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The Pinball Show Ep 9: Ch Ch Changes At Deeproot, Quarantained Market Trends, & For F*ck's Sake Zach

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 29m·analyzed·Apr 13, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Deep Root's Mueller discusses manufacturing constraints, Space Cadet retheme, and Raza production while hosts debate theme's importance in pinball sales.

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discuss major personnel changes (Ken Cromwell moving to Jersey Jack Pinball), report on American Pinball's code updates, and extensively analyze an interview with Deep Root Pinball's Robert Mueller covering manufacturing challenges, the Space Cadet retheme, Raza production plans (500 units max, April 2020 shipping target), ramp geometry fixes, and a controversial statement that theme isn't essential to sales.

Key Claims

  • No pinball manufacturer can economically source all materials solely from the U.S.; Chinese parts are cheaper and higher quality than U.S. alternatives, though technically possible at 3-4x cost

    high confidence · Robert Mueller (Deep Root) interview via Chris Chandler correspondence segment; manufacturing/supply chain discussion

  • Deep Root attempted but abandoned 3D Space Cadet licensing due to legal complexity with EA and Microsoft; rethemed the game to an original, unlicensed theme

    high confidence · Robert Mueller interview; licensing discussion

  • Raza was scheduled to ship by end of April 2020 without COVID delays; two art packages available with four total variations (space/nebula vs. toxic amusement park theming)

    high confidence · Robert Mueller interview; production timeline and art package discussion

  • Robert Mueller would be upset if Raza exceeded 500 units; any overages would force difficult decisions about cutting orders

    high confidence · Mueller quoted directly in episode; production volume limits

  • Raza ramps were modified to reduce steepness; Steve Bowen subsequently revised rules to reflect easier ramp makes

    high confidence · Mueller interview discussing playfield geometry changes and Jeff Teolis scoring strategy feedback

  • Deep Root will never need to rerun a title due to uniqueness of their models and tier offerings; may rely on reskins instead

    medium confidence · Mueller quoted; hosts speculate this could mean same layouts with different themes (like Stern home editions)

  • American Pinball beat out Deep Root for Hot Wheels license; Mueller claims to have a harder-to-obtain John Norris design license lined up (possibly Fast and Furious or similar)

    medium confidence · Chris Chandler correspondence segment; Mueller interview speculation on future license

  • Ken Cromwell (formerly Flippin' Out Pinball co-host) has joined Jersey Jack Pinball in social media, PR, marketing, and customer relations role

Notable Quotes

  • “We will never need to rerun a title no matter how amazing it is.”

    Robert Mueller (Deep Root) @ ~24:40 — Major business philosophy statement; suggests Deep Root will use reskins/layout reuses rather than direct reruns, differentiating from Stern's model

  • “If you cannot make them [Raza ramps], Dennis Creasel, then you shouldn't even be playing pinball.”

    Robert Mueller (Deep Root) @ ~35:00 — Strong/controversial statement about game difficulty; hosts interpret as indicating overly easy gameplay

  • “Theme equal free sales. That's how I feel it is with the home collector.”

    Zach Minney @ ~31:30 — Host position on theme importance; directly contradicts Mueller's philosophy that theme isn't everything

  • “If you're going to make a training wheels game throw a damn license theme on it... Avengers, throw a license theme that everybody knows on it if you're going to make it easy.”

    Zach Minney @ ~37:45 — Combines concerns about Raza's perceived ease with theme importance; industry sales strategy critique

  • “It's like theme first, art second, gameplay maybe third, maybe.”

    Zach Minney @ ~29:30 — Explicit hierarchy of pinball machine sales drivers according to host; conflicts with Mueller's position

  • “There's nothing happening. I wonder what they're doing on Easter.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~08:00 — Episode context: recorded during COVID-19 quarantine; minimal industry activity during lockdown

  • “It's down to you and I. I feel like we're on an island or we're in a distant land.”

    Zach Minney @ ~02:30 — Personnel departure context; Ken Cromwell and Greg Bone have left The Pinball Show

Entities

Robert MuellerpersonKen CromwellpersonDeep Root PinballcompanyAmerican PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyRazagame3D Space Cadetgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root's claim of 500-unit production limit with potential cutoff could be interpreted as intentional FOMO/scarcity strategy rather than genuine capacity constraint; Zach notes suspicious word choice ('upset') that allows winning either outcome

    medium · Mueller: 'upset if they had to make more than 500 units'; hosts interpret as strategic positioning rather than honest capacity statement

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Robert Mueller's more humble/modest tone in recent interviews (post-criticism) is resonating positively within community; contrasts with previous arrogant messaging criticism

    medium · Chandler: 'we're seeing a more humble, modest side of Robert' and 'this is actually resonating very well within the community' per Pinside comments

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Fundamental disagreement between Deep Root (Robert Mueller: theme isn't everything) and hosts (theme = primary sales driver); hosts argue Raza is becoming 'training wheels' game too easy for target market

    high · Extensive debate at ~29-38 min mark; Mueller statement downplaying theme importance vs. Minney's 'Theme equal free sales' and ramp difficulty concerns

  • ?

    event_signal: Episode recorded during COVID-19 quarantine (Easter 2020 reference); manufacturing shutdowns, event cancellations, and widespread business disruption affecting pinball industry news cycle

    high · Episode context: 'Big Rona taking down economy'; manufacturing shutdowns discussed; TPF and Five Days events cancelled/postponed; minimal industry activity

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Deep Root abandoned 3D Space Cadet licensing attempt due to EA/Microsoft legal complexity; game being rethemed to original unlicensed theme with live-action animation planned for early 2021 reveal

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.270

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:20
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. hey all you cool cats and kittens out there welcome to the pinball show episode nine with myself zach minnie and my compadre my amigo dennis creasel how's it going dennis yeah that's right are you a cool cat and kitten apparently i am today or at least a a quasi cool pokemon It's so sad that you don't get the reference because you've not seen Tiger King yet. That's probably why I did a Pointless Pokemon reference instead of referencing the latest drivel coming out of Netflix. I tell you what, though. All of our listeners, they become accustomed to that, though. That's what makes you you, my friend. And speaking of making you you, it's just you and I now. Tim Cromwell has exited the building and entered into Elk Grove Village, Illinois for Jersey Jack Pinball. Fowler's out. Greg Bone, I don't know if Greg Bone was ever in, but he's out. It's just you and I, man. Can we hold down the fort here?
1:29
For today. Are you quitting? I haven't decided yet, Zach. Oh, don't. It seems like a great time. The quarantine month seems like a good time to leave. I can supplement your income.
1:45
Continue. No. That was my one highlight was that I was the one non-paid shill on the show. I'm the Medicare of podcasting now. Yeah.
1:56
Well, no, yeah, it's down to you and I. I feel like we're on an island or we're in a distant land. Are islands in the stream? Is that what we are, Zach? Oh, man. Islands in the stream. Are you Dolly or Penny? Well, I don't know today.

high confidence · Ken Rudberg Jersey Jack update; confirmed personnel move

Zach Minney
person
Dennis Creaselperson
Steve Bowenperson
Barry Ouslerperson
John Norrisperson
Jeff Teolisperson
Chris Chandlerperson
Pat Lawlorperson
Chris Calourisperson
Hot Wheelsgame
Dialed Ingame
Oktoberfestgame
Houdinigame

high · Mueller: 'threat of future suits associated with that, they said to hell with it'; Barry Ousler replicated layout geometry; original theme 'never been done in pinball'

  • $

    market_signal: American Pinball beat Deep Root in competitive licensing bid for Hot Wheels; Mueller hints at future John Norris design license claimed to be 'harder to get than Harry Potter' (speculation on Fast & Furious or Days of Thunder)

    medium · Chandler correspondence: 'American Pinball beat out Deep Root for Hot Wheels'; Mueller quote on upcoming license difficulty; hosts speculate Talladega Nights, Days of Thunder

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ken Cromwell transition from Flippin' Out Pinball to Jersey Jack Pinball as social media/PR/marketing/customer relations role; described as enabling him to focus passion for pinball in industry role

    high · Ken Rudberg JJP update: 'working with social media, public relations, marketing, customer relations'; Zach notes loss of crew members impacts show

  • ?

    product_strategy: Raza ramp geometry modified downward from original design due to playfield testing feedback (Oklahoma #1 player failed 12 consecutive ramp attempts); Steve Bowen revised rules accordingly

    high · Mueller interview discussion of ramp steepness reduction and Bowen rule adjustments; acknowledged as balancing design intent with playability

  • ?

    product_concern: Concern that Raza gameplay may be overly simplified after ramp geometry downgrades; Mueller's 'shouldn't even be playing pinball' comment about ramp difficulty interpreted as indicating training-wheels difficulty level

    medium · Hosts interpret Mueller's strong statement as indicating game is now too easy; Minney: 'training wheels game'; desire for licensed theme if game is simplified

  • ?

    product_strategy: Deep Root planned 'Five Days of Deep Root' event prior to TPF (Texas Pinball Festival) to reveal Raza pricing, shipping, ordering, and limited availability; COVID-19 cancelled event; original April 2020 shipping target

    high · Mueller: 'without this whole COVID thing, Raza would have shipped at end of April 2020'; Five Days event planned to announce details

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Robert Mueller explicitly states Chinese manufacturing and parts sourcing is economically necessary; U.S. sourcing would cost 3-4x more and produce inferior components; directly impacts all manufacturers' production timelines

    high · Mueller: 'no way a manufacturer can source all materials for pinball machines solely from the U.S.'; acknowledged technical possibility but economically infeasible

  • ?

    technology_signal: Deep Root's planned Space Cadet retheme will feature live-action animation (motion capture/avatar technology) as first pinball application; early 2021 reveal planned

    medium · Mueller: 'first pinball machine with live action animation'; hosts speculate on technology (Andy Circus reference); reveal planned 'early 2021'

    • 2:15
    I always felt like our relationship, Creasel, is very much akin to a partnership on television that you're very accustomed to. Because I had to hear about the Ewoks or the Muffins or whatever the hell that you brought up the furry things on Star Trek. But you were very much the Mr. Spock to my Captain Kirk. Don't you think that's fair? I don't think you know what that reference means. I think I do. I think that you and I at some point are going to have an epic AMOC battle with the music and everything. And we're going to see who ends up getting off this planet. And then I will repeatedly try and leave the show because I don't like working with you. And then in exchange to coming back, I'll get to direct my own episode, which will be awesome and have whales in it. And then you will direct your own episode and it will be a turn.
    3:09
    Who'd be con? Come! Well, I don't know. We need a recurring villain who can really chew the scenery.
    3:19
    That feels like a Ryan Seay. Do guys even have Kegel muscles, or is that just girls? Or a Bruce Nightingale. Oh, actually, you know what? Bruce, and I hear, I don't know if you've heard the latest... I have. podcast but he can now come back on i know you tried to have him on and then he had to cancel on you yeah to make you look bad so i was very approving of that maneuver but now apparently he's now got the bruce maneuver ready it's kind of like the picard maneuver and bruce maneuver he can he can maneuver himself back onto the show because apparently while the quarantine is going on he's not able to operate the bar so that was his excuse last time my understanding is owning a bar is a time-consuming excuse for a lot of things so is running a pinball network but yeah but we've lost like a third of the network at least on the podcast side so it should be easier it should be easier what are you doing uh yesterday was easter i'm going to ask you as we're recording sunday what you did yesterday which in return is telling the future as to what you were doing this evening right nothing in all scenarios is nothing i was already i already went out uh and hid the eggs you know my wife she can't just half-ass anything man she rubbed off on me because she had i'm i'm not joking people for our four children she had i think 1 000 plastic eggs all filled with prizes yeah speechless right now do you mark the locations down i do not so the lawnmower will catch it at some point okay because we apparent when we were growing up of course i have no memory of this but apparently at least with hiding the hard boiled eggs they started noting where they were because one year we missed one and so like a week later there was a a Crumptious odor.
    5:19
    Because we generally did the Easter egg hunts inside, in case the weather was bad. Yeah, we did the old hard-boiled eggs as well. None of these new kids, they get all kinds of trinkets and shit. Yeah, the lawnmower, I catch it, and I'll have flying starbursts and cheap Chinese toy tchotchkes flying everywhere. Now, do you make your oldest son do the lawn mowing after he has to do all those movie reports for you? That's so sad. No, he doesn't. We pay a kid to do it. But he did do his job. You have like 12 kids and you're paying someone else to do the lawn? Yeah. I thought the point of having kids was to make them do chores. The cost of a zero turn is going to be about two years worth of just a kid doing it himself. You don't need a zero turn, though. Just go to Home Depot, get one of those Briggs and Meyer push mowers that is like $100. Yeah, that's what I use. You're going to offend me with your push mowing now. I push mow, and I don't run out to some kid. I do it myself, and I hate every minute of it, and I do it anyway. Do you really? Do I hate it, or do I do it? No, what do you wear when you mow the lawn? Clothes, usually. I'd love to see this. Because there are neighbors.
    6:33
    Do you wear shorts that are about two inches a bit short? I see a cut off jeans. Unless it's really hot, I prefer to wear jeans in case debris flies. I've had a few. Are you the mask guy that wears a mask when he weaves a lawnmower? No, I don't. I don't wear a mask because I don't have severe allergies to grass or anything. But I have had a stick or two get hit and bounce weird out of the mower. And I actually had one once I had to stop and pull it out of it. It actually got stuck in my calf.
    7:06
    Builds character. Yeah. It's just another scar on a body covered in that. What about, do you ever wear sleeveless shirts? No, I do not own a single sleeveless shirt. Damn it. That would be good. Bandana? Nope. Don't own any of those either. Well, shit. There goes my stereotypical image that I had of you. Yep. Oh, well. So that's Easter for you, huh? Yeah. Maybe I'll go outside. I don't know. It looks like it's going to rain, so probably not. Now, we still do have a group full of correspondents. What's there for them to report on? There's nothing happening. I wonder what they're doing on Easter. They're probably trying to get their last-minute correspondence segments turned in on time. I think Ken was kind of a stickler about due dates. There is no Ken anymore, only Zool. It's time for TPN Industry News. Hey, this is Kaz with a quick American Pinball update. I've reached out to Michael Grant and programmer Joe Schober, and while manufacturing is currently shut down, the team is working on code. Oktoberfest has a new code update coming soon, and Houdini has a beta test code out right now. Josh Kugler has opened that up for anyone who wants to try it out, so just reach out to him. You do not have to be on the beta test list. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kosser.
    8:56
    out what his new role entails. He'll be working with social media, public relations, marketing, customer relations, and more. Ken's excited that he's going to be able to focus his passion for pinball within the pinball industry. All kidding aside, let's hope that our tight ties with Ken get us a scoop on the next title and when it's going to be announced. Ken's experience with podcasting, streaming, and his close ties with the pinball community are sure to be a great asset for Jersey Jack going forward. From everybody at the Pinball Show, we're expecting great things from you, and good luck, Ken. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update.
    9:38
    With Big Rona taking down the economy worldwide, Chris Calouris took advantage of some downtime to snag an interview with Deep Root head honcho Robert Mueller. I won't give you a play-by-play of the interview, but here are some things that stood out to me. We heard more evidence that we won't get that Ferrari pin at a Kia price we heard about before.
    9:58
    Robert mentioned the 4-6k range, which is where Stern Pros and even API's Hot Wheels live, as quote-unquote bargain basement pricing. This further reinforces the line that we've heard from Robert as of late, that value is not about the bottom line price, but rather about the total package. Speaking of Hot Wheels, apparently American Pinball beat out Deep Root for the Hot Wheels license. However, Robert claims to have a license on deck for that John Norris design that is, quote, harder to get than Harry Potter.
    10:32
    So, I'm thinking Fast and the Furious? Days of Thunder? Oh, I know, I know, Talladega Nights! Maybe our Craig, Ricky, Bobby can do some call-outs. For the right price, of course. But the biggest takeaway is that we're seeing a more humble, modest side of Robert. Judging by the comments on Pinside and elsewhere, this is actually resonating very well within the community. Deep Root hopes to get started in earnest in May, but like all of us waiting to get back to normal, they'll have to reassess as they approach that date. With your Deep Root update for the Pinball Show, this is Chris Chandler.
    11:14
    Always great hearing from the correspondents. A little shout out to Cromwell there. okay this week we do not have a lot of news but we do have one top story top story this week deep roots robert muller the principal wasn't he the principal uh yes uh probably amongst multiple titles but that's the one i've i've seen listed before operator ceo i don't know robert muller from deep root was interviewed on a rather popular pinball podcast a lot of information came out on this podcast episode. So we're going to sift through some of it. You heard Mr. Chandler discuss a little bit of it in the correspondence segment, but let's push on a little bit further. I've only heard the correspondence segment, so I guess steer this as you need it steered. Oh, that's fair. Okay, so you haven't heard the interview. I'm going to give you some cliff notes here. I do love notes that are cliffy in nature, much like my protectors. No Mylar? Mylar notes? I prefer cliffies. You mantis hater, you. I've actually never had mantis, so I can't criticize or promote. You should know that once one gets a little wear on the scoop, the other mantis protector eats it after mating.
    12:29
    That's really clever. I was like, where are you going with this? I was trying to pull something together there. That's bad. So Robert Mueller did say during the interview that there is no way that a manufacturer can source all materials for pinball machines solely from the U.S. He was discussing the delays because of the COVID virus hitting the United States and the world and a lot of parts coming from China and these manufacturers being reliant upon these parts from China. And he's basically saying that there's no way that a pinball machine can be made in the U.S. He did go on to say, well, sure it could, but it costs like three to four times as much, and the parts aren't as good, etc., etc. Does that surprise you that he's saying that no way a manufacturer can source all the materials for their pinball machines solely from the United States? Well, at least with the caveat that he gave, that technically he's being very bold with the statement and then acknowledged it sounds like that. You could, but it's not economically feasible. You'd have to raise the price of the machine. I know a lot of solid state work, circuit board printing and such does come out of China. I've always assumed that every pinball manufacturer relied on China for at least a portion of the parts. So, yeah, it sounds consistent. Well, we know that American Pinball has that parent company, Antron, that creates those PCB boards, I thought. Mr. Mueller talked about CPU boards that are, he said, set up as SMT line there at Deep Root. You can get some from the United States. these CPU boards, but he did say that they're extremely costly, especially for low-volume runs, and they're actually more faulty than the Chinese counterparts. Do you know if – I don't know a lot about Ametron. Do you know if they actually print the printed circuit boards themselves? I don't know. Just, again, as a case in point, as I mentioned before, that on pinball projects, my dad, who's a retired electrical engineer, he likes to work on the electronic side of things. He actually orders printed circuit boards from China, and then he puts the components on them. I bet that's what it is. And so I wonder maybe that's what Ametron does because at least when discussing like coming up with solutions on certain like soundboard things and stuff, my dad will sometimes design his own. And he's like, it's so cheap to just order the boards from China, even though I have to get 25 of them. It's like I'll just buy them in bulk, and then I can put them together and sell what I don't need on eBay or give them away or whatnot. not yeah that makes sense see your dad uh i got one of his nv roms oh yeah that's right uh-huh i won what i win a contest on egp i think he's actually designed a few pinball board solutions uh beyond ram but oh he's not mr car or car is he no no no he does not want to like open up a shop he has no interest in opening up a shop and so i think some of his stuff might be over with uh big daddy enterprises though ah i see i want to meet big daddy creasel yeah we'll get right on that deep roots robert muller said he planned on bringing 15 games to tpf those being a mixture between raza and other titles hmm that's a lot of games that is a lot So it doesn't sound like he said 15 different titles, but just 15 machines, but more than just Raza. Interesting. The Raza was going to be the production Raza, as well as some other titles. Now, it somewhat contradicts his plans moving forward. He also talked about working with, he said Jeff, I'm assuming, this week in Pinball Jeff, and having fun with the TPF rundown, giving a clue of an upcoming title. He then transitioned into discussing 3D Space Cadet. Do you know anything about Microsoft's 3D Space Cadet? I have no memory of ever playing it, but I do know a number of people have very fond memories of it. And for some, it was their first introduction to pinball. Yeah, so it was a big one. They were going to try to recreate that. Robert Mueller said the licensing was attempted to be obtained by Deep Root, but it was a mess with EA and Microsoft to get those. And he said the threat of future suits associated with that, they said to hell with it. They rethemed the game, and he said the physics and geometry, very daunting in a physical form. Because I think it was like a pretty super wide body on the computer platform. But he did indicate that Barry Ousler was able to replicate the overall field design, geometry, and existence of that 3D space cadet layout. The theme that they're going for now sounds very original, and he said it's never been done in pinball. in addition on this game they license their own music and it's going to be the first pinball machine with live action animation likely to be revealed in wait for it early 2021 what is a live action animation i don't know what that means so i think that's where they avatar it up they marvel comic universe it up they put the dots on people and those people yeah so i think that's what the the first time that's been done for a pinball machine i wonder if they got andy circus yes this is my princess space cadet yes is he not the best damn it that guy's good he is very good what do you think about them creating a 3d space cadet but retheming it to an original theme that hasn't been done before in pinball i think it i don't know i in terms of i don't know if the new theme is interesting to people you know i think theme is a major driver on on initial interest we discussed that repeatedly if a lot of people know that it plays a lot like space cadet that's not the same attractive well but it's again yeah it won't be the same and until people get their hands on it how do they know that it's like space cadet if it doesn't look like space cadets theme or anything i just i think that nobody really gives a shit about 3D Space Cadet as a theme, but it has become licensed because it was the first thing that people played in a lot of situations. Yeah, because I think there was a version of Windows, and it just came with... It was like Minesweeper. It came with this game. So, yeah, I think a lot of the draw... If you couldn't do 3D Space Cadet, I would question the value of even doing anything related to the layout. Exactly. That's where I'm thinking. But again, I don't have a memory of playing it, so I can't tell you if it had a really cool layout or not i just i don't know i don't remember people people for some reason robert muller's in this bunch they just they are unwilling to see the need for licensed themings to me dennis whirlwind as a theme doesn't sell in 2020 earthshaker doesn't sell in 2020 whitewater doesn't sell in 2020 it sells now really well because it's it's it is a theme now because it It worked in the past when licensed themes weren't there. So it has become its own theme. What am I missing? What is he missing? Well, we're going to hear him later on say that he is not convinced and he does not agree with the notion that theme is everything. He's wrong. Okay. Well, in terms of that, no, I would have to disagree with Robert's take. at least that well i could agree that theme isn't everything but i think we've repeatedly seen that when it comes to initial interest in sales that theme is really really important and i think we see that with heist which well it has had an incredibly positive response from those that have actually seen or experienced the gameplay great point the number of units that are going to move, I think it's... That's why it was so important for Jerry to get that game at TPF, so people could experience it. It's the same thing we saw with Total Nuclear Annihilation. That theme would never have moved units. People had already gotten to play it. That's what made it exciting. And then you take the flip side of it, Rick and Morty, before you even saw a full playfield shot, and they're sold out.
    20:48
    That's the power of theme. So, it's not that theme is everything, because My collection is built around games I enjoy playing, not games that I like the theme about. But when it comes to the initial sale, nothing is more important than theme to get those dollars in the coffer. I don't see anything else that ever has had a place. It's like theme first, art second, gameplay maybe third, maybe. That's rough. And I agree with you.
    21:17
    Theme is everything is a bit of a stretch. Look, even the best themes out there, if it's an unwanted game or a game people don't like, of course it's not going to sell as well. But it is one of the most predominant aspects of selling a pinball machine to me. It's like, I mean, my math equation, though, it's not exact because obviously you have to pay to get themes. But theme equal free sales. That's how I feel it is with the home collector. There's so many people. I mean, look at some of these other podcasts that I've listened to, like Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. One of the hosts, and I'm afraid I forget which one, is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle fanatic, but it's a take-my-money-now situation. They don't know anything about that game other than that it's Toitals, and they love Toitals. Yeah, I think that's Roop. There it is.
    22:10
    He also talked about Raza receiving, this is confusing, two art packages. So you have a choice. But each one of them has another variation. So four art packages. I believe so He said one is more based on space and nebula theming The other one is more like blasts of green more of your toxic amusement park type of vibe Sign me up for the nebula one, please. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Like I, for a while at least, well, actually, if I go down and were to look at my current game selection, I do have kind of a space theme going. So I'd probably lean towards nebulas and space too. So I could see the value in doing something like that. And if someone else had like Osler's Amusement Park Collection and was getting a Raza, they might want the amusement park one so it kind of fit thematically. I think that makes sense. Again, we just mentioned about art and how important it is too. I never even thought of that. Good point.
    23:09
    Remember the ramps, how that one whirly ramp just wasn't working like it does in Toten or Circus Voltaire and everybody was shitting on it? At least on one of the prototypes, people were having a great deal of difficulty. So kind of you on one of the prototypes. Well, I had read reports that one of the other prototypes, the success rate was significantly higher than on the other. The ramp wasn't working. Well, no, my take was the ramp was too steep. I think based off of the high-quality players that experienced it and reported back, I think it was fair to say it was too steep. It's frustrating because Papaduke's known for those weird ramps that because of, was it centrifugal force? Like on Toten, that is a long ramp because of all the winding and stuff. But because of the angles and the banks used to continue speed, it makes it up there just fine. He almost tried to do that with this one, but the geometry wasn't there, and it created too much friction. It didn't work. And Toten has, like, there are spots for the ramp to, like, if it doesn't get all the way up there for the ball, re-divert or dump off. But that rarely happens. I understood what he was going for wasn't a bad idea. it's been done he's done it before so and i want him to do it that's what i look forward to with papaduke games but when people are like yeah but out of 12 direct hits and we still didn't have it actually go all the way around obviously that's that's a problem too in my view because it's like you should be able to fully experience the ramp it's like the telekinesis multiball lock on stranger things that's frustrating i still don't have mine tuned in all the way where the magnets the arm diverter comes out and the magnet is supposed to catch it. It is frustrating. He said that the two ramps on Raza had been modified to reduce the steepness. As a result, Steve Bowden had to go back in and modify some of the rules to reflect the change because the ramps are very easy to make now. Remember Bowden did rules where if it does come back down and goes out the slot, it hits the multipliers or something. It jumps into the pop area, I think, where the multipliers. because I think Jeff Teolis was very complimentary to being able to exploit that as a scoring strategy. So Robert went on to talk about how easy these ramps are to make. He said they're so easy that if you cannot make them, Dennis Creasel, then you shouldn't even be playing pinball. Wow. Strong take. Is this game too easy then? Because aside from those ramps, I mean, this is where, and you don't want to end up talking out of both sides of your mouth, But this is just me as a pinball enthusiast. I believe that a pinball machine should have a series of both easy and difficult shots to make. And while I felt that the right ramp was – I didn't have a problem with what I saw on the left ramp. I know some people didn't think it was fun, but like geometrically, I thought it was okay.
    25:58
    I just felt that – How in the – geometrically did you think it was okay? It was a metal lift ramp that just went to nothing. It went to a target. That's what they wanted it to be. It's fine.
    26:10
    If you don't think that sort of shot is fun, there are people that don't like to shoot very targets either. It's not for everyone. I'm not going to criticize that. I was criticizing like when you have the number one player from Oklahoma go and take 12 direct shots on the right ramp and never got it all the way around on any of them, that that meant that shot did need some adjustment. But I don't know if going in the opposite direction and making it baby's first pinball machine is the right solution. well that's what it sounds like from what you've described is if i'm supposed to feel like an idiot if i can't make it on it's pretty strong that's pretty strong statement that's fine i i don't i don't mind the statement i'm just saying but all the other shots on the game i thought were easy as well so it's now it sounds to me like this is a training wheels game yeah and i worry about that because if you're going to make a training wheels game throw a damn license theme on it But, right? Avengers, throw a license theme that everybody knows on it if you're going to make it easy. Well, I guess it depends on how many of these you want to sell. He said during that five days of Deeper that was planned prior to TPF, we would have learned the pricing of Raza, the shipping, the ordering information, the limited time of availability. He even said without this whole COVID thing hitting, Raza would have shipped at the end of April 2020. Okay. That's within the time frame, the revised time frame they had provided last year, so that makes sense to me. Okay. So he has all his parts. I mean, that's what I'm assuming. If he doesn't have all his parts, then there's no way that that could have been shipping by April 2020. You almost would have had to have had the parts prior to February to get these things going, in my opinion. I don't know. Well, I mean, I think in an ideal world you would have already. But again, they just said shipping by end of April. That doesn't mean they're all built. So even if it's just, you know, kind of like how I remember listening about Hot Wheels and just how quickly they were able to turn around and get those versions down for that show. That's true. So in that regard, I could definitely see them actually still picking up the parts in March, for example, or maybe early April for production models. You asked how many they were going to make or wanting to make. Mr. Mueller said he was going to be upset if they had to make more than 500 units of Rasa. He said making more would tie them down, but they will if they need to. He said if so, then they're going to have to make a very difficult decision to where they have to cut the orders off. Now, do you think that that is true, or do you think that's just a way for him to win either side of an argument?
    28:50
    Setting yourself up to win, basically. Oh, well, I told you we wouldn't sell 500 or if we do, you know, the way you described it was very interesting because you indicated he said that he would be upset if he had to make more than 500. That's a that's a very interesting word choice. Just be upset about having a game be popular. Yeah. And that's why I don't I don't know what that I don't I don't understand the statement. He also said regarding the upcoming Deep Root titles, quote, we will never need to rerun a title no matter how amazing it is. He was describing the uniqueness of their models and their level offerings, but he didn't want to give away too much.
    29:33
    Now, that's very different than what I think a lot of people felt. the thing that Stern learned first, I'll give them credit for being the first at this, was the old ways, the ways of Bally, Williams, Gottlieb of you never revisit a game once it's off the line. Those companies made very few exceptions like gold versions of Adam's Family and such. That was a mistake and what Stern realized was continuing to run games, run multiple games, that I can go and still, if I want to buy a brand new Black Knight Sword of Rage, I have the ability to do that they didn't just move on and abandon it that that has resulted in more sales so that and vaults and everything yes so given this that they will never need to get the way you described it about the uniqueness of the models and the levels is i'm wondering if that when it comes to falling in love with a layout and maybe even a rule set if this means that the they'll rely more on reskins and that you'll be able to get the same kind of like the home editions oh i see and that we'll get multiple tile or shrek and family guy you'll get multiple titles that are you know if you really wanted that walking dead layout you know we might not run walking dead again but uh fast and the furious is going to have the same layout so yeah i mean that would be unique yeah because no one else is uh is again outside of the with stern kind of home specialty con you know that the thing they're doing with just their contractors where it's like Hey, do you want to have the Woe Nelly layout or do you want to have the Spiderman home layout? Those are your two choices. Well, we thought – remember people speculated about Jersey Jack Pinball potentially doing that for Dialed In, a machine that was a non-licensed original theme that people love the rules and the layout on but weren't so hot on the theme. I still think that's a good idea for Jersey Jack Pinball to do. I do as well because I think it's their strongest layout that they've released.
    31:33
    I can't argue it. Wonka's good. I think you could. I mean, you might agree, but I think you could argue it. It's just, of all the layouts, and I've played all of their games, it's my favorite layout. I prefer Wonka's layout. And no poo-pooing on Pirates of the Caribbean, which I think may be the best wide-body layout ever made. Well, that would be my order from Jersey Jack, would be dialed in Wonka Pirates in terms of layout. That's my order, but that's just my opinion. He talked about sales and they're going to be predominantly direct orders domestically. Now, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That perked up my old distributor ears. Predominantly direct orders domestically and then a distribution model globally or overseas, especially initially. He said that they have spoken with several distributors for domestic sales in the future, but interested in fewer larger distributors rather than a plethora of large and small distributors. He used the example of he wouldn't be surprised if 20% of distributors are selling 80% of a product. Does he mean like the way the current market works? Yes. Where is flipping out pinball in the percents, Zach? Why don't you open those books up and let me take a look? You know what? I would say that I'm in that 20%. How about that? Well, I guess congratulations on things going so well. I can tell you right now that I wasn't contacted by Deep Root, so maybe not in that 20%. Well, I mean, Spooky kind of does the way this approach sounds to me, where for a while, I think you had Pinball Star domestically for a long while as maybe their only U.S. distributor, besides the direct i mean when i bought tna i bought direct yeah now they have i believe four domestic dealers and then there's kind of some sub dealers and stuff um but yeah and you can buy direct i i just i still like i said last episode shit or get off the pot like i don't like this model i'm not i'm trying not to be biased as a distributor actually it would hurt me as a distributor if i'm telling people to get off the pot but if you're gonna do sales with distributors, then allow distributors to sell your games. Don't initially take all the orders and then leave the scraps. That's a slap in the face. Does that make sense? I get it. Like the multi-morphic. I've wondered how it worked with multi-morphic or even spooky. I've wondered how profitable is it for distributors to really partner with them when so many of the games are sold direct. I don't harp on JJP because they sell direct as well. I forgot that. I forgot that they did. I don't get on to JJP or Spooky as much because what they do is they do find a nice balance. And a lot of times they credit the dealers more so than themselves directly where the first games might go to the dealers. I know Jersey Jack does that. That's an interesting incentive, yeah. Yeah, if you buy direct from Jersey Jack, you have to wait a little bit upon the release. I knew some people reported when people were giving those Rick and Morty numbers and what their order numbers were, some people got, even though they weren't the fastest on the draw, They went through to the distributors first rather than trying to buy from Spooky, and they got pretty good numbers for doing that. Yeah, and nobody knew. Nobody knew, even as dealers. We've sold some Rick and Morty. We didn't know what numbers we were going to get. Oh, you are a distributor for Spooky. I wasn't sure. I'm not a distributor for Spooky officially, but I get my customers the games they want. That's what my official statement's been. That statement's confusing, and I want you to clarify it. Well, it is confusing for a reason. Ask Charlie. Charlie, you're probably not listening, but if someday you listen, I need clarification. Just email me and I'll read it. Here's what was confusing to me. 15 games coming to TPF, a mixture of Raws and all the other titles. We've got all these titles, 19 different titles. But then he says later in the interview, now, when they launch Deep Root Pinball, only Raza will be available.
    35:51
    Huh? Well, now. No world? The way it sounded earlier, the only one that it sounded to me like they were prepped to ship by end of April was Raza. So I assumed all these other ones were just going to be prototypes, kind of like how several months ago the Raza prototype was showed off. Remember all that we've been hearing over the last two to three years? I don't know if I remember anything anymore, Zach. Five titles at announcement. You're going to have more pinball machines. He said that before this COVID-19, Deep Root was capable of launching nine to ten titles a year. But now all the manufacturers are going to be tiptoeing back to see if the unrealistic sales, he called them unrealistic sales that everybody's been getting over the last couple of years, if they're there or not. So they were capable prior to this, two months, two months, Dennis. They were capable of launching nine to ten titles a year, but whoa, whoa, whoa. Now, maybe just Raza at launch and 3D Space Cadet retheming early 2021. I know that there's going to be some in between, but it just seems very convenient and a big old 180.
    37:05
    Maybe I'm reading into it too much. No, I think it's a fair question, but it's also – I think it's fair that you wouldn't want, if you were with Deep Root or a fan of Deep Root, you wouldn't want Robert to overcommit and kind of pretend like the landscape has not perhaps dramatically even shifted because of COVID-19. We've really, I mean, the reopening of the economy and the ability for manufacturing lines to get started back up and the willingness of consumers to spend on luxury toys, I don't think it's going to be as robust as it was. I think this is going to be a slump year. So because of that, they may have decided that they need to get a lot more conservative. Do you think they can afford to only announce one machine this year?
    37:50
    They're paying a lot of people. Outside of Stern, apparently, that's what everyone else does, is announce one game a year if you're lucky.
    37:58
    But they announce things like Rick and Morty or Willy Wonka, not Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland. That's a fair point. But, again, it sounded like there might still be another announcement. You know, Raza was announced last year, so we don't know what the next game that would be announced before the rethemed Space Cadet this year would be. so something tells me we're going to see a lot of original themes come out of deep root pinball well if you're producing a lot of titles uh i think that that can make a lot a lot of sense with regard to code development on raza robert muller did say to him code completion is very nebulous he don't know what that means he said that their codes updates are not going to be anything like a 0.94 no indication of how far along in this uh they are he did say that uh Two modes were coded by late March on Raza. Two modes were fully coded. He said now Bowden's working on, and the team, the coding team, is working on about six to eight modes total. It's going to be difficult, he said, to play through two full modes on Raza with three balls and an extra ball here or there. So now we're going back on, well, no, that would indicate that this is a difficult game. You only get through two modes and four balls? Or the modes are very long. man what an enigma this all is these words just yeah interesting i'm a little i'm a little surprised that he he interprets code completion as a nebulous concept i i personally do not i think it's a relatively straightforward concept uh maybe that's just because i know so many programmers but to me with with code completion i think it's simply a question of you've outlined presumptively, your software people or whoever's doing your rules, have outlined how they want the game to progress. Normally there will be a set of modes and a number, possibly, of mini-wizard modes and then some sort of ultimate what we would call wizard mode. Getting all of those in equates to code completion. Yeah, there's a rule structure. And if you want to add other things after that, it doesn't mean that your code was incomplete. Kind of like when they did that big update with, what was it, Hobbit? Hobbit had a huge update later on. You can go back and add new modes, and it didn't mean you were incomplete before. You can polish it up, yeah. Yeah, you can always throw stuff in. But it's still a complete game. But basically, if you didn't, if you didn't go back and throw in new modes or do like what Dwight did with Ghostbusters and add new stuff like that, it still would have, if you looked at it, you'd be like, okay, we got the features in. It's done. Jack Guarneri from Jersey Jack Pinball was recently interviewed on the Extra Awesome Pinball Show, and he said that Jersey Jack games, they don't leave until... Super awesome. Thank you. Super awesome pinball show. They don't leave until they're pretty much code complete. It's all subjective. It's interpretation. I guess I kind of get where... Maybe I should have to walk my statement back a bit. Perhaps what he means by code completion is nebulous is that he thinks that the different manufacturers have a different definition of what that is. Impossible. Whereas in my mind, I have a pretty stringent definition. And in my mind, most of the games that are released are not code complete. But that I think generally what they've all agreed on is 1.0 does equate to code completion. I guess that's kind of my stance. I get that. And I think that he's trying to be crafty in a way to say that he's got some kind of system. Because he keeps alluding to the uniqueness of this system. So I wouldn't be surprised if we see downloadable content that's user-friendly and that users can do their own code. Something's going on here. Well, yeah, we are discussing this in something of a vacuum because there's just so much about the innovations that DeepRoot has been promising that we've just not seen yet. So we have no choice but to be speculative. Mr. Mueller talked about some of the, there's been some employment issues that have cropped up over the last handful of months with Deep Root Pinball and Deep Root Studios in general. And he sounded frustrated with the whole Dennis Nordman exit and departure in general. This occurred actually in December. That's kind of when we heard about it, right, Dennis? I don't remember. It was definitely by early February that I was told privately that he had left. I knew nothing about the circumstances, though. Yeah, and Mr. Mueller said that he made an agreement. It sounded like a verbal agreement with Mr. Norman to not discuss their differences publicly. On Pennside here recently, and the posts were deleted, but a former Deep Root employee went on to Pennside saying that people weren't getting paid at the right time. And then that person had been private messaging people the dirtiest of details regarding employment at, I believe, Deep Root Studios. But Robert said that he now has a law firm involved in this. Okay. This kind of reminds me of when there was that disgruntled JJP employee that leaked all the game titles, which we're still not caught up on yet. Or the highway pinball employees. Yeah. That guy's crazy. The JJP one was brutal just because they're still not all the way through all the releases that were leaked from that source.
    43:26
    That's very true. It's like, here's our 10-year plan. A lot of changes. Even the Utah studio location, Robert Mueller said, that's been moved to a smaller office location now. I had heard something about that. This is very surprising to me. The focus now is on pinball first. AR, VR, the other mediums that they were discussing, animation. That's actually taking a backseat. Sounds like the Utah studio has significantly downsized over the last handful of months. If I were guessing and you're trying to make money, I would have thought those other avenues might be more advantageous than pinball, considering how saturated pinball can appear. But no, they're going all in on pinball. Or the cynic in me is like, well, maybe he's just saying that because he's talking to a pinball podcast. I don't, hmm. What is going on at Deep Root? Changes. Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes. And a baby. Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes. See, now that was your fault. I know. All your fault. I'm not happy with myself. You don't like that song? I love it. I do like that song. Who doesn't like that song? The podcaster that was interviewing Mr. Mueller asked about the John Papaduke games that we're going to see, like Magic Girl, Alice in Wonderland. Everybody really wants those. Robert Mueller said that Papaduke has designed a game that going to be released prior to Magic Girl or Alice in Wonderland due to the complexity that those two games hold So John Papa Duke is, in a sense, I guess, how many games has he designed? So we're going to see a game of Papa Duke's before Magic Girl or Alice in Wonderland. Seems odd. Everything seems odd to me. Well, but I mean, John Papaduke has always been known as someone who liked to come up with the designs. That was one of the things back with Zidware that was always people are like, well, he's not finished with the last game, but he's designed another one. So I'm not surprised that he has wanted or has worked on other title concepts. And perhaps when showing them amongst the other designers or the review team or however they've got structured at Deep Root, they're like, let's this one might work better. it would be more valuable I don't know it's all speculative the pinball launch will now not be at a pinball or gaming convention Mr. Mueller talked about not being interested in having it streamed or any streaming component he said because their machines would be too difficult to translate with that streaming medium again he keeps alluding to something is different about this system I just can't put my finger on it, but something is definitely different. So what's the future hold sales-wise for Deep Root Pinball? Do they get off of the runway? Do they crash into a mountain in a flame? He said, quote, we will not be able to out-supply demand at this point. We will not be able to out-supply demand at this point. Now, to me, that's a troubling statement. He then also says, quote, I could really care less about people playing it, end quote. He thinks people are going to connect with the message of his brand and his company, which will then lead to the purchase of a pinball machine and more specifically a Raza. He's not really interested in getting people to play Raza before they buy it. He said once Raza goes on sale, they're going to sell fast and people are going to have to purchase it quickly without playing it. That's not an option here. How do you feel about the CEO or the president of a company saying, I don't care if you play it or not, because if you want it, you're going to have to buy it quickly, and I don't want to sell over $500, but if we do, then we're going to have to compromise something else.
    47:32
    I find that whole set of statements very strange. Strange is nicer than contradictory, so go ahead. Well, in a way, it complements some of what we discussed earlier about not wanting to sell more than 500 Razzas. That's why I don't think it's a complete contradiction. Though, I say it like that because the idea of wanting people to buy games, I think, would be paramount. So, in regards to him saying that he could care less about people playing it, does that, it meaning Raza or it meaning any Deep Root game? I think he's talking about Raza there. Okay, well, again, if he doesn't want to sell more than 500, then the less people that play it, the less people will want to buy it. Why is this the launch title? Isn't a company supposed to be excited about their launch titles? I know that's how video games are. I don't – that I don't understand because it sounds like – taking all this in, to me it sounds like Raza isn't a believed-in game and they just want to move past it. Yeah, it's like it lost the steam. It's almost like if I were to think about it, it's like we're – this is me speculating, total hypothetical. It's almost like here we are. We started with Raza because we thought there would be a lot of excitement and buzz because it was being worked on with John Papaduke over with Zidware. And now we're kind of stuck with it, but we want to see it through because we've settled a lot. We're giving a lot of these games to people that were in on the Zidware version. But, again, it had been a while since I read their initial terms, but it didn't specify Raza. It was like any Deep Root title was eligible. Yeah, that's true. So I wondered if maybe it was, okay, well, I've always thought that the reason Raza was chosen as a starting point was that the design was done. And that was going to let them move fast. And remember, we were supposed to see this game for sale last year. Yes. And so it's like a lodestone at this point. If I was the principal of Deep Root, I would be annoyed that I was still talking about Raza this late in the cycle since having my company announced. I would want to move past it. And he talked about that. He talked about, yeah, I'm going to get tired.
    49:51
    Like a future tense, I'm going to get tired. I'm going to get drugged down from all of this stuff. It's going to happen. It's inevitable. Everybody goes through that in the position that I'm in. but it just doesn't fit do you think that the response from that houston arcade expo on the raza may not have helped this situation yes i i think that's possible but the i would say that the houston response to raza was was relatively mixed it wasn't entirely negative there was a lot of annoyance with that one ramp uh i thought that the rest of the game was either received moderately or fairly you know depending on who you asked but i yeah and that's my point And I think, depending on who you ask, because it sounded like the people that didn't play it were excited. And the people that did play it didn't feel mixed there. Well, I mean, it depends. It might just be my perception.
    50:46
    Jeff Teolis was very complimentary to the game. I know he looks at it more from a rules perspective. And maybe that he saw stuff in the software that he was willing to forgive the layout for, for example. I don't know. We'd have to ask Jeff. but but now he is included to be fair i i get shit all the time so i'll hand it out as well to balance the point here he is included in the voiceover he has helped produce some of this game having said that jeff t ellis is very trustworthy and very honest he is a friend so i would i would think he would tell the truth but may not be my first person to listen to regarding you know what this game was like that's a that's a fair point and i know so few people who have had hands-on experience with it i don't have a lot of other names agree yeah right you that that uh that can say anything on it but uh we will not be able to out supply demand at this point was another quote you mentioned so i don't know if that's a like a sales thing like it's going to be so popular there's no way we can produce enough supply or again with the prior discussion and the covid 19 and responding to all of that, that they just recognize we're going to have such a struggle getting all the parts we need.
    52:05
    Even if the demand is under 500 like we want it to be, it's still going to be a struggle, which it's not a good position to be in, I would think. If you were in charge of deciding how many RASs to make, would you leave it open-ended? Would you make it limited? and if you were to make it limited, how many units would you make?
    52:30
    Given what Robert has said, that he doesn't want to sell more than 500, I would definitely have officially capped it. Would you cap it at 500 with the fear that it might not reach that?
    52:43
    Yes, I'd still, I'd cap it at 500. Like if he wants, if he would love to sell 500, but he doesn't want to sell more, then that's the cap. Who cares if you don't sell them all or not? because maybe that the nice thing about that is if that's what you think you're going to get another that's what you're prepared to order enough parts for and everything having that cap might help move some of the units okay and if you don't get enough demand and you're not going to order all the parts at once nothing says you have to build 500 of them you can end up just going okay it's it's 382 that's how many it was so we're just cutting it off then you just I think that Raza, because of the title it is, because of the lore that it has associated with it, with John Papaduke, etc., this is not going to be pinball for the masses to follow their message phrasing, their slogan, their brand, if you will. This is 180 degrees from pinball for the masses. To me, this theme does not, and this game's history, does not scream, hey throw it into your game room there bill and suzy for the kids this is a it feels like a more a uh a rare collectible than anything i would place this unit i would honestly do one of the two things i would place it capping it at 100 units at ten thousand dollars a piece or i would do 200 units at eighty five hundred dollars a piece they know better which which one of those scenarios makes more sense sales wise because they've played the game they've seen the game they know how innovative it is based on my optics and what i can see from the outside looking in give me 100 limited units because that's who's going to want this game because uh from overhead when i see this game shoot i don't think it's going into a home because it's a great shooter it's because it has lore and we can keep it rare. That's my take. I can see the value in doing it like that but they may need to move more units than that.
    54:54
    That's scary. That's scary if that's true. I'm using we like I'm with them. They're behind schedule by over a year.
    55:05
    and things are going to probably, in my opinion, be slow now because of the mitigation strategies that we're doing in response to coronavirus. It's just not an ideal time to try and launch a product, period.
    55:20
    And if you're not doing it at a show, you're not going to do it at a convention, you're not going to do it via a streaming, how in the hell is the world going to see this? Because again, this is a niche theme and this is a company that hasn't produced anything. You've got to get it out there, but I don't know who you're selling it to. Who is the buyer for this game? And maybe that's where all those pieces are coming into play. And the thought is the buyer is the people that are John Papaduke fans and who are interested in the lore, as you noted, the lore and the history of the saga of Raza since inception. but that they need to try and sell need they want to try and sell 500 units at 7 000 then do a limit you know like 285 they that the profit margin is to they need they need to sell more they make more off of that than what your model is producing it already sounded like they're going to sell them cheap all right to end out the rasa discussion robert muller did send this podcaster a picture of a small portion of the Raza side panel art. I'm putting puzzle pieces together here, Dennis. Bear with me, because he could choose to send anything to media, and he chooses to send side art panel, which, I don't know, it looks just like the brochure that we'd seen in the Expo magazine, what, a year ago, and there's nothing special there. Then the media person states, I think there's something about this. it'd be cool if it lit up aww stop it I can read through all are we going to have a game that lights up on the side cap that's what I'm reading into maybe I'm just looking too far into it I certainly don't want to hype up something if he's like aww shit I don't mouth in the weeds here I wouldn't read too much into it my assumption with things like that is just normally a desire to still drip feed quote unquote new things so that it feels like there's progress. There's just nothing new there. I don't know. I think this podcaster and this guy are decently close. There's more to go on. Mark my word, there is more going on here. That's just my guess. Okay, let's get off the Raza stuff. To end out the discussion about Deep Root Pinball, they were working on the Hot Wheels license, believe it or not. Hot damn! Some of you did not like the choice in American Pinball going after that license, but it sounds like there was a little competition to get this license. He said, quote, John Norris, designer at Deep Root, came up with an amazing design. He said that Mattel was, quote, not easy to work with at all. Surprised you that Deep Root was going after this Hot Wheels license? Yes, because it surprised me American Pinball went for it. I just don't think, as licenses go, what I think with most licensing is you want something with a story you want characters to care about something to pull you in yes and the only exception to that that i have seen that does demonstrably well is music pins because you're into the music it's like those are the two paths and hot wheels doesn't have a story it's just cool cars so i just that's where to pull you in and you want something that people can identify with maybe it's the superhero they wanted to become or is the rock star that they wanted to become it's not the the shark car that they're right and so when it comes to like a car license well hot wheels is really well known wouldn't something like fast and the furious or if you want to go a little more old school like gone in 62nd you know there are things where it's like oh yeah and i remember that story and i love those cars it's just it all kicks ass so much and it's like when i was 16 i got my first kiss yeah so i think that that's where just me i say you know with my zero years of licensing experience, would say that's what I think sells pens. Well, now they're keeping this John Norris, and then they're kind of shelving this play field idea because he said it was stellar and it was awesome. They're going to try to put it on a different theme. But Robert Mueller said that he knows a license that they're trying to attain right now that is more difficult to get than even Harry Potter. And that's what this John Norris Hot Wheels design would go to.
    59:44
    So a couple things there. Number one, really? And number two, sorry, that's all I'll say. No, no, no, no, no. It's a fair enough point because, and I'm still, until I actually see a game coming out, I'm still standing by the J.K. Rawlings purported blockage, and that is, well, Harry Potter is impossible to get. So there can be nothing harder than impossible, but go on. Of course, Deep Root's going to pitch it. You know, we've made this Raza. What is that? Raza stands for Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land. Okay, and we're supposed to be impressed. Why? What's your other portfolio of games? Well, this is our only one, but we're doing things differently. Okay, so you guys are equity. Everything's good. Well, we had some delays and some layout. And the second issue is I guess John Norris designs games based on design's sake and not for the theme of what the game is being designed for. Sorry, that was redundant, but you know what I mean. Yeah, well, I actually think a lot of designers do that more than they let on. I agree. They come up with something and then they might rework the main toy or something in some capacity to fit the theme. But really – and I think that's correct too, quite frankly. I don't – where people are like, oh, well, how are you – like an orbit shot is going to be that different because you went with a space theme instead of a fantasy theme. Oh, it's like, oh, yeah. I mean, God, could you just have imagined what would have happened if Tales of the Arabian Nights layout had been done in Circus Voltaire? It's like, yeah, it would have worked. It would have worked. It would have. Yeah, I think that – It's just like, instead of Bash the Genie, it would have been Bash the Ringmaster. Eric Menier said that he designed his first game, Pirates of the Caribbean, around the main mechs or the toys. And I think Steve Thelwyn kind of has alluded to that as well. There are designers who do it that way too. I think that's probably the way. It's probably a mixture. But then look at what Chicago Gaming is doing in conjunction with Spooky. Isn't that the Ben Heck layout? It sounds like that was the layout for Evil Dead. So they're just repurposing it and just changing the theme. And I think that's fine. I think it's fine. It's commendable. It's fine. I think you wouldn't know unless someone told you. Just like how people would go, oh, yeah, that Gottlieb gang, Gladiators, was supposed to be Legend of Zelda. And people think they can see where it would be like that. But if you didn't know that it was supposed to be Legend of Zelda, you'd never have figured it out. Right now, there's one man that if he were dead, he'd be rolling in his grave because he takes every damn layout and he creates it based on that theme. and theme alone this is ludicrous and that man is john borg ladies and gentlemen love you borg he ended the discussion talking about even looking at some more younger designers that you're going to be seeing shortly coming from deep root pinball oh time will tell we're gonna have to just wait and see is my buddy bobby says and all of you who are snarling at me at the beginning not citing Chris Cooler as aka Kaneda for this the entire interview was conducted by Chris Cooler's from Kaneda's pinball podcast he's the one that interviewed deep roots Robert Mueller I just wanted to bust his chops a little bit because he was giving my boy Dennis Creasel a tough time about not citing his previous report about was it Nordman leaving I think but Dennis He just doesn't follow Kanae on Facebook or listen to his podcast, so he wouldn't know to cite him in that regard. So, yeah, I was just busting chops there. Oh, he was upset. I cited my source. I know you did. I heard it on Pinball News, Pinball Magazine. In fact, I think I even had a link to the episode I heard it on. I try and always cite where I find out about things. That's why I was giggling whenever he posted it on Facebook. He was like, oh, Dennis Creasel, you need to cite me. I'm like, Dennis doesn't follow any of your stuff, so he couldn't cite you if he did. No, you cite where you actually get the information from, which is what I have done. Everyone, for the most part, is familiar with Canade's Pinball Podcast.
    64:00
    All you've got to do is tune over there, listen to see what all the fuss is about. He will let you know how great the podcast is. I think it's a three-time Twippy winning podcast, so check that out. But no, we're going to bust your chops by me not citing. Hell, Dennis didn't even know anything about this, but me not citing that. Just all shits and giggles. Fun and games. Yay, team.
    64:21
    I think it's time to close the show out, Zach. No. I'll tell you what time it is. You hear the tone of my voice that everybody loves so dearly? It's time for the one. It's time for the only. It's time for the Pinball Show Presents Pinball Market Trends.
    64:40
    How about that? Now, this week is going to be a little bit different, Dennis, because it's not going to be so much Pinball Market Trends. is going to be Pinball Market Trends Quarantined Edition. Quarantined, like entertained but quarantined. You see that little play on words there? Are you not quarantined? All right, you'll see where I'm going with this, listener. Training up this week in video games. Ooh, training up in video games this week is Final Fantasy VII Remake. That's right. This was no small task for Square Enix. No, no, no. Let me tell you, remastering a 5-7 hour classic game into a 40 plus hour part 1 of arguably the best Final Fantasy since Final Fantasy X showed up on the store shelves back in 2001?
    65:29
    Look, sure, it feels at times a bit Kingdom Hearts-y, right? And yes, they axed our beloved turn-based ATB style of combat or active time battle combat for all of you that have been living under a Midgarian rock. But overall, the genre will continue to trend as consumers get to relive the timeless classic in a modern world. Training up is Final Fantasy VII Remake. It's not even the whole game. It's part one, damn it. The game didn't come in parts originally. Over 40 hours.
    66:08
    And what is this, like, the original Final Fantasy took more than seven hours to win. I was farming tonberries to get your tonberry king there it is I knew you were into this I'll f***ing limit break you just sound like an ATB lover you're just so mad that they got rid of it one of the best combat systems they ever did they changed the combat system every game oh boy it was one of the best ones they'd ever come up with I don't know some would say this is better I'm going to equip my materia I'm going to go fight ruby and emerald weapon i was a champion chocobo breeder racer man i know nothing of this midgarian rock come on come that was clever i'm living under midgarian rock i wonder how many reviews you read to find out what's the name of that town also trending up this week in video games is animal crossing new horizons finding new life on the nintendo switch animal crossing it actually i don't fucking get it so i'm not going to go into synopsis i don't fucking get i don't know why you guys are playing this game it looks stupid it looks it's i don't get fortnite i don get this shit what it like people say it really zen what i don what it has pinball machines in it maybe that why look i don get it keep it It trending up I give you that But my interest in it no No all low I don understand I think the plot is you go into debt to a raccoon, and you sell tarantulas to pay your way out of it. Oh, man. Wow.
    67:42
    They say pinball podcasts are nerdy. They are. Unfortunately, Dennis, you know how it goes here on Video Game Market Trends. trending down this week in video games is none other than Fortnite. Oh, shit! Here they come. They're building ramps to walk up and shoot me.
    68:03
    They're so dumb. Just build ramps in the middle of nowhere. This is fun. All right, some say... But that's more pinball than anything else. Here, let's just stick some ramps somewhere. You have to have ramps. It's not fun.
    68:16
    Touché, my friend, touché. Now, it's trending down this week in video games because some say that the fad is starting to die. Some say the game lacks a breadth of content. And some, may I say, some gamers are saying that they are very much turned off by the whole Epic Games Store in general. What say you, Creasel? The Epic Games Store did have a fairly rocky launch and continues to have a fairly rocky existence. Epic Fail Store? hey they were able to create it with all the money they made off Fortnite hobbyists are arguing that this slow death of Fortnite and the combination with this them putting all of this effort into the game store may tank the entire company I'm skeptical about that I listen to my gaming podcasts well but were they reliant on actual market reports that were coming in from i i'm assuming publicly traded but i that's only done through the polynomial analysis of the eclectic gamers podcast subscribe and follow now well i hadn't heard that epic was in financial dire straits no but this thing is this thing is it's not going up from here well the problem with the old news is its competition is steam and steam has been around for so long it's a much more polished store but the thing is the epic game store is doing a lot better a profit model for distribute for developers yeah i mean they take a lot less of a share than what steam did the problem is a lot of the gamers on the pc side don't want to have to deal with more than one store so they are biased in favor of steam regardless of the fairly draconian practices that steam has in terms of revenue sharing yeah steam is kind of where it's at Yeah, and that's the thing. Steam gets steam rusts on its laurels, and people have been punishing developers for going over to Epic, but it's not driven so much by Epic's store being less user-friendly, which it is. It is less user-friendly, but rather it is simply a more selfish... I don't want to have more than one store installed in my computer. Wah. Back in my day, we had to get three and a half inch floppies and we had to just install the shit with our fucking computers. Bye, bye, bye. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're not done yet. Training up this week in television shows.
    70:50
    See, this is the quarantined edition. What are we being entertained by? I am quarantined edition. Normally you blame me for this or anyone, but this is not my fault. Training up this week in television shows is none other than the king of pussy himself. That's right. Joe Exotic and his show Tiger King, Murder, Mayhem, and Madness. A bit of a contradiction there is Joe Exotic is actually attracted to meth-addicted carnival working straight men, but you get the point. This documentary has everything from expired Walmart meat for zoo concession pizza to blocking up unpaid breast-enhanced teenage girls in horse stalls to that bitch Carol Baskin who allegedly fed her millionaire ex-husband to tigers. This shit is what memes live for. You still haven't seen it. No, I don't actually have Netflix. Oh my gosh. You're the Epic Game Store guy. That's you. I don't have Epic Game Store either. Also trending up this week in television shows is Ozark.
    71:54
    Ooh, a little Ozark love out there. That's only trending up because Ken always talked about it. No, I'm telling you. It is trending up. I've never even heard of it until last week. is it fair to say that that doesn't mean really anything? Is this another Netflix show?
    72:08
    It actually is, yeah. Okay, well that might explain it. I have a partnership with Netflix on the side. The story of a financial advisor that moves his family to the Ozarks and must keep his family safe by laundering money to a drug boss. You know, just another day in the life of the real pinball pimpin' Dennis Creasel. This sounds like a knockoff Breaking Bad. Don't get me wrong. this isn't the Jason Bateman gold of arrested development, but, team joke, but my wife Nicole is raving it and Ken Cromwell can't seem to get enough of it, so I suppose it's worth a binge. Unfortunately, trending down in television this week is Westworld. Wait, wait, wait. Chill out, people. Let me explain. Look, everybody's binging television the past couple of weeks, right? So Westworld is one that you would think you should try. But for f***'s sake, I'm struggling getting through this. you're waiting for the punchline, right? This whole trending. Well, try making it through Westworld Season 2. There's your fucking joke. I've heard Season 2 is pretty bad. How many seasons are there of it? They just started in the third season. It's ambitious and it could be good and it comes from the Michael Crittenden novel. Yeah, I've seen the original movie and the sequel movie as well, actually. There is a sequel. Yeah. Future World. There's a lot of good acting. What about this one? Trending up in movies this week Well, it's certainly not the local movie theater, but you can watch a hot title at the comfort of your home by turning into Netflix, Hulu, HBO Now, Amazon Prime, or whatever the hell else you're subscribed to. Thinking you're saving money, but the whole sum of the subscription cost is going to end up costing you just as much, if not more, than just regular satellite or cable television. But everyone is watching trending up virus movies right now. We can't get enough of them. Contagion, outbreak. People just can't get enough of situational movies, I suppose you can say. Have you been watching The Outbreak, Contagion? I did re-watch Outbreak a few weeks ago. I actually had that on DVD. See, it worked. I already owned it, though. I just wanted to remember the part where they fly in front of the bomber with a helicopter. See, now, in my profession, we call this anxiety-creating behavior, this self-fulfilling behavior, we call it job security. You are seen as an essential service, Sam. Holding steady this week in movies is the film Sonic the Hedgehog. It's not trending down. It's not trending up. It's holding steady. It's a Sega masterpiece of a video game. But the film... Got it? You got to go fast.
    74:50
    It's good enough. But it's no onward. I've not seen Sonic. you've not seen Onward? I have not seen Onward either try to watch Onward and not cry if you do it's just more what Pixar and Dribble they always do the same emotional heartstring strategies and it works because people have brains and hearts it works in Up we know their tricks so you can see Woody accept his demise with all of his friends as the leader I haven't seen that movie you're spoiling it Toy Story 3 you haven't seen? No, I haven't even seen Toy Story 2. I only saw the first one. Sweet Jesus, listeners, help this man out. You guys give me a hard time. Dennis Creasel has not watched anything that helps shape who I am.
    75:39
    Onward we go. Training up in other pastimes during social distancing is actually Zoom parties. Woo! We've been a part of those, haven't we, Dennis? Woo! Yeah. One. Woo! That's right. Also training up apparently is playing Guns N' Roses songs on your piano with a bandana and sunglasses on while throwing shit at everyone else in pinball.
    76:03
    Little jab there, Kaneda, if you didn't catch that. I don't know any of these things that you keep bringing up. Hey, look, I'm cooped up. I'm just having fun here. Training down in quarantine pastime is that bastard game of Monopoly. Yeah, the last thing you need to be doing when caged with family members is to start out an all-out war over a stupid yet a psychologically exposing game of Monopoly. Blood will be shed. Metal thimbles and trains will be the shrapnel of a divorce or a fucking dead dog. You have been warned. Growing up, my sister was one of those flip-the-board people.
    76:43
    Was she? Yeah, you could not. You can't hold out. You've got to sell her some property. and she would get really upset if we would not allow those trades to happen. You're like this.
    76:54
    Hello, McFly. It's called fucking Monopoly. I think I did the trades because she picked the properties based off the colors she liked and they weren't the good ones to hold. So I think I usually did them. Sweetie, loving purple and light blue. Yeah, yeah. Strongest characteristic in this game. I was like, yeah, give me Marvin Gardens. I'll give you this stuff. Get you your Baltic Avenue. There you go. Buy, buy, buy. And that was your Pinball Show presents Pinball Market Trips Quarantined Edition.
    77:28
    Quarantined Edition. Only on the Pinball Network. Oh, that sucked. All right, Crazy. Look, everybody's gone. It's just you and I alone in the house. You know, so that things don't get weird, I've created a new segment here for the pinball show. Is that okay with you? Not really. You're going to love the title of it. It's called Dennis Gets an Erection.
    77:59
    For fuck's sake, Zach. Perfect. Okay, so this is what I did, listener. So what I did was I said something ridiculous that Dennis was going to make a statement, a snarky statement on, In which case, I pledge to myself that whatever he would say, as said snarky statement, is what would be the title of this new segment. Very f***ing podcast meta, if you will. You didn't know I was going to say something snarky. I knew you would. I was relying upon it. If not, it was going to be called Dennis Gets an Erection.
    78:32
    So this new segment is called, for f*** sake, Zach. And what we're going to do in this new segment, I'm going to tell you a little story that I experienced this last week. This was a story, and that title's fitting for fuck's sake, because I told myself the same thing as a reaction of what I did and what happened to me last week. It's a very shameful and embarrassing story, but it's just too good to keep to myself. It's humility, baby, and it's all out on stage for you, listener. So buckle up, get ready for the story of a lifetime as we dive into, for fuck's sake, Zach. Now, listener, know that Dennis Creasel has not heard this story yet, so your reaction is going to be at the same time as his reaction is. Here we go.
    79:19
    This last week, the move is already done. All the construction is done in our home. New kitchen, new bathrooms. New everything besides the basement where I put all my games and stuff, but whatever. Nor here nor there. but we have some boxes and some stuff that needed to be taken away and thrown away. Now, my in-laws, my mother-in-law and my father-in-law, were here helping us load up the truck to take to the dumpster, right, as people do. So it was my mother-in-law, my father-in-law, my wife, and myself loading boxes and an old toilet because we replaced a toilet, a dresser, that kind of stuff, right? You've been in that situation, am I correct in that? Yeah, yeah. So this is a dump run, basically? Yeah, basically a dump run. But this next situation you may have never been in because what we were doing, so we were loading up. I was bending over and got that loaded up. Okay, got this loaded up. And I do this with my wife, and I might catch a little bit of heat for it, but a lot of guys out there do it. It's a little tushy squeeze or pinch. You've heard of guys doing a little tushy. so my wife I do this to uh I go down for a box load up go back down and I turn and I see this big beautiful ass right there wasn't really big it was a beautiful ass right there um so I went to because my wife wears these like these leggings the spandex and oh pinching a pinching a cute butt or a thigh with those leggings it's even better it's like the candle in the cave so I go up and I pinched just a little, just a little beep boop, just a little, you know, just a little boop, like a squeak. It wasn't perverted. I didn't go undercarriage. I didn't go, it was like top of leg, 15 degree inner thigh up towards the buttocks cheek, but not down south there. So you get the area, Dennis? Yeah, you've painted a visual. Okay.
    81:18
    So nice, nice firm touch. And I come back up and I realized I just squeezed my fucking mother-in-law's ass.
    81:29
    I swear to God. I swear on everything. And my father-in-law was standing right there. My mother-in-law just received the pink in. And my wife was nowhere to be found, ladies and gentlemen. What do you do in that situation?
    81:48
    It was a total squeeze. didn't realize until it was already said and done. Very much shameful, but it happened. And I tried playing it off. Oh, Sherry, I'm sorry. I just grabbed your ass and I thought you were Nicole. Maybe that's a compliment. I was thinking to myself, maybe that's a compliment because she's 30 years older. I'm so sorry. And it was a good laugh and an awkward moment. but way too good not to share to everybody that Isaac Mini, not willingly, I didn't know it, but I grabbed the inner thigh of my mother-in-law.
    82:27
    Taught me a very valuable lesson, Dennis. You know what that is? Maybe not to just randomly grab your wife's ass?
    82:36
    Well, I could see where you're coming from there. No, I learned that Nicole's ass is going to mature quite well if I don't say so myself.
    82:46
    Thanks, I'll be here all week. And that was for f***'s sake, Zach. Alright guys, it's time for the show where we come to a close and we can't come to a close without thanking each and every one of you for downloading this podcast episode as well as listening to all of the other wonderful content coming from the Pinball Network. It may be down to Dennis and I as founders, but our family of content keeps growing. So much so that we have a new TPN YouTube provider, Arcade Crusade, that you're going to see this week dropped probably by now. An in-depth how-to video on rebuilding flippers. Now, you might think that's easy and stuff, but you need to check out the videos. Really well done, and he goes into great depth on doing so. and he's hoping that other people join in and give tips on how to fix things, how to repair things. Dennis, maybe you can pick up a camera. I know you do some tinkering on those got leaves of yours. I don't think I put together anything as good as what this was. I'll make you a deal. You film it. I'll edit it, baby. It's not the editing that's the problem. It's the content. It's not the years, Zach. It's the mileage. It's not the years. also we have Ken Cromwell who had to bow out of the Flippin' Out Pinball podcast channel that was seen on the Pinball Network but that's okay because coming soon you're going to have myself doing a stream on the Flippin' Out Pinball channel as well as uh oh just got word that Beattie and Bill may have a stream as well on Flippin' Out and even if we cross our fingers cross our toes you got all your toes crossed people maybe greg bone starts joining the stream team of flipping out pinball so go subscribe to the pinball network streaming and then you'll be sent over to all of our tpn streaming affiliates they've been doing some terrific work what the flip was on a eight to ten day straight streamathon we had don't panic flip that was doing some cool stuff interacting with other people in battles. The list goes on and on and on and on. Mafia, Arcade Mafia, they were doing their top 50 pins of all time. One iPod, one pinball. I just love watching them and their interaction. They could just eat snacks all day, and I'd be okay with that. And you've got to listen to the podcast on the Pinball Network. The most recent Final Round Pinball podcast, Dennis, I know you listened to it. They welcomed guests Ed Robertson from the Barenaked Ladies, as well as Phil Grimaldi to talk about some streaming. Yeah, both of those interviews were really entertaining. Oh, they're so good over there. They are so, so good. Dennis, can you let people know in between now and the next time they hear your sweet, sultry, luscious voice where they can reach out and speak with you to Grimaldi? Yeah, no, I don't speak with people, so that's not going to happen. But you can email me at collectivegamerspodcast at gmail.com. Tony and I both monitor that email, but if it's for me, it will get to me. Do not worry. I'm sure that Dennis would love to be included in your next Zoom party.
    86:01
    Probably not. I'm working 80-hour weeks at this point. Dude, you have been hit up pretty hard with all this stuff. It's just been a mess. You can catch me, Zach, at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. You can also catch Dennis there. Check out the new Straight Down the Middle pinball episodes at SDT and Pinball over on YouTube. You can email us there at sdtmpinball at gmail.com. And if you're ready for the new pinball machine, it's calling to you. You know what title it is, Dennis. Do you have any still? I do, absolutely. What you want? I got it. Where's Hot Wheels? Hot Wheels should be on its way shortly. Taking orders for that right now. You want a Stranger Things, Pro, Premium, Melee? Boom. Got you covered. Iron Man? Boom. Newest Vault from CERN? Got you covered. Absolutely. I do like Iron Man. You want Jurassic Park Pro? Boom. Premiums? Eh. We'll do a pre-order list for that one.
    87:00
    If you're needing an Escalera, now's the perfect time to get yourself one so you can learn how to use that and get all of the heavy stuff that you're quarantining from staircase to staircase. Get it now at Flippin' Out Pinball. You can check us out on the website at FlippinOutPinball.com. Email me at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at FlippinOutPinball.com. Or hell, call me. at 812-457-9711. Do us a favor, if you like this podcast, if you're loving what we're doing over here at the Pinball Network and the Pinball Show, give us a review, give us a rating, and we'd much appreciate that. If you've got any crap to say, come on. Share the love, don't share the hate. Where's our puppets show? Oh, I think it's in the works, man. Okay. I think it's in the works, and it's going to be a good one. So as a tribute to our great friend Ken Cromwell, for Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. Have a good afternoon, evening, morning.
    87:59
    Swing and a miss. Of course, Bill. And always practice safe pinball and quarantined, quarantined. It's entertained. Quarantined up. So long, everybody.
    88:18
    You know you like that. It was better than your usual, I will give you that. You know, the only reason I... This one actually felt researched, I'm proud of you. Yeah, well, it was, unfortunately.
    88:29
    And every pinball podcast gets all their information from me, Kaneda. That'll really fire him up. I watch the rivers change their sides But never leave the stream of warm permanent sand So the days float through my eyes But still the days seem the same And these children that you spit on As they try to change their worlds Are immune to your consultations They're quite aware of what they're going through Ch-ch-ch-changes Turn and face the strange Ch-ch-changes Don't tell them to grow up and part of it Ch-ch-ch-changes I'm gonna face the strange changes