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Episode 107 – Pindemonium with Mrs & Dr Pin

Head2Head Pinball·podcast_episode·1h 51m·analyzed·Sep 2, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.021

TL;DR

Playfield chipping issues dominate discussion as hosts analyze manufacturing and warranty challenges.

Summary

Head2Head Pinball hosts Martin, Joe, and guest Mrs. Pin discuss their recent visit to Hershey Park, including encounters with pinball games and an unsuccessful attempt to meet Ed Robertson of Bare Naked Ladies. The bulk of the episode focuses on widespread playfield chipping issues affecting Jersey Jack and Stern machines, particularly Wonka, with discussion of root causes (clear coat curing time, water-based formulations), supplier accountability (Mirco), warranty concerns, and the complexity of manufacturer response protocols.

Key Claims

  • Wonka playfield chipping issues are subtle on most machines but could develop into larger problems over time if left untreated

    high confidence · Mrs. Pin examined her Wonka closely with Joe and found subtle rippling around star rollovers that matched online reports; speakers discuss chipping progression risk

  • Mirco supplies playfields to both Jersey Jack and Stern, and appears to be the common denominator in current playfield defect issues

    high confidence · Direct statement: 'Mirco supplies playfields to both Jersey Jack Pinball and Stern and they're both having issues. And it seems to be just playfields coming from them'

  • Clear coat used in modern playfield manufacturing is water-based and takes longer to cure than older formulations

    medium confidence · Joe cites Chris Hutchins from HEP: 'the clear they're using these days is a little bit different and that it's more water-based than the older stuff...maybe it doesn't harden as completely'

  • Pirates (game) was the first to experience playfield chipping issues and received an official service bulletin with washers to address the problem

    high confidence · Joe states: 'It definitely started with pirates because Carl had issues with his. And they're also, that was the first one that the pirates got an official service bulletin'

  • Manufacturers cannot realistically provide on-site warranty service like consumer appliance companies due to scale, logistics, and part complexity

    high confidence · Extended discussion comparing pinball to air conditioning units, with Joe noting distributors handle first-line support and only escalate to field service in extreme cases

  • Warranty policy determination and response protocols in pinball manufacturing require legal documentation and take weeks to months, not days

    high confidence · Martin explains: 'when you then come out there with an actual policy, that policy is effectively a legal document...That takes time for them to say, first of all, we've got to actually understand how this problem came to be'

  • Community members often post complaints on social media before contacting manufacturers directly, escalating perceived response delays

Notable Quotes

  • “It definitely started with pirates because Carl had issues with his. And they're also, that was the first one that the pirates got an official service bulletin that they were going to send out washers to try and help that.”

    Joe @ Unknown — Establishes Pirates as the origin point for current playfield defect issues and confirms manufacturer acknowledgment via service bulletin

  • “Mirco supplies playfields to both Jersey Jack Pinball and Stern and they're both having issues. And it seems to be just playfields coming from them, so it seems like it's a them problem.”

    Joe @ Unknown — Identifies the supplier as the likely root cause, shifting accountability away from assemblers to component manufacturers

  • “when you then come out there with an actual policy, that policy is effectively a legal document. It's legal. So it's not like a company can say, all right, yep, we're going to replace everything. It's actually got to be a document, a point in time that says from now forward, this is our policy.”

    Martin @ Unknown — Explains why manufacturer responses take time despite community pressure for immediate action

  • “It's the same thing they're doing now. They're trying to figure out why this is happening. And until they figure out exactly what happened and how they can fix it, then it would be irresponsible for them to just jump out there and say, we're going to do this, we're going to do this, and then find out later that, oh, it didn't come from that and it was internal or it came from the manufacturer.”

    Joe @ Unknown — Defends manufacturer caution in policy formulation, illustrating complexity of determining liability

  • “I'm obviously terrible when it comes to fixing machines, but I will say that I'm not the worst in that I know how to take the glass off, I know how to lift up the playfield, and I know how to do some diagnostics of the mechanics. There are a lot of people, there are people that I actually know that don't even know that at all.”

    Martin @ Unknown — Highlights customer base heterogeneity in repair capability, relevant to service logistics discussion

  • “Well, get a new supplier. Do you, like, push back on them to then send out replacements, but then you have to send out, like, a populated playfield replacement. So, I mean, it's a very complex thing that I don't think they can really overly do anything about the current ones.”

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyMircocompanyWonkagamePirate GoldgameThe Wizard of OzgameGhostbustersgame

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Widespread playfield chipping issues affecting Jersey Jack (Wonka, Pirates, Wizard of Oz) and Stern machines, with root cause traced to Mirco supplier and water-based clear coat formulation

    high · Multiple machines affected across manufacturers; official service bulletins issued; community discussion escalated on Pinside and social media; Mrs. Pin's Wonka shows subtle signs matching reported pattern

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Mirco playfield supplier appears to have systematic quality control issue with clear coat application or formulation affecting multiple downstream manufacturers

    high · Joe states Mirco supplies both Jersey Jack and Stern; both experiencing same chipping pattern; American Pinball also likely affected; Chris Hutchins cited water-based formulation differences

  • ?

    product_concern: Playfield chipping reported as progressive—starting as subtle rippling/dimpling and escalating to large chunks missing with continued play

    medium · Martin's Wizard of Oz example shows initial chip becoming large sections of missing clear coat; listeners fear unchecked rippling will lead to major damage

  • ?

    community_signal: Community members amplifying issue through social media complaints before contacting manufacturers directly, creating perception of manufacturer cover-up or negligence

    high · Joe and Sarah note pattern: 'a lot of the time it's I have an issue with my game and I'm going to go on Facebook and put the company on blast before I even talk to them'; manufacturers frustrated with approach

  • ?

    business_signal: Pinball manufacturers lack scalable warranty service infrastructure; responses require multi-stage legal/contractual processes with suppliers before public policy issuance

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.079

0:00
The End Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 107 and my name's Martin and with me, Joe. And just Joe? Oh no, I'm here too, Marty. Who's that? Oh my god, I'm gonna give you like three guesses. It's Mrs. Pinn. We need to blow my cover. Seriously, what the heck? That game was over. Yeah, spoiler alert. So I saw a picture on social media that you peoples were together. What the hell is going on there? We're having a rip-roaring weekend here, Marty. Yeah, without me, I'll be. I know, well, that little pesky thing of you living like halfway around the world is just, it makes it difficult to get together. It's really inconvenient. We've been dining at Joe and Leslie out here to hang with us for a while and they finally made the trip. We've had a fun couple of days, man. We saw the Bare Naked Ladies last night. We've been to Hershey Park twice now. Played a lot of pinball. Played some serious Wonka tonight. And did you manage to, you know, obviously, of course you would have because, you know, you're the pins and Joe obviously head to head. You would have been able to go backstage at Bare Naked Ladies and gone, hey yeah, pinball famous, here we are. No, dude. That crash can burn. Marty, we tried so hard. I'll let him tell that story. Yeah, so this was weeks ago. We figured that we might try and see them, and so we reached out to him on Pinside. We found out what his username was, and I sent him a message. And then I didn't hear back from him, so I shot Josh Sharp a message and asked him to come. You did not. I don't know. Maybe Sarah doesn't know this. But I shot him a message, and Joe shot him one as well. She got up. He is going to think we are class stalkers. All of those things combined didn't get us backstage, unfortunately. So we tried. We tried our hardest. And we tried to get him over here to play some pinball. Yeah, we told him that Joe said that we had a Wonka, and I guess it turns out that he's not a huge fan of Wonka, so that might have been the turnout.
2:47
We're talking Ed Robertson, obviously, the lead singer of Bairn Naked Ladies, who is a big pinhead. So you got nothing back from Ed at all? Nothing, man. Radio silence. But he's a busy dude. I'm sure he has a million people who reach out to him at every city he goes to. And we're such weirdos. Why would he come and play Pinball with us? Honestly. Maybe someday.

high confidence · Joe and Sarah discuss pattern: 'a lot of the time it's I have an issue with my game and I'm going to go on Facebook and put the company on blast before I even talk to them'

  • Playfield chipping can progress from subtle rippling to large chunks missing if left untreated, as evidenced by Wizard of Oz 75th anniversary example

    medium confidence · Martin describes: 'started as a little chip...after a couple of plays after that, big chunks started chipping off as well'

    • Sarah @ Unknown — Points to practical constraints in remediation—populated playfield swaps require skilled labor and logistics

  • “So it's like, I don't know, I mean, Stern puts out so many more machines than Jersey Jack Pinball. Just by the odds of putting out that much, the odds of you're going to have more issues with more machines just by the same percentage but higher volume.”

    Joe @ Unknown — Contextualizes visibility of defects through manufacturing volume differential

  • “People who own pinball machines, a lot of collectors are very anal about their stuff and if there's anything wrong with it at all, it triggers them and they want it fixed and they want it fixed now.”

    Joe @ Unknown — Characterizes collector psychology and urgency expectations, relevant to community sentiment analysis

  • “I know someone that actually had chipping on their Wizard of Oz...it started as a little chip. And this was just up on the top right play field where the house spins around. And after a couple of plays after that, big chunks started chipping off as well.”

    Martin @ Unknown — Provides concrete example of progressive failure risk that underpins community concern

  • “They don't actually manufacture the parts. The wiring's not theirs, the harnesses aren't theirs, the lights aren't theirs, the enclosures aren't theirs, the playfields aren't theirs...So they've also got to determine which batch and if one batch or whether it's all batches. Then they've actually got to find the supplier.”

    Martin @ Unknown — Explains the distributed manufacturing complexity and multi-supplier liability web underlying defect investigation

    • Martin
    person
    Joeperson
    Mrs. Pinperson
    Sarahperson
    Ed Robertsonperson
    Josh Sharpeperson
    Bare Naked Ladiesorganization
    Chris Hutchinsperson
    Carlperson
    Clarkperson
    Laura Fraleyperson
    American Pinballcompany
    Hershey Parkvenue
    Pinsideplatform
    Deadpoolgame

    high · Martin's detailed explanation of determination/investigation/remediation/policy formulation cycle; comparison to AC industry service models highlights infrastructure gap; distributor-first support model acknowledged as industry standard

  • ?

    industry_signal: Jersey Jack and other manufacturers assemble from component suppliers (playfields, wiring, lights, cabinets, etc.) with distributed liability making defect accountability complex

    high · Martin emphasizes: 'They don't actually manufacture the parts...they've got to determine which batch and find the supplier...who's going to pay for this mistake?'

  • ?

    content_signal: Playfield quality issues becoming dominant topic across pinball podcasts, with extended analysis of business/legal/technical factors

    high · Head2Head dedicates substantial episode segment to issue; Joe notes 'it really has sort of blown up the last couple of weeks'; compares to past defect cycles (Ghostmasters, Pirates)

  • ?

    community_signal: Disconnect between collector expectations for immediate manufacturer support and actual warranty/business processes; emotional investment in machines drives urgency perception

    high · Discussion of OCD-like collector behavior; 'every 24 hours on the internet is 24 days in real world' concept; people expect appliance-like service infrastructure that pinball industry cannot provide

  • $

    market_signal: Playfield defects creating uncertainty about resale value for affected machines; owners worried about disclosure and depreciation

    medium · Joe references Deadpool owner concern: 'what's going to happen when I try and go sell this game? Am I screwed? Like this shouldn't be happening'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Location/venue machines showing quality issues; Hershey Park Star Wars Premium had broken right ramp plastic causing airball and rejection problems

    high · Mrs. Pin and Joe played damaged Star Wars at Hershey Park; documented ongoing maintenance problems affecting playability

  • ?

    historical_signal: Current playfield issues follow similar pattern to past defect cycles (Ghostmasters ghosting, Pirates washers); illustrates recurring quality control challenges in pinball manufacturing

    medium · Martin references past examples; Joe explains ghosting batch investigation methodology; suggests industry has normalized periodic quality issues

  • ?

    community_signal: Attempt by podcast hosts to leverage industry connections (Josh Sharpe) to secure access to celebrity musician (Ed Robertson) for podcast content

    high · Hosts contacted Ed Robertson via Pinside username, reached out to Josh Sharpe, attempted to entice with Wonka demo; received no response; self-aware about being perceived as 'stalkers'

    • 3:08
    So the arena that you went and saw them, we'll start talking Pinball in a second, but that looked pretty big. Like they do command a big audience, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they do. It's a huge outdoor stadium. It's really nice. Yeah, they put on a great show. Yeah. Yeah, the reason why I'm bringing that up is because when we think about pinball, he's probably thinking, do I catch up with these pinball nerds or do I play in front of 50,000 people? That's right. But he's such a down-to-earth guy that there's always a chance that he might because he's done that a lot of times. You see pictures of him at various people's houses playing pinball before shows all the time. Yeah, and he's mentioned on other podcasts, like, oh yeah, if there's a place to play pinball, let me know. Right. Yeah, well, clearly we found out he's lying about that, so. Right. Yeah, I guess so it is. We don't begrudge the guy. We know he's busy. But he put on a really good show, so kudos to Ed. And besides the pinball that you've been playing at home, have you been out and about playing pinball? We haven't. At Hershey, there were a couple games that we were playing. You should tell them. We were playing, they were decked. Oddly enough, they have a Star Wars premium there. Which I've only seen one of those elsewhere, so that was cool. Joe taught me everything he knows. Joe blew it up. GC. And they actually had one of the, the only thing wrong with the game was it had a plastic missing, broken on the right ramp that was in the right orbit. So every time it came around that orbit, it would airball and hop and then go middle. And then also you couldn't really hit the right ramp because the part that broke, every time you hit it, if you hit it hard enough, it would reject off the plastic and come back down. So, but, right. Jers couldn't get it up. Nope. Jers couldn't get it up. I busted that one out in the middle of Hershey Park and thought twice about it, actually.
    5:01
    With all the kids around you? Yeah, sure. Ah, they were playing T-Ball. Yeah, and they had a Hercules, a Comet, Star Trek, an original code, mind you, and then... That pool one. Yeah, that pool. Is it my pool? I forget what the name of that one is. That was crazy. Sounds like a lot of fun, but I'm missing out on, so well done. Yeah, Marty, we wish you were here. The next time you come to the States, Hershey, Pennsylvania has to be on your hit list. Yeah, look, it will be for sure. It's always been the top of my list. It wouldn't be the top of my list. I'd be going to, like, Ian Dennis with Bernie D'Angelo. I'd be like, Carl, pull me up, buddy. What's going on? Let's have a critical hit tournament just for me. What can we name it? That's right. Exactly. So, guys, thank you so much for coming on. Do we want to talk about some news? Absolutely. And the first bit of news I think is quite relevant to you as well because we're talking about the playfield problems that are plaguing some machines. And in particular, Wonka is the one that's really coming up as having some sort of chipping around the slings, I guess. And you have a Wonka. What have you heard so far about the playfield issues that we've got at the moment? I hadn't mentioned anything until I said something and he's like, oh wait, what? No, no, I knew all about it. I've heard podcasts about it and I've read about it on Pinside, but I haven't really looked at my machine extremely closely.
    6:29
    So Joe and I did a good once-over. There's nothing overly obvious. It's extremely subtle, but there is a little bit of what we've seen pictures of online on some of the posts. down by the slings, but it's not overly obvious, and unless I really looked for it, I would not have noticed. Yeah, it's just like a push ripple that comes out from all around the star rollovers. Right. I would never have noticed. Yeah. So, Marty, what's your understanding of what the problem with that is? Is that later on that can crack and that can lead to... I guess people are trying to speculate what the cause is, and so far, And manufacturers, and really it's been, it's Jersi Jack that's really got the problem. People have also been stating that it's been happening on Pirates as well.
    7:20
    But nobody's sort of officially come back and said what the problem is and certainly what the resolution is.
    7:29
    But I guess the number one theory people are saying is that once the clear's been put on, it hasn't had enough time to cure. So it doesn't harden enough. So when they start populating it, the clear is probably a bit too soft. And then, you know, whatever the posts that have been put on to it start sort of eating into the clear, which then once it starts curing and it's completely good, that's when it starts chipping. So I don't want to set off alarm bells to you, Ping family, but if you're seeing it now, it may cause chipping at a later stage, probably the amount of time that you're playing it. My understanding is that people are sort of saying, you know, put rubber, sort of put plastic washers underneath them and that should, well, I don't even know whether that's going to fix the problem. It may delay the problem. Right. Yeah, it definitely started with pirates because Carl had issues with his. And they're also, that was the first one that the pirates got an official service bulletin that they were going to send out washers to try and help that. So it definitely started with pirates. Morty, I'd also read somewhere on Pinside that Chris Hutchins, I think is his name, from HEP, he was saying that the clear they're using these days is a little bit different and that it's more water-based than the older stuff. Right. And that that might have something to do with the pooling around the posts. It just takes longer to harden or maybe it doesn't harden as completely as the older stuff did. So I was trying to, you know, visualize this situation in my mind. You know, I always try to get into the business mind of a company and what sort of pressures they may be feeling, I guess financially, to get a machine out. And, you know, if you're sitting there and someone says to you, look, we've got to wait, I don't know how many days until it queues properly. Let's say you've got to wait 30 days and you've actually got like your CFO coming in saying, yeah, we've really got to get these machines out because we've got to, you know, have people start paying for these things. And someone says, oh, you know what, let's not wait for 30 days, let's wait 20 days.
    9:49
    It won't be a problem, you know, just do it. And now it's a problem, right? I'm just in my mind. I'm pure specular. Wild speculation right now. But those are the kinds of pressures that I think the company would have where they think, well, you know, she'll be right. Just get them out and, you know, bugger the consequences. And now there's consequences.
    10:07
    Yeah, but this isn't their first game either that they've had this problem with, which makes me really upset because, you know what, these games are not freaking cheap. No, they're not. It hurt me. It hurt me deep, man. It hurt me real deep. It was rough. Because you got a limited edition, didn't you? Yeah.
    10:27
    It seems like it really has nothing to do with the companies. It seems to be Marco because Marco supplies... Mirco? Mirco. Mirco supplies play fields to both Jersi Jack and Stern and they're both having issues. And it seems to be just play fields coming from them, so it seems like it's a them problem.
    10:46
    Now, I guess I don't know what you'd do if you're one of the manufacturers because it's like, Like, well, like, we didn't do anything wrong. We're getting screwed over by the people who are supplying us the playfield, so it's like... Well, get a new supplier. Do you, like, push back on them to then send out replacements, but then you have to send out, like, a populated playfield replacement. So, I mean, it's a very complex thing that I don't think they can really overly do anything about the current ones. Yeah, Marty, you know, I know that you can appreciate the fact that as a pinball machine owner, It's not super awesome to have to go underneath the hood and fix stuff. And I know you and I have struggled with relatively simple fixes of machines, so having a brand new playfield come to your door I don't think is going to do anything for either of us because that means you have to basically swap that whole thing out, which seems like a nightmare. Yeah, no one's doing that. It's just, you have to be like what they did with MyHobbit is they sent down someone with a populated playfield and swapped it to. So that would be the only way. I was just trying to remember which one it was that, which manufacturer it was that did, I think it was the first time when we had the ghosting. I said, you know what, I actually think it might have been Ghostmasters where they were actually sending out populated playfields to replace. And it was because of that, because people were saying, yeah, I get the story, you're the one that's caused this problem and now you're expecting me to put a new playfield in. I cannot do that. And not many people can do that. So, they have to really, and even a playfield swap, like even if it's populated, for me, I would still be looking at that thinking, uh-uh, I ain't going to do that, I'll have to get somebody else to do it. Or you're just going to deal with a couple chips on your clear. Well. I wonder if you let that go, just quite, you know, just how much damage you would see over time. Well, that's, you're absolutely right on. It's how long you want to leave it. And some people will look at it and go, like you said, you know, you've looked at your Wonka and you said, nah, it's not so bad. Okay, but could it get bad? And would you be better off doing something now or letting it go on the chance that nothing's going to happen or something bad's going to happen? Yeah, that's the big issue is because, like you said, if you don't do anything now, by the time it does get bad, you're out of warranty and they're not going to help you. So it's like you've got to be kind of almost reactive to make sure you're taken care of underneath the umbrella of the fact that it's a brand new machine and it just has that. What's our warranty?
    13:25
    You better call up Jack. I don't think anybody really does. Honestly, I don't know. I don't know what our warranty is on any of our new Inbox machines. I assume it's...
    13:37
    A year? The thing is, in Pinball, right, even after the warranty is over, most of the time these companies will still try to help you, I've heard. So let me just do a bit of a comparison. You're going to be listening going, what? Why are you? Okay, let's talk about air conditioning. Yeah, I know. Why not? Let's do it. Okay, so the reason why I say this is, you know, in Australia, a Wonka is, I don't know, $15,000, right? We bought a brand new air conditioner, about two years ago, and it was $4,000, right? So it's not the same price, but we had a problem with it. It actually started leaking and then it stopped working and they send somebody out on site to repair it under warranty.
    14:22
    Right? Right. That doesn't happen with Pimball. Yeah, that's not a thing. They don't actually have a series of, you know, a team of technicians that can go out and fix these things under warranty. Why do you think that is? Well, I guess I think Jersey Jack, well, my own experience, if you're close enough, they'll send someone to help you because, like I said, they send, I think, the head of manufacturing plus someone else to swap the play fields in my office. Yeah, Marty, I do think that happens. Like, I know that distributors probably take a bit of that run as well. Like, that's why you have to contact your distributor to see, like, maybe they come out themselves or maybe they have people in the area that will come out and help you. But I know that has happened in the past.
    15:10
    And that's what I think. Like, the response that I've seen, because I believe that, you know, obviously we know historically Stern has had some playful problems as well. And my understanding is that their response really is you need to go through your distributor to be able to come to some sort of fix. Right. Yeah, because a lot of times you don't deal directly with Stern. Yeah, that's it.
    15:39
    Yeah. But, you know. It is what it is. I don't know. I think it's different. And I think my response really is the reason why you can't do a comparison probably with an air conditioning unit is the fact that in the world they're probably selling a hundred times as many air conditioning units as they are pinball machines. Also, so many different things can go wrong with a pinball machine because it's got so many different parts. But I guess that's why I'm sort of just bringing that topic up about people like me. And I will say this, I'm obviously terrible when it comes to fixing machines, but I will say that I'm not the worst in that I know how to take the glass off, I know how to lift up the playfield, and I know how to do some diagnostics of the mechanics. There are a lot of people, there are people that I actually know that don't even know that at all. So if they've got this problem, how do you service them? Yeah, it's a big difference because like you mentioned, an AC unit comes, it's a fully enclosed system, like a sealed system that you as the end user can't really mess that up. It's like something is on the inside that just went wrong and they know that you didn't do anything about it. It wasn't caused by you, whereas pinball, I mean, it can be done in shipping. I mean, there's so many things that can go wrong. It's hard to pinpoint that and then also be the one who decides who takes responsibility for that. Because if there's something that's really weird that happens, you can't prove that it came that way.
    17:21
    So it's a lot harder to figure out where the problems came from and how you support that. Because I know that I saw someone, one of my friends on Facebook, posted that they had just recently got a Deadpool. And after like a month or something, there was chipping on the playfield and then they contacted, I don't know if they contacted Distributor or Stern, but they were sent a bottle of clear coat as a fix to fix it. And he was like, well, you know, that's all well and good, but like what's going to happen when I try and go sell this game? Am I screwed? Like this shouldn't be happening. So it's like, I don't know, I mean, Stern puts out so many more machines than Jersi Jack. Just by the odds of putting out that much, the odds of you're going to have more issues with more machines just by the same percentage but higher volume.
    18:11
    So it's a really hard thing to figure out unless you can somehow get a, unless you can bring in other people from other industries that do the support. Because I imagine a lot of those, like, when you purchase an AC, I'm sure that that's not like the AC company that has that. There's just AC technicians that they, like, contract. Correct. That's exactly right. Yeah, so until there's something like that in the world, like an arcade contracting company that just takes care of that stuff, I don't know if it's really in the cards for manufacturers. That's a really big thing to have all over the country within driving distance to then go and service people's stuff. Yeah, I know those exist, but I think initially most distributors are going to try and help you over the phone, and then if that doesn't work and you can't talk someone through it, then they're going to have to either come out themselves or find someone to help you. Didn't Laura Fraley's husband, Clark, do that, Sarah? Didn't he go around and help service games? I think that's his job, isn't it? Yeah, but I mean... Or just for some kind of arcade company. But he's done it for some of the big pinball companies, I think, you know, through the discretion of distributors to go out there and help out. Yeah, I know you can have people come to your door, but I think that's a last resort for a lot of distributors. I think some of the reason why it's now starting to really get some airtime, and it really has sort of blown up the last couple of weeks, I think it's because the response that people are presuming now that's coming from the manufacturers is, well it has been I guess, well that's just a normal part of pinball machines. The ball is wild and the ball creates dimples and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I think that because that's right now the default policy, people are feeling a little bit angst that they're not, that the manufacturers aren't taking these problems seriously and that the fix is not enough to, you know, I guess solve the problem. You know what I mean? And that there's becoming a real disconnect between what people are expecting needs to be resolved as to what companies' policies are. Am I getting that right or wrong? What do you think? No, I think that that's right. And it's also the fact also what's complicating things is the way that people are handling these things. Because a lot of the time it's I have an issue with my game and I'm going to go on Facebook and put the company on blast before I even talk to them. What? That never happens in pinball. Yeah, not on Pinside either. But so it's like I mean, I can definitely see how that would really piss me off as a pinball company. The first time you're hearing about this stuff is a person who's throwing it out online so he can get everyone riled up and pissed off and on his side. And then, you know, instead of just being like, if you would have just told us, we would have taken care of this for you, but here you are making a huge fuss over nothing because you're not following the proper channels. So it's like, I can see how that would get really old because you see that all the time in various pinball groups. It's just people being like, yeah, I opened my new inbox game and the flipper wasn't working right. Or something else, like it was a loose connector or something like that. It's like, if you just call them and tell them what's wrong, they can probably tell you how to fix it. It's not a big deal, but the instinct seems to be, let's go online and get some outrage going. I think you've also got the internet clock as well that's running.
    21:41
    24 hours on the internet is 24 days in real world. So these companies are investigating and I think that they put out there, they're saying, yep, we acknowledge that there's an issue, we're now investigating it. And 24 hours goes by and people go, they're hiding, they're covering things up because I haven't got a response straight away. And this is what you've got to, again, I'm going into business mind as well, but when you then come out there with an actual policy, that policy is effectively a legal document. It's legal. So it's not like a company can say, all right, yep, we're going to replace everything. It's actually got to be a document, a point in time that says from now forward, this is our policy. So that stuff doesn't take 24 hours, 48 hours. That takes time for them to say, first of all, we've got to actually understand how this problem came to be. Two, we've got to provide a remedy that's going to be satisfying everybody. And then three, we've actually got to have an official policy that states what's happened previously and the rectification for that and what's going to happen in the future. That's not complicated, guys. That's a great point, Marty. I mean, coming from healthcare where nothing happens, you know, until it goes through seven committees and, you know, different policies and that sort of thing, you're absolutely right. And the fact that pinball companies can react and come up with a solution as quickly as they do is actually relatively impressive.
    23:20
    Yeah, and people don't understand how the business works. They just think that just anything, they think that they, just like the whole, oh, why hasn't Stern done an LCD yet? Jack's been doing it. It's like, well, because they are testing it and making sure it was right the first time. And it's the same thing they're doing now. They're trying to figure out why this is happening. And until they figure out exactly what happened and how they can fix it, then it would be irresponsible for them to just jump out there and say, we're going to do this, we're going to do this, and then find out later that, oh, it didn't come from that and it was internal or it came from the manufacturer. So it's like, why throw your neck out there to get cut off if you don't know what the issue is? I mean, the same thing happened with the ghosting stuff. You know, everyone was flipping out and it just ended up being a bad batch of play fields. It's like, well, then they have to go, okay, we had this batch, who got these batches? So then they know exactly who, mostly that the people who are affected by that. So then they can look and see how many people that affected. So then they can decide if it's going to be a big deal or a small deal. Well, it's just, well, we'll help these few people. But at whole, this isn't a really big problem at all. Like, it's only a small percentage of games that went out, and, you know, it's like we can help those. But, I mean, if this ends up being a widespread, like, they've got a couple batches of play fields that just end up being messed up. Like, that stuff takes time to figure out how you react to this stuff because, like always, you only get one shot at it. So if they mess it up, then it's going to get way worse. And to his point, looking at our playfield at our house, as I said, it's extremely subtle. And the pictures I've seen on Pinside are pretty extreme. So I don't think it's every machine they're sending out. And the pictures that you see are from maybe a small percentage of games. It's hard to say. Yeah. And then I think you've added, like I talked about the three steps forward. There's actually a fourth step in all of that is. And they've got to find, obviously, where the cause of it is. and what you've got to remember really is that Jersy Jack assemble these machines. They don't actually manufacture the parts. The wiring's not theirs, the harnesses aren't theirs, the lights aren't theirs, the enclosures aren't theirs, the playfills aren't theirs. The cabin is not theirs. They get all that stuff manufactured and it comes in batches. So they've also got to determine which batch and if one batch or whether it's all batches. Then they've actually got to find the supplier. So there's a whole other layer here as well is who's going to pay for this mistake? Now, we as pinball people, we say, oh, fuck, that's Jersie Jack. Jersie Jack needs to pay for this. They need, and Jersie Jack's like, well, hang on, we've actually got a supplier. And it was whoever supplied the wood, whoever did the clear, whoever did the art, whoever it is that's actually caused this problem, And if they're at fault, they're the ones who've actually got to pay for this. And you're talking lawyers as well that they've got to serve them a notice that says, you've caused this, you pay for it, here's what it's going to cost. So they now also need to determine what's the cost. If they've determined, let's say, it's a batch, this batch of machines, there was 500 of them. So therefore, it's going to cost us, let's say, $1,000 to fix every one of these machines now. So they've then got to send an invoice to this company that says, you're responsible for this, so you've got to pay $500,000 to fix these. That company's then got to say, okay, we've now got to go to our insurance company and we've got to lodge a claim with them so they can pay us to be able to pay Jersey Jack to have these things fixed. Do you understand how complicated this is and therefore how time consuming this can be? Yeah, exactly. And people don't, they're emotional. They don't think about any of this stuff. They're just like, oh, my precious machine has issues. I need to flip out about this because it needs to be fixed right now. And I get that. I get that because, you know, I'll put the pins in this as well, right? You just got your Wonka machine. And from what I can tell, you love your Wonka machine and you're playing your Wonka machine a lot. Am I right? Sure. Right? So let's say you're in the middle of this where every night you're playing your Wonka machine for four or five hours a day because you love it that much. And then all of a sudden you get a chipping on your play field and you think, shit, I now can't play this machine at the moment, which I've been playing five hours a day. Therefore, I don't have much of that same enjoyment in my life. Something's got to be done. And then as I said before, internet time, every 24 hours, that's time you should be playing this thing of joy. I think that's what's really causing the grief here is that people should be having fun and this issue is stopping people from having fun. Yeah, I wonder if the solution is, I mean if you look at the problems, I don't know if the solution is just not clear coding that area and just leaving an X amount of part of wood around where all the posts go so that that issue doesn't happen. or something along those lines where it's a clear section so that if there is anything like that, it's not visible. I mean, because it seems that this is just a widespread across all manufacturers that use this playfield, these playfields, which I believe, I think American uses them too, so it's like they seem to make playfields for everybody. So I don't know. Well, then they should get their shit together. Yeah, definitely. I think that's the summary, right? Yeah. You know, I'm not, I'm not, I, whenever something goes wrong with my machine, I totally get that you're OCD and it drives you crazy and it's, you think about it all the time until it's fixed.
    28:59
    People who own pinball machines, a lot of collectors are very anal about their stuff and if there's anything wrong with it at all, it triggers them and they want it fixed and they want it fixed now. But for me, this issue has never really raised that sort of alarm bell. Maybe it should, but I haven't really seen what can happen if that stuff chips. You know, for me, if a light is out or if a, you know, the code is not right in a certain mode or something, that's way more important to me than this. But I know it the drama du jour so I be interested to see what happens with it and whether my machine has any issues in the long term Long term yeah I don know I mean look I know someone that actually had chipping on their Wizard of Oz They had a 75th anniversary and it started as a little chip. And this was just up on the top right play field where the house spins around. And after a couple of plays after that, big chunks started chipping off as well. Now, and that's a big problem because that whole, well, it's less of a problem, I guess, in that it's only a small little upper play field that needs to be replaced. But I think that's what people are fearful of now is, and I said this before, is that this problem which is small right now, if left unchecked, could become a big problem. And people now in their mind, and maybe it's a bit of hysteria, I would say it's a bit of hysteria, are now thinking the worst that this could happen to their machine. Yeah, and I've seen, I mean, speaking of, like, you're talking about Wizard of Oz, I've seen machines that the entire bumper area was wood because it started chipping there, and I've seen the World's Fair balloon area in the bottom left drain also be completely, like, no clear down-to-the-wood areas. Once something starts, it just tends to not stop. All right, now I'm getting a little paranoid.
    30:56
    Well, you know, what's next on the list? So my last point on all of it, sorry to get you all angsty, is why did this not happen in the 70s, 80s and 90s and why is it happening now? I think that's also, I think, the response of people happening is that they've had to change the clear coat from what it used to be. What I was told from other people is that the clear coat, like the reason why you see Sonic games that have like pristine play fields and they're like 30, 40 years old or whatever, is because back in the day they used highly toxic, really heavy games. What are you going to say about that? Clear coat, so they're not allowed, it's illegal to use that now. Oh shit, alright, alright. The really heavy duty clear coats, you can't use them anymore, so. Yeah, I mean this has only been an issue, this has only been a real issue lately in terms of like just being out there as a huge topic. So I wonder when that clear coat changed over to the new stuff and if there are issues before that or after that or when this actually started. Because now that people are talking about it, they're looking back at their hobbits and their pirates and they're seeing that there are issues there as well. So when did it start? I don't know. Yeah, and the people who think that this is something that should be easily detected at the factory, I don't think that this is something that's a Q&A issue. That the forming of the clear coat probably doesn't happen until after it's been tightened for a while, and then it starts moving.
    32:39
    It's going to happen after the game has been boxed and has been shipped. Putting it together, you're not going to see that. So it's like, there's really nothing really they could do when these games went out. Because probably as far as they're concerned, when they looked at the games, they were actually fine because the Bladeshold hadn't displaced at that point. So it's a really shitty situation that they're in. They'll figure something out, and hopefully it'll just be before our Wonka falls to shit.
    33:06
    I mean, let's be real, because if that happens, I'm going to blow a gasket. Okay. Jack, Jen, everybody over there. I'm going to get in my car. It is going to get ugly.
    33:20
    We are not going to have a happy camper over here. So let's just hope that it's minor issues. That's what we're going to say. We're going to be very optimistic here, Marty. Yeah, good. I think you should. I don't think you've got a problem at all. No, it's not a problem. Like, what's this? The only problem is that Joe just took the freaking GC on our Walmart. No, he didn't. He took the number one score, but not GC. Okay, well, the only problem is that Dr. Pinn still has the fucking GC. You might as well say that. It's because Dr. Pinn has the GC. No, you can square on head to head. Oh, all right, cool. And, yeah, that's a big problem. That's a big, big problem. You know, have you ever seen Joe play pinball, Marty? Yes, I have. He has his way with these machines. He beats the shit out of these machines. His slap saves are like dramatic. I threatened him. He gets like three warnings. It's like tilt warnings, right? Okay, because it's like the Mrs. Pin warning. Like the first time I'm like, Joe, you better simmer your shit down, buddy, because that pinball machine costs more than your life is worth. So let's just simmer it, okay? That's like the nice warning, believe it or not. This is the first time I've heard this. In my head, this is what I'm thinking. Then I'm sitting at a table, I'm watching him, and the walk-in machine shifts about seven inches. What? I did not do that. And then Leslie's going, Joe, Joe, stop hitting it. It's hitting so hard. Oh my God. And I'm sitting there and I'm going, if this guy starts beating up my machine anymore, I'm going to beat him up. Wow, such fake news going on right now.
    35:00
    This is so entertaining. I mean, I'm sorry. I know. You should have seen it. People will believe you, though, and they're like, see, I knew it. No, no, no. Joe doesn't necessarily beat them up, per se, but I will say that at Hershey Park today, we had to physically move the Star Trek machine, like, no, Star Wars, sorry, Star Wars machine, a full five feet, and I'm not exaggerating, forward because it had gotten shoved so far back because of all the shit that was going on with the, you know, the like banging and the nudging and the tilting and all this other shit. I was just done. I was like, you pull that shit on my Wonka, buddy. To be fair, this doctor was doing that on that Star Wars too. Oh yeah, oh no, no, no. His other friend who we met today also did multiple death saves, which I did not. I'm okay with that being done on not my machine, right?
    36:01
    Christian was like, I was like, listen, you are not taking the tilt bob out of this shit. This thing was way too fucking expensive. You are putting two tilt bobs in that shit and they're going to bang up next to each other. Because I swear to God, if you wreck this machine being aggressive, I'm going to end your life. And he even put three warnings on this thing, too, per ball. Oh, that is about to change. Dude, is this the only machine where there are three tilts per game on default? So every ball. It's only two per game. Per game? Yeah, that's all Jersie Jack. Or warnings, I should say. Yeah, all Jersie Jack games. Interesting. That's interesting. It doesn't go by the ball? No, it's per game. It's per game. Not awesome. You better watch. That's a Keith Johnson thing. That's the way he wants the Pinball machines set. So it's been that way since Wizard of Oz. What if? Yeah, look, I have seen him play, and I will say his play style is enthusiastic, I think is a nice way of putting it.
    37:07
    Marty, we are not nice people. Oh, I know, I've met you. So, no, that is not true. You are lovely people. But, I know what you mean. There's a bit of movement going on with the machine, which, you know, borderline, shall we say. Listen, all I have to say is that Joe started playing Wonka and he goes, do you have those slidey things on the bottom of this machine? And I was like, er, what are you talking about, Willis? To be fair, I was recommending that they should get rubber feet because they have wooden floors.
    37:47
    There's felt pads on there. Don't beat the shit out of my machine. They'll be fine. Yeah, but the felt pads mean you can easily move it, which is not what you want. Plus, the doctor put training for Pimberg, and he needs rubber feet to get used to rubber feet. Yeah, so I was having Joe teach me how to drop catch on Attack from Mars, and I'm getting, I think... And loop pass. And loop pass, that's right. Yeah, okay. Just give me some one-on-one lessons. I was given jokes too.
    38:18
    We're like dying, Chris is crying. Here's my advice to you guys. Turn your tilt as sensitive as they can. Sorry, never Lemire comes to visit. For you, you need it too. It should just be that way to train on. Yeah, and I only move the machines up to where the tilts are. Right, right. But the second part to that is also make sure that the legs are all the way up so there's not a lot of movement with the machine. And now, I do that on my machines and people sort of like move and there's a tilt. But this is also for your benefit, Dr. Pinn, because the more you can control a game with the subtlest of nudges is going to put you in better standing for Pimberg. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. It's knowing how hard to nudge and not get a warning is, I think, pretty clutch. So if you play on games that have soft tilts, then you go play any kind of professional tournament and you're going to be tilting nonstop. Well, then you clean the glass and you're going to tilt, right? That's true. Yep. Clean the glass. It's a plunge and tilt. A plunge and tilt. That happens to me. Some of the people like that. But you can't plunge it like it's Hercules. That's right. Well, yeah. Okay, so that was a little bit different. Okay, that thing was like a fucking tennis ball. Cue ball. It was. It was actually a cue ball. Yeah, I mean, you really have to yank on that thing to... That's what she said.
    40:00
    Strong. That was good. Come on, where's the sounder, Martin? There you go. Boom, shit. There you go. Hey, Martin, get your shit together. You're in the future, you can be that slow if you're in the future. I know.
    40:16
    I'll edit it back in time so it actually seems more appropriate. Nice. So, let's move on. Let's talk about Dreads Pinball, right? Oh boy. Yeah. I don't think I've managed to play Big Lebowski at all. Honestly. So we played it, we played it once. We played like one or two balls on the version at TPF. We broke it. Yeah, it broke right after we played it. No, I think we broke it. You probably did. I'm pretty sure. Because you guys were too violent on the machine? No, I put it up a ramp and basically that just did it in. Which, by the way, is scary to me that people are playing these games and if they break, who knows if they can get parts for them and fix these games that are out there now. Man, Big Lebowski is so amazing though. I'm telling you, that is the best theme. It's so badass. The game looks amazing. I really can't say if it's fun to play, but it looks like it should be fun to play. It's fun to play. And, oh, God, it's like tragic. It hurts me. It is a fun game. There's no doubt about it. It is good. So, you know, Dutch did put out, we sort of had alluded to it, but I'll read out their email that they sent out to everybody.
    41:30
    So this is post-settlement. Sid, in the last episode, I informed you on the settlement I've reached with our former manufacturer and two weeks ago we managed to complete the settlement. It means the lawsuit is off the table, games and parts that are in the warehouse are now ours and also fully paid for. With this first round of financing we are now ready to get things up and again to start building games and I'm very happy with the trust of CoinTaker and some of my very close friends and family who made this possible.
    41:53
    Due to the holiday, three weeks ARO, we limited access to the warehouse, managed to get the games out and their shipping and blah, blah, blah. And we've actually just seen this week that machines have now arrived in Australia. I saw three in a picture. So they are now out there. Everybody's getting the machines. We talked about this. The other thing they also talked about was license because people always say, oh, you know, the license expired doesn't mean you can't make any more. And they did confirm that they've got the license till December 31st, 2020, which is good. So now it's time for them to just get manufacturing and get these machines out. And like you, I've played it. It's fun. It's not a complicated game, but it is good fun to play. And I want to see them at people's homes and I want to see them on site, which I don't think we all see here. But, you know, there was one at Sunshine Laundromat. That's where I got to play it. Yeah. And in fact, it seems that they've done right when it comes to the games that have arrived for customers and were true to their word that they said that before they sent out games, They were opening them all, testing them, making sure they were good, repackaging them and sending them out so that they didn't have issues. And I've seen tons of posts all over Facebook of people getting their Lebowski's and loving it and them being fine. So that's a good step in the right direction. I'm super psyched. Go to them. Let's do it. Yeah, let's get what's happening. And then let's get some more machines out there, Dutch Pinball. Like, if that's your first machine and it's a good machine, let's see what else they can do. Let's get this stuff done. Don't be done. Honestly, let's do it. Yes! Goonies! Oh no! I know how you feel about that, Marty. Yeah, I know you do. Zip it, Joe.
    43:35
    That's behavior. I'm going to get kicked out. Go see the Joe Carr. I'll sleep under Dalton. That's right. Oh, that's great. It's not Dalton, it's Monica. It's blue. No, I hope that whatever they do in the future is smooth and they don't get into any drama at all with the next release, if they have a next release. It's just one constant in the universe of Pimball, it's that the drama is constant. I know. Well, and I think, let's face it, they have now got a very long list of learnings that they will try to avoid next time around. I'm assuming. Yeah, because this is like two years in the making, isn't it?
    44:22
    Almost. Has it been long? Yeah. From when they stopped getting machines out. Yeah, I think it's probably been about two years. Yeah, because this was like right when we started the podcast. All of this was going down. That's crazy. But I guess they extended the license, which means that now they're looking to obviously make more machines. And make parts, which is the most important part. Because I believe they're all Williams parts, so unless it's game-specific, you should still be able to get parts, like, unless you're getting parts for, like, the carpet or the bowling thing. Those are, you know, game-specific, but all the other stuff, I believe, is all Williams, so that stuff should be out there to replace. Well they do say in the next weeks we'll be busy preparing everything for production including arranging the production facility, counting parts, putting all the parts in the inventory system, checking the assembly instructions, sorting out the tools. We will start small and we will expand over time to build more games. We have a couple of locations in mind where we want to restart our business. We still have to decide which location is best and we hope to get this figured out this week or next week. So, you know, weren't they going to be using Zytec to manufacture? Are they not going to use them now? Are they going to do it themselves?
    45:40
    I think I've heard that. Yeah. Yeah, they were doing it in China, right? Yeah. That was like how all this started. How all the lawsuits and stuff started was because they, something with the parts and the... No, I think Zytec was creating it and then their lawsuit with ARA, which is, I guess, another Another company, right, that was initially creating the game.
    46:05
    But Zitek was part of it too. Yeah, they started manufacturing, but they had to put that on hold because of the lawsuit with ARA. Am I right, Aaron? Am I right about that? Yeah. Yep, that's right. And ARA, I'm sorry, Zitek did actually build a couple of machines. People got to play them to test to see whether the quality was up there, and apparently it was. So, again, what that doesn't mean now is where are they producing these new machines and are they going to still use Zyrtec? That's what I don't know. Right. Time will tell. Is this the only machine that shipped with something as random as a carpet to go underneath the machine? I mean, that was a pretty cool touch. Did that start with all the other games that they shipped out? I think so. I don't know. I believe the original ones that went out came with carpets. That was neat. Freaking awesome. Yeah, right? To put underneath the machine. I mean, that's a really... You know what that is? It's classy. That is classy. Pinball class right there. It's classy. Good enough. Yeah, it's justified. Like, seriously. You should come with, like, a drink. White Russians? Yeah. Exactly.
    47:17
    Nothing stopping them from doing that. Have you guys listened to the next in the Roger Sharp series of Coast to Coast Pinball podcasts? No, that just came out yesterday. Yeah, that just came out. The first one was fantastic and I think this is such a cool thing that Nate and Roger are doing. Just to hear these people that you've never heard before and get their background a little bit is awesome. Yeah, well the next one for everybody is with Sam Stern. He's the founder of Stern. Is that Gary Stern? Yes, it is. And that's where the name The Sam System comes from.
    47:55
    There you go. Good morning. I know. I don't know who Spike is in their family. Spike's third? It's the dog, yeah. It's the dog, John Garrett. Oh, yeah, and Spike too because, you know, dogs don't last as long so they call him.
    48:11
    They're almost the Spike three, so. So, anyway, go and have a listen to that, guys. It is a great episode. It's really, it starts with Nate talking to Roger about the interview and what it was like and sort of setting the scene and then they go to the interview so definitely check that one out. Let's talk about Scott Dinesi, our boy Scott Dinesi. Scott. We love him. We love Scott. He's awesome. I sort of said that he was there at Pinball, I don't know, all of a sudden he was there. I was just walking along and I went, I sort of just walked past this person and I went, hang on, there's freaking Scott Dinesi. I went, mate, what are you doing here? He's like, ah, you know, just thought I'd check things out. That's what he does. He hopped in the car, drove nine hours and decides to do that two days in a row and, you know, come to Pimberk. He just integrates and hangs out with just everyone there. He was driving around the Pins Stadium robot that was there and just such a good, down-to-earth, solid dude. He is great. Just so easy to talk to as well. But he's just announced that there is an expanded edition of the album Total Nuclear Annihilation, Which I don't know whether you know, but it is my go-to music that I have in my headphones when I play pinball. I had a chat with him and I showed him my iPhone and I said, look, this is what I'm playing. He was like, yeah, okay, that's kind of cool. And I was trying to explain to him the best thing about the TNA music is that it is music and it is sound, but there's nothing that really you would either sing along to or anything that sort of really leaps out to take you away from focusing on Pimball. It's just a really good soundscape that you can listen to. So people, I recommend this is the Total Nuclear Annihilation on headphones when you're playing Pimball. You will thank me for it.
    50:03
    Have you ever played that app, Pinnout? No. It's a Pimball app that has all the same, like very similar music.
    50:13
    And that'd be cool if that was an album. It's a Pinball app that came out a couple years ago. It's really awesome, you should check it out. If you like Pinball, it's free, download it, it's awesome.
    50:26
    I'm searching right now, PINOUT. Yeah, and it has all the same, very much like TNA. And with each level it changes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I do have this one. It's great. It's got kind of like Tron type graphics. Yeah. I like that one. The music has been super cool. What I loved about this album, so besides the fact that it's all been remastered again, so I think this will be the second time it's been remastered, there's an additional track, but what I love is the main track that we have is actually called Beep Gate. I think it's something like that. Is that right? Beep Gate? Beep Gate, yeah. Do you know what that is? Like, what is that? Yes, I do. So when it got first remastered, people were stating that the beep that you knew when the track first starts up wasn't quite as prominent as it used to be in the original version. And people were up and armed going, oh, what's happened to the beep? The beep's not there. So I'd say with this remastering, the beep might be back, is what I'm saying. What a good guy. Put the beep back. He's a people pleaser. That's right. Gotta have the beep. There it is, Beep Gate Reprise is what it's called, so it's hilarious. Anyway, good on you Scott, you didn't have to do anything with this music but you have, so just get your next machine out please.
    51:53
    It's the guys in Pinball who are so dedicated to their games like Lyman and Scott that just keep working on them even when most people think that they're pretty much perfect. That's all they think about. They're just obsessed with this stuff and we benefit from that. Right. So, that's awesome.
    52:13
    Houdini. Have you guys played Houdini? I have, yes. Yeah, we had a Houdini for a few months, right? Joe Fox lent us his. Yep. Good old Joe. And we had it in our basement for a while. We played the heck out of it. It's a great game. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. And I got to play that a couple of weeks ago. We mentioned in a podcast recently and up in Brisbane I got to play it again and just, you know, it's not the easiest machine to play and the rules are deep and not so simple. Not user friendly. No, not user friendly. Dude, I'm sorry. All three of you are wrong. This game sucks. What? I'm sorry. Really? Like, really, it is just not fun. You didn't have any fun with it at all? No. Oh, that's harsh. Dude, okay, so my biggest complaint about Houdini, well, I will say, though, that the machine looks awesome. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's really cool looking. The cabinet is awesome. All the cool toys and the pop bumpers are super cool. What about the call-outs, the Australian jailing call-outs? Oh, my gosh. Those, man, I feel like somebody should get, like, a Grammy for those. Maybe it should be more like a Tony Award because that was, like, Broadway-level performance. Oh, don't be like that.
    53:35
    I don't even have to hear that. There's no Houdini's to play, so I haven't even heard that. Dude, go on YouTube. Come on. I'm not going to hear it in flesh. It's going to be organic. Oh, it's so good. So was it bizarre for you? Because you obviously have spoken to me many times to hear my voice in a people machine. Do you remember when that first happened? We got the update and were we the first person to actually show you that sound clip? Yes, you were. I recorded it and I sent it to you guys on Facebook Messenger so you could hear it. It was such a moment in my life. It was. Very true. But anyways, the game itself, my biggest complaint is that there's no fluidity. It is so freaking, it's like a stall ball game. And any time you hit something or you hit a mode or you start a mode, there's like talking. There's so much talking. Like the Houdini guy comes up on the screen. You can't just play the freaking game. Like I want to like hit the flipper. You can't even. It's just crazy. Even if you turn that off in the settings, you can turn that down or turn it off or something. Oh, my God. Just shut up and let me play Pinball.
    54:48
    But he's telling you what to do. Don't you want to know what to do? Dude, I can't do it when somebody tells me this. You know this based on my performance today. So, I mean, like... You did really good on Wonka, but that's some good Wonka. Well, I can hit the super secret skill shot. She's the only one here tonight who hit the super secret skill shot. Twice on Wonka. I haven't tried. Uh-huh. I like the story, Jo. It's because he's scared, Marty. He's scared. You've got to keep the host happy. That's right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so anyway, so Houdini, yeah, I don't know. It's not my favorite. It really isn't. But I don't need, like, the deep, crazy rule set of pinball that you better players need, and I can understand how you guys might like it, but for me, for somebody who's just walking into a place, that game would stink.
    55:39
    My main issue with the game is that there's not enough of them. Yeah. It sucks there's none to play anywhere.
    55:46
    Well, production has now finished. Sad Panda. Sad. So that's what they stated is that production has now finished and if you want to get one, talk to your distributor now and they said available for special pricing. So I don't know what that means but, you know, that's what's happening. The picture is gone. It is done. So, yeah, look, I'm going to add to that and it was a conversation I was having in the last 24 hours about, you know, What makes a good pinball machine? And I was bringing up the whole connection to the pinball machine thing again. But the other thing I sort of elaborated on was how timing is really important in a machine. And it'll talk to what you were just talking about with Houdini. Oh God, I will mention Star Trek one more time. But it was in the context of Jurassic Park as well. I was talking about timing. Timing and how a machine feeds information to you by the light show or the sound effects. And I was using the example of Star Tripping. When you nail a ramp, by the time you hit the start of the ramp and by the time it comes back to your flipper, the choreography is so perfect that you can start flipping away having fed that amount of information for two seconds because it knows it's going to be two seconds and you get into the rhythm of the game and you stay in that world of the machine because it's feeding that information timed so perfectly that you can look up, you can look down, you can hear things, you can hear call outs, you can see light shows and you can get on with your game. And I think that's what you're saying is the problem with Houdini is that when you start a mode, it's like it stops. It starts telling you what to do. And in your mind, you're thinking, no, that's not the rules of pinball. The rules of pinball are two seconds, tell me what I need to do and then done and feed me what I need to do as I'm playing the game. If I need to do a right orbit, highlight the right orbit and say, shoot the right orbit. Once I've done that, tell me what I've got to do with the next shot, but do it during the game as opposed to stopping for 10 seconds saying, right, in this mode, you need to shoot the right orbit. Then you've got to shoot the ramp. Then you've got to shoot the pops. Then you've got to shoot it back into the scoop. Now go. Right. Well, I'd say that those two games are probably on the opposite sides of the spectrum, whereas Houdini... Houdini, because a lot of people complain all the time about how games don't give you the information you need of what you're supposed to do. So Houdini takes that to the next level and says, I'm going to give you everything that you want, and then people aren't, you know, they don't want that kind of time. But also you look at Star Trek, and Star Trek's been heavily criticized by just being shoot the flashing light and that there's really nothing else out there. And also, I mean, when you start modes on Star Trek, it pauses for a while in either of the two start locations. So it's like, I don't know what that, you know, obviously those, I think that those two are like very different sides of the spectrum because I think that the criticisms of Star Trek, I think, are very valid is that it is just shoot the flashing light. Like, there's not, the modes don't mean anything, really. I'm saving the Enterprise, but I'm just hitting shots that have flashy lights. So it like there no I don know like you don there no integration or just like you don feel thematic to any of the specific modes you playing You just hitting the arrows It very transforming I think more so level 2 and level 3 modes, I think it is more integrated. I think the level 1 modes without the away missions are very much random light, hit it. Yeah, but level 2s are the same thing. They have a different animation on the screen and there's still just a lit arrow that you hit. So it's like, there's not, I don't think it changes that. But it's not randomized as much. I feel like it is tough to know exactly how much information to give and in what way to give it. I think games like Theater of Magic were really nice because as you were playing the modes, it would tell you where to shoot and the call outs and the lights would be flashing. You wouldn't have to look up at an LCD screen and figure it out or decipher it. But I feel like with the new displays and new machines, there's so many ways to give you information that they're still trying to feel out what the best way is to do it. But some of the older machines, you know exactly where you need to shoot just from the call-outs and the flashing lights. And I don't see why you need anything more than that. You certainly don't need to stop the ball. Yeah, I would just like to say that in Houdini, I could probably go to the bathroom for the time that they fully explain the mode. And that happening like 27 times a game is just a little much. Wow, so you're really good. 27 modes, that's a lot. She's really good. I don't want to brag, but I'm like number 7620 in the world.
    61:06
    Well, so here's what's really disappointing is the mode that I got was literally shoot the key target. That's all I have to say. Shoot the key target, you hit the key target, that's it, you hit the key target and it's like, yeah, thank you. But can't you just hit the double button? You can hit both flipper buttons and you've got to hold them down, yeah. You've got to hold them down, but it still doesn't let you just completely get rid of it. And you can turn it down in settings too, which we tried. And it still was just like, wah-wah, wah-wah, wah-wah. Like by the time they finished the explanation and I had gone to the bathroom and I came back. Made a sandwich. I had, yeah, essentially I had forgotten my name and I didn't even know what ball I was on.
    61:53
    I do think some of the LCD screens where they, like the newer CERNs where they show you where to shoot and they give you a little tutorial when the game is not being played. That's a nice, happy medium. That's cool. Yeah, yeah. Not during the middle of the game. Right. But I mean, isn't that like objectively kind of like a perfect system where either you can get the information you need or you can choose to skip it? Isn't that the best of both worlds, kind of? It is, but you can't fully skip it, and that was my biggest complaint, was that in Houdini, you just couldn't, like, even if you double-flipped, but... I think you could skip a lot of it, but you were double-flipping quite a bit, and that was annoying. And the mode where, you know, you would be every, it seems like everything you hit, which, listen, you know me, I'm not getting a lot of important stuff, But I have to say that even if I'm getting these messages that often that I'm annoyed by it and I don't want to play the game, then clearly it's a problem. Yeah. You know I'm not hitting like real hard shots, Joe Lemire? I don't know. I apparently were, Brandon, pretend I didn't see that one game you put up.
    62:59
    I mean, you cracked a million, I think, on that game. It was pretty good. No, I did not. I'm pretty sure you did. It was at least 500-something. I know that. I think it was like 700. 700, so you can forgive me. My best score on Wonka is like 1.2. Which is a very good score. Yeah, which is a very good score. So she just invalidated all of her complaints. Because she doesn't suck at Pinball. Dude, that game took me like 400 games of getting 25 points each other. It all adds up. It only takes one ball, sir. That's right. It only takes one ball. Julie Dorses. Yeah, yeah, but it's better if you've got six.
    63:40
    Anyway, sorry, we digressed. Anyway, it's time full. That is amazing, you guys have upgraded your sound system. I totally just did the most amazing dance ever to that. He's so jazzy. And he completely skipped over the Wonka code. Yeah, because I just realised it. It was like, it's in my show notes, Wonka code 1.13 I think it is, and there's really one line of code. Yes, nothing. Update your Wonka machine, that's really what it is. So, that's what happened. Anyway, so, two pieces of news that I saw on social media watch, and not even necessarily social media, but actual out there in the media. Yeah. There's actually, and I do recommend, it's been linked everywhere. I'll link it as well. But effectively, Paul Jones, who's one of Australia's all-time greatest players, was on TV, like a morning breakfast show.
    64:50
    And it's true. And they went into his house. And the person that, it was actually really quite an interesting, I guess, article, I guess I'd call it, is because the person that is interviewing him or is actually in his house is a guy called Jonathan Coleman or Jono. And I grew up with this guy. I'm not going to say 70s or 80s, but pick one of those decades.
    65:15
    And he's actually really quite a famous guy. But in this article, he's trying to be a little bit crazy and wacky. And Paul Jones, who I've said before, he's such a nice guy. He was just going along with it, talking about how pinball is a resurgence and it's skill-based and all that kind of stuff. It's a great article and also I love the fact that, again, there's more and more pinball making, and this is mainstream media, I think is a good thing for pinball.
    65:47
    Yeah, totally. I don't know if it's just that we're in the hobby and we see all these articles and these news pieces, but it seems like there's a lot more of them lately. So maybe that speaks to the fact that Pinball is in a resurgence, but it's good to see them. And a lot of people that we know are being featured, like Ron Hallett had a nice piece. Yeah, that was so nice. That was really nice. And it doesn't seem like pinball is being put out there as this random hobby that very few people play. It's being treated as more of a mainstream thing now, which is nice. It's totally what the cool kids do. That's right. Well, I would say the angle of this article is, oh my god, did you know that pinball is still a thing? And the host, the Jonathan Coleman, actually does sing Pinball Wizard? Oh no. So get into it. And so the other piece of news that was on social media watch, probably not as joyful, I guess. And that is that machines have been stolen from someone's house. No. Just one? Two. Adam's family and an original Playboy.
    67:32
    I don't know if I would have chosen those pinball machines to steal. So, I mean, I feel very badly legitimately for the people who got their pinball machines stolen, so that's terrible.
    67:44
    But, I mean, maybe I would have gone for Adam's family. Adam's family has a high resale value. But, honestly, that is a huge fear of mine, man. One of the things that kind of allays my fear that my pins are going to get stolen is that it's not easy to move a pinball machine. Yeah, how do you steal a pinball machine? How much does this person's neighbors hate him, whoever this was stolen from? How do you not notice people just dragging out of pinball machines that clearly don't live there?
    68:13
    I don't know. We're pretty easy to drive around our house. Nobody would notice. Well, but you don't live in civilization. We do live in our country. Hey. Amish country. Rich Amish country. Watch it. You should see the mansions out here, man. It's ridiculous. No. If you were walking around your neighborhood and you, well, probably not you because you know pinball, But if you were just walking past somebody's house that you didn't even know and you saw them moving a refrigerator out of their house, would you stop and think, hmm, are they stealing that refrigerator? No. I feel like, man, I feel sorry for them to have to carry that frigging refrigerator. And that's the same thing I'd say if somebody was moving a pinball machine, which makes it even weirder that they were able to steal it. You know, it's not like it's a TV. TVs these days are so thin in life that you could run with one. A pinball machine weighs like 400 pounds. Yeah, I mean, I guess it just goes to say of how disconnected we are as a society now because of the fact that neighbors don't even know who lives next to them. So they see a random person grabbing a pinball machine and go, oh, that must be who lives there because we don't know who actually lives there.
    69:26
    But that's exactly right. So because the example of my house, I live in inner city Melbourne and my house is effectively, it's a townhouse, I think it's a condominium, I think what you call it over there. And so I don't really know my neighbours all that well, they don't know me. I've been here 20 years and the neighbour next to me, I would speak to her probably twice a year, the people across the road maybe once a month. And people two doors down on either side, I would speak to once every two, three years, right? So they don't know me. And my driveway backs right onto the street. It's pretty built up the area. And I've had machines, you know, being moved in and out all the time. And people walk past. It's quite a high, you know, foot traffic area. People walk past, see me moving a pinball machine and just keep walking on. Now, that could be me. It could be someone stealing my machine. Nobody questions it. Yeah.
    70:31
    I guess you've got to get more in with your neighbors. Just in case if you see any Pinball machine things happening and you don't see this beautiful face, please tell somebody.
    70:44
    Yeah, I mean, you have to have a special kind of criminal and a lot of time to actually come in. And it's not like you're stealing a diamond ring from a jewelry case where you can smash and grab and run. You've got to have your whole toolkit to get these things out. What I want to know is, did this person bring a ratchet? Did he take off the legs? Did he take off the head? Did he have a plastic layer? Like, what did he put these things in? Anne, you'd think that this would be a pretty easy thing to trace in terms of, like, reselling it after you steal it? That's true. I feel like it would be a pretty easy thing to trace. Maybe. I mean, a lot of Adam's family comes up, Playboy's come up every once in a while. I think probably the biggest crime of this article is the fact that they're saying Adam's family and Playboy are worth $20,000 collectively. Oof. Oof. Man. Maybe in Australia. Not even. The media has zero clue of what anything pinball related is. Well, maybe this person said, well, you know, they are worth $20,000 insurance company. Exactly. Yeah. These were fortune, man. Playboy, it's vintage, rare. Look at this. I can show you a listing of a Playboy going for $8,000 and I can show you a listing of an Addams Family going for $15,000, therefore.
    72:08
    That's right. It's true. Maybe he's had someone steal them for him. No. Insurance drugs! You have to do that for this guy though. I mean, that sucks. Yeah, it does. It sucks. Any time you lose something that's that personal and that special that you have, that really sucks. I hope that... Hopefully they'll recover them and find them and get them back, you know? Hopefully. Yeah, exactly. But I'm like you in that, well, I don't know how often you do, but sometimes when I'm out, I do get worried that people will know that I've got Pimball machines and they might not be there when I get home one day. Absolutely. It would have been better if I stole a title he didn't want. Like, oh no, someone stole my Rescue 911.
    72:57
    They must really hate me because they left the cue ball wizard. The cue ball wizard's okay. Oh, she really need that ramp shot.
    73:10
    Roundy ramp ramp. It's the only other pinball machine that has a cue ball in it besides Hercules. Nice. I believe.
    73:21
    Yeah. Does it? It does. Yeah, in the upper playfield is a cue ball. Oh, that is a cue ball. I was wondering if it was the one down below and I'm thinking it felt a little bit lighter than a cue ball. But you're right. It's the one up above, the skill shot. Yep, so 100% if you put a cue ball in your game it's going to be the best. Yeah, that's the card. Although, among other people, I've played a well-working Hercules and it's actually a fun game when it's working. But it's just never working.
    73:50
    Yeah, I'm yet to play in recent times a Hercules that was some semblance of fun. Is there even one of those in Australia? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to have them around, you know, and this is what I sort of said, like, you know, I was streaming, and I'll talk about it later, I was streaming Cheetah the other night with Ryan and he was saying, you know, they're a rare machine. And I remember Cheetah being everywhere when I grew up. And so was Hercules. Hercules was just in every major city. You would see one or two Hercules in arcades. They were quite popular here. Yeah, I've seen way more Herculeses than I've seen Cheetahs. Really? I've never seen Hercules outside of Hershey Park. And every time we've gone for the last, I don't know how long we've been here, 10 years, 10, 12 years, it's been broken. And today, when Lemire was there with us, it was actually working. I mean, the right flipper was totally shot, but just the fact that we got to flip it was pretty cool because that's not a game that we see very often. Yeah, I've never seen the doctor so giddy. Oh my God, I was so happy. Yeah, but it's a novelty game. Hercules, Hercules. It is one of those games. And I would put the pinball circus in that category in that you play it and you kind of go, that was really cool to play, but I don't need to play it again. Exactly. That's not something that I'm ever going to seek out again, but for something that unique, I mean the world's biggest pinball machine with a cue ball as a pinball, I mean just playing at once was enough, but I can track it off my bucket list. Not if it's playing. Yeah, I'll play it again, seriously. It was fun.
    75:37
    Fair enough. Shall we tip the top 100 guys? Guys, I'm very curious to hear everybody's strategy for playing the scenes in the top 100. Dude, I cannot... I'm insisting that I go last. Oh, this is going to be so good. Fadieng? Yes. It's so fucking hard.
    75:56
    Alright, here we go. Here we go. Hey Google, pick a number between 1 and 100. Good. Maybe the Hobbit again. Yeah.
    76:11
    63. Family Guy. Oh, nice. Stewie Pinball. Where's Ron Allen when you need him? Oh my. Stewie was on there last episode. That's right. Yes, as we expect. I'm just going to put it out from the outset. You may have said this before. I am not a huge fan of Family Guy slash Shrek. and maybe it's a Patlola thing, but the layout just does not do it for me. I just feel it's really awkward. So, how do we play Family Guy? Three shots on the whole play field.
    76:52
    So, go. How are you going to play this? After you guys. Wait, I want to see. I just want to see. So, Joe just pulled up a picture so that I could see. Oh my gosh, here's what you're going to do. I cannot wait for this. Okay, so first of all, you're going to make yourself a topper. Okay?
    77:14
    That's why we're going to approach this game for you. 100% going to improve your gameplay. Okay? Certainly makes the ones here look better.
    77:24
    100%. So then you're going to plunge the ball. You're going to... I'm trying to look at the picture here and not laugh, to be quite honest, Because this game is really awful. Alright, here's what we're going to do. We're going to hit that white dog.
    77:45
    It's Brian. His name's Brian. He hasn't seen his name? Any dog. He just... I can't. Buzz, no. Oh my god. Ron is going to kill me when he hears that one. You're going to hit that dog all day long.
    78:03
    It's like junkyard. I've been doing a dog all day. That's my strategy. Okay, that works. Alright, your turn, Doctor. Alright, so I've never played this game. No, seriously. We're not going to do this. But looking at the rules online that I just rapidly googled, I'm going to try as hard as I can to get to fart multiball because that just sounds like I have to experience. And then after that, hit the thingy and don't drain. Dude. Hit the what? It's a thingy. The thingy. Listen, it's very specific. You need to hit the thingy. Usually it's the thingy that's lit up with a lit arrow. There's also a mode called sexy party. What? I'm going to go to the sexy party?
    78:49
    Oh, my God. No, you know what? Listen, I don't know how on earth you are ever going to do this to a game again without myself and my husband. And Lard Multiball, Fart Multiball, and Sexy Party are all modes in the same. Does Ryan get to go to the sexy party? I don't know. And Spur Multiball. Yeah. I don't know. I don't like the little play field. I think that that thing is weird.
    79:19
    Why are you still here? Is he still alive? I couldn't tell if he's used it enough because you're laughing so hard in the background. I'm just loving your thought process about this game.
    79:35
    Looking at a picture and a rule sheet. It's just genius. Listen, you know, this is how we go into playing a pinball game like this. Any pinball game. If you don't know how to play, you just look at it and you're like, all right, well, what am I going to hit today? Let's see what's happening here. And then my strategy for any game is just to hit what's lit.
    80:01
    I don't know. Well, let's hear from the experts. Let's hear from... All right, but here's my challenge. Can I offer a challenge for this game... Segment? Yes, but I'm having word retrieval issues. I'm very sorry. I need to issue a challenge. You need to tell me how to play this game and score a decent amount of points. Now, I'm not talking like Pinnball level points, but I want to know how to play this game and I need three easy objectives. That's it. Or less. You can make it in less. Joe can do this, for sure. Because there's actually not much more to do with that. Yeah. And it can't be like, first you want to like this thing and then you want to like this thing And you need to do this thing. And, like, it's got to be, like, hit the dog all day long. That you can do. Okay. You can hit the dog all day long if you want. All right. See, that's, like, that is a goal that I can probably achieve at least, like, 25% of the time. Although, no, it's referred to as the can. The can? Because of the can, the beer can. Oh, is he standing? I can't even see that in the picture.
    81:16
    Yeah, and every time he hit it, it goes, boom. Oh, that's a cool sound effect. Okay. So hit the can all day long. You can do that. That's it? Yeah. See, I could tell you how to play any game. I just called that. I called that shit, buddy. Well, that's not really what you do, but that would be the simplest thing. You made me do what it's like you're... You wanted the simplest thing. I gave you the simplest thing. Let's do it a complicated way. No, not like super complicated. It's not a complicated game. It's small person complicated. It's not a complicated game. So you cannot complicate this machine. I feel as though I could probably complicate any pinball machine that you threw at me, Marty. It's as dumb as the source material. Oh, well, yeah. Go on. I don't know whether you're just insulting Family Guy or me, and I am just going to pretend that you are insulting Family Guy. That was Family Guy. Okay. Good. Fantastic. Okay, so mainly your first objective on the game when entering the playfield is it's important to know whether or not the death is disabled. If it is, they tend to have a sign that says something along those lines. Death? Death. There's a pop-up post in the middle. That's death?
    82:30
    It's actually death. There's a death target. It's the character of death. Oh, okay, so it wasn't death. If you don't know the show, then yeah. Well, this makes it even better. You need to break it down for a layman, okay? So it's not like death in terms of like you hit it and you're going to drain immediately death. No, it's a ball save. It's literally like a target that says death on it. Yep. Oh, okay, all right. Okay, so hit that. So you can plunge it. Your skill shot is going to be the bottom drop target on the left, which is above death. That's the normal skill shot. The super skill shot is if you plunge and get behind the depth target and then use the upper flipper to hit Stewie or the monkey loop around shot and that will give you a super skill shot which is worth a lot more.
    83:17
    And then once you're in the game itself, pretty much the main thing you're doing in this game is hitting the spinner to light your modes and playing modes and then the modes light and they light various shots around the play field which there aren't many of them at all. Okay, but wait, sorry, we're shifting the computer, Marty. So is this the spinner right here, this thing? Where's the spinner? I didn't even see a freaking spinner. There you go. Spinner's right there. It's the right orbit. On the right orbit. Who's this crazy redhead? Oh. That's not your pin. No, it's Lois. Lois. That's a girl. Thanks. Listen, in this picture all I can see is red hair. Oh, I think it's the boobs now that I'm like, actually.
    84:01
    Oh, I see Lois. Oh my god, that's hilarious. Sorry, babe. I just saw the red in here. It was a ginger. It could have smashed me all in, too.
    84:15
    Great, for sure. Okay, so the spinner lights your modes. X amount of spins equals lighting modes, which is going to be lit at the scoop. And that's their label TV modes. So that's one of the main things you're going to be doing in the game. The other thing that you can do is hit the captive ball, and I'll advance and give you letters for spelling out Pinball, which activates the upper playfield, which if you can get up there and complete all the characters up there, you'll start to do multiball, which is very lucrative compared to the rest of the game. One thing to keep in mind is whether or not a mod has been done to it. So at Pinberg, for example, normally there's a captive ball behind each of the captive balls, and then there's a connecting loop that has a pin in it that makes it so that the balls cannot exit their respective areas.
    85:02
    Whereas at Pinberg, they remove one of the balls and remove the post so that every time you hit one of the captive balls, It transfers to the other captive ball so that you can't just pound on it consistently to get to Stewie Pinball. So after you hit the bottom captive ball, you actually have to go to the upper flipper and hit the Stewie captive ball so that it knocks it back, and that's the only way to advance the Stewie Pinball. But mainly those are the two main things in the game.
    85:30
    Much like in the show, you never want to hit Meg. She's useless. laughter That's like the best theme integration ever is the fact that they just put a shot over there that's not worth anything and you never shoot it. Which is the joke in the show, I believe. I'm not a big fan.
    85:50
    So yeah, that's the main two things you're going to be going. Other things you can do is if you drop targets I think four times, you get fart multiball. Yeah. And the other main thing to remember is that if you're having a really shitty ball or a really shitty game, on ball three, you'll get Pity Lard multiball, so you only have to hit the can like once or twice to get that. And I think you have to have like under four million or something like that to be rewarded that. Besides that, you can pound on the can when it's lit. The bop bumpers change what's lit, and after like five hits or something like that, it will award you whatever is on the beer can. So you can play it earlier or you just hold it off and play it later. But I mean, that's mainly what the... So let me recap. Okay, behind the depth is the skill shot.
    86:44
    Behind the depth, right? Isn't that what you said? Mm-hmm. Okay. And so then I want to hit the spinners all day.
    86:51
    The light for TV mode in the scoop. See, like, this is already getting too complicated for me. Okay, so you want to hit the spinners, light the TV mode, hit the captive ball, start the Stewie thing that's up top, get all the characters. Don't hit Lois. Don't hit Meg. You can hit her up top. She's useless on top.
    87:17
    Yeah, I mean, it's not that good of a game, in my opinion. I think this game kind of sucks. What's better, this game or Shrek? Shrek is better because Shrek has some alternate, some different rules that make it a better tournament game. No, because Shrek is way better than fucking Family Guy. It's just the same game. I don't know, are the rules different? Yeah, on Shrek they changed some of the rules that made it a better tournament game. Okay.
    87:45
    But, I mean, I like the theme in this game. Even if you love Family Guy, I mean, this game probably has the most call-outs of any game that's ever existed, by far. So, I mean, there's... More than Pinball Party? Way more. Really? Oh yeah, Steph McFarlane. There's call-outs in there that people who have owned this game for, like, many, many years, they still hear new call-outs. There's so much in there. But, I mean, it's got a lot of good humor and all that stuff into it. It's just, I don't think the play field is that interesting or fun to play. I mean, like, literally, you have three shots.
    88:18
    So you hit, aren't scoops or gaffet balls. I didn't even see the ramp. Yeah, you have a left ramp, but the left ramp doesn't really work really to you. It's a ditzel? You don't shoot it that often. It's like a ditzel ramp? No, that's what I was going to say about the ramp. So if you're not playing in tournament and extra ball is available, then just keep hitting the ramp until you light extra ball and then shoot extra ball via the upper, well, the upper Newton ball, effectively. Yeah and you can get Crazy Chris which you know it can be worth decent points from hitting the left rampaton It a safe option but it a long and boring option Yeah well honestly everything is long and boring in this game This game is one of the most grinding things you do. It's just, especially if they don't take the ball out of Stewie, it's literally backhanding the pinball, going up top, getting that, and then it's just control, doing the same thing, backhanding it, maybe it goes in the scoop, maybe you get back control, More backhanding, hitting the spinner, delight the modes. It's just, I hate playing this game, honestly. It's just mind-numbing. I'm sorry, were you talking? I just couldn't even, I couldn't even, I think it's all a sleeper for a minute.
    89:33
    Imagine playing it. So dry. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And, you know, I love Family Guy, one of my favorite shows, and I love the humor. And it's just really disappointing that they couldn't make a fun layout that's got a fun theme with fun call-outs to bring you joy. It's fun theme, great call-outs, terrible layout, and really uninspiring rules.
    90:03
    Yeah, which I find that Pat Lawler makes a lot of these games, in my opinion. I'm not a big fan of this. But what I would want is a game with the same amount of theme as this, but South Park, and actually good layout. That would be like one of my dream themes. There's no South Park Pinball? There is, but it's like only has stuff from the first season and it's very repetitive and sucky. But there is South Park Pinball, right? There is, yeah. Then we're going to move on. No more South Park Pinball, please. Because if anyone from Stern is listening, we need Wonder Woman, okay? I'm sorry, I'm just saying. Completely different subject. I understand, but you know what? Sometimes you need to deviate from the selected path to entertain your audience.
    90:51
    There. Wow. They're not going to do it. They might. Wonder Woman or South Park? Wonder Woman. Probably not South Park either, but I don't know. DC movies don't pay the bills, so I don't know. That'd be a tough one for them to... Although that is the one good franchise DC has, so maybe. Yeah, everyone said that Aquaman was great, and I watched that on the plane on the way over, and... I wouldn't say it's great, it's fine. No, it's a solid beige.
    91:28
    I've never heard it put that down. Wonder Woman is like everything extra. You know what I mean? Wonder Woman was right.
    91:36
    You could make it gold. I mean, like, oh my god. The sparkle factor on Wonder Woman, the potential for sparkle factor could be... Well, if you want sparkles, you're going to have to go to Jersey Jack for that.
    91:50
    They're the kings of sparkle. Listen, Kurt needs to think outside the box. The back box. No! Not a joke, but it'll be. Well, I mean, the new movie's coming out next year, so if they were going to do it, it'd probably be after the second one.
    92:09
    What new movie? Wonder Woman 2. Yeah, the sequel. God, I need to get out from under the rock. We just blew her mind. Yeah, there was an awesome good... We did. I know I did, but I didn't know there was a second one coming out. Yeah, sure. We don't have cable, Marty.
    92:25
    Because they live in Amish country. We turn butter. No, we have Netflix. Netflix and Hulu. Well, you don't need cable these days, do you? No, we save like $300 a month. Are you kidding me? Peace. Yeah, absolutely. Like everything there for streaming. And, you know, if you, you know, subscribe to Twitch, which is, you know, Amazon, you get Amazon Prime for free. So there's another streaming service for you. So that's just a quick way of me saying, you guys, if you've got, you know, Twitch Prime, send me a Prime subscription. Thanks very much, Rob. I still have to use my prescription. So maybe, I don't know. Prescription?
    93:04
    Subscription. Don't you get a free one like every month or something? I'm drinking? So is my brain to mention even worse now? I'm the only one that's drinking.
    93:16
    No, no. Sarah's the only one who's not drinking here, actually. Really? She's the one that sounds the most drunk. Coming through as witty and charming and all the best things. But Marty, she's totally drunk on crafting right now. I am not doing anything. I'm just sitting here because Marty keeps complaining about the table noise. He's scooting, making... I complained once, maybe twice.
    93:42
    Listen, I'm just saying I'm following directions. You're doing very well. Thank you. So before we let's talk about what we've done in this week in pinball, including what you've done the last couple of days as the awesome foursome. Oh, I like that. We're the new squad. Nice. The squad. We need a better name than that, though. I don't know. That's a political reference.
    94:08
    We got it. We'll come up with something fabulous. Joe, take it away. This week in pinball. Joe Lameau. Oh.
    94:16
    What? We played pinball at Hershey for a little bit. We're rocking pinball machines here. So I'm going to get rid of you so that I can play Wonka more, so I can be convinced that it's a good game. Still trying. But I think that's all. Are you a bit cooler, Wonka? Yeah, I'm not a big fan. I mean, I'm getting more into it. Theirs actually shoots correctly, so that's a plus. Like, you can hit the drops, which is always nice. Which is, this is the first one I've played that you can actually do that. So, I'm getting there. It's better. I have more of an appreciation for it, but I'm still being reminded of all the things that annoy me. When Christian was playing and he got into Wonka Mania and it was just like, and all the various things that were going on, I'm like, I just want to hear that mode and his callouts and everything.
    95:07
    There's so much going on at all times, it's just everything else gets washed out. You can stack a lot of different things in Wonka, and so if you start a mode and then you start another mode, the callouts kind of compete, and it becomes a little bit jumbled. So that is definitely true. And I know one of the biggest complaints with Manka is that the assets aren't used necessarily as well as people might like. So that is definitely an issue. You don't have a lot of the movie clips that you might want to see. The audio isn't necessarily paired to the video.
    95:45
    But the shots are really nice. The ramps are repeatable, which is great. I think the rules are deep enough, but they're also not so deep. so that people who just want to play, who are more casual than hyper-competitive, can get into it and have fun. Yeah, but there's definitely some feeds on this game that are so dickish you have no idea.
    96:06
    You hit the left orbit and it comes through one of the two lanes above the WonkaVision, right down the middle. It's like, that's so cool.
    96:17
    It's the reverse Walking Dead pop-bumper area. Oh, yeah. The things that come out of that upper right corner is just like... It's a little better now because they do have a clear ramp so you can almost see the upper flipper, but they still have a giant Wonka sign that blocks being able to see the upper flipper, which I don't know why they did that, but... You just need to know it's there. I know. Well, yeah, I have to look over and be able to see it, but yeah, there's just some weird feeds that come out from that area that are literally right down the middle, and you just know you're dead. No matter what, which kind of sucks, but yeah. I'm not allowed to move the machine.
    96:55
    Morty, have you put much time on Walker? No, I haven't, really. Though I will say, I don't know if I got to thank you personally for the advice you gave me at Pinberg, which was just effectively hit the right ramp. And I was doing it, and it was doing nothing. And I was like, are they sure you're thinking of? Wait, the story continues, Jock. It's a story, because I was doing nothing, like literally nothing, and my score was not going up. It was a relatively safe shop, and I was just going over and over and over. And I probably did it about, I don't know, maybe 30 ramps, and I just went, nah, I think they've got this wrong. Dr. Pinn gave me the advice, and I went, I think he's got it wrong. Started playing the rest of the game, and dropped my ball, and then this bonus just happened. And it was really funny because the people we were playing with came over and said, we were wondering why you were doing that ramp because of doing nothing. And then we saw your bonus and we realized you knew what was going on.
    97:58
    There's two parts to that right ramp. So the bonus is one. So as you hit the right or the left ramp, you're going to get chocolate bars. I was like, why are you only hitting the right one and not the middle one? The entire bonus is chocolate bars times your bonus multiplier. And then as you hit the right ramp, you're also qualifying other things. Like you're setting up modes. All the factory modes are started via the right ramp, spelling Wonka on that kind of factory tower there. They're lit via the right ramp. Right, they're lit that way. So then if you're hitting the right ramp a ton and then you sink it into the saucer that's shot underneath Wonka Vision, you're going to start all of those modes basically at once. So you're getting chocolate bars, you're qualifying modes, And that's usually how I start off when I play. I'm trying to hit the ramps, get the chocolate bars up for the bonus factor, start a few modes, and then play the rest of the game. So it's a nice strategy, especially in competition. If it's set up tough, that's a repeatable shot. You can hit a lot. You can get a lot of chocolate bars that way. And then the bonus, the game might come down to the bonus. And if you have more chocolate bars, you're going to win. Don't miss early or you're fucked. Yeah, the right ramp is a little bit dicey because there's a target right to the left of the right outland and if you hit that, that's going straight down the middle. On your head. Yeah. What else to do? What else to get up to pinball wise? Pinball wise, I don't think we did. We've been like on a pinball hiatus, man, since Pinberg. We had like post-Pinberg depression and then I started a new job. The girls started school. Christian has been crazy busy at work and he's been on call. Every freaking weekend. He's like on weekend number two of a seven weekend stretch of working. So thank you Joe and Leslie for coming out and breaking the streak and allowing us to kind of play some pinball. Thank you. That's ridiculous.
    99:56
    Thank you. Am I kidding me? This has been one of the best like weekends we've ever had. It's not even over here. Cheers, buddy. Booyah. Wish you were here, Marty. Cheers, Leslie. No, I wish I was there.
    100:09
    Well, my week has been, besides planning, I mentioned before, I streamed at Ryan's place and I wanted to play his old Stern Electronics games of which I think he's got maybe six of them now, I want to say. Are you two kids back together? We were never apart. That's right. So there you go. And I really hadn't played, so we streamed Cheetah and Quicksilver, which I hadn't really played that much. I mean obviously they come up, but certainly not in Australia, you just don't see them anywhere. Does the Juta have the new ROM in it? No, it doesn't. So I pretty much did the thing, and I got close to 8 million I think was the score. That's a lot of things. Yeah, so that was. So I maxed out the collect and collected a couple of times. I think it's 500,000 to collect.
    101:04
    It's a fun game. And Quicksilver, I've been on record saying that it's a shit game. And I will retract that because, well, it's not. It's a freaking great game. And I'll tell you why it's great. It's freaking great from a garbage game. Like, what happened?
    101:23
    Well, do you know what happened? I hadn't played a good one. And this one is set up so well and so freaking fast. So your reaction times have to be freaking lightning quick on this and was just doing some amazing saves and oh god it's fast and it's fun. I'm not in love with the rules if I'm often but I got to do the thing on this which was max out everything and you get a special light show when the ball ends and I did that and so it was a hero moment so that's probably why I like it. I wouldn't necessarily call that the thing on that game, but it's one of the things. Go toss the 100. Yeah, I'm an outshot. State that one, I guess.
    102:14
    Well, yeah, I mean, it's effectively what he referred to as the wizard mode. The furthest you can get is maxing your bonus and maxing the scoop and maxing your targets and maxing everything. So, I did that. Yeah, I suppose that is still everything. Well, you get a special light show at the end when you do that, so whatever. That makes me feel super special. Yep, it does.
    102:40
    But I've got a question for you as well because this is my dilemma that I've got to deal with. So, you know, I've got my monsters up and there's been a bit of talk around that, you know, Stern LEs these days don't move like they used to. And I'm curious to know whether you've noticed that over there as well. But they don't move. And my Munsters has been up for probably four weeks now. I've had a few little bit of nibbles, but people aren't wanting even remotely close to what it's up there for.
    103:14
    You also have the most expensive version of it too, so that doesn't... Marty, isn't that a risk though? Like when you're buying an LE, you have to get in on it before maybe even see the game. So if the game is not, you know, if it gets any bad press or there's people out there on Pinside that are railing on it for whatever reason, then you're kind of in a bind because if you can't resell that game, there's so many games out there now that are competing for the dollar.
    103:43
    I can kind of understand that, that people, if they're going to get a game like that, they might want to go for the Pro versus the LE. It's going to be a lot more expensive for a game that, you know, is maybe not rating as well as others. Yeah, and I'll speak directly to your Australian buddies there. Stop it. Monsters is not a bad game. Like, it is a fun game. The LA Premium is the best version of the game. You'll still like it. Somebody buy his goddamn deal.
    104:12
    But here's the dilemma, because someone said, I'll swap it for Black Knight LA. Hmm. I would totally do that. Yeah, I might do that too, Marty, because it's another game that's kind of taken a little heat like Munsters has in the sense that, you know, it's not your Walking Dead, it's not your Batman 66, but it's a fun game, and Black Knight is a game you haven't probably put a ton of time in, so that's a reasonable... Personally, I think you should hold off until you can get a WWE LE.
    104:47
    Yeah. Now, there's a game. No, I mean, that seems like a... I would totally trade. I think Black Knight is a more fun game than Munsters. Do you? And I think that there's more strategy. I really like that upper lock up there. I think that that's really fun. I love the... These are such technical terms that I'm using right here. I love the ball thingy, where you hit the ball thing.
    105:16
    The thing that spins? The like javelin with the balls on the end. The flail? Javelin? Yeah. What? Sick. Hashtag don't know what a javelin is.
    105:26
    A javelin is with a spear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a flail. Yeah, it's more like a mace. O-M-G. The technical bullshit going on over here, Marty, is ridiculous. I know what you mean by the bull thingy. It's talking, it's fine. O-M-G. How do you not know your medieval fucking weapons? It has been a year since I've been to the fucking Renaissance Fair. Okay.
    105:54
    Anyways, I think that Black Knight is a fun game. You've got like a, you've got, I don't know, I like Black Knight. I think it's a really fun one. No, it's a good game. I would totally agree. I mean, the upper play field I don't think is that great, but it's... I think it's fun.
    106:13
    Yeah. It increases the game length by like 40% and like increases the game length by like 10%. Dude, you need to take some happiness.
    106:24
    Happiness. What I've got to be thinking about is what's going to sell in time for Jurassic Park when it arrives in November. So if I take on Black Knight, can I then sell that? Is it more likely to sell Black Knight than it is Monsters?
    106:42
    Yeah, it's hard to know. He's got a classic though, you know what I mean? I feel like some people like to put the original Black Knight next to this Black Knight and that's kind of fun, you know, to have both. So maybe if somebody owns the first Black Knight, they might want to put them side by side. Or the second Black Knight. Well, yeah, but the first one's better. Yes, it is. The second one sucks. You're right, see? For a lot of the same reasons, the new one has issues because the upper play field is just not very good.
    107:12
    Wow. I wish you had video for this, Marlon. I wish I did, too. I know something's going on. Sarah was doing her best impression of those below-up people at gas stations that just flail around. We called it one of those black dudes.
    107:31
    Trisha was very impressed that I knew that the first game was better than the second one. I was just celebrating. Dude, you totally threw a Hail Mary on that one. You had no idea, but then when Joe confirmed it. I totally did. You did? Yes. Because when Joe confirmed it, you were like, I fucking knew that. I did. Boom. But here's the thing. Sometimes I say things, and then I don't know if my opinions jive with everybody else's, because I feel as though sometimes I'm an outlier in the world of pinball, and that's difficult. Then Joe was like, yeah, that's true. And I was like, boom. What?
    108:08
    I mean, the thing is that I think the Black Knight struggles decently on location because it's not a license that anyone knows. Yeah, it's not. So it could go either way. If you find someone who loves monsters, then they'll be like, yeah, I want that game. You're not going to find anyone besides a hardcore enthusiast that even knows what the Black Knight is. That's true. So they could care two shits about what the theme is. So that one is only going to be aimed at the hardcore normal enthusiast who would want that game. And then you have Munsters, which has a wider breadth of potential. That's true. But Black Knight has a feather. It does. But Munsters is still pretty niche, right? I mean, maybe not as niche as the Black Knight fans in the pinball world, but Munsters are relatively. I mean, I was happy they made Munsters. Sure.
    109:00
    Well, Marty. It's a dilemma. You've got to know whatever your market is there. I mean, I don't know how many Black Knights are there or if you see them or if you've heard people say if they like it or not. I know that you liked it and then cooled on it, so do you even want a Black Knight? Well, I don't know whether I actually really ever liked it. I was in on it and decided not to after seeing it played because I just didn't feel like it was going to make me feel good. But the appeal for it is that I effectively get to rent it for a couple of months and therefore get to stream it for a couple of months. So there you go. Then it sounds like you've answered your question. Yeah, it does. So there you go. Good decision, Marty. Be the Black Knight. Ha, ha, ha.
    109:45
    Stand up and fight. So you guys are obviously going to come to Melbourne in October, obviously. No? Wait, what's in October? You already blew your load for this year. I mean, you just had your big nasty stuff, so why does your country need to exist anymore for the next year?
    110:07
    He has finger roots! Well, the reason being that in October, we are having six days of deep pinball is the reason. It's only five days of finger roots. Yeah. It originally was five days of deep pinball, and I put the flyer up as well, and then I realized that I forgot one of the events. So, it wasn't quite hilarious. Down under, so that's pretty deep. Yeah, it is pretty deep. So the reason why I'm saying this, so the event that I'm putting on, the big Melbourne Silver Bowl championship that I'm putting on, that goes from Friday the 25th of October to Sunday the 27th of October. But around that, for the people that are going to come to this event, this is why I'm saying come to this event, because there's actually six events all in that space of time. So Thursday the 24th, you've actually got Ryan's tournament that he puts on, the Pitbull Paradise monthly match play. You've then got Friday qualifying for the Melbourne Silver Bowl. Saturday you've got the further qualifying and you've also got the Melbourne Silver Bells and Chimes. See what I've done there? See how it's Melbourne Silver Bells? I love those.
    111:07
    That was very clever. Then Sunday you've got the finals for A Division and B Division. The following Tuesday you've then got Pixel Alley Strikes Competition and then the Thursday, the 31st of October, you've got the Bayside Pinball Club's monthly meet. So you've just got these events all happening at the end of October. People should come over for it. I mean, all I'm hearing is, listen to all these tournaments, Colin's going to win.
    111:32
    Well, he's not coming for that one. And I think he ended up getting over like 300 Whopper points for his achievements at Brisbane Masters. Almost 400, right? It jumped him into the top 10. Yep. Eight, I think he is now.
    111:48
    Marty, I don't know. So, I mean, I just have to throw out there that, you know, running one pinball tournament seems like a really difficult thing. So the fact that you're running six. Well, I'm not. Yeah, that's right. I'm running two of them. Okay. Yeah, I'm running the Melbourne Silver Bowl tournament and the Flip Frenzy, and then all the others are people within the Melbourne thing, which is great that we've got that many events on at once. Well, I believe that next month we're going to be playing our first Flip Frenzy tournament. Cool. Ah, well I hope you enjoy it because it's a fun format.
    112:25
    I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. Did you manage to listen to the Pinball profile that I was on recently? Anyone? No? No. I didn't even know that was a thing. Is that what I just got notified of today that got posted? Yeah, which I think happened maybe a week ago. Yeah, yeah. I will listen to it on our way home. It was a great episode. It was actually a freaking amazing episode. So I think there was like 30 people or something like that that he'd recorded at Pimberg and put the episode out. So we love People Profile. We love Jeff, obviously. And Jeff's doing a world tour. Do you know about this? No. What's this world tour that Schmuff's doing? Well, he's traveling the world. I think he's going to maybe four different countries and maybe eight events over four different countries. There's like t-shirts, there's competitions. I think he's giving away like Pinsadium sets for these things as well. It's like a big deal. You're saying he's like the ginger Santa Claus.
    113:26
    That's exactly what I'm saying. Jeff travels so much for pinball. I'm jealous. And the fact that now he's doing even more than that is awesome. Great for job. So when is he, so he's coming to Australia, isn't he? I don't know whether we're able to reveal that. He's keeping his cards close to his chest, but yes, he is.
    113:49
    Oh. He's saying that pretty openly. Yeah, he was totally saying, and his wife's coming. Correct, and he's staying with me. Jesus Christ, man. I talked to her on the phone once. Yeah, she's awesome. She's definitely the better of the half, so.
    114:03
    What's the phone? You can talk on these things? Yeah, this is weird. Well, I hope... It sounds like it's bucket lists, dude. We've got to get there.
    114:15
    You should. At some sight, get over here. It's a lot of fun. It's a great country. Sure, whatever. You need to start saving up that Patreon money so I can get a ticket. Yeah, okay. That's a good thing.
    114:30
    Well, the good thing about Jeff is that we'll be along for the ride, and I'm sure we'll get a lot of good podcasts out of his trips. And he'll do a lot of live videos on his Facebook page as well, so everybody make sure that you are liking and subscribing to Pimple Fowler.
    114:46
    But can we get him to do it with Josh Sharpe so we can just listen to those two? Because I can listen to those two for days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're so good. They are. They are good.
    114:57
    So there you go. Guys, we're done. So it's past midnight where you are, so thank you very much. Can you go back to Plank Wonka? Is it really? Yes, you can. Yeah. When are we going to have another Mrs. Pins episode? I don't know, she's doodling right now, some kind of a... I know, I was writing a few episode notes because I was inspired.
    115:18
    But yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I started this new job and it's been like freaking nuts. I've got this test on Tuesday. I feel like I'm back in college. It's like, mom. Mom, mom. But I am very excited to be back to work and feeling sort of like an adult. She has notes from Pinberg and a notebook full of stuff that she needs to talk about. Totally. I've got like seven wops. So yeah, as soon as I have the time to sit down, record, it's coming out. Yep. Another thing we have to address is do you realize that their children have a bouncy house in this house? No, what? A blow-up fucking bouncy house and a ball pit, okay? I have a house and a ball pit. Right, they're so rapid spoils. Are insanely spoils. But to my credit, the ball pit is a $10 blow-up swimming pool filled with balls. All I know is that my childhood sucked, okay? I didn't have a bouncy house. Why didn't you grow up in this house, man? I mean, you grow up here. Right? Grandma and Grampy Pin got the bouncy house. I mean, nothing. Little Tykes Bouncy House is phenomenal. It is. Highly recommend. Five stars. Then I need to get an adult one in here, and then this is the adult playroom. Yeah, I know, right? We could just take this table away, get a giant, big, inflatable, pink princess castle, and call Joe happy.
    117:00
    Will it be My Little Pony? Duh. Alright, I'm in. Okay. Wow. Marty and Joe, thank you for letting us, you know, be part of this. Thank you. If I can get it happen. I love to accost to this show. I mean, to make this happen more, we just have to come here more, I guess. I know. Or we're going to be in Massachusetts. It's just a hike. Yeah. Or Australia. That's right. I mean, maybe someday we'll be here with Marty and then you would be here and we would be with Marty. That's right. Awkward.
    117:39
    And so, you know, the great thing about coming on the show as well, you get to look forward to your faces on an image. What a word is going to be.
    117:47
    I don't know, but do you need a really excited face from me? Yep. Send me some stuff through. I will. I totally will. My vote is it should be head-to-head between two ferns. Instead of between two ferns, it's between two pins. And then you replace the ferns with them. You know, more than those sitting in the middle. There's some really good pictures of the Hershey characters. You could put us on the Reese's Guide and the Hershey Guide. That can be nice. All right. But I'll look forward to it. And, dude, happy Father's Day, by the way. Yay, thank you very much. Happy Father's Day. All right, I will continue now. My kids are calling me saying, where are you? So I better go on for Father's Day. Alright guys, thank you. Bye.