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#34 Spinner - spinner, chicken dinner

The Classic Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·49m 0s·analyzed·Jul 27, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Deep dive into spinner mechanics in Nine Ball and Stargazer, plus Dave's restoration pipeline.

Summary

George and Dave from The Classic Pinball Podcast discuss spinner mechanics across classic pinball machines, focusing on Nine Ball and Stargazer as exemplars of spinner design. They explore how different games implement variable spinner values through drop targets and lit/unlit states, compare Stern vs. Bally spinner implementations, and discuss Dave's recent restoration work on Kings of Steel and other machines destined for resale.

Key Claims

  • Nine Ball's spinner is variable and maxed out by hitting the upper three center-top drop targets, worth approximately 2,500 points per spin when maxed

    medium confidence · George and Dave discussing Nine Ball spinner mechanics; they express some uncertainty about exact values

  • Stargazer has three different spinners: left and right spinners worth either 200 or 2,000 points (lit/unlit), and a center-left spinner with variable ladder mechanic tied to drop targets

    high confidence · Dave describes Stargazer's three spinner mechanics in detail from personal experience

  • The center-left spinner on Stargazer's ladder mechanic ranges from 5,000 points down to 200 points depending on ladder position, inversely correlated with drop target value

    medium confidence · Dave explaining Stargazer's complex spinner-to-drop-target trade-off mechanics

  • Nine Ball and Stargazer are the best spinner representation games from Stern

    high confidence · Dave and George consensus after comparing multiple Stern spinners (Hook, Lightning, Galaxy, etc.)

  • Fathom (Bally) has a 1,000-point unlit spinner and 5,000-point lit spinner with excellent sound effects

    high confidence · Dave describing Fathom spinner from personal ownership and play

  • Flash Gordon (Bally) has 100 points unlit and 1,000 points lit with an electric guitar sound effect

    high confidence · Dave describing Flash Gordon spinner mechanics from personal experience

  • Joe Lemire recently acquired a Future Spa machine and needed a backglass from Paul Ferris; his wife later purchased a second backglass on the open market

    high confidence · Dave recounting story Joe told him about Future Spa acquisition and backglass sourcing

  • Joe Lemire and Nick jointly own/operate approximately 28 pinball machines (21 set up, 7 ready to go out)

    medium confidence · Dave relaying information Joe told him about their collection size and status

Notable Quotes

  • “Definitely Stargazer is definitely up there... I think Stargazer and Nineball are the best spinner representation I think of that”

    Dave @ ~17:00 — Establishes Dave's expert ranking of best Stern spinner games

  • “Flash Gordon and Fathom, I think, are the best [Bally spinners]... lit for a thousand points... That thing goes and goes and goes”

    Dave @ ~25:00 — Dave's expertise on Bally-era spinner mechanics; establishes his collection preferences

  • “Right now we have Paragon, Xenon Flash Gordon, Fathom and Eight Ball Deluxe... It's a complete ballet lineup”

    Dave @ ~26:00 — Reveals Dave's exclusive Bally focus collection setup

  • “I think he's doing joint ownership with Nick... from what I understand, he's on a big property somewhere with enough room to collect”

    George @ ~40:00 — Information about Joe Lemire's new living/collecting arrangement with Nick

  • “It's a working game, but it's not gone through... I'm not finding the value. I want something a little bit better, and I'll wait for the right game”

    George @ ~50:00 — George's market assessment methodology and valuation standards for resale games

  • “You rebuild some target banks. You put a couple of Molexes in. You do the flippers. I mean, you can eat eight hours easy”

    George @ ~58:00 — Illustrates labor-intensive nature of pinball restoration and hidden costs in pricing

  • “Midway took the video game cabinet idea and said, yeah, we can do it to a pinball machine. We can cheap out and do this stuff. That's what they did. It doesn't make it right”

    Dave @ ~73:00 — Critique of MDF cabinets from the Midway/Williams era; reflects broader collector skepticism of cost-cutting

  • “inline mech... I compare it to the barrel with the cutout in it... that's not the worst of it, the worst of that is the big hunking piece of slug”

Entities

GeorgepersonDavepersonKeith ElwinpersonJoe LemirepersonNickpersonPaul FerrispersonOwenperson

Signals

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Deep analysis of spinner implementation across multiple era/manufacturers: Nine Ball uses drop-target-gated variable values; Stargazer uses lit/unlit binary states plus complex ladder mechanic; Bally games (Fathom, Flash Gordon) use simpler lit/unlit mechanics with sound design emphasis

    high · Detailed technical breakdown of spinner point values, triggering mechanisms, and comparative design approaches across games

  • ?

    collector_signal: Secondary market pricing signals: Hot Hand at $1,500 considered overpriced (~$1,000 actual value); Kings of Steel with restoration projected at $2,000; market appears to be correcting upward from Dave's historical ~$750 sales

    high · George's market monitoring reveals Hot Hand playfield planking and backglass issues; Dave's Kings of Steel comparable comparisons indicate ~$2k is appropriate given condition and work

  • ?

    restoration_signal: Restoration work highly labor-intensive: Kings of Steel required 20+ hours plus parts budget (flipper rebuilds, targets, MODs, Mylar considerations, parts ~$150+); cleaning/polishing significant hidden labor component

    high · Dave detailing flipper rebuild complexity, target replacement, MOD installation, rubber/bulb costs, cleaning labor in context of Kings of Steel restoration

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spinner design philosophy evolution: simple lit/unlit (Flash Gordon, Fathom) vs. complex gate/ladder mechanics (Nine Ball, Stargazer center spinner) affecting gameplay depth and player engagement

    high · Dave contrasts Fathom's straightforward 1k/5k split with Stargazer's 6-8 step ladder system affecting drop target tradeoffs

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.147

0:00
I've got to have my way now, baby. All I know is that's me. You look like you're having fun. Don't run up your life and I'll watch out here. Right now, you spin me right round, baby. Right round, like a record, baby. Right round, round, round. You spin me right round, baby, right round Like a record, baby, right round, round, round Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Classic Pinball Podcast. My name is George and today I'm joined by my co-host Dave. Hello Dave. Hello, George. were having a conversation with Keith Elwin of no particular fame.
1:44
And they were taught, he would, Keith Elwin was talking about incorporating a spinner rule set from nine ball.
1:55
Oh, I like it so far. That sounds great. So, I not only need you to talk about how the spinner works in Nineball, but I also need you to talk about the three spinners on Stargazer, because they all act a little different.
2:17
Right. So, is that a good premise? It is a good premise. the only thing with Nineball, I haven't had one up in so long, and I'm a beautiful one I need to restore for myself. I sold my restored one a while back, and I got a better copy to restore.
2:40
Well, I know off the top of my head. I should know this, but I don't. I really feel bad about it. See, this is why this is, if we don't do it now, we'll do it again. I want to talk to you about it because I think that's where we're good and we're bad. We're good in that it's spontaneous. We're bad in that sometimes we're not prepared. And we meaning you because I ask you some off-the-wall questions which you're not prepared to answer. But we have never, ever used the script, which is crazy because everybody else does.

  • Jurassic Park incorporated spinner mechanics derived from Nine Ball according to Owen (game designer)

    medium confidence · George referencing conversation he heard about Jurassic Park design inspiration

  • Hot Hand machines selling for $1,500 on secondary market have playfield planking and thin, brittle backglass paint that isn't worth restoration

    high confidence · George describing Hot Hand pricing and condition observations from market monitoring

    • Dave @ ~44:00 — Technical explanation of flipper mechanism differences between eras affecting performance

  • “We're good in that it's spontaneous. We're bad in that sometimes we're not prepared... I'd rather go lie without a net anyway”

    George @ ~2:00 — Meta-commentary on podcast format choice; reveals intentional unscripted approach

  • “They had El Cheapo LEDs all throughout the game. And I don't like LEDs, and especially El Cheapos, and especially ones that have ghosting and blinky”

    Dave @ ~62:00 — Dave's strong opinion on LED quality in restoration work; affects game value perception

    • Nine Ball
    game
    Stargazergame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Fathomgame
    Flash Gordongame
    Kings of Steelgame
    Future Spagame
    Hot Handgame
    Eight Ball Deluxegame
    Paragongame
    Xenongame
    Hookgame
    Catacombgame
    The Classic Pinball Podcastorganization
    Sterncompany
    Bally/Midwaycompany

    product_strategy: Historical manufacturer cost-cutting: Midway's MDF cabinets (Kings of Steel era) cited as cheap alternative to solid wood; designed for 3-5 year lifecycle with planned obsolescence

    high · Dave's critique of MDF cabinet longevity vs. solid wood (poplar, pine); comparison to video game cabinet economies of scale

  • ?

    technology_signal: Dave strongly opposes low-quality LEDs in restoration; prefers traditional incandescent bulbs when game design allows; mentions ghosting, blink artifacts as reasons to avoid cheap LED conversions

    high · Dave's explicit criticism of El Cheapo LEDs on Kings of Steel; preference for traditional lamps with aggressive cleaning of lenses

  • ?

    community_signal: George and Dave intentionally avoid scripting; embrace unpreparedness and spontaneity as stylistic choice vs. competitor podcasts; acknowledge this creates both strengths (authentic) and weaknesses (factual errors)

    high · George's meta-commentary about going 'live without a net' and preference for avoiding canned sound; self-awareness about unprepared answers (e.g., Nine Ball spinner values)

  • ?

    collector_signal: Dave exhibits manufacturing-era specialization (Bally-only collection); Joe Lemire/Nick partnership shows emerging joint-ownership model for expanding collections beyond individual storage capacity

    high · Dave's all-Bally lineup (Paragon, Xenon, Flash Gordon, Fathom, Eight Ball Deluxe); Joe/Nick's 28-machine shared operation on shared property

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: All-Tech MPU and All-Tech Solenoid Driver Board upgrades positively impact resale value; quality boards reduce restoration burden and buyer perception of reliability

    medium · Dave highlighting All-Tech boards as plus-points in Kings of Steel valuation; contrasts with inline flipper mechanisms requiring replacement

  • ?

    design_innovation: Evidence of designer practice of porting successful mechanics between games: Owen (Jurassic Park designer) explicitly incorporated Nine Ball spinner mechanic; suggests design pattern reuse in modern Stern era

    medium · George citing Owen's statement about using Nine Ball spinner as inspiration for Jurassic Park; described as uncommon/noteworthy cross-game mechanic adaptation

  • ?

    operational_signal: Restoration profitability challenged by labor intensity: 20 hours work + $150-200 parts on Kings of Steel ($2,000 target) yields ~$75-90/hour gross (before overhead); suggests operator margin compression in mid-tier machine market

    medium · Dave's detailed Kings of Steel time investment; George's market pricing observations suggesting limited upside vs. labor cost

    • 3:19
    I'd rather go lie without a net anyway. I think it's more fun and spontaneous and it doesn't sound canned. Okay. So it's fine with me. I don't care. That's fine by me. If the Gamma boys out there don't like it, then turn the channel. That's all. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think this is a really good subject.
    3:40
    And it wouldn't be – I can't lay claim to it because I'm listening to those two guys, three of them actually, and they were talking about it. And I'm like, these two games are right up Dave's alley.
    3:55
    But it opens up the conversation to what other spinner games do we really like and why? And it all plays into, do you really like spinner games more than you like games without spinners?
    4:11
    I think spinners are an integral part of the game. But especially... I'm not looking for you to answer what I'm getting at. That's the essence of what I was trying to get at. And I think people who listen to us probably have never thought about it. And we need to have a conversation about it. How's that?
    4:34
    Sure. So I'd rather have you more prepared than because I don't know anything about either one of those games. So I'm worthless. I can ask the question, but I think we should be a little bit more informative than we normally are, and we can still make it a little more off the cuff. How's that?
    4:57
    Sure. Okay. So that's it. With the nine ball thing, I know that you get a full – the nine ball is a variable value. I know on the first plunge the upper stand up target up top there once you hit that makes that spinner worth some big points I'm not sure how many points it is but I know it maxes out the spinner whenever it is I don't have the game in front of me we can always go refer to our friend our neighbor Ah the neighbor I won't use his name I'm going to refer to him as our neighbor The neighbor yes the neighbor I think he still lives in the neighborhood Do you want to borrow a cup of sugar or No I Probably get it thrown at me After all this People were just We're a squeak He looks down On us going Oh I know Well, maybe he doesn't.
    6:10
    Well, once you see the neighbor, you can say, how do you like me now? You can always go watch him. You know, he's got a video.
    6:26
    Actually, I just did. I just looked at it really quick. But it's so funny. He did have a video, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. I was looking at it just now. Of course he did. Right. Of course he did. But it's not a really good. It's hard to see what's going on. It's hard to really, you know, you can't really see how close the gig is. But I know it's variable. I know the top. I remember now the top stand up, maxes it out. You spin it, and then you spin the spinner, and you get all those points. I think it's like either 2,500 points a spin or more when it's maxed out. I thought that's what they said, but it could be more. It might be more. It might be additive. I know it starts out low, like it's like, I think it's 400. So how do you add to the spinner?
    7:13
    I believe drop targets do it. The upper, I know at least the upper three, center top, add to it. I'll go look as well. We're going to redo this because you kind of have an idea and we should talk about it. Because I have some thoughts about how this game compares to, obviously, Stargazer, but more importantly, all the Bolly games we collect.
    7:42
    It makes me want to restore my nine ball now after looking at it. It's like, shoot, I have one of these.
    7:47
    I'm not trying to do that to you. All I'm trying to do is come up with a subject where I heard somebody talk about it. It was very interesting because he said he, you know, Owen said I incorporated what I saw on nine ball. And I never saw that on another game and incorporated into Jurassic Park. So I'm not, you know, okay. No, I don't know diddly about Jurassic Park. I played it a handful of times like playing it thought it was a fun game, but I had no idea what he was talking about. Yeah. It's a very variable spinner. Once you whack it good, when it stops spinning, you only have a couple, it's like a timeout, a couple seconds to whack it again and keep those points going. It times out after a couple seconds and it's back down to, you know, nothing. I think 100 points of spin or something like that until you start getting drop targets. Now, is that also on Stargazer? No, Stargazer is different. In Stargazer, the left spinner is either 200 or 2,000. 2,000 would lit, 200 would not lit. Same thing with the right spinner, same situation there. So how do you light it? The scoop on the right flipper, like both right and left flipper, has these little curved scoops in there with little star rolls over each one of them. Oh, that's that game. Yeah, and the lights keep going around back and forth, and when it's on the yellow light on there and you get over the rollover next to your flipper, that'll light that spinner and you hit it. So your right flipper hitting that, the left spinner lights, and then it'll spin it however you're going to do it, but that times out. As soon as that stops spinning, then it goes back to 200. So left flipper for right spinner, right flipper for left spinner. the other spinner in the center left top that's a neat spinner there that is variable as well but even more variable kind of like nine ball it's it's uh there's like a stop and go situation the three drop target center top uh that has like a little ladder a ladder of uh of lights there and as the lights are down towards the bottom of the ladder, the spinner I think is worth, I'll put these in front of me again, but the spinner is worth, I think, high value down the bottom. I think the spinner is maybe worth like $5,000 is down the bottom per spin. When you hit a drop target, it stops the ladder. And then if the lights hit the drop target and stops the top of the ladder, the light it's worth maybe i don't know 200 points of spin or something not much 400 points whatever it is and conversely that same thing when you when you stop the ladder the 5 000 points of spin equates to maybe uh very few points like maybe a thousand points for getting the bank of drop targets down versus uh at the top of at the other end of the ladder uh you get 100 000 points for getting all the drop targets down. So it's either the drop target's worth a bunch, spinner worth nothing, or spinner worth a bunch, drop target's worth nearly nothing. If you get in the middle of the ladder, then you get a happy medium of both spinner and drop targets worth something. So what changes the percentage going from one target? It's constantly going up and down. That ladder is constantly moving, just variable, kind of like the Paragon Ladder. Chase lights. Chase lights, yeah. And that's a setting in software. You can have it going a fast ladder or a slow ladder.
    11:36
    So how many, do you know approximately how many lights are in this ladder? Approximately, I'm going to say at least six. Seven. Six, seven, eight, something like that. Again, I have all these games, but you don't have the facility to have all these games set up at the same time. It's in the works at some point Then I can actually walk over to the game and tell you But uh You're doing a good job So If I were to say to you Are these The two Best spinner games from Stern What would you say Hmm Definitely Stargazer Is definitely up there Um Yeah Nineball, yeah What else would be in contention for that? Hook Silver is good, but not as good as Nineball Hmm Lightning's kind of fun, but no Galaxy, Meteor Catacomb, Big Game Catacomb incorporates the 9 ball spinner Catacomb is similar I couldn't answer that question so I don't know Catacomb is similar but 9 ball is better Yeah, I think Stargazer and Nineball are the best spinner representation I think of that So do you want to shift to the other side?
    13:23
    What's the other side? Well, first let's address this Because I've been accused of having the wrong pronunciation I say Bali, but other people say Bali did I even make the inflection different I say Bally I guess would you go with what's his name from the who there you can play my favorite table the Bally table king yeah the Bally table king is it Bally or Bally table king he says Bally I'll have to go listen to my jukebox Play it right now No don't He can't be Mavis No please don't So let's go to the Bali side of the table so to speak Which games do you think Have the best Spinner Among all those games Among all which games? Stearns? No, all the Bali games. Well, the Bali games. Okay, I was going to say. I lost my mind there for a second. Hold on. Let me reboot my brain.
    14:44
    The Bali games. You know what? Flash Gordon. I like that a lot because lit for a thousand points. There's a nice little guitar lick situation going on.
    15:04
    Thank you. Definitely Fathom. I like Fathom Spinner. That's up for $5,000. That thing goes and goes and goes.
    15:49
    See, I don't own either one of those games, so I would pick the two that are very similar that I own, which are Embryon and Xenon.
    16:00
    Yeah, they're good too, But I think Flash Gordon and Fathom, I think, are the best. Although the other one that's good, too, is Bow and Arrow for an EM. No, you're going back too far. We're staying in the solid state land.
    16:20
    Okay. Hey, where are the classes? You can go anywhere. No, you can go there. I'll give you all the time you want on that. I'm just saying I don't own – I need to understand why the spinner is good on both Fathom and Flash Gordon because I don't own them. Well, the spinner, when unlit, is 1,000 points on Fathom. When it's lit, it's 5,000 points a spinner. And when you juice your spinners like I do, to spin maximum spins is very nice, especially the sound effects these make when you do it. Well we haven't even talked about Spinner and sound Associated All we've been talking about is gameplay But continue with Flash Gordon So you just said 5000 on Fathom What makes the spinner on Flash Gordon What makes it Oh because it's 100 points to spin when not lit And 1000 points to spin when lit And there's that electric guitar kind of thing going on when it's spinning. So I'm excited when we get together to play your game because I don't own it.
    17:45
    And do you have a fathom set up or did you take that down? Oh, no, no. You'd be proud of my lineup right now. It's all belly all the time. It's a complete ballet lineup And I kind of want to put a stern up here I guess the next stern that comes up here Will be once I get my nine ball Squared away and Optimized beautifully That should come up here But right now we have Paragon, Xenon Flash Gordon, Fathom and Eight Ball Deluxe Wow Not a bad way To spend An afternoon or an evening With a beer or two Nothing like spending in tournament.
    18:27
    Yeah. I don't even want to escape. Why? Why would you? Why? So, Dave, I understand that you sold a game recently to somebody in the local area that many of our, well, some of our, well,
    18:53
    some people might know him. Who was that person? Yeah. I told it to, well, actually, it was Nick. I forget the guy's last name. But he showed up, and actually, I couldn't really tell who it was, because they both had the mask thing on their face, both of them. But then I said, wait a minute, one guy's waving to me. Oh.
    19:16
    So I thought the person came up to you and had a mask on and said, hello, Dave, but you weren't entirely clear who it was at first. Or am I mistaken? Yeah, I wasn't sure. They had the full mask thing on. They were going full Bane. It was like Bane from Batman. So I was like, wait a minute. Oh, wait, it's Joe Lemire.
    19:43
    I was like, hi, Joe. And they both were here for the ice fever. I had it on Craigslist because it was basically It wasn't a restored version, just one that I picked up. Did a quick little shop job on it, kind of a where is, as is sale, but working. For how long? Don't know. But didn't put a lot of time in it, so I just gave it a quick shop job.
    20:04
    So that's the gig there with that. So he shows up, and we talked about this in our last episode. so since we recorded that he's been on the pinball players con pinball players podcast pardon me okay with that person jeff and i'm sorry again jeff i can't remember your last name and they were talking they started the discussion about him obtaining a future spa which I thought was pretty wild yeah he told me about the future spa yeah he told me about that one oh I did tell you about that one? no he did he told me about it Joe told me he got a future spa and I said oh it's a great tournament game did he tell you the rest of the story? no oh what a anyway he kind of left the best part of the story out he didn't have a back glass for the game oh wait no wait wait wait that that sounds familiar that does sound familiar but a backlash thing that sounds i think yeah you know what i think maybe you want to see if i had one i think trying to remember i have so many different customers i hardly that's okay and i and i might butcher the story as well but you'll get the essence of it so he contacts i don't know he's probably spread the word through you know the hobby because a lot of people do know who he is and somebody put him in contact with did Greg Ferris do the backless on that game?
    21:46
    Paul Ferris did. I am such a jerk. I butchered those two guys. My apologies. You are a classic Bally boy here.
    22:01
    I've realized in our episodes that who's the comedian what is his last name carter the guy who like butchered the language i know slip mahoney from the bowery boys did as well and i'm sure there are other examples in history of media people butchering the language or butchering facts i raised my hand i i've listened to our show and i'm like oh my god i made another mistake and i never do the me a call but it's like you know what hey i don't rehearse i don't take notes it's just like you know freeform we just roll with it but you get the idea are you saying that you're emily latella i'm signing it live from years ago that's that's what was her catchphrase never mind never mind that's her reaching way back on that one yeah well anyway so i'm getting to the gist of the story so he puts out word and i guess he catches wind and has a framed version of it on his wall and is willing to sell it to joe oh sounds great and did and signed it and sold it to joe he kind of left out the part of how much that thing cost but you know who knows maybe the guy was generous and let it go maybe collected a buck doesn't matter he got one but in the meantime, the wife goes out and buys him a back glass on the open market from somewhere.
    23:34
    So he's got two of them now. Oh. But that's not the story. Okay. That's only part of it. Because I knew he had visited you. And actually, again, because we didn't talk about it, he did discuss, you know, the game with you. Yes. How many games do you think he owns? zero you would be so far wrong really your hair is now going to stand on end no way now hold on a while back he decided to divest himself from pinball machines and just play the people he must have got the COVID fever well you know what I think he's doing joint ownership with Nick I think that's the gig you pay attention he is his roommate now is Nick his roommate I think so I think that the gig because I know they had the the pinball machines all in one place of course So maybe he there too There is a roommate best friend somebody who he is collecting with now And from what I understand, he's on a big property somewhere with enough room to collect. Okay. I don't know what that means. I didn't really get a full description. But it sounded like, well, when I tell you how many he's got set up and how many he owns, you will understand. So go ahead. Now that I've kind of primed the pump, I'll give you, as I always do, a guess. Go ahead. Well, from what they told me, Nick was kind of a more EM guy, likes to work on games and buy projects and work on stuff. So he had a whole bunch of, he bought a whole bunch of bingos. I think, what, 10 of them, non-working from somewhere or got them for free or something. So I know he had room for those. They had a bunch of maybe 10 EMs, and I think Joe had maybe eight solid state kind of games. So I'm going to say total they have 80.
    25:36
    How's that? You dropped out again. How's that? Can you hear me now? I can. How's 30? 30 games. Two off. 28, 21 set up and 7 ready to go out the door but didn't name what he had or the only thing he kind of said about it all was we're collecting value whatever that construes in both him and his partner's mind trying to buy low sell high or just buy low and fix maybe that's what it is it's total reversal of what you and I both thought. Because he did profess more than once, because I listened to his podcast when he used to do it with Marty, that he didn't own anything. And you know, and I think you're right, because of this whole BS that's going on around here, especially nowadays with whatever, whenever this is going to end, you can't play at someone's house these days. So you need to have your own stuff. so there you go so like i said eyes wide open it's uh it's interesting you know somebody shows up buys one you know obviously they're not going to tell you their life story but they do when they're on a podcast all right wow so you've been selling games tell me again what you've been preparing to go out the door because people have been listening to us on our current podcast and we keep talking about the trials and travails of Dr. Dave. You've got a couple ready to almost go out the door. Go ahead. When we last left our pinball hero, what did we have? We had eight ball out the door in New York, and then, let's see, picked up a Kings of Steel and just did a mini resto on that. That's going out the door this week. So Kings of Steel in a week ago and out this week, which is one of the quickest turnarounds. May I interrupt you before you go to the next game? Yeah.
    27:54
    I heard somebody found decals for that game. Wow. Mine had a bad side, so I was kind of surprised to see that, especially for that game. What else did you have to do to that game? Did you have to replace any targets? or was everything pretty good?
    28:15
    No, I mean, it was Bruce's game, so I did some work for him a couple years ago down his place. So I already did the targets. The targets are done. I did them when I was down there. But it needed just new flipper rebuilds all around because it had the stupid inline stuff versus the – Take those out. Take those right out, throw them in the trash. I compare those inlines whatever you call it, I think it's called inline mech, maybe it's a better name for it but let's call it that I compare it to the barrel with the cutout in it yeah, the big huge in the nylon that rubs up and down and wears out well that's not the worst of it the worst of that is the big hunking piece of slug is trying to go in and out it's heavy versus the, from the mid to late 70s valley stuff which is a fiber length with a smaller slug that's lighter so it's like if you have a so many horsepower engine and you have it in a light car or a heavy car which one's going to go faster a light car and you get a more response from the light car so that's why i would call it like you said use the right word response response response time quick flip yep quick flip, powerful flip, and more reliable because less working moving parts as well.
    29:37
    I only have one of my games I haven't redone. Pretty easy conversion. So I did all that and redid, you know, pops on the usual stuff and going through the boards a little bit, just kind of making it reliable.
    29:55
    But when you told me about, you know, I can't believe what games are going for these days. I've been kind of out, you know, haven't really been buying them, so to speak, really. I've been kind of, I don't know, more falling into the different deals I'm into. But the usual Craigslist or Facebook specials or whatever, I haven't really been in touch with them. But when you say like a, I don't know, that hot hand you were talking about, is that kind of a working but planking situation or non-working and planking?
    30:21
    I mean, if I'm going to tell you because I'm the, you know, I guess I'm kind of the hunter. I got a lot more time than you. I just visit the pages and just look around to see what people are selling things for. And you get the occasional text or email from me with a game with a price on it. That hot hand, like I said, the play field, it wasn't worn, but you know how it gets, you know, north to south veins in it. You know, call it planking, you know, whatever. It's just it's not a solid painted surface like a brand new play field. It wasn't stored properly. Is that a good way of describing it? Yep. It wasn't stored properly, and it's going to have problems down the road unless you put a play for protector on it or you clear coat it or do something. No, it's not even worth that.
    31:15
    That's not that type of game. But that back glass from what I'm seeing, and you can probably confirm this, is it appears that who how those back glasses were made the paint on the back was thin and got brittle quick because of the heat because it always seems like there's it's not bad like big spots missing but just thin paint on the back glass and you can tell i mean he wasn't highlighting it and i just picked it out i'm like there's one there's one there's one and it's like okay so the back glass is not what I would call full color, like a brand new black glass.
    31:56
    And then the cabinet, you know, okay. You know, you put it between two machines. It really doesn't matter. But, you know, the cabinet's not nice either. It's shown it's 41 years of wear. So for $1,500, yes, it's a good working player's game. But do I find value in that? It's like a thousand dollar game in my eyes. because you know you're going to have to rebuild the flippers. You know you're going to have to rebuild. I don't care who owned it. If it's not you or somebody who takes detail on that kind of thing, they never looked at it. As long as it works, it works. Right. It's a working game, but it's not gone through, but it's a working game. It doesn't mean it's a bad game. I'm just saying. I'm not finding the value. I want something a little bit better, and I'll wait for the right game. I might not ever find it, but I'm going to wait. Tell me what this is worth then. Okay, I'm going to give you Kings of Steel with a nice cabinet. The graphic is still nice on it and the head. There's no cuts on the decal anywhere?
    33:03
    No. No fade. That's good. There's no smash of the MDF cabinet anywhere? No. Okay, that's good. That's a positive. Okay, plus one.
    33:16
    Back glass perfect. Should be. those were, if you look at them, they're pretty simple, nice, solid colors. So, okay, two plus. Coin door, nice.
    33:29
    Still, okay, what's the, give me the bad. Nothing, play field, nice. Original factory Mylar on it. You didn't take the Mylar off? No, uh-uh. Okay. No, no, but I'm saying, but the play field's nice. It doesn't need the Mylar removed? Nope. Well, let me see. I guess if you really wanted to, there is some bubbling. You're not doing it for that game. No, but there is some bubbling on some of the inserts, but not horrible. If I was going to keep this game for me, yes, I'd remove. But for someone who just wants a nice working game, reliable and fun to play, not going to bother, especially your average homeowner, not like a collector. Here's some more data. For you, don't send your money in yet. Okay. All-Tech MPU and All-Tech Solenoid Driver Board.
    34:23
    You're plus in the game so far. There's no negative yet. Yeah, there's no negative on this game at all. And then I just kind of went through it all and spent, I don't know, maybe 20 hours worth of work on it. And Maureen. Maureen did a lot of work on it. Yeah, you might have spent a little bit more time than you should have on it. Right.
    34:42
    What's that game worth out there? What do you think that's going to reach for that game? It's not a popular game, but it's a family-friendly game, and given some of the crap I've seen, the right bodies you might get two grand for it, but I don't see more than that. Okay. I priced it right, then.
    35:00
    That's what I'm... If it's how you do your games, which makes a big difference versus everybody else, you put 20 hours in. I mean, you know, if people have not put the time into a game, 20 hours can go like nothing. Right. You rebuild some target banks. You put a couple of Molexes in. You do the flippers. I mean, you can eat eight hours easy. It doesn't take long, especially if you're polishing, cleaning. I mean, there's a lot of steps to it. Yeah, new rubber bulbs. And also, another thing, they had El Chico. I'm not even including the list, the bomb list of stuff that you need to put into the game. I mean, you know, that's over and above, and that's not cheap either. Bulbs, rubbers, you can spend $50 without blinking. If you're doing flipper rebuilds and anything else, you can spend $150 without even blinking. Speaking of bulbs, they had El Cheapo LEDs all throughout the game. And I don't like LEDs, and especially El Cheapos, and especially ones that have ghosting and blinky and just horrible. so yeah it doesn't it doesn't pay to put those in and no the traditional lamps are fine in that game totally totally signed for and it's as long as everything's clean it's going to be nice and bright that's not yeah that's i mean even though it uses you know a lot of black and dark blue it's not a it's not a really dark game no i you know here's an idea clean your light lenses you know to take a bright led and blast through the dirt so that what i do you know again that all you know that all time and that what people forget you know they look at the game and go well what do you mean Do you think this thing got clean by itself You just snap your fingers, and all of a sudden it becomes clean?
    36:56
    Game genie. It doesn't work that way. So, yeah, you're in the ballpark. I'll give you mine. Mine was rebuilt, but it had issues with the cabinet and whatever, and this is a while ago. I think I got $700 or $750 for mine.
    37:16
    But it was to a family, and I wanted it gone. I didn't want to play with anybody. So it was like, I'll take short money. But that's quite a number of years ago. That game today would be low $1,000, given what I'm seeing out on the market.
    37:33
    Especially if it's nice boards like you're talking. If it's got two all-techs in it, that's worth money right away. yeah exactly so i'm some of the ballpark that's what's that's it's around that price so that's fine um yeah i mean it's a fit it's it's a good it my buddy bought one and it was his only game and they always thought it was a great game you know family friendly you could bring people over you can learn it right away it's a card themed game which has you know value to some people it's pretty much everything you want. The only thing I don't like about the game is the cabinet. That's the only thing I don't like about that game.
    38:17
    Yeah, I'm not a fan of the MDF cabinets because you get a little bit of water around and you start getting a little moldy thing going on with them. It's just cheap. It's Midway. Midway took the video game cabinet idea and said, yeah, we can do it to a pinball machine. We can cheap out and do this stuff. That's what they did. It doesn't make it right. It's like I saw the other day, a guy sanded a whole Bali cabinet, I think it was. Whatever. An older cabinet. 70s, 80s. And he's like, it doesn't look right.
    38:47
    And I'm like, what do you mean it doesn't look right? And then somebody chimes in, it's poplar. That's why it looks the way it is. You're thinking it's going to be like oak or pine or something else. It's got a distinct look to it. He goes, just prime it up and paint it. The thing's perfect.
    39:02
    But people don't even know what they're sanding. They're looking at it going, this wood doesn't look right because it's an off color. It wasn't like a shiny blonde. It was like dark colored, but it's a soft wood. I mean, they used a lot of different kinds of woods in the pinball business over the years.
    39:20
    Yeah, it makes sense. Whatever they had available, it was going to be painted anyway. What do they care? Plus, on top of that, they want the arcane owner to throw the game out in three to five years and buy another one and toss it in the dump. well we've we've already explored those two topics with our stories yours going in the dumpster and mine being run over by bulldozers in california so yeah unfortunate but hey if you've got one of them you're uh you're happy if it's in the dumpster that's it it's done one less than the one less than the universe as they say so what about any other games we only got through one game we digress as we normally do one quick another digression here games being thrown out dan rather had something kind of special in the 70s talking about games being and you show games being tossed out mid-70s somewhere in new york or something and it's on youtube a customer a future customer of mine was looking for a nice eight ball of luck so he might be hooking up with that deal soon he told me about this and I never heard of that. I never heard Dan Rather talking in some kind of maybe 60 minutes thing or something back in the 70s about pinball machines being thrown out and showed a bunch of like galley fireballs or something being dumped.
    40:40
    So, have you ever heard of that before? No. In New York City? I think it's New York City, he said. And Dan Rather was doing it. I'll go look, though. I never heard of it. Maybe I know the place.
    40:53
    so that's the next game up is a nitro ground shaker so I had this guy contact me he dealt with someone in Rhode Island some amusement company down there not a restoration here's a game we wiped it down a little bit no warranty no nothing he got it home didn't work because it got me rock so he said a grand on it and he got it home. It didn't work. And the guy said, well, yeah, well, uh, you know, I can't help you. It's, you know, you know, but yeah, you know, I don't, but he kind of, big surprise there. He didn't know what he's doing. He didn't go to the, he didn't look around for the right person to buy from, you know, it was funny in the places, you know, it's mean as other, other people as well, especially online, you can get a nice game, you know? Um, so anyway, So he wanted to trade it in. I said, no, I don't want to follow that generation. I'm not into it. I'm not in my wheelhouse typically when I deal with it. And so he sold it to somebody. He got like $500 for it on Craigslist. I think the guy, he sold it to a guy out in Western Mass. I think Mystic Pinball. I think he sold it to the guy that owned Mystic Pinball. I think they were using it for parts or something. I thought that way. So he got half his money back. So now he's willing to throw some money at me. And I said, well, because I have restored stuff, so it's going to cost a little bit, but I stand behind my stuff. I stand behind my restored stuff anyway.
    42:28
    So he made a deal on – because I was trying to find my game, a low-end game that I could – kind of like I said, the Toyota versus Lexus. This is like the Toyota line of stuff. So it was the King's Steel. It's a Toyota. This one's going to be like another Toyota restoration versus Lexus thing. So Nitro Ground Shifting is the game. I sent him a couple of videos of it. He liked the game, so now I'm working that one up for him. And I'm also working on a high speed. These are all games I have in my restoration queue, which is great. So three games are leaving. I've gotten rid of a lot of games lately, a lot of sales lately of games.
    43:08
    COVID fever, my friend. Yeah. Friends of mine have said, you've got the right business right now. And I said, yeah, I was busy anyway with all this stuff going on. It's like I'm even busier. I'm truly blessed by this whole thing even though life and the world gives everybody else lemons and I'm getting some lemonade out of it so you know you count me blessings there yeah so I'm going to try to get that done I told him I'd try to get it done by the fall but it might be even sooner but I need to get the high speed done by the end of the month with the crunches on for all these games to leave here by a week or two and then I'm taking in a high-end restoration on a Gottlieb Spider-Man that's coming in for the owner of a restaurant in Cambridge. He's going to be bringing me his... I'm going to go pick it up, actually. Gottlieb Spider-Man. The restaurant, he has a couple games I worked on for him over there at that Clover. I believe you talked about it. Did you do an eight-hour restoration on Addams Family Twilight Zone yes I knew it was one of those games I forgot which one it was like a multi-day resto on the Twilight Zone and a multi-day resto on the Medieval Man so you had two high end games there that at some point someone did some good work on it but they got beat the piss out of and needed a whole bunch of stuff and you know there were some issues here and there with both games so that was like last year and he all he just loved the work i did for you know for him um then he said you know i need you to work on my personal stuff too so so then that's uh so i'm gonna make that happen for him for his uh he's had the he's had the godly spider-man since he was a kid he got it uh for the present from his parents it's a collectible game a lot of people like the artwork of that game versus it is versus whatever they put out by stern recently and I couldn't tell you anything about it, but I hear a lot of people talk about it. I'll tell you why. Because the original has more of a comic book feel to it or the cartoon from back in the day, Spider-Man. It's like that. It's like from the cartoon. So if you're that certain age, which I am and the owner is, you remember the cartoon and that game is all the same. They look the same as the cartoon. and all the people on there, on the back glass and on the play field. So, yeah, it's different than the Peter Parker thing, the new one with the guy with the movie of the Stern version. It's a whole different feel.
    45:55
    Sounds like an entirely different license. It is. Yeah, it totally is. And this is, I think it is, this is a wide body. It's a wide body goth. So it's kind of like a black hole, black hole kind of generation. Flat Top Johnny's closed forever in Cambridge. Forever? Done. Fork. Wow. So you talked about Mystic. Done. Yeah. Fork.
    46:26
    Oh, really? Yeah, all this happened in the last couple days. Wow. Because of this whole anti-social distance crap or whatever.
    46:36
    We're sending America out of business sale? Yeah. That's great. That's wonderful. Well, small businesses are getting clobbered.
    46:48
    So anyone out there that wants to explore getting their games worked on, getting their games restored, or buying a restored game from me, you can check out my website at pinballdoctor.com. That's pinballdoctor, all spelled out. Or you can reach me at dave at pinballdoctor.com. Or you can reach me at drdavespinball at gmail. And that's D-R-D-A-V-E-S Pindleball at Gmail. R.S.P.C.A.R. Bally. Allie. Bally. Allie. Bally. Allie.
    47:37
    Oh, you know when you've got it But you don't know where from It hurts to talk And I can't even breathe I need drugs Here've been drugs So many to choose from I don't know Should I go to the doctor?
    48:22
    I'll stay right here And watch the tube Like a fool I feel down Down, down The Fancy's and Will's