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Pinball: The Man Who Saved The Game - Pinball Expo 2023 - Pinball News

Pinball News (Pinball Expo 2023)·video·29m 12s·analyzed·Oct 20, 2023
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TL;DR

Roger Sharpe and Michael Gottlieb discuss the pinball documentary and industry history at Expo 2023.

Summary

Roger Sharpe and Michael Gottlieb discuss the documentary "Pinball: The Man Who Saved The Game" at Pinball Expo 2023. Michael Gottlieb provides historical context on his father Alvin Gottlieb's role in fighting to legalize flipper pinball machines and preserve the Gottlieb company's territory against Bally. Roger Sharpe recounts how he built relationships with reluctant industry figures and how the documentary captures the personal stories behind pinball's history. Rob Burke shares anecdotes about establishing Pinball Expo in 1985 and his relationships with Alvin Gottlieb and other industry pioneers, emphasizing Chicago's historical role as the pinball manufacturing capital.

Key Claims

  • Alvin Gottlieb was a consultant who helped write the statute for the United States Congress regarding amusement machines

    high confidence · Michael Gottlieb directly quotes his father stating this when confronted by judges in courtroom testimony

  • Gottlieb & Company was sold to Columbia Pictures in 1977

    high confidence · Michael Gottlieb states this as a historical fact at the beginning of his remarks

  • Chicago has approximately 16 pinball companies currently (including boutiques and startups)

    medium confidence · Roger Sharpe makes this claim during discussion of why Chicago became the pinball capital, though he acknowledges uncertainty

  • Roger Sharpe has attended 38 of the last 39 Pinball Expos, missing only one year due to COVID

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe states this directly and notes he stopped for COVID once

  • Pinball Expo began in 1985 based on Rob Burke's vision to honor the old guard and create a community gathering

    high confidence · Multiple speakers confirm the 1985 founding date and Rob Burke's role as founder

  • Alvin Gottlieb passed away approximately 10 years prior to this 2023 Expo event

    high confidence · Michael Gottlieb states 'it's ten years to basically within a couple of days of when Dad passed'

  • The pinball documentary took approximately two years from start to finish (started February 2020, production October 2022)

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe provides specific timeline dates for the documentary production

  • Bally attempted to argue that bingo pinballs and flipper pinballs were the same thing in regulatory battles

    high confidence · Michael Gottlieb describes this as part of the regulatory fight his father engaged in

Notable Quotes

  • “Well, this is filled with letters of all the people who are going to write books about pinball machines.”

    Alvin Gottlieb (quoted by Michael Gottlieb)@ 8:05 — Reveals the skepticism of industry figures about outsider documentation and sets up how Roger Sharpe broke through this resistance

  • “The ball is wild. Well, guess what? So is life.”

    Roger Sharpe (attributing to Harry Williams)@ 11:50 — A philosophical pinball metaphor that has become an industry standard phrase, reflecting the connection between the game and life philosophy

  • “It's a love story and a story of strength and perseverance and a mother that loved a child.”

    Michael Gottlieb@ 15:12 — Describes the emotional core of the documentary as being about Ellen Sharpe and her relationship with Roger, rather than just industry history

  • “And he was just wearing blue jeans. He's like one of us.”

    Rob Burke@ 18:42 — Describes Alvin Gottlieb's humility and approachability, contradicting assumptions about wealthy industrialists

  • “Whatever exists today doesn't exist without yesterday. And how we got here, whether it's the people, whether it's technology, whether it's the passion, the innovation...”

    Roger Sharpe@ 22:41 — Encapsulates the theme of the event: honoring and understanding pinball history as foundation for current industry

Entities

Roger SharpepersonMichael GottliebpersonAlvin GottliebpersonRob BurkepersonEllen SharpepersonDavid Gottliebperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Expo serves as multigenerational community gathering bringing together industry pioneers, designers, operators, and enthusiasts; documented 38+ years of continuous operation with significant historical participation

    high · Roger Sharpe: 'I've done 38 [expos]. I stopped for COVID once' and speakers reference meeting Harvey Heist, Steve Kordek, and other legendary figures at early expos

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball Expo established in 1985 as intentional community-building effort to honor pioneers and create gathering space for dispersed industry figures and enthusiasts

    high · Rob Burke explains founding vision: 'I said to myself, first of all, we need to have the support of the industry' and 'I need to have a great speaker for the banquet.' Michael confirms Alvin attended 1985 inaugural event and participated actively.

  • ?

    content_signal: 'Pinball: The Man Who Saved The Game' documentary required approximately 2 years production, involved COVID-era remote interviews (Zoom), and on-location filming in Newburgh NY (October 2022, 22 days, 8 days filming participation)

    high · Roger Sharpe: 'Yesterday marked two years from the start of production on the movie' and 'It was a COVID project. It started by a random left field email in February of 20...October 18th in Newburgh, New York, where production started for 22 days'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Contemporary pinball manufacturing remains highly concentrated in Chicago region with approximately 16 companies including Stern, Jersey Jack, Chicago Gaming, American Pinball, and Spooky

    medium · Roger Sharpe states: 'Right now, if you count the boutiques, the startups and everything else, you have about 16 pinball companies. The majority of everything that is happening...are all located here.'

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.088

0:00
How many people have already seen the movie? A fair number. Wow. And you are willing to sit through it again. Wow, cool. Thanks, guys. I mean, seriously. And I will say something on behalf of Ellen, who had planned on coming,
0:23
but it's raining and it's dark and it's late. I have to take care of the dogs. I babysat today for Josh and Amanda. I'm tired. And it's like, screw that.
0:36
I said, maybe tomorrow, maybe during the autograph session on Saturday. Ellen has not been to the show in years. So I just wanted to say, because a lot of people have been asking me during the day, is Ellen coming? Is Ellen coming? The plan had been yes, but, of course, starting at 930. You know, it's our bedtime, Rob. You know, we're old people now. Anyway, I'm just kidding. But I'm not kidding about her hopefully coming. So. Josh said that he would be, he would be playing by the time we started. Probably. Yeah. All right. So we know Roger made a career in intellectual property. And I think you all, if you're here, you like the idea that there are more movies that are pinball related. So part of that deal is that this, they are still trying to make back their production costs on that movie. Hence, no videography during this session because they need paid copies to recoup their costs, right? I was all set to put it on my phone.
1:41
Okay, so with that tawdry bit of business out of the way, I'll turn it over to another member of pinball royalty, Michael Gottlieb, to start our session.
Harry Williams
person
Steve Ritchieperson
Mark Ritchieperson
Steve Kordekperson
Harvey Heistperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Ballycompany
Williamscompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Chicago Gamingcompany
American Pinballcompany
Spooky Pinballcompany
D. Gottlieb & Companycompany
Columbia Picturescompany
Pinball Expoevent
Pinball: The Man Who Saved The Gameproduct
  • ?

    industry_signal: Pinball manufacturers were secretive family businesses resistant to external documentation due to anti-Semitic stigma, organized crime associations, and perception of gambling device connection

    high · Michael Gottlieb: 'The coin-op industry...were family businesses...very private. Why? Because in most instances, all press is bad press' and personal anecdote about being called 'Jewish mafia' in classroom

  • ?

    industry_signal: Regulatory legalization of flipper pinball machines was major multi-decade battle involving Congressional statute writing, testimony, and territorial defense against Bally's competing bingo pinball technology

    high · Michael Gottlieb details: 'my dad spent a lot of time flying around the United States, testifying in different courthouses' and describes his father as consultant who 'helped write the statute for the United States Congress'

  • $

    market_signal: Chicago became pinball manufacturing capital due to convergence of skilled workforce (Polish immigrant communities), transportation infrastructure (rail, water), raw materials access, and strategic geographic position between East Coast and West

    high · Roger Sharpe explains: 'Chicago at one time...has the largest Polish population outside of Poland...Transit lines, rail, water, St. Lawrence Seaway, Great Lakes, Mississippi River' and serves as midpoint of transcontinental development

  • ?

    community_signal: Roger Sharpe successfully penetrated closed Gottlieb family business through personal relationship building and documented their comprehensive history, becoming lifelong friends with Alvin Gottlieb

    high · Michael Gottlieb: 'Roger sat down with my father and I think that there was a very deep connection established very early on' and describes father sharing 'stories that he hadn't told anyone for decades'

    • 1:56
    In 1977, when my father sold the Gottlieb & Company to Columbia Pictures, they had a promotional video made, and it was a Betamax. And if any of you remember my father, he was pretty conversational, but this Betamax started, hello, I'm Alvin Gottlieb, in a voice that wasn't really his voice. So hello, I'm Michael Gottlieb. I'm David Gottlieb's grandson. I have been in the video game industry for about 15 years. I was in the slot machine industry for about 10 years and had the pleasure of working for Roger when I worked at Williams Valley Midway and I think I probably first met him in 1976.
    2:43
    Actually before he was born. Basically, yeah, exactly. Technically, I can't be that. Let me put it to you this way. I was probably two or three years old the first time my dad started taking me to trade shows. So a little bit of context there.
    2:57
    I wanted to touch on a couple of things with the movie. The first thing is that from a standpoint of history, what the landscape looked like at the time. So my dad built pinball machines, but he also did whatever was required, and what was very much required over many decades was fighting to legalize amusement pinball machines, flipper pinball machines in territories, and to preserve whatever territories that they had because there was a constant battle going on basically between the fellows at Gottlieb and Williams and the people at Bally. Bally was trying to convince people that bingo pinballs were the same as flipper pinballs, and they weren't. Bingo pinballs were effectively gambling devices. taxed differently and everything else. So it was a very problematic time. And my dad spent a lot of time flying around the United States, testifying in different courthouses and talking to people, trying to convince them what amusement machines were, what flipper machines were. He told a couple of stories where he would get into arguments with these judges, and the judges would cite a particular statute and say, so what makes you an expert on this? And my father said, Well, I was a consultant that helped write the statute for the United States Congress when it was originally put in the book, so I know something about this. So it was a continual battle with the establishment of Adaball, very important, very crucial, right, to allow amusement machines where replay wasn't allowed, and Adaball was very helpful in that respect. So the point is that while there's a degree of like, oh, you know, this is a fun little story, this was really serious stuff, and this was the livelihood. The number of times operators and distributors would call my dad and say, we're getting into a yellow zone here with local ordinances or whatever the case may be. We might lose the ability or they're going to change the taxation and charge an astronomical amount on these machines to be able to operate them. So I think that that made my father a kindred spirit to the cause that Roger was pursuing, and he understood the importance of it. And by 1976, it was a battle that Dad had been fighting for several decades.
    5:23
    Secondly, to say that the coin-op, first of all, the coin-op industry, again, for context, family businesses, not corporations, not publicly traded. These were family businesses, and they were very, very private. Why? Because in most instances, all press is bad press. When you were in coin-op back in those days, people would accuse you of being affiliated or this, that, or the other thing. You know, I wear my last name proudly, but I will also tell you the number of instances where I had somebody in a classroom when I was a student read off my name and go, oh, pinball machines, huh? I say, yeah, they go, oh, Jewish mafia. Perfect, triple word score, anti-Semitic, and you've insulted me, right? So that was the reality of the day, though. There was a challenge with the perception of the product and the people that were involved in their manufacture. Consequently, it was a very, very closed business, a very private business, and they didn't want to talk to people from the outside. And, you know, Roger made the rounds and the people that initially were willing to speak with him, the line was, okay, well, maybe I'll speak with you, but there's no way you're speaking to Gottlieb. Nobody gets inside of those four walls and the family doesn't talk. And that was true. That was totally and completely true. It became almost like a double dare. Exactly. Do you have Gottlieb next? I went from Williams to Chicago, Coyne to Valley, whatever, and two each and every one. Yeah, you're never going to get in. They're never going to open up the doors like we are. They're never going to share the information like we have shared with you. Good luck.
    7:12
    Right. There was no way that it was going to happen but it did And Roger sat down with my father and I think that there was a very deep connection established very early on I'm going to try and not get choked up because it's ten years. This is ten years to basically within a couple of days of when Dad passed. but I think that by the time Roger was done interviewing my father and getting to know my father, not only did Roger know about D. Gottlieb and Company, he knew the personal life story of Alvin Gottlieb.
    7:50
    And Roger sat down in Dad's office and said, you know, Mr. Gottlieb, I want to write a book about the pinball industry, and my father said, oh, hold on a second, hold on. And he reached underneath this big desk that he had, and he pulled out a shoebox, and Roger said, what's that? And he said, well, this is filled with letters of all the people who are going to write books about pinball machines.
    8:12
    But a connection was formed, which became a lifelong, very deep friendship with all of the Gottlieb family. And so Dad opened up to Roger and told stories that he hadn't told anyone for decades. The history, the Great Depression, World War II, there was a lot. I mean, look, the key ingredient, and I don't want to belabor all of this. I know you guys are anxious to watch the movie. You know, maybe at some point in time we can get into some of this other information, which I still find interesting, but I'm an old person. So for me, anything that predates whatever black and white TV still seems to be relevant. So, again, not wanting to bore anybody, I am blessed by Michael taking the time to actually come out here specifically for this. I will say that, you know, in regard to the movie, for those who haven't seen it, okay, hopefully you'll enjoy it.
    9:21
    For those who have, hopefully seeing it a second or a third or an 84th time, hopefully it doesn't become boring and trite.
    9:30
    How many people are familiar with my pinball book? Wow, a fair number. Okay. I mean, that's the genesis for a lot of this. And I think, as Michael and I were talking earlier, because we haven't seen each other in a few years, even though we stay in touch, I came around at the right time, pure and simple.
    9:53
    The people featured here by actors, myself included, were still alive. You know, Harry Williams, Alvin Gottlieb, Sam Ginsberg, Herb Jones. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. Even contemporaries who are just starting, somebody like Steve Ritchie, a young little person. You know, Greg Ferris, a young little person going into an art department with Dave Christensen. I mean, I can recount all those people. And for those who have been coming to Expo, not necessarily for 39 years. I've done 38. I stopped for COVID once. Sorry, I wasn't willing, even though Rob was pleading, just come in the front door. You don't even have to come in. Just come to the front door and then leave and you're fine. And I was like, sorry, no, but I came back last year. The point that I was going to make is that, truthfully, the Steve Kordaks, the Norm Clarks, those names that just kind of resonate with us archivally, the people who are the latter-day heroes of what comprised the next generation of designers, the Greg Kamiks, the Jim Patlas, the Mark Ritchie, Steve Ritchie. I mean, the list goes on and on. I mean, it's remarkable to see what that journey was, and more importantly for me at a less advanced age to be able to meet with fellows who, again, embraced somehow, believed in me somehow, were able to give up their secrets some way, shape, or form.
    11:24
    They were old enough to be my father and grandfathers, and yet we had a symbiotic relationship with pinball.
    11:31
    We had a passion. We had an understanding. We had a love affair. I mean, they carved out their lives based on that. My life was going to be totally different, and lo and behold, it's a phrase that's used. I know that Gary has used it a lot. Harry came up with it. It's become a standard. The ball is wild. Well, guess what? So is life. And I think sometimes when you do follow, not even a dream, when you follow a door being open, what Rob created almost 40 years ago, thinking that let me pay tribute to the old guard, the Harvey Heisses of the world and others that people have forgotten. I want to create something for this community that's not even a community yet and have them share their stories, share their experiences, share their games. I mean, the magnificence of being able to do that and open up everybody's eyes, literally the thousands of shows that now take place around the world.
    12:33
    That's the OG. He started it. So, again, off the cuff, I know it's taking too long, but those who know me know that I speak in paragraphs, not in sentences. My apologies. I do not know what the plan is tonight. I don't want to put Rob on the spot. when I've done film festivals and screenings in the past. There's been Q&A in the past. At the end, if we want to do that and it's formal, that's fine. If it's informal, I will not abandon you. So anybody who has questions or whatever else, for Michael who may or may not stay, he may go to sleep because he's tired. He's an old person who acts really old. I'm an old person who doesn't know any better. So again, I'll turn it back over to my moderator. Oh, my Lord. So to Roger's point, I do want to say that I was at dinner in 1985 when Rob Burke sat down and explained a dream that he had and what Pinball Expo was going to be. Let me interject. Bone Busters, for those who want to know what the game was. Go ahead. That's right. Bone Busters was the game. And he explained to my father what he wanted to do, and he said, but I can't do it without your help. and dad said I'll be there and dad took archival photos and made slides and did a pretty substantial slide presentation in 1985 and Rob and the whole Burke family have become a close friend of the Gottliebs through the last several decades the old holiday inn by the airport for those who may not be alive at the time that's right the last point I wanted to make about the movie and many of you have seen it so you know what I mean when I say this it's a love story this movie is a love story and this movie is about a very strong determined woman that wasn going to let anything get in her way of her path her dreams making sure what was best for her child Seth And what struck me as so poignant is that in many instances in film you know, certain personality types are caricatures, right? If it's a feminist, it's like Norma Rae or Gloria Steinem type thing, right? Or it's this other thing. But the thing is, is that Ellen's the real thing, and she's always been that. And it's a story where I think Ellen would have, you know, the fact that Roger came along is magical, but it's a love story and a story of strength and perseverance and a mother that, you know, loved a child. When my wife and I got married, Roger and Ellen came to the wedding, and Ellen picked out a wedding gift for us. and the thing about age is when you're a kid sometimes you'll read something get something see something and you yeah you think it means one thing but then 10 20 30 years later it means something else alan sharp gave us this little sculpture and it was two pieces of wood and one piece of wood fit into the other piece of wood and at the time i didn't really think anything of it but then now i look at that and i look at my wife and i look at roger and alan and i realize that the one piece can exist with a hole in it by itself, but really for it to be complete, those two pieces need to be together. Thank you very much.
    16:11
    Okay. Well, now that we've reached an emotional conclusion here of some sort, my God, Jesus. So, again, as I said, hopefully Ellen will be coming.
    16:28
    I'll share a couple of things, and then we'll go. I mean, don't worry. I'm sorry. I know we're running late, probably. Always my fault.
    16:38
    Yesterday marked two years from the start of production on the movie. I mean, whether we get into this at the end and Rob says, hey, everybody has to go and leave, go back to wherever, I will share very briefly with you. It was a COVID project. It started by a random left field email in February of 20. Everything was done via Zoom and whatever else. And it was October 18th in Newburgh, New York, where production started for 22 days. I was there for eight of those days during production. But when I looked at my calendar, it was like, Christ, has it really been two years? The movie was officially kind of finished, finished in the late spring of 22. So about a year and a quarter ago, although maybe for yourselves, maybe for me, it feels like it's been around for like the last 10 years. So anyway, without any further ado, wait, the one, the only, let me introduce him. This is Rob Burke, for those who don't know him.
    17:55
    Thanks, Raj. The only bad thing about those two guys being up front is they didn't give me a chance to go up there and cry with you guys. So here's my little story about Mike's dad, Alvin. When I decided to do the expo, I said to myself, first of all, we need to have the support of the industry. So it's got to be in Chicago.
    18:14
    And then number two, I need to have a great speaker for the banquet. So that's why I went to see him. And I went to their home, and I'm thinking I'm going to be going to one of these gated properties, you know, with the lions there and the mansion, the whole smear. And it was just a very nice, humble home in Elmhurst, if I believe. And Alvin answered the door, and I thought he'd be in a suit and tie and Gucci clothes and a whole smear, and he was just wearing blue jeans. He's like one of us.
    18:46
    And he was very easygoing and very cordial. And he heard my story. He says, of course I'd hop you out. So it was a great time. I wish he'd die too, but he was a great guy.
    18:59
    So anyways, I want to say that. and Roger the story with Roger is he worked for Jeremy's Quarterly so when I was back in my 20's I wanted to be a GQ kind of guy hey baby what's up and I figured if I hang with Roger he'd give me some tips but the only tip was do your homework and stay what you're doing but anyways guys it's so great 1986 1986.
    19:31
    1986, we had a picture side-by-side. A lot of great members being here in the Expo and meeting a lot of faces, a lot of people that passed away. But for those of you that are newer Expo attendees, it's hard for you to connect like it is for us. The Harvey Heist stories, they had the old Expos. I mean, people would shudder when he talked because they were kind of off color. But we didn't care because it was Harvey. He was 85 years old at the time. I remember one time we were giving a toast to Steve Kordick, and Harvey came up front and talked about the days at Genco.
    20:09
    So one of the stories was, and then there was a girl that worked at Genco by the name of Mary. So Steve Kordick put his head down, and with his hand to cover his mouth, cut it high, cut it, cut it high. So I heard it because I was up front. But one final story leading up to that, I spoke to Alvin, And I said, I'd like to show you as the banquet speaker, but we're going to turn the tide. And I said, what I want to do is I'm going to have you start talking at the banquet, but then I'm going to interrupt you.
    20:42
    Yeah, I'm going to interrupt you, and then we're going to introduce Kovac. So he said, I'm going to talk about C.A. Robinson. I can't remember the gentleman's name exactly in California. so whenever I heard that name he says then you can interrupt me so imagine in 85 everyone worshipped Alvin Gollum I mean they literally bowed down around him just they couldn't believe that this icon was around walking around us so he's sitting next to me and he gets up and starts talking and about 5 minutes later I hear that word that guy's name so I stand up very slowly and I look at him and I said can't you speak about something more interesting what you could have seen in the crowd what are you doing talking to him like that well that was part of the whole gig and with the rest of his history we honored Kordek that day and it was a great time great memories alright guys ready Well I don know about that How many people have been to less than five expos
    22:00
    Wow. That's great. Let me ask you a different way. How many is this the first? Wow. Well, welcome. Yes. It becomes an affliction. So I'm just letting you know that next year around this time, you may find yourself thinking, oh, I have to get to Pinball Expo. So hopefully that becomes part of your routine, along with supporting all the other shows, events, and everything else.
    22:31
    So, you know, keep it alive. For old people like me, it's great to see new generations and new people coming in and hopefully enjoying and savoring it all. Understand that whatever exists today doesn't exist without yesterday. and how we got here, whether it's the people, whether it's technology, whether it's the passion, the innovation, the ability to really challenge oneself in all areas of design, manufacturing, support, whether it's dealers, distributors, all the rest of it, all of you play a part in that. So, you know, it's up to you to pass on the baton the way that I have with my sons, for some bizarre reason, the way that my grandchildren now embrace this at all as well, which is also frightening to see a four-and-a-half-year-old play as well as he does, knowing exactly what he should be doing, as well as a five-year-old doing much the same. So anyway, I thank you for your support for Expo and for pinball, and more importantly for taking the time out of what I know is going to be a busy schedule. Yes, please. Can I have a question? Sure. I want to talk about the history. Yeah. I told a couple people I was going to go to this, and that Chicago is like the pinball capital of the world. Yes. And like four people said, why is that? I didn't have an answer. Why Chicago of all cities in the whole world? Okay, well. Because someone moved here a hundred years ago? No, I mean, in all honesty, some of it's the migration of a workforce coming in. Chicago at one time, I think it still is, has the largest Polish population outside of Poland, hard workers. Transit lines, rail, water, St. Lawrence Seaway, Great Lakes, Mississippi River, raw materials, lumber from up north, Wisconsin, elsewhere. Raw materials and everything else from the Rust Belt, from Pennsylvania on through in Ohio, and really being the midpoint if you look at where Transcontinental Railroad was back in the 1800s, with Chicago being kind of like, in quotes, the center of the West and the more mature East Coast. So I think all of those reasons, forgetting about Al Capone and all the other generalization of the mob being here, truly that was the reason for everybody kind of being located here. and I think that it has endured and remained. Right now, if you count the boutiques, the startups and everything else, you have about 16 pinball companies. The majority of everything that is happening, whether it is in no rank order, Stern, Jersey Jack, Chicago Gaming, American Pinball, are all located here. Spooky, not that far away in Benton. You have Canada, you have Germany, you have the Netherlands, you have all of these other places. You have China in terms of what Mike is doing. So I think that, you know, Chicago still remains an epicenter for business and industry, and I think that that was why it happened.
    25:39
    I've been asked that question. I've also answered, I can't give you an answer as to why Detroit is the center for automotive, as it was. I mean, things have changed. Probably the same reason. a ready workforce, the production capabilities, getting raw materials, being able to ship stuff out to what we'll call four corners of the states, but also four corners of the world. And I think that that becomes part and parcel if you look at the history of many industries, not just coin-operated amusement games. Let's face it, you could have asked the same question as to, why Silicon Valley for video games? Nobody ever asks me that. And why? Because it was so close to the Far East where so much technology was coming out of China, out of Japan, out of India. It's a port. Hi, guess what? We're going to be in Sunnyvale. Now it's Silicon Valley. It's where Apple's going. It's where Microsoft is going. Whether it is along the coast and not in California but up in Redmond, just as easily gone elsewhere. Austin, Texas has become its own vital spot in regard to design for video games and movies and other things of that nature in terms of our technologically driven entertainment.
    27:00
    So I think that we wind up seeing where the hotbeds are, where people wind up locating or relocating to be there in that action. So go back to, again, 1920s, 1930s.
    27:12
    Hi, we're in Chicago. So hopefully that answers the question. If anybody disagrees, please feel free. What do I know? And I just try to give you a little perspective. I do like the History Channel. If you ever catch things about the men that changed the world, whether it's food and whether it's other things, there are some marvelous, great programs that they wind up airing that have been done. And some of what I picked up is not from there, But I'm just saying that there's good stuff out there to learn and hear about and read about. My grandfather moved from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago in 1927, same year my dad was born. He was a baby on the train. And like Roger said, they moved to Chicago for the manufacturing.
    27:59
    That's where everything was located. If you wanted to make something, Chicago had the skilled craftsmen, the tool and die guys, the woodworkers. Gottlieb started with the Husky grip tester. You'd put in a penny and you'd pull the thing as hard as you can to test your grip and see how strong it was. So, yeah, I think it was just purely a function of this is where all the talent was, and it drew people from all around. From four corners of the earth. I mean, look, Montague Redgrave in 1871, Cincinnati, Ohio. Not all that far from Chicago. Harry Williams made the journey to move here after starting off on the West Coast. So, you know, by the time he had created whatever he had created, it had already been knocked off by the time it got to the East Coast. So he figured, screw it, I can bridge that gap. And by moving here, working for Bally, working for others, carve out a name for himself, which he obviously did. So anyway, we can get into more of this stuff. Were there more questions, or are you guys ready to kind of see the movie for the first time or the 15th time?
    29:05
    Okay. Sounds good.