our father to compete on the pinball level he just kept deflecting and it took years I don't even know how many years it took like just begging and pleading to let us just please compete and I understand his perspective you know he holds pinball so dear to his heart. I'm sure he would hate to see his two sons have like a sibling rivalry, you know, falling out because we're both competing at pinball. But it was the complete opposite. Once he let us compete, if anything, it closed, closing Josh and I, our relationship, we became closer. So if anything, it helped that. And we happened to be pretty decent at it. and won a lot of stuffed animals.
    7:16
    So at what age did you actually start competing? I believe I was 12 or 11 going on 12 when we competed in our first tournament. So I was 12 and Josh would have been 14.
    7:32
    So you said that you liked video games more growing up. What was some of the games you gravitated towards?
    7:38
    I don't know if you've heard of this game called Mortal Kombat, at, but that was definitely one of our favorites and NBA Jam, NFL Blitz, a lot of sports games, RBI Baseball, if you want to go the old Nintendo route, Zelda, Mario Brothers, the classics, but definitely the sports games, sports and fighting games. So did you and Josh fight over who was going to be your dad in NBA Jam? You know what, Josh probably played as my dad more than I did. And I was always just, you know, let me get the bowls. Let's go.
    8:13
    Okay, wait, your dad's in an NBA Jam? I didn't know this. Yes. Not only is he in an NBA Jam, it's tournament edition, not the original. So the second one, if you put in his initials and his birthday, which I hate saying it's his birthday because then people might do the math and figure out how old he is. But you could also play as him in NFL Blitz. So that was a fun moment when I was a freshman in college, and me and my dorm suite mates were playing NFL Blitz for the first time, and I put in this code, and all of a sudden it's not only my dad's head, but I had put in the code for giant head mode. So it was a giant head of my dad playing NFL Blitz, and my roommates were like, what is going on here? It's like, that is my dad. Scott must not have been paying attention because your brother Josh gave out the code of how to pick out your dad on the episode we recorded with him. Okay, well, he said the code, but I didn't know what the code was, and I figured I didn't want to look stupid by saying I have no idea what you're talking about. Well, now you have to find an NBA Jam or NFL Blitz out there. I actually played a lot of NFL Blitz. I loved that game. It was great. It was so good. So you grow up, you end up going to college, and tell us about your thought process and your career path by going to college. Yeah, so my career path was definitely unique. So I almost went to an art school. I've kind of always been creative and artistic. I took a lot of AP art classes and had my portfolio all created. was meeting and talking to the Chicago Art Institute.
    10:01
    But there was something kind of not nagging at me, but kind of concerned that I didn't want to become a starving artist. And if I put all my eggs in the basket of trying to be an artist, I was afraid that I would, I don't want to say resent it, but if my whole livelihood and financial sanity was, you know, at the crux of doing artwork day in and day out, I was afraid I would not only get burned out by it, but just lose my passion overall. So not to follow in Josh's footsteps, but, you know, he went to our in-state school, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. And I just thought, well, you know, I could always just go to a big school, take as many classes as possible and see if there's something that might connect with me. So I went to the School of Business and took marketing, advertising, accounting, you name it, every class under the sun. I even took ice skating, which, by the way, was incredible. I loved ice skating, my favorite class by far. But it was advertising that really stood out because I saw it as a way of not only being creative, but kind of utilizing the creative part of my brain. So once I got into advertising, I was not looking back. I just wanted to do everything from an advertising perspective. And I lean more towards the copywriting side, just coming up with taglines and copy versus the design side. So after, you know, my stint at school, which included a semester studying abroad in Australia, which that was, if anything, drew me more into, not to go on a tangent. I sound like my father just going on these nice diatribes here.
    11:58
    No, I was in no rush to graduate. So I intentionally withheld a class I needed to graduate and studied abroad. So I went to Sydney, Australia for five months. And that was by far one of the coolest experiences of my life. But if anything, it made me love pinball even more because that was the longest I was away from it. And I never realized how much I loved it. And especially on the competition side, that was when Papa 7, it was the first time it came back, I missed it. So it was the first tournament I watched from afar and rooting on Josh. And I just wanted nothing more than to fly back and compete in that. So if anything, I grew to love pinball when I was out there. It was the first time I really started reading the forums. So there was no pin side, but there was our GP. That was the first I always made fun of Josh because he would always read that stuff. And I'm like, I have zero interest in any of that. And that was the first time I kind of got hooked into the forums. And, you know, I kind of never looked back.
    13:11
    So let me get back to what you're asking. So in college, never thought of pinball, loved advertising, graduated college and wanted to work in an ad agency at all costs. So I found a small agency outside of the Chicago area, and it was as an account coordinator, so not as a copywriter. So I thought, well, let me just get in there. I can maybe do some copywriting on the side. And that's where I kind of fell in love with more of the project management aspect and not on the copy side, because in school, you can have whatever clients you want. You know, oh, great. I can create this Budweiser campaign. This is fun versus the real world where it's like, hey, Zach, can you write this eight page diabetes brochure? Oh, that sounds fantastic. It felt more like homework than a creative outlet. But I like being kind of the head producer and overseeing projects from start to finish and working with clients. I kind of always had this analogy that an account manager is almost like a waiter at a restaurant where you're taking, I don't want to say orders from the client, but you're working with a creative team, which is the chefs. And you're trying to create this masterful dinner or lunch for the client. And I enjoyed delivering those delicious meals on time, on budget and exceeding expectations. so what what took you from doing these little these these little advertisement stuff and focused you more towards stern i mean obviously there's a there's a gap in between there oh yeah no there's a definite gap and this is a funny uh it was a long a long story in the making but um as a side job i was a contributing writer both josh and i for play meter magazine it was at the time the lead coin operated magazine and we were picking up the baton from our father from his critics corner column and it was called critics corner two and we would review new equipment so it was a fun way of just being connected to the coin op industry but not in a full employment capacity so we would the great thing about doing that article once a month was it allowed us to travel to the two big trade shows. So there was the Amusement Expo and the AMOA show. So it would be cool going to Vegas twice a year, even before I was 21, and playing all the new games, both video and pinball.
    15:57
    And we kept that going until almost... I know Josh had to retire when he started working for Raw Thrills, and it was kind of a conflict of interest. But, you know, I wasn't at Stern. So, I mean, I literally was writing for that magazine up until I got employed by Stern. But, you know, one of the first stops Josh and I would always make would be at the Stern booth at these trade shows. And, you know, we've known Gary forever and everyone else at the company. and I remember John Buscaglia asking me, he's our chief revenue officer and my boss and he was asking me, have you ever thought about working in pinball? And at the time, my mindset was completely different. I loved the agency I worked for. So in my mind, my goal was to get Stern as a client. I never thought of like having the light bulb moment of, oh, I can work inside Stern. It was more of how can I get Stern to be a client of ours? So when he asked me that at the time, you know, I was so happy with my job at Iris Worldwide, the agency I was at, that I kind of laughed him off. And not to be disrespectful, but I was just like, no, I'm good. But thank you. Like, I'm like, what can I get to, you know, get Stern as a client? And, you know, it kind of went nowhere. But he planted the seed at that trade show. And I was talking to Josh afterwards. I'm like, I don't know if he was being serious or not. And maybe I shouldn't have just laughed it off. I'm like, I kind of took stock that day and I planted the seed. I'm like, you know what? The next time he asked me that question, I'll be way more receptive to it. So fast forward, you know, four years later from when he asked me that. And I'm like, I'm interested. And the rest is history.
    17:49
    So how long have you been at CERN now? It will be three years, I want to say, this summer. Yeah, three years this July. So what has it been like working at Stern? Is it a lot different now that you're behind the curtain?
    18:07
    Not entirely different. Again, maybe just because, you know, not only did I grow up around the industry when my dad was at Williams, but even just knowing and being, you know, under an NDA with Stern since I was 16 years old, giving, you know, rules input and design ideas, you know, back in the day with Josh.
    18:30
    I would say nothing really shocked or surprised me. Really? Nothing? All right. Well, maybe not nothing. I would say until you're all right. I'll try to frame this better until you're really in the mix of things. And, you know, I'm not just talking about taking a factory tour, But just seeing everyone all throughout the factory doing the work, you know, it takes so many people to take these concepts from paper or computer and taking that and making something physical and tangible. So I would say, if anything, it just opened my eyes more to the process. You know, there's so many amazing people that, you know, I never came across when I was not with the company. And it just boggles my mind how it comes together. I know personally and maybe others we take for granted how easy it is just to flip on a switch press the start button and you know being instantly transported into whatever universe is in front of you but all of the work all the miles of wire everything that goes into creating these masterpieces you almost just take for granted so seeing how the sausage is made is it is cool and it never it gets old. Now, actually, I want to get into that a little bit. You've always been, you've always prided yourself, at least Stern has, at made in the USA, or at least, you know, domestic manufacturing, when a lot of things are being exported to different countries to assemble and everything like that. So talk about the challenges of trying to maintain that made in the USA a stamp of saying, yes, we're a local company, we work here, and there are advantages to do it this way, but there are also some challenges. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of outside my role of expertise, and I'm not in supply chain management. I think it certainly helps at least from the Chicago aspect that there so much tribal knowledge and resources for pinball creation I mean there a reason why there kind of the moniker you know pinball is to Chicago as automobiles are to Detroit There's just some inherent tribal knowledge that has just been passed generation to generation. Now, that's not to say that, you know, automobiles can't be produced outside of Detroit or pinball can't be produced outside of Chicago. But I'm sure there's advantages that I'm not even aware of and maybe even challenges. But there's a reason why there's so much happening in the lifeblood of Chicago stems from Chicago that, you know, predates, you know, even my father. so i i want to talk about a little bit of your your realm of what you do at stern um with the recent events of just some of the stuff and if you can't answer you know just tell me no but you know there's been like pictures of like keith that one giving award and we see a certain topper in the background or there's a conference call catch of a video of all the designers together and Dwight just happens to have something thrown over his shoulder. Are those intentional or is that something that just, you know, you guys went, well, whoops, it got passed and we call it good? Or how does that work?
    22:00
    This is where I'd like to just say, you know, we can neither confirm nor deny. Understandable. All right.
    22:09
    Isn't that better than just saying I plead the fifth? I mean, neither confirm nor deny, you know, it leaves it open to either or. You just don't know. Considering I'm not under an NDA because I really know nothing behind the scenes. One, I would suspect that if it's not intentional, it's certainly clever guerrilla marketing. So it makes us talk about it, at least in the pinball media. And I say that's a huge advantage. So if it's not intentional, I think you should keep doing it anyway.
    22:41
    Well, I can neither confirm nor deny my approval or disapproval of that comment. So thank you. Can you cut between the time when your dad was at Williams Valley? That was a golden age of pinball in the 90s, but it certainly didn't end on a high note. However, you're doing a very similar job now when aside from this recent quarantine thing, it actually felt like it was on this upswing and this growth. So why don't you define the difference between then and now and why is it on the ascendance now as opposed to the decline in the 90s?
    23:26
    Well, I am certainly no expert, but I'll do my best to give my perspective on things. First and foremost, I think it's apples and oranges just from a company perspective. Williams is a publicly traded company with shareholders. and Stern is privately owned. So it's kind of different because if Stern was publicly traded and say that our shooter rods were the most profitable item, period, it doesn't matter if we make a pinball machine, only the shooter rod is profitable. And the shareholders vote on saying, you know what, Stern, you should stop making pinball machines, only make shooter rods. I don't care where they go, just make shooter rods. like the landscape of Stern can completely change. And, you know, it's kind of no different than Williams. It wasn't that pinball wasn't profitable. And I know not to say the stories that everyone's heard a million times, you know, it wasn't like pinball 2000 even failed. It was successful. It's just when you're comparing the profitability of a slot machine versus a pinball machine, Hey, do you want to make a hundred dollars on your investment or $10 on your investment. It's like, you know, from a shareholder perspective who has no ties to pinball specifically, hey, I want to make more money. So you should do that. So it's kind of tough to compare. But on a personal selfish level, I love the landscape of pinball today versus back then, because not only was it a different model, I mean, back then And it was, I don't want to say completely driven, but mostly driven by the commercial market where, you know, games were designed to produce. And essentially that was it. You know, you would get your No Good Gophers, Terminator 2 on location. And that was the end of that game. That is what it is. And the one thing I love with just not only the improvement in technology, but just broadening the pinball market to the consumer market is we're able to refine and revisit and sometimes even redesign a current game's rule set. But Josh and I, selfishly, we always joke that, you know, there's so many good games from the 90s that we, you know, we just love to play. But, you know, due to software bugs, we just we can't use them in the events that we personally run for the IPA. And it's like if that happened today where, you know, wow, there's this game breaking bug on Jurassic Park. We can't use this game ever again because it's complete. you know nowadays it's like oh wow there's this game breaking bug next week there's a code update release you update the machine and everything is perfect so i think there's a lot of cool things now that just weren't possible back then yeah i've actually heard two stories one i heard one story where someone brought up that issue with lyman and when he went to a competition so he was actually coding like an update to fix that like before the competition so you know that's kind of an amazing yeah that's that's pretty amazing um however on the flip side as a marketer um there are amazing marketing potential for slot machines i mean i went through i was in vegas for a conference about two years ago and i walked through and i saw a sharknado and so i'm hoping that that actually crosses over and we get a Sharknado pinball machine coming out. Hey, you never know.
    27:08
    I know that you've got like Tim Sexton down there now and you saying that you've had kind of a more video game background. Do you feel like video games are starting to influence kind of pinball to help improve where they're going nowadays?
    27:19
    I think it can only help. I don't think it hurts. I mean, I think as things evolve and progress, it's always good to have fresh ideas, fresh thinking, fresh perspectives. You know, sometimes when you sit to something so close so often, I don't want to say you have blinders on, but you just might not see things differently. So getting on that, you have an amazing collection of pinball talent in the Chicago area. So I'm going to create your foursome and I want you to pick the four games that you're going to play so i'm going to put you i'm going to put keith elwyn i'm going to put tim sexton and i'm going to put josh sharp in your group now you so keith keith wins all right cool so we're going to all right okay well i'm giving you the advantage i'm letting you select four games that will either play to your strengths or play to their weaknesses um you know what i love playing everything so i don't know if there's anything that gives me more of a advantage i mean i i will i'm never afraid and i'll never pick games that i perceive as my opponents being weaker at so um can i pick the same game four times over then i would say roller coaster tycoon let's go wow really yes yeah i'm not joking for for some reason that game i just excel at better than i think anyone on anyone on the planet if there was one game that it's like my life depended on winning i would pick roller coaster tycoon against anyone it has some pretty ramps there are the wire forms i am jealous of those but outside of that i mean you know i guess i you know i have to go with the oldies that i grew up with let's bring in a sharpshooter cyclops and a jumping jack just to keep things interesting okay so um how many games do you personally have in your collection uh i own eight and what what are they i've got a jumping jack uh taxi which funny enough this is if I do ever decide to sell this game, it's got a pretty cool, unique history because I bought that game from no other than Scott Denisey. And this was like maybe 10 years ago. So this is before anyone knew who Scott Denisey was. They really didn't even know who I was besides just being Roger's kids or Josh's little brother. So I actually bought Scott Denisey's taxi. um i've got a walking dud iron maiden frontier cyclops sharpshooter and jurassic park do you uh do you have the premiums on iron maiden and jurassic park yes yeah and walking dead yep yeah yeah people say the crossbow shot is the uh the game changer on walking dead No, it's the Walker Bombs. Oh, okay. There you go. So that's a pretty tight selection of games. So what makes a perfect game? Or is that even possible to make a perfect game?
    30:40
    Can I say Jurassic Park? You can. You and Josh. That and Cyclops are perfect games. And then, you know, there's a lot of others that can come close. But I mean, I mean, truly, I mean, a perfect game. I don't know if there's ever a 100 percent perfect game because I feel like everything can always be improved or modified or nothing will ever be 100 percent. But I think there's definitely some games that are right on the precipice of it. Yeah, I certainly am waiting for the ability to sell a few games so I can actually get my own Jurassic Park. Hopefully when production wraps up, I'll be able to get one.
    31:29
    You will not be disappointed. Yeah. No, my friend actually has a Jurassic Park LE, and he lives two miles away from me, so I go over to his house all the time when I can.
    31:42
    So I got to ask, though, because you're saying Jurassic Park is the perfect game. What would you say to the fanboys of Lord of the Rings then? I mean, that's a fantastic game as well.
    31:54
    It's kind of like deep dish pizza and thin crust. I mean, I love them both. You know, a nice steak and even chicken. I love them both. And those are two games that I love them both. You know, it'll be interesting if they face off in the Stern Showdown, who wins. Nice. Okay, so getting back to Chicago pizza, So what's the best one?
    32:18
    Personally, Lou Malnati's. Okay. That is my favorite deep dish Chicago pizza by far. I'm pretty for sure Keith L1 said Gino East. So we might have to have a face-off here. Yeah. I mean, Gino's East is good. I mean, don't get me wrong. I mean, to me, there is no bad pizza. So after I talked to Josh, I did order some pizza from Lou. So it should be here this week and I'll be able to try that out. That's awesome. Not to go back to my Australia story. My birthday actually took place when I was in Australia and my family, they delivered because it delivers worldwide. They surprised me with Lou Malnati's pizza when I was in Australia because I was away from my Chicago style pizza. So that was one of the best pizzas I ever ate was that cooking that Lou Malnati is when I was deprived of it for multiple months.
    33:18
    So I wanted to get in and I've asked your dad this. I asked Josh this. So tech support. So I just saw that Marco is starting a tech stream, which I is great because I am such a tech newbie when it comes to getting underneath. I can do some things, but not much. Has Stern ever considered doing like a pinball maintenance for beginners? Hey, you're buying a new machine. Here are the 10 things you should know how to get underneath and fix. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely been considered. And, you know, I don't want to say that it's not in the works. You know, we've definitely held tech service schools. This is more on the commercial side versus the consumer side. So, you know, at those trade shows that are for, you know, operators, we do hold those kind of classes and teaching them, you know, best practices with pinball maintenance and repair. So it is definitely something that has happened throughout the history of Stern. It's just more or less if there's a way to package that and deliver it either to a different audience or just having a different area for that content to live. So I know Scott has talked about kind of the barrier to entry to pinball being made some service or whatnot. Does Stern perceive a certain barrier to entry and how are you guys tackling to to overcome that? I wouldn't say that there's so much a barrier to entry. If anything, it could be price, regardless of which product we're talking about. Pinball is a luxury item, and given the current economic state with a lot of people unemployed, it'll be interesting to see how things shake out. But, you know, currently a lot of people are transitioning their vacation funds into a purchase of, you know, a brand new Stranger Things or Jurassic Park. So it'll definitely be interesting to see how everything that's out once we get a handle on all this COVID-19 stuff.
    35:27
    Can you talk to us kind of what Stern's doing to help combat the COVID-19 with with your guys's company and whatnot? Yeah, I mean, I would say definitely just trying to highlight, you know, not only how fun pinball is, but it's a great escape. Funny enough, I have never played and I'm saying played in quotations more pinball in my life in my home collection than during this time because my son has taken an obsessive liking to it. So it's sometimes some of the first things he will say when he's waking up. We hear on the monitor, pin, pinball, pinball. And it's just like, wow, dude, like we will go down after breakfast or after brushing your teeth or after lunch or even before bedtime. So really, it's just trying to, you know, highlight that, you know, pinball is still around. People are enjoying it. We kind of have this hashtag play strong. And people are starting to share their stories of how pinball is saving them, whether that is through sanity or just an escape from whatever problems they may be facing. And it's just a way for people to be connected. I know we can't physically be connected with one another, but to be able to be connected digitally or even just playing and sharing your high score on a machine or even watching a live stream. You might not even own a pinball machine, but you're able to kind of watch the action and that scratches the pinball edge or you play it digitally.
    37:05
    Is there one game he likes more than another? To quote Gary Stern, the latest one he's playing. You know what? He loves Jurassic Park because he wants to say hello to the dinosaur. door um he likes sharpshooter because i've been pointing out that it's grampy and grammy even though i don't like saying that that's grammy on the back last i do kind of point that it's grampy um but now he just he loves hitting start he can uh he can plunge a ball and he knows to work the flippers so now it's uh we'll see how much this i don't want to say it's a fad but we'll see how long it lasts it seems like there's no signs of it slowing down anytime soon so i know you talked about kind of digital a little bit um i know that stern has their own stern pinball arcade with farsight um is there anything that you guys are trying to do to maybe further that or is it kind of dead in the water can you really talk of that um you know no comment on my end for right now i mean things are you know always in development um it's just a different landscape um digital versus physical. It's, you know, completely different departments, different licensing. So it's not always an apples to apples. So Zach, do you mind if we talk a little bit about manufacturing at Stern? You guys have, you guys in many ways have a much more refined process than a lot of other companies. You have, now correct me if I'm wrong, you have two lines going, Is that correct? Technically, we have three. We have two main production lines. So that's probably what you're referring to, like the two main lines that almost mirror each other. I don't know if either of you have been on the Stern Factory tour. I don't, but I want to come this – if Expo is happening, since I was planning on spending my credit to go to a festival this year, I was going to go to Texas because they were going to do a lot of reveals. But now I'm hoping to push that to Expo so I can actually come on the tour. Well, you know what? We won't put a date, like a year date on it. But the next time you come to Expo, you should definitely come on the factory tour. Absolutely. But, yeah, we have like the two main production lines. So that's whenever you've seen pictures or even videos, that's like the main production line of our pinball machines. But we do have a third smaller production line near the cable assembly area where we can handle conversions and accessory production.
    39:50
    Okay, converting. Tell me more about that. Conversions, what do you mean by that? Yeah, so converting. So with machines, if it's in the US versus overseas is different power supply, different coin coinage. So the conversion line is literally converting, you know, a US game to a European game. So say that we made an initial production of 100 Deadpools, and we originally planned 75 being domestic and 25 being European. And lo and behold, Germany wants 30 Deadpools out of nowhere. They ran out of stock inventory, and they really need it, and we need to fill a container. Well, we need to convert five of those domestic games that we've built to European coinage, power, you name it. So that is that line where it will handle conversions, if that makes sense.
    40:55
    So, Zach, I know that Stern has publicly announced the last couple of years that they do so many cornerstones. I think it's three or four a year. with COVID and everything that's happening so far, do you guys still look to be on that same schedule or has that changed now And does also like Stranger Things since it came out so late last year does that count towards your cornerstones this year Yeah I mean we don put ourselves like on a scheduled date of like all right well this is technically last year cornerstone But, you know, roughly in a 12 month period, you know, we will have three cornerstone titles. And, you know, as of right now, I mean, we're still planning to keep that cadence in some capacity. But, you know, obviously, if stay at home orders and restrictions to manufacturing extend further, I mean, it could certainly impact it. Not going to lie.
    41:48
    So on the lines, if when you have a setup and you turn on the lights and you start going, how much time does it take to make one pinball machine from start to finish?
    42:02
    Yeah, so it roughly takes 30 man hours or people hours. I don't know. They've always used the word man hours, but it's kind of people hours. It's 30 hours from start to finish. OK, and how does that usually go in like a sequential? Obviously, there's downtime where on an assembly line you move to the next section and it may not hop on. So let me just say I put a red dot on a, you know, on a Deadpool and I say, OK, go. I'm just going to see how long the typical cadence is for it to go from, okay, go time to we're boxing it.
    42:39
    Yes. So, I mean, it's weird because, like, I don't know, like, all the specific data just because I don't work on the production line. And, you know, depending on when parts are coming in, they might build, you know, like a Deadpool up to a certain part. And it's like, oh, we're waiting on new Katana sword ramps to come in or little Deadpools. So they might build it up to a certain point, put it to the side and wait for that, you know, those parts to come in. But, you know, from start to finish, if you were just going to kind of steamroll through, it would be 30 hours from start to finish of assembling.
    43:15
    So my question is, Zach, if I know with COVID shutting everything down and whatnot, you guys are kind of at a standstill. So when you guys finally get the green light, whether it be from the governor of Chicago or of Illinois or whatnot, are you pretty much going to pick up right where you guys left off? Or is it going to have to be a slow ramp up process? I mean, again, it depends on the definition of opening up. I know there's a lot of kind of slowly easing into the ramp up of not just manufacturing, but all businesses. You know, is it 25% capacity, 50% capacity? So I wouldn't say it's just a light switch. It's more kind of like a dimmer switch. So I think, you know, no doubt once we are officially open for business in whatever capacity, we've got a lot of games to build, no doubt. But it will just be, you know, a slow migration to full capacity, I'm sure. just with proper social distancing guidelines and just, you know, first and foremost, keeping everyone safe.
    44:23
    For sure. So I guess the other the other question I have, too, and I understand if you can answer this one or not. Typically, we've done the research for the past three or four years and Stern is pretty good to release the title March, April, May. Can we expect to see some a new title shortly after you guys are able to ramp back up? You know what? I mean, just stick around and watch. You never know. You can't predict the future, but I would say we are ready to build a lot of new stuff. Love it.
    44:58
    One thing that's been happening, I would say, in the last five to seven years in pinball is people have been customizing their pinball machines more. You saw it more really with Tron where, and even to some extent, Lord of the Rings, where people, you know, they took the glass off and they created mods and they put things on there. Now, Stern has started to get into that business. Tell me a little more about the philosophy on that and what you feel is Stern's role in that. Because car companies have done this for years. Oh, you want a chrome gear shifter? That's fine. Oh, you want red stitching. You want something. That's fine. So tell me more about Stern's philosophy on that. Yeah, no, I mean, it's definitely like pimping out your ride. And I know Harley-Davidson ownership, they're really big into the Harley-Davidson model. And it's kind of like building up your motorcycle. You want chrome pipes versus the standard. And I'm not a motorcycle guy, so I couldn't dive deeper into that. But, you know, it's no different than a pinball machine. You know, it doesn't make sense from initial building on especially the pro model. A lot of these are going into bars and locations and they could care less about some kind of Chrome add on or toys or gimmicks that could potentially, you know, break or fall off with 10,000 plus plays. But, you know, for a home collector or enthusiast, you know, they love to trick out their machines. You know, every game is going to be different on that level of accessory, because depending on the license, that's license IP. So if it's Deadpool or Marvel, they might not be cool with you hitting or bashing a certain character. So I know on the secondhand market, there's a lot of people who are creative with trying to come up with mods. And at least from a Stern perspective, you know, there's certain limitations to what, you know, the licensor will allow. Yeah, I guess it'd be the same as seeing alternate trans lights. And I'm not talking the risque ones. I'm just talking to people who are like, oh, I like. So for Iron Maiden, for example, people like, you know what? I just really like the live after death trans light, you know, just the album cover. That's what I grew up with. So I've seen people obviously do that probably without permission from the intellectual property. Yeah. It's so I'm assuming it's a very similar thing where you're like, I would love to do this, but I can't. Yeah, I mean, it's no different than the art packages and everything that our design team comes up with. You know, it's like we really want to do this T-Rex theme. And it's like the licensor be like, no, we really like a Raptor. It's like, OK, we're going to go with a Raptor theme.
    47:56
    So, I mean, it is, you know, we're constantly working with the licensor to bring their product to light the way that they envision it. And sometimes we provide them with ideas that they're like, oh, yeah, we really like that. And sometimes it's vice versa. Sometimes a licensor comes back with an idea that we originally didn't think of, and it helps make the product better.
    48:21
    So on the same lines of the accessories and whatnot, my question is, there's been complaints of why doesn't Stern just release the topper and all the accessories, not necessarily with the pinball machine, but as an add-on at the beginning, instead of six months to a year down the road? Is there reasoning behind that? Yeah. I mean, again, in a perfect world, yes, it would be ready upon launch, but sometimes there's factors that are out of our control, whether it's a parts issue or, again, working with the licensor, sometimes, you know, add-ons are through a different department entirely. I mean, not to bring up the Star Wars topper, but let's just say, you know, that was a long road to get that to market. And, you know, ultimately, you know, we're happy with the end result, but, you know, in a perfect world, it would be ready upon launch. But sometimes there's just factors on approvals, manufacturing of those specific parts that, you know, delay the launch. Right. What you're saying is you're not going to hold up a game because you're waiting on approval of a shooter rod. Yes, exactly. Again, and this goes to my point of, you know, the pro model going out to the marketplace. You know, most operators, they couldn't care less for a shooter rod or a topper or side blades. They want to get their new game in the market to get people in their stools, buying drinks, buying food, playing the newest game. And that, you know, that's the bread and butter for Stern is, you know, creating and producing new pinball machines. You know, while we do everything pinball with, you know, merchandise, accessories, and, you know, digital, at the forefront, it is still the pinball machine that, you know, resonates.
    50:12
    Zach, how do you guys try to, how do you balance a home market and an operator market? Very carefully.
    50:22
    No, I mean, it's kind of the model between the pro and the premium LE. So the premium LE model kind of services that home market. You know, it's souped up a little bit more. there's more toys and gimmicks. And that pro model really is for the operator market. But the games are so fun that it kind of, it bleeds across all facets. So, you know, while on paper, you might say, all right, the pro is for the commercial market. Premium LE is for the enthusiast consumer market. I'm sure you've seen it in your neck of the woods. There's a lot of operators who are also enthusiasts. So we've seen more and more, not only premium, but LE games going out on location, which is kind of crazy. I know that there's, you know, some Stern Army locations like Helicon Brewery in Pittsburgh. There's On Tilt at Ace Goge outside of LA, and they only operate LE games, which is incredible because, you know, there's a lot of people who, you know, These limited games, it's like they don't even want to play it because it's like this is pristine. And it's like there's other people are like, no, I want people to play this LE model in the market. So it's kind of blurred lines with the consumer and commercial market nowadays more than ever before.
    51:52
    It's interesting how some features will actually change the feel of a game. The two games I can think of where they're both good, but you have to choose your style.
    52:03
    uh game of thrones has the the upper play field where it's a completely different feel if you have the upper play field versus the pro and it's the same thing with black knight i mean black knight uh the pro seems to be this this high energy velocity ride where when you have the upper play field it's a little more of a throwback to the original black knight where you have that lull in the speed i guess yeah no i mean and sometimes even with games that But from a top overhead view, it looks like there's not much differentiation. I mean, look no further than Jurassic Park. If you were to just look quickly side by side, it's like, oh, they look kind of the same. But that premium LE has a T-Rex that will eat the ball, throw it around. You've got the little Raptor pen, the horizontal helicopter, spinning blade. So it's those nice little subtle touches that a home enthusiast will gravitate towards and want to connect with. Versus on location, it's like, yeah, I don't necessarily need that. But I mean, to your point, there's some games where it is much more of a drastic difference.
    53:15
    We talked about Josh, I think last year we mentioned, and I was talking about the differences between a premium and an LE. And he actually said he doesn't actually put shaker motors in his machines or turn them on. What what do you personally like to play with at home?
    53:32
    I'm really bare bones. I know I've got the premium. I don't dress up my games. So while I think shaker shaker motors and art blades and side rails are cool, that's just not my jam. I just, I love just playing the game. But I mean, when I do play an example of a machine with a shaker motor, I mean, it is usually involved in choreographed really cool. So, you know, if it's a T-Rex stomping and you're feeling the game like go do do do, or even on a game like Ghostbusters, when you're starting storage facility multiball and the game is just vibrating and going crazy, it definitely can enhance the experience. It's almost like, not to date myself, but with Nintendo 64 back in the day, there was the Rumble Pack that you could add to the controller. And when you'd play Mario Kart or something, it would vibrate when you're getting hit with a red turtle shell. It's definitely a unique experience.
    54:37
    Well, to date me, then I actually go back to the original Atari Intellivision. So that was a big leap to go from Atari to Intellivision. And then when Nintendo came out with their original Nintendo Entertainment System, that was the crazy good graphics. And now they look like pixelated garbage, but I still have more fun playing those. Oh, yeah. I mean, I just remember the first time that Nintendo 64 came out. I think that was the one system that completely blew me away with that Super Mario 64. or Josh and I would ride our bikes over to the closest Toys R Us, rest in peace, and we would play on their free little consoles. And it was like, we can't wait to play this at home. This is incredible. Yeah, I actually still play that one with my kids.
    55:28
    And then Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time. I mean, that was so good. Okay, so you've seen this before. there's so much nostalgia associated with nintendo why don't we get a zelda game i mean come on it's like a a zelda game or a a metroid or hey i would take a an updated super mario i mean we can look at this i mean it'd be so much fun i'd totally put it in my house josh loves the teenage mutant turtles and he is all on board with a possible game with that license i would be all on board with a Nintendo license. I always like to say, you never know.
    56:10
    Zach, with JJP moving kind of all their services to Chicago and whatnot, does it change the landscape for you guys?
    56:20
    I don't think so. If anything, maybe we'll see a few friendly faces at Portillo's or other, you know, lunch spots. But, no, I mean, I think it's still business as usual for both companies. I mean, I think, again, and I was kind of saying how, you know, Chicago is kind of the forefront of pinball manufacturing. I think at the end of the day, though, in terms of distribution and selling the games worldwide, just the sheer location of the production, I don't think it would change either of our models necessarily. So, no, I think it's all good. More pinball is good for everyone. Yeah. So to put some of the minds at rest at home, is it like when you see someone from JJP at the same Burger King as you guys, you got the brass knuckles and it's like West Side Story?
    57:14
    The sharks and the jets. Yeah, it's a dance fight. I would love to see a dance fight. You know, I am I am a pretty good dancer. You know, my wife and I had a choreo, a choreographed dance for our wedding. but um no you know it's at least me personally i can't speak to everybody um i've known pretty much everyone in this industry since i was a toddler so it is to me it is all good even before i started working at stern and when i first started working i've got no bad blood with anyone so i'm i'm all for more pinball in the world so when i see anyone from any other um company it is met with a hello and a goodbye.
    57:57
    Awesome. I like that just because I think too much there's, there's definitely the fan boys out there and there's this weird division sometimes in the community. I think they have a hard time understanding. It's like, we're all on the same team because we're all doing pinball together. You know? Yeah. I almost equate it to sports where, well, I won't use the bowls and pistons as an example, because that is real bad blood but you hear from like professional athletes and it's like you almost project your own personal opinion of like yeah you know the patriots hate the cults you know screw Peyton Manning Tom Brady hates him and it's like no they're actually really good friends they're gonna play some golf and it's like there's no bad blood before you know between them and not to say that they're not competitive and when they play each other you know it's not to the death necessarily, but when the game's over, it's like, hey, good game. And it's good sportsmanship. And I like to think I'm kind of an optimistic person that by and large, most people are cool with each other. Yeah, I'm with you. I think it's, you even see it on the forums in pinball where there's some, I guess, people who take aggressive stances. And I've never really understood that because this is my escape. There's enough drama that we have in our own lives, just in business and in family or whatever. Like, I don't see the reason to bring it to what I consider an enthusiast hobby driven market. Life's too short to be negative. So I've always been a positive person. And especially when there's things that's out of my control, I don't freak out because it's out of my control. So I always try to look at the glass half full. So Josh and I just got our own copies of Pinball by your dad. So when are you and your brother going to write Pinball 2?
    60:00
    You know what? I'll leave that to Josh. You know what? I will volunteer myself to do the marketing and promotion of the book, but I will nominate Josh to actually write it. Okay. There's some awesome pictures in that book though. I open up that book and I can smell the environment of my childhood. Oh yeah. It's funny because my dad literally just sent an email to my mom, Josh and I with a picture that was on the cutting room floor. So it actually was not in the book and it was, it was his book in the window of like a corner bookstore from New York. And it looks really, it almost looks like straight out of the, it was, you know, the seventies or eighties. And it just looks so dated, but cool. And it's like, there's just a window wall of pinball books. It's really cool. Okay. So I actually just sent you a picture. I was scanning through the book, and I really can smell this picture. It's actually two people playing a pinball machine, and they have a Budweiser and three packs of cigarettes on it.
    61:13
    Oh, that's awesome. A different time, right? It's a completely different time. It's like back in the days when airplanes had a smoking section and a non-smoking section. Yeah. Or Denny's, I guess. so Zach is there anything you can tell us about the future of pinball in general and where you heading and and uh whatnot yeah I mean it's definitely unique times because I mean there's so many different ways to answer that um I mean look at the competitive side you know when are IFPA sanctioned events going to happen and you know I couldn't tell you I know at the end of the day pinball is not going away I mean it is so much fun that it just never going away Now in what capacity that is out on you know the commercial market I don know I mean, I know that there's certain areas that have gotten hit harder by this pandemic. And, you know, there's some arcades and arcade bars that, you know, might not recover. but you know when everything is kind of back to the new normal I think that you know pinball ultimately will you know exceed and pick up right where it left off so I think you know pinball is not going away and you know from a stern perspective you know we have a lot of cool stuff that we're going to be building and you know sharing with the world and that's you know to the market as well as the whole market so I know that you guys don't release numbers at all But I know that the Adams family is touted as the highest selling modern pinball machine to date. If you guys sold a pinball machine that outdid the $22,000 or $23,000 that Adams family did, would you guys release those numbers and kind of take the trophy from Williams and Bally? You never know.
    63:06
    Probably not, but you never know. where is the where's the next place for people to encounter pinball i mean we talked i talked about this with uh well josh and i have we talked about this with your dad we talked about this with your brother where are the new places people are going to encounter pinball because the arcades that you and i grew up on they don't exist anymore yeah i mean is this the question of like post COVID-19 or kind of like before stuff went off the rails? You know, I, okay. So I work in a hospital and I just view that this is, yes, this year, I think we're just going to take a mulligan on. We're going to get through whatever's going on and then everybody's going to go back to their groove. And so I would argue that people are going to go back. People are going to go back to Disneyland. They're going to go to the amusement parks. They're going to go to the water parks. They're going to go back to all the places where they found entertainment before. And so how do we get people to see pinball more in the entertainment wild?
    64:13
    Yeah, I mean, I would say from that regard, it's still business as usual. I mean, certain army locations have been increasing and popping up all over the place. So, again, there's places for people to be playing these new games and even the older titles. On the digital front, I know there's a lot of people that have gotten into the hobby because of, you know, playing the Stern Pinball Arcade. It's like, wow, there's a real Ghostbusters I can play in location, not just on my phone. And again, that's just organic reach of people being introduced and becoming aware of pinball. I know from like an eSport perspective, the Stern Pro Circuit is growing year over year, and that's another touchpoint of new people getting involved. I think it's really cool how even just on the competitive side, the youth is just dominating. And that alone can introduce an entirely new generation of players. if a kid who's watching you know just stuff on twitch randomly stumbles on jack danger stream or you know papa's broadcast of the stern pro circuit final and they see this kid playing pinball and dominating and it's like oh wow that that's a kid my age doing something that looks kind of cool and they're playing a guardians of the galaxy oh i like that theme let me find out more about what this pinball thing is and it's almost no different than how josh and i got roped into the competitive side. You know, we saw other little kids playing and competing for trophies and it piqued our interest. And once we tried it, we've never looked back. So I don't know if you listen to other podcasts or whatnot. We know that you listen to us exclusively, right? Of course.
    66:05
    So my question to you is we had Zach many of formerly of This Week in Pinball now of the pinball show reach out to us because your dad he he said that your dad validated one of his ideas so i want to run this cross specifically to you and see what your thoughts are on this go go for it okay in competitive pinball zach thinks the best way to reach out to everyone is to have like 10 like competitive pinball machines that have no theme and i'm trying to think exactly how he puts Like that way you could you could televise them. You wouldn't have any issues with licensing and stuff like that. And then the landscape would be pretty much just even across the field because like one person couldn't learn more about a machine than another. Is that something that's even realistic? I don't know. I keep hearing this idea kicked around and I want a professional's opinion. Let's put it that way.
    67:03
    That's you know, it's interesting. I'll give like two two answers to that. one and this is me with my ifpa hat on whatever works to get like more exposure for pinball i'm all for so if you had espn or some other big entity saying hey we will cut you a million dollar prize for your players if you play on this and i would be all for it i mean it was funny because josh and i you know we've spoken with so many different production companies who've been trying to launch, you know, some kind of pinball initiative. And there were some wacky ideas, like almost like an amazing race style pinball competition. And it's like, yes, awesome. I don't care if this is the how pinball is distributed to the masses where people are playing a pinball machine underwater or playing a pinball machine while climbing rocks to get to the next level. and then Nate to play a ball. So from that perspective, I am all for whatever can get pinball out to the masses, whether it changes the infrastructure of what a game is or removes the theme from Zach's perspective. Like, cool, I'm all for it. But taking a more realistic approach, I think that if you're telling me that this game that has no branding is going to resonate versus, Hey, these people are competing on Star Wars from just sheer mass visibility perspective. I mean, you tell me, is game number one going to resonate more versus Star Wars?
    68:46
    Yeah, I think that you have to have the marketing involved with that. the challenge with, and I'll use, I'll use golf as an example, and I'll even use something like bowling or, you know, or air hockey, because I've talked about this before. There's a documentary called Way of the Puck, and it talks about competitive air hockey, but the challenge is once you buy a table, you have it. That's, that's pretty much it. It's not like they're coming out with new technology, they're not changing every year. And so in many ways, that kind of stagnated that competitive aspect because there wasn't really a market for new product out there. However, on the golf side, the manufacturers are what drive the tour because they're always coming out with a new ball or a new head. And so the game's slowly changing. And that's actually where the money is in golf and people want that new technology. They want that evolving experience. And I would say the same thing with pinball. You don't want to have 10 standard games. You actually want to say, oh, well, this game is pushing the limits this way. And this game is pushing the limits this way. If you look at the greatest hits from the Williams Valley era in the 90s, they couldn't really compete very well with a standard. If you released that game without the nostalgia factor, it's not going to compete very well with a current game because the rules on the current game, they're so much deeper. The games are more refined now. And so you're going to have a different experience now than you would have in 1995 or 1975 or 1955. It's just a different situation. So I think the technology is pushing any field forward. And if you don't have that aspect, I think it'll stagnate and die. Yep. And I mean, just to kind of go along with that, I mean, you look at formats of tournaments. It's like, what would resonate well with the viewing audience? Is it timed challenges where you play two minutes or three minutes and whoever has the highest score wins? Is it objective based? You know, the first person to start this multiball or achieve some kind of scoring threshold, you know, something that's more digestible for somebody who is walking off the street and it doesn't know anything about pinball sometimes you need to distill it to the easiest form for them to understand what they're watching yeah and i mentioned this to to keith elwynn and i think i mentioned this to uh to your brother and that i it's brilliant having that mini game mode in jurassic park oh it's it's so much fun Okay, but that is such a great opportunity to say, okay, we know there is a giant game out there. We're going to focus on these aspects. Now, that's where you can televise. This is where, like Billiards, this is the reason why Nineball became the game is because it's a fast game. It's quick to understand, and you can still see the skills. And having that escape mode in Jurassic Park, it's the same thing. It's a fast mode. People understand it. and you can still display your skills.
    72:02
    Yep. I mean, hell, you can even do pinball horse, you know, trick shots. So do you think here in the future, because the other thing, too, is people said, you know, the appeal of basketball, the appeal of soccer is that it is a timed sport, and you know at the end of the day, you know, once that 90 minutes is up in soccer or the two hours in basketball or whatever it may be, people know that it's going to end at a certain time. Do you think timed events are going to become more desirable for competition for streaming and whatnot?
    72:38
    Again, you don't know because it depends on your audience. I mean, I know like with a lot of typical competitions, you know, there is no time constraint. So guess what? They're going to just play out their games however they're normally going to do it. But, you know, maybe there's a unique side event that does implement some kind of time restriction. And I know it's not quite at that same level, but the whole flip frenzy craze that, you know, there is that component of trying to get in as many matches as possible. And you don't necessarily want to keep playing your one current game because you want to get back in the mix and try to improve your win loss record and everything. So it definitely will evolve. I mean, there's no doubt. you know we were talking to your dad and he talked about there was back in the day they had prizes like a new car and these high end cash prizes do you think we'll ever be able to get competitive pinball back to a point where um the competitors see a bigger cash investment to their prizes i don't see why not i mean i think the world's our oyster and the more you know esports kind of takes off and even just with the storm pro circuit i mean year over year it's trending up so you look at pinbird it's trending up every big competition that prize package is trending up while it might not be spiking like a crazy exponential curve it is still trending up so like i said the sky is the limit and and i can use a new car so i hope uh the car dealerships out there are listening i wish they actually had uh this car is good for pinball moving like that that checkbox because i bought a car actually i my car is five years old now and i took it to pick up one of my first uh games and it was an iron man and we loaded it and i couldn't close the back yep it's funny because when my wife and I were moving from our condo to our current house, when we were looking, I would always bring a tape measure. And whenever we got to the basement, that was like the first thing that I went to was measuring the door. And, you know, certain houses, it's like, oh, we love this place. It's like, nope, can't fit a game down in the basement. So that's a non-starter. And it was funny because people, the realtors that we were, you know, getting the houses shown would look at me weird. like what is he measuring the basement door for usually you know that's not usually what they see somebody looking at first thing so it was funny how people would be like oh he's got pinball machines and oh this gate or this house won't work because a game cannot fit through the door it's no different than a car it's like i gotta make sure that this suv can fit a pinball machine so i love that uh i think there's like a pin side thread you know will a machine fit in blank car it definitely helps well it's funny too because um recently because the economy the way it's went we've decided to buy a house instead of build and it's that same thing we're with the realtor and she just chuckles she's like i've never had uh this be a concern for a customer before and my wife just calls them our other children yep we have to consider the other children and where they're going to live.
    76:05
    That's funny. I'm actually looking into getting a dolly so I can just move them up and down my stairs. I have this staircase of death out the back where I guarantee they would have never approved this if anybody actually had looked at it OSHA standard-wise. But we do have a staircase that goes downstairs that has a 90-degree angle in it. However, I mean, they are heater air conditioner is in the basement and they got those down. So I think I could get pinball machines up and down. Yeah. Josh and I have had some interesting pinball moves back in the day, especially when he had a pinball machine in his college apartment. That was like four flights up and 90 degree turns. And yeah, that wasn't fun. There was a lot of pizza and beer involved for payment. I don't know if you ever saw Jeff Patterson's way that he got his in and out of the basement he takes out a window and he's got like two joists and he's got like a dolly system that he just puts the pinball machine on and just brings it up through the window well and out through the house and he's good to go oh wow no I have not seen that that's awesome I think there's people who have the walk in basements that are like yeah piece of cake it's like screw you god He's like, no, you don't move a pinball machine that easy. It's got to be a little stressful. Well, I have a walk-in basement, but seriously, it's these stone steps that are meant to look nice. I'm like, oh, man, I would never have done that. It's this weird angled curve on them, too. It's horrible.
    77:41
    Yeah, my new house has got a walk-out basement. And there's no steps in between the outside and the inside, so it's going to be nice and easy. Easy breezy. I hate you so much.
    77:51
    Well, Zach, is there anything else that you would like to wrap up and give your summary statement? No, I mean, I think, you know, I just hope that, you know, outside of a pinball perspective, you know, I hope everyone's just staying safe, you know, staying the course. You know, pinball is, you know, so much fun that I always hate seeing people dive into whatever negative side of things. So, you know, try to remain positive, you know, stay safe and keep flipping. yeah thanks so much for coming on we really appreciate it we know that it's you know you you everybody who comes on our show they do it out of the love of the game and uh we really do appreciate uh you helping out the enthusiast uh the enthusiast market and the enthusiast drive to actually get more pinball it's nice to have an insider's perspective on this yeah no definitely and thank you guys i mean you guys are you know one of the many you know content creators and you know i appreciate what you guys do i mean it's entertainment for me i mean i listen to your guys podcasts and it's fun it it warms my heart that there's so many people out there so passionate about pinball well thank you we really appreciate that we enjoy we enjoy doing this and we couldn't even imagine how to do your job you you do a great job there at stern and uh you always leave us wanting more when it comes to your marketing well i'll take that as a compliment so thank you okay so zach if if people want to uh get anything from stern buy uh buy a shirt buy a hat i've actually been buying so much from the the stern shop because they keep sending it because it right now it's free shipping so tell me how to get the stern lifestyle brand and how to get a new pinball machine and if they need to how to get a hold of you? You know what? Just go to sternpinball.com. And if you want to reach me directly, zach.sharp at sternpinball.com. I always respond to every email that comes in. So if you didn't get a response, it might have gone to my junk or spam. So don't send me bad links. All right. And if you want to pick up a new Stern Pinball machine, what's the best way to find a dealership or a distributor? Yeah. If you go on the Stern Pinball website under buy a game, you can search for the closest dealer to you by zip code.
    80:12
    Well, it's funny too. I want to just, I just want to point this out. So a couple of months back I was having issues with my Stern insider package arriving and I got ahold of Stern, the phone number or something on there. And like, Oh yeah, you need to talk to Zach. And I'm like, Oh, they're not going to send me to Zach sharp. And they sent me to you. And I was like, Oh, I didn't realize I was going to get you. Like, so it's really cool that you're the go-to guy. So. I'm a Zach of all trades. I know Shelly Sachs, for people who know the Data East Stern history, she is the iconic figure behind Gary. She's always been known as the Jack of all trades. So I can't take that moniker, so I will go with the Zach of all trades. Nice. Well, I did get my Stern Insider packet with no problems, so I appreciate that. Good to hear. Thank you for the support. All right, Josh, if they want to get a hold of us, How do they get a hold of us? So if you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. You can email us at LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com, or you can hit us up on Facebook. We seem to respond very well there. We also have an Instagram account, and you've guessed it. It's at Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. Easy enough, right?
    81:22
    All right, and we do have a website coming up. We just need to get it designed, and it'll be out there. mainly have a lot of links to friends of the show and certainly the manufacturers so that is pending well awesome i think that pretty much wraps it up for our interview like once again thank you zach for coming on and and filling out the sharp trifecta as we're naming this yep you have to get my mom on here and that can truly be the last dance we might have to consider that.
    81:56
    So, well, awesome. Uh, anything else, Scott, other than a cough? No, I'm good. Thanks. All right. Later.
    82:21
    We'll be right back.