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Ep 150: Pinball Expo 2024 Day 1

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 6m·analyzed·Oct 18, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Expo 2024 Day 1: Metallica Vault Edition praised as Borg's best; X-Men requires careful setup tuning.

Summary

Loser Kid Pinball hosts a live recap from Pinball Expo 2024 Day 1, covering exclusive early access to Stern's new Metallica Vault Edition and X-Men gameplay. The hosts discuss Metallica's refinements over the 2013 original, praising its modern LCD animations, UV lighting effects, and overall design as Borg's best work. They also analyze X-Men's setup sensitivity issues, particularly ball hop on the left flipper and wire form inconsistencies, recommending the Pro version over Premium for most players.

Key Claims

  • Metallica Vault Edition has only 500 units produced, making it truly limited

    high confidence · Josh states 'There's only 500 of them' during discussion of LE availability

  • Metallica is Borg's best game and likely Stern's biggest seller

    high confidence · Scott: 'It's the most successful game that Borg has had. Probably.' Josh: 'I would bet that it's got to be their biggest seller.'

  • Ray Day (Raymond Davidson) is handling finishing code and additional modes for Metallica

    high confidence · Josh: 'Raymond Davidson, did a couple of extra modes, refined a little bit of the code' and 'Raymond seems to be thinking on a similar level...being able to really fine-tune that'

  • New Metallica includes eight new songs including 'Blackened' mode where Sparky flips you off

    high confidence · Josh: 'John told us he said that there's a new mode added called Blackened because there's eight new songs that are added'

  • X-Men has consistent setup issues across multiple units including ball hop on left flipper and wire form inconsistencies

    high confidence · Josh: 'All four versions I played down there...Everyone played differently' and 'each one had ball hop. That drives me absolutely nuts.'

  • Premium X-Men includes a breaking wire form hand feature that can punish good shots by sending ball down the middle

    high confidence · Josh: 'when it broke, it shoots the ball right down the middle every time. And I hate that because it's like, I made the shot and you reward me by making me punish you.'

  • Metallica LE in person looks more impressive than in photos; Premium lighting significantly enhances the game

    high confidence · Josh: 'from pictures I'm more of a green guy...but when I saw them in person, the LE is just stunning' and discussion of Premium lighting pulling the aesthetic together

  • Stern's new giant silver ball sculpture is 8+ feet tall and inspired by Chicago's 'The Bean' in Millennium Park

Notable Quotes

  • “It's Borg's best game, right? I would argue yes...This is Stern doesn't release their numbers, but I would bet that it's got to be their biggest seller.”

    Josh and Scott @ Early in Metallica discussion — Establishes Metallica Vault as landmark release; indicates commercial success confidence

  • “The lighting. It is RGBL. But the thing is, they've color-coded it so it fits the theme...they've threaded that needle. So they have used the lighting to enhance the environment of the game without making it feel Vegas-y.”

    Scott @ Metallica analysis — Specific praise for modern lighting implementation solving historical carnival-look problem

  • “I didn't think that you could get a better immersion experience than Guns N' Roses. I agree. Okay, this absolutely rivals Guns N' Roses. And I, me personally, I like Metallica more than I like Guns N' Roses.”

    Josh and Scott @ Metallica discussion — Major endorsement comparing Metallica Vault to premium JJP standard

  • “I'm telling them these are the aces in the pocket. You let your designers still innovate and design and do risks like Danger did with X-Men. Yeah. Because you don't know how it's going to be received. And then Metallica makes up the difference, right?”

    Scott @ Discussion of Stern strategy — Articulates Stern's portfolio strategy: risky innovation funded by safe blockbuster hits

  • “Each one had ball hop. That drives me absolutely nuts...And then I don't want to take shots from that flipper because—depending on how the ball hop is, you know?”

    Josh @ X-Men discussion — Documents consistent setup issue affecting player confidence and shot selection

  • “I made the shot and you reward me by making me punish you.”

    Josh @ X-Men wire form discussion — Articulates fundamental design complaint about Premium wire form mechanic

  • “If you can get the LE and you want the LE, get it. Good luck...There's only 500 of them. Yep. And so it's truly limited.”

    Scott and Josh — Confirms severe scarcity; positions LE as collectible holding value

Entities

Metallica (Vault Edition)gameJohn BorgpersonRay DaypersonX-MengameLyman SheetspersonStern PinballcompanyFlippin' Out PinballcompanyJosh Roop

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Expo 2024 Media Mixer drew large attendance; multiple vendors (Planetary Pinball, New Wave Toys) showcasing collectible accessories and replica products

    medium · Colin organized Media Mixer 2.0 described as 'packed...amazing to see how many people were there'; vendor activations documented

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Metallica Vault positioned to rival/exceed JJP's Guns N' Roses in immersion and presentation; 500 unit scarcity reinforces collector premium positioning

    high · Josh: 'This absolutely rivals Guns N' Roses...this will hold its value. And you will not be disappointed.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: X-Men exhibits consistent setup/quality issues across multiple production units: ball hop on left flipper, wire form inconsistencies, variable plunger reach

    high · Josh played all four X-Men variants: 'Everyone played differently...each one had ball hop' and documented wire form sends ball 'right down the middle every time'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Metallica band directly involved in design approval; James Hetfield consulted for game direction (analogous to Eric Wilson's Slash consultation on Guns N' Roses)

    high · Josh: 'you've got John Borg. If he needs advice, he calls off James Hetfield. And James is like the whole band's on board'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern emphasizing presentation modernization (LCD animations, UV lighting) as primary differentiator vs 2013 Metallica rather than substantive mechanical innovations

    medium · Extended discussion of LCD screen, animations, and lighting as 'what takes this Metallica to the modern era' vs gameplay refinements

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.200

0:00
thanks for tuning into loser kid pinball podcast this is episode 150 it's a big number and it's kind of a random one because we're just kind of sitting at the hotel's day one of expo uh there is a ton of games out there with me my co-captain is always scott larson and we're doing this in person it's a little different um but and josh who are we brought to by oh well that's what I was trying to get to. We're brought to you by Flippin' Out Pinball by Zach and Nicole Menny. They're here at the expo. It's been great. This whole thing has been awesome. It's kind of been a blur today because ever since we kind of got invited to Stern this morning and I showed up on time. You were there a little late and we got to hang out and play Metallica. This is what I'm getting to. So if you want to do Metallica, which looks amazing, hit up Zach and Nicole Menny. Don't ask them for an LE because apparently They're gone. You can beg for an LE. Give it a shot. Yeah. If someone drops out and they're insane, then go ahead and get the LE. But if not, get the premium because it is boss. It is amazing. So hit up Zach and Nicole Mini at Flippin' Out Pinball. Check out their website. The phone number's there. Amazing customer service. We've talked about it multiple times on here.
1:20
I think my brain's rattled because we've had so much going on today. I'll give a quick recap. Josh came in yesterday. I didn't know if I was going to be off today. So I initially had plans to fly in actually about two hours ago. It's about 1130 p.m. But because I didn't have to work today, I ended up changing my flight. And so I was able to come in, catch an 8 o'clock flight and come in right at noon. Josh was invited to, well, we were all invited to go to Stern to check out the new Metallica. and it was scheduled from about 10 o'clock until noon-ish. So Josh went and with everybody. Now, Josh, since I wasn't there, I need you to give the recap on Metallica. At least what did they tell you and how did it look? So it was interesting because like we've been to media days before with Stern and it's very much like you walk in, you press a flesh, you do a tour. And it's funny because like we got there. We were one of the first ones to get there. We got there early. I actually think we were there by like 9.30. We took pictures with the new giant silver ball outside. Like Stern's getting better and better and better. That presentation, 100%. Oh, my goodness. So we get there. We take pictures with the new silver ball. So think of the cloud. Everybody's seen the bean. Yeah, the bean. The bean. I think it's technically the cloud, but the bean in downtown Chicago, I think Millennium Park. Is that right? Something like that. Okay, this is like a small version, but this is really cool. How big is the silver ball? It's got to be at least, what, eight foot tall? Yeah, and it's also elevated probably about a foot.

medium confidence · Josh: 'It's got to be at least what? Eight foot tall?' and discussion of it being 'a small version' of the Bean with a foot elevation

@ Metallica LE discussion

  • “I would lean toward on this one—I would lean toward a Pro because it keeps the ball paths in check.”

    Josh @ X-Men tier recommendation — Professional recommendation against Premium for gameplay consistency

  • “They have the LCD screen, which the animations—the animations are awesome...the new mode with new animations, new call-outs, the band playing, it looks fantastic.”

    Scott and Josh @ Metallica technical features — Highlights modern animation capabilities as key differentiator from 2013 original

  • “If you can find a Metallica LE, get it because it's totally worth it...If you can't get the LE, get the Premium. Get the lights, the speaker lights.”

    Josh and Scott @ Final recommendations — Establishes tier hierarchy: LE preferred, Premium acceptable fallback, Pro for cost-conscious

    • person
    Scott Larsonperson
    George Gomezperson
    Zach Sharpperson
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jack Dangerperson
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Pinball Expo 2024event
    Planetary Pinballcompany
    New Wave Toyscompany
    Colinperson
    Derek Kperson
    Keith Elwinperson
  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ray Day (Raymond Davidson) confirmed as heir apparent to legacy rules/code designers at Stern; handling finishing touches on Metallica

    high · Josh: 'Raymond seems to be thinking on a similar level...Raymond is the heir apparent to rules tinkering'

  • ?

    announcement: Metallica Vault Edition officially presented at Stern media day with extensive hands-on access; 500 unit LE production confirmed

    high · Direct quotes: 'There's only 500 of them' and extensive gameplay discussion from media day attendance

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern three-tier (Pro/Premium/LE) model creating meaningful feature distribution: LE/Premium include breaking wire form; cosmetic 2D vs 3D plastics; lighting packages

    high · Detailed discussion of what distinguishes each tier and cost/value tradeoffs; recommendations vary by player type

  • ?

    product_strategy: X-Men left flipper ball hop and wire form issues addressable through post-factory adjustments (bent wires, guide repositioning)

    medium · Gomez reassured hosts: 'you can bend the wire...to get more of a straight shot onto that flipper, so there's not ball hop'

  • ?

    product_concern: X-Men Premium wire form hand mechanic problematically punishes successful shots; cosmetic 2D plastics replacing sculptures to maintain bill of material

    high · 'I made the shot and you reward me by making me punish you' and discussion of 2D plastic cost-saving measures vs Premium features

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern deliberately uses blockbuster hits (Metallica) to fund experimental designs (X-Men risk); portfolio balancing strategy communicated directly to George Gomez

    high · Scott: 'You let your designers still innovate and design and do risks like Danger did with X-Men...And then Metallica makes up the difference'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Metallica Vault uses new LCD display technology replacing classic DMD; animations and contemporary visual presentation prioritized in design

    high · Discussion of LCD enabling 'new animations, new call-outs, the band playing' and DMD comparison making old games 'look dated'

    • 3:03
    Derek, Derek that works at Stern? Yeah, I do not know how to pronounce his last name. Derek K? Derek K, yeah. So he actually did some of the weld joints that hold the ball into place. That's impressive. It's cool. We'll post a picture of us standing by it. Yes. And it's really cool looking, and it's really smart not only to market pinball because it's a giant pinball, but with the added bonus that it's in Chicago. So it's a nice little homage to the bean. Yep. So they brought us in. Since I've already been there a handful of times, they have this room in the middle of the building where it's just kind of like the game room you wish you had in your house. It's cool. It's really cool. And so they just take us straight into there because that's where Metallica is at. And some of them, some of the media people haven't been there before. So they took them on the factory tour, took them through. By the way, this episode is going to be a little sloppy.
    3:59
    A couple of things. I've been fighting a cough for like a month. And so when I'm recording and Josh is talking, I can usually mute the mic. But because we're in the same room, I am trying not to completely submarine the episode by me hacking. so i do apologize for the sound we're just we're just kind of doing a quick and quick and sloppy recap of day one just kind of kind of like a train of thought right like we're kind of it's fresh on our travelogue yeah it's fresh on our travelogue so they took me straight in others went through the factory tour there was a ton of media people shoved in that small room borg's doing interviews zach sharp's doing interviews i get my hands on metallica and And it was really cool because Borg loves this game, right? Like, he's a huge Metallica fan. It's a labor of love. And it was amazing. It's Borg's best game, right? I would argue, yes. Yeah, it's the most successful game that Borg has had. Probably, this is, Stern doesn't release their numbers, but I would bet that it's got to be their biggest seller. Probably. It also has Lyman Sheets on rules. Yep. Which Ray Day, Raymond Davidson, did a couple of extra modes, refined a little bit of the code no one better at down at stern to do that in my opinion raymond is the heir apparent i would argue is the heir apparent to uh rules tinkering and now that's pretty high praise considering the amount of talent they have at stern and they have tim saxon who has been doing this you know he's a high level competitive player too we have you know white solvin dwight sullivan who's been doing this forever you have keith elwyn whose games are consistently like top 10 of all time. Raymond seems to be thinking on a similar level, though, and being able to really fine-tune that, especially coming from a competitive matrix. And we know how important that is for the longevity of a game. Yeah. Because if a game ends up being like a one-trick pony, it ends up being a problem. So Raymond is giving the bonus code, I guess the finishing code. Is that fair to say? Yeah, he's doing the finishing code. Add a couple modes. There is – they're all shipping on family mode, but there is – they had them turned off. So I was like, wait, what did the game just say to me? Which it was great. And you could just – I love it when it's a passion project, right? And you can tell from Borg this is a passion project. He loves Metallica. It's a music thing. It's a pinball thing. So he's walking us through it, telling us some of the stories, and I think we'll get him on here soon. So I'm not going to, like, recount all of his stories because I don't feel like we have enough time to do that today. But just the little details that they've added to this game that I didn't realize that some of the shots have been adjusted a little bit. The ramps are a little bit shorter in some areas. It still flows and plays. It feels like Metallica. It's Metallica. But like any vault edition, they have said this repeatedly, like any vault edition, they are going to fix things that they have perceived don't work in the in the previous game and including adjusting some shots. Yes. You know, we're talking millimeters. Yeah. Because if you to to my eye, I look at it and looks like Metallica. Yeah, it is. And it shoots like Metallica. Right. So it doesn't feel like they have changed much. The only thing they've done is refined it. Yep. Well, and they've added like that giant billboard in the back behind Sparky. It's really cool. It's amazing. You're lighting up letters. Sparky's now a skeleton instead of the dude from the original.
    7:45
    It sounded like the same Sparky to me. Someone asked if Brandon Smalls was still doing the voices. I'm not for sure. and we kind of missed the seminar because we still hung out at Stern after Borg did his seminar one today.
    7:58
    Well, okay, so Josh was able to do that. I fly in at, you know, I land at 12.15 and I text him. I'm like, hey, okay, so I land. Are they still okay at Stern or should I go to the seminar? And Zach was like, yeah, come on over. So I came over and we ended up playing for another hour probably. Yeah, something like that. And so that was great. It was actually really great because we kind of got exclusive access because a lot of the other people had left. Yeah. So we had our time alone with that. We also got some time on X-Men. Yep. We got some time on X-Men Pro, which I hadn't played. I had played the LE. Yeah. and um but so we'll talk we'll get to all that stuff but okay so getting back to metallica what are the things josh that you thought they compare and contrast so this is a high school essay okay so you have metallica from uh when did metallica come out 20 years ago 2013 okay so so 11 years ago and compare and contrast that metallica versus this metallica why should people sell their old metallica and buy this game because they should i don't think i have to convince you and i know a lot of people like there are some people they've already mentioned to me that are upset they didn't do a pro version for this metallica but let's be honest stern looks at this is like the pros for location the premiums for the collector for the the person that wants it all and then the the le is for the elitist right like um and so they're they're gearing this all towards collectors and looking at the old metallica le i never felt like it was worth going from the pro to the le this one is so well refined if you're looking for that that extra bling and the bells and whistles it's definitely worth it the premium is just as good and you can add the premium lighting in and really the premium lighting pulls this together it shocks me how much of you know it's funny because someone has a there's there's a handful of metallica pros down on the floor and i'm looking at this and it's weird because it's the same game but it feels dated yeah 100 and so the dmd so anytime you have a dmd and this is this is my argument when they talk about doing uh like a vault edition and redoing the dmd yeah the the problem is it's going to look dated just because of the presentation so the the factors that take this metallica to the modern era would be one they have the lcd uh screen which the animations are awesome yes yeah the animations are great and in some ways i was sorry i was even talking to ray day a little bit and he's so excited to talk about this and we we're gonna have him on but we even mentioned you know there's some things that are really kind of funny about the old dot matrix like when the snake eats the ball it's it's a great look yeah um and it's like you know doing like a consider that would be a an idea to like do like a retro mode or something like that so it kicks that in but the new mode with new animations New call-outs, the band playing, it looks fantastic. Also, the old games, they all look dark. Don't they now? They do. When you compare a new game to an old game, it is like night and day. And I'm intentionally using that metaphor because it does feel like the old games are so dark. what I love about this game too the lighting it is RGLB but the thing is they've color coded it so it fits the theme this has always been my complaint and we've talked about this when something looks like a carnival game or a slot machine for some reason the colors don't look exactly correct with the way Stern has been able to do it, they seem to have threaded that needle so they have used the lighting to enhance the environment of the game without making it feel Vegas-y.
    12:26
    No, I agree. Overall, an amazing game. I'm on the fence of like, you know, I'm just kind of holding out on Elwins. Elwins is kind of my jam. that I feel like he's the most bang for your buck right now.
    12:42
    You know, Metallica's making me like, I'm like, I know Owen's up here soon, right? But this Metallica, holy crap. Like, I don't know. I really want this Metallica. And I don't feel, I didn't feel that way. When they said they were remaking Metallica, I'm like, oh, it's a good game. Yeah, well, okay. When I say, it was more of,
    13:03
    they made so many pros, okay? Pro was the jam. And when people complain about their not being a pro, I would argue there are pros. There's 10,000 of them out there that you could buy. And if you really wanted to buy it and put like – Yeah, I saw like three pop up today because of this. If you could buy it, you can, and you can put some brighter lights in there and make it still a very similar feel, okay? Yeah. but you have to remember for stern to do a pro versus a premium, there is a bill of material that they, so they would have to pull stuff out. When you look at this game, what would you want to pull out? Like you, you could arguably maybe pull out the hammer, but maybe they fixed the hammer. That was one of the big problems with the other one. This hammer looks, so it looks good. It looks amazing. And the fact is good. Well, and to show that the hammer's lit for lock, there's a key projected by the UV. It's the UV paint in the play field. The black light shines on it, and you know, oh, I got to shoot that key to get the lock. It is insanely cool. The black light on this thing, the whole game shuts off, goes into reds, UV, and all of a sudden Sparky turns into a skeleton. I hit Sparky, and it was like that mode. It's really cool looking. Go find a video of it. Find Sparky lighting up. It looks really cool. John told us, he said that there's a new mode added called Blacken, because there's eight new songs that are added. And by the time you get to Blacken, you've shocked Sparky a couple of times. And I guess he's not happy with you by the time you get to Blacken, because he flips you off.
    14:53
    And then all the band members just kind of laugh and shock him again. You know, he just – really, this game – here's the thing, Stern. I know you're listening.
    15:04
    I told Gomez this personally. These are aces in the pocket, right? We've talked about these for years. You've got Metallica. You've got Lord of the Rings. Spider-Man, if you do Spider-Man right. Absolutely. Lord of the Rings would be a home run with this. Could you imagine getting – like doing that? Oh, my goodness. That's what everybody loved about Hobbit was the immersion factor. Yep. And that's what, uh, okay. Could you imagine Tron? Yeah. Oh my goodness. So that's what JJP has always had the leg up. We've talked about that presentation and immersion. Okay. I didn't think that you could get a better immersion experience than guns and roses. I agree. Okay. This absolutely rivals guns and roses. And I, me personally, I like Metallica more than I like guns and roses. I think Metallica is a better shooting game. Yeah, I think it's also a better shooting game. Yes.
    16:02
    There's a lot of really cool effects that they did with Guns N' Roses. Just Metallica, it's a leaner, cleaner shooter, and that's just because also of the era it was designed. It was designed, and it's a board game, and so it typically doesn't have tons of bells and whistles. it's more of a like a brutal shooter and so it feels very thematically consistent with the band yeah and and this presentation takes that to the next level and brings it to the modern era well it helps too so like we had this with guns and roses right like right eric needs advice from what the band wanted in the game he called up slash right you've got john borg if he needs advice he calls off james hetfield and james is like the whole band's on board right they love this and seriously looking over this game it's funny because from pictures i'm more of a green guy So the premium, I actually liked more in the pictures. But when I saw them in person, the LE is just stunning. The LE is stunning, but you can't go wrong. If you can get the LE and you want the LE, get it. Good luck. Yeah, good luck. And you can get it, yes. There's only 500 of them. Yep. And so it's truly limited. Well, and honestly, what, half of them? May not half go overseas, but you've got a good chunk. If you can get a hold of this and this is something you're interested in, this will hold its value. And you will not be disappointed. No. Honestly, I think if you've been holding out all year. Right. Well, this goes back to the Gomez thing, right? Right. So I'm telling them these are the aces in the pocket. You let your designers still innovate and design and do risks like Danger did with X-Men. Yeah. Because you don't know how it's going to be received. And then Metallica makes up the difference, right? Or if you have a whole home run, you just have a nice Christmas. You know what I'm saying? But when you stumble and you have like, I mean, not to bag on Wick, but Wick has not been very well received. WIC is a solid game. It's a solid game. It's not going to move the needle the same. It's just not.
    18:08
    From a marketing standpoint, WIC would be in the C theme, and there's nothing wrong with that. Even Borg's talked about, hey, we are successful. We can take risks. We can take flyers on different themes that may not have the same mass appeal. And he even talked about that during the WIC seminar. so it's not surprising that metallica is going to have the the appeal that it does have right yep um okay let's move on to x-men because i think yes metallica seriously if you want one get a hold of zach and nicole yeah they will hook you up with a premium and and even tell them loser kids send them your way and they'll give you a little extra too that's what zach was telling me today so just just do i don't know there's a discount code loser kid but you know okay they In all sincerity, we bought out all games through them, and they've been so good to us. Oh, yes. And the good news is, get it. If you can't get the LE, get the premium.
    19:10
    Get the lights, the speaker lights. Get the enhancement. And you can actually have a really good, still a great game. Yep. That's one thing that Stern has done a really good job in that the LE does give you more if you are willing to pay the money. If you don't want to pay that money and you still want to get the premium and put in the extras, add $1,000, put in the extras, it's still really good. And it's solid 100%. That's probably what I'm looking at getting a premium. I really am. And by the way, I was not interested in having Metallica before. it sells you get your hands on it sold me sold me so as far as x-men you've played this before we've discussed this so i don't want to rehash this for too long okay this is my first time hands-on yeah so you played the pro i played all four of the games there they had the premium and the l yes what i've decided about x-men is this game if you're buying this game you need to make sure it's set up perfect yes all four versions i played down there so there's only three versions but there was four games. Everyone played differently. Yep. And they were just a little enough difference that it annoyed me. I love this game. I think the shots are fantastic. It annoyed you when it wasn't set up. Correct. It annoyed me that it seemed, okay.
    20:37
    So the first, okay. The first one I played, the plunger didn't go all the way around. And so it's annoying because to do the, the skill shots, you got to plunge it as hard as you can all the way around. and you got to shoot the ramps there's like two or three shots it's it's it reminds me a little bit of avengers yeah yep avengers infinity quest where if this is how i shoot i shoot avengers i don't like the short plunge i usually just hit the button shoot it around and then hit start tower yep so so that's a similar type of special like skill shot that's what you're saying so that was one of them one of them the left it was different in each game and but it was consistent so it concerns me a little bit and i pointed this out to gomez as well the left flipper has ball hop and it's hard i i'm i don't know a single person that likes ball hop he reassured me you can move the the the lane the the guide because it's a wire form on the left side on the right side it's your typical metal plate that leads to your flipper on the left side because there's no uh sling Sling on the left side, it's kind of a gate.
    21:49
    He said you can bend the wire for him to get more of a straight shot onto that flipper, so there's not ball hop.
    21:55
    I'm going off of faith, okay? But each one had ball hop. That drives me absolutely nuts. And then I don't want to take shots from that flipper because – depending on how the ball hop is, you know? You can trap up, take shots. the one thing that was consistent on all of them is on the premium and on the LE the wire form when it breaks on that right side from that hand it shots the ball right down the middle every time and I hate that because it's like I made the shot and you reward me by making me punish you I will say when I played it when I played the LE about a month ago um it felt like i when it broke it it still was able to get to the right flipper so it didn't it didn't drain as much now i wasn't playing it i was playing in a very controlled setting i wasn't playing with a lot of people so i don't know how like it changes over time yeah but that is something to consider right if you're considering buying the game this is one thing you always need to look at what are the features that the differences between the pro and the premium well in le really and what makes a difference what makes a difference yeah and this could be one of the situations where like teenage mutant ninja turtles where the ball paths on the pro are there. Yep. Right? Yep. You're not getting any extra, but the only extra ball path you may get is a, is the hand coming down and breaking it, which is a cool effect. It is, but it may, you may not like that as a player because it can feel unfair.
    23:45
    So one more thing too, and this only happened on one version. I think this is adjustable. So the cerebral walk is right above the left flipper. and the ball comes in and with most wire forms you kind of hit something it kind of stops the ball and drops it just directly above the flipper with one of them it kind of shot like through the wire form past the flipper into the out right down the middle and so i know that's an adjustment thing i know you can because it was only doing it with one but that's that's the thing is like other than okay those are just all like little tweaks right like that's you're gonna have these like fresh out of the box i had it with avengers i had to do so much tweaking with avengers once it was finally you have to bend that captain marvel around because otherwise it just well i had to bend the cross ramp that comes across the whole play field because the ball was falling off i mean they're just a little stuff like that what and it's annoying don't get me wrong it's annoying for the first 20 30 games that you play and you're tweaking and doing and then once you get dialed and you love it right i think if you get this game if you've been sitting on the fence and you get this game and you get it dialed in you're gonna love it you shoot these shots and it's just like what happened i gotta do that again and it's fast don't get me wrong if you like borgs if you like uh richie's it's fast but the ball paths are long because remember we like i i've pointed this out that even though it's fast the ball paths typically follow like a longer trajectory True, but I still feel like even following – it's not like Godzilla long. Like Godzilla long, you shoot a shot and you're like, I can watch the ball come back. This is still – it goes so fast, it's almost like, did that just happen? If you miss it, it's going to kill you. Yeah. It's going to punish you. Okay, so Josh, you've played both. Would you lean – what would inspire you to buy a pro or a premium on X-Men? Me, personally, 100% pro. You just go pro. I go pro because that premium breaking wire form, I guess if you get dialed in, sure. I just don't like that kind of punishment. I don't. And it's a cool effect, but I, you do have to look at the trade off, right? Is it worth a few thousand dollars? And, and you, and in the, the only difference really, um, mechanically beside the wire form breaking is you have that like hammer, very target, which is not, It's not really a physical very target. It's kind of a simulated, I guess. I'm not exactly sure how they calculate that in, but the shot's still there. The beast lab. Yeah, the shot's still there. It's either an Elvira Leaper Jumper or it's a very target, like you said. Yeah. So really, and then the finger on the wire form really doesn't do a ton for you. I don't really. It's cosmetic. I really don't think. Well, it stops the ball and stuff, but I didn't really feel like it. Yeah. I just don't feel like the value between the pro to the premium is justified. That's me personally. I talked to multiple people today that said premium all the way. It's the only way they go. Me personally, if you're looking for the way I play, I like to play for score. I like to explore the game, but I like to get a high score too. I might not be like Tom Graff, Travis Murray, Escher Lefkoff level, but I can hold my own. And so that's how I play pinball. So if you're looking for a perspective of how you play, me, you can take that with you.
    27:16
    Now, there are people who just prefer pros. Like my buddy Garrett Ledger, he likes pro Godzilla. He actually does not like the premium Godzilla, which blows my mind. Yeah, it blows my mind, but he's like, no, that's my thing. And I would lean toward on this one. I would lean toward a pro because it keeps the ball paths in check. And you are missing some cosmetic features. Like the hands are, they're like the, you know, they're 2D plastics. And that's one way that Stern consistently is able to keep costs down where they can do a 2D plastic in an area that – and they did a similar thing really on Iron Maiden where Iron Maiden, the Eddie sculptures, they're sculptures in the premium. They're 2D plastics in the pro. And every little thing that helps keep the bill of material down is going to affect this. And I would argue the same thing about John Wick. Yeah. John Wick, if you look at the pros versus the premiums, the pro actually has a great ball path that is consistent with the premium. And if you're considering like a John Wick, I would suggest the pro. Yeah. Like save some money, get the pro. Well, that crate's annoying on the premium. The crate, it's different. Yeah. Well, it's – I play the brutal one today that was set up for the Stern Pro Circuit. Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's why I'm a little tarnished on it right now. I played it both ways and I thought it was fine. Yeah, it was fine when it said I'm not so brutal.
    28:59
    But it is different. Now, so fast forwarding, we actually played it in Terium tonight and all the games were brutal. Yeah. Hold on, someone's ringing the doorbell. Okay, just a second. Hold on. Okay.
    29:15
    Yeah, so getting back to it, I would say X-Men. I would highly suggest getting the Pro. And I would argue the same thing about WIC. If you can find a Metallica LE, get it because it's totally worth it. Yeah, I agree.
    29:31
    So we stayed at Stern until about 3.30. Okay. And then we pretty much came back to the convention for maybe 30 minutes. And then we got ready. Well, I guess we were here for more like an hour and a half. But then we went to the Media Mixer. I left my wallet at Stern. so I had to go back to CERN to get my wallet that was kind of funny it was like ringing so anyway got that picked them up we went to the medium mixer which was a lot of fun so Colin from Kinesis slash This Week in Pinball put on a medium mixer he did it last year this was 2.0 it was packed it was amazing to see how many people were there shout out to Erica's Pinball Journey too if you haven't checked out her channel. You got to go check that out on YouTube. I got a raffle ticket and immediately lost it because I thought it was a drink ticket. I may have won something, but I have no idea because I didn't have my ticket. Also, shout out to Planetary Pinball and to... What is the name of the... Well, there was a lot of ABBA stuff. There was Alien. Planetary Pinball gave everyone that showed up this neat little keychain. I wish I had it. But this little keychain was from Planetary Pinball and another company. I wish I could hear. The problem was it was so loud in there. The gentleman that was there got on the mic to talk about what they were doing. So the sticker right here. So new wave toys. Yeah, this is awesome. It's called replicated amusement. So check this sucker out. This is heavy.
    31:06
    This is heavy. I could assault someone with this because it's super heavy. It's a little pull tab, and then you push the button. yeah so those that aren't watching right or watching the youtube right now it is the illuminated it's the quarter slot on the coin door of a pinball machine it's actually illuminated it's really cool i'm super excited about this i have no idea what these cost but they this is this is the stuff that's cool not like the plastic injection yeah this stuff it has some weight and it feels like it's an actual coin door feels like they ripped it off the coin door i was like and we're putting a keychain on this yeah i'm not kidding this thing is i think this is this has to be like steel i think this is new wave toys.com i want which it makes me curious if if planetary and new wave was doing this together i wish i could hear he was so hard to hear oh yeah it was he was announcing something i don't know if it was a partnership with to do stuff with cgc don't start quoting me let's not throw out rumors actually reach out and find out because he was making an announcement but just the mic wasn't working very well. So that went well. We had a 21 man stall ball. Yep. And yours truly. I got out on bond because I tried three times to get the underwater shot. The scuba shot. It finally like bricked me. And let me remind you this was Stern Pro Circuit set up machines. Yeah. You couldn't bump. Oh my goodness. And I was I wanted that 21 bucks man and josh got it i got it it was he did fill out all the w-2 forms for tax purposes i also got a i want a t-shirt too a fun house rudy's nightmare there you go yeah it was pretty cool wonderful it was really cool to mix and mingle this year was not only just media but it was fans of the show shout out to the fans that showed up i mean it's okay one we're we are deeply honored that anybody comes and one, they feel like they're part of the conversation. And so we super super happy And we had a guy come up from Brazil who was really awesome came up a guy from Seattle And I don want to say your names but you know you guys did such a good job of, like, just coming and making us feel good and making us feel like what we're doing matters. So we appreciate that so much. I'm going to shout out Ben from Stern, though, the gentleman that's over at Inside Connected, one of two. Is it only two that do Inside Connected? Yeah. and uh was joe the name of the other guy that was yeah joe uh joe works with zach uh for um uh for marketing yeah yeah they great they were so great helping out but it was really cool to have these people like wait a minute you're with loser kid yeah and and a lot of you don't watch the podcast so i get up be like speak to me first so i can figure out which one you are so i'm glad that our voices are different enough because yeah sometimes we have we have podcasts and they both sound similar. It's a little awkward. But it was really cool to be there. And then we got back to, after that was like three hours of our time.
    34:18
    Also shout out to Jen Rupert and her husband now, Kyle. They just barely got married. If you haven't checked out, Jen, what is Jen's channel? It's just blanked my mind. She's on TikTok. She's on YouTube. She's on Facebook. Super fun. Jen is awesome. Jen is great. But we get back And a lot of you have been asking For Alice video and I only got about an hour Or an hour a minute and a half I'm going to try to see if I can get a little bit more Because I know it's kind of high in demand But we got on Alice Okay first take First take It's a decent game for A 90s rehash And I want to say rehash I don't know it's weird Okay the shots are very wide. It shocks me. I'm used to, well, we just came off of Metallica and X-Men where you got to know your shots. They're not as forgiving, right? You got to dial in. I felt like on Alice, if the flippers were turned up, I'd be hitting everything all the time. Maybe. The only thing that was really even questionably challenging was the far left, there's kind of like this Metallica shot, like the up into the target yeah uh but this one loops around instead of hitting a target that's really the only thing i felt was challenging the upper play field was disabled for us right yeah so the only thing that i wanted to do was get on the upper play field and you did it and i did and i was trying to activate so maybe it was just was disabled or maybe i couldn't activate it i this could be easier because i i only we only played two balls yeah that's true so and and Thankfully, actually, I appreciate that they only put on two balls because otherwise the lines would have been huge. Oh, yeah. So we'll play it again. I'll give my first take, though.
    36:10
    Visually, this game looks really good. It does look really good. It's pretty. The cat topper is great with the eyes that move. I took some video of it. It's really impressive. They have laser cut armor on the side that illuminates. Shout out to Davey Price. Stumbler Mods, man. No. Yeah. Such a great incorporation. So this actually reminds me of back in the day when I customized my Tron. That was a big thing that we were trying to do was do like laser cut armor and then illuminate it. That was, by the way, kind of a pain to do. We were able to do it, but – and so think about it visually. So the sculpts are great. They look really good. The paint looks great. Now, I'm going to readdress the cartoon, okay?
    37:11
    You know what? Our first take was basically on the pictures that we saw. I will say that it seems less overtly adult adjacent than on the initial pictures. I would say that this actually reminds me a little bit more of Daphne from Dragon's Lair. Okay, yeah. Yeah, so, okay, we're obviously talking someone who is very, you know, think Jessica Rabbit. Think like, like she, okay, she's very curvy and, and yes, things are covered, but they are kind of suggestive. I would argue though, it, it didn't seem, you know, it seemed cartoonish to me. It didn't seem to be awkward. And, and I was concerned about that, but you look at the art, it's obvious that these are, this is a re-imagining of the Alice story. Yeah. So all the characters, one are adult, two, they are. Okay. yes there are some areas that are less uh that are more revealing than others yeah it still felt um if if that's not your thing that's fine i understand however it didn't feel awkward and that's and that's not something that i would i would put like that type of theme is not something that's going to go in my in my basement but i can also understand that being it was it was more casually accepting than I thought it was going to be. So visually, I thought it was a good shot. I think if you're looking for John Papaduke games of old,
    38:57
    like Bally Williams, I still feel like this misses the mark a little bit. I haven't even gotten to the play yet. As far as the artwork, Tony from Eclectic Gamers, I'm not going to re-say what you said, but now I can't unsee the upper play field. If you want to know what they said, go listen to their most recent episode. It's not as obvious looking at it in person. I'll put that out. It's not as obvious. It's very subtle, and you can unsee it. You can't. But since we're a family-friendly podcast, we're going to leave it to Collected Gamers. Yeah, you can go check out a Collected Gamers at Dennis and Tony. Okay, but Josh, did you feel that at least the art package, Yeah, it felt like cartoonish, maybe risque, but it didn't feel... It did make me laugh to see that they had... The one thing that we all complained about, right? Like the side art that's not realistic of Alice on the side of the cab.
    39:55
    They were selling that as a t-shirt. Okay. I will also argue that European styles and standards are different than typical stereotypical American, I guess. Okay, so now let's go to gameplay. Okay. I thought the flippers felt pretty good. Yeah, they felt good. The shots, though, it was a little more vague to find. You're right. I wasn't exactly sure what the shots did. There seemed to be a lot of open territory that I was shooting that didn't have, like, a designated ball path. Yeah. You know, like there's a target here and there's a pop-up here. But usually when you see a game, you can visualize the ball paths pretty fast. I didn't know exactly where I was supposed to be shooting in this. I did get to the upper play field, and that totally could be user error, that maybe those things are – so we're going to try them again tomorrow. I felt like as far as gameplay goes, there really was only – four ball paths yeah so there if we start at the right there's kind of like an orbit that goes up through the pops and sometimes it rejected a lot on me and come back i don't know if that's part of the game or whatever and then to the left of that there's a scoop so that's not really a ball path but think of like the proximity of adam's family's electric chair just mirrored onto the other side right at the middle is the ramp i'm trying to think where did the ramp go so the ramp went up um i think it came back to the left yeah it did it circled around to the left side or to the right and then you could uh there was a buck that got it was the buck that got up to the upper play field or was it the um ramp i i can't remember i can't remember and there was kind of pop bumpers back in there too on that shot and there was a there was a step there was a pop-up target that was kind of in between the pop or the the pop-up or the pops the the upper playfield was less uh was it was smaller than i thought it was going to be like when you look at the pictures you feel that the the upper playfield visually takes up two-thirds of what you're seeing i'd say it's it's smaller but it was still along the realm of like shrek yeah like the mini pinball mode and in shrek or family guy so it still took up a big percentage of the visual space but it didn't feel like it was overwhelming not only visually when you take up that space above right you can't do much you don't know vertically either yeah you don't know what so you can't add in ramps and stuff either i just feel like this design even when papa duke unveiled it in foam core 15 years ago has it been that long 10 years ago yeah it wasn't refined i'll put it that way but still i don't feel like it would have been groundbreaking at that time no and it's definitely not groundbreaking now my thought process is if you're looking for a unique game they're only making 500 of these if you're looking for uh i just i don't know like i'm really torn on this because i kind of feel the same way as egp with tony is like we need to stop funding these projects because like really okay but do we rosa alice okay you shouldn't be supporting this you're talking fruit of the poison tree yeah okay yeah and this is basically all stemming from john papaduke and there's a lot of baggage there's a lot of baggage with with john papaduke and the path that he has taken well and i agree that like at some point you've got to separate the art from the artist right and we went through this before right and if you guys want to look up John Trudeau, you can.
    44:08
    But he designed a lot of games. Some really classic games. There are some people who decided they didn't want to support his failings. And I'm being intentionally vague, but by no means am I endorsing anything that he's done. It was terrible. But it is a team project. And so I have Black Rose. I still have Black Rose. um some i would love creature from the black lagoon so yeah i would still own that game and it goes but so there are a lot of things that go into this now so can you make the same argument with the john papaduke game that i think they're still selling they're still selling i think alice is a different story because it was essentially bought up by dutch yeah i don't know much from the film court of this i don't feel like there was much of a change but there was there had been some tweaking right like we all know that like magic girl didn't shoot when it got out of the box we know that rosa had a lot of tweaking and stuff like that still doesn't shoot yeah and so i think out of all the papaduke games that have come out in the last five years this is probably the best one out of the box probably and now i will argue that as long as there are you know this is a market driven economy supply and demand and so if there's enough demand for something like this, then someone will supply it. So is it bad that Dutch is, is producing this game that they're obviously making a calculated risk because they didn't take money for it pre. So they're making a calculated risk that they can sell enough of these to recoup their investment costs and likely use that money for capital to do other stuff.
    45:59
    I don't know. It's going to be interesting to see how this one pans out. I think you need to get your hands on this game if you're remotely interested. You need to play it. Definitely play it. Pretty. It is a pretty game. I will tell you this. It's not going into my collection. It does not tick all the boxes. It wouldn't go into mine. But there are people who like games that you can't play anywhere else. That's true. And once these are all gone, they're gone. Yeah.
    46:29
    Speaking of which, let's move on from Alice. Where else did we hit? We hit. We, okay. We played Scooby. Scooby-Doo. And we also played Looney Tunes. Yes. Okay. Uh, Looney Tunes by far is Spooky's best shooter. I feel like it is very refined. Yeah. Shots feel good. Um, and it, it feels on par with what you're looking for, for a modern day pinball layout. Um, for me, it played long. It did. Um, it felt safe. Yeah. Uh, I don't think that Spooky is not really known for, having a super challenging competitively they're not tournament games yeah but i think but they're they are they're thematically consistent with what they're trying to accomplish i think though like with looney tunes i think if you made a little steeper you took some rubbers out you could i think it it filmed the problem is it didn't feel like a modern day pin but it's because it was so slow yeah and i think i don't know if that's uh that's a conscious decision because you're at expo and when people feel like they're blowing up the game they want to own it more versus if it kicks their butt they're like well i never want to walk back at this i don't i just i've played spookies before they feel a lot faster and stuff so this felt good though and i would say that was a it was a loony loony tunes the theme uh it was consistent with the theme yeah the game flow felt like that and i i know that's kind of a vague odd thing to say yeah but it's it's getting back to metallica when i said like metallica it is an aggressive band and so when you're playing the pin you kind of want to feel that aggressive um challenging thing and looney do it's fun right yeah you're you're playing with you and this is something you possibly could play with your kids and this is what now that's not mean it's like i still drained a ball or two yeah but i i would say with with josh and my skills we still were able to on the game that we played and that's always the caveat we were able to have some some long time so we were able to see a lot of the game yeah um still trying to figure some some of the shots were less uh predictive just because they had some paths that i was still trying to figure out yeah but i thought it was that was solid like i liked it and the last time i played a spooky game was halloween which i didn't like i just didn't like the way it shot i agree um but this one just feel felt good and then we also went over and played scooby-doo for a little bit scooby was interesting it's a long player long player i think it still was that whole like it's it's sloped a little lean so that way it can uh be a little easier shooter uh it is a wide body um i just i finally had to trap up and read the screen i didn't understand what was going on i was stuck in a mode i'm like what the heck is going on uh i shoot it i shoot a shot and the white arrow turns red and it's on me i'm like what is going on uh and i didn't really feel in danger in this game very often and I think we kind of kind of just walked away from it well okay we now we walked away also because we were trying to yeah we trying to hit everything We trying to hit everything And we we want to record tonight So that that why And we only played two balls of magic girls too So that you know we we're always trying to caveat to saying we're trying to build experiences so we can talk to you guys about that. Yeah. I think honestly I like spooky games. I feel like they're going in a positive direction. I'm excited to see what they have coming up. They're trending up. I would say they're trending up solid for what they are trying to do. Yep. And speaking of companies that may not be trending up, I don't know if I should put it that way. Okay. You're right.
    50:32
    We went and played American Pinball and we played Barry O's Barbecue and I did. We kind of started on Valhalla and I haven't played Barry O's Barbecue yet. And I've been intrigued because you don't see this game very much anywhere. And so I got time on it. And the first thing America needs to do across the board is fix the flippers. I don't know if it's the show flippers. I know they swore they fixed the flippers before. They felt mushy on Valhalla. They felt mushy on barbecue. They just, the problem is we've been playing Stern all day. We've been playing JJPs. Like I played avatar. It was fantastic.
    51:13
    It just, it felt very mushy. Best way that I could put it. And I'm playing barbecue. And don't get me wrong. I was enjoying the code. I think Steve Bowden has done a wonderful job.
    51:30
    But it just. It's safe. If you look at the layout and this is the challenge that we've had. Yeah. They started off with something quite interesting with with Houdini. Yeah. And then they made a jump to Oktoberfest, which was a risk. It was different. Yeah. And it just seems like they're taking safer and safer play fields.
    52:05
    And for them to become a player with other manufacturers, I think you need to take some risks. Yeah. And the layouts, if you look at Hot Wheels and if you look at Berrios, they're very similar layouts. You have the cluster in the middle, and you have some ramps, and it's almost mirrored almost, and you have a very samey feel. and if you're going to make that next leap i think you need to start challenging people and challenging the layouts a little more i think honestly a lot of the fixes could come from amping up those flippers yeah well flippers are a big deal and we've talked about this with jjp and that the with elton john that's the first time the flippers have felt snappy yeah and and we did confirm that there's a lot of games in the past that you can upgrade the flippers or at least i think the only one you can't swizzard of oz the only one you can't swizzard which is is fine because wizard of oz it's it's kind of an older like thematically consistent it's not supposed to be like a a brutal game well even the scoring is pretty low on it too so it feels more of a classic yeah it's just it's supposed to feel more like that so so the they have taken that up yeah so it so i would argue that my my friendly advice on american pinball is they need to take some risks consistent with that risk of moving forward the the challenge that i had with galactic tank force is they did take some risks thankfully okay they took some risks it felt a little bit more of risking an 80s retro feel and there are lots of gotley vibes in that layout uh which hey great You took a risk. That's not the risks that I think will make you sell more machines, though. I think the other thing, too, is it's weird to think about this, but I feel like Barrio's barbecue is not cohesive. And the reason I say that is because you get like grilling meat, like realistic grilling meat on the back glass. And then I can't remember what part this is, but it just sticks out so prominently in my mind. on the LCD, there's a hand-drawn barbecuer. Yeah. And I swear a fifth grader drew this thing. And it's got, like, rockets on it, and it's slowly, like, landing inside the barbecue thing. Okay, are you saying, like, the play field, like, on the play field? No, this is on the LCD. Oh, it's on the LCD. And I just, you go from a realistic meat grilling to something that looks like a fifth grader made. So it's like sketch art. Yeah, it's almost like sketch art. So you're saying the artistic direction wasn't consistent across all platforms. But then you have like professional cartoon, like the cartoon that they've done for the play field. It just, this project just doesn't feel cohesive.
    55:30
    Honestly, Steve Bowden, you killed it on code. I really enjoyed what was going on, even though I didn't get some of it, but it was one game. It still feels like American's a work in progress. Yes. I'm hoping they can take that next step.
    55:47
    There is something that is, they're not able to compete currently on the same level as the other manufacturers and whether or not that's manufacturing at volume or taking a play field risk that drives volume and drives people to try them out. there does seem to be something that needs to be adjusted for them to take the next step in the future. And I'm, here's the thing. If the rumors are true and the next game is cuphead, I'm excited to see it. I want to see, take risks, show us stuff. Yeah. I'm excited to see Ryan's first game. Ryan McClass, Glenn's classical. Dude, it's late. It's it's any, you know, Ryan's first game, the gentleman, McQuaid, dude, it's, It's been a long day. Trust me. Okay. But I'm excited to see his first game. I do enjoy Cuphead as a theme. I just, I want, I want to see pinball companies succeed. Right. And I feel like at some point, you just, you got to start doing something different, right? Yeah. and so i just i feel like the last couple of releases from american have not hit the mark and i feel bad too because it's like dennis nordman if you didn't read his facebook post he's close that he's frustrated yeah he's frustrated that things are being portrayed differently than how it happened well according to dennis so yeah there's three sides to every story right there's one side that you know there's two sides and then probably somewhere in the truth so there's yeah in the middle yeah in the middle and um okay but it does show that there's a couple things one it shows that american pinball is interested yeah in doing something because they are trying different things and and you know what great i'm i hope they here's my wish for christmas is i hope they have enough time to find their lane it seems like spooky has found their lane it's it's a different lane than stern like stern is the high volume gorilla jjp they have found their lane they found their lane in really pretty pinball machines that are visually stunning and thematically emerging like immersive and so spooky's found their lane i'm wondering what american pinball's lane is and they they've got to find it right like it's becoming more and more apparent to me like you need to figure out your niche within the niche right i'll leave you with this story because we're in an hour and um i just i feel like it's kind of time to wrap up so we can go to sleep yeah but um i'm gonna leave you with this story before i left for pinball expo the day before i left um i went on my final call for my heating and air conditioning job and i show up and i'm fixing the guy's furnace and um we get talking pinball because i'm about to leave for expo and it's kind of that's all my mind right now and the gentleman looks at me granted i live in a town of 30 000 people there's not really much around us if you live in the basin you live in the basin outside the basin once you get past the mountains you have to go through a lot to get to another city right and so there's not really much around us we don't we have an attack from ours at one bar we have like a south park at another there's not a ton of pinball out where i'm available so the guy i talk talk start talking pinball and the guy's eyes just light up and he's like you play pinball like yeah and he goes i own pinball machines he's like i'm like you do what do you what do you have and i just assume a lot of people in my area that buy pinball machines find it on our local craigslist which is called ksl and they just kind of buy what's on there and And they stick it in their home and they don't think twice about it, right?
    59:50
    But he's like, I've got a hook and I bought Venom. And that kind of boggled my mind for a second because don't get me wrong. Venom, it's an enjoyable game. I played it while I was at his house. He has the premium.
    60:05
    I asked him, why did you pick Venom? And he feels like he's enough into the hobby. He bought it solely for the theme. He loves comic books. The man cave I worked on with his furnace, I was fixing comic books lying through the whole room. Right. And it dawns on me more and more and more theme is King, right? Theme is King. That's what draws you in first. And it's funny because like you listening to us, you know, that venom is, it's not the best game that Stern has put out in the last. It's a C it's a C theme, which I would argue Godzilla is also a C. By the way, by me saying C themes, I'm just saying I'm really talking about marketability.
    60:53
    It's a very niche area. And I would argue the X one is probably a B theme because it's more known than that. But really, okay. Comparison-wise, so here's my point. Comparison-wise, if you in the community that's listening right now, because you're obviously one of the very few that is so dedicated that you want to listen to Pinball Podcasts, You want to engulf all this content, right? The first thing you heard was Venom. You're like, well, there's better comic book themes out there. Right. Deadpool. I would immediately have said you should have gotten Deadpool. Or Avengers. And it's funny because he actually was debating between Deadpool and Venom. And I can't remember why he landed on Venom. But his family loves it. Yeah. He loves it. His kid is proud of blowing up this game, right? his kids said it's like 1.5 billion or whatever and that may be the best game for that family yes considering that venom is like a leveling up game but gary stern proved this right like every game has every game finds its home yeah and so my point being is when you make a game like barrio's barbecue you were you were narrowing the window of people that are going to buy that game because where's the home where's the home not many people like people love barrio that are in this community but if the community doesn't buy in you then have to go to the secondary market which is those that want themes specific to their homes and i don't feel like barrio hits that mark not a home game so you're basically saying you're okay if you have a barbecue place and you have someone who likes pinball and is interested in putting this game in their barbecue joint yeah and that okay that that's three levels down in in niche and i i don't think that you're gonna move a lot of units that way yeah so just and i i know i'm i'm telling people that this is their job this is what they do right and so we're amateurs like we are we are not marketers this is just us looking at it from the outside but it's still these are questions that everybody's having yes and so i'm excited to see what comes out of american next because i feel like it's another it's another opportunity to wipe the slate clean and to give give the community another shot at what at supporting them it's day one it's the first like true day one i'm excited we'll see if we do more updates i don't know it is kind of late but uh just quick out shout out to don's pinball podcast thanks for the little kfc bucket for my jaws chicken my chicken bucket what did i say no it's kfc oh yeah the kfc bucket just saying chicken yeah everybody likes chicken everyone loves chicken even even bruce from jaws loves chicken exactly that's what they were chumming with was kfc um was it really kfc on the movie no i was like wow i i haven't seen jaws in a while i would have been surprised it's it's great i love coming to expo i feel like this is me personally i know people might fight me on this this is the best pinball convention for your money and for what you get out of it just bar none don't get me wrong texas pinball festival is good but i feel like expo has stepped it up year after year you get you get the if you want to talk to manufacturing so i'm my i'm bringing my family to texas pinball festival that may be a more appropriate thing for my family i don't know the the floor here is amazing it's good i i'm just saying it's uh this is focusing on the people who are interested in the manufacturing side and that's ultimately why i decided to take my kids to texas um i think is there anyone we missed on shout outs. Jeff Teolis. Yeah, Jeff. Great to see Jeff. I'm glad that his work schedule allowed him a little bit of a break to get down here. Shane told, I just got a message from you, man. Good luck with When We Were Young. You're going to slay it. I wish I was there this weekend, too. It stinks that When We Were Young is the same weekend as Pinball Expo. Iron Maiden is the same. You're right. Iron Maiden is the same. It's tomorrow night and I'm here. Trust me, I made my choice. Okay, I'm happy, but I'm annoyed because I wanted to see that concert. If you've made it this far, it shocks me how many people have said, where did you get the hockey jersey? Where did you get the Loser Kid hockey jersey? SilverBallSwag.com slash Loser Kid. I assume you've made it this far. If you listen to the show, go check it out. People are still finding it. Buy some shoes. People are loving the shoes. Backpacks. Shirt that Scott's wearing. You can get that from Silver Ball Swag as well.
    65:48
    Is there anything else before I shut this down? No, we're tired. If you want to get a hold of us, LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com.
    65:56
    Wait, no. Yeah, LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. If you want to get a hold of us on the socials, on Facebook, Instagram, X, Twitch, YouTube, all at LoserKidPinball.
    66:09
    I think that's it. I don't know if there's anything else I can say. If there's something you want us to check out while we're here, shoot us a message.
    66:20
    Bye.