What's going on everybody? Welcome to I think this is number 18, episode 18 of the Dirty Pool podcast. Uh today I'm talking with somewhat of a of a famous pinball legend. Uh, it's the original creator of Pinball Expo. He is in the Guinness Book of World Records for having the most pinball machines, although I don't know if that still stand. Is that still a current record? It's a current record, but the number It's a current record, but the number has been increased. Oh, look at that. Even more. Uh, Oh, look at that. Even more. Uh, everybody, it's Rob Burke. Rob Burke runs Pinball Expo and we're going to talk about that today. How are you doing, Rob? Doing good. I uh rushed to get here and Doing good. I uh rushed to get here and thanks to the wonderful Jeff, he allowed me to get here a little late, but um glad to be here and then we can talk till midnight if you want. Sweet. We're going to this is going to Sweet. We're going to this is going to be the first 7 to 10 hour long uh podcast. Uh strap in everybody. Think about it, Jeff. You'll be you'll Think about it, Jeff. You'll be you'll be in the longest podcast. Yeah, that's true. I don't know if I Yeah, that's true. I don't know if I don't know if 7 hours is going to do that. We might be in for the long haul. We might have to do this for a couple of weeks. Someone will have to Google and look that up. Um, so, uh, you know, I forgot to pull up my chat here. It's gonna totally tank the whole thing. Uh, Pinball Expo 2025. We're looking at how many years running now? I believe the first one was 1985. Is that correct? That's correct. You know, uh, the reason That's correct. You know, uh, the reason I wanted to do Expo was um, you know, we had a little pinball club I went to. I'm in a town called Waro Ohio near Youngstown, but there was a pinball group out of Akan, Ohio, which I joined the group and once a month we would meet at someone else's home and nor the guys would have at least one machine in the collection and we just talk pinball. But um one of the meetings I said, wouldn't it be cool to have a national pinball collector's convention? And uh you know there there was some lukewarm response to it. But um I took that initial thought and then you know expanded it. But my whole dream initially was to honor to recognize my heroes who were the pinball designers and artists because let's face it uh chef even for yourself you play pinball but wouldn't it be cool to meet the guy who built the game? Absolutely. back back then in the in the Absolutely. back back then in the in the ' 80s, you know, 70s and 80s and the only names we ever got was through the the books that and there's a half a dozen books out Roger Sharp and his book was out and some others but we didn't know these guys. Norm Clark, Steve Cord, these are names I just never heard of before, but these are all the premier designers at the time. And um I reached out to Alvin Gotaut to start and I actually drove to I I flew to his home in Chicago and I said I want to meet you about an idea I have. He says come on down. So Alvin Golib, the owner of D. Got So Alvin Golib, the owner of D. Got I assume the guy live a mansion, you I assume the guy live a mansion, you know, with with the with the uh the lions on both sides of the entrance and the whole big deal. I mean, every building should have two lions on either side of it to get into it. A very simple, modest home. So, we came A very simple, modest home. So, we came in and and I told him my dream and he said, "You know what? You got so much passion. How can I say no? I I'll do it." And what I asked him to do if he'd be my guest speaker for the banquet. So, slow but I put the whole idea together. And at the time, I used um a guy by the name of Bill Kurts. He was involved with expo with pinball. at the time he was more of a an author. He wrote a book along with uh some other people on pinball and he did a couple of arcading arcade books as well. And about six months into planning, I hooked up with Mike Pesac, who at the time worked for fun games, an arcade chain in our area. And uh he head up the vendors area. So we had a team of three and we pulled it off. And I remember at the banquet Elvin spoke the history of DGA and that seminar last and his talk lasted three hours. I it was unbelievable. I don't that's a long time that's a long time squirming around in their seats, you squirming around in their seats, you know. Oh my gosh, when does that guy stop? But uh it was very informative. But to me the best part was honoring the designers. And the time I had four guys come up. Harvey Heis who worked design for Genko. He was still living in his 80s at the time. Steve Cord was Williams, Norm Clark with Barry, and Wayne Nines was the goblin. And they stood and I said, "Ladies and gentlemen, these four guys are responsible for designing over 600 machines." Sure. Sure. Well, me, everyone stood and applauded. Well, me, everyone stood and applauded. And what was special for me is several of the guys had tears in their eyes. I mean, they they've never been recognized. You know, when you work for a corporation, you know, all all the big shots get all the accolades and the the worker they're just their employees, but I made sure that these employees got the uh accolades they deserve. And uh it went over quite well and I was quite pleased. So, I hear you. This is like the same reason I hear you. This is like the same reason that I wanted to do the podcast is to try to give a face to people that are just underappreciated or maybe not even known. Pinball in general has like kind of a a facade of mystery behind it, right? you know, these these machines are complex and it takes it's huge teams to make them, but uh you know, they come out and it's more about the game than the people, which is fine, but uh you know, kudos to you for creating even a platform for people to even be available to see this, especially back then. Without the internet, how do you even let people know that a pinball expo is a thing, you know? Great question. So, at the time, there Great question. So, at the time, there was a guy by the name of Steve Young. You know, you know Steve, he's got the silver ball. What's he called? Silver ball. is but he had a publication called Pinball but he had a publication called Pinball Collectors Quarterly and that was the only way of reaching out to the masses. So we advertised in there you know we're going to have a pinball show and the first year in 1985 we had we hit about 100 people that came to the show. Wow that's impressive. Wow that's impressive. I you know I guess that was big the full I you know I guess that was big the full admission package just to give you an idea was $25. But um we we we recognized everybody. The show went up well. And as far as I'm concerned, it was a one and done. And then about six months into the next year, we I started getting phone calls, went to the next show. I said, "Well, there ain't no next show. We're done." They Oh, no. This was too much fun. You got to do one more. So, I did one more and I we we had a toast and and recognized Steve Cordex. So, I had all all the people from the industry recognize him and and give their accolades and stories about him. So then I was officially done. I'm already God. So, you know, here we are 41. It's just amazing. But the show keeps growing in personality and different things we do. Um, but think about this. Uh, Jeff, there's so many shows out today. Well, we were the first. So, um, you know, I'm proud to say that the idea came from me and, um, you know, it's still going just the fact that the same promoter has been with the same show. You know, Texas, they've they've been around for quite a while, but you know, they're have their second um, promoter that's running that show now, but Sure. Talking about TPF for people who Sure. Talking about TPF for people who aren't aware of this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, same guy doing the same show Yeah. So, same guy doing the same show for 41 years. It's pretty nuts. But you know, uh, sometimes I think to myself, I wonder if I would ever sell the show, but the thing is what stops me is no one would have the passion that I do. I do the show. If you sold the show, do you think the If you sold the show, do you think the show's feelings would be hurt? Like I feel like Pinball Expo itself has its own like idea. It's like it's got its soul, right? The show itself is a living entity now. Yep, it is. But, you know, it's the Yep, it is. But, you know, it's the passion is what makes the show. You know, I I go overboard in many aspects to make it good for the for the attendees. It's all about the attendees. So So 40 years ago, there were no So So 40 years ago, there were no vendors, right? And we're talking about this was mostly just a talking heads opportunity to meet designers and and to like you said to give some faces to the to the community of pinball that didn't exist then, right? When did the show start to incorporate kind of like people that were making makers in the industry? Yeah, show one we had some artists. So Yeah, show one we had some artists. So one we had vengeance and what because I knew uh Alvin Gotland you know by speaking to him he got to come because I know I knew Norm Clark he got B to come Williams. So then I went down the game plan and said hey man these three guys are coming. Well I guess we're going to come too but I was a complete stranger. I was a nobody in the industry. No one knew me. I was a complete outsider. Just just an enthusiast. So um he was so crazy back then. But we had all these major manufacturers showing their latest game and then we had the average guy selling used equipment next to them. So it was it was a crazy crazy mishmash of everything you could think of. But people had a good time. It was um it was a hard insmart and uh it worked out quite well. We were pleased. And now but let's talk venue size. I And now but let's talk venue size. I mean, how many square footage of the the current Pinball Expo looks absolutely enormous in terms of uh floor space? So, the the first show had maybe 10,000 So, the the first show had maybe 10,000 square feet and then we moved four different times. It was the fifth time that we moved, but most recently the last hotel we we had about 25,000 square ft. So then when I came to this new venue, um I started thinking in a big way and right now we are in 100,000 square feet. That's impressive. Yeah. Yeah. 10,000 is nothing to slouch at for a 10,000 is nothing to slouch at for a first show, but my lord, it just shows how far the expo's grown in the last 40 years. 40 years to do it. But yeah. 40 years to do it. But yeah. So, is this a actual 40? Was there a So, is this a actual 40? Was there a year skipped or are we looking at the 40th kind of pinball expo anniversary? Well, for this is our 41st year, but you Well, for this is our 41st year, but you know, we kept the show going even through co. So, it was all you video of course and all from the basement of my home, but we had seminars going on. I had people um linked in through the internet and uh we never stopped. We never stopped. We kept having a show even though it wasn't live for you for that one year. But um it just shows how much people that love it just shows how much people that love pinball were willing to kind of just like push through even even times like you know COVID where things were not exactly ideal for mass gatherings of people on any circumstance. Yeah. Don't you dare get together. Yeah. Don't you dare get together. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yep. But uh we did it and uh we're still Yep. But uh we did it and uh we're still doing it and we're having a good time. You know, it's uh to me the most satisfaction just having people smile and say, "Hey man, thanks. Great show." And to me, Jeff is just bringing in the Jeff is just bringing in the international people. You know, I don't know any shows that that bring in the international people to the extent that we do. Um Um so we got we got a few people that are so we got we got a few people that are shouting out directly to you saying thanks so much. They're really looking forward to uh coming to Expo this year. And there's, it's funny, the reason I mention that is some of them are streamers, some of them are arcades themselves, and some of them are just individuals. And kind of one of the questions I have for you is there's so many different types of individuals that are involved in Pinball Expo. How do you make sure that there's something for everybody, whether it be tournament players, collectors, people that just want to come and like roam around the floor, vendors themselves. I mean, you have to kind of touch base on so many different aspects of, you know, the expo experience. How do you make sure that it's good for everyone? Yeah, that's a good question because, Yeah, that's a good question because, you know, for a while there I was using the tagline pinball expor the everything for everyone showed to emphasize I don't care what level of interest you are, there'll be something there for you. I'm going to pull up the website here I'm going to pull up the website here while you're talking. I just want people to see one one you should win an award for the longest scrolling single page in history of website uh manufacturing. But uh part of the reason I want to scroll down is it talks you have so many different categories of things like it just it seems like such a filled event. Uh so I'm sorry for cutting you off but I just want to scroll through this while you talk. You know what what makes me exciting You know what what makes me exciting about dance is that um there's so much happening. You know some sometimes people call me You know some sometimes people call me up and say yeah I'm going to come down Friday only. I can't get off work. I said man do me a favor. Call up your office. Tell me you got co you'll have CO that weekend. You've got to come the whole time. There's just so much to see. You can't see it all in one day. You can't see it all in two days. You really need all three days uh to see everything. And uh we we refill it up. But you know, when people get there, there's a love in here because there's so much positive energy. People high-five and hugging and say, "Hey, Jeff, you think I was dirty? I wanted to meet you, man. I love that one that one podcast again." And then you'll say, "Hey, are who are you? I'm Bubble. Oh my gosh. I Nice to meet you, man. So, you know, it's an opportunity for everybody to get together and high five and and hey, let's have lunch together. You know, the thing is with the with the guys, the international guys, um often times people will meet him and say, "Hey, man, you got you guys are pretty cool." And then next thing you know, they're they're eating lunch together or dinner together and and they made new friends. So uh you know pinball is a universal uh loved universal language among everybody. And uh you know we for sure you don't have to speak the for sure you don't have to speak the same language to play a game of pinball with each other. It can still be a friendship making or friendship breaking experience. We got guys coming from Germany. We have We got guys coming from Germany. We have a vendor from France. Uh we got a guy from Hungary. That was crazy. But um it's crazy how international a lot of it's crazy how international a lot of the pinball makers are. I mean I'm thinking like you know the pinsaw guys are from France. You know I forget where HOV pinball is the one that makes the uh LVDS HDMI kind of break out for Stern but just in general like there is no even though Americans do consume the most pinball and I think that's a lot to do with some of the shipping uh kind of disasters that are currently going on with tariffs and whatnot. But uh but pinball's international and we have people from Australia, all over. In fact, I can see Omega Cammy is currently in chat. She's from Tasmania of all places. And uh this shows, man, Tasmania loves pinball, too. Yeah, the one from Tasmania. She the one Yeah, the one from Tasmania. She the one coming from Expo. Is she coming to Expo? I don't know. Cammy, are you coming? Are I don't know. Cammy, are you coming? Are you coming to Expo this year? There'll be a little delay. We'll get There'll be a little delay. We'll get back to that one. Uh so why Cammy? While Cammy is answering that question. Uh, so have there, this is a good one. Have there been any near disaster moments that have almost prevented Expo from happening? I know you mentioned CO, but just has there been such a logistical uhoh? CO was the only thing that stopped us CO was the only thing that stopped us from moving forward? I mean, that's pretty good. A a global I mean, that's pretty good. A a global pandemic is uh pretty much the biggest monkey wrench you could possibly have. I still would have done it, but Chicago, I still would have done it, but Chicago, when these things happen, Chicago is a major lockdown. and they they wouldn't see to it. But um yep, we uh nothing stopped the show. The show must go on. Yeah, this is true. Uh Indie Arcade Wave Yeah, this is true. Uh Indie Arcade Wave is asking, he says he hopes the homebrew community is bringing tons of games. How do you make sure or interface with the homebrew community to make sure that they represent cuz I know like uh Tatch uh is local to Chicago and I know he's brought his his games uh there a few times and among other people. You actually mentioned someone uh individually uh that had a game that was really interesting. if you wanted to plug them now as well, but just how do you connect with these home group people? Well, the answer this first question, Well, the answer this first question, the last count, the last year we had 40. The last count were over 50 this year. So, for you home brewers or people that love the home brewers, get ready to go crazy. And uh I'm trying to think where I should start. Um, as far as how we got the people there, Aaron Davis with Fast Pinball has done a very good job of promoting Expo and promoting the homebrew out there in the West Coast and getting people to use his system to come to Expo. So, he's a big advocate. Jake Danzig does a very good job of promoting it. And Amodo Har from Marco. So, what's Marco doing this year is um I've asked them to lose their mind and I've been trying this for three years. I've asked them to lose their mind. Finally, they lost their mind. They are getting a booth 70 foot by 80 foot. That's a big boost. That's a big boost. That's a huge That's a huge And what I've asked Marco to do and they And what I've asked Marco to do and they finally agreed to do it is they are going to have a a pinball parts supermarket. And what that's going to be is uh they're going to go through the shelves and and some of the boxes on the ground and um discontinued products and so forth and they're going to have them there to show sold at a discount. So if you want to bargain or you want to So if you want to bargain or you want to have a good time just rumaging through the boxes of goodies, this is going to be the year. Marco, I thank you. Marco Ramirez and the people from Marco, uh thank you for doing it because I'm excited about that. But what Emoto has asked is that we do the homebrew as part of this whole Marco uh package. So guys, you're going to probably spend a quarter of the day just in that one area. So much happen, right? A shout out to Emoto. She does so right? A shout out to Emoto. She does so much to be the face of Marco and to just help promote kind of like pinball. I mean, if you need parts and you have stuff that's going on, I mean, she worked with Kyle back in the day when they were doing the Marco live broadcast as well. I mean, just an absolute uh legend in the uh kind of repair and parts thing. Uh Pat has a question here. Pat's Arcade has a question. And I see Pat's Arcade has a question. And I see there's there's this part of your website that says zero zero tolerance policy talking about Pinball Expo, you know, being a safe and family fun place. Uh Pat's asking if there's going to be more security this year because a popular podcaster is threatening to fight someone apparently who's potentially bringing a homebrew pin. Yeah. So, we we hear these rumblings as Yeah. So, we we hear these rumblings as well and and we let the right people know. So, if anything happens, things will get squelched very quickly. So, you tell that young man to come see me and if I have to, I'll be his private bodyguard the whole weekend. There you go. There you go. I mean, what more of an answer do you want? They're trying to make sure that this is going to be a safe pace. And don't fight people at Pinball Expo. That's a stupid thing to do. That's the last thing I want as well. That's the last thing I want as well. So, you know, we want to be family friendly and people that come there 98% of the time leave with a good feeling and say, "Boy, this is a great great event." Like you've heard Jeff from your friends. Pinball is about we need to grow the Pinball is about we need to grow the pinball community and it means to send a positive message. People don't want to be going someplace to fight. That's uh that doesn't sound very pinball spirit. You know what I mean? Y Y um thank you Geck saying keep growing um thank you Geck saying keep growing pinball. I'm trying. That's why we're talking to Rob here. By the way, if you're just tuning in, this is Rob Burke. Rob Burke is the original creator of Pinball Expo, Guinness Book of World Records. You said that you had a new updated number. Blow my mind. What is the number of pinball machines that you currently have? Well, the last number was 1040. So, Well, the last number was 1040. So, we're closer to 1150 now. And what's uh that's a lot of pins. uh that's a lot of pins. Yeah. But what's scary is I made a trip Yeah. But what's scary is I made a trip overseas three months ago and I went to meet uh GA who's with the um Austria uh pinball museum they have in that part of the world and um he made the mistake of taking me back to his warehouse. So nice nice probably bringing back another 100 days. Well, no. You're making sure no one's anywhere near your uh your your Guinness Book of World Records limit. Uh Yoda wants to ask, "Are pins available for sale?" I'm sorry. What? I'm sorry. What? I'm collecting the 30s games now. Who I'm collecting the 30s games now. Who would guess it? So, you know, Cliff's one of our guys that comes to the show. Cliff is the is the 1930s uh guru at Pinball Expo. He's the first guy to came to expo with one single 1930s game. And I said, "Boy, this thing is kind of cool, kind of fun." I said, "Why don't you come back again?" So he he missed a year and and then I think it was two or three years ago, I said, "Let's do a big spread for the 30s." So he he did like a speak easy kind of look with a a 1930s lampshade and a 1930s uh bar scene and couch there and carpeting and take and kind of walk into the time of the 1930s. And he had about 20 or 30 1930 games there. And we actually had a 1930s tournament. And there's talk, Jeff, that you're gonna enter it this year. So, a lot of people, there's a buzz about that. Uh, Uh, you I'm not a tournament player. I'm a I'm a talker. I'm a I'm a person just to meet and greet the pinball people, not to try to beat them. There's far better players. Can you imagine having your mic there? Can you imagine having your mic there? What are you doing here right now? What's your name? Billy B. Bill. Billy B. What are you doing? Well, I'm playing this 1930s game. I'll be there with my camera. Don't you worry. I'm bringing the whole rig. What's crazy is the more you're around What's crazy is the more you're around him, the more you appreciate him. As simplistic as they are, but I mean this is how every this is where the whole industry started with these 30s games. No flippers, no electric, very basic games, but uh in the mid30s they really start developing bumpers and some other things that made the games a little more exciting. But to see the evolution of this game, in fact, you know, I have an we have an arcade back in my hometown called Pastimes that has a lot of my collection in there. And we're going to have a booth this year called Pastimes booth. But in that booth, we're going to have games from the 30s, the 40s, the 50s, the 60s. So you see the evolution of the games in the and that history is important because and that history is important because arcades are just stocking, you know, modern sterns. Now I frequently say that it's the arcade's responsibility to have some kind of glimpse of different generational games. And if you haven't played a wood rail, if you haven't played a game without flippers, you should absolutely give it a try because there are so many games that are just amazingly fun even without flippers. And plus, you get to like experience a little bit of like pinball history. Like what's not to like? Yeah. You know, the the one thing we Yeah. You know, the the one thing we find at pastimes is um Have you seen pastimes? Do you know about it, Jim? I haven't. No. If you could if you could I haven't. No. If you could if you could Google while we're doing while we're talking, if you could Google pastimesplurarch arcade.com, but that has a a big part of my collection. We've got 600 games in there. So, it's really a very large arcade. But, uh well, while I'm while I'm pulling uh well, while I'm while I'm pulling this up, uh you had mentioned one thing that people like put together kind of like themed uh environments for the actual pinball expo. Tell me what's the what's the craziest like just balls out wild themed booth that someone's put together over the years where you were just like, "Wow, you guys really went ham." Yeah, that's a great question. Um Yeah, that's a great question. Um I've got the past times pulled up too I've got the past times pulled up too for people that are curious. Well, let get a little goofy this year. Well, let get a little goofy this year. I know that. Um yeah, he's gonna have a big ass sofa. I yeah, he's gonna have a big ass sofa. I talked to I talked to Rob about that. Old Rob Wrath. I guess you Robs like to stick together, huh? Yeah, something like that. Um, that's a good question. I had to really think about that one. Um, you know, one thing that really blows my mind is the size of the booth that that Stern gets. I mean, for the 40th, they got a I think it was 80 by 80 ft by 80 ft. I mean, how large it is? It was massive. That's big. That is a big boost. That's big. That is a big boost. A big supporter of it. And u that's A big supporter of it. And u that's pretty nuts. And Jersey Jack does an awful lot for us, too. So, you know, we're lucky to have these Chicago based companies. Yeah, I was going to say they're local. Yeah, I was going to say they're local. I mean, it's almost like a cheat code to have your, you know, giant pinball expo in the backyard. Pretty easy to ship games over there. Yeah, it's really crazy. There's a guy Yeah, it's really crazy. There's a guy by the name of um he goes by the name of Nitro Pinball. he goes by the name of Nitro Pinball. I'm not sure if you know him in your neck of the woods. Uh he's bringing some games. He is a distributor for the games out of called Home Pin. You ever hear of Home Pin out of T? Oh, I'm familiar with Home Pen. Oh, I'm familiar with Home Pen. Okay. So, he he represents them. He Okay. So, he he represents them. He represents Bitronic. Bitronic is out in Spain, but uh he decided to get a booth this year and he's going to bring some games from both those manufacturers to the show. So, we are going to have a massive representation of pinball, uh, not only from the the domestic guys, but also a lot of these guys that you just never see them again. I mean, home pin, you never see those. No, I bet there's going to be lines No, I bet there's going to be lines around the whole building to go play some home pin games for sure. Uh, but it is amazing that that you help represent these companies. Yeah, I think it's called Blues Brothers Yeah, I think it's called Blues Brothers is the name of the homep. So, he'll he'll have that game on display. But you know, Jeeoff, we talked before we got on the air, but the one homecoming game I'm kind of looking forward to and some other people here is there's a guy from France, TD is his name. T A G T T A D E G T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T made a game called The Invaders, and that guy ship is shipping his game to Expo to join the homebrew selection. It's awesome. That's awesome. God, I hope awesome. That's awesome. God, I hope that game survives the ship. A homerew. Yeah, the homerew A homerew. Yeah, the homerew pretty well. Yeah. I mean, it's just part of a risk Yeah. I mean, it's just part of a risk of it, especially with a home pin. I mean, that's, you know, like a homebrew system. It's it's not like you have other ones that you could pull parts from for the most part, unless you happen to have built two. So, uh, but that's that's certainly, by the way, Uncle Jeff, hopefully don't by the way, Uncle Jeff, hopefully don't mind her calling Uncle Jeff. Uncle Jeff? No, I didn't realize we're Uncle Jeff? No, I didn't realize we're family now, Rob. Just a friend. Now, if you look at that Just a friend. Now, if you look at that homepage for me, at Expo homepage, and scroll down to the there's a guitar company coming to our show. If you could find that for me on the homepage, it's um it was a it's a green it was a it's a green um um What color is their logo? I'm at the I'm at the giant vendor list at the bottom currently. No, no, from the very top. Start at the No, no, from the very top. Start at the very top. Oh, it's at the very top. All right. and Oh, it's at the very top. All right. and scroll down. And then we have a little blurb with like a bumper blast. Here we go. Uh here we go. bumper blast. Here we go. Uh here we go. Cathar Cathara guitars. They're more than just guitars. These guys are out of Canada. How I These guys are out of Canada. How I found them, I don't know. These guys make uh guitars out of used pinball playfields. That's awesome. That's so cool. And That's awesome. That's so cool. And I mean they sold they sold one of their I mean they sold they sold one of their guitars to Ed Robertson from Barelegged Ladies and these I hear they're huge fans of pinball in I hear they're huge fans of pinball in fact which is I that's pretty funny. You got to make sure you see their bros that is insane. But you know I I look for these guys all the time. I reach out to a lot of guys in Europe and a lot of guys I find on Facebook and people reach out to me like this is going to be a fabulous show guys and you know there's some people out there that's you know still don't know if they should come but fans you got to try one time to see it. You won't believe it. There's so much positive energy and so much stuff you don't see at the other shows. So uh so let's that's specifically one of my so let's that's specifically one of my questions. So let me touch base on that. So I have here I'm like what do you think makes Expo different than these other shows? I mean, you just said that it's, you know, you do the research to bring in some like really interesting uh unique kind of contributors, you know. Do you think that that's what makes Pinball Expo special? Well, it's a start of it, but also the Well, it's a start of it, but also the seminars. No one does this the breath of seminars we do. I mean, we were the first ones to do the I mean, we were the first ones to do the seminars. We still do them, but we have over a hundred speakers, and that doesn't include you if we get and that doesn't include you if we get you on the airwaves next year, but 100 speakers. Nobody wants to hear me talk. Obviously, he's got a good voice. But, Obviously, he's got a good voice. But, um, I mean, it's it's crazy the number of people we have. So, that's that's pretty cool. Now, for me, I'm I'm very excited about one particular speaker. Joe Cam. Jeff, have you ever heard that name? No. The only Joe I know is Pinball No. The only Joe I know is Pinball Degenerates. And that guy's a huge jerk. I'm just kidding. I love Joe. Phil who was the guy that collaborated with Gary Stern to start data east. Okay. Yeah. So this is the data east Okay. Yeah. So this is the data east period. So he will be with Joe Gary and they'll So he will be with Joe Gary and they'll be giving a a seminar on the early years. This is like back to teaching all those early games they made at Daddy East. Sure. Sure. But Joe Cow is famous for something But Joe Cow is famous for something else. He started a company called Kapow. Okay. The pop built a game that no one Okay. The pop built a game that no one thought would ever be built, the Beatles. According to Joe, he spent a million dollars out of his own pocket to produce this game. So, anyone that's coming to Expo that wants to really learn about Joe Kamakow, he is a great guy and he's giving a seminar with um Gary Stern, you want to see this guy. He is very very take note if you're coming to pinball take note if you're coming to pinball expo go to that panel. How do you schedule these and is there a place that people can easily see where and when these times uh these panels are going on so they don't miss something if they're interested in it? Yeah, great question. So we have a Yeah, great question. So we have a schedule events on the website plus we'll have that blown up and we'll have several signage throughout this show where to go. But are there people on the floor that help are there people on the floor that help guide around if you're you know completely lost? like are there pinball expo representatives of the people that you can go speak to? How would how would someone find someone like this? It'll say staff. It'll say staff. But um there's two couple speakers I'm But um there's two couple speakers I'm very excited to hear about. But my question to you Jeff is who was the gentleman that designed Adders family? That's a Pat Lawler game, isn't it? That's a Pat Lawler game, isn't it? That is correct. So you so far you're That is correct. So you so far you're you're batting a thousand. Pat Waller designed an awful lot of games and a lot of great games. Um, like anyone else in the industry, the guy is, you know, we're all getting older, including me. Pat Lawler said last year, that was his last year, and I reached out to him and I said, Pat, please give me one more year. People, there's new guys coming to Echo every year. They want to know about you. He will be coming one uh final time. Final time. Amazing. anyone that's Final time. Amazing. anyone that's listening to this podcast, I highly recommend whether you're into Rudy or Twilight Zone. Yeah, I was about to say or his last Yeah, I was about to say or his last game Toy Story which was, you know, his egress from Jersey Jack. But Pat Lawler is a great designer and But Pat Lawler is a great designer and he will be giving his final seminar. Typically, for those that go to a seminar room, typically his seminars are always packed. So anyone that wants to meet him for one final time, get a picture with him, get his autograph, this could be the last l opportunity. So for some for a popular seminar like So for some for a popular seminar like that, is there like if the seating is full, can people stand in the back? Like what's the are you kind of so if you miss it? Exactly. Because you're there, you know, Exactly. Because you're there, you know, since you're part of the media and the press, you can you can kind of, you know, walk up front and sit down on the floor and watch it, but do like sitting on the floor. but do like sitting on the floor. Another guy that's coming who's a very Another guy that's coming who's a very very great designer is Steve Richie. So, uh, anyone that knows about his games, you know, he will be there. So, his seminars are always packed. So, these are the two of the greatest designers we've seen in the pinball world in modern history. They're both coming to Expo, which is fantastic. Joe Kamakau, who has done a tremendous amount for the IE and the industry, will be at Expo. These are some very power figureheads. And guys, these guys are not going to be around forever. Oh, you weren't kidding when you said Oh, you weren't kidding when you said that this is going to be a banger of a of a show. Yeah. Yeah. Allstar lineup. Allstar lineup. And I all I asked, someone come up to me And I all I asked, someone come up to me and said, "You know what? I'm so glad I came. I listened to that dirty pool podcast. I wasn't going to come, but I've been talking hearing you talk and you talk me into it. And I am so glad I came. I love you, Minnie, is what they're gonna say. Everybody watching my channel is already Everybody watching my channel is already going to Pinball Expo if they were going anyways, but I appreciate that. Uh Pat Arcade wants to know, are the seminars recorded or archived? Uh we have Martin Au. He's with the Uh we have Martin Au. He's with the Pinball News out of England and he's there uh uh