Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Episode 27 - Podcast Accoutrements

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 36m·analyzed·Jan 30, 2017
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Jetsons pinball announced at $6-7K; hosts skeptical of pricing and sparse design.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers podcast episode from January 29, 2017 features co-hosts Dennis and Tony discussing the newly announced Jetsons pinball by Spooky Pinball in partnership with The Pinball Company. The hosts analyze the game's sparse fan-layout design, $6,000-$7,000 pricing structure, and question whether it's appropriately priced for the market. They also discuss an ongoing community tournament of modern widebody pinball machines, with Round 1 results and three notable upsets.

Key Claims

  • Jetsons pinball is limited to 300 units total: first 100 at $6,000, second 100 at $6,500, third 100 at $7,000

    high confidence · Dennis confirmed on The Pinball Company website that the tiered pricing structure is accurate

  • Jetsons is designed to appeal to families and casual players rather than traditional pinball collectors, with simpler rules and lower maintenance requirements

    medium confidence · Dennis speculates based on limited pre-release discussion about the game's design philosophy and target audience

  • Stern Pro pinball machines are currently selling for around $5,200 delivered through distributors

    medium confidence · Dennis heard this from industry sources but notes he hasn't directly called distributors recently

  • Domino's pinball machine by Spooky cost less than $6,000

    medium confidence · Dennis recalls pricing information but admits uncertainty about exact price point

  • The tiered pricing strategy may be designed to pressure early sales by creating fear of price increases

    low confidence · Dennis's speculation about Pinball Company's marketing strategy

Notable Quotes

  • “There's no way this is a $6,000 game. I think this is part of it... It looks a little sparse. The art's nice. It's very Jetson-y... but it seems sparse for a $6,000 game, especially if the price does increase.”

    Tony @ early segment — Immediate reaction to Jetsons pricing; frames core concern about value proposition

  • “I think the issue is we're at a point where $6,000 is just the going price for everything. Is that just the minimum buy-in to get a new in-box pinball machine nowadays?”

    Dennis @ mid-discussion — Articulates broader industry pricing concern about market baseline

  • “5,000 for me was that mental guard break... it's just sort of my hard ceiling that I've adopted as an arbitrary number”

    Dennis @ pricing philosophy segment — Reveals personal purchasing psychology and applies Seth Killian competitive gaming concept to pinball collecting

  • “It's like a rich man's hobby now, but it wasn't always... but if you want anything new in it it's taking more than inflation alone explains”

    Dennis @ market analysis segment — Critiques pricing trajectory as exceeding justifiable inflation increases

  • “I would guess Attack from Mars a new version... depending upon the upgrades and changes... maybe five grand or so”

    Dennis @ Attack from Mars discussion — Establishes expectation for sparse fan-layout game pricing

  • “Transformers is the same way... The ball is just smacking into all sorts of stuff, flying up on plastics... I think Transformers might be my least favorite Stern.”

    Tony @ worst machines discussion — Critiques specific Stern machine design and playability; reveals personal preference data

Entities

Spooky PinballcompanyThe Pinball CompanycompanyStern PinballcompanyAmerican PinballcompanyPlanetary PinballcompanyJetsonsgameAttack from MarsgameDomino'sgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Industry minimum buy-in for new in-box pinball machines now $6,000+, with pricing increases outpacing inflation justification

    high · Dennis: 'it's taking more than inflation alone explains... like what we saw with batman 66 it's like no no i i know what you're doing times are good and you're gouging while you can'

  • ?

    event_signal: Eclectic Gamers hosting ongoing community tournament of modern widebody pinball machines with Round 1 results showing mostly expected seeding outcomes and three notable upsets

    high · Detailed results of 16-game matchups with Future Spa beating Batman Forever (coin toss), Genie beating WWF Royal Rumble, Devil's Dare beating Hot Doggin'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jetsons designed as family-friendly game with simpler rules and sparse playfield to appeal to casual players and game room owners rather than traditional collectors

    medium · Dennis speculates: 'this was, in terms of the theme and the nature of the game being fairly Spartan, it is to appeal to a family environment... easier for children to be able to understand the rules'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Jetsons theme chosen for family-friendly licensing and theme appeal despite uncertainty about contemporary audience familiarity with property

    medium · Tony questions: 'Do kids watch the Jetsons anymore? I mean, the Jetsons were old when we were young. For them to be huge now, I just, I don't see it.'

  • $

    market_signal: South Park pinball (Sega 1999) performs well on location route despite poor gameplay reception among enthusiasts, indicating theme/casual appeal drives location economics

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.289

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, January 29th, 2017. It's episode 27, I'm Sick Tony. And I'm Not Sick Dennis. and we are here to talk to you about pinball and video games and a little bit of tabletop as i said i'm sick i've been sick all weekend so if i'm seeing a little lower energy a little quieter than normal that's that's the fault of this bug that's been wiping my family out for a week i think it's good that you gave everyone a heads up because normally you're the one with all of the energy but we also don't want this to turn to the pinball podcast and just have a recounting of every sort of illness or injury that befalls you because we could possibly be here all day, given how bad you sound. Yeah, we don't want. It's not worth it. So aside from your illness, what's been going on since the last episode?
1:12
I successfully failed and broke my New Year's resolution to go to more tabletop things because the family was sick last weekend. Whatever this thing is, it's got like a week lead time because one kid got it, then a week later, my wife and the other kid got it, then a week later, it hit me, and it's been the exact same thing. You still have 11 months to kind of fulfill on that goal that you set.
1:40
Yeah, we'll keep working on it. I've also still been doing heavy training at work with our new person, and that has pretty much left me with no time to listen to podcasts. So I've managed to catch up, and I'm, like, within 14 hours of being caught up. That's fairly close.
2:05
Yeah, I'm pretty certain I slept through probably six hours worth this weekend at least because I turned it on when I was laying down and let it go. and then I'd pass out, and then I'd wake up. It still counts.
Medieval Madness
game
Transformersgame
Twilight Zonegame
Tonyperson
Dennisperson
Mikeperson
Donperson
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
Kansas SCSevent
Pinball Arcadeproduct
Champion Pubgame
South Parkgame

medium · Dennis: 'I've heard that it earns pretty well on Route because of the theme. And people who aren't so good at pinball, I guess, can like it.'

  • $

    market_signal: 300-unit limited production with tiered pricing structure designed to incentivize early purchases through fear of price increases

    medium · Dennis speculates about pricing strategy: 'I'm wondering if maybe the pinball company thought we might be able to initiate a lot of upfront sales if people are afraid that they'll have to pay $500 more if they don't jump in right away'

  • ?

    community_signal: Tony attending Kansas state pinball championship after qualifying, indicating competitive tournament participation

    high · Tony: 'I did just squeak in and get into the state pinball championship thing. So I'll be crushed first round, but I will get to go.'

  • ?

    announcement: Spooky Pinball and The Pinball Company officially announce Jetsons pinball machine with 300-unit production run and tiered pricing ($6,000/$6,500/$7,000)

    high · Dennis confirmed details from The Pinball Company website; pictures released on Facebook

  • ?

    product_strategy: Spooky considering contract manufacturing reskin model for future games to achieve lower price points with shared mechanical layouts and theme variations

    low · Dennis proposes: 'I wonder for stuff like this, if it wouldn't be better... to build a mechanical whitewood... then when something comes up contract-wise... just slap on various themes... at a lower price point'

  • ?

    product_concern: Transformers pinball criticized as one of Stern's worst designs due to clunky playfield layout, poor ball routing, and ball getting stuck frequently

    high · Tony: 'Transformers might be my least favorite Stern... it just gets stuck everywhere. All it is is a big stuck ball. It was just terribly engineered.'

    • 2:17
    I was absorbing it. It was like osmosis. I was just getting it. I understand everything. Yeah, well, I saw a new Hardcore History dropped. That's the one I'm not all the way through yet. I haven't even started it because it's like five hours, and I put it at the end of my list. It's one of his. I don't remember him doing it before, but it has a different intro, and they call it a Blitz episode. So it's designed. He does indicate that originally Blitz was going to be a shorter one so they could get out more podcasts in a year. But it's now more of just a completely self-contained and focusing more on a concept rather than on a specific battle or a specific war is sort of the difference. Yeah, I've watched a couple of those in the past because they're seen as they're the ones that just one episode. They're not as memorable as the six or seven episode of six-hour-long things about World War I or whatever.
    3:24
    I think this one's on the atomic weapon. I think that's what it's about. I mean, that's where I'm up to right now is sort of the almost up to the Marshall Plan era, I guess. I'm not all that far, but it's not following that timeline in the same sense, sort of talking about the morality of the use of weapons and that sort of thing. But good, as always. He's my favorite history podcast.
    3:52
    Yeah, I agree with that. What have you been up to? Oh, a little bit. Since I'm not sick, Dennis, I've not been sick. So I've been able to accomplish a few other things. So I finished Doom off, finally. Got through that campaign. Enjoyed it.
    4:07
    I started and finished the Telltale series, Batman. I'm Batman. I was Batman. I solved that. I solved his mysteries. So that's squared away. I am working on another gaming project with my dad. I'm not really going to say anything else about it yet. It's just too early along. but I'll give an update when I'm finally finished with it. It's a project of his instigation, not mine, so it's not really for me.
    4:35
    So that's keeping me a little bit busy when I have some downtime and want to be more hands-on. And I don't think I did ever mention it, but I am at the, I guess in a couple weeks, I'll be at the Kansas SCS for pinball. I did just squeak in and get into the state pinball championship thing. So I'll be crushed first round, but I will get to go. So I guess that's kind of neat because I didn't go the prior year.
    5:02
    And other than that, I have a couple corrections that were pointed out to me from a two-time guest host. Mike contacted me after the last episode. So first one was on me when we were talking about the Nintendo Switch. I said that the console would be coming with the game 1-2 Switch. That is not true. by default the Nintendo Switch does not come with any games bundled with it so that was a lie and I apologize for said lie and then the other isn't so much a correction but a challenge and Mike challenged your claim about the Nintendo DS even the XL version being too big for pockets he says that he can fit the XL even in his front jeans pocket and that it is notably easy to transport I'm going to go with I am a fat man and my jeans don't fit nearly as well as his probably do they are uncomfortable, they are not fat guy friendly the XL is more like the XS when it comes to jean pockets, perhaps I've seen him have it in his pocket before when we've been places and done things, it's not something that fits in my pocket but I'm a person who I am not super happy having my keys and my wallet in my pocket. They kind of annoy me at times, and they're nowhere near that size. Well, I think in his case, it's just an instance of he doesn't seem to believe that the Switch is going to fit in his jeans pocket front or back. Oh, yeah, I don't see there's no way that will. So while it's very easy for him to actually just pocket a DS and take it with him somewhere, it wouldn't be for the Switch. So it got to our discussion about the portability because you were very much thinking that this is going to be a good competitor to the DS because a lot of people are carrying things like messenger bags. And obviously the Switch or the DS will fit fine in one of those. But I don't know what the level of people who don't carry sort of a tote bag around but rather are just relying on pockets. And apparently he's one of them. So to him, it was an issue of concern. So I said I would bring it up. because we are good hosts and we bring such things up.
    7:16
    So anyway, I think that's it for intros. So we can roll on into the first topic, which would be pinball as usual. But this time, you know, I was going to open with our 2017 Solid or Modern Era Widebody Tournament, but I want to actually intercede ahead of that because we actually, amazingly, on a Sunday record time, have breaking news. I know. It's amazing. It almost makes me think that they've listened and they feel bad that some people – that everything drops on Mondays and we all miss everything. That's right, and it's like your cries for fairness, your cries for justice, they've been heard and they've been answered. And the answer comes in the form of Jetson's pinball. so this is what we know so far spooky pinball in partnership with the pinball company has announced the jetsons pinball machine pictures are up on facebook the pinball company provided them maybe and i think an hour ago or so is when i saw them this is what we know other than what the images show and i hate trying to describe these uh these visual things verbally but Basically, it's a two-flipper fan layout playfield. It's got Jetson artwork all over it. It's one ramp from the left side. It's got a scoop on the far left. I see a captive ball over on the right-hand side. It's got a couple of spinners on the orbits, three-pop bumper layout. And it has been noted to be 300 units. I believe I have seen indicated that the first 100 units are set to sell at $6,000. I have seen from an unofficial source that it goes up $500 for each additional $100 series. So in the last $100, possibly be at $7,000, but that is not confirmed. However, I do believe that the $6,000 for the initial $100 is a confirmed rate.
    9:14
    And so that's the basics of it. Obviously, it's just been announced, so we don't have a ton of detail other than that and other than what the pictures show us. But Tony, you've seen the pictures. What do you think of it? There's no way this is a $6,000 game. I think this is part of it. I mean, I'm sure it is. It's just I have a hard time seeing it. It looks a little sparse. The art's nice.
    9:38
    It's very Jetson-y. I mean, it pulls off the Jetsons vibe all right, but it seems sparse for a $6,000 game, especially if the price does increase. I mean, that seems insane. I just wonder if how many it's going to go if that's the price well you know I don't there have been rumors about a Jetsons pinball for quite a while so I don't think the theme is going to shock anyone that it came out the way it did I don't know how to in demand it is or isn't from what I have read the idea which again And because this is in partnership with the pinball company, this is like Domino's. So this is more of a contract job. And I would assume in those sort of scenarios, you'd expect both entities, both Spooky and the pinball company, to be essentially needing profit out of it. Though I know that the Domino's pinball machine was notably less than the $6,000.
    10:42
    Also, though, the theme could perhaps be seen as more appealing as Jetson's. But I think the argument that I've read, and of course discussion's been very limited so far because it's only just been announced, but from what little I was able to glean before it was time to go to air, the discussion was that this was, in terms of the theme and the nature of the game being fairly Spartan, it is to appeal to a family environment, which obviously the theme does, and that the gameplay is to appeal to sort of a simpler concept for it to be easier for children to be able to understand the rules and be able to adapt and be able to play the machine, it not being a drain monster, I'm assuming, and things along those lines. So I guess that's sort of the angle. It's not targeted towards the traditional pinball collector, but perhaps more for people who have a game room and they have a family and this might be the only pinball machine they get and they want it to be something that's approachable and easy to understand and not require a lot of maintenance, and this is the product of that? Well, I can see that argument being made. I'm on the pinball company's website, and they confirm the first 100 machines are 6,000, the second 100 machines are 6,500, and the last 100 are 7,000. Okay. There we go. Ultra-breaking news. So, yeah, I mean, I can see that argument being made, but at the same time, I mean, do kids watch the Jetsons anymore? I mean, the Jetsons were old when we were young. For them to be huge now, I just, I don't, I don't see it. I understand the reasoning. I understand the cost and this and that, but this has got me thinking. I wonder, for stuff like this, if it wouldn't be better for a company to sit down and build a mechanical whitewood that has a whole bunch of solid shots, solid everything, well-designed, well-liked, and then when something comes up contract-wise, it's something that they can just slap on various themes to with minor tweaks and minor changes to make it fit the theme, but let them push those out at a lower price point because you're still dealing with one primary design.
    13:06
    Right, right, a reskin concept. Yeah, a reskin concept like they did with PBR and like the Family Guy, Shrek combination, things like that. But instead of going with something huge, just having something that's specifically set up and so that they get a lower price point out there. or are we just to a point where $6,000 is the going price for everything? I mean, is that just the minimum buy-in to get a new in-box pinball machine nowadays?
    13:37
    Well, I guess technically, purportedly, it's $5,200 if you want to go to Stern Pros, which I think is what the distributors are kind of – that's what I – I've not called any distributors since the latest round of price increases. I've heard that that's the going right now is you can get them delivered to your door around $5,200. uh yeah i don't know uh i think the i i personally would guess that there could be a market for in fact that's almost what i thought american pinball was trying to gear themselves up towards except they clearly were uh indicating that people would come to them with the designs and everything but you know the idea of having pinball layouts and you just going someplace to actually get it built but having a theme you want obviously when you take like the wonelli uh papst example it's a lot easier if you don't have dots or an LCD to recode like Family Guy and Shrek required in that transition. And we do have a full LCD sort of in the back box here. So you're going to have to... That is something that, yeah, this does have a full LCD. But, I mean, even then, I wonder what their rules are. I mean, if this is something that does work to a point, can they use the same layout again with modifications to make it work? Is it something we'll be seeing more contracted pens out? I mean, this is obviously not spooky number three because this is a contracted pen again, just like dominoes. And I haven't played a dominoes.
    15:07
    I haven't talked directly to anybody who has played a dominoes. I've seen some stuff online and seen some people post online that they like it all right, but I don't have any actual inherent dealing with it or first hand knowledge of it so we should be able to try it at Texas so you'll get some eventually I mean in terms of the issue with the price and the demand and I do share and I know I've noted it on the podcast probably more times than anyone listening cares to count but I do have concerns about the new in box pricing Obviously, in this case, yeah, I have no idea if Jetsons is regularly shown to children anymore. It is a safe theme in terms of being family friendly. So it has that going for it. And I mean, in terms of demand, they only need demand of 300. I mean, they don't really want demand higher than that. They don't care how it performs on the secondary market. And they're only going to make 300. So as long as they can sell 300, I think they're going to be golden. I don't know about this idea with the tiering on the price to make it go higher and higher the closer you get to the end of the run. That seems a little like – I'm wondering if maybe the pinball company thought we might be able to initiate a lot of upfront sales if people are afraid that they'll have to pay $500 more if they don't jump in right away. That's the only advantage I can think of is to try and scare people into doing the buy as soon as possible. I don't understand otherwise It could also be that And if I was going to put a guess I think what they're probably going to end up doing Is they will probably run up 100 machines and then Pull it off the line to start running up Spooky 3 And then put another When the demand goes up They'll put another 100 machines on the line So they'll be pulling Spooky 3 off the line To run up more Jetsons Is my guess well this makes me uh with your point about how about how spartan it looks and it is very open i i'd say i mean it's it's a fan layout and dominoes was as well uh they you know the shots are in the back they are mostly just you know they loop around it's got the speed going for it but you know we take another another fan layout game attack from mars if attack from mars remake which we know was announced by Planetary. How much do you think that should sell for? Because it's a pretty Spartan game. I mean, it has a shaking UFO and it's got four shaking Martians, but other than that, it doesn't have any toys.
    17:50
    Oh, I think it's probably going to sell for a lot more than I think it should. Maybe I'm just mispricing what I think games should be in my head. Well, I don't I wouldn't say that you're mispricing it. I would say, I mean, I would guess Attack from Mars a new version of Attack from Mars depending upon the upgrades and changes and this and that just to look at it just looking at this I would guess five grand or so right my initial thought on Jetsons was I figured 4,500 to five grand when I first saw the pictures and it wasn't until I saw the price that I was in shock right and I don't remember what Domino's is selling for I wanted to think it was around $50 to $50 or so Yeah. And I understand the LCD is going to increase cost because it's a whole different level of coding and stuff.
    18:42
    Well, I know online discussions, people were hoping that, and last I saw, we don't know the price for Attack from Mars Remake. People were hoping for $6,000 to $6,500.
    18:54
    And a lot of people expect that it will be no cheaper than Medieval Madness, which means $8,000. Yeah, that's what I assume it will be as well. I just, we can all dream and have hopes and stuff. But again, that's one of those things. I mean, Attack from Mars is my favorite pinball machine. And if I was ever allowed to just have one pinball machine, that's the one it would be. And it's the one I could happily play all day, every day without an issue.
    19:19
    Right. Well, I mean, yeah. I really like the art on Jetsons. I think it is very reminiscent of the show. It is. And it hits nostalgia buttons hard. I mean, I was recognizing stuff that I hadn't thought about in years, but the second I saw it, it came into head, like the song, the oop, ork, cock, dee, blah, blah song, and all the little things. I mean, that stuff popped into my head as soon as I saw it. It hit nostalgia buttons hard. It's unfortunate, but yeah, price-wise, it's just not for me. Unfortunately, I don't think any new inboxes anymore. the um for me ever everyone has their obviously there's a what what you can afford what you're willing to pay and what things are worth to you uh as we've discussed in the past for me my i'm going to use a seth killian phrase from uh from uh competitive fighting games which we're going to be talking about in the video game segment and i know he had an expression he likes to use sometimes when he commentates and it's a mental guard break that's what's it will refer to it when someone has sort of been psyched out and then they're losing because of that. And I think of it in this case of everyone has a mental guard break point for what they're willing to pay for something. And in the world of pinball, for a new in box, and it's just completely arbitrary number, but 5,000 for me was that mental guard break. And so if Aerosmith is 5,200, it's 200 too high in terms of me rationalizing even if i've had the money to just say i you know what it's worth 5200 to me it's just that's kind of my that 5000 was just sort of like my hard ceiling that i i've just adopted as an arbitrary number and you know i you maybe if i made 20 more money than i do now i might renegotiate where my mental guard break is but i'm not sure that i would it's just sort of a this has to be this is my line in the sand where i don't go higher so Jetsons is ruled out because it's so well above that line the fact that it's so Spartan and it's running more than the Stern Pros I can understand why it's a limit you know limited run possible issue with the license obviously it's a smaller manufacturer you don't have the same economy of scale lots of logical reasons why it's not Stern Pro cheap but Stern Pros are too much for me at this point so I just have to look used is sort of my approach so it's one of those games where I hope I get a chance to play it. It sounds like it'll be at Texas, so I may very well get a chance to play it. And chances are I won't probably play it ever again unless it shows up on location. And that's just the way it is for me. But for some other people, if it's a dream theme and they've got the funds and they're willing to say, you know what, pinball machines can be $6,000 or $8,000 or $10,000. There are obviously a lot of people who can say that because that's what they're running for now. And you know what? Yay for them. We might get them on location. and then I get a chance to play them anyway, and I'll just drop quarters. Yeah, and that's the thing is I can understand, and this is still the hobby of the easier hobby for people who make a lot more money. I mean, if I made a quarter million of a year, I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem dropping, you know, six or eight or ten grand on something that I really wanted, where with what I do make, for me, that's like, that's a divorce right there.
    22:50
    Yeah, it's just, the thing is, while it's always taking a little bit of money, it used to, it's like a rich man's hobby now, but it wasn't always. When I look back and I see the discussion, and when you even look at some of the older machines, you're like, no, it doesn't take a ton of money to get into this hobby. but if you want anything new in it it's taking uh more than inflation alone explains you know inflation can explain so like stern raising its prices up from like the 3200 level after things started to get good that made sense because they held that such a long time because the market was so soft but now you know like what we saw with batman 66 it's like no no i i know what you're doing times are good and you're gouging while you can and okay you know if there are people that are willing to accept that happening to them, that's their right. If that makes them happy, and it makes Stern happy, it makes the other manufacturers happy, everyone's happy. But it's just not for me. Unfortunately, Jetsons will not be for me. But I would like to try it out. I don't really fault it for its more simplistic design.
    23:55
    I just think the, yeah, I wouldn't be able to rationalize the price for it because the theme does nothing for me other than remind me of being when I was a kid and recognizing a lot of these characters But it was never a theme I loved And I a bit surprised that it was chosen But I assume the pinball company did its market research and there is demand for it
    24:17
    Well, yeah, there's demand for about anything. Oh, yes. Well, I'm looking for it. Where's my G.I. Joe pin?
    24:25
    Where's my Gen 1 Transformers pin? Hey, there's been a Transformers pin. I said a Gen 1 Transformers pinball. I said there's been a Transformers pinball. No, that doesn't count. Except a verification of your childhood.
    24:39
    Accept it. I won in tournament play on that machine so much, but I still hate that machine. That machine is, I think, the clunkiest pinball machine since Champion Pub. That is how clunky that is. Champion Pub looks great. Transformers kind of looks like a mess. But Champion Pub is clunky. The ball is just smacking into all sorts of stuff, flying up on plastics, and it's just clunky. Transformers is the same way. It's like you're just supposed to hit all these toys, and the ball doesn't like to be hitting these weird molded toys. To me, it's just really weird. And that ball on Transformers, it just gets stuck everywhere. All it is is a big stuck ball. It was just terribly engineered. I don't know. So the Pinball Podcast had their, I think it was their past episode, where they were talking about their top 10 and bottom 10 Stern machines. Transformers might be my least favorite Stern. Now, I haven't played, like, Austin Powers. I've played it virtually, but I haven't played it in person. So there are some on their lists that were really way up on the bad list that I don't have enough experience with. but Transformers, just a clunk fest. Does South Park count as a modern Stern? No, I think that's Sega. Okay. I say because, yeah, it's Sega 99. Yeah, there's a bar and grill here in town, and they've got a South Park, and I literally walked up to it, and I put in. I had a bunch of quarters, and I put in two quarters, and I played it, and I went to put in two more quarters, and I just stared at it for a minute and walked away. That game's so terrible. Yeah, that one is pretty hated.
    26:26
    Probably for pinball fans, it might be the most hated Stern. I don't know. Or, excuse me, Sega. But I've heard that it earns pretty well on Route because of the theme. And people who aren't so good at pinball, I guess, can like it. Maybe it's got decent ball times. I don't know. I've never tried it.
    26:47
    You're not missing anything. It's not very good. And the call-outs are just annoying. Yeah, I've heard, unfortunately, they didn't go. You know, there's so much now that you could cool from South Park that could make it. I mean, it's an incredible theme. South Park has a lot of great stuff to work with. Probably need to just do more than just Mr. Hanky.
    27:08
    Speaking of things that you can just take a pass on, let's go ahead and move over to the Widebody Tournament. All righty. So we launched that with the last episode, and we have the round one results now, most of which as you would probably guess were pretty unsurprising given the seed matchups but here are all the results that were the the unsurprising results the ones where the higher seeded game beat the lower seeded game so twilight zone did beat laser war and that was the that was the largest disparity one uh in terms of seed and it is the only instance where we had a game twilight zone obviously which received 100 of the vote is that really a surprise though is it really somebody out there who like who you think likes laser ball more than twilight zone no no it's like it's it's essentially mathematically impossible this is just truth showing now maybe if we hadn't done our google authentication someone would have trolled it and been like yeah i'm gonna stuff them no i don't think they would have ever for laser ball i don't think that uh if anything i was a little surprised that no other game though did get 100 because there was there were other you know near matchups like uh you know indiana jones and the pinball adventure it's the number two seed it did not have 100 against pink panther but well i know some people who aren't real big on the indiana jones yeah i'm not uh well we'll get to that as it advances along but uh i did vote for it uh so all right so that uh Indiana Jones, as I noted, won. Paragon did beat Spirit. Roadshow beat Volcano. See, that's one that's kind of sad because Roadshow and Volcano are both really fun games.
    28:49
    I have no doubt Roadshow is the better game, but Volcano is a fun game. Well, I voted for Volcano because I disagree with you. Volcano is way better than Roadshow. Yes, I know. You have a thing against Roadshow. It's ugly. It's creepy, and it has bad rules. But other than that, it's great. Wizard of Oz, it beat Scorpion. Scorpion doesn't win, as my Mortal Kombat reference.
    29:15
    Black Hole beat Mars, God of War. Hobbit beat Popeye Saves the Earth. Good. Demolition Man beat Big Game.
    29:24
    Judge Dredd beat Superman. Star Trek The Next Generation beat Stellar Wars. Did you vote for Superman, seeing as you own one?
    29:34
    I had to think about it, but yes, I did. It looked like from the results I wasn't the only one, but Superman didn't even get 10%. It got close, but it didn't. Here's the thing with Judge Dredd. I think Don from the Pinball Podcast is a Judge Dredd fan, and I know he listens. So apologies to Don. But I've only played Judge Dredd virtually, and every time I have it in my cab, I put it in. Every time I play it, I don't like it. I love the theme. I think the theme integration is better than Superman, but I just find it so clunky. and not that Superman is a great gem or anything. But yeah, I did. But not just because... I mean, I would have picked Judge Dredd because I'd never played Superman otherwise. In the cases of these games where I hadn't played either of them, I didn't vote. I just would skip it. But if I had experience, it'd be like, okay, well, I'll pick the game that I know or the game I thought was better. And I'm just not... Yeah, I did the same thing. I'm just not... Some people love Judge Dredd, but I just find it clunky. I find the shots uncomfortable. But I'd like to play an actual physical one to get a better feel for it, but I love how it looks. It looks great.
    30:47
    Haunted House beat The Amazing Spider-Man. Embryon beat Space Invaders. And Guns N' Roses beat Flight 2000.
    30:56
    So those were the ones where the seeding went as you would expect. But we did have three upsets. Future Spa which was a 24 seed did end up beating Batman Forever which was the 9 seed but the reason was that actually was an even 50-50 vote split so I had to do a coin toss and Future Spa won the coin toss that's one I didn't vote in that one I know because I haven't played either of those games so there's that I didn't vote in that one either Genie which is the 20 seed beat WWF Royal Rumble, the 13 seed. Is that because everybody was thinking WWE instead of WWF, I wonder? I don't think so. I wondered that, but I think it's because Genie's in the pinball arcade. Okay, well, that makes sense too. In fact, I know it shouldn't be because of the seeding, but I checked the results a week out. I wanted to see how many people had voted to make sure I was getting it announced. Well, and it was. But at that time, a week before I closed the vote, Flight 2000 was beating Guns N' Roses, and I assumed same thing.
    32:07
    It's a game people haven't played in Flight 2000's and Pinball Arcade, so people pick the one they know. That's my guess for Genie. Genie had 62% of the vote.
    32:18
    And then another one I didn't vote on, Devil's Dare, the 18 seed, beat Hot Doggin, the 15 seed, with about 57.6% of the vote. So those were the three upsets.
    32:32
    And that means we've got round two, which will be eight matchups. So for that, the number one seed Twilight Zone will be against the number 16 seed Paragon.
    32:46
    That's going to be – there's going to be some upset people with that pair happening already. There are going to be some pissed off people. is what's going to happen. Paragon, arguably by many, the greatest of the early solid state widebodies. Probably I would say the greatest 29-inch widebody, which is the widest, like all the Ataris are. I believe Paragon is the full 29 inches, though it's a Bally.
    33:11
    It's got a lot of fans. It's not universal. It's somewhat polarizing. Some people think it's an incredibly cheap machine in terms of its monster lair and these evil pop bumpers and stuff. but it looks great. I think it looks better than Twilight Zone, actually. But yeah, I don't. Yeah, people are going to be upset because I think Twilight Zone is going to whoop it, but when you're the number one seed, it is what you expect. Yeah, that's what I think is going to happen too. Twilight Zone is going to take it, but Paragon is a really... I've enjoyed Paragon every time I've played it. Yep, so it's going to be sad. We'll probably hear no end of it. Next matchup, the 24 seed. Future Spa is going to be up against the number 8 seed Roadshow I think that'll be a pretty easy win for Roadshow and I don't think it will upset all that many people because I think Future Spa is just known for its art and that's about it next matchup will be the number 4 seed Wizard of Oz is going to go up against the number 20 seed Genie we'll have to see if the pinball arcade effect holds true there or not I don't know how many people have played Wizard of Oz the 12th seed is black hole that's going to go up against the hobbit which is the fifth seed well here's the thing in my personal opinion black hole is obviously the superior game in every single way to hobbit i agree i will be voting but i don't need to think about it i i i am i would be surprised if black hole wins but i think it's obvious that black hole is the superior game yeah i don't i don't know again uh because you know our because of our eclectic podcast nature we do get a lot of video game people who may not know the hobbit because it's not in a virtual form that they can readily play and black hole was like a season one pinball arcade game i also think it's probably got leaves best uh early solid state i like it better than on the house yeah black hole i played black hole a lot of texas last year so we'll we'll have to see but um yeah uh seed wise we shouldn't expect it to move on uh next matchup be the number two seed which is indiana jones the pinball adventure that's going to go up against devil's dare the 18th seed i've never played devil's dare so yeah i don't expect it to survive not because i haven't played it but it's just so low and indiana jones is so popular yeah now here's an interesting one the 10th seed Demolition Man against the 7th seed Judge Dredd.
    35:44
    I actually like Demolition Man more. I actually think Demolition Man is a decent widebody. I like both of these games. This is going to be another tough choice for me. Yeah, yeah. Because I enjoy them both. So, obviously seeding-wise, based off of Pennside, Judge Dredd has got more respect than Demolition Man. I think Demolition Man has a lot of shots, though. I really respect that it's got that upper flipper challenging shot and the need to hit those things with multi-balls. I think it's got a good rule set, and I think they made good use of the play field, which is my main complaint usually with wide body spit.
    36:25
    Next matchup would be Star Trek The Next Generation. That's going to go up against Gottlieb's Haunted House. Star Trek is the third seed, and Haunted House is the 14th seed. I'm sure Star Trek will win. I'm not actually a huge Next Generation fan. I know a lot of people love it. I don't know. I've just never – it hasn't grabbed me. And growing up as a huge fan of the Next Generation, I was never that overly impressed by the table when I actually played it. Yeah, it's – well, for me, I easily would pick Next Generation over Haunted House. I think both of these games suffer because of their wide-body nature in different ways. I just don't think – I don't find Haunted House very fun to play. I actually enjoy spending time on Black Hole. I just can't get into Haunted House. I don't know. I think it's really cool that it's got the triple play field, but I don't think that stacks up against Star Trek's – it's got all those call-outs from the cast, the cool little cannon shots. You've got the fun little ramp shot. I don't think it's as fun as Stern Star Trek, but I think it can be entertaining. My problem with Star Trek Next Gen as a table is the slings are so high that it's just an outlaying drain monster, and I hate the video mode. A video mode where you can memorize what to do, I think is stupid. So I never liked that aspect of it, but it is what it is. Last matchup is going to be the 11th seed Embryon against the 6th seed Guns N' Roses. I don't think I've played either of those. I know I haven't played Guns and Roses. I think I've played Embryon. I think. But I literally, I have to say I think. So I'm probably going to leave that one blank. Yeah, I'm going to have to skip that one. I may have played it at Texas last year, but I just don't remember it. Yeah, that's my thought. It seems familiar. I seem to recall. And looking at pictures of it, I think I've played it, but I just can't remember. I think I may have played Future Spa before.
    38:26
    But in that case, I do know. Roadshow and I've seen the layout on FutureSpawn. I will actually say I think Roadshow is laid out. I like Volcano, but I'll give Roadshow the pass over FutureSpawn. I'm not a complete monster, Tony. That's good. I know. Well, alright, let's move on to our next pinball topic. Oh gosh, this is like last time we got all sorts of pinball topics. I blame Jetsons for coming in and giving us fresh news. Well, Jetsons and also this next topic is something that we've never actually talked about other than in reference And has suddenly become something big That's right, Skit Bee Pinball All sorts of shenanigan news happening lately I know we've always touched on it briefly, but I guess we'll touch on it briefly again For those that don't know, Skit Bee Pinball was the name of a purportedly pinball company created by a man named Kevin Kulik, who was out to create a Predator pinball machine. Long story short, he didn't have the license to actually use the Predator theme. He received cease and desist letters from Fox, and he ceased production. But people who did not successfully get their credit card companies or PayPal to do chargebacks on the payments, if too much time had passed, a lot of them didn't get their refunds, basically. He said in an interview with Pinball News that he would be issuing refunds. Those refunds never happened. My understanding is there were some refunds sort of before everything fell apart. When it was still looking like it was moving forward, things were kind of operating in a way you'd expect. And then afterwards, it all sort of collapsed. And a lot of people are out a lot of money. so not all that unfamiliar with the the zidware thing but they are really very different in the sense that this had very much to do with licensing and not actually securing all that whereas zidware wasn't having any licensing concerns because those were all original themes and and the nature of the companies was was different zidware was incorporated it's all so there as people look more and more at Skit B, there's not really a lot of legal layers here that you would have expected from a proper functioning business. So the news that's been happening is there have been, and we will have links to both of these in the show notes, someone has up on SoundCloud put up both of these two recent hearings involving Kevin and the bankruptcy case that he has been engaged with. Another difference between Skitbee and Zidware is that Kevin Kulik had filed for bankruptcy. He wanted bankruptcy protection, which I'm sure people have a base understanding of bankruptcy. It's a way to get out from debt. It basically reduces that burden, freezes out collection, and then you can pay off a certain amount of money over time to get the rest of the debt forgiven, and it damages your credit rating. That's sort of bankruptcy in a nutshell. It's to help people out. Well, his bankruptcy, he wants his debts discharged under bankruptcy, but that's been challenged. It's been challenged for a while because the argument has been he's hiding assets. He took in all of this money. He didn't issue refunds. Did he pay it all in parts to build Predator? If so, okay, prove it. Where are the receipts? That sort of stuff. So what had been going on though is he had missed a couple of hearings. He'd missed a hearing to go over the documentation. And then there was a court order for him to go to the next hearing, and he missed that as well. So the judge issued an order for him to be detained by the U.S. Marshals, and they did that, and they hauled him into court. So the first recording that we have the link to was from January 20th, and that's about 40 minutes long. And that is the one where Kevin has been brought in by the U.S. Marshals. The accusations of the trustee, who is sort of representing the bankruptcy system, if you will, come out and the judge is listening to Kevin's excuses as to why he didn't show up and gives him an order that basically he has a week to get to another hearing where he is supposed to present additional documentation. So that was what I thought we were going to mention on this episode. However, the next one on January 27th was also recorded. So we'll have the link to that. And that's the one where the discussion goes on about what has since been turned over to the trustee. It wasn't nearly everything. It was a mess of just spreadsheets, just Excel sheets involving the bank statements. There was confusion that they were even official. And there was some questioning of Kevin by the trustee during that meeting about some of the expenses. Kevin's family is pretty prolific on posting on social media. So people have been picking up on his purchases and such, or other people in his family saying he's provided certain things. And what's so weird is that all of these things, they're not declared. They weren't declared in the bankruptcy proceeding. Like, if you buy your kids' laptops, well, you said you had no money, so where'd the money for the laptops come from? Or if you bought a trailer for your mom, where'd the money come from? Or, oh, all of a sudden there's these predator parts that you say you have. Why weren't those declared as an asset that you had in your possession earlier? That sort of thing. Now, I believe a couple of hours after that second recording, after that second hearing, there was some discussion when you listen to that about a document that had been presented, essentially a sort of a settlement. And Kevin has signed that. So while I think there's still some final approvals that need to happen, basically, Kevin Kulik was given the opportunity to withdraw his request for bankruptcy discharge, which he has done. So – and my sense would be rather than continue down this line and face the risk of being charged with bankruptcy fraud for hiding assets and trying to obtain bankruptcy because bankruptcy is the debtor's idea. He wanted that. People don't make you go bankrupt. You choose to go bankrupt. rather than go through all of that he has agreed to sort of drop his bankruptcy claim and in return i believe this means all of the the claims involving trying to defraud bankruptcy also go away but it means that all of those debts he tried to discharge aren't discharged so the people who are owed money back on predator can go after him as creditors without any bankruptcy protection he's waived his right to bankruptcy for that up to a set date i think the date may have been the date he declared bankruptcy or tried to declare yeah it was in june of 2016 was the date yeah and that and that would fit with when i assume he probably filed the paperwork because obviously his ability to declare bankruptcy later can't can't and shouldn't be hampered by what happened in this previous go because you know people people can fail later on and and need that help so i'm i'm guessing that's the provision for that but it's big i mean we're talking about a non-insignificant amount of money we're talking about between half a million and 1.2 million dollars right the 1.2 million number is derived from the number of machines he had planned to make and what their full kind of retail price he had listed was and i believe it's pretty much established that that it's around 500 000 that was actually involved now i don't know if that's $500,000, that's outstanding, or if that's $500,000, now less whoever was successful doing chargebacks through their credit cards or through PayPal. But yeah, as you noted, not an insignificant sum of money.
    46:31
    The interesting thing listening to these audio files has been just how much the trustee and the judge and how much they're kind of bending over backwards. And I'm sure it's because of the side of it we're on. For them, this is just another case. But we're on the side of having seen this and that and the vitriol that's in the online community. But they seem to be doing a good job of trying to keep him to it while not just lashing out with, you know, taking him to jail or this or that when he couldn't do anything. But the way things have been going, and based upon the last rounds, It sounds like he's in a pretty bad way judicially.
    47:22
    Yeah, my guess on that in terms of how he's been treated by the court system is probably because of which court he's in. He's not before a criminal court and a criminal judge. Yeah, it's a bankruptcy court. Right. And so that whole system, normally they're dealing with people who are down on their luck and need help. And they're there because everything has fallen apart and they're trying to put their lives back together.
    47:51
    So, you know, in that case, I imagine most of the most of the high percentage of people who are going through bankruptcy are legitimately bankrupt and haven't done anything wrong, per se. You know, they've let their they've let their expenditures get out of control. And that what they need to do to or feel they need to do to rein it in But the problem for Kevin on that that he run into is because there are people that think that it isn legitimate He being asked to and this may be standard even if he wasn't being pressured for it. But I think it comes across like he just thought he could declare bankruptcy and it would all go away. But the court does want documentation to prove that you actually are bankrupt. So if you're saying you did a project and your project failed and you needed to declare bankruptcy, there's nothing inherently wrong with any of that approach. But where are the receipts? Where are your records of deposit? Where are your records of expenditure? Why don't they match up? Or why are you having trouble coming up with them? Why can't you produce a paper trail? And the problem that Kevin has faced is that the trustee, the attorney representing the trustee, is saying this guy is recalcitrant. He is refusing to participate in a process that Kevin asked for. He wants bankruptcy, and then he doesn't show up to the hearings. It comes across shady. And I think the judge, well, the judge being very willing to let Kevin try and write these things, I don't really think he was fooling anyone. was the issue. And so people, I mean, he's just like, here, take more and more rope. Here you go. Just whatever. Here you go. If you've got these documents, you can fix it. But you're already kind of in suspicion because why didn't you get it right the first time? You're the one who wants to be bankrupt. It's your idea. So yeah, I wasn't really surprised with how the court gave in terms of leeway. I wasn't surprised, but I don't have any money in this. So it's not a – I guess I think many people who have been burned by him obviously are really wanting a lot more aggressive things to happen, but I just don't think you were going to see that in bankruptcy court. But I guess the civil litigation will be moving forward again now that he can't – because that had started. The attorney who represents the trustee had represented some civil litigants, and I believe now that once the paperwork is finalized and the bankruptcy proceeding is – the bankruptcy discharge is in itself a discharge, so he's not bankrupt. So that case I guess will resume, and he will be forced to possibly face civil penalties because he can't discharge the debt now. Yeah, I mean There's been plenty of stuff that is Hinky enough That I don't see any way That he's going to get away from having Civil penalties put on him I mean, I could be wrong, but It's one of those things that We'll see how it rolls out We've got, what, like three weeks Until his next time Where he has to appear And that's just going to be a phone call and to make sure stuff is being done the way he said it would. So it's going to be at least three weeks before we learn anything new.
    51:24
    Yeah, and I don't know if we're actually going to pick up much at that time or if that is going to change given that he signed these documents after the previous hearing and if that sort of absolves all of that. But, I mean, the issue that he's going to face with the civil case This is the same thing that wound up biting him in the bankruptcy one. He's not got the documentation to prove he legitimately used the funds.
    51:48
    The litigants, those who have brought civil suit against him, they have the evidence they paid him. So that's not at issue. The issue is why can't he repay them? And if he's going to say that he spent all the money on the project, he's going to need to document that he actually did that. And if he can't, then the assumption is that he pocketed the rest of it.
    52:09
    And that was the problem that he ran into with his own self-declared attempt for bankruptcy. He couldn't prove that he actually was destitute.
    52:20
    And, I mean, it should have been easy. I mean, if he really was, it should have been easy. It's like, okay, well, that's fine. That's legitimate stuff. Prove it. Prove that all the money went there because where's the rest? Where are the partial refunds? that you couldn't fully refund, I think is completely logical. But where are the partials? Why didn't you make partials? You spent it all on what? And it's complicated by – and he's personally liable because he did not form an LLC. He gave himself no limited liability. He didn't properly organize a business. So he is, as an individual, on the hook, which, again, personal bankruptcy could have dealt with. I mean you can do business that way. It's not a smart way to do business, but you can do it that way. Yeah, here's a standing rule. Anytime you do anything that's business-related, you probably want to do an LLC or something. You want to form some level of protection between yourself and the company.
    53:19
    Yeah, no. I've known others who, even when they have business separate, they end up thinking that they, for whatever reason, they do things like cover things with their personal monies. It puts them at risk. It puts them at risk for damage. because when they can't get it back, if it's not shielded through the business, then it's like, okay, well, it's on you as an individual then, and it's unfortunate. And it happens a lot, but he couldn't demonstrate. He didn't have the paper trail to demonstrate that everything he said happened, did indeed happen. He didn't have the documentation to show where all the money went. So the trustee's suspicion becomes you still have money, you're hiding it. Things like having his wife, which comes up in the second interview, His wife, he issued a check, apparently a very large check, for the purchase of a house, but the house is only in his wife's name. Well, the house is in his wife's name. It's shielded from bankruptcy. Right. And some of the RV and the thing, all this stuff is shielded. And somehow he was on a joint account, but he's not anymore, or they won't have him give over the information for the joint account.
    54:28
    Right. So when you look at the timeline, when all these things happen, it understandably starts to create at the very least a perception that you knew you were going to declare bankruptcy and you started trying to shield assets. But that's not appropriate. You're not supposed to shield assets.
    54:45
    So anyway, very interesting for those who want to know more. Those two recordings are pretty easy to follow along. They are pretty entertaining. There is a thread on Pennside. I will not be supplying a link in the show notes. that thread is massive. And I don't actually recommend reading the thread because it's Pennside. So it digresses a whole lot and the moderators there don't just purge off-topic posts. So you end up with a thread with over thousands of posts and you've probably got less than 100 that are actually relevant to anything. So I can't link to it in good conscience. And I don't want to embed audio here because it's already recorded and there's no reason for me to pad out the podcast with with uh legal recordings so uh just trust me if you want to know more those uh those are quite quite the kick to listen to so give them a shot yeah they're they're they're dry but if you have any interest in stuff it's it's interesting to hear you can do the dun law and order sound effects from time to time to like make it more entertaining if you so wish It may help. I didn't try, but I think it would help on retrospect.
    55:56
    All right. Let's go to a cheerier pinball topic. Another one that relates very well to Texas Pinball Festival because they are Texas based. P3 Multimorphic. The company has declared that production is officially underway for the P3 platform system. Tony and I have played this. We played Lexi Lightspeed last year. We also played the cannonball game they had just unveiled, which was sort of almost like a pinball training sort of thing where you're sinking boats. This, for those that don't know, the P3 system is the play field is actually a screen. You have a real ball. It rolls around on a play field. But the underneath of the play field is like a monitor. So the ball is interacting and the monitor is responding. And then the way it works is the back of the play field is modular. So you can pull out the ramps and stuff. They're all sort of laid out in the back, kind of like traditional fan layouts would be. And then you can put in a new game and just change out those pieces, but you just use the one cabinet, and the rest of it's software. So the monitor and the look and the art package will change as you change the games. But you don't have to buy the machine over and over again. That's it in a nutshell.
    57:07
    Yeah, it's a decent idea. It was fun when I played it last year. He was an interesting technological demonstrator But now that it's entering production That means it's time that we'll hopefully soon see new tables for it Because Lexi's been shown for a while now And I know they're going to want to have something new pretty soon after launch for it and hopefully it will be able to meet its necessary goals to actually sell, sell enough numbers to keep going. With all of the burns lately over pre-ordering and this and that, I mean, between the Zidware, the Skidby a few years ago, this and that, I know people have been having issues with, like, worrying about Alien and some of the other stuff lately, that I just wonder how much of an issue getting and maintaining pre-orders they are going to have.
    58:14
    Yeah, now that they're ready to take money, it will be a telling point. One of my initial concerns, which I actually think has been alleviated because of the price increases by the other manufacturers, was the, I know the base ask price was planned to be $10,000, but you were getting essentially at the time that I had read about it, two full games. So the idea was you're basically paying $5,000 a game. I don't know if it's still only coming with two or if it's coming with more. My initial, you know, for me as a person would be like, even though I logically, I get that idea that you're actually getting two games and it's only 5,000 a game and 5,000 I could see was right on my cusp of being okay for something new. I couldn't rationalize actually dropping $10,000 all at once. But now that you have things like dialed-in versions, they have some that are over $10,000. You've got Batmans over $10,000. You've got other machines that are actually pushing up towards that price point. It becomes much more plausible as a contender because it's not being undercut by the traditional machines in the way that I thought it would be. So that, I think, is very good for multimorphic. because that puts them more on a level playing field on the price point in terms of what people would actually have to drop down. There are still a lot of less expensive options, obviously. Your standard Stern Pro or Stern Premium, your standards out of Jersey Jack, those run under $10,000.
    59:41
    I think the P3 system still, even though it's been years in the making, I think it is still the most innovative concept I have seen in full physical pinball, period. I agree with you. I think it's got a better chance of having the adjustable game style going than what Highway did with their swappable playfields. I think this has a better chance. Yeah, I think Highway, honestly, I don't want to sidetrack too, too much, but it does sort of relate because they both have the swappable concept. I think Highway should honestly just drop that concept. it i don't think it was executed well uh the the i mean the moment when you told the full throttle people that they would have to upgrade the board sets to play alien and that was going to be additional money means it's not plug and play swap it's just not plug and play swappable are they going to do with is the plan to do that every game i mean yeah i mean i i don't know i i mean if you look at something like stern where they keep the same board set for a number of years and don't But they're not asking you to swap the playfields anyway, so you don't really care. Other than people working on them will be like, oh, well, I know Sam, and now I need to learn Spike System and all that. But whereas with Multimorphic, their P3 system was always built with the mind that I think towards the home audience and the ability to take one machine and keep putting in new games. So it's like, it's almost like for me, I think Highway just tacked on the, oh, well, you can just drop in a new play field and do these other things. And in about five minutes, you can change games out. But that's not really what they've engineered around. It was just like a bonus in a way. Whereas with Multimorphic, that's like the selling point. This thing, you buy the tech once, and then you just, you know, you can start stacking up your modules that you're underneath the game or whatever that you want to drop in. And it's just the back half. They're not heavy. the game knows what game you want to play the moment you pop the thing in because it you know it recognizes what the what the back of the play field's going to be it just it's a such if you want to be swappable it's such a smarter way to do it that and i'm assuming p3 won't be like oh well here's lexi light speed 2 by the way you need to buy a whole new board set to player i don't i don't think they're going to go that route so uh it just seems it just seems like uh better executed towards the home towards the home market and in highways defense they don't need to go that route if that's not what the consumers want if the consumer's like no i want full throttle next to alien i'm gonna always buy a new cabinet that's what most of the markets used to so if you're wanting to capitalize on the existing market it's people who want a standalone pinball machine every time they buy a pinball machine they don't want to swap play fields they They just want the game in its own thing. Yeah. See, and the thing I like with the P3 system is it is a good cross between a virtual cab and the real deal.
    62:51
    Because, I mean, you've got a virtual cab. I've played a virtual cab. I wouldn't mind having a virtual cab just because I'm short on room, and a virtual cab would be a nice way for me to have a lot of different machines. but at the same time I've never played a virtual cab that had the same feel, the same, or gave the same response or the same joy as playing an actual machine. So having a machine that is both where you've got the sounds, you've got the ball, you've got all that, but it's so easy to switch out and change, I think would go a long way to people who have a limited amount of space and a limited amount of ability to have games. I mean, I don't have a giant basement or garage that I can turn into a pinball hall. I don't have a warehouse where I can store pinballs. So I have a very limited amount that I could ever get at one time.
    63:43
    And I think this is a nice way to give some of the good feeling, but still having some of the extra ability of a virtual pen. yes the the thing that that multimorphic uh has addressed that that i think is why it's such a leap for physical pinball technology is they solved the issue that virtual pinball has about the inauthenticity inauthenticity of the physics by still using a physical ball so the physics is identical to any other pinball machine that you might you might encounter yeah you can argue well whatever it's rolling on is different than the, you know, like a Stern play field. But you know what? That's how it was with a lot of the European manufacturers. They did different coatings on their Orbiter One from Stern Electronics. That's like a plastic. I mean, they've done different materials before. So what it rolls on in a way isn't really needed to be known in a way. It's the ball. It's still the metal ball. You're still using real flippers. You still got real slingshots. You've still got the things that introduce true physical randomness. It's not being emulated or simulated. So they got around the thing about virtual pinball by not making the pinball be virtual. It's real. It's a physical pinball. The screen stuff is just a way to get around the art and to track the scoring and all of that. And that's just, it's technology that didn't exist back in the day. So I think in that regard, it's brilliant. The ability to swap the games and stuff, you know, it's sort of, it's a twofold thing in my mind. One is what you pointed out. I think there's a definite market for homeowners because you don't have to worry about all the space. I mean, even in my – I have a whole room, my rec room now, which, you know, it had an air hockey table and other things. Other than my virtual pen and my little main cabinet, it's just physical pens now. That's all it is. And I don't have like 10 machines in there. I can't get that many in. So – and that's – it's a long room. And so a lot of people don't have the space to have a whole bunch of machines. So then you're either always buying and selling machines as you get bored, or you do what I do, and you don't play them a whole lot. You just play them from time to time so you don't get bored with them. Or you start filling up the rest of your house, which I'm hoping my garage doesn't become.
    66:09
    Or you do something like you get a virtual machine. And this kind of fits that realm but still gives you the physical machine. I'm telling you, your garage is deep enough. We could build a wall in there, and we could knock out that wall. we could make that game room stretch the entire width of your house. We could run some heating ducts so it stays warm. We'll insulate it real well. I mean, you could fit in a lot more machines then. That sounds like a project, a very bad project. We don't need to go to such extents. That would be – now, if I ever end up with, like, a bunch of pins that are just sitting and stored in the garage and have that much of a problem, then I may be like, yeah, okay, well, maybe if I do it that way, It doesn't look like I have a problem anymore, and it'll be solved. And I'm usually – I'm a pretty good amount not having to go out and buy a bunch of machines. I like to think. Money keeps me confined and constrained, so that's good. That's the story of everybody. Yeah. But the other thing that I think was the case for Multimorphic, well, I think they – I would assume they probably went into it thinking about the home collector in mind. the fact that this tech isn't cheap and you know putting in the screen and all that at the time at least of conception i imagine it wasn't feasible to imagine using this sort of tech in just one machine and then expecting people to buy the tech again because it's just so much i mean to have that you know the ball tracking and the full the full screen stuff going on underneath the ball and just selling game after game like that as full cabs uh i just think it didn't it didn't make sense financially to expect a lot of people to be able to afford to do that so the module thing lends itself as a workaround as well for being able to just buy the tech once you know you go and you buy your ps4 you don't have to buy a ps4 for call of duty and then another ps4 to play overwatch and another ps4 to play uncharted so to be fair those are all first person shooters and you should be playing them on computer anyway well in the old day when they were built for computer maybe that made sense but anyway uh congratulations to multimorphic and uh i imagine i oh actually i don't imagine i know they're set to be at the texas pinball festival again so we'll see if they have any new uh games to unveil that we might be able to play um we are the last pinball top we touched on this already briefly but uh the attack from mars remake was announced you know we had talked a number of episodes ago back when jack danger was guest toasting actually about cactus canyon had been announced by uh pps as being a remake well it's not the next remake at least i guess they intend to make it but the one that they have now indicated in um i think it was announced in a very strange fashion like on a forum or something i'm not quite entirely sure but but anyway the announcement was deemed having been made that attack from mars would in fact be the next actual remake and my understanding is that stern will not be building this one. I don't know if it's known who will be actually assembling the game for them. They don't have their own factory.
    69:21
    Tony, I know Attack from Mars is your most favoritest pinball machine ever. At least it was until the last Pizza West tournament. What are your thoughts? Just because the game hated me, I still love it. It wasn't its fault that they were against me.
    69:39
    I'm happy that there's going to be more Attack from Mars is out there. There's already a bunch. I mean, it's one of the games I track, even though I know I'm not going to be able to afford one anytime soon. But it's always nice to see something. And the question is, will it bring down the price of the old, original used ones, or will it be something that just kind of exists in its own way? But all in all, I'm real happy to see it, Because like I said, that's a game that I truly love, and someday I will have it in my collection. That is my dream game. Your grail? The grail.
    70:24
    It's very probably my grail. But it's an easy grail to get, so it makes me feel like it's not a grail. I still think Campus Queens is my grail.
    70:33
    Okay. Because it's a lot harder to get. Right. So you sort of use rarity to define grailness. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if your Grail was a Quick Trip mug, that's not nearly as impressive as your Grail being the Grail. Right, right.
    70:49
    That's a fair point. I'm going on a quest. Where are you going? To Quick Trip. That's not – it's a whole different level of – Fair enough, Tony. Fair enough. Yeah, I don't – I think it's a logical pick. it structurally is not all that dissimilar from medieval madness though i don't know that really has much to do with it uh parts wise i imagine it's pretty straightforward to get it you know the custom plastics and stuff and get it built uh i yeah i don't know if it's going to have a big impact on price see medieval madness it made so much sense because they were selling more used than the remake sold for new so it was a really smart buy for a lot of people who really wanted it And I don't – I think Attack for Mars can be had for less than $8,000 used. So maybe not in pristine condition, but in working condition. So I don't know. It depends where they price it. I mean, if they priced it at like $6,000 or $6,500, which I know some people have posted on Pennside hoping will in fact be the price, then you could sort of have that medieval madness effect where people would be like, well, the used have to come down or else I'm just going to buy new because it's cheaper to buy new than used. And that's ridiculous. You're only going to get the people to buy used at that point who are insistent that they want the original one that says Williams on it. And there a segment like that but it not enough of a segment I don believe to actually keep the cost up And the medieval madness has started to fall when the remakes started to roll but if they price it at eight i don know if it going to impact the market much then i think you it becomes a people who are like well do i want to pay eight thousand dollars for a used not pristine one or eight thousand dollars for a remake that's going to in theory not have any mechanical issues out of the box yeah um i i'm a bit surprised they didn't stick with the medieval madness strategy and do something a lot more rare like going ahead and doing see that's why i thought cactus canyon made so much sense because they didn't make even a thousand of those i would have said medieval or excuse me monster bash would have made more sense though i with universal and the monsters i bet that obviously attack from mars avoids any licensing issue because it was an original theme to williams um there are a few other games though that are that are rarer is the thing. So while it's really popular, I just, honestly, I'd be surprised if it sells well. If it's priced at $8,000, I'd really be surprised if it sells all that well. Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with you because, like you said, there are other options I think might have been better. But here's something that just popped into my head, and this could be my whacked out, super tired, sick brain doing weird things. But you said Stern's not building them. We don't know who is building them.
    73:45
    Is American Pinball building them? That's one of the things they list that they do is manufacturing of somebody else's design. I don't know. It's just something that's a possibility that was floating out there because I was trying to think of pinball companies that would do manufacturing like that. And that's just popped into mind because I remember that was one of the things they said on their website originally. So I'm not saying that's so. I'm not saying anything. I mean, it's just something that popped in my head. It's not something I've heard from anybody other than my own insanity. But it popped in there real quick. Well, I mean, I guess my thought would be they could be in contention to do it, except they have no track record of making pinball, is why I wouldn't think. I mean, it'd be more like, here's my take on American pinball. And I thought we'd get through an episode where we didn't have to talk about it. I'm sorry. I brought it up. Whatever. It's my fate.
    74:47
    My thought is American Pinball is trying to make Houdini. They may be still involved in some way with letting John Papaduke execute on his Magic Girls once the legal and administrative issues are resolved. I don't think they're in a position to do a third pin on top of that. I think they need Houdini to be built to prove to people that they actually can do what they say they're going to do, which is manufacture pinball machines. After that, I could see if they were successful, if they are successful, I could see someone like PPS perhaps turning to them and saying, okay, we want you to do the build. You've shown that you actually have an operating factory that can execute. But until then, I don't think PPS would do that. I'd almost say they'd be more likely to try and contract with Spooky.
    75:43
    I think that's probably a more likely way to deal with it and a more likely thought. Or just somebody else entirely, but just heavy manufacturing. It's one of those things where I think it could be a system that would be too poisoned. It'd be too poisoned of a well to start with.
    76:01
    I think they just wouldn't want to chance the delay issue because Medieval Madness remake was perfect. plagued with delays with it being through Stern. And a lot of people waited a really long time to get the machines. And there was a lot of heartburn about how some of the customers felt they were treated in, in trying to acquire that game. So I just, I would assume that the company would be more sensitive to that this time around. And the way you show that sensitivity would not be to go with someone who is only so far claimed on paper that they can make pinball machines. Hasn't actually ever done it.
    76:37
    Yep, makes sense to me It was just something that popped into my mind Well no, it's an interesting thought I'd never considered it I could just see it as something It'd be a good way for A. American Pinball To prove themselves while they're still Working on Houdini And B. Because of it I wonder if they Could do it To use it as a way To produce themselves they could make it as a Cheaper price for PPS which would make it easier to work with was just thoughts that came to mind. No, it's interesting. That one's going to bounce around in my brain for a while now because I know I hadn't contemplated it but technically, yeah, I could. I mean, it's conceivable. It is.
    77:24
    Well, I think we've conceived of enough on pinball. So let's go ahead. I think so. And finally, let's hop to video games. I know we're a ways out but I want to talk a bit about the Evo Championship Series. Evo, for those that do not know, or Evolution Championship Series, I believe it's its full name, but everyone calls it Evo. That is, it's held in the summer. That is sort of the premier fighting game tournament in the world.
    77:52
    It's all about competitive fighting games, the best of the best, typically not just from America, but from around the world, come to America and they play in it. It's been around for years. And I thought I'd discuss it because the lineup has been announced. And it's always sort of telling because the lineup, in a way, can say a lot about the fighting game community and what's sort of trending versus what's not trending. I don't play a lot of fighting games, but I do watch Evo. And I do actually all Twitch stream fighting games because I understand what's going on in them. I don't have the execution abilities to be great at them, but I do enjoy it. It's one of the ones where when you hear eSport, yeah, there's always a talk about Dota and League of Legends and all that. But this is what I always think of with eSport. I always think of fighting games first because that's the first thing I ever watched as a video game from a spectator perspective back in college when we didn't have cable. And we just had people playing Street Fighter. Yep. This is how it was back in the day. So here's the lineup for EVO. The games that are returning. So they were at EVO last year. Street Fighter V. No shock. That's going to be the premier fight. It always is. Street Fighter's always got the best time slots, and it's always got the most submissions in terms of people who are actually applying and playing in pools to try and qualify for the finals and such. Super Smash Bros. Melee, that's the old Smash from the old CRT days. Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, that's the new Smash game, new-ish Smash game, I should say, newest. And Tekken 7. So those are the returning games. the games that will be new to Evo this year will be BlazBlue Central Fiction Guilty Gear XRD Rev 2 The King of Fighters 14 and Injustice 2 this leaves one final slot for what's known as the main stage for Evo, there are a number of side tournaments that go on of all sorts of games while this is happening incidentally but these are the ones that are widely televised on Twitch and such the last slot is going to be determined by vote and they're actually tying the vote so people have to donate money to a charity and then it's getting tallied up and done that way so yeah they're trying to raise raise some funds for a good cause doing it but the games people can vote on to be in the last slot uh pokin tournament ultimate marvel versus capcom 3 which last i looked a couple days ago was what was in the lead Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat XL, Skull Girls 2 Encore, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, that's real old, Nidhogg, ARMS, that weird one that we saw with the Nintendo Switch, and Windjammers.
    80:39
    So we don't know which one of those will be ultimately in the final, and I know that slot, well, when I last saw it was Marvel. It has been moving around a bit. I just thought it would be interesting to discuss because of the – in terms of the new games, it's interesting because they actually – Guilty Gear and BlazBlue are both what are considered anime games. Typically, there's only one anime game that's actually featured at Evo, but they're doing both of these. I think BlazBlue – Hasn't it typically kind of alternated because BlazBlue and Guilty Gear normally had a new game about every other year? So wouldn't they normally play the one that was the newest one in line? Yes. I'm not a huge Evo person, but I seem to recall that sort of – No, you're right. And one of these – I was going to say I thought it was the BlazBlue one, but I'm actually not sure which one. So I don't want to say which. But one of these will only be out for a very brief period of time before this event happens. So it's not going to get a whole lot of practice time in theory. But I don't know. I read a comment on a forum speculating that the reason for this might be to try and appeal more to Japan to see if they could get more Japanese players to fly over for EVO. And by putting in two anime games that they would... And a lot of the players across these two games are the same. So they could actually come and compete in two games. that it might be just related to that.
    82:15
    Some of the notable, I mean, like Mortal Kombat being dropped doesn't surprise, because it's there for the donation vote, but Injustice kind of functions. It's functionally Mortal Kombat. So with Injustice moving in, I'm not surprised that Mortal Kombat dropped. They freed up a space by dropping Killer Instinct. I was going to say, I thought KI was main stage last year. It was, and it was the year before as well. and that might be sort of surprising to people because Killer Instinct Season 3 just came out so it's not like the game's not supported it's still actively supported Killer Instinct had one of the if not the lowest attendance of players though last year it was very low compared to the other games so there are less the player pool is smaller than a lot of the other games so that could be part of the reason why it was dropped from a guaranteed slot I also have read that Killer Instinct has its own World Cup series, which is where all the KI players like to involve themselves. And so I've heard it argued that they don't really need Evo because they have that. but I was talking to Mike who we referenced earlier and he noted well Capcom has the Capcom Cup for Street Fighter and Street Fighter is still a big deal at Evo so I think that one rings a little false but other than there is a KI community and they are active in other ways that don't involve Evo so it's not like the game has died all of a sudden perhaps the most surprising one is the dropping of Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 because that has been there as long as I have watched Evo So its attendance figures have also fallen quite a bit. Historically, it was one of the top watch slash views draws on Twitch, though.
    84:03
    The game hasn't been supported in years, however, and it's very unbalanced. So I wonder if it's partly that, partly that its community has kind of moved on. But I also thought, well, maybe Evo would like to do it because it has been announced that a fourth one is getting made. We covered that on a previous episode. So I wondered, this would probably be the last Evo for it. And so I was a bit surprised that it was dropped. I wouldn't be surprised if it wins the donation vote because of that. Just kind of like its final little swan song, so to speak. But anyway, it being wiped out as well. It wasn't considered an anime game. So, you know, in a way, it's like there's more anime now than there was. I think, as usual, 3D fighting is not very well represented at Evo. I think Tekken 7 is the only one, and I think Tekken 7 was the only 3D fighter last year that was main stage. So they're just not, you know, like Soul Calibur is a 3D fighter. They just don't. Well, there hasn't been a new Soul Calibur in a while either. No, I guess 5. 5, I think, only got Evo one year. It just wasn't popular.
    85:13
    I loved that game so much. you didn't love it enough to save it for Evo. Apparently. That's the one fighting game I think I've ever played where I could have potentially actually been a good player, just because of the sheer amount of time I put into Soul Calibur 2.
    85:32
    The only one on this list that I would have any mainstay knowledge in would actually be Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, because it's so old. It's interesting that it's up for contention. but honestly most of those outside of like doing the ex moves and stuff most of my street fighter knowledge actually would translate into street fighter 5 it's still the same move to throw a hadouken and a shuriken it's not that stuff's been the same so it's not i don't think it's that weird to transition to the new ones i haven't played five but i did play four a little bit street fire 4 but anyway uh it's a ways off and we'll have to see but i just thought it was it's interesting just to see where fighting games where the fighting game community is heading so knowing i i really think melee smash melee just needs to go i think it's ridiculous that they're still hauling crt tvs around and letting people play that on the main stage um yeah but it's also insanely popular as i recall so well it's as broken as as uh marvel if not more so. I mean, everyone's just Fox.
    86:37
    Well, and here's the thing is I've never understood. I don't actually think Smash Brothers is fun to watch. I know it's heresy, but of everything at Evo that plays, I don't care to watch Smash Brothers because watching a one-on-one Smash Brothers just isn't fun to me. I don't understand the enjoyment of it. Oh, yeah, I've seen it a number of times. I don't mind watching Smash Wii U. I think Smash Melee, the default conditions that they do competitively, make it not fun to watch. The clock is way too long. They have way too many life pips to deal through. you know uh it's just it's it's just long it's the longest of anything i've ever seen in a fighting game uh in terms of uh there have been cases where i've seen it almost time out and it's just ridiculous it's just it's just too long the rounds are too long i think that's its biggest problem the rounds are way too long and in the wii u version you don't have as many life stocks to have to deal with. So it seems to go faster, but I don't know. It is, it is what it is. But anyway, I, that's what I wanted to touch on in terms of video games. I didn't know if you had anything outside of Evo you wanted to talk about. Um, just a couple little comments. Uh, nothing that big to talk about. I did see, and we put it on the Facebook page, there was a white paper leak about Scorpio and it looks like a lot of the numbers that have been being bandied around are still in the list so it still looks like Scorpio is going to be a massive upgrade to the Xbox system also I just saw a little while ago that Twitch has finally had a stream break a million concurrent viewers Wow That was the finals Of The CSGO ELEAGUE major And They broke a million views A million concurrent viewers Sounds like view bots That's pretty bloody impressive to me So And that was this morning So The Congratulations to them I am shocked that CSGO is the most popular esport out there for watching. I'm in shock how many people still play CSGO.
    89:10
    And it's one of those things where CSGO's actual player base is actually continuing to go up constantly. and it's really not changed since when Counter-Strike first came out I mean, it's a new version with new this and that, but the maps are the same most of the stuff's the same so it's definitely kind of shocking to me but it is huge and amazingly popular I hear a number of the people who stream on Overwatch seem to have come from Counter-Strike, so it gets discussed a lot while they're doing their Overwatch streams, which I catch from time to time. So, yeah, it's got a lot of love.
    90:01
    It does. Okay, well, we got tabletop, don't we? We have tabletop. Besides my utter failure due to taking care of sick people and getting myself sick, I did have an interesting discussion that came up today that I found.
    90:19
    One of the most popular conventions held nationwide that everybody knows about anymore is PAX. There's PAX West, PAX East, PAX South, and PAX Australia, and PAX Developer. and one of these days I'm going to make it to a PAX, probably PAX South because they're the easiest one to get to from where I'm at. Because you like grits.
    90:44
    Yes, because I like cheesy grits. Well, yes. Of course. But no. Well, no, it's just because it's so much easier to get to Texas than it is to get to either coast from Kansas. so but there has always been all the PAX's have had just like they've got a little several of them have been having a little pinball section lately they've also been having fairly decent sized tabletop sections well the organizers of PAX have decided that they want to take this to the next level and they have announced PAX Unplugged is a purely tabletop PAX. There will be no video games there. So it's going to be more in the vein of Origins, which is in Pennsylvania in the spring. Gen Con, where I will get to go eventually, which is in Indianapolis in the summer. Or Board Game Geeks Con, which is in Texas in November. in this case PAX Unplugged is in Philadelphia in November the same weekend as BGGCon by the way but like most I'm sure like most of the PAX's it's going to start out lowish and ramp up because I know it took a while for PAX East to ramp up to where PAX West is and PAX South is still in the ramp up but what was humorous to me when I learned about this is it's the same weekend as the Philadelphia Marathon.
    92:25
    That's one of the bigger marathons, if I recall. Yeah, it's in the top 10 in the nation. There are 30,000 plus runners and normally 60,000 plus spectators. So there could be a little problem if it's too close. And that's the problem is the race route literally goes around the convention center. so that whole area is going to be cordoned off and hotel rooms are going to be incredibly hard to find so I'm thinking that they're probably not going to have the greatest first year considering that it seems like I don't know if it's something that they set up and did if they ran the numbers if it's something they knew about and they figured, well, their numbers are going to be low enough being a first-year con that they thought it would be okay, which is entirely possible, because if you can get into the hotel within walking distance of the convention center, things will be fine. Or if it's something that just kind of didn't get noticed until all the papers were signed or what, but I think it's going to be kind of interesting to see how that affects it, because, I mean, yes, Philadelphia is a large town with a lot of stuff, and this is going to be a con that doesn't have a huge turnout considering it's the first year of the con, but you're still talking about 90,000-plus people that you're vying for hotel space with, and the entire downtown completely shut down.
    94:02
    Yeah, I'm going to go with they didn't realize it for 500, Alex. So, yeah, I think it's going to make for an interesting weekend for them. I think they are going to have some issues, but I think in the long run we'll just have to see what happens and see if this actually hurts PAX Unplugged as something that exists. Now I'm understanding that That the Since it's Situated in a good place For people from the east coast and The eastern part of Midwest to get to being in Philly So There should still be a solid amount of turnout Because there's nothing really after Gen Con Of that kind of size But we'll see It just seemed It was humorous when I saw it well at the very least I think it's pretty exciting that another potentially what we I mean because it's got the pack's name on it I'll go ahead and call it another major tabletop convention is in the works at least yeah and we'll have a link to it in the show notes for people that want to go to the site and read up on it if they're interested in competing with all the marathoners don't try and outrun them though you'll probably be in trouble well that's that's all about distance I mean most marathoners aren't sprinters yeah that is a good point and A I would have said maybe they were planning on a lot of them like collapsing around the convention and just being brought in there to recover and then they just stay and play games but given that it's in November I don't think heat stroke is going to be a huge problem probably not no well I guess that's it and so you don't suffer from sick heat stroke while recording we'll probably go ahead and close this on out. So I will remind our listeners, we love feedback, so feel free to give us some. You can email us, eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com, or contact us on Facebook. That would be facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast.
    96:07
    We are on Twitter and Instagram at eclectic underscore gamers. And I'm sorry I've been lower energy than normal, but it was great having a chance to talk to all of you. Yeah. So anyway, until next time, I'll say again, my name is Dennis, and I will bid you farewell.
    96:25
    And I'm Tony. Talk to you soon.