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The Pinball Show Ep 167: The Best & Worst Of 2024 Pinball, A Year In Review

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·2h 13m·analyzed·Dec 31, 2024
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TL;DR

Stern vaults seven games, D&D rumored for Jan 2025 release, Seth Davis discusses licensing bets and consumer reach.

Summary

The Pinball Show's 2024 year-in-review episode covers Stern Pinball's vault program (retiring seven titles for two years minimum), upcoming cornerstone game speculation (likely Dungeons & Dragons), dealer-focused production updates, and CEO Seth Davis's interview on the Loser Kid Podcast. Hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discuss the vault strategy's impact on inventory management, license renewals, and dealer dynamics, while analyzing whether pinball can expand beyond its nostalgic, aging collector base.

Key Claims

  • Stern is entering a vault program retiring Deadpool, Iron Maiden, Star Wars, Star Wars Comic Art, Avengers Infinity Quest, Elvira's House of Horrors, and Foo Fighters for a minimum of two years

    high confidence · Zach Minney announces official vault program with specific game list and two-year minimum hold period

  • The next Stern Pinball cornerstone game (expected January 2025) is rumored to be Dungeons & Dragons based on designer feedback

    medium confidence · Zach speculates based on designer signatures (Dwight Sullivan/Brian Eddy pattern) and tummy rumors; no official announcement as of recording

  • Stern invited dealers to factory/Vegas on January 7th morning to play the next cornerstone game before media in afternoon

    high confidence · Zach reports this is first time Stern has invited dealers to pre-launch experience

  • Foo Fighters sold extremely well initially (saturated within six months) due to low expectations and fresh theme, but subsequent runs had weak dealer orders

    medium confidence · Zach's analysis of Foo Fighters' sales arc and subsequent vaulting despite being relatively recent release

  • Seth Davis stated Stern makes two-year advance bets on theme licensing to predict what will be popular

    high confidence · Zach cites Seth Davis Loser Kid Podcast interview quote

  • Seth Davis worked on projects mixing physical and digital products at Disney, including AR lightsabers and Disney Infinity

    high confidence · Zach references Loser Kid interview where Davis discussed his Disney background

  • Metallica Remaster Premiums are in short supply with dealers having back orders

    high confidence · Zach reports personal back order status and predicts January/February additional production runs

  • The vault program is designed to preserve resale value and encourage sales of sitting inventory rather than clearance pricing

    high confidence · Zach explains the strategic marketing intent and compares to Led Zeppelin price support model

Notable Quotes

  • “Data without purpose is meaningless... Numbers don't lie. They don't, but if you don't know how to or can't do anything about them, were the numbers really there in the first place?”

    Dennis Creasel @ Early in episode — Philosophical tangent on smart watch data tracking that ironically mirrors Stern's vaulting strategy—using visibility/information to drive behavior

  • “The rumors are telling my tummy that it's Dungeons & Dragons... I still don't know it to be a fact yet, as of this recording.”

    Zach Minney @ Mid-episode, cornerstone game discussion — Captures speculation confidence on unannounced title; D&D is primary rumor for January release

  • “What happened with Foo Fighters? I could be wrong, I'm usually not... everybody knew it was going to be Foo Fighters, thus expectations were very low... The game did sell very, very well, but that was based on the low expectation ratio.”

    Zach Minney @ Vault program discussion — Explains Foo Fighters' paradoxical vaulting despite recent release—massive initial sales saturation followed by weak reorder demand

  • “They're making a bet... the bets are all safe. All right, it's easier to stick with nostalgia. Don't try to do the John Wick.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Seth Davis interview analysis — Critiques Stern's conservative theme licensing strategy; references failed John Wick gamble

  • “The people who went to the arcades now have the money and they're at home more than they are at these locations and arcades... bringing the arcade to their home.”

    Seth Davis (quoted) @ Davis interview section — Explains the demographic shift driving home collector market dominance over location/arcade market

  • “I think this is a very good move by Stern Pinball because it upholds the value somewhat on some of your products... once they're out, they're out... pushes them a little bit more.”

    Zach Minney @ Vault program analysis — Dealer perspective on vault program's competitive pressure on small dealers and inventory management strategy

  • “The problem is is that arcades, while they still exist broadly, don't use pinball anymore... So it doesn't have the marketing that it did in the 70s.”

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyZach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonSeth DavispersonDungeons & DragonsgameFoo FightersgameDeadpoolgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Dealer tiering emerging: Stern vault program targets removal of 'piddly-ass dealers' (billiard shops, 5-10 games/year) who don't inventory risk; incentivizes consolidation to full-service dealers

    medium · Zach explains vault removes ability for small dealers to call Stern for on-demand stock; puts 'pressure on them'; acknowledges counterpoint that Stern loves adding dealers anyway

  • ?

    event_signal: Stern inviting dealers to January 7th factory/Vegas preview morning before media afternoon is first-time dealer inclusion in pre-launch experience; signals shift toward dealer engagement and early sales positioning

    high · Zach reports 'first time they've invited dealers' to pre-launch factory experience; timing coordination with media event suggests sales strategy alignment

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Seth Davis acknowledges pinball undervalued in consumer awareness and misconceived as 1970s technology; recognizes market potential beyond current enthusiast base but notes video game structural advantages

    high · Davis interview quote on nostalgia shift: arcade-goers aged into home collectors; Zach extends analysis: public perception of pinball stuck at 'Pong level' while video games evolved beyond that

  • ?

    event_signal: CES January 7th Stern event hosting media and dealers suggests coordinated announcement window; likely Monday, January 6th official launch with Friday teaser predicted

    medium · Zach speculates Friday teaser, Monday January 6th launch (or possibly January 7th); notes Tuesday is typical launch day; CES timing provides media coverage anchor

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.399

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. This week on the season finale of The Pinball Show, Dennis and I present The Pinball Show Awards in 2024. Idea and review. We also provide Stern Pinball production updates. We discuss release of the new game coming from Stern, the Seth Davis interview with the Loser Kids, and other pinistry news. Official club members of the Pinball Show get the Pinball Show Awards Worst of 2024, and that is one you do not want to miss. Look, 2024, you gave us some exceptional pinball, but 2025 done gone said, hold my beer. The hype is about to hit the fan, and deservedly so. Not fortune found, more things to buy. Pinball is a game of skill. Come close to toping the juice of the vine. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
1:11
It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Free roll, when you can, or toils can wait for a time. Happy holidays. It's the Pinball Show, episode 167 with Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel. Hey, Dennis, we have a new year amongst. Oh, what's your resolution for 2025? You know I don't do resolutions. Yeah, I know you don't. I don't either. I just, I think we've talked about this in past episodes. We have. Either you do it or don't. That's right. It shouldn't take a year. Decide what the hell you want for your life and do it. And if not, do it. Just do it. And set the bench on it. Wasn't that Shia LaBeouf? Wasn't that what he taught us? Do it. Just do it. Do it. Yeah. So, no, my resolution is continue to find peace, tranquility, and happiness.
2:06
Right? That's so nice. And not strangle one of my damn kids. Oh, the children. Think of the children. The children have been home for the last week or two.

Zach Minney @ Market discussion — Identifies structural challenge to pinball mass-market expansion—lack of arcade visibility compared to video games

  • “When you ask random people on the street what pinball is, they think of the equivalent of what Pong is to video games now... they think of old 1970, and video games has surpassed that archival, conceptual kind of thing, where pinball is not.”

    Zach Minney @ Seth Davis market analysis — Frames the core marketing challenge: pinball stuck in 1970s perception while video games evolved beyond Pong

    • Star Wars
    game
    Avengers Infinity Questgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Elvira's House of Horrorsgame
    Beatles Goldgame
    Black Knight Progame
    Metallica Remaster Premiumgame
    The Pinball Showpodcast
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastpodcast
    King Konggame
    Godzillagame
    John Wickgame
    Dune Prophecygame
    George Gomezperson
    Dwight Sullivanperson
    Brian Eddyperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    CESevent

    licensing_signal: Seth Davis two-year advance planning cycle for theme licensing creates inherent timing mismatch with pop culture trends; strategy relies on nostalgia picks (safe bets) rather than contemporary properties

    high · Davis quote on licensing bets; Dennis criticizes bets are 'all safe' and nostalgia-driven; examples given: Dune Prophecy committed before episode 1, avoided John Wick gamble

  • $

    market_signal: Foo Fighters rapid saturation (6 months) followed by weak reorder demand demonstrates over-production during COVID collector surge; vaulting despite 2023 release is unusual and indicates demand destruction

    high · Zach's detailed analysis of Foo Fighters sales arc: initial volume due to low expectations, rapid saturation, subsequent weak dealer orders, now vaulted to preserve value

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Cornerstone game designer pattern suggests either Dwight Sullivan (Brian Eddy) for D&D or Keith Elwin for King Kong; designer assignment signals design philosophy direction

    medium · Zach speculates 'feels like a Brian Eddy/Dwight Sullivan' or 'not an Elwynn' based on D&D vs King Kong rumor; pattern-matching designer signatures for unannounced title

  • $

    market_signal: Two-year minimum vault hold risks license non-renewal and permanent retirement of games; Stern holding seven titles suggests inventory overhang problem not resolved by production smoothing

    medium · Vault program requires license renewal after two years; Stern indicates games may not return 'if not substantial community demand'; implies licensing costs exceed projected returns

  • ?

    product_strategy: Metallica Remaster Premium dealer back orders and predicted January/February additional production runs suggest supply/demand imbalance and production constraint management

    high · Zach reports personal back order on Metallica Remaster Premium; predicts additional runs coming; characterizes as 'only title I'm back ordered at Stern at the moment'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern production batches currently running Beatles Gold, Black Knight Pro, Rush, Jaws, Jurassic Park Pro, Stranger Things Pro in small batches; next cornerstone follows imminently

    high · Zach reports recent production builds in detail; speculates next two weeks likely to see 2025 cornerstone game production startup

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Avengers Infinity Quest characterized as George Gomez's 'weakest game' with 'no tail' and 'soulless' code despite technical shootability; represents critical recalibration of designer's output consistency

    medium · Dennis and Zach both express lack of engagement with Avengers; Dennis compares to X-Men (also Gomez); characterizes as tower shot only standing out

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's vault program strategically removes slow-moving inventory from production to preserve resale value and discourage clearance pricing, pressuring weak dealers while maintaining dealer ecosystem appearance

    high · Zach explains vault strategy upholds value, increases sales of sitting inventory, and pressures small dealers to compete; compares to Led Zeppelin price support model

    • 2:16
    All of them, even the college ones. Such a Merry Christmas. We've had a great time. But now we're running right into 2025, and I've got to ask, do you have big plans for New Year's Eve? No. You're watching again? No, no, I'm not. I do have this whole week off. Okay. This is my recovery week. This may be an unpopular opinion, Dennis, but New Year's, New Year's Eve, one of my least favorite holidays. Yeah. I don't get it. I'm not much of a drinker. It's a birthday for the year. It's the Earth's birthday. I'm old. I don't like staying up, and I certainly don't want to stay up with company.
    2:59
    Ugh, that sounds horrible. When you were, when the kids were little, your kids, did you do the thing where it's like, oh, look, it's New Year, and you're, like, showing them, like, in the U.K. And then you get them to go to bed. No, we usually did New York and be like, here you go. Yeah, growing up, we'd have New York on. Yeah. Well, they have a fancy ball drop with Dick Clark. I'm not a big New Year's Eve person. I wouldn't be in my bed by 9 scrolling or watching a movie or something. I don't. I just, I'm a sleep apnea now. I don't. Yeah. I did this last week. I've got a sleep analysis now. So now it monitors in unison with my sleep apnea. So now it tells me how much deep sleep I'm getting, how much light sleep, how much I'm dreaming, how much I'm farting. I should do not. It takes and took out all that. What does all of that information do for you? Knowledge is power, Dennis. Yes, but what does it give you the power to do? I don't know. I hate sleeping and I hate being unconscious. This is where when people talk about their smart watches and all the stuff that it tracks, and I'm like, and what are you doing with all of that information? And the answer is generally nothing. It's like, okay, great. Data without purpose is meaningless.
    4:18
    Is it? Numbers don't lie. They don't, but if you don't know how to or can't do anything about them, were the numbers really there in the first place? The end of the year also rings in the awards show season. Oh, does it? Yeah, it does. Yeah. What was good about this last year? The Pinball Awards, formerly known as the Pinball Industry Awards, are now formerly awards. So we, just like we did last year, we're going to later in this episode conduct the Pinball Show Awards, where you and I give the objective best of 2024 for each category. And even some fun categories, too. That's going to be exciting. Are you going to send trophies to the companies?
    4:57
    No, I'm not. And you know what? You know what will be the same? What? They still won't respond. They'll be just as thankful as they were when I did send thousands of dollars. Wouldn't it be so cool if you could, if they would customize the labels and you could send them all Cristal, the wine. And we call it the Cristals. That's right.
    5:21
    At least Gary would appreciate that. Oh, I did, I did. Not really. Comedy comes from truth. So we're going to be doing that. We're also going to be giving a big recap as to the events that happened over 2024. Some say 2024 was the most happening year of pinball ever. And some say it was the worst. Maybe the truth is in the middle. We will find out. But first, we've got to go over some recent pen industry news. Just like Stern Pinball, Stern Pinball production updates here at the Pinball Show. We give you the goods. The past couple of weeks, Dennis and listener, they've been building Beatles Gold and Black Knight Pros. Oh, this must be the Thanksgiving leftovers edition. Yeah, they're back. Beatles Gold and Black Knight Pros. I'm still surprised how many Black Knight Pros we sold. I think maybe next episode, the episode after, we'll talk about sales. We'll do an episode on sales and how things did. Also being built in smaller batches the last couple of weeks has been Rush, Jaws, Jurassic Park Pro, and Stranger Things Pro. And then, you know, I don't know what's being built the next couple of weeks. One could only guess, listener, that maybe it is the first 2025 Stern Pinball Cornerstone game. Oh, that would make sense. They like to ship them quick. I also think January we're going to see Stern maybe throw on the line more Metallica remastered premiums because dealers are getting very short. I have back order on Metallica remasters right now. That might be the only title that I'm back ordered at Stern at the moment. So that should tell you a lot. So I think maybe January, February we will see some of those. So as I said, the next Stern Pinball Cornerstone game is close, so much so that this last week's term, Pinball formally invited some media into their factory and or Vegas, because they're doing the CES thing, on January 7th to experience and play their next game. Also of note, Dennis, I don't know if you knew this, but that's going to be the afternoon. Media are going to be there in the morning. This is the first time they've invited dealers.
    7:33
    Oh, wow. Dealers invited. Yeah. So we go up there in the morning to play on January 7th. But then, it's tricky, though. Why? Because I don't know when they're announcing this game. Are they announcing January 7th? Maybe it's before. Is it after? Certainly not after. Normally, no, I can't imagine after. They can't trust the media people. Yeah. But the, I mean, Tuesday's when they normally launch. So doing it the same day would be what I would guess. Yeah. But I don't know if they're going to have the dealers there for a tour and stuff the morning of the 7th. I don't think that they would announce it during that. You don't? They've had no qualms about announcing new accessories and stuff for sale when all the dealers are at shows. So making it in a way where you can't easily handle sales has never been a problem for them. Man, I cannot argue that. I'm just here. Look, numbers don't lie. I think we're going to get a teaser this Friday, ladies and gentlemen. And I believe we're going to get an official launch on Monday, the 6th. That would make sense. That would be smarter. Could be the 7th, but my guess is the 6th. And what do you think it is? I mean, the rumors are telling my tummy that it's Dungeons & Dragons. Me too. That's what my tummy rumors are saying. And crazy enough, I still don't know it to be a fact yet, as of this recording. I mean, it's not been announced yet. But then again, this is so 2024. Yeah. It's probably some enlightenment in 2025. I think things are going to be a lot smoother in 25. I think these manufacturers are going to be on the ball in 25. The only thing that I am hearing about this next Cornerstone game is that it is pretty damn good. But what does that mean? You say that about every cornerstone game. I know. It's an irrelevant statement. I don't think I said that about John Wick. You know, I don't remember, honestly, if you did or didn't. I don't think I did. But I think everything got drowned out. It feels like a Brian, Eddie. It feels like a Dwight Sullivan. It doesn't feel like a... You don't think it's an Elwynn? It's been a year since Jaws. The rumored Elwynn is King Kong. And then this rumored Eddie is Dungeons and Dragons. To have two of your three cornerstones be Dungeons and Dragons and King Kong, they got some King Kong balls over there. Why? King Kong's not a risky pick, is it? It's had recent movies. It's an iconic license. It worked for Godzilla. I don't think it's huge. It's well-known. So is Foo Fighters, but I don't know if that's a... And Foo Fighters sold well, didn't it? It did, but I don't think that was based on the theme it sold well.
    10:20
    I don't know. We'll talk about Foo Fighters and its popularity here right now as we discuss Stern Pimble announcing a vault program. Oh, this is beginning some talk. Yeah, 2.0. Because we're familiar, for those that don't remember, the old vaults in the D&D era were just games that they decided to run again that they would re-up the license for. And so Iron Man's like the case in point primary example. But it happened with Star Trek. It happened with ACDC. It's happened with a number of games. Usually there'd be minor tweaks, like improved engineering fixes for stuff that was notoriously not working well. But that's what it always was. And when the LCD era, screen era entered in, the vaults were always DMD games. Absolutely correct. But now they've flipped the script on us here, where they've announced that they're doing a certain vault program to streamline their available product offerings and to provide end customers with improved visibility to product availability. Basically, they're claiming, based on feedback from the community, enthusiasts, as well as their partners and dealers, there are some games that are just kind of, they're piling up a little bit, but making it difficult for new people getting into pinball to decide. I don't understand what you're saying with that. I don't either. I've got to be honest. That's what a lot of people have been saying, but I don't, that doesn't make much sense to me. Making it simpler to decide. Because there's many choices.
    11:52
    Well, all right. I'm saying that's what I've heard other media saying. I don't know if I heard Stern say that per se. Maybe they did. I honestly think it's just because there's some titles that aren't selling that well anymore because they've been out for so long. And it's like Stern's like, well, why are we going to re-up our licensing agreement if we're really only going to build once a year? And even if we do build once a year, it's like 100 units or less. I think it's more an efficiency thing of like, yeah, Deadpool's been out forever. Iron Maiden's been out forever. We've re-upped the license on Iron Maiden a couple times. Avengers Infinity Quest, our dealers haven't bought any in months. Like, they're sitting up at our factory. Like, what are we doing? That's what I think. Sure, but why not just, why call them vaulted at all? Why not just take them out of production? I think that's a marketing sales approach to encourage sales of the ones that are currently in stock. I mean, the brass tacks here is like... So you're throwing dealers a bone is what you're saying? I like this idea. I know some dealers do not. I think this is a very good move by Stern Pinball because it upholds the value somewhat on some of your products. Some of the things that have been sitting out there for a long, long time. Let's at least announce the titles that will be entering into the vault at the end of this year. So, they're done, pretty much. Deadpool, Iron Maiden, Star Wars, Star Wars comic art, Avengers Infinity Quest, Elvira's House of Horrors, and Foo Fighters. Foo Fighters! Yeah, everything on this list is old except that. Except for Foo Fighters. So are you saying maybe whatever I, you know, what this reminds me of, it reminds me of when Rush ceased production.
    13:44
    The only difference is they've announced that this CERN Vault program, listener, is putting these games into the Vault and at minimum not being able to pull them out of the Vault for two calendar years. Two years. So the earliest we would see any of these titles remade would be 2027? Yeah. So, or maybe not at all. They indicated that they may introduce these titles again if there was substantial community demand because they'd have to renew the licensure participation as most, if not all, the licensing contracts will expire during that two-year period.
    14:28
    So, yeah, I mean, to me this is smart because as a dealer, we had like Star Wars. They sell okay because it is just such a hot theme But they do kind of sit They've been out forever Same with like Elvira's House of Horrors That was starting to sit It was really starting to sit Foo Fighters is the one for me that Most people are alarmed about They're like that just came out not even two years ago That was our pick for best of in 2023 Right? What happened with Foo Fighters? I could be wrong I'm usually not is that when Foo Fighters came out, everybody knew it was going to be Foo Fighters, thus expectations were very low. It was announced, and Foo Fighters, the theme, did not sell that game. The game did sell very, very well, but that was based on the low expectation ratio to what people seen, what people felt, what people heard. It was a really fresh take on a pinball theme, a music pin theme, to say the least. the layout was fantastic, really, really fantastic. It was also during that time, it was like the tail end of the COVID, where everybody was buying everything. I think Foo Fighters sold really, really, really well, to the point that it saturated almost immediately. Within the first six months, that game was, the sales were pretty much saturated, past the expectation level that Stern probably even held for it. and then once that is done, every time they do subsequent runs of them, they probably didn't get huge orders from dealers. Does that make sense? I think that's what happened. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's a marketing reason for it. I mean, I guess we could ask dealers if it's moving now, and I'm assuming it's not. No, it doesn't. It sits pretty good. I don't. I just thought it was interesting because some of these, like, I questioned why Deadpool has remained in active production for as long as it has. It's been out forever. So Deadpool is almost, it's close to like the Elwynn effect where it will just keep selling because it's that good. And I get it. It's a great game, but like Joel doesn't even talk about it anymore. Oh, that's true. That is true. So Avengers Infinity Quest just didn't have a tail on it at all. No. It really didn't. I know some hardcore, like, comp players love it, but it's broadly seen as Elwynn's weakest game. And it shoots like a dream. The code, it feels a little soulless, that game. So it didn't really go wherever I wanted it to. Yeah, when I play it, I don't feel like I'm playing. I just don't feel like it's, I know, it's like the old X-Men game, too. It was, you know, the Gomez one. I just don't really. Except that one actually looks a little more like X-Men. The Avengers game, the tower shot's like the only thing that stands out to me. Yeah, it's just that Avengers Infinity Quest has such, the Avengers license has such a great feeling with the films that making it based on the comics that most people weren't that familiar with. And that was tough. Yeah, I think that's probably part of it. So all of these are going into the vault for two years minimum if they even come out. I do like it because as dealers, we're sitting on some of these titles. Stern's even sitting on some of these titles. So once they're done, they're done. Now, instead of saying, well, you know, I can always buy an old buyer a house of whores, people might say to themselves, I've really been wanting that, and I know that Stern's not making them anymore. So the ones that are out there new in box, they're at a dealer, and that's it. It encourages people to purchase that have been kind of waiting around for what's next. I like the idea. And thus far, I have seen increased sales in these titles already in the short time that it has been announced. So it's a good idea. I mean, I think Seth's been trying to just add clarity in general. So this is in line with much like the explanation about the plans on what's going to mean with new art packages and not being LEs and going to be premiums. I think there's been an attempt also to provide more clarity to the consumer about what to expect. And in the old vault days, you never knew when a new Ironman was or wasn't going to come out. And it just got frustrating for some people, and they started to expect certain things. And so I could see some minor benefit to the consumers here. Of course, some of this also is the wanting our cake and eating it, too, the value preservation aspects to it. that, again, we've seen things like Led Zeppelin, where they started to allow people to sell them for less money than what was the original minimum advertised price and stuff. And this is an attempt to still shore these up instead of doing what most people would expect for discontinued products, and that's clearance. Yeah, and they don't have any plans to do that at this point. I think this does uphold the resale of these. So it does have a benefit to the collectors and the enthusiasts out there. What it also does, and I didn't talk about this from a business perspective, for those interested, some of us dealers work really hard at what we do. We inventory games. You guys have heard me say this on a podcast. Our job as dealers is to inventory products for these manufacturers. If these manufacturers are the ones inventorying the products, at that point, that's a big cut to what dealers are helping with. And so what some of us dealers are like, get rid of some of these little piddly-ass dealers that aren't doing a damn thing. They might have a billiard shop and they sell five to ten games a year. Like, get rid of them. There's no need for them. So what this does is some of these little piddly dealers that are not putting any work, they're not answering the phone to help customers afterwards, they're just not doing much besides taking your order, this puts a little pressure on them. because over the last year, Stern has been able to inventory some of these things where these little dealers don't have to inventory a damn thing. They can call and be like, hey, I want one Deadpool shipped to me or shipped, you know. And what's the point of that? So this gives these people, once they're out, they're out. They can't just go to Papa Stern and be like, hey, I want to buy a Star Wars Pro for my third customer of the year. So it pushes them a little bit more and hopefully, you know, weaves out some of the – but then again, Stern just loves adding dealers. So I don't – See, I was going to say, why do it? Why so convoluted if that's the goal? They could just sever the relationships. Stern could. Just say, as of 2025, we're not continuing our relationship with you. I think it's because they're trying to balance it out and make everybody happy. Who cares? Why would they care? The same reason I say why do they add dealers when we don't need additional dealers. Yeah. No, I don't understand. No. So that's why I'm saying why. Yeah. It doesn't let them really sell more games than what's the – I don't see a business benefit to having a massive network of dealers. Yeah. So, yeah, there's some benefits to all of this, I believe. Okay. In addition to all of that and the vault program, And Stern Pinball is officially retiring. The Beatles, gold. I think it's the gold. I don't know if they've sold. I think they've sold all the other diamonds and stuff like that. And then Godzilla's 70th anniversary, the black and white. But that was an anniversary year. Yeah, that was already conveyed. So that's done. Also, of the games that are at Stern Pinball still in stock, there are some that are like Avengers Pro that's on this vaulted list. Iron Maiden Pro, Star Wars Pro, Star Wars Premium. they're no longer in stock at Stern. So what dealers have, that's what there is for the next two years. Bye-bye-bye. Someone help me get Avengers.
    22:32
    Speaking of Stern Pinball, Seth Davis was interviewed by the Loser Kid Pinball podcast. Did you get a chance to hear this? I did. It was a good interview. This is some good stuff. Seth Davis hasn't been on a lot of podcasts, so it's interesting to hear when a CEO isn't heard every other week on a podcast. Mr. Davis talked about making a bet for two years in advance when they have to develop new pinball games and products. When people ask about, you know, theme licensing. And he said the difficult part in pinball is you're making a bet. You're making a bet what will still be popular, what will be popular in two years from now. Eh. No? That's what I say. No, he's right, but it's such a nothing issue. If you want new themes. Who's saying new themes? This is a hobby that sells on nostalgia. This stuff is super easy. Which is why they lean that way. And, you know, I think car manufacturers, watch manufacturers are saying, hold my beer. They have to plan out a lot further than two years to do their products.
    23:39
    Probably because they don't just slap a new art package on something. But aren't they evolving the same product? So is pinball. It's still like, here's the same board set, here's the same display, here's this, and you just... Okay. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but what I'm saying is, especially with, there's no expectation.
    23:56
    My example would be... All we ever talk about is the old stuff we want because it's the old people who have money. No, the thing that I think brings up some interesting talk is people scream, why aren't we doing more modern stuff? Why aren't we seeing Taylor Swift? No, who's claiming this? I mean, a lot of people talk about that. Why aren't we seeing rap stuff? Why aren't we seeing Skeleton Crew, Star Wars? Why aren't we? No one's asking about why there isn't a Skeleton Crew. It's not even done with its first season yet. No one's saying that. But if they want it. And on a two-year cycle, it's still pretty nimble.
    24:33
    Walking Dead came out when Walking Dead was at its peak in popularity. If they feel good about Skeleton Crew right now. Mandalorian didn't have a huge delay. Yeah, it was out as of the end of the second season. Look, no. Two years is pretty nimble. It's very nimble compared to a lot of other manufacturing. Jack be nimble. Seth be quick.
    24:53
    I'm just saying he's right that they're making a bet, except the bets are all safe. All right, it's easier to stick with nostalgia. Don't try to do the John Wick. Here's a bet. Here would have been a bet, is that they had already committed to do Dune Prophecy before they saw the first episode. And then in two years, we're getting Dune Prophecy. Yeah. Then what do you do? I guess you do what George Gomez had to do when he saw Johnny Newmont. You call Seth and you call Ken Lee Jameson. Or you say to yourself, instead of doing Avatar Way of the Water, or instead of doing Indiana Jones, you know, the Curse of the Golden Finger, why don't we do... Toy Story 4. Raiders of the Lost Ark. When discussing the evolution of pinball consumers from location arcade players, you know, back in the 90s and back when there were arcades. Seth Davis, I love this quote. He said, look, gamers grew up.
    25:49
    The people who went to the arcades now have the money and they're at home more than they are at these locations and arcades. Like the nostalgia is the location and the arcade in and of itself. So you've got to, as people are aging, they don't do that anymore. And that same subset of people grew up and they're at home. And that's where they spend their money now. So bringing the arcade to their home. Yes. Duh. It's not pinball XP here, people. He also spoke of vault games and licenses running out. You'll like to hear this. He wants Lord of the Rings again, too.
    26:23
    The loser kids were like, what about Lord of the Rings? They started throwing themes to him. Yeah, they threw a lot at him.
    26:30
    That's right. Some of them were bad. I'm like, Scott and John, no, they do not represent all of us. No.
    26:37
    Well, I mean, they did mention Simpsons Snowball Party. That's fine. I don't think there's enough demand for it to be redone. I think Simpsons is a nostalgia of that theme. I mean, but that show's still going. Do we really want to risk making the bet? He's like, remake World Poker Tour. No. What? I know you'd like it, but we don't need it remade. No. He talked about his time at Disney. He said that he helped, this is Mr. Davis, worked on projects responsible. I like this because a lot of people were like, oh, he's just Disney streaming, and that's what he is, a Disney guy. That's what he's going to bring us. I like that he did discuss what some of the projects he worked on were those that mixed physical and digital products together, such as the AR lightsaber, Star Wars thing. So you have a physical toy and a digital interface, as well as Disney Infinity, where they bring toys to life. And it's a gaming platform. Yeah, my niece had some of those, and they played Disney Infinity. You'd have the little figures, and you could scan them in, and then you had them in the game. So I like that Seth Davis brought that up, because that is a great representation as to why pinball is a good fit for him, in my opinion. Also of importance for fit's sake, he worked at GE in manufacturing before Disney. So when people questioned why Seth Davis, guys, I think he's probably a pretty damn great fit. But only time will tell. Seth Davis also believes that they are not reaching the number of consumers that pinball could reach. We've heard this from George Gomez before. And enthusiasts are mixed about do we try to bring more people in? Do we try to make it more universally loved, or is it perfect for the subset of people that you have now and you shouldn't turn your back on them? It's kind of like the whole parental who gets the attention kind of thing. Seth said, sure, it's not going to be a mass consumer product like video games. He's aware of that, but in his opinion, there is still way too many people that just, they know nothing about what new pinball is or how it can even be consumed. the differences between pinball in 2025 compared to 1970. So do you agree? I agree with all of that. Yeah. I do think that it is the most exciting toy, physical toy, in the world, and not enough people know what it is in 2025. They know because they have these concepts in their mind of what it is in 1970. They don't know what it is in 2025. I think that it's like when people look at old muscle cars, it's different than this. I think this game has evolved into something almost arguably totally different. I see where you're coming from on it. Yeah, it's I mean, it is definitely a lot more developed and advanced than what I think a lot of people picture in their mind's eye when you tell them what a pinball machine is, assuming that they even think of a pinball machine when you bring them up. And that's mostly because, well, because, yeah, but with most people, they just, they think of the chimes and the dings, because that's kind of like the drop-in sound that TV uses for the same way you drop in a certain type of a sound for a phone. Like whenever people hang up on the phone in the movies and you start hearing the busy signal, which never happens with a phone. It was just weird things that have, it was just like the lexicon for this is how we convey something. So, yeah, I mean, I think you're right that the rules, for example, are a lot more in-depth, but that was driven by the – I think it's more driven by the home market than anything else. The problem is is that arcades, while they still exist broadly, don't use pinball anymore. That's a huge one. And so it's not – it doesn't have the marketing that it did in the 70s. In the 70s, an arcade was pinball, and then they started to have video games and pinball, And then it got to the point where, hey, look, why would I maintain something that requires all this effort when I can just have something and occasionally we have to change a board out or whatever. Sure. My last point to this is if you walk down the street and you ask people to describe what a video game is or to just discuss what video games people are playing or anything like that, I think in their mind they will think of things like Call of Duty. They'll think of Fortnite. They'll think of Super Mario. They'll think of Sonic. They'll think of all of those things. They won't think of Pong. I think that what Seth's trying to make here, the point he's trying to make, and I agree with him, is when you ask random people on the street what pinball is, they think of the equivalent of what Pong is to video games now. They think of old 1970, and video games has surpassed that archival, conceptual kind of thing, where pinball is not. Well, okay, I don't disagree with it, but as he noted, the markets are totally different. Video games are mass consumer products. Modern video games, dollar for dollar, are cheaper than when Pong came out. So people are, of course they know the modern stuff. The modern stuff is approachable. Pinball has only gotten more and more expensive. Yeah. And they don't have access anymore on location. That's why it used to be egalitarian. There just aren't very many places that route pinball nowadays. And we're in more of a resurgence than we were in, like, the mid-2000s, but it's not like it was when every arcade had a pinball machine. And people went to arcades all the time because you couldn't have that level of entertainment in your home. It just wasn't done. Which is why you've heard, listener Dennis and I, and especially me, say over years now, the importance of exposing this to the masses. and you're not going to do that through arcade because it's just phonies. You're not going to do that through a lot.
    32:42
    I've been screaming YouTube, YouTube, YouTube for years, so much so that I've made it my life. I've made it my career. And Seth alluded to that in the interview saying, we need to make it easier for people to purchase a pinball machine, for new people to purchase a pinball machine. And you do that through exposure of things like YouTube, the internet, that's how people and he even kind of gave a nod to the pinball media saying Scott and Josh it people like you that yeah that the advertising That what gets the word out We need to rely on a teamwork approach more than we have in years past which is why you're seeing things like inviting the media in, doing interviews and such. But we're not the right media.
    33:34
    Why not? Nobody who's not already into pinball listens to this show. Sure. Absolutely. We are not the right media. The YouTube space that covers video games and stuff, that is the right media. For a new audience, that's the right media. I disagree because I would say that we are the right media, but we're not stage one. We are the right media because when people type in pinball at YouTube, they watch the videos, they get interested, and very quickly they dive into everything pinball. and we, a product such as ours, this podcast, keeps people excited. We're the depth and breadth of rules of pinball excitement that you may not get with the teaser trailer. So I think we're still, we are that because you're not going to see the IGNs of the world. They're going to get you the big exposure or whatever you, you know, influencer based stuff. They'll get you the big exposure. They've got one piece. they're giving you one little piece to chew on. You know how it is in video games. That is not enough. You know how it is in watches. One little sizzle trailer of a Rolex is not enough to keep people engaged in a hobby long term.
    34:49
    You need more. Fair enough, but that side's not the part that needs worked. No, no, you're right. Yeah, it doesn't need worked. It's the mass exposure. For pinball, it's the mass exposure that's lacking. Not the hobby's self-developed, its own enriched media to continue the conversation.
    35:09
    That's interesting. So, Seth Davis, go listen to that interview. It's a really good listener. Also from Stern Pinball, we got some new code. Elvira version 1.1. What in the hell is this thing doing getting a new code update? Who knows? A substantial one. Just put it in the vault. They redid a wizard mode so that it has six stages. That's a lot of stages. Feedback on this has been crazy. I only wanted there to be four stages. Why are there six now? Stern has gone off the rails. Hire me. I could give you a dungeon and a dragon made out of plastic.
    35:40
    Booty rates. New code for Uncanny X-Men version 0.89. We still got a ways to go on that. They add a new graphics, future X-Men. Do we really? Because Jaws is up 0.9, isn't it? Oh, they're at, no. Much later than that, I believe. My Jaws needs an update. Yeah, you're right.
    35:59
    Insider Connect, that thing. It said .9. I thought, really? I thought 9.4 at least, if not. Oh, well, maybe there was a digit after it. I don't remember. Let's see. I've got to go see now. Let's see. Is Jaws really that? I'm like, shit, is Jaws really that? You might be right. Let's see here.
    36:16
    Yeah, they're .98. Oh. Jaws. So it's almost full developed. Well, you know, I can't win them all. That's right. It's all semantics. Numbers don't lie.
    36:28
    I guess not. But I do sometimes. I'd be like, what? 0.01 higher. What are you doing? Quit working on King Kong and get the Stark fix.
    36:40
    So Uncanny X-Men gets more skill shot stuff, light shows, et cetera. John Wick gets an update as well, 0.93. Or Dennis' conversion, 1.14. John Wick gets an added cash out during adversary battles. So a lot of work being done for the adversary battles, as well as general work on these battles. Adding over 80 additional speech call-outs from the films. That's a big one. And adding expression lighting effects to the visual countdown timer during lights out. Trademark. Very cool. Jersey Jack pinball, they're getting code update too, Dennis. I heard about this one, yeah. Back in my day, we had Pirates of the Caribbean. And we locked it just like Wheel of Fortune. It's not finished.
    37:33
    Poor Keith. Love you, Keith. Final wizard mode is now in the game. Break the curse of Pirates of the Caribbean. It's a five-ball, multi-stage mode with exclusive film assets. How many stages? If Stern did it, there would be six. Sorry If Keith Johnson did it There's 23 stations That you've got to go through To break the curse I don't know But I still Man I kind of want that game again I have I've not had any interest in playing it I've had an itch for one And It's just too expensive still For me to scratch the itch When are they going to put it in the vault? They need to run 250 of those I'd be good with that Chicago Gaming Company Speaking of running 250 Or something Yeah, running 250 into the ground They said they're beginning to ship Domestic Pulp Fiction LEs In early January So, next week or so January now I mean, we're at the end of December And they hope to ship all 1,000 Pulp Fiction LEs By the end of April or in Denison conversion next October.
    38:50
    My conversion is probably more realistic with them. It might be. I think they told us a small percentage of our batch of living out pinballs going out the week of January 6th, I think. So we'll see if that hits. Cactus Canyon Enhancement Package. We haven't talked about that for a little bit. This is quoted from their socials or this is from an email. I don't know. The long-rumored Cactus Canyon upgrade kit is in the homestretch with our engineers and programmers in the troubleshooting phase. The upgrade kit will complete Lime and Sheet's vision of the Cactus Canyon. It will include significant additions to the game code and a physical saloon mech component. I'm hoping we can do a full reveal in the first few weeks of the new year with plans to ship Q1, Q2 of 2025. And for the most part, that is your Pindustry News for this week. If we take a bird's eye view or an eagle's eye view, and we're up above the clouds, and we're looking down, and then we go into a black hole, all right, all right, all right, and we're looking at 2024 from the paradigm that is this visual masterpiece of interstellar, and we see all the slices of time and such. We never got a pinball machine, even two years after. I'm working on it.
    40:14
    What would you do if I made a home for an interstellar? That would be freaking stellar. It's cool. You wouldn't need any call-outs because the music will overpower them all. You can't hear any dialogue in the film. A little cornfield, upper play field. I love your dust mechanic. What if that dirt blows all over the play field? Yeah, tars, locking balls. Okay. 2024, a pinball year in review.
    40:42
    Here at the Pinball Show, we do our homework. We probably missed some things, but we're going to go over some of the main events of 2024, starting in January.
    40:51
    As we go back into the way back. You remember January 2024? I do, as if it was just a year ago. It was when Stern Pinball launched Jaws. Dun, dun, see, that went. Yeah. And that was also a time that Seth Davis said, look, we're going to go back to three cornerstone releases for this year. And everybody was excited. Back to normal. Everyone was enthused. We got even more than that, really. But I think five significant, what I would call. Yeah, but they weren't cornerstones. Sure. So we got Jaws in January. Also in January, because of Jaws, we got the whole Shark No Eat Ball gate. Remember that? I still thought that this was the most trite.
    41:35
    I still, I don't even want to talk about it. I both got it and I was frustrated by it. It was an example of fandom run amok to me. It was a, and I understand it because it's like, to them it was so obvious, but to do yet so obvious and thus you must do it, merged together into just a very, I don't know, entitlement. That's the word I want. There was an entitlement that people seemed to wield about the game, like they were the designer of it. And I just thought, you guys have stepped out of your lane. I agree with that. I'm good with that.
    42:15
    I just empathized that the game sucked, but it was really fun. And that's why I was, I guess, flabbergasted that people were so upset about that when the game played so well. And they had so many. It wasn't missing any of the, it wasn't like footprints on the sand and pirates, you know.
    42:33
    People pointed out that Roy wasn't in the art on the play field, but he's on the display. And so you had him in the game. And then Stern, of course, got cheeky about it and started giving like premium LE people a ball to put into the shark's mouth and stuff. So I don't know if they really should have trolled because that probably just egged things on. And there was that one guy who came up with the mod. He probably made a bank. But he didn't have the jaw. Oh, yes, you wanted to tell me something. So it gave a market for the entrepreneurial types to come up with solutions to a problem that wasn't really a problem. Of course, what happened to your chin? But, you know, the game was really good, and that's the thing that I took away from it. Also in January, Pedretti Gaming secured some Bally Williams licensing in partnership with Planetary Pinball Supply And we'll later talk about what came of that, but that's when that was announced. Also in January, Spooky Pinball launched their first accessory topper with the Scooby-Doo Interactive LCD bookcase topper. That was a first for them. Yeah, they were always up until then doing those really cool free toppers. That's right. And they did do the free topper with Scooby-Doo, but there was also an additional option, which we did not see go into Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. We saw the free topper, but not an additional topper. But then during Evil Dead, we did see another topper accessory. So this was the concept. This is the canary in the coal mine. That's right. True.
    44:04
    January also, we heard the rumors of Dutch Pinball maybe doing a limited run of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland based on the phone core concept from John Papaduke from like a decade ago. No. PX, PX, PX. Coming soon, we'll see. January, we also had bidets trending up, squirt, squirt, and JJP announced their new driver board upgrade. Which a lot of people then started just doing their own upgrade because they realized the components were very cheap. Is your flipper limp?
    44:34
    Do you want more? I heard good responses to the driver boards. People like them. Yeah, they do like them. There was a good response to that. And then February 2024 rolled along, and AP, American Pinball, announces they're going to use proprietary boards moving forward. They also hired some techs like Maurice, and then they started a streaming channel. And then they also insinuated that I was going to get sued by them. Did they or did just one person? Dayfix, Dayfix, yeah. Tortuous Interference. Yeah, Tortoise Interference. Tortuous. Yeah, Tortoise. Toitise Interference. Toitie. Toitie, Toitie. Yeah, that was shucksie and whatever it was. I should have looked at the numbers to see which one of our answers was the most popular this year. February, we also received the Haggis email.
    45:23
    This was the beginning of the great flush that started spiraling down the drain. Counterclockwise. Yeah, counterclockwise because of where they are in the southern hemisphere. Yes, an email that I believe I praised for its transparency, but also went, I don't know if I would have gone so far as to say we needed to recapitalize in the public email in the hopes that you would have someone come in and recapitalize. I do remember saying that, given that email, there's absolutely no way someone, if I had the money of an investor, would come in and just give it to Damien. I would have demanded full control at this point because clearly they didn't know how to run it. Later termed fixie and transparency. I think that's what the industry calls that now. transparency to a fault. Even consumers are like, what the fuck are you doing? So the dreaded Haggis email in February. Also February, Multimorphic announced the Princess Bride. Yeah, a great license grab. I actually think it's their best license that they've had. I think it's better than Weird Al. I agree. And I personally liked this license better than Labyrinth. I know you disagree with that. I disagree. But we have different touchstones. That's right. March then comes along in the spring, and American Pinball announces Barry O's Barbecue Challenge. Now, there was no trailer with this announcement, as I recall. There wasn't. That was weird. You know what? After playing the game, this was smart. We had yam cams. I mean, yes, and initially I was like, oh, these yam cams are making things not look good and stuff, but then I played the game, and I was like, you know what? Choosing not to show it was the best strategy.
    47:02
    So that was TPF time. March. We also had whatever the hell episode. We don't talk about this. 149.5 was a key experiment. It was David, Dennis, and I attempting to see how many Patreon numbers we could lose. Wow. There was a website I like to call it episode 0.90.
    47:25
    We had a couple I will. We had a couple of people who were like, All right. Never do that again. I'm unsubscribing. I remember when that episode came out, people were like, that is an asshole for making it 149.5 and not letting you guys do 150. The week later, people were like, oh, no, so I get that.
    47:50
    We love you, Dave. There were reasons. Dave just went to Disney. I'm jealous. But that was, yes, that was the episode we used to recap our predictions from right at the start of the pandemic. So from an intellectual standpoint, I'm still very proud of this episode. I wouldn't be. I know you wouldn't be. April, Pinball Brothers announced ABBA. Who didn't want that? ABBA. Hey, people know the music. It's one of their, but people knew, like, it's not Queen, but Queen wasn't a great game. Fernando. April also seen Dutch Pinball coming out with announcing DPX. Yes. So this was the part where it's like, okay, so the Alice rumors are sounding true, but Dutch Pinball is trying to shield itself from the blowback of tying into the Papa Duke. Yep, perfectly said. It was like this, we're going to do this boutique thing that it sounds like Melvin Williams was going to fund. Right, but they didn't want to contaminate any interest and demand in Back to the Future. Yep. A real cash cow. Later in the spring, in May of 2024, Stern announces John Wick. Mm-hmm. And thus the gun-traversy issue. Again, like the Shark Eat Ball thing. This one, though, people got, I don't know if it was just more vocal. I feel like I heard from more people complain about the Shark Eat Ball thing, but the gun-traversy was because it made it political. And it's a political election year. Sure. So sure. In a in a what you know, what was and has been for so many cycles now, very close elections in the United States. And it was just I just you know, I actually had this happen on a discussion I did recently on the live stream on my watch channel explaining I was I was pointing out twenty twenty four blunders in that industry. And one of them was a company that made a political announcement about the election. And it was like they're just like Thanksgiving. You want to get along at Thanksgiving. there are two things you do not do. You don't talk politics and you don't talk religion. That's what makes people hate Thanksgiving. And so you should stay away from those topics. And companies, broadly speaking, need to stay away from politics. And in this instance, Stern did not step into politics. The people who claimed to be pinball enthusiasts chose to make it political. Yeah, yeah. And then, well, around this time also, just from a cultural perspective, like this wave of woke was kind of falling out of popularity, so it gave the voice of a different perspective some weight. So, yeah, it was very political, that whole thing. And it also fell on a time where people could blame their disappointment with maybe John Wick is a theme to something tangible, like boom, or pricing in the market. Because if you listen to all these podcasts and all these videos on pinball, this pinball market has been crashing for four years now. So ever since the last COVID case, everybody's like, oh, it's doomed. This thing is on fumes. So it continued that narrative. But I've never understood just saying, like, I'm not into it because I don't like the theme or I'm not into it because I don't like the price. I don't see the point in contriving a controversy. I think people, they do get mad. They're upset about the things they're saying they're upset about. I don't think it's a proxy to make themselves look good or something. I would say a large percentage is subconscious, though. I have no idea. This was almost like the 180 thing with Jaws, where it's like, there's all this stuff about the gun controversy. This is one of the most violent licenses that Stern has done in quite a while. There were guns galore in the assets. the display assets. It just wasn't on the physical art. They, of course, explained why there weren't guns on the art, which whether you like that answer or not, of course, is completely up to you. But here was the thing. Everyone's focusing on the gun controversy and not on the fact that John Wick isn't fun to play.
    51:54
    It's the opposite of Jaws. Why care about a shark eating ball when the game is so good? Why care about there not being guns in the art when the game is so bad you shouldn't own it anyway? Because carp up, ball. I just I feel like I need to say I need even more time on John Wick but I tell you what I sure don't care to play it I still own mine well you're a dealer the statements by Dennis are just in a statement Stern so don't get mad at Zach no I'm fine with saying it yeah there's Dennis from Stern it was such I like that license too and I was so disappointed in my experience on this game You know what I'm disappointed in? Venom. See, I can say something bad. I'm very disappointed in that game. I don't get it. I still don't like it. Venom was ambitious. I like John Wick better than Venom. How about that? Okay. That's where I'm at. I do not agree with that. If I'm comparing Venom Premium and get to have the changing layout state, it felt like there was innovation. I can't think of anything innovative about John Wick. There's nothing more innovative than a fan layout, let me tell you. It changes when you pick different characters. That was the innovative part. Man, for locations again.
    53:06
    Well, no, they're getting the crowd. Why don't we make a game? I know that everybody loves modes. Let's make a game, hear me out here, that doesn't have modes. No! We've got modes.
    53:20
    Damn it, Dwight. Look, here's an experiment. I know. We like to call it Venom 149.5. When is Dwight going to graduate college? All these experimentations. What? Come on. You're kind of letting it. It's creativity flow. Start a retirement fund. A 401k. Let the creativity flow. All this experimenting. I feel like you're like the hippie that never graduates. Had those rules been combined with a more interesting layout. I know. Because of him, the evolution of pinball is real. I get it. But man. I'm glad it was put on a theme like Venom that I didn't care about.
    53:55
    Sorry, Hoddy. All right. Also, May. Oh, in May of 2024, Pedretti Gaming did formally announce Funhouse Remake. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we got that. You can jump a hot dog. We got a nice recreation of the original and then an LE version that updated the code 2.0. You get an LCD screen. You get all kinds of innovation, really, in that game based on its former self.
    54:22
    So, yeah, you got Rudy transformed into something, for better or worse, transformed into something entirely different, which is cool. Also, May, Ametron, the parent company of American Pinball, there was word that they were looking into going public with their company. Yeah. The relevance was the speculation as to, as a publicly traded company, would they want to continue to operate American Pinball, especially because it's, as we learned later in the year, has never made money. Yeah. Yeah, very true. And I think Dayfix said, we're not going anywhere. We're in it for the long haul kind of thing. Well, but there are buses and, you know, buses do bus stuff. There were some buses. We've got to keep this thing over 55. June rolls around in barrels of fun. We don't talk about barrels of fun a lot because there's nothing to talk about. They're doing the right thing. They're just making games. There's nothing to – Sometimes you feel bad when you – June was slow when you got this in the list because we didn't have anything to talk about. I feel bad for – I feel bad as a media person sometimes. Why? Because we talk about controversy. Like, American Pinball has got, they didn't even develop a fucking game in 2024.
    55:29
    Yeah, they put out Barry O's Barbecue. Put out fires. They put out a new game. This Barrels hasn't put out a new game in 24, so there's nothing to talk about. We only talk about the new shiny. My point being, oftentimes we report upon the fire. We should be promoting. People need to be protected from getting burned. We have to report on the fire. But I don't think we as media give enough credit to Barrels and what they have been doing. So, in June, they crossed 250 labyrinths built and over 750 sold. That's pretty big for a first-time, first-game company. It's a big milestone. Okay. Well, they get thanked with every sale. That puts money in their pockets. Very true. That's the thanks they get. That's a big thanks. In June into July, Flippin' Out Pinball offers refunds on Centaur deposits. Uh-oh. So we started not feeling great about Haggis Pinball as their exclusive U.S. dealer. Well, and the public, I remember at this time, they were making a lot of posts complaining about the state of Haggis, and no one knew anything about what was going on with Haggis since that email we already talked about. Yes. Pitchforks were out. They were saying. There were. Yeah, there were a lot of forks. We called it Forkgate. They said, extend your plates, and we will fill them. and then in July Stern announces the Godzilla 70th anniversary game as well as the retirement of Greg Ferris, legendary artist in pinball that was a big one, Godzilla 70th, that was a pretty big release, yeah but this has gotten to the point where it's like, okay so Stern's always just going to do the, hey let's do black and white with red highlights, that's our thing now this was Stern's answer to you son of a bitch has brought back another Ellie with Elvira We hate you. And they said, I thought you weren't going to do that again. They said, well, it's a premium. It's a premium. There was a little controversy. No, it didn't have powder coat. It didn't have mirrored back glasses. It doesn't matter. If people think it looks better than an LE, they get mad. I mean, guys, it's $96.99. This isn't $13,000. Are you mad that it's cheaper? Well, no, we're not mad about that. I mean, that's true for those that bought Alien and then saw the Ripley edition. No, we don't go into that.
    57:47
    In August, Haggis Pinball goes into liquidation without any liquid. Well, yes. Yeah, basically, yeah. I didn't see any liquid come out of that. So, yeah, Haggis. And I mean, did they formally say they were? I think pinsiders had to find out that they were. Well, I mean, the creditors would have eventually gotten their letters from the liquidators. But, yeah, there wasn't like a public announcement. They just, you know, packed up and left the factory. Yeah. And to date, I don't think anybody got anything out of that. I know I didn't. Womp womp. Also, August seen Sepia Gate.
    58:26
    People upset that their trains light color was a different shade of black and white than the play field.
    58:35
    So that was a thing. I don't know. August, we also finally got the Burials barbecue official trailer.
    58:41
    Thank you for putting that out. Oh, my God. I never watched it. What is going on? There was a lot of meat. That was a lot of meat. Drippy, drippy, moist meat. I just remember my first experiences on that game, and I was just like, what? Guys, what were you thinking?
    59:02
    Why? Choose multi-ball. Why was there not meat gate with the people upset about guns and upset about sharks? I was like, this, and I like barbecue, and this thing's repulsing me. The corn on the cob. Just basting it over and over.
    59:20
    Like they needed suey to come out on that play field. Start nibbling on them. I want to see suey make out with grandma. Just tilt it down. That's a lot of juice. August, we also, this was a cornerstone for this show. We received Professor Zach's intro class to marketing and sales. I would encourage people to go back and listen to that. I felt good about that one. That was a good segment. Also in August for the pinball show, Zach and Dennis predict timing for the next Stern Cornerstone. And Dennis was right. Yeah, some people didn't want me to be right, though. I think you're right by two days. Like two days. Yeah, who counts? A win's a win. Yeah. Members don't lie. Stern, don't reveal the new Cornerstone until January. Don't do it here. That's January. Like today. It's going to be January. September 2024, Stern announces the Uncanny X-Men. They also announced that going forward, all of their games were going to come with a one-year warranty. Even existing games. Like, that's great. Again, trying to appeal to that home consumer, get that barrier reduced, more clarity, more transparency. The reply and feedback on the launch of Uncanny X-Men, people were very excited. I was surprised at how excited they were. I've been hearing good things behind the scenes, but there was no gate with this one. Not initially. The problem was, again, a theme that people were tapping on. They were like, eh, it's like Foo Fight. Like, I don't know. But then seeing what Jack Danger and the design team over there was able to do, that's what excited everybody. Then you've seen Zombie Yeti artwork. Like, it just checked so many boxes that it sold a shitload of units. Everybody wanted Uncanny X-Men. And we'll see soon another game came out that kind of maybe slowed the progress of that or created a narrative to help slow that progress for, you know, for sakes of wanting something different. So September also, JVAP, that's when they announced Avatar the Battle for Pandora, a theme that nobody really wanted, but a launch that was so good that made people excited about this game.
    61:34
    Yes. The launch was sloppy, though. So if you were, people forget. Yeah, see, this one isn't one of the better JJP launches in my opinion. It was sloppy because they had a trailer that was like 20 seconds, but then they showed off the whole game in a 20-second trailer, but then they weren't taking orders until like the Monday after the weekend. It was really weird. Yeah, it was very strange for them. And then they ended up, that was the only trailer they had, but then they had a featurette piece, and that was great. But then no gameplay. It was kind of weird. September Spooky moved into another factory building. They do that every year.
    62:13
    It's just keep adding on. Yeah. Keep adding on. And then September's also when Stern announced their Jurassic Park Home Edition going into Costco, an agreement with Costco. And I don't know how that ended up. I wonder. We'll have to look into that. I've seen some people say they got the game way cheaper than it initially launched at Costco at. So I guess Costco didn't have to follow a map. Yeah, well, hashtag Costco. I mean, come on. You get that big warehouse energy, I guess. And then Stern also announced in September their rental program for offices. Now, I have not heard anything specific about that. Yeah, I think this was a pointless effort, personally.
    62:51
    October was big for pinball, Dennis. We had the 40th anniversary Chicago Pinball Expo. A lot of announcements, a lot of news in the industry, such as Dutch Pinball. officially... What's the X stand for? I still don't know. I want to say extreme.
    63:12
    Yeah, I don't remember. DPX launches Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. A lot of controversy there. The artwork alone was just a mess. Also in October, Barrels had shipped over 500 Labyrinths. So the little engine that could with their first game doing very well. Oh, in October, Pen-a-wee! There's a sale. Remember? Oh, the X stands for exclusive. Exclusive, okay. Which starts with an E, guys. Yeah, whatever. Maybe it starts with an X in Dutch. The 90s. Extreme. Yeah, no, that's what it reminds me of. The Pen-a-wee! Sale. The name that keeps on giving. It does. I love it. October Fest is retired, though.
    63:55
    No one cared. October. where we also got an announcement from Stern Pinball for Metallica Remastered. Now this. That's a big one. This was a launch. That was a really good, yeah. That was out of nowhere. Well, not out of nowhere. There was rumblings. There have been rumblings. But the rumblings were, you know, very rumbly. There was, oh, it's going to be a Spike 3. Oh, you know, all this stuff. Maybe it would be in the new year and be their first of the Spike 3s and all this stuff. But it hit perfect. Sales were good. Feedback has been great. That is something that's been so successful that Stern's like, yeah, we're going to keep doing that. We also, in October, Dennis Nordman, remember him clearing the air? Yes. Saying, wait a minute, that's not how it happened. Yes, his departure from American Pinball. He came out and explained. He apparently had finally heard a podcast that Mr. Fix from American Pinball had been on, I think, a while prior. I was going to say several months, but I'm not sure on that. But it had been a while, and he finally heard it. And he's like, that is not what happened. So he gave his perspective of what happened. October is also when I gave some official tiers to the different pinball manufacturers, you know, setting standards over here at the pinball show, like the S tier and the A and all that stuff. You know, researchers and analysts still use that today. Yes, I'm sure. Because their hobby is just dripping with them. What they'll end up doing here within a year, they'll start using it, not attributing it to me, and then, like, making fun of me for making, just, that's what this industry does. You know you've made it, Zach, when they will...
    65:33
    That's how you'll know when you've made it. I can't put that in here. What? Pin a ween. I can't put that in here. Pin a ween. Oh, shit. November. So, November 2024 rolls, and Turner Pinball, who the hell is Turner Pinball? Well, they sold out of all 100 units of their Ninja Eclipse that they plan to build. And they've since started shipping some of them. So good on you, Turner Pinball. November, CPAP machines start to trend up. And then Spooky Pinball launches Evil Dead. Very good launch. Very good launch and a lot of good reception from that product. But nobody's really played it yet. No. Hasn't been to a show.
    66:17
    But I haven't heard. That's like the one spooky game in a while or product that I haven't. You don't hear anything bad about it. November Oh mark this on your calendars JJP announced Pimble XP And now erase it off your calendar because you never going to hear about it again Coming to a location near you
    66:37
    And then December, here within the last month, the famous Day Fix interview with Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. That was a hallmark. He cleared the air regarding Nordman's clearing of the air. Sometimes Grandma gets hit by a bus. Sometimes. Is American Pinball going to be around in 2025? Well, that's a great question. That's a great question. Scott. Buses come in and buses come out. I want a T-shirt that says, that's a great question, Scott.
    67:03
    And with a bus under it. Oh, my gosh. And I want the bus to say, pin a ween on Scott. I was just thinking of the pinball show. We did our holiday give a ween event. Yes. People love the name of it. I know. They do love it. And then we got CERN announcing the vault program we talked about today, retiring Godzilla 70 than Beatles Gold, and CGC still hasn't shipped Paul Diccinelli. No. That was a healthy 2024.
    67:32
    It was a lot. We forgot the... Wasn't 2024... No. I was going to say the death of the award shows, but that was 2023 when all the award shows died. They're still trying to repopulate that shit back. Are they? Yes. I don't follow it. It was so much work to put together the award stuff. Yeah, it was. I mean, it was fun. I really liked the one we did at your pin barn, though. It was cool to get all the people together and everyone helping out. So from like an activity event, it was really fun to execute on, but it totally burned me out. It did, and we got no feedback. People were like, what is this shit? No, and again, I kind of get it because there's probably a lot of things I've consumed and I don't provide feedback on. and I think it was Don who used to host the Pinball podcast who once said he reaches out a lot to, like, you know, podcasters and developers and stuff because he goes, I know you don't get a lot of feedback, and that's why I like to try and do it. They've got no manufacturer supports that we – No. Except for Spooky. Yeah. They didn't have a game eligible, but they gave all kinds of giveaways to them. No, it's just – yeah, I mean, I guess it's been long enough and with no intention of reviving it. And obviously when we launched it, there was all this stuff about, well, why are you doing it? The Twippies exist. And we finally got people educated on, like, the differences in approach we were doing. Remember the Twippies had a couple just real shit years. Productions. It just sucked. Yeah, from a production standpoint. We even got, like, better views and stuff. And then, yeah, still nobody. I mean, I'll be blunt. Yeah, it's not. I'd say I felt it was a little disheartening to do all that, send trophies to many crushers. It was on the constant. I was proud of it. We did good. And then they don't ever even talk about it. They didn't say they got the trophies. They don't even share them. I'm just like, guys, I like to share pictures of my Christmas presents. But I just, it was just, they didn't care, so why should we? Exactly. And the whole point was to celebrate the industry. And if they don't want to be celebrated, then who are we to tell them they should be? And I'll tell you what, my stress in the winter now is way lower, so I don't have to work on that. So much better. And I give credit to anybody that tries to do it or to steal an idea that was owned by somebody else and to continue just running with it. Go for it. Best of luck to you. It's like driving a stolen car.
    70:02
    Speaking of award shows, let's do the pinball show awards. This is all it needs to be anyway. The experts, who knows pinball better than us? Besides probably a thousand people. But, you know, we know these things. We do a podcast. Aren't we experts just by doing a podcast? I think so. Probably. We've met the 10-year David's Fix criteria. Yeah, we've been in this hobby a long time. Dennis, how long have you and I... How long have we done podcasting together? Oh, gosh. Episode eight, I think. I don't remember when that, I don't remember what year that was. Jeff Patterson gets credit for having us do that episode. It's so long ago. I've had hard drives that have burned out since then, and I don't have the other. That one, I remember we were doing a whole, if I remember it right, we were doing a whole list, and we kept doing different voices, and I ran out of voice halfway through the list. because you did your Gandalf. Oh, yeah. That's right. We were doing a top ten or something, and we were doing each one as a different voice. August 6, 2018. Has it been that long? Six and a half years? It's been a long time. Shit, man. Six and a half years you and I have been podcasting. You know what? We deserve to be experts at this point. Through the numbers and the awards and stuff, we're the most popular pinball podcast in the industry. So much so that at some point we probably won't be. We've been around doing this so long. And that, according to the old show notes for that episode, that was when Deadpool had been confirmed. Oh, wow. Spooky had talked about how they had tried to get the Godzilla license and Stern took it from them. Yeah, I remember that. Yep. And we're like, who's going to make a Godzilla? And the Pinball Hall of Fame was getting ready to do their move to the strip. I bet a lot of these listeners weren't even around that long. They weren't even born yet. These are the best of 2024. for sure. Now, in this discussion, what are we going to make eligible? So that's a little bit subjective. We're going to try to be consistent from where we were last year, if you guys listened to our 2023 Best Of episode. I think it's 144? Is that episode 144? But we're going to include this is probably the latest game we're going to include, was Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Because it came out in December. At that point, nobody had played it. We did not include it last year, so we're going to include this year with the likes of Jaws, The Princess Bride, Barry Hill's Barbecue Challenge, Ninja Eclipse, ABBA, John Wick, Funhouse Remake LE, The Uncanny X-Men, Avatar, The Battles for Pandora, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, and Metallica Remastered. Now, there's some caveats here as to what each one of these games is even eligible for. Let's talk about the categories, and then we'll talk about the eligibility specifications here. Best sound and music, best call-outs, best animation display, best lighting, best art, best toys, best innovation, best topper, best theme, best theme integration, best rules, best design layout, best launch, best accessory, best surprise in general or surprise game, Best high-end product. I like that category. Most improved or best improvement. The comeback. What game from 2023 has made a comeback, has improved that much to where it's shown the best growth? And then overall best game. That's a good subset of categories, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. For those of you who have some fun categories that you think you'd like Dennis and I to opine upon, message us at thepinballshow at gmail.com, and next episode we may just do so. So if you have a cool category that you want us to do, let us know. Now, we will say that, like, Funhaus Remake, that is not eligible for Best Toys because there's nothing really different. No, they don't count toys. Best Theme, it's already been a theme. Best Design and Layout, the layout has not changed. Same with Metallica Remastered. It is not eligible in our awards for best sound and music. Pretty much the same. I know there's extra songs, Dennis, but... Yeah, they added a couple songs. The bulk of it is the same. Best call-outs, there's new call-outs, but the bulk of it is the same. Best toys, pretty much the same. Best theme, best rules. I know, Ray Day, I'm sorry. And what you've added is fantastic. But the structure of it all is Lyman stuff. and best design and layout. It's the same. Not eligible. Also not eligible in its entirety is Godzilla's 70th anniversary.
    74:54
    I don't know what we... But sepia art. Yeah, we didn't include Elphira's blood-red kiss last year either. As well as Evil Dead. I don't think that belongs here. It'd be different if it was like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. At least people got to play that at the show. I guess, but that was only at one show, and the game is not shipped yet. Believe me, it's fine. Okay. It's fine.
    75:21
    It deserves to be here. But Evil Descent is not. Okay, that's fair. So we're consistent. And for those of you wondering, well, I know, but what's the worst of the year? Just stay tuned here.
    75:39
    So let's start with best sound and music. Now, I dislike this category because my opinion on best sound would be different maybe than my opinion of what game held the best music. And Call House is separated. But I don't think sound in general deserves three awards.
    76:04
    So we can make this one award. I don't even care. But if we're just doing sound and music, for me, Dennis, the award goes to the Uncanny X-Men by Stern Pinball. Oh, for the synth wave stuff? I really think it fit well. And I argued when people were like, no, get rid of that. And that was the best music, and then they put it into a multivariate. But overall, not so much the music, because the music was cool. But I think people undervalue or underestimate the ability of Stern pinball audio engineers to have a dynamic range of great sounding effects. Spinner sounds, target hits, physical manifestations of audio feedback in a pinball machine. It's just sound engineering on the effects are second to none when compared to the other manufacturers.
    76:53
    And it hits really, really well, in my opinion, on the Uncanny X. Well, I'm not a huge fan of this category either So the way I approach it is No one buys a game because of sound effects They might buy a game because of music And so because of that I do the biggest cop-out that everyone Maybe not everyone Metallica's not eligible And since Metallica's not eligible And Elton John was last year It's ABBA Oh, you're mine I'm the perfect line Honey, I'm killing the breeze Take a chance on me Because, hey, if you want a pinball machine and all you care about is it being a playable jukebox, there you go. That's the only one left. Wow. And those songs are known and everything else is original. Well, we're going to get some discussion around the industry.
    77:43
    I say it used to come up early on with the Twiffies and people would be mad. Why is it always a band pin winning? Because those songs are popular. Yeah, because it has the best music. That's true. That's right. Your little tinkle-tinkle sound when people hit the slings is not why people buy games. I think I could argue that even Ab is not the best music. You could argue it. You could argue it easily, but you know what? It's the one I picked, so that's what you get. Okay. I think it would be cool maybe if for some reason you and I agree on one of these. Maybe that's the official pinball show designation of that category. Otherwise, it's just Zach and Dennis give their takes here. I like it. Okay, so Best Sound of Music. My runner-up was Avatar, because it was a very epic soundtrack that they used for that. I think that was good. So that got a nod as well, but I can't even mention where it's at. All right, another category I really care nothing about. Best Call-Outs. This was hard for me just because I don't think any were beyond fantastic.
    78:45
    What did you go with on Best Call-Out? I went with Jaws. Because again, well, because they got an actor from the movie. I'm the master from the movie. So with Dreyfus doing it, I don't think they're the best call-outs or anything. But, I mean, if you're driven by wanting that aspect, if that's part of the immersion for you, I thought it was a really stellar example. My backup would have probably been Looney Tunes. That's where I went with the award. I gave it to Looney Tunes. Yeah, I can see that. They got the individual who does those voices for some of the cartoons and stuff now. They got them to do dedicated pinball call-outs. And some of them are good. Like, the extra ball. oh, yeah, I did see an extra ball, like stuff like that. I like that the best. And as I'm going through, there's just nothing that stands out. I'll give a nod to The Princess Bride just because of all of the film call-outs. Yeah, I mean, they have, like, the whole movie. Yeah, and those are fantastic for those who love that film. But the work went into Looney Tunes, in my opinion, for the best. But I can see Dreyfuss' Joel stuff, too.
    79:48
    The best animation display. This is what we see on the screen Whether it's How they bring in the assets from films Or concerts Or how they manufacture and animate Their own UI For the pinball machine For me on this one Dennis This streak cannot be broken Quite yet for me It's still Jersey Jack pinball's avatar The battle for Pandora It's just still the cleanest The most beautiful And they feel like they just make They make the most original animation pieces, and they know how to present them. They're just beautifully done. And it helps to have a big screen, high-def screen, to show it off on. Yeah, Avatar was my pick as well. Oh, so we've got one. We did. We do. Best animation display officially from the Pinball show is Jack Pinball's Avatar. I gave a nod to Jaws because of the 8-bit little video mode that they did. Oh, with the shark hunter? Yeah, that was really good. It was a clever mode, but... You know, I give some credit to that. But that also follows in code and rules, too, though. Like some programming. So I still had to go Avatar. I'm waiting for the year that's turned. They were closed this year. I mean, even with the beauty of Metallica remastered animations, they're getting close. Because I would say that Avatar was not even close to Jersey Jack's strongest animation display game. But its lowest is still barely. It still looks so good. Bottom line is it still just looks so good. It's getting close. I think Stern's going to usurp them here soon. Or maybe some other manufacturer. I don't know.
    81:39
    Best lighting. What did you... Oh, Avatar. Easy. Same here. All right, we got another hit. In fact, that's the only thing I readily think about when I hear Avatar is I go, oh, yeah, that's the one where they did all the really cool lighting effects. Oh, and they were really well done, too. And again, JJP has been doing really strong lighting effects, like, as of at least Wonka. It's just hard to be, especially with the integration and the development of the Hot Rail system. They've got the Hot Rails everywhere. They've got lighting on the CE behind the back glass or behind the head of the game under the cabinet. It's beautiful. A lot of UV work this time on both models, but especially the CE. And even if one could argue that the UV wasn't as impactful as something like a Stranger Things, it still was there. It still offered something different. Yeah, and I also think part of the thing with Stranger Things is, well, one, And it was sort of the first where there was this huge association with a major UV element. But also, I think they just get, maybe this is mean because it is really well done UV, but I think Stern gets a little too much credit because they hid that for so long until after the game was out that there was a UV element. So everyone was like, what? Gasp. That was a cool surprise. Yeah. So it was more, I think people more celebrate the surprise of it than anything else. Yeah, that's a really good point. I give a nod to Metallica Remastered with this expression lighting. It's a concert. It works really, really well. And they integrated some UV on Metallica Remastered, too. But there's still something about the number of RGB bulbs that are used in a JJP game and how much time and programming they put into their lighting effects. Still, it's like animation display. I can see Stern catching them at some point, but it's not there quite yet. Okay, so we agreed on that. We did. Let's shift over to speaking of how something looks in the lighting. Let's talk about the artwork. Now, the artwork is very subjective, but most people can tell something that looks good from something that doesn't. So I think we may agree on a couple of these that look great. I went with the Yeti. I went with Uncanny X-Men. If you look from afar, it's still just so, so well done. And it still screams pinball. Now, before we get to yours, I will say this. I was close to saying Metallica Remastered. A lot of listeners are saying, why wouldn't you do Metallica Remastered? That thing was a beauty. And it was. The cabinet, the back glass was phenomenal. It almost pushed me over the edge. But as a whole pinball package, I think it fell a little short on the play field. because they get that artist that does the gig posters and stuff. They knew how to do a cabinet and a back glass. But when you go to a play field, that's a whole different story. And the expertise of a zombie yeti, Jeremy Packer, is what put me over the top for the Uncanny X thing. What about you, Dan? I went with Avatar. I could see it. I get it. I think Leah Faske, I know it was her first game, her first pinball game. She'd been doing Hearthstone art for Blizzard Entertainment for a while. But it was a refreshing look. Her style is very different. I'm going to maybe loosely describe it as watercolor. But well-defined. The shots were all still identifiable. It's all pretty well laid out. Metallica would have probably been my backup call. I like the art on Uncanny X-Men to a degree. but I have comic book panel fatigue at this point. I get it. Okay.
    85:25
    And, you know, there wasn't one... You know, one of my biggest complaints I've always said about things like Uncanny X-Men is instead of getting a couple of really big centerpiece characters, there are always a bunch of little characters.
    85:38
    So... Yeah. Smart people think alike. And we got some big old pictures of the Avatar Navi people in the tree.
    85:48
    Phenomenal. You can't stand over that game and think, damn, this is so pretty. It is a very, very pretty game. And I also want to really, like, just celebrate an art package that didn't feel like they turned the saturation up to 11. Oh, now. The desperation. Come on. The plebeian approach to appeal to pinheads. Do you think we'll see her work again in pinball? No, I do not. Oh, okay. I would welcome it. I would, too, but I just, I think it's a one and done. The feedback I will offer Leah if she gives two shits is, I think, and this might be a licensing thing, I think the choices of what she used or that team used as subject matter on the side of the cabinet and the back glass, what little area there is, but especially the cabinet sides, I really think I was a swing and a miss there. Like, there's so much to show off in Avatar. And on the Playfield, it was perfect. But you can't put that big-ass whale on the LE and scream. That does not scream Avatar to me. It screams Avatar 2. And even at that, there's so much cooler stuff. So, now, I just, even on the CE, it just seems a little bit generic.
    87:09
    Yeah. So, that's that for me. When it comes to toys, though. Now, toys is different than innovation. Toys, mechs, what kind of stuff is in the game? For me, it was without a doubt, and I would argue until I'm blue in the face, there's not even a close second place. It's the Uncanny X-Men by Stern Pinball. This thing was loaded with the coolest representative toys and what we want in pinball. We want to battle a pinball machine, and what better than a robot sentinel that comes out of the playfield that you can interact with in multiple ways, and the extensions of their hands being on two ramps that you can interact with both ways. Competition players that bitch about it going down the middle whenever it swipes that wire for them. Fucking nudge better, dude. This is what you do. This is why you're so good at fucking pinball. Point Chaser, it's down Candy X-Men, and sadly where you at, Jersey Jack? You weren't even close in this category, and that is a shame. They complained to a lot of people about playing the Pandora game. Ugh! They didn't feel empty, was the word I often heard described. Even if they liked the geometry, they just felt like there wasn't a toy to really work with. Yeah. Where did you go on Best Poison? Yeah, Uncanny X-Men. There it is! Specifically, I felt, because we were talking about toy, I want to cite it. So I'm going to cite the premium LE with the racing sentinel head. The head itself, like, no. That alone wouldn't have done it. Really? I probably would have picked the Jaws head popping out over the premium Orca instead.
    88:49
    It's combined with the hands that impact the ramp shocks. Okay. But think about the ball. You hit it. It comes up. You hit its chin. It goes down. And then it has a kicker. That's a three. The lighter sentinel LE ball. Well, that's another. See? I have to listen to the people. And the couple of magnets. They didn't have magnets. Come on. So, yeah, I mean, it's just, again, it's a nice toy. But the thing that got my attention when Uncanny X-Men was revealed were the hands. I'm not saying that that's the most fun toy, but in terms of an interesting toy, it was interesting. Oh, yeah. Very much so. To me, it's all one thing. because obviously the Sentinel, that's supposed to be his hand, so the Sentinel toy is the toy. The next category was tough for me, listener, because best innovation. If I'm looking through these games, Dennis, nothing screamed innovation to me. It's a hard category most years to be fair. It just didn't scream innovation. Where did you go on this? I ended up doing Avatar again. Okay. This time I'm going to cite specifically the CE version, and it's because of the decision to use three different types of UV reactive beams with a bioluminescent art. I don't think we've seen it before in pinball, so I counted it as an innovation. Okay. All right. I did not go with Avatar. Actually, I'm not a JJP fanboy like Dennis. I went with Keith Elwin's Jaws. What did it innovate other than sharks not eating balls? Well, it innovated an idea that should have been done that wasn't. That's new. If you pick a Jaws and I'm going to make a pinball machine out of Jaws, what are you going to do? Well, the shark's going to eat the ball. That's what sharks do. What if we don't let it eat the ball and we twist? That's, you know. And what do the British say? Or the Australians? Innovative? I can't even say it like they say it. Instead of innovative, they say an innovative. Oh, innovative. Yes. Or how they say aluminum? Aluminum? Aluminium. Yeah. What the hell are you guys talking? You guys aren't even speaking English, and we're the ones that bastardized the language. All right. So I went with Jaws because of the little flipper lock. Well, you got the little flipper lock. I do like that. That's innovative. And then you have the little 8-bit mode. That was cool. I'm stretching here. There wasn't really anything innovative in any of these games.
    91:15
    I don't know. And then I give a nod to the Uncanny X-Men just because it wasn't innovative, but it was just very different than what we have seen with layout for decades. So that was, in a sense, because of the age of it, it was innovative. But, yeah, nothing really here. This is my category, best topper.
    91:37
    It's so weird. As we look through all these categories, they seem like common categories that you would use for anything, right? Yes. I wonder where all that started. I don't know. It's almost like they got it from something. I don't know. The Twippy? No. It was almost before that. It was like YouTube reviewers that had these categories that they graded. It's weird. They're so old, Dennis. Best Hopper. Now, we don't have Evil Dead in here. So, I don't think anything's going to beat Evil Dead next year. It might be the best Hopper ever made. That's very presumptuous.
    92:12
    Well, if I think it's the best Hopper ever made, it's going to be hard to beat that. But we'll see. We'll see. So, that's not in here. Metallica is in here, but it didn't get picked.
    92:22
    A lot of people are singing Avatar right now. They're like, the Avatar CD? That's cool. I actually didn't give it to Avatar. I give it a runner-up. I went with Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Yeah. Believe it or not, I think thematically, that was really the only interesting thing on that game for me. And I love that it was a cat, So it very much had a personality to it. And the video eyes that moved around and could do spirals and different things. The sculpture was beautiful. It was pug-like, but it was still pretty. And overall, I feel like it can't breathe. But Avatar for me was cool But we have not seen enough programming in it To make it stand out It feels like Mandalorian Topper Having said that I went with Avatar Because it was cool And the cat on Alice Might have been my number two But it didn't have the right number of claws It's two claws Okay Both of them were very cool And then the other topper Like John Wick still doesn't have a topper Uncanny X-Men still doesn't have a topper So I don't know Because we're getting into the heart Of what people care about in pinball It's the theme For me I'm going to go with this one I think unquestionably the best theme In pinball for 2024 is Jaws We've been waiting for this for decades Everybody talked about Jaws what about you?
    94:06
    no, Jaws would have been my number two how? well, maybe even my number three after even Princess Bride no, I went with Uncanny X-Men that's still a solid thing it's, yeah, and I get it I think most people would disagree with me but the reason why I mean, I think they would agree with you that Jaws was the best theme, but here's the thing that's, you know, Jaws only, I should have probably picked Jaws because it only supports my argument from earlier in the show where we were talking about the interview with Loser Kids and Seth and his whole thing about this two-year development cycle. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. You guys just want old shit themes anyway. Oh. And so I've only said that for snark reasons. I actually greatly enjoy the Jaws film. It's one of my favorite films. But broadly speaking, talking about mass appeal, growing pinball, Kenny X-Men is the right answer. You have fans from the old TV show from the 90s. You have fans for the new cartoon that's on what Netflix or wherever it is. You have people that actually know the comics. You have people that were fans of the X-Men from the Fox show. And you have people that are just in general fans of Marvel. So from an audience, it appeals to more age groups on a variety of multiple media fronts, whereas Jaws is only one thing in the movie. And that is why I feel as a theme, it was the best theme for Pinball. Yeah, I'm not going to spend time arguing because it's Jaws. I don't know what to tell you about that one. What about theme integration? X-Men also. Okay. All right. This one was tougher for me. Yeah, theme integration was tough. Because it was X-Men followed by, for me, followed by Jaws. Okay. My runner-up was Jaws as well. Okay. So with Jaws, again, especially when you look at the LE model and stuff, you've got the Orca ship and all of that. It did feel like a world under the sea. Yeah. It was a really good looking game. But with the whole Sentinel and the tie and the past future and the way they integrated that aspects of Uncanny X-Men and the rules combined with the look of the game. It's just like, that's the with the giant set and all that. Yeah, it's embracing that not just X-Men but the story they wanted to tell and the rules is conveyed on that play field and with those toys. So because of that, I feel it was the best integration. Because I couldn't count Evil Dead. Yeah.
    96:32
    Speaking of Evil Dead and Spooky Pinball, I'm giving the award to Spooky Pinball with Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I think that the one thing that set of games did, not so much Looney Tunes, but more so Texas Chainsaw Massacre, was it did bring, they brought a lot of what that film was into physical form for the pinball machine. A meat grinder? Where are you going to find a meat grinder in Pinball? They put it in that. They put the hooks. You hook the ball in the back. They have a stellar door that slams. They have Leatherface spinning around maniacally like he did at the end credits of that film. There's a freezer with a chick that pops up out of it. I don't know how you can get more theme integrated than all that. Plus, it was like gnarly and nasty looking of a game. Just like the film was. So, for me, integration anymore is a spooky pinball thing. They've kind of taken it away from Stern and JJP in a lot of respects. So I'm giving it to TCM. Congratulations, spooky.
    97:40
    Rules. That's why we keep coming back. We don't want just a, you know, 90s rule study, start a multi-ball and get a jackpot. What do you think the best rules were in all of 2024? Jaws. Even only being .9. A hundred percent. We're hitting both on that one. Absolutely. And was there anything really close? I was having a hard time thinking of a runner-up. No, I don't have a runner-up. It's so well-rounded, and that's... Man. I don't think it's just Keith Elwin that does these layouts. I think it's the rules team that he's attached with, which is still him, too, to some degree. Yeah. It's the rules that's on the games. There's been for basically every game of his. There's stuff around every shot. There's so many different ways you can play it. So do you want to try and go for your Jaws multiball? Are you wanting to hunt for the various sharks? Do you want to do the knot tying? Do you want to play the modes like Pipit?
    98:38
    There's so many things all over that play field to go and work on. And a lot of it's cumulative. Like, you know, all right, I'm going for a Mako shark. So I'm going to do these shots that are also working towards these other modes that I'm doing that are going to allow me to eventually try and reel that shark in. You're collecting teeth that you can use later on as a store system. That's cool. And then, I don't know why, but his team always does the challenge modes the best. Those little sub-modes that you can start out.
    99:06
    Yeah, it's easily, Jules, and like you said, not even at 1.0, and it's still better than all the other ones. If I had to pick, like, what's the next avatar, I guess? Yeah. Just because it's pretty much complete. So, some of these games like John Wick's not complete. Uncanny X-Men is not complete. Yeah, X-Men wasn't remotely going to win. No, no, no, no. Even though I like the direction it's going, it is not close yet. Best design and layout. So for me best design and layout I going to give it to the same person as I did last year And I think deservedly so Maybe some controversy here but for me easily is the uncanny X Jack Danger It's just a breath of fresh air when I get to play something that feels like even an evolution from Elwynn, for better or worse. I just love shooting Foo Fighters and I love shooting uncanny X-Men. And yeah, a lot of the reason I come back to games is the way they feel and the way they shoot in some of the shots. That's why I like Star Wars so much, like some of the speed and some of the hyperloop. The Uncanny X-Men has a couple of shots that still make me smile, even if I've played that game a hundred times.
    100:26
    What about you? No, Jaws. No, I totally get where you're coming from. Here's the thing for me. When I look at Foo Fighters, I see an original layout. When I look at Uncanny X-Men, I see gold wings. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's not even close to gold wings. I see elements. Because they shifted over the Italian bottom? Is it? No, no, no, no. Have you seen any? I want to see that many. There's not one link shot on gold wings. There's like four. There's gold combo shot link shots. Am I not saying the right game?
    101:04
    I think so. Gold Wings. Right, with the offset and it's got the danger room and all that. No, I'm saying the right one. Yeah, it's similar. But I'm saying like link shots, like you shoot the shot, it goes across the play field to this shot. Right, right. No, no. Don't get me wrong. Uncanny X-Men is a way better game. Gold Wings was not a good game. But I still see the skeleton of it. And I look at Jaws, I don't see the skeleton of anything. I don't see the skeleton of a prior Keith Elwin game either. That's true. Just like all of his games have felt different to me. Other than his fondness for, like, captive ball, I can't really say there's a whole lot layout-wise that feels samey to me coming out of either Jack Danger or Keith Elwin. But I feel Keith Elwin didn't use another person's design as his basis.
    101:52
    Not to mention I cannot let a game that can't even properly plunge win. I want to dive into that so much as an argument because I could so just refute both of those easily. No, you can't. The plunge, they're sending out kits. So it was a flawed game. Let's talk about air balls with Jaws, Gabe. I'm not getting air balls. Well, because it's got fixed. But let's talk about the kits that had to go out because the lip of that fin.
    102:18
    Plenty there. Engineering failed Keith. Okay. All right. Yeah, both of them are phenomenal. I love the way that Jaws shoots. I like the chances or the risks that he took with that. He is my runner-up. It was close. Same here. That was my runner-up. So, yeah, okay. We're on the same. What about, before we get into the big dog, the best game, what about the best game launch? We've not done this before. For me, the best game launch, and I'm biased because I've been associated with some of these components of these game launches. Yes, very biased. But for me, it was flawed. It was flawed. It's flawed, and I know what you're going to say, and I can't believe you're going to say it.
    103:06
    Avatar. No. Compared to the Elton John launch alone, this was a flawed launch. The Elton John, they didn't do a featurette. Yeah, but people don't broadly need that. It is nice. Like, look what, not to toot my own horn. Right here, horn tootin'. Look what evil dead the launch was this year. with that featurette and an actual full trailer instead of a 20-second trailer. Like, but just the amount of detail and production quality that went into the 20-second leaked sizzle on Avatar. And it did a really good featurette, production-wise. Content-wise, maybe not. So are we only judging the production? I don't really know exactly what I'm supposed to judge for that. This is broad because it so is as to theme integration and stuff, but also what the reception does to what its purpose is. So to me, I'm going to say this out loud, the launch of Avatar, in my opinion, helps sales more so than what the game deserves. Okay, interesting.
    104:22
    People aren't buying Avatar right now, is what I'm saying. But at that launch, people were saying, this is better than Uncanny X-Men. Okay, well, because, I mean, here's an example. This is not my pick, but... So I thought about Uncanny X-Men, because, like, when they did the teaser and they teased the boy, that generated... Yeah, it hit hard. That's my backup, yeah. But if I consider Best Launch broadly, and I remember the first reveal stream, I'm like, that hurt it. And so I'm like, so it wasn't my pick. I picked Metallica Remastered. And I don't like picking it because it's cheating. I feel it's cheating because the gameplay is already known. The design and the rules, they're already understood. So all it had to do was – But that's okay. That goes into it. So that's – even though everyone knew that this theme was coming, when they saw it coupled with the art package, coupled with what the enhancements in terms of rules and songs were going to be, it was just really broadly seen as, wow, they took the original game and kicked its ass. And they had to present that in a way that made you feel like that. Yes. And that helped. So I felt overall, considering the whole gamut, and acknowledging that Metallica got away with it in the sense that they didn't have to do a gameplay reveal. It didn't matter. Everyone knows how Metallica plays. So they didn't have to work as hard as Uncanny X-Men and Avatar had to work. But I still just think, in terms of reaction, and as I heard, as my spies have told me, Once that Metallica reveal happened, and part of that launch also was like the decision of Stern to limit the LE to 500 units. Oh, yeah. It's just the nomo was more real with that game than anything else, and I've heard it's been outselling X-Men. It has been. It worked. It's the best launch. And that's not to say looking at the best game launches. Some of these were solid game launches. Oh, sure. Some of them were just. Outside of Berrios, I don't know. No, there was no shit ones. No, there were some bad ones. Well, maybe Abba, too. Ninja Eclipse, does that really get... Does it count as a... Because it's been trick... That's what I'm saying. It wasn't the best launch. They've been like... Turner Pinball's been like crowdsourcing the refinement of that game, which was for the game's benefit, for sure, but... Yeah, I don't... But because of that, the launch itself is essentially tainted. Alice's Adventure of Wonderland was a shit launch. Well, they completely sold out. It was a shit launch. In America, it completely worked... I don't think... It completely did everything it needed to do. No, my argument is... That should probably have been my runner-up. That launch did not sell that game. Other things sold that game. It was not the launch. That's a fair argument. That's fair. As Joel would say. Like, Funhaus remake was not bad, but it wasn't all at once. It wasn't... There were some errors there. The problem with Funhaus, in my opinion... It didn't have a sizzle. Well, it's not innovative enough. All you had was a new... I mean, they had all the rules and stuff, but the only thing that I think people walked away from the new version was regarding the art. And, of course, because the original art is so iconic, that was very polarizing. Yeah. Princess Bride, I don't remember that launch.
    107:29
    Looney Tunes, Sexy Chainsaw, those are always going to be weird launches because you're launching two things at once. So I think it was solid. Again, I'm biased, but I think it was solid having a featurette with them for the first time. I think that hit very well. I think the sizzles were solid. But it felt more like a standard Stern release to me, like a Jaws or something, where it did the job. It didn't, like, I don't remember it. Like, holy shit.
    107:54
    So, yeah, that was Game Loss. All right. Best accessory. Now, I didn't give you time to do this one. I mean, I don't normally. I would say I don't really care. Yeah, you don't care usually. I'm surprised you picked a topper. But best accessory, I'm going to give it to Stern's Expression Speaker Lighting System. I think that was perfect. The secondary market was already making this kind of stuff. Stern solidified it. They integrated it into the game. It's smart. It's awesome. And it has been just a tremendous selling accessory, just like Shaker Motors has been. What about the best surprise of the year? We were the same on this one, weren't we? We were. Yeah. The best surprise was Metallica Remastered. Yeah. It was better than I think people thought it would be. That's the surprise. Absolutely.
    108:43
    And it wasn't even a Spike 3, but it still wowed people enough to like, oh shit, they could make it better. I didn't think they could, but they could bring enough new stuff and still make it better. That was a nice little surprise for 2024 that if we started the year, we would have never guessed to have gotten that. We would have probably have guessed a Godzilla 70th before we would have a Metallica remaster. What about the best high-end product of 2024? This is for all the people that allow it. And you're supposed to. This is the category that so many people, they stereotype collectors as. Or people that don't play their games all the time, but they like them on. Or people who do like collecting and having nice things. So we're going to lean into it. And what game, in addition, was really, if we're talking money-wise, It's like, that looks the best. That is eye candy. Not whether it's the best. No, just a fucking sexy game that looks high end. It's Avatar, the Battle for Pandora Collector's Edition.
    109:55
    Is it? It just is. Is it not Alice's Adventures in Wonderland? Oh, God, no. What? No. But the cat. The cat's cool. All the sculpts. The cat is close enough to make me think twice. Sexy Alice. But no. No. No. No. It was the trailer park elves. Like, no. We didn't, in our summary, we didn't talk about the controversy over the art. That's right. We're going to have to flip it in now. God, the freaking Newport lights. No. But I mean, it's like, it's K-pop. It's all about box of lights, not gameplay, just money. And it's expensive. And to me, it did not look expensive. Is it not even the best high-end product, even more so given the fact that it's a game that's not really meant at all to be played? The idea of it is aimed to be that, but it did not land. Oh. It didn't land. It sold 500s to people who think that that's what collecting is. No. If I put that in a lineup of five other high-end games and have somebody off the street come in, believe me, They're not going to go up to Alice and be like, damn, that looks like a Porsche of pinball machines. No. They're going to say, what the fuck happened to Alice? No.
    111:15
    No. They're going to look at the Jersey Jack game and be like, oh, shit, just like a lot of people do at Jersey Jack games. They go up and they're like, wow, this is cool looking. Metallica remastered Ellie was close. It was really close. But that high-end detail still is held by George Jack Pimble. What about, I like this category, the most improved from 2023, the Comeback Award. Did anything substantially get better where you're like, you know what? The public perception initially was way different than where it sits a year from now. And these would be Scooby-Doo, James Bond 007 60th Anniversary Edition, Foo Fighters, Final Resistance, The Godfather, Pulp Fiction, Galactic Tank Force, Venom, Labyrinth, Elton John. Yeah, I can't say it's anything necessarily that the company did, but this one was pretty easy for me to say Elton John. Me too. The reaction after people got to play it was, you know what, I may not be into this theme, but this is really well integrated. It plays great. It's the best J.J.P. gameplay I've ever experienced, and I think it started to sell more this year than it did last year. It has been, for us sales-wise, the best tale on a Jersey Jack product probably since Wizard of Oz. Back the little story time mode,
    112:41
    when FedEx's freight came and delivered my Jaws, the freight guy goes, Yeah, just earlier this week I delivered an Elton John to someone else in the area. Ah, see? There you go. Because he also was like, didn't I bring you Deadpool two years ago? You were the last Deadpool I delivered. They were like, yeah. Wasn't it their colleague that got pinched in between a car? No, this was the guy who got pinned. Oh, was it? Yep. His colleague, a woman delivered, last year delivered the Iron Man. Oh, okay. She did not get pinned. But, yeah, no, he was, I was like, I didn't bring back up the part. Yeah, you were walking backwards talking to me. He fell in. It was the doll he pinned against my car. No one wants to remember that. I completely agree. Elton John has made one hell of an improvement. And like you said, it hadn't really changed much. It's just... No, I don't think JJP did it. I think they just let the game speak for itself. It took time, but then people were like, okay, that is just a phenomenal game. I didn't really have expectations. I thought it was too decent because, you know, seed. But when I played it, I was like, at TPF, I was like, wow, this is actually really fun. It shot the closest to the Bally Williams Steve Ritchie that we all fell in love with. It's really a good game. And then it comes down to the best.
    114:02
    What was the best new game of 2024? There's a lot of games, options here. To me, I don't think it was that close, objectively. Where are you at on this one, Dennis? No, it wasn't close at all, unfortunately. It's Jaws. It's Jaws, that's right. Absolutely. So, Jaws, for so many reasons. For so many reasons. And looking back at our categories,
    114:34
    it was surprising to me because we've done the Pinball Awards in the past, we've done the Twippies, and a lot of times you will see categories predominantly win, and then they'll end up winning best game. And same with, like, the Academy Awards or the Golden Globe and stuff. You'll see best actor, best actress win, best cinematography, and then ultimately the best. But here, I'm seeing a lot of Uncanny X-Men. I'm seeing a lot of Avatar.
    115:03
    But as a whole, Jaws is the best game. Yeah, no, I had in my prior, if my count's right, I had Avatar five times. Okay. So it was my plurality of picks. and I had Uncanny X-Men tied with Jaws at three. Three awards each that I granted out. But, you know, the sum of the parts are not necessarily meaning that you're the strongest in every single one of the categories, but much like how Best Picture when Argo won, I still remember, like, didn't win anything else. We talked about that. Yeah, because it's a good example of a competent consensus pick sort of movie, but it's also not polarizing. But for Jaws, it's, again, unique layout. Is it as unique looking to people as Uncanny X-Men? Probably not. Rules, one of the few with a fully baked rule set, or Neuron fully baked rule set, so that was a huge advantage to them, and the rules are very, very well done, which flushed out a whole lot of other games, including Uncanny X-Men.
    116:02
    And so, again, you have a better display work on Avatar, but as you noted in your runner-up pick, the animation was pretty good on Jaws. Oh, yeah. It was solid. The stern's getting really good at animation UI. Yeah, and again, toy-wise, okay, no. We both had Uncanny X-Men for toys, but Jaws does have toys, especially above the pro level, and they integrate well with the game. An upper play field is fun. An upper play field with multiple shots that, yeah, that's fun to do. A shark that might not eat the ball, but gets to be bashed a lot. And it may not have the layout that is so novel as the Uncanny X-Men, but it still strays way beyond just a fan layout. It still has a shot that you can go backwards back up the play field off a wire. It's got some cool stuff going. If I'm looking and counting my numbers here, I had Uncanny X-Men with four awards, Avatar with three, and Jaws with three. So, yeah, for me it's definitely Jaws. Now if I'm talking about my favorite Would your favorite be Jaws?
    117:09
    Of the current list Yes Yeah I'd say yes Mine would be close as well Right now Push comes to shove I prefer playing Uncanny X-Men But I like Jaws as a game It's just a theme I like the looks of it It's a tough one for me I'm really loving Uncanny X-Men, and I'm most excited about Uncanny X-Men, put it that way, because I want to see where that's going because I love shooting that freaking game. But congratulations, Stern Pinball. All we're talking about here on the Pinball Show Awards is the greatness of your games.
    117:50
    Congratulations, Jaws team. Watch now. We'll get an email from fucking creators. Hey, thanks. Other things. As we look back in really quick, Dennis, is there anything that kind of strayed your favorites versus what you picked? Oh, versus what I was picking for best ofs. I do want to give a bit of a nod to Princess Bride, which didn't end up getting anything from me, but it was fun when I played it. It's a solid game, man. Yeah, and I mean, I don't want to let people walk away thinking, even though I didn't give it overall for theme immersion, If you want the movie in the game, it's like the best example of it. That came out in 2024. So I do a shout-out to that. Obviously, it was disqualified from everything, but Godzilla 70th did look really good. So if you hadn't gotten a Godzilla and you like a more creative color palette, go ahead and take a look at that one. It definitely is one that's pretty impressive. and Ninja Eclipse, when I finally played it in its most modern state, surprisingly way more fun than I thought it would be. I said the same about when I played the LE version of Funhaus. It's surprisingly fun. It still has its own little issues, but surprisingly fun. And I guess my last thing I would say is, in terms of rules, if you're looking for interesting rules and moving away from sort of the best of stuff, it's been quite a while since I've played it, but Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I was like, give it a try. The Looney Tunes rules didn't really interest me, but the Texas rules did. That was the one that, I don't know if Looney Tunes or Texas Chainsaw wins a slew of these things as the number one pick, but there's enough novel stuff with the layout and the rules that I find myself going and playing Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw a lot more than I do a lot on this list in a lot of the last couple of years, just because it's different and new. And the rules are a lot of fun on both of them, but they're just different. So, yeah. It's a different experience. So I'd say, you know, if you get tired of playing your different layout with Uncanny X-Men and you've got access to Texas Chainsaw Massacre, give it a try for a different rules approach. And for those that are official club members of the pinball show, do we have a treat for them today or not? They love treats. Oh, they're going to get a couple biscuits here. That's because we're going to do another award show. The pinball show worst of 2020. Oh, the toxic awards. The toxic.
    120:28
    The suies. These are the ones that are not safe for work. The suies, now with corn. I still see suie tongue in grandma. I just, he's going to town. These are the worst of awards, and we're not going to hold back.
    120:45
    They may surprise you, number four especially. But not. I suggest you not. these may surprise you. Because I'm not going to just pick Berrios for everything. No, no. Like, they're by default just like a no shit. I'm going to pick stuff that I legitimately think there was some big failures on, even if the hobby community doesn't see it. I'm going to explain why. Yeah. So if you're not a member and you want to listen to that, all you've got to do is sign up to patreon.com slash the pinball show. It helps this program out a ton. And plus you get stuff in return, like exclusive content, like a membership to the Discord channel. We're taking private chat with all of us in the club, and we're discussing all kinds of stuff in the industry and out of the industry. Who am I kidding? This last week, we were talking a lot about theme park rides. But, yeah, go sign up there. You can get your own nickname. You can get questions asked on the show. All kinds of interaction as an official club member. So go do that right now at patreon.com slash the pinball show. So you can hear the Pinball Show Awards, the worst of 2024.
    121:51
    Juicy. We got to thank some people, Dennis. I want to reach out and appreciate and say thank you. Happy New Year to the Bobcat. If the Bobcat had a resolution, it would be maybe not attack as many wives. You know, maybe cut back there. You can shoot that fucker. That's what I'm saying. Thank you, Steve. The Bumblebee. I love that. The Bumblebee's resolution should be. To develop speech.
    122:21
    What? In the movies, Bumblebee had to play the radio. Yeah, he plays the radio. Finally learned to talk. Get that fixed. You got this, Bumblebee. Get that checkup you've been putting off for 12 years. Oh, it's the learnings. He's got so much going on. Rob, thank you so much for the continued support in 2024, and we appreciate your continued support in 2025. You are our panther I think he wants to get up to 65% of the time It will work every time Oh that works It's going to feed so well until later on here Thank you Frank You and your falcon I hope that he got that gift we gave him Of the covered eyes A little beanie We didn't really get you that Frank But it's just for the show here He's calling UPS He's like, do you have a package? Zach, I didn't get anything. Dave, thank you so much in your shaky little ways, you shaker motor, Hugh.
    123:18
    I don't even think you should have to have a resolution because you got stuck with the shaker motor. I'd say maybe tighten down them screws this next year. Might need to change the settings from frequent to the medium mode. Oh, that's a good one. Maybe adjust the weights. Sometimes they can really shake if they're all set. Think about longevity. Thank you so much, Joe, for the continued support in 2025. And your New Year's resolution is to honestly, I want to hang out with you to show Joe. It's more of a personal thing, but damn it. He didn't go to Expo. I wonder if Joe's going to TPS. He should be. Well, you won't be, so what's the point? I will. I don't know. Are you sure? Nicole did say that we might be on a cruise. I don't know. You might be on a cruise. You just don't know. Well, Joe can come with me to a cruise. That'd be fun, actually. Charlie, thank you for the continued support in 2025 Your resolution Is to let your ding shine through Don't be afraid of that dong Say it loud Ring it proud Ding that motherfucking dong Baby The dude Oh, thank you, dude I appreciate your support Even if we gave you a resolution You wouldn't do it anyway Isn't that what makes a man?
    124:40
    Sure, that and a pair of testicles. He won't abide. And we have our newest member, the rooster! Rooster!
    124:49
    Josh. I don't know if Josh liked his nickname, Dennis. Well! He messaged us, and he is still a contributor, I believe. So we didn't scare him off too much. It may be hate contributing, though. That might be. We'll take it. We will take it. So I think that, I mean, I think we can read this out loud, can we? Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I suppose so. All right, so messaged us after hearing about his nickname of the rooster, cock of the walk, baby. And he said, really? What the fuck? I know what you're doing, and I can't believe I just pledged $100 a month to hear this shit and you guys snickering like a couple of middle schoolers. It's a rock hard name, a name that slaps you in the face, A name all of your intimate partners have experienced personally. I think he's talking about the cock.
    125:41
    I kid. If I couldn't take it, no pun intended, I would have changed my name in the fourth grade. It's getting a little close to his name. Long live the Brewster, he said. He shall live long. He shall live hard. And I will lean into it. I bet you will, you fucking sicko.
    126:01
    I told you it was too obvious. Oh, my God, so good, though. And then Dennis responded, I'm powerless to stop Zach and to embrace his sophomore humor. Guess what, Josh? You keep leaning into it, buddy.
    126:18
    Hope it's not too hard. Okay. Oh, holy shit. Dennis, we're on a roll. We have another Screaming Goat Club. Another one? Another one.
    126:30
    I'm loving this. Yes, this is. Now, he warned us. This is John. I didn't see this warning. Yep, new GOAT member John. He told us. He said, look, I'm tempted to become a screaming GOAT club member just to hear what the nickname is and so that he could tell us all of the stuff that Stern Pinball needs to do with their insider connected for operators. So we're going to get to that. I think it's going to be a good show. So coming soon, John. But, hey, we've got to designate you a nickname. And we were talking about what brought that up? What brought up Old Spice and stuff like that? Weren't we discussing that last time? Yeah, it was the Brute came up. Brute. I think I did a throwaway line about Brute being a stocking stuffer. Yeah, the stocking stuffer. That's probably what it was. Yeah. And John messaged us, and he gave us some information. He probably shouldn't have, but he himself may be a consumer of old man smell.
    127:37
    So, John, welcome to the Screaming Goat Club. You are officially for the pinball show now known as the Aqua Velvet. What kind of fragrance does a woman really like on a man? Something manly and fresh. For his face. For his body. Something that lasts all day. Aqua Velvet's new herbal. Aqua Velvet's new mug. And that cut. Where did you get that cut extra? That's really... It was an exploration of commercial space. Oh, my God. The aqua velvet. I can almost smell John from here. How many splashes did you put on? Holy shit. There's something about that aqua velvet, man. So, John, I thought Shaker Motor was bad. John just gets, like, old man smell. Just a general old man smell. He's more of a smell than he is a sight or even a sound on this podcast. So, he's our first scratch and sniff.
    128:44
    Can you, I can almost smell aqua velvet right now. Wow. What's worse, that or Brute? I know you were Brute, so. Neither one of them are bad. And they're just, are they good in a bad way or bad in a good way? But Aqua Velva has, like, herbal and musk. Some musk. Which they did in the day. John's our muskiest member.
    129:12
    You could feel him enter a room. There's a presence I'm not felt. There's nothing that says Aqua Velva like hugging an uncle. Holy shit man Welcome to the club John I can't wait to hear about All your old people ways How many butterscotch do you have in your pocket right now John How the hell do you know How many butterscotch He sent something in the message about his wife Just loves the smell Of that aqua silver Oh my gosh You know what we're going to do over the year We're going to send John Samples of different colognes just to see what his wife perks up about, you know? Maybe she likes a little Aqua DiGio by Giorgio Armani, or maybe a little Calvin Klein. But for now, she gets all musky in this Aqua Velva. I almost said Aqua Volpa. That's a whole different show. Thanks for the continued support, John. Dennis, where can people catch you? Make an email at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com. I think Nicole's making spaghetti. Smells amazing I tum-tums rumbling Okay, poo bear You're my poo bear You're poo bear Three out of ten Where's your ass, Schmeagle? Okay We've had a great year, man I love doing this with you I have so much fun I have to segue into straight in the middle I guess We do a video series Go follow, like, and subscribe to that As well as a sponsor of the show It's fucking Flippin' Out Pinball When I buy my pinball shit, I buy from Flippin' Out. From Topper Shop, from Creamy Oats, I've got it. Flippin' Out. When I take a pinball, I take Flippin' Out. When I buy, buy, buy, I buy from Flippin' Out. Buy, buy, buy. The product showcase this week for Flippin' Out Pinball, you're going to want to get in on this. It's the next cornerstone from Stern Pinball. All you've got to do is email Zach at Z-A-C-H, FlippinOutPinball.com, and I'll get you on the list because you might like it. Whether you're one of those freaks and you like to be slayed inside a dungeon or if you feel scaly like a dragon and you need a little lotion. I don't know. But you're going to want it. You're going to want an LE. Buy, buy, buy! I'm hearing things. Star Wars comic editions in stock. Evil Dead, you can preorder. Metallica Remastered, I'm backordering. I have, I think, one or two left right now. The Beatles Gold, I think I have two left. Black Knight Pros, I think I've got some of those. Spooky's next game. JJP's next game. Your pre-order, Harry. Godzilla 70th Anniversary. I think I've got a couple of those. Look, all of those retired games, I've got a couple. Get them. All of the vault games, I've got them. FOMO, bitches! Avatars. I think we've got Pulps leaving here soon. Labyrinth. Buy yourself a labyrinth. Accessories. Everything else. FlippinOutPinball.com. We really appreciate the support. You can email me or email Greg at greg.flippinoutpinball.com. Flippin' Out with Friends, I think Joel is streaming Beatles Gold this week. That'll be a lot of fun. Dennis teaches people something. Happy New Year. Simple enough. Always practice safe pinball. And we gave you the best of 2024. Now, damn it, next year we want you to make yourself the best of 2025. and become a beloved member. A patron who comes. We'll see you.