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We Are Pinball #22 "Tariffs, UV playfields, and other stuff we don't understand"

We Are Pinball (WAP)·podcast_episode·1h 18m·analyzed·Feb 4, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Tariffs crushing European pinball sales; D&D LE selling well despite dragon parts delays.

Summary

We Are Pinball episode 22 opens with extended discussion of U.S. tariffs and geopolitical tension affecting European pinball distributors and consumers. Cengiz (Denmark) expresses frustration about 25% tariffs on imports, compounded by VAT, making games unaffordable and destabilizing consumer confidence across Europe. The hosts then pivot to positive industry news: D&D Limited Edition is selling well despite earlier concerns, with parts delays on the dragon mechanism affecting LE production but not Pro models. They highlight Pinball at the Beach (Feb 7, Florida) as a major community event.

Key Claims

  • Stern ships 50% of production outside the U.S., making tariffs existentially threatening to the market

    high confidence · Cengiz cites this as established fact; Don corroborates concern about export dependency

  • D&D Limited Edition (1974 units produced) is selling through briskly with good consumer confidence

    high confidence · Don states this based on market observation of LE sales velocity and consumer sentiment post-John Wick/X-Men concerns

  • Dragon mechanism parts delays are affecting LE production but not Pro models

    high confidence · Don reports hearing that Pros have been built while LE production is delayed; speculates on powder coating or speaker lights as bottleneck

  • A D&D LE at Kickback Cafe (Madison) experienced a board failure that disabled the dragon mechanism

    high confidence · Don reported seeing this posted publicly; game remains playable but dragon stuck in B mode; warranty replacement in progress

  • 25% tariffs combined with European VAT (25%) make new games cost ~$15,000+, killing sales confidence

    high confidence · Cengiz describes cumulative impact: base MSRP + 25% VAT + 25% tariff makes overseas purchase untenable

  • Used game market in Europe is collapsing due to uncertainty; sellers holding inventory instead of listing

    medium confidence · Cengiz reports no used games for sale in Europe because 'nobody's buying' and people are hoarding cash

  • Novo Nordisk (Ozempic/Wegovy manufacturer) became Europe's richest company due to U.S. sales at 10x markup

    medium confidence · Cengiz cites this as example of trade imbalance; Don extends to retaliatory tariff concern on pharma

  • Pinball at the Beach (Feb 7, Florida) will feature all new release titles and Stern Spike 2 games

    high confidence · Don details event: 1,000 tickets, resort venue, guest roster includes Jeremy Packer, George Gomez, Keith Elwin, Spooky team

Notable Quotes

  • “We cannot import games... we cannot buy pinball machines this way and not enough with that.”

    Cengiz @ ~05:00 — Opens core theme: tariff/geopolitical crisis hitting European distributors

  • “Stern has said for years now 50% of their production gets shipped out. It's out of the U.S., right? And that market is just – if this happens, it kills 50% of the sales.”

    Don @ ~18:00 — Stakes the existential threat to Stern's business model on tariff policy

  • “It's consuming my entire life for the last 72 hours. It's been incredible.”

    Cengiz @ ~02:30 — Describes intense engagement with Evil Dead pinball; sets enthusiastic tone for game praise

  • “If this goes on any longer, it may be years before we can get back to where we were just a couple of months ago.”

    Don @ ~25:00 — Warns of long-term damage to consumer confidence and market recovery

  • “We're done selling pinball machines over here. I mean, this has to stop.”

    Cengiz @ ~20:00 — Expresses despair from European distributor perspective; implies market collapse risk

  • “I think that's acceptable as long as everybody's transparent and it's working out.”

    Don @ ~38:00 — Pragmatic stance on D&D dragon board failure; frames occasional quality issues as acceptable trade-off for innovation

  • “Please don't threaten your best allies over here. Just leave us alone.”

    Cengiz @ ~22:00 — Emotional appeal reflecting NATO alliance frustration and military threat rhetoric from U.S. over Greenland

  • “Consumer confidence towards Dungeons and Dragons seems to be fairly favorable. It's selling, not selling out, but seems to be selling through fairly briskly.”

    Don @ ~30:00 — Positive market signal for D&D LE after John Wick and X-Men concerns

Entities

CengizpersonDonpersonStern PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyDungeons & Dragons (D&D) Limited EditiongameEvil Dead CEgamePinball at the BeacheventKickback Cafeorganization

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Consumer confidence collapse threatens supply chain recovery post-COVID; uncertainty preventing new purchases and game liquidations

    high · Don: 'if we're liquidating games and no one's buying them, who's going to buy the new one box? And then everything's going to grind to a halt.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's 50% export-dependent revenue at risk from tariff policy; European market may collapse if tariffs persist

    high · Don: 'Stern has said for years now 50% of their production gets shipped out. It's out of the U.S., right? And that market is just – if this happens, it kills 50% of the sales.'

  • ?

    community_signal: WAP Patreon mod-of-the-month initiative launching with Josh Cox; custom Evil Dead Ralph mod being created as trial offering

    medium · Don: 'I would like to do a pinball mod of the month level or something on Patreon... Josh Cox, he's our highest level $100 support... I'm printing up... Evil Dead retro Ralph mod'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Brian Eddy known for reliable, innovation-balanced design; D&D dragon mechanism represents significant innovation without introducing unreliable diverters/systems

    medium · Don: 'we know Brian Eddy. Design doesn't take a lot of risks that aren't going to pay off... I don't think we've seen a mechanism like this since maybe Godzilla'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball at the Beach (Feb 7, St. Petersburg, Florida) major community event with 1,000 tickets; roster includes George Gomez, Jeremy Packer, Keith Elwin, Spooky team

    high · Don: 'only sell 1,000 tickets... Every Stern Spike 2 game will be there to be played... Jeremy Packer there... george gomez will be there uff keith ellen will be hanging around'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.237

0:00
You got two Sigmas here on We Are Pinball, episode number 22. It is the time, the era of the Avatar CE. The time of the evil dead from Spooky Pinball. The time of the burning dragon, D&D. We're going to get into all that and more here with my buddy Cengiz on this frosty Monday morning from Wisconsin. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great, man. The Sigma Sigma boys are back in town. We're back, buddy. 20 days later, number 22. We are pinball. We're going to have some fun, man. We're so sorry we let you wait 20 days, but we are jam-packed with a lot of new stuff we want to share with you guys. I have been missing doing this down here. How are you, buddy? So much stuff has been going on. Can you believe it? Where to start? We got Avatar shipping all over the world now. We got D&D blowing up and on fire. Not really, but we got straight fire in a crate from Spooky Pinball in Evil Dead. It's consuming my entire life for the last 72 hours. It's been incredible. You're not sleeping? You're up all day long? There ain't no time to sleep, man. no now and now we got the the euro trash duo here to bring some new we are pinball to the sigma audience oh my god where do we even start what are we in starry hours sigma boys well before we start talking about pinball i'm gonna share something with you donnie because i'm a bit angry i'm a bit more than a bit angry man we cannot import games what's going on i mean okay I understand like 80% of Americans voted for this president and I have nothing against it. It's okay. If Donnie voted for him, it's okay. I don't know. It was not 80%, by the way, just letting that sit out there.
2:11
Right, Donnie? Yeah. Right. But yeah, you got your new president and congratulations with that. We're absolutely getting what we paid for. That's for sure. It hasn't been one moment of non-chaos in the last week and a half. It feels like a month. Nobody. Donnie, you're from the U.S. I'm from Europe. Denmark is the best allies for you guys for centuries now. I just want to say for decades and decades. Don't kind of convince me. Americans want to do something in Europe. Denmark opens its doors. Come inside. I mean, every time you want to go to war, we send our troops, we help. We're the best supporters of you guys. Okay, Tony? It has been like this for many, many, many years. Right? Yeah. So your new president just steps into office, calls us up, and he says he wants Greenland. Sure. Why not? And we're like, what? Yeah. Our allies? And we're like, it's not for sale. and then your president says, but I want to pay a lot of money so no Danish will pay taxes for the next 100 years. And you're like, all right, cool, but it's still not for sale. And do you know what he says then? He will use military force. What the heck? Donnie, we're friends. What's going on? What he doesn't have is a good track record for accuracy in what he says. And to be honest, none of us know what's actually going to happen. I have no idea what's going on. I know yesterday in the United States, across-the-board tariffs went into effect for Canadian goods for some reason. So now maple syrup and Mooseburgers are going to be 25% more expensive. But we're not paying that money to Canada. It's just an increased tax to whatever him and Elon have going on. I have no idea what's happening. Oh, my God. I mean, it's panic over here. Yeah. Our prime minister is flying from country to country and saying, remember, we're all allies if Trump attacks. I mean, what? What? Uses military force? It's so stupid. And Trump says that he wants Greenland to, you know, have some troops and have more security up there. And we said, you're most welcome. Yeah. Just come with your ships. You have bases. We have had American bases in Greenland for many years. You have a base here in Denmark. You're most welcome. We're allies. We're friends. Darn it, we're friends. If anyone out there knows the strategy that's being played out here, please let us know because I've watched this kind of stuff. And I can see the nuance through a lot of the media and the bluster from politicians. And it's part of it that I enjoy. But honestly, I have no idea what – if there is a plan, what the plan is or how this is going to play out, man. because it's already expensive for U.S. companies to get games bought in Europe due to value-added tax, right, a luxury tax that pays for a lot of the social goods that you enjoy over there. And then to have just an across-the-board, you know, 25% on top of that, that's going to be a no-go, man. How are we going to move not only Avatar CEs, but the rest of the inventory of Berrio's Barbecue Challenge, the new Galaxy Tank Force stripped-down edition? you know 79.95 now it's going to cost you know upwards of you know 10 11 grand i don't know man don't we we cannot buy games we cannot buy pinball machines this way and not enough with that usually we pay one percent off we call it bnp i think in u.s it's called gdp yeah right yeah yeah usually we pay one percent every year to the military maintenance but we don't really have military We have some special trained troops, but over here we don't believe in all that. We believe in diplomacy, talk, and be good friends with each other. Yeah. Now Trump says if you want to continue to be a part of NATO, we need to take that 1% up to 5%. That's crazy. And now our politicians are talking about we should put it, and we're paying like 50% tax. They want us to pay war tax or Trump will be angry. What the heck, Tony? And I can tell you right now that money is not going to us.
Brian Eddy
person
John Wickgame
X-Mengame
Novo Nordiskcompany
Josh Cox (Velvet Steve)person
Jeremy Fordperson
Enzo Paganiniperson
George Gomezperson
Keith Elwinperson
Jeremy Packerperson
Carrie Hardyperson
  • $

    market_signal: Used pinball game market in Europe frozen; sellers holding inventory due to zero buyer confidence amid tariff uncertainty

    medium · Cengiz: 'there are almost no used games for sale over here because we tried and nobody's buying. Everybody's just holding to their money.'

  • $

    market_signal: 25% U.S. tariffs combined with 25% European VAT making new pinball games cost ~$15,000+, destroying consumer purchasing power and confidence

    high · Cengiz: 'we pay 25% VAT on top of the US price, MSRP price. But now with 25% tariff on top of that, that's ludicrous. That's like $15,000.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: D&D LE production delayed due to dragon mechanism parts constraints; Pros building while LEs waiting

    high · Don: 'I think right now there's more people waiting on this game than they've supplied... So parts delay. The rumor is part delay with Dragon stuff.'

  • ?

    product_concern: D&D LE board failure at Kickback Cafe; dragon mechanism disabled but game remains playable; warranty replacement in progress

    high · Don: 'their D&D LE is still playable, but that dragon is now in B mode where he doesn't move and it sounds like they're waiting on a new board or something.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: D&D LE confidence recovery after John Wick and X-Men market concerns; Brian Eddy's design credibility restoring buyer trust

    high · Don: 'Consumer confidence towards Dungeons and Dragons seems to be fairly favorable... nice to see coming off of games like John Wick and the current turmoil over X-Men.'

    • 6:39
    No, but now they're talking about we're going to make a huge factory here in Denmark so we can produce two major warships. And we don't believe in war and weapons, blah, blah, blah. So these warships are going to cost a billion dollars each, and they're going to sail around Greenland. so Trump will be happy. And this project, if they start it right now, it will be done by 2030. It's just, we all feel like it's a waste of money. I mean, can we just be friends? And you have so much war stuff. Just come over here. We won't charge you nothing. All the doors are open. You can have your tanks, your ships, and all of that just right in our harbors. It's okay. We love America. Yeah, but just don't use military force threatening us. That's not cool. I mean, honestly, I have no idea what strategy is being employed here. And I don't see how it helps pinball companies for sure. I don't see how it helps us either. If you know out there, please contact wearepinballat69.com and explain exactly what we can expect to happen here. No ideas. I'm trying to lose myself in pinball now. But I want to be abreast of things that are going on. I don't want to just be steamrolled by politicians, but it makes it hard. It makes it really hard. I mean, you know, Stern has said for years now 50% of their production gets shipped out. It's out of the U.S., right? And that market is just – if this – it has happened. It kills 50% of the sales. It's crazy. Now, there's maybe one listener thinking, why are they talking about this? But this political stuff, it affects also pinball sales. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we can't survive on domestic U.S. sales alone. You know, pinball brothers can't shoulder all this themselves, you know. Exactly. I mean, I know pinball brothers. Their main target is the U.S. They're like U.S. first. I mean, if you wanted, is there anything that would make it harder to move an ABBA machine than asking for an extra 25% on top of it? Oh, my God. And we cannot just sell Greenland. I mean, first I was like, whoa, for 100 years we won't be paying taxes. That's a lot of money he wants to pay for Greenland. But why? I mean, in Greenland there are some minerals that's just lying on all that snow and blah, blah, blah. So I know there's a lot of stuff out there, but still threatening with military force. That's the first thing. And it's on the news all the time. Now you have trouble with Canada with tariff. You have trouble with, you know, exporting a lot of immigrants. And I saw this morning on TV a lot of – there was this owner of a place where he should pick apples and stuff like that, you know, farming stuff. And he had no workers. They didn't dare to come to work in fear of getting caught and shipped back to, I don't know, Columbia or what? That's happening here with production. I was just traipsing around southern Wisconsin and hearing that there's factories and other employment areas which are having workers now just in mass not show up, which is not good for the rebuilding of supply lines after COVID, man, to just put everything kind of up in the air. So I don't know. Don't ask me what the strategy is. I honestly have no idea. So we're watching this on the news. So if Trump administration – let me put it this way. Okay, so let me put it this way. If some guy just – we live on the border to Germany. If some guy from Germany walks into Denmark and does something criminal, okay, we will catch him and we will deport him right away. There's just nothing. If you want to come in here, it has to be in a legal way. So now you guys are throwing out, I don't know if it's Mexicans, if I got it wrong, or some from Colombia, whatever.
    11:02
    Are you deporting anybody from Mexico, or is it only criminal people? Well, good question. Now, there's no problem with generally anybody deporting people that are criminally accused and everything. The way that it's worked is that if you are a not naturalized citizen here, immigrant, and you commit crime, we have you work out your sentence here, and at the end of your sentence, you get on a bus and then back to whatever country of origin you come from. Fair. But what's changed now, though, is his executive order that ended birthright citizenship. You know, we've had this longstanding rule that if you're born in the country, you're a citizen regardless of who your parents are. Is that on your constitution? It is. So it's not something that can just be superseded. But, like, that's the attempt now. And so what that would lead to is, like, you know, okay, well, this person is of, you know, even though this person has never left the country, has only been here, they can now be rounded up and sent off to whatever historical origin country they're from. I would be picked up and sent back to Denmark because that's where my people came from. you know like i was born here my parents were born here but you go back enough generations were danish and then uh scotch irish or whatever so you know where do i go i've never i've never been to scotland never been to ireland but i guess that's where i would get kicked out to again no matter if you have done criminal stuff or not right right and so i don't know if it i don't know i have uh political opinions on the reasoning behind it um you know as far as like how it's going to play out and affect pinball. No idea.
    12:36
    Maybe the strategy is just to create chaos, and then in the confusion, you can make changes that maybe don't seem so bad by comparison, whereas otherwise it would be hugely scandalous. That would make sense to me. How it's good for U.S. manufacturers of games or even European importers of games here,
    12:55
    someone will have to show me, man, because I'm not smart enough to understand it. So the thing was, after one day, Egg prices should be lowered. Are they? Is it cheap to buy eggs for you now? No, no, no, the opposite.
    13:09
    Those prices have been going up. And I looked at the list of tariffs from Canada too, and it's just like everything across the board. Yeah, I don't know. I'm along for the ride, though, because I have no choice.
    13:22
    Okay. Well, I just want to say, first of all, congratulations with your new president. saying of all please don't attack us we're friends we love you we love america okay we love america don't attack us and this terror stuff i don't get it we cannot we're distros here we cannot sell pinball machines now now if that again so please yeah so the way it should work is like you know let's say that uh um home pin was just killing it with their themes and they were making games for half the price in Taiwan and shipping them to the U.S. and totally undercutting the whole United States pinball market to the point that Stern, Spooky, JJP, and everybody was about to fold because they couldn't compete with this product. That's where a tariff against HomePins imports from Taiwan of 25% to bring those prices up to parity, U.S.-made manufactured games could compete on price. So it would be like a protective tariff. That's kind of how strategically tariffs have worked. But just to say that everything across the board from this country, which is an ally, and it would only result in retaliatory the same thing against us, it doesn't seem helpful. Now, unfortunately, I don't think homepins a threat to U.S. manufacturing of pinball, but that would be a scenario that I think would make sense to me.
    14:44
    It is, as you're saying, because all the European countries are talking now and they're like, If he wants to do it like this, then we will do tariff the other way around. Because about a year or two years ago, Denmark has a big company called Novo Nordisk. So we made a product called Vigovy or Ozempic, if you know that. We love us some Ozempic over here, buddy. Yeah, you guys love it. Yeah. So when we opened up for the – we had it here in Denmark first, very cheap. And then we opened up for the U.S. market and the money the citizens of the U.S. are paying is 10 times what it costs here in Denmark. I don't know who makes all that extra money. You have a lot of VAT on top of that. But after that happened, 2024, that company is the biggest, richest company in Europe because of all the sales in the U.S. Okay. So if he does this, then we will give you guys tariff back. And these – Oh, my God. I didn't even think of that. I will give you 25% more. Because what we have right now is a pounds to crowns or a pounds to kroner pipeline. because the U.S. pounds that leave turn into Danish kroner heading over to Nova Nordisk. And so it's already expensive here to get Wagovia, Ozempic, Monjaro, these medicines.
    16:16
    God, I hate to think about retaliatory tariffs there too because not only now the supply is getting better, but still even with insurance it can be $250 a month for these medicines. And so for them to go up another 25%. What? For Ozempic? And that's with insurance. Now it depends on your insurance and everything. But, you know, sometimes your insurance may cover one but not the other one, and then they may decide to just switch. Okay, you know, or they'll change which pharmacy you can pick it up from. It has to be mail order now, all this business.
    16:46
    I can tell you, here in Denmark, one milligram of Ozempic that you can use for a month, that costs $110 U.S. So I wonder if it – With no help, no nothing, if you just buy it. It's going to be cheaper for me to just board a plane ticket to Copenhagen, and get my Osempic at the airport and just fly back home. I'll just commute.
    17:08
    Yeah. I can hear the anger and frustration. Oh, yeah, go ahead. I was just saying I can hear frustration from our U.S. listeners now, but our media tends to be pretty insulated, and this is a worldwide global pinball market podcast, and my buddy here is in Denmark, like literally receiving military threats from an ally constantly. So I just want to share like his perspective, like this. This is real. You know what's going on with him. And and I'm not seeing, you know, the feedback and how this is received in Denmark on any of our major media outlets. So, like, you know, thank you for the transparency in your perspective because you're seeing it firsthand. We're not seeing all this. It's on TV 24 seven. It's it's chaos, man. And we're like, we will give America tariff back. And, you know, these Olympics, the U.S. is the biggest market. And if we get threats like this, economical threats, then we can give some threats back. But nothing with military force. That's ludicrous. We are friends. So I hope that this just stops from now on because our politicians, it's chaos over here, man. Now we need to pay war taxes? We cannot buy more pinball machines? Chaos is not stabilizing. I want a nice, kind of stable, easy-to-understand economy so I can plan for the future. Harry Potter is going to get announced here in another month, but its production is not going to be for another six months at least. And I have to know, is it safe to put a deposit down now? I don't know what's going to happen in six months. I don't know what's going to happen in two months. I don't know what eggs are going to be next week. So how could I lock in this multi-five-figure purchase for six months from now, not knowing what's even happening now, right? I'm telling you, a month ago when Evil Dead got announced, we had people that were interested. Before they saw a gameplay video, they were just interested because of the theme. And a month ago, they were nervous about buying this game from Spooky, who are also Spooky Distros. And they were like, let's just wait because we pay 25% VAT on top of the US price, MSRP price. But now with 25% tariff on top of that, that's ludicrous. That's like $15,000. I mean, we're done selling pinball machines over here. I mean, this has to stop. And as I said Stern 50 of their sales is out of the U right So I seen you have trouble with Canada also and you want what Panama Canal also Mexican Gulf something also? My worry is that unless this kind of stops and the consumer confidence can stabilize, if this goes on any longer, it may be years before we can get back to where we were just a couple of months ago, You know, like that sense of normalcy that like, okay, we feel confident purchasing games. Look at the used market right now. It's terrible. Well, it's good for buyers. But if you're trying to sell a game right now, there's so much uncertainty that I'm just seeing prices like come down. More and more games are getting listed. People are maybe leaving the hobby of owning home machines. And, you know, for a machine like Stern, JJP, Spooky, like they need to know that they can sell these next 1,000, 5,000, 10,000 games next year. and we don't even know if we can make any further purchases. And if we're liquidating games and no one's buying them, who's going to buy the new one box? And then everything's going to grind to a halt. And over here, people are nervous. They don't want to use their money. And everybody in the pinball hobby knows. So they don't even want to put their games for sale anymore. There are almost no used games for sale over here because we tried and nobody's buying. Everybody's just holding to their money. Oh, my God, war taxes. and we cannot afford to buy something new. It's just chaos over here. This is not cool. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't vote for Trump or I have something against Trump. It's nothing like that. Don't get this wrong. If you're a Trump supporter, please don't get this wrong. I respect everybody's vote, okay? It has nothing to do with that. It's just please don't threaten your best allies over here. Just leave us alone. Yeah, just in a friendly way. Okay, I hope no one misunderstands this. I'm sure World War II wasn't good for pinball sales back in the day either. Let's not do that again. Oh, my goodness. So, yeah, just sending up some world situation. When people will go back and listen to early February 3rd, 2025, what was going on, Europe was in chaos, man. Let's see what's going to happen. All right, Donnie. Yeah. Let's go in and deep dive different pinball companies. First of all, I just want to talk about Stern a couple of seconds ago. So what have you heard about?
    22:08
    Oh, about the dragon fire. I think it's where you're getting at there before you. Sales of Dungeons of Dragons. Let's go. Okay, yeah. So consumer confidence towards Dungeons and Dragons seems to be fairly favorable.
    22:22
    It's selling, not selling out, but seems to be selling through fairly briskly. People are now getting their LEs. So this was nice to see coming off of games like John Wick and the current turmoil over X-Men. I don't think anybody really knows how that dust is going to settle. So it's nice to see, hey, we got Brian Eddy. We know Brian Eddy.
    22:42
    Design doesn't take a lot of risks that aren't going to pay off. It's got a really cool dragon. I don't think we've seen a mechanism like this since maybe Godzilla, something as large as that. And still, this thing does things that the Godzilla building didn't do. So we're seeing some innovation, but the layout seems to be fairly reliable. You know, there's not some crazy diverters or anything going on. So I think confidence in this game is there. Still a bit of a parts delay when it comes to that fancy dragon. So I've heard that not only have some premiums been run, which we weren't expecting those until next month, but some pros as well have been on the line here and there. Nice. Just because there was a slowdown in the premium LE build out. I know I haven't heard that my LE is ready to be picked up, and I think that's because of the parts delay. So I think right now there's more people waiting on this game than they've supplied. So that's better than having games in boxes nobody's buying, right? So parts delay. The rumor is part delay with Dragon stuff. How can they build premiums and not the LEs? It's the same Dragon. No, right, right. So I don't know if there was maybe the glossy side art or something, because the only difference really between the LE and premium in terms of build are things like glossy foil cabinet art, which I'm sure all those just get printed all at the same time. I can't imagine that holding it up. Maybe back up at the powder coater is the speaker lights or something maybe. I don't know. I'm sure they've got plenty of shaker motors.
    24:13
    So I guess we'll just have to see where that's coming up. Now, the Pro Dragon doesn't have that ball mechanism, that physical ball lock that's inside there. It doesn't have the diverter behind in that lane to divert balls into said physical ball lock. And it doesn't have the extra degrees of motion, you know, so maybe just a simple hinge and a coil or something. So I think that's how pros can be made while the premiums may be delayed a bit. And who knows? Maybe they were putting these things together and all the boards started frying, right? Because I think we just saw that happen to one game on location just got posted yesterday. Yeah, what was that? This looks to be at Kickback Cafe in Madison, Wisconsin, a place I just visited for the first time. Phenomenal, 48 games, a bar, food. Looks like a really cool new spot in Madison, Wisconsin. Go check it out. Shout out. But what it sounds like is there was, now they said there was smoke. I don't know if anything was actually smoking or if it's just a connection on the board shorted. But their D&D LE is still playable, but that dragon is now in B mode where he doesn't move. and it sounds like they're waiting on a new board or something. So I don't know exactly what the problem was yet. I don't know with this dragon mechanism if there's a separate board in the mechanism itself that gets run. I don't know if, like, some solder was bad. You know, there was a short that shorted out a circuit and now it's not functioning. Or if there was actually – I don't think there was flames coming out of the cabinet because the game is still playable. That could be cool, man. Dungeon Dragons with flames. I think we're saving flames for the Rammstein music pin. Yeah. Come on. Dude, did you post something on our Patreon page? Anthony just wrote, gotta love some fresh WAP. Oh, yeah. I posted some photos as we were getting ready to record. I snapped some shots of us getting set up just to whet the appetite because I know people have been waiting for this new episode.
    26:04
    So that's coming out. But, yeah, I got some photos from Kickback. I was there the other day. Really cool spot. Game's playable, so I don't think it was catastrophic. It's probably a board that got fried, which is under warranty for an entire year for new in-box purchases. And they've already posted that they're in talks with Stern to get everything replaced and back working. So I don't think it's doom and gloom here for Dungeons & Dragons.
    26:25
    And if the price we need to pay for consistent innovation in pinball is occasionally a board gets fried and needs to be replaced, I think that's acceptable as long as everybody's transparent and it's working out. I haven't heard about any of the other LEs that have gone out having this issue. So if it starts popping up, then we'll know there's more of a problem. As for me. How many at least do they build this time? I don't remember.
    26:49
    740. Oh, yeah. That was, yeah, 1947. 1974 was Dungeons & Dragons. Yeah. I like that idea. I don't know why. I just like that it's under 1,000. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. This is the way to go. Absolutely. Okay. Let me take a moment since you paused there To go ahead and give a shout out to our awesome Who are getting a Dungeons and Dragons limited edition Oh let's see This guy right here I am Anybody else let us know I want to take a moment since you paused there I was going to give a shout out to our Patreon members Let's go ahead and get Josh Cox right up off the bat Josh Cox This guy this freaking legend I got his mods I'm printing up right now I would like to do a pinball mod of the month level or something on Patreon somehow, where you could just subscribe, and every month I can take one of the neat things that I'm making and I'll just send it to you. So he's going to be the trial for this. So I'm printing up. Remember that Evil Dead retro Ralph mod that I came up with, like child Ralph strapped to the chair being forced to watch Evil Dead? Well, it's printing right now, the final version of it. So I'll get one out to him, and anybody else, if you're interested, send me an email and cover some shipping. We'll get you one too. I mean, Josh Cox, he's our highest level $100 support. Velvet Steve, right? And I think for $100 a month to get free pinball mod every month, not a bad idea. And he has direct access to us. So we have been talking to him, and he actually wrote some interesting stuff about the importance of our show in his pinball life. Really interesting stuff. so we cannot wait to have josh on this show and and share the story with you guys it's going to be so cool so thank you josh that's so cool the real velvet steve is a stage name but yeah we know it's josh yeah i love this guy uh we have more we have jeremy ford also jeremy ford the homeboy man yeah this guy's a solid dude i need to get him at the um the mod level too maybe see if he's interested but yeah shout out to you thank you so much we'll see you the 7th of january what Where are we going to be at the 7th? 7th of February is coming up next week. Pinball at the Beach, which will be in St. Petersburg, Florida. So these guys had this idea of let's get everybody down to Florida. Let's only sell 1,000 tickets. Let's have every pinball machine there so we can play ABBA and Barbecue and New Galactic Tank Force, like the killer titles. And also Evil Dead will be there. Dungeons & Dragons will be there. Every Stern Spike 2 game will be there to be played.
    29:21
    And we're going to have Jeremy Packer there. I'll be yet he's there uh josh go john josh go but george gomez will be there uh keith ellen will be hanging around there the spooky guys will be there carrie hardy's they're signing autographs go meet the guy I can't wait to meet my hero um and it's all going to happen like at a beach resort so we can all go outside and have like bonfires and drinks and play in the water too for a weekend in florida in the middle of it's it's storming snowing right now in wisconsin and so next week on the 7th of february pinball at the beach can't wait super looking forward to it It's going to be awesome. Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you for the support. We have another high-level supporter. Enzo Paganini. Enzo! He gets the long pole there, dude. Enzo, what a solid dude.
    30:06
    We got him scheduled to be on the show soon. Schedule permitting. Yeah. He will join us soon. Dear listener, if you think this show is weird, That's because I freeze and Don freezes. I don't know what's going on right now. Something is wrong. He just freezes, and I'm like, what is he saying? He just froze. So if we have some pause on this show, that's because something is wrong, man. It's the advanced tariff or something. It's a tariff in the underwater sea cable running our DSL line. We're going to have to go to shortwave radio pretty soon.
    30:45
    Oh, I just saw that. The boring company that Elon Musk has, he wants to make something under the ocean so we can take the train under the ocean in a tunnel from New York to London like two hours or something. That could be awesome. I could visit you every day. So the Hyperloop, I do like this concept. Enzo, shout out to you. So the idea with this is like an undersea tunnel, right, that's attached to the seabed. and then you're on an electric train, a high-speed train that's in a vacuum tunnel so there's no air resistance, and then if you're traveling 5,000 miles an hour, then you can make it in like 45 minutes or something. What could go wrong?
    31:29
    I don't want to use that the first three years, but after that, if everything is okay, then I could try it.
    31:38
    Oh, my God. That could be awesome. All right. So you're getting the Dungeons & Dragons LE, and you're getting one more game. What's that? Oh, Avatar CE. Nice. Dungeons & Dragons LE, and then Evil Dead is Here, which we'll talk about in a bit. So you just did some sort of trade. You gave two games, and how was that? I think altogether there was four involved. But I had myself a John Wick LE. I had myself an X-Men LE. Both games that I enjoy playing, both games that are aesthetically pleasing, Both games which I don't think are abject failures, though there is a long list of wants that we would like to see in both games. And so here was a situation, man. New pinball releases don't stop and don't slow down. And so I'm standing back looking at my collection, my X-Men, my John Wick, games that I've played 500 times now. I've gotten all the achievements I'm going to get. And I'm looking at D&D coming out. I'm looking at Avatar CE. I'm looking at Evil Dead. And I'm like, let me call up Jeff Ahmed Pinball, my distributor of choice. And I'm like, look, rather than go pin side and just list these and then have tire kickers, how about any interest in, you know, maybe I get you these. Maybe we do a deal on some of the new stuff coming out. And he said, bet. Now, it was not a straight trade. I had to put some cash on the table to sweeten the deal. But he did make it easy to get these games out. So my pimped out X-Men LE is now over at, oh, God, what's the name of the arcade? It's in the Ohio region. It's on location, earning some quarters, has that cool topper that I made for it. So that one's out there. And then I think the John Wickel Lee went into a private collection. So that's fine. He sold them already, so it was not a problem for him. Yeah, no, not a problem.
    33:20
    So Jeff at Mad Pinball, he took those two games, and he's giving you the LE version of Dungeons & Dragons. Yes. And one more game? Come on, man. Yeah, yeah. So it's going to be a Kong premium. Boom. Oh, yeah. Still a rumored title, no confirmations or anything. Nobody's leaked anything to us, but I'm on that list. If that's the next thing, then I'm going to use my store credit. And how can you not bet on the new Elwood, man? It's the Elwood. But, Donnie, why not the LE version of Elwood's game, man? Because LEs are problematic, man. The best thing about the LE is you get it first, and it's got Invisiglass. It's got Art Blades. It's got a shaker motor. You don't have to do all that stuff to it. You still have to finish the powder coat, in my opinion. I still have to throw a knocker in it. So it's not like it's completely fully loaded. You get the better speakers. You get the speaker lights that are already in there. So there is some benefit to doing that. But I haven't seen that benefit really translate to, oh, this game will sell in a minute for what I paid for it. You're still going to take a loss if you want to move that game quick. And so for me, I think there's better value in the premium. because while I have to do a little bit more work to it, I'm pretty good at it now, and so I can turn and burn on some powder-coated armor. And it lets me not just use the standard art blades that come with the LE, but I can look at the market. I can go to pin graphics. I can go to tilt graphics. I can go to custom pinball and get acrylic art blades instead, which are of much better quality and aesthetically pleasing. I can pick my own powder-coat color. I can go to cab custom and get custom-cut armor that, in the case of Jaws, it was better than the LE armor looked.
    35:00
    So I get to be more creative with a premium platform than I do with the LE where most of it's already done for me. And you have this company, Mods Pinball Customs, so pimp these games up like crazy. Sometimes they look better than the Stern LEs. I love that. I love when you do stuff like that. But can we just pause for a minute? You're talking about these LEs losing some value. We need to address this. Yes. every hobby, 99% of the hobby, you lose money. So this BS with don't buy new in-box games, they will lose money, come on, man, grow the F up. When you buy a car, you drive for two miles, it loses like 30% of its value. It is what it is. It's like you buy a watch, it loses value. You buy a pinball machine, you unbox, and you play 500 games, it loses value. This is how it is. I will say the value does hold up better than a lot of other hobbies you can be into. Have you ever had a boat? Oh, my God. Try to sell a boat, man. You're going to lose so much money. You're going to lose money just having a boat and parking the boat and moving the boat. Boats are super fun when you're on the lake. But I'm telling you, we've got nothing but lakes here in Wisconsin, some of the best in the country. And they have marinas. And I can just go down and rent a great boat and have fun for the day. and I'm saving so much money in hassle by doing that. If I physically lived on a lake, I think I'd get one. But other than that, yeah. But get your boat, man. Get your boat, sell it, get a new one. That's fine. But we're not losing the money like people lose on cars, lose on watches, lose on vehicles, lose on aircraft, lose on ex-wives. Come on, man.
    36:49
    It's just because I'm getting tired of this negativity. it's under 1% but it's there and it's just destroying our beloved hobby and I don't like it. There are some bright spots though let's look at Metallica LE the people were selling those for $16,000 right off the bat. I'm sure Kong LE is going to do well. Jaws LE is still holding money. The newer CEs from Jersey Jack are even doing pretty good. Elton CE is still you know it's not going MSRP but you know if I had Elton CE and I put a thousand plays on it and then I got 12.5 or 13 for it, I think that's fine. I think that's fine. I got to enjoy it for all this time.
    37:28
    You know, OpenAvatar does similar. A few years back at the COVID chaos, yeah, we couldn't get new games, and that's why some of the games was more expensive. And if we go 10 years back, yes, a brand new Elite did cost, what, $8,000 or something, and they only made $500, and it got up in value like 12 15 000 whatever but it's 2025 now wake up okay wake up stop with the crying if you cannot handle losing two three thousand then don't buy a pinball machine or simple or go buy something that just came out six months ago from somebody else and and take the win man i think it's still a great market for buyers of games um and even games that i've sold that have been at a loss um if i decide that i want to get it back i can get it back for basically what i sold it for you know absolutely and this is not directly to the normal collector this is aimed at pinball content creators that gives up these negative vibes it has nothing to do with the normal listener we love you guys but if you have a following if you have some people that are listening to you and you're spreading these hate negativity just choose another hobby that's that's how i feel go away i mean you know you know state your opinion but you know support it with some evidence why do you think that way maybe there's um an aspect to this i haven't considered like that's what i want to hear you know but you're just across the board like anybody that buys something new is stupid seems to be kind of a weird take you know absolutely man and i'm all right i so excited for these games that are coming out in the next couple weeks that i picking up so like that exuberance exuberance how much is that worth Donnie I was like I was like if we jump over to JJP avatar now I was, I was so excited because the collector's edition for us in Europe, it's an 18, $19,000 game when it's unboxed at our place, right? It's a lot of money. So it's okay for us to be overly excited and happy to, you know, unbox and get this amazing feeling when you use so much. For us, it's a lot of money. We're all different. Some people, it's nothing. But for us, it's a lot of money. So we're very excited.
    40:07
    Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I concur. Yeah, huge investment. And it makes the game rare and exciting. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I just want to ignore the negativity and I want to try it. I played the game before I recorded my YouTube video at Retro Jango. And I played the game and I was like so positively surprised. It's not as bad as people were telling me. It looked, I mean, the aesthetics, the cosmetics, how it looks, it's so beautiful. You cannot, on videos, on pictures, you can't do this. You have to experience it. Such a beautiful pin. And I hope you're excited for getting your collector's edition soon. I can't wait. I'm telling you. So beautiful. It's ridiculous what J.J.P. can make. So the game, for me, shots on layout, guys. It has got so amazing shots on layout. What was it, Mark, what?
    41:06
    Seiden? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's his first game, right? First, you know, official release game.
    41:13
    Wow, man. And this game is inspired by the Data East 1993, Tales from the Crypt, Ram Shots and all of that. It reminds me of the old game. And it just shoots so fun. So I got bashed when I just showed my enthusiasm and positivity. On top of that, I made the, you know, I showed the UV. The thing is, yeah, the thing is I just turned the game on. And I haven't checked that much about this game. I turned it on, and I filmed what I saw. Cool. But the day after, I got so many messages from so many people that sent me, you know, images of how it should look. And it doesn't look like that. And people were just so angry and said, oh, you're just chilling. You're just keeping information back. And when I saw those pictures, I saw what people meant. So I know what you guys mean now, but it is how it looks on the video, guys. I cannot change that.
    42:22
    The red colors on the armor is there, but I've seen on the promotion material pictures I've got, those, what are they called, IWA, something human. There's four people down at the flippers. Right. Yeah. On the promotion, they're blue and green, but all of that is not there in the real deal. It's not bad. Yeah, I haven't seen in person one of the production ones yet. Well, unless they were the same as what we saw at Expo, because that's kind of what my take was.
    42:53
    Did you play on a CE or on Expo? How did you experience this before you bought the game? Oh, I was at the factory, and they had four games set up for us to play, two LEs and two CEs. Now, the CE toppers were there. The play field were LE play fields in each of the four cabinets, though. They did have a prototype CE play field that they had in a separate room, and we went over it with a UV light, and they showed all the cool effects and everything. And it was quite impressive. But they did say, like, you know, please don't take pictures of this. It's not final approval yet. Things may change, you know. And I know they spent a lot of time trying to come up with the way to do these inks because they haven't been done to, like, this level before. and that's why there's two different companies behind the play field. That's why the CE, they found Bader they partnered with because they had a better time working with him locally to come up with the formula for the inks because it's not just the UV lighting and effect that they wanted from the color. They need to make sure that that UV paint will work with the clear coat and not react with it. So they spent a lot of time and PhD chemists coming up with what formulation will give them the effect but also it'll work with clear coat. It'll hold up on the play field. It won't bleach the wood and make it rot, you know, and all these other things. So there was a lot that was going into it. Not that they've really had a video that can take us through that whole process, right? So we're all kind of, you know, left to speculate. But I think that was – So what you're saying is you went to a separate room and you had some UV lights. Yes. Maybe those UV lights you used were more powerful than the ones that are mounted on the final game. Yeah, so that would be something interesting to get like a good UV flashlight torch to you folks and go through the play field and see how that changes between just like the UV LED strips or whatever that's on the actual game.
    44:50
    Yeah, I think they have like four or six UV lights that that lights up. They had the art blades there too, and what I saw from your video looks exactly like the art blades that I saw. Yeah, on the art blade, those red flames, they look – guys. my eyes are not the best, but the thing I'm seeing on the UV when it's dark and night mode, and it shows on that topper, it shows where the time goes, and you can see at the upper right, that topper is so good. I love it. It shows when it's night mode, and it looks beautiful. Oh, my God. So it feels like right around your flippers, those four guys they the uv isn't good there but at the middle of the game and all and and and under the play and at the on the play field and the sides and all the way back it looks magical i'm telling you so maybe we should do some sort of mod and have more powerful led lights around the flippers maybe to fix that when when the game comes out to everybody some mod maker will do something but right now do not just say this doesn't work perfect yeah and so here's the thing if i get my avatar ce and its value immediately drops to eight percent so beautiful so you got out there that was funny if um if the price does drop to eight thousand dollars or something um i'm going to take my game i'm going to keep it here and i'm going to play it until i get my money's worth out of it and then i'll go ahead and sell it this isn't a game that i would plan on only having for two or three months and then sell i don't think that's a good way to go about it. People have been reaching out to me like, Don, you hardly keep games. You're already getting rid of Metallica. It's like, well, that was already the plan. That was for a customer. It was a customer build. I try to keep my games for a moderate length of time, six months to a year. I think that's reasonable. But I know people that sell games after a week. They buy the game, they get it, they play it, and then it's out of there. And they want something else new. And all of that is okay. However you want to enjoy your pinball games. A CE from Jersey Jack is probably not the game that I would plan on only having for a week.
    47:03
    But, Donnie, we're all different. So I made a show with a guy called Jason. He has, on my YouTube channel, he has a show called Pinball Party. Yay! Yes. Great guy. Love Jason. So when we made a show together, he said that he had his jaws and he sold it like after a day. Yeah. Yeah, and he's a huge Metallica fan, and he bought Metallica, and he sold it after a day or two. Yeah, yeah. But he had some issues, yeah. I want all of you to go in and check out his show. It's a great, great show. But, again, we're all different. Nothing is wrong with having a game for a week and selling it. We're all different. No hate, no not. Some people have it for a long time, so it's all perfect. We're all different. And sometimes I just think it's a good idea to go out to a location and try a game maybe, right? And so this is the thing. Avatar is a good example. Now, I get accused of you just like everything. You buy everything. And that's probably because I do. But when Avatar was announced, I thought, ah, that's not a theme for me. Easy pass. I don't care about this game. Why are they going to Avatar? That's so stupid. And then I played it. I saw the whole package there. I saw it with the topper. And then the gameplay mechanic of the eclipse coming in and everything slowly turning into dark. I love that so much.
    48:33
    And I said, okay, I'm not interested in the limited edition version of this game. If I get this game, it's got to be the good one. And then I was just thinking, you know, where I had Big Lebowski for a long time. Loved that game and kind of played, got my enjoyment out of it, got it off to a friend. And I'm like, okay, I just got this cash for Lebowski. I've got the perfect spot by the bar. Avatar can be back there glowing and just be like a focal point of the room. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. That's why I'm getting it. And so this is a game I don't mind having for a year or two, have a JJP in the collection. Harry Potter is going to come out, so we'll probably end up with two anyway. But I'm excited for it. I think it will be good. But I was down on this game at the announcement and the trailer. I was like, ah, pass. I don't need it. And then, you know, I went down and played it, and I'm like, you know what? You know what? This is actually pretty sweet. so there we go the topper yeah it was fun you gotta have it you gotta have that i've played the le on locations now everywhere and it's fine i like how the game plays well enough but i just i need that extra polish i needed the extra bling i wanted the the extra the different play field i wanted the uv art um and i wanted that topper all of it under cabinet light the back cabinet light all of that i want it it's so beautiful it's so beautiful and and with jjp the see is the way to go. I'm just saying. I'll say Godfather, one of the most beautiful pinball machines I've seen recently. Love it. I love what they're doing with the toppers. You look at your JJPs, your recent ones you got lined up and it's like awesome topper, awesome topper, awesome topper with Elton, with Godfather, with Avatar. Godfather was just not a theme or gameplay experience that I really liked as well as the other ones and that's subjective. but avatar fixes that yeah i have a one thing negative about avatar bring it because this show is not just shield shield shield it's also negative so this game do you remember when it got announced wasn't it summer last year wasn't it summer yeah it was july yeah wow so long time ago okay back in july we got told that the um collector's edition would be november november yeah yeah and the thing is it got delayed because of this uv show i understand the thing is we just got the ce and don is waiting on his ce and in about a month we will get the next jjpk that seems a little soon yeah yeah that's a little it seems like and rumors are saying harry potter this feeling I'm getting in my stomach because of this. It feels the whole hype. The whole, yeah, I just got this new game. It just dies for me.
    51:27
    Yeah. One month from now, Avatar is gone and everybody's talking about Harry Potter. So, is it because... You have to be honest now. Wait, wait. Sorry, sorry, I caught you there. Have you been thinking, just for a second, just for a second. Let's say you're having, it's the 3rd today, 3rd of February, maybe you get your game the 15th. Have you been saying to yourself while eating breakfast, okay, in 15 days, 15 days after I get my avatar,
    52:03
    the much, much more anticipated, better hyped game, Harry Potter, from a great, great designer will come out. Has you been thinking about, is it possible to take the money, the deposit I gave, $2,500, and move it to the next game? Have you been thinking about that? Be honest now. Absolutely. So I even – now, yeah, I reached back out to Jeff, and I'm like – and I'm not going to jump out of my deposit or try to, like, leverage him into doing that. That's not what I meant. But I said, you know, he said he's got one Avatar CE left a few weeks ago. And I was like, look, if you get two people that are looking for him, I would consider, you know, moving my deposit to Harry Potter and let them have my spot. Let me know if that happens. But I'm just as happy, like, waiting to go down to JJP and grab this game, bring it home and play it and unbox it too. So I really, you know, if they called me today and said, Don, we've got a buyer for it. We'll move your money to Harry Potter. I'd be a little gutted because I really want to play this game at home and so it would only be because I think I could probably pick it up again a little bit later and I already have a bunch of new games coming honestly I think I'd be 50-50 I'd probably have to flip a coin to see because I'd be just as happy either way I could find some room in the budget for both so that's part of it too that's a luxury you have got there it's because the next game you know the excitement you have in your head what is it because for me avatar feels like last year's game it feels like an old game you know you know what i mean it's got to be that it probably obviously it's i don't know the numbers but it's probably not selling um you know they're probably caught up with production you know they've had some extra time to build the le's they're probably done with those um they finally got the ces on the line now how long is that going to take probably a couple of months until they're caught up reasonably well with the ces and then it could be time for another game release to keep the line moving or whatever um maybe it was decided that they really want to make texas pinball festival for harry potter and so that's why they maybe moved it up i would have kept it and i would have done it in the fall um but you know maybe they'll you know that would leave them with a huge gap of no games being built or something i don't know i talked about harry potter with my brother so he said he said i hope that they will make a standard version of this game also so we can put them out on all our locations that's the first thing and the second very interesting thing he said was actually jay what up jay and the second thing he said was i hope jjp has 500 of these games in boxes at release day in boxes ready to ship and i fully agree with him don't do it like this doing it like this we just got the ce it just we have do we have the same saying in the u.s you took the air out of the balloon yeah we say we say that all the time yeah i said it to a girl i was eating dinner with last night it's like you really took the air out of the balloon And I was like, oh, darn it. But, you know, waiting for this long time and a month before releasing the next game. And this is not just an ordinary game. This is a very highly anticipated game, right? This is Harry Potter. A lot of people love this game. And it's a game by Eric Minier. A lot of guys in this industry has Eric Minier as their favorite, favorite designer. So people are so anticipating about this game. So one month before we get this $18,500 game, it just makes me just a bit inflated, you know. I would love if instead, say, they finish the Avatar CEs in March and April, start building Harry Potters May, June, July, August, and then when we get to the Pinball Expo in October, do this big reveal. Here's the game. It's going to be at the Expo. You can play all versions of it. We've got the standard editions in boxes. We've got collector's editions in boxes. We've got premiums. We've got them ready to go right now, and we'll make them for the next year or two just to fill that void. We have 80 games in boxes in this show. Just buy them and just drive them home. That's how they should do it. But, Genghis, where are you going to get the money to build these games, though? Maybe that's what they're looking at. Maybe they're like, we need to start getting deposits in March so we can get these games made and out in the summer. That might be what it is. It just destroys everything. I know. It just destroys the hype. It destroys everything. And also, there's tariff on semiconductor products. So all the boards you're going to have into the U.S. are going to be 25% more expensive now. So will the games be 25% more expensive now? What's going on? What if this? What if that happens, and that's true, and all those printed circuit board components are going to have huge tariffs, but they decide to look down the street at Ametron, and they're like, you know what? Why don't we use these Ametron boards? They're being printed up two blocks away, no tariffs, and that's what saves American pinball is the Donald Trump tariffs.
    57:37
    I mean, I understand Donald Trump wants everything to be built in-house to make America more rich. I understand that part, but do it in a better way than this. Well, we need time to spool up. Yeah, we can't just snap our fingers and have supply chains completely redone. It's going to take time to build towards that. Yeah.
    57:57
    Exactly. And these small parts, they all come from China. They all come from China. Okay, maybe Ametron, they assemble everything in the U.S., but all the parts, man, all the components, they come from China. Yeah, I know that they do the printed circuit boards because I've seen the machines, but all those little transistors and whatever that's on there, that probably, okay, yeah, they're not making those. Exactly, exactly. Sorry, Ametron, I was trying to help you out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the only negativity I have with the J.J.P. avatar. I'm loving the game. It's so beautiful. It's fun to shoot. The light effect on the sides, what are they called? Hot rails. They are very well programmed and integrated. I really enjoyed it this time. It's just so much fun. I hate underplay fields most of the time. This one, the crap, it's timed. And you need to shoot it like three times or something. And then you will start multiple. I know, I know. But it didn take all day long It was fun So for me great game I liked it man And I sorry if you angry about that One guy wrote on my video he gets suspicious when you all positive
    59:19
    I mean, and I wrote to him, okay, then just be suspicious. What do you want me to say? Yeah, I mean, I could back out of my deposit, take the $2,000 loss and say, you know what, I'm done with this. I'll move my money to Potter. but it's not what I'm looking to do I'm wanting to get this game and play it I want my blue people game in the corner of my room and I want to sit back and look at the stinking topper and drink beers in a lawn chair in my downstairs beautiful we are not 100% shills I think is what you were going to say there this connection, this undersea cable sucks sure that Harry Potter will come out in one month it's only rumors yeah it's only rumors Oh, it's so good, man. On the CE, when you want to shoot the ball, you have this arrow handle you pull back. It's so cool. It's so well done. I don't know if you have seen that. Oh, I've got to play with it. You want to talk about this over here?
    60:18
    Yeah, we have to jump over to the next company. We have to talk about one of our Patreon supporters. Oh, that's right.
    60:28
    Engage shill mode now. All right, so this is what's consumed the last 72 hours of my life. I was planning on coming back from pinball at the beach and then picking up my early edition of Evil Dead and getting home, and that was the plan. And then Spooky beat expectations, and they called me, and they're like, hey, Don, just to let you know, Friday, Saturday this week, your game's ready if you want to come pick it up. And I said, let's go, buddy. I got off my 12-hour night shift. I jumped in the car. I went down to Benton, Wisconsin, and boom, back in the Spooky factory. It's like coming home, man. I love that place. Huge. And everybody, everybody, between all of this, I've been talking to Don. He was dead tired but so excited. Dead tired, no sleep, but so excited. Okay. You went there. What happened? Oh, man. So, I mean, the way the factory is set up is so streamlined now that they can go from just throw a play field down, populate it, goes to the next station, gets wired, goes to the next station, goes in a test rig. The whole play field is tested before that play field even goes into a cabinet The whole cabinet is separately tested And then they're married together And then going down the line They give games like two days for everybody to come by And just play, test them And find any issues there could be before it goes into a box So the QC has taken like such a huge level jump You know we were playing them on the line You know other famous people's games were there That we got to touch and play So that was cool I don't want to say who And then yeah, my game was already in a box for me I got that topper That topper in the box weighs 30 pounds It's crazy I was so excited Brought that game home and then I did a live unboxing On the YouTube channel for Don's Pinball Podcast That was super fun Shout out Make sure that you remove all the packing materials Before you turn your game on I just wanted to show everybody that was booting up okay But I still had masking tape on So they were yelling at me I didn't mess anything up It's all working And now I got to live stream the game yesterday, the actual gameplay. It's over in Spooky Corner now. And the game's awesome, man. The game's awesome. It looks. And, I mean, 30 minutes before we made the show, we were talking to each other. And Don, he showed me everything about this game. And another shout-out. I know we have given a lot of shout-outs today. But if he's listening, Christopher Frenchy, what you have done here is absolutely astonishing. I mean, it's 10 out of 10. All the details are in there. I mean, this guy must have watched both movies, and he took so many breadcrumbs out of the movies. I see details everywhere. It's so good. After that, I looked thorough of the topper, and I saw the test mode with the topper, and the light effect, everything. It looks amazing. And my first question about the topper was, Donnie, take down the audio. Let me hear those chains. When the head goes up and down, can you hear the chains saying bling, bling, these metallic sounds? And Don tells me those chains are made of plastic. but they look like metal. So the first mod you have to do on this game is put real metal so you can hear it clink clink The only thing with that and the motor is powerful enough to do it I'm just worried about over time those metal chains wearing on the other parts of the topper leaving marks and things. I just thought of that. But what I could do is take some chain links and just hang them somewhere so you still get that chain sound. yeah man yeah why not of course the motor has to be powerful enough you have to test that first but just listening to that it's just spooky to to listen to middle and this is spooky pitbull yeah let me tell you that that electric motor that powers that thing is a beast they went a couple of levels bigger than they needed to just so there was no chance that they were going to have a motor that was you know weak or losing power over time it's not a servo running that It's an electric stepper motor that is freaking beefy. Nice. I can tell you, man. I got some stories about it. So when we talked private, oh, stuff like this usually we share on Patreon, but let's just go open here. When we talk, we were talking about the topper that's included with the collector's edition of this game is actually both you and I really like that topper. It's not bad. Yeah, yeah. The one that's included for free, whatever. It's really cool. And you were doubting. You wasn't sure if you should buy this very creepy topper for like $1,300, $1,400. But you choose to buy it anyway. What did make the change in your opinion? What happened? Is it because you visited this factory and you saw it? What changed? You were – It was like, you know, seeing it, you know, watching them build a ton of these on the line. the extra kinetic energy that it brings, just like the dominance in the room. Like you walk in and she's right over there. I turned on the attract mode and just, you know, I'm sitting here and all of a sudden, like, you know, there's a zombie lady behind me, like going nuts. It's so impressive of a topper.
    65:52
    It's so heavy, too. Like it's a big thing. It's not just like, you know, some cheap plastic and some foam board or something. Like it's sculpted. It's officially licensed. Like you have to. I didn't go butter-cabineted on this. When I was at the factory, though, I did see some of their butter cabinet, direct print cabinet parts, and it looks so much better. It's incredible. But if I was going to pick one upgrade, I think this was the one to do. But, like, I wouldn't fault anybody for it. Pretty much everybody that's been ordering this game has got the butter cabinet. They've got the topper. They want the full thing. And for $10,000, I think I've said it, I think you're stealing this game from them with everything that's in it, man. Super exuberant about it. We also have customers that ordered this game, and we warned. We said, you know, tariff can be a real thing, and, you know, they don't care. So our orders was also with barter cabinet, with topper. It was just give everything. I just have a question about the topper. So you talked about attract mode. when the chopper goes into a track mode does it play music or does it make a spooky sound or call out is there something there yeah yeah so she'll actually talk and you know she runs through her little uh does a voice routine i've only had it i i had the game for like three days now and i've only had it on a track mode for like a day and i've been running back and forth to work so i haven't i haven't let it go adhered through like everything it does um but yeah there is motion and then you know her her freaky call out so in a track mode the the it goes up and down and she talks but no music oh no she'll talk yeah i don't think there's music okay can you then imagine having those chains as real metal chains and listening to that in a track mode oh man Spooky Yeah I'm coming up with some ideas now Of what I can do with this And I'm getting excited Yeah man I've been talking about toppers Again Ah This is Patreon talk Let's just open Let's just talk open today Okay Sure No Patreon extra Okay Donnie So Donnie just showed me A very cool topper He made for Stern Metallica Oh Yeah Very very impressive Do you have a web shop, you know, something like that so people can go in and see Don's Custom Toppers? Not currently. Part of that is because the workflow that's involved in creating these is substantial. And so, I mean, I don't even – if I got like 20 orders right away, I would have trouble trying to fill all those. So I don't have a web store or anything yet. But what I do have is people that are interested, people that are emailing me, and people that are getting stuff. so everybody that has got a Metallica remaster please send an email to Don this topper do you like it? I think he likes it Mikey likes it is Retro Jango approved? ok so much Metallica badass I hope you will you know make these and sell them man because people deserve this it's so beautiful I think the game deserved better than what was able to come out of Now, this isn't a dig at Stern. I'm sure they're able to come up with amazing concepts, but then they're limited because it's got to be licensed or approved. They've got to come in with a budget. There has to be enough of a margin for the distributor to make some money, for Stern to make some money, and for the band to get paid and make money. And so that's why we end up with Metallica and four flasher bulbs for $1,000. I decided to embellish it a bit more and create a whole mountain range with red lights and stuff and a music-synced Metallica light-up marquee, and then a couple of Desert Rose skulls with red lights in them. And full size also. Full size. Side to side, buddy. And, yes, it says the name of the band in the topper because this one has to eat it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I love it, man.
    69:56
    It looks amazing. I'm loving it. One more thing I want to talk to you about is actually Stern on Kenny X-Men. Oh, why? I'm just kidding. Don, he had his X-Men. he had both the pro and no not the pro the premium and the le it's old it's old and gone our dear friend of the show retro ralph he had it i don't remember which version but he yeah yeah and he's is traded to what was it like yeah it's gone it's gone yeah and some people online is dogging this game so one of our uh patreon supporters enzo ferrari and me and don yeah and though we were talking about this game enzo thinks that the x-men is an awesome game like awesome he doesn't get the negativity around this game and me personally oh my god best game of the year. I love shooting that game. For me, shots and layout, so important. Audio parts, so important. The only thing that's missing on that game is the code. Yes. And we all know Stern. What does Stern do in six months?
    71:18
    Code updates. They update the code like crazy and give this game, you know, a 10 plus, A plus boost. So we just want to say Please stop with the hate Stop with the negativity Just wait, this game shoots great And what was it This plunger thing just got fixed Right Donnie Yeah, the ones that played with the fix It's an awesome game Yeah A little bit of a rattle With the shots around the sentinel head I'm wondering why those Weren't just metal ramps and why they did the wire form trickiness, because I think that adds to it a little bit. But really, other than that, I loved shooting the game. I love everything that's in there. The danger room was fun and exciting. I was really having fun when this game was first announced. And what had happened, now, yeah, I sold my games. That was kind of always the plan with them, because these were custom-built. I was going to keep the LE for a little bit longer, but then other things came up, and so I made the decision.
    72:20
    But the game with the code right now reminds me a lot of Foo Fighters. Now, I put 500 to 600 plays through it, so I've played this game thoroughly right now, so I got my enjoyment out of it. But it plays like Foo Fighters, where each game I play is essentially the same. I hit the same two white shots, and then I start the mode, and then I go to the same modes first, and then I was like, okay, so I'm really not doing something different every time I play this. I can contrast that with Evil Dead or even Metallica, which I have more time with. every time I play those games I end up doing something different I'm not playing them all the same way each time as I'm playing maybe with Metallica I've hit a couple of the gravestone markers and it's like oh well that multi-ball is ready I think I'll favor playing that now and then I'll get to Sparky later otherwise other games I've hit Sparky three times in a row and it's like well let's do that now or I get lucky with Snake and every time I'm playing it the game is evolving a little bit differently Godzilla was great at this you start playing and you get a couple of tanks and you're like, I think I'm going to focus on that for this game. But when it comes to a game like Foo Fighters, which I loved, the layout was amazing, but the code was just very much hit two white shots, go to New Orleans. Hit two white shots, go to Chicago.
    73:34
    Okay, let's see if we can get to D.C. And so that's what I'm hoping the code evolves a little bit more to add some more random adventure-ness. So as you're playing, you make it a reason to pick Wolverine instead of Storm to start with or not just do Juggernaut every time because it's the easiest one. Give me some sort of perks. Yeah, diversify it a little bit more because right now it's a bit homogenous.
    74:01
    Yeah, so that's what I would like to see it evolve into. I like games where each game I play I'm kind of going on my own adventure and switching up what I'm focusing on depending on how it's playing out.
    74:12
    This game got co-designed by one of my favorite designers today, Jack Danger. I remember when this game got released, nobody was negative. Everybody was woohoo. Everybody was just hyped up. That release trailer of the X-Men was amazing. The only thing I was like, Jack Danger, he posted something and he was nervous. I understand he's nervous, but he was really nervous for this release. I remember he posted something. I saw something. He was really nervous. today i'm thinking back six months i'm like because he knew about the code was too early you know right what was that the reason why was this guy this nervous i i didn't understand it back then but but but today it's just a code that's missing everything else on this game is just awesome so just wait this game will get the james bond feeling this game will get the strained to things feeling. Give it six months. This summer X-Men will be awesome. This was the other reason why I was okay selling it and trading it when I did because right now code needs to cook for a little bit. I can play some of these new things and then down the road I can go ahead and pick it back up for essentially the trade-in value that I put out there. So, yeah, I'm okay. I'm alright. I have nothing against a guy like you that has got like 20 games. You buy the... Yeah. All right, our undersea cable is being chewed up by beavers or something. You buy these brand new games, and you buy this X600 times.
    75:53
    Hello? Are you there? Yeah, you're coming in and out here, buddy. Oh, I'm so sorry about that. Let me just say it again. I have nothing against a guy like you that has got a lot of new games. You buy the X-Men, and you have it for like some month, and you play 500, 600 games. and the next Stern Games comes out and you trade it in for that LE instead. That's okay. But the thing is, this game came out and very few days later, I saw an LE for sale for $9,500 and I was like, Woo!
    76:26
    Yeah. So just take it easy. That being said, I fully understand the collector's aspect of it. We want the 1.0 code at the release date. Of course, we all want that. I mean, that could be the best scenario, but we're just not there yet. I mean, they just need to hire more programmers at Stern. Hopefully, they're churning away at it, and they're not doing piecemeal updates either. So they may have an update, but they want to wait until it's more robust. I hope that's what's happening, not that they're transparent, we have any idea. But yeah, waste in, man. Hopefully, you're deep in work and putting the finishing touches on a boss code update that could drop. It might drop today for all we know Yeah We're all waiting But you know they just released the Dungeons and Dragons And that code is pretty good I like it I can't wait to see what that involves too And you'll hear all about that as soon as I get the game Which should be next week So Genghis, been over an hour here And we've covered so many damn topics I think we gotta get this episode out to the people But I think we did We did cut the Evil Dead content A little bit short So how about this Let's get this one out there And then let's hang out for a few minutes And I'll go through some more content Over for our Patreon folks A little bit about the playing experience Of Evil Dead What do you say?
    77:50
    Let's go buddy Let's have some fun on Patreon Again, thank you for all the support everybody Let's see the real supporters on Patreon Bye I think so, yeah And you can reach us, of course At wearepinball69 at gmail.com Check us out on Where else are we at? Facebook? We got the groups. We are pinball. We need to get on Discord and stuff. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's a whole worldwide event.
    78:15
    Tell you what. You can go ahead over to the Patreon now. We're going to hang out. I'm going to talk some Evil Dead. I got some stories about maybe one or two issues that have cropped up and how I fixed them and why you should not be worried about it. I really want to ask you about unboxing the game. Which issues were there? Because people are asking spooky issues. That's here. Perfect. Yeah. Let's go. I'm going to tell you right now. All right, guys. We'll see you in a bit. Yeah.