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the spinner is lit. Episode - 22 - Unleash - The - Titans

The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 58m·held·Apr 20, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Roundtable debate on Black Knight: Swords of Rage and Willy Wonka games, praising layouts but raising setup and design concerns.

Summary

Episode 22 of The Spinner Is Lit A A Pinball Podcast features roundtable discussion of two major new releases: Black Knight: Swords of Rage (designed by Steve Ritchie) and Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory and the Chocolate Factory (designed by Pat Lawlor). The crew debates design choices including the upper playfield on Black Knight variants, the seven magnets and busy artwork on Willy Wonka, and broader industry trends toward feature-packed games. Hosts discuss gameplay impressions from videos, setup concerns, and theming quality.

Key Claims

  • Black Knight: Swords of Rage is already hitting locations and available to play at Free Gold Watch in San Francisco

    high confidence · Spencer Klingon, host, mentions specific location

  • Willy Wonka has seven magnets, more than any recent game (previous max was 3-4)

    high confidence · Roundtable discussion; Chris and Kendra verify no other game has that many

  • Gary Stern believes Black Knight doesn't need an upper playfield; panelists strongly disagree

    high confidence · Spencer directly quotes conversation with Gary Stern; Chris responds 'Gary Stern is wrong'

  • Black Knight: Swords of Rage's code is finished

    high confidence · Spencer states: 'The code's finished on the game'

  • Willy Wonka will have modes for each child character from the movie, with gameplay objectives tied to the kids

    medium confidence · Roundtable discussion infers from artwork and theme; not explicitly confirmed by manufacturer

  • Pat Lawlor designed Willy Wonka; he previously designed The The Addams Family, Twilight Zone, Whirlwind, and other classics

    high confidence · Alex explicitly credits Pat Lawlor; known designer credits align with KB

  • Willy Wonka has an upper flipper, making it a four-flipper game like Iron Maiden

    high confidence · Alex mentions 'the upper flipper' on Wonka; roundtable confirms recent resurgence of four-flipper games

  • Black Knight of Rage Premium and LE have dual playfields; Pro does not

    high confidence · Roundtable discussion of tiering and upper playfield debate

Notable Quotes

  • “It'd be like if they did a sequel to Funhouse and there was no Rudy.”

    Chris — Illustrates the community's view that Black Knight without dual playfields breaks series tradition and identity

  • “Gary Stern is wrong.”

    Chris — Direct challenge to manufacturer leadership on design philosophy; reveals friction between designer vision and executive decisions

  • “Go big or go home.”

    Brian — Summarizes buyer philosophy on Black Knight tiering; advice to purchasers

  • “Unless you're Gary Stern and you just lost it.”

    Spencer Klingon — Humorous jab at Stern leadership's design decision; reveals community skepticism of upper playfield removal

  • “If it's not set up absolutely correctly it could be a really bad east west just bink bonk machine.”

    Chris — Technical concern: setup quality will determine whether Black Knight plays as intended or becomes a poor experience

  • “This is a really brilliant layout. It really is. You have a whole host of long, clean shots.”

    Chris — Praise for Willy Wonka's shot design despite busy artwork; emphasizes playability over visual clutter

  • “Pirates being a wide body, you know, there's a little bit more real estate to jam stuff in there.”

    Chris — Explains design constraints: standard body limits Willy Wonka feature density vs. Pirates of the Caribbean

  • “It's a renaissance.”

    Alex — Characterizes current era of pinball design as returning to 1990s density of features and innovation

  • “Iron Maiden is the best game that Stern's put out since Metallica.”

    Chris — Strong endorsement of Iron Maiden Pro; positions it as Stern's top-tier recent release

  • “It doesn't have to be innovative. It needs to be interesting and it needs to be fun to play.”

Entities

Spencer KlingonpersonBlack Knight: Sword of Rage (Pro)gameWilly Wonka and the Chocolate FactorygameSteve RitchiepersonPat LawlorpersonGary SternpersonChrispersonChris Bannisterperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Black Knight: Swords of Rage is shipping and playable at multiple locations; Free Gold Watch in San Francisco confirmed

    high · Spencer mentions 'already hitting the streets' and specific location with machine

  • ?

    product_concern: Black Knight: Swords of Rage may be sensitive to setup quality; poor setup could result in undesirable 'east-west' pinball behavior

    high · Chris: 'if it's not set up absolutely correctly it could be a really bad east west just bink bonk machine'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Willy Wonka uses standard-body cabinet, limiting feature density compared to Pirates of the Caribbean (wide-body); seven magnets is innovation for space constraints

    high · Chris discusses standard vs. wide body tradeoffs; seven magnets noted as unprecedented in recent games

  • ?

    product_concern: Early production Stern machines (AC/DC Premium/LE, Monsters LE) have developed haze on lower playfield plastic; potential quality issue for Black Knight premiums and LEs

    high · Chris observes haze on Monsters LE lower playfield matching early AC/DC issues; expresses hope Black Knight won't repeat this

  • ?

    design_innovation: Willy Wonka features a progressive gobstopper hole that opens after multiple hits; unique implementation not seen in recent games

    medium · Chris notes novelty of hole opening mechanism; contrasts with Monster Bash which simply widened over time

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.357

0:00
Welcome to the Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast, I'm your host Spencer Klingon. Tonight's episode is episode 22, Unleash the Titans. With me tonight is the Roundtable crew. Once again, we've got some old members and some new members, and it's going to be an amazing show. With me tonight, as always, is my lovely wife, Marianne Rusty. Hey! And with us again tonight is Brian. Hello. And Alex. What's up, everybody? And with us for the first time tonight is Eric Selford from the Capital Quarter of Pinball League. Hi. And with us again tonight is Kendra. Hello. And back since the very second episode in my first ever interview is Chris. What's his name? Hey. And his lovely wife, Michelle. Hey. And their lovely son, Brian. Hello. And Jake from State Farm. Hey, guys. What's going on? Not from State Farm. No, not from State Farm. Not anymore, anyway. Okay, so, before we get into the main show tonight, well, it is the main show, I want to give a big shout out and a push for another great pinball and arcade show that's coming up May 4th and 5th, and that is ZapCon, with one P. Z-A-P-C-O-N. ZapCon? ZapCon! So Zabcon, with one P, is Zabcon.com, and that's the website. If you put two Ps, you get a comic convention in Fresno. Anyway, that's in Mesa, Arizona, May 4th and 5th. It's a pinball arcade show, and it's at the Mesa Convention Center. You can look it up on the Internet, folks, or Google it.
2:08
Same thing. They have, of course, arcade and pinball. They have a men's tournament. Well, they have an everybody tournament. They have a women's only tournament. They have a kids' tournament. They also have different video game tournaments. So, big shout-out to all the Arizona folks. And if you find yourself in Mesa, Arizona that weekend, definitely check it out. And for those of you who don't own a globe, that is a suburb of Phoenix. Anyway, let's jump right into it, gang. Welcome back to the roundtable. Now, we're going to go right into the Clash of the Titans. We have two new games fresh out right now. One's not shipping yet, but should be soon. We're going to talk about that in a little bit, and that's Willy Wonka, of course. But we're going to go right into the new Stern game from Steve Ritchie. So right now we have the two baddest, heaviest hitters, the Titans and Pinball, releasing games virtually at the same time. So Black Knight, Swords of Rage, is already hitting the streets, and you can play it on a few selected locations, one of them being, hold on, helped me out in San Francisco. Free gold watch. Free gold watch in San Francisco. Just got a Black Knight Swords of Rage Pro. So, uh, Brian, let's start. First impressions of video and like that. What are you thinking? Get a premium. It's not a Black Knight without two play fields. Okay. Alex?

Chris — Design philosophy: gameplay quality matters more than novelty; justifies feature reuse across games

Brian
person
Alexperson
Kendraperson
Eric Selfordperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Free Gold Watchvenue
ZapConevent
Pinball Piratevenue
Project Pinballorganization
Iron Maiden Legacy Of The Beast (Pro)game
Pirates of the Caribbeangame

market_signal: Four-flipper and multi-flipper games returning after decade-long absence; Iron Maiden, Willy Wonka, Pirates of the Caribbean, Wizard of Oz recent examples

high · Alex notes 'we had what, a decade or more of no four-flipper games, and we've had two in the last year and a half'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Tension between Stern leadership (Gary Stern) and designer (Steve Ritchie) over Black Knight dual-playfield design; leadership favors removal, community/designer favors retention

    high · Spencer relays Gary Stern's statement that 'Black Knight doesn't need an upper playfield'; Chris strongly disagrees ('Gary Stern is wrong')

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Willy Wonka generating mixed but largely positive sentiment; one panelist (Eric) expresses musical concerns but acknowledges cool features; majority enthusiastic

    high · Majority praise shot maps and layout; Eric dissents on music only; Chris, Alex, others express high expectations

  • ?

    code_update: Black Knight: Swords of Rage code development is finished; no further rule changes expected before shipping

    high · Spencer states: 'The code's finished on the game'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Willy Wonka standard edition priced lower than premium/LE variants to encourage operator adoption; missing one lock feature but otherwise comparable

    high · Spencer notes 'the standard edition is lower priced. Hopefully more operators will get these out and about' and standard missing one lock is not deal-breaker

  • ?

    community_signal: Strong community enthusiasm for Pat Lawlor as designer; history of classic games (Addams, Twilight, Whirlwind) creates high expectations for Willy Wonka

    high · Alex credits Lawlor's legacy; Chris expresses high hopes based on JJP track record; community views Lawlor as elite designer

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Willy Wonka praised for long, clean shots and strong flow despite busy artwork; layout quality separated from visual presentation

    high · Chris: 'if you sort of let your eyes go past the art package...you look at the actual shot maps...this is a really brilliant layout...long, clean shots'

    • 3:33
    I'd say get either a pro or premium. I think both of them are great. Um, I haven't played them, obviously, but, uh, I feel like this could probably be or may be one of Steve Ritchie's best games.
    3:45
    All right. I don't know, Alex. That's an awful lot. That's a pretty bold statement. But you know what? It's from a pretty bold man.
    3:54
    Eric, thoughts? Looks like it's got a lot of flow. Looks like it's super brutal, which I really like. So I'm looking forward to playing the premium or the L.A.
    4:03
    Kendra? I just think they could have done more with the upper play field. It seems kind of lacking. Okay. Chris? So I have some strong thoughts about this machine. Uh-oh. Okay, so the upper playfield is a bit lacking to me.
    4:24
    I had high hopes for DK3K because basically that's what this machine is. The upper playfield is a little lacking, a little lackluster. the whole concept of the knight where it is or what it does might be kind of cool what I could see being a problem with this machine is if it's not set up absolutely correctly it could be a really bad east west just bink bonk machine which so it's like ACDC when it's not set up right well yes black knight machines when they're set up right, they're fast. They're flow of machines. This has a whole lot of other crap to hit.
    5:14
    I don't know. I have to play one. But my first impression is that it's not going to be true to what it should be.
    5:28
    I like what everybody's saying about it. I have high hopes, but at the same time for me to see it in ball. you know, for Christmas. The art is good. The art is right. The soundtrack is good. It's right.
    5:43
    It's an interesting layout. It might be a lot of fun, but like I said, my concern is that if it's not set up completely perfectly, that it's going to play like a brick and it's going to kind of suck, which would be really disappointing.
    5:57
    So have one at home where you can set it up correctly. Thoughts, Michelle? I look forward to playing it. It looks really cool. even with the like even the pro without the upper playfield now you're like he just came in and burned it yeah well you guys own a VK2000 so it's not a black knight unless it has two playfields yeah any other thoughts okay sorry it'd be interesting to see a black knight actually without an upper playfield that's why I kind of am liking all three editions just to see you know what it's going to play like without an upper playfield compared to with an upper playfield. I think that's a big thing. You know, I was talking to Gary about it, and he's like, Black Knight doesn't need to have an upper playfield, you know? When you say Gary, you mean Gary Stern? Correct. Yes. Sorry, Gary Stern. Gary Stern is wrong. Yeah. You heard it here first. It'd be like if they did a sequel to Funhouse and there was no Rudy. Yeah, exactly. That wouldn't be right. That's a great point. True. I'll give you that. Yeah. I just, looking at the upper play field, look at BK2K. You've got objectives. Same thing on the first one. Yes, as well. You've got something to do, whereas up top on this one, you've got, what, a couple of targets? The lock mechanisms. You've got the lock mechanisms. You've got the loop. Yep. And what else? We'll have to wait and see what the code does with what's out there.
    7:26
    The code's finished on the game. So, Jake, thoughts? Yeah, for me, I mean, it looks pretty cool. Again, until you actually play the game, it's really hard to say. But the night, the detail on the night, and I'm a big fan of music. Like, I love music pins, so a cool soundtrack on it seems like it's going to be fun. So we'll see. Okay. Any thoughts, Brian? I would have to agree that it wouldn't be the same if it didn't have another plate deal as its pre-edit pre-sets. So if you're a buyer, you're a buyer on a Premier or an LE Allman. Go big or go home. There you go. Go big or go home, folks. So, all right. Cool. These are all good thoughts. You know, there's no wrong answer here. You know. You can afford it. Unless you're Gary Stern. Unless you're Gary Stern and you just lost it.
    8:10
    Or you're Joe Dankenberg. Rusty. Joey's kind of a family. Another beer and I'll get out. Black Knight's never been my favorite. I've played it in video game format. I've played it in real life. Um, BK2, I'm still trying to figure out which the banisher is going to test to, because, you know, they watch me flipping flippers like a crazy woman going, ah, I'm trying to get somewhere. You're in the upper playfield, huh? I know, I keep trying. Um, so I'm actually kind of thinking that, uh, BK3K might just offer something new without having the upper playfield. Now, the purists are going to go, no, absolutely not. But I'm thinking for those who are new into pinball or are always or just never been a BK fan in general, maybe this would bring something different. And I'm watching Alex pant with my dog. Excuse my dog's panting. It's hot in our house. But I think it'll bring some kind of simplicity to the whole Black Knight family, where it'll be more simple and more accessible to the general pop. Yes, I think you're right about that, yeah. Plus, for you, Rusty, it has sort of a toy in the form of the knife. You know, I love my toys. Well, it's not a good toy. Okay, you've got the flail, which spins both ways. You have the shield that goes down and blocks it. It opens up so you can put a ball behind it. Similar to Sandman on Spider-Man. Right. And it also, from what I understand, will knock you back like a kickback. I'm going to throw some interesting thoughts out on BK2K. I mean, everybody's got some great thoughts on it.
    10:06
    What the other Black Knight games have not had the ability to do is tell a more detailed story. where you have the full video, you have objectives, you have the skeleton army, and you have the sandworm, you have all these different characters that you're battling against to get up to the Black Knight. And I think even with the pro model lacking the upper play field, I think that's still an area where that can really make, you know, you can only afford the pro if there's a pro on location. I think all that storytelling and the video integration and the much deeper, expanded rule set is going to make the game playable. And I do want to point out, and I don't want to be a Debbie Downer here, I was playing Monsters LE a couple weeks ago. Well, Kendra was there at Coin-Op. And the lower playfield is getting that haze real bad that the early ACDC games were getting, the premium and the LEs with that. They shipped with that, though. Yeah, yeah. So I'm really hopeful that the Black Knight premiums and L.E. Upper Claypool don't get that funky haze. Because that, you know, people, you know how people are, man. They're going to complain about the little stuff, and that'll be something big they'll complain about. So Elvis and World Poker Tour got the same thing, the same clear, plexiglass. Right. And it hazed over after several thousand games. Okay. You know, that's just, it's the nature of the beast. It's metal on plastic wood. So, you know what? My laureate or whatever or mine extra. Right. Learn how to flame polish. Keep plenty of notice on hand. So, you know. So, don't forget, everybody. Drinks are in the fridge. Help yourself or snacks. Open bar, dude. Sound like Mark Stenson right there. So, don't be shy, man. Just help yourself. And, Bud, you got any thoughts on this? There's people. They have food. They scratched my butt. Scratched my butt. And keep a good thought for Bud. our dog, because you heard me yell at him a lot on the show.
    12:12
    Bud's got a thing, a growth on his butt, and it could turn into a cancer. He's fine and healthy right now, but all you listeners, if you like Bud the dog, I'll post pictures of him on the Spinner's Lit Facebook page soon, and keep a good thought for Bud. We'll bring some weed to help. There we go. Is it tomorrow? Yeah, tomorrow.
    12:36
    Anyway. So we're celebrating by going to Reno and pick it up at the pinball machine. There you go. Dr. Who. Dan traded his Monopoly for a Dr. Who. Nice. That's a good trade. That's a great trade. Shout out to Dan. Shout out to Dan who's not here tonight. To play the Black Knight that we're going to have a box here. We miss you guys. Can't wait to see you again. Have a safe trip to Reno. Okay, so let's move on to Jersey Jack's newest game, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. And you'll be in a world up your imagination.
    13:10
    That was beautiful. That was like the highlight of the show right there. You would have thought we were all going to say that. But I want it now! We've already hit the highlight. I'm going to reverse the order and I'm going to start with this one. Willy Wonka. I know I've talked about this on the show before. We're going to talk about it again. It was, I don't know if it was the first movie I ever saw without my parents where I went with my cousins. I grew up in a really small town with one movie theater and one drive-in and a single screen movie theater. And we'd go on the mountaineers on Saturdays. It was like a four-block walk. We'd stop at the little corner, mom and pop grocery and get penny candy. Yes, I grew up in the dark ages, folks. We'd still walk down the city streets without ending up on a milk carton. You even had milk cartons back then? Well, we actually had a lot of bottles, and the milk man delivered. So you draped your face in the carton. Right. But, you know, I remember, I vaguely, no, I vividly remember, rather, seeing that in the movie theater when I was maybe seven, eight, and just being absolutely captivated by it. And so, I don't know if it's like a dream thing for me, but it's a thing that I'm really excited about. And looking over the gameplay and the features, I'm, you know, I mean, I'll say this. my first impression, my first thought when I saw the WonkaVision, I was like, yeah, they've thrown that in. Because it seems like whenever they just run out of money or time or good ideas, they're all video screened inside the play field. But, after watching it more,
    14:48
    and having a wonderful talk with my good friend, dear brother, and fellow pinhead and single malt scotch aficionado, Chris Bannister.
    14:56
    That's you. You pointed out some things that made sense. If it really does help in the storytelling, bud, stop barking at the neighbors.
    15:06
    It wouldn't be a show if I didn't bark at somebody. So, but it does, you know, it does help in the storytelling and you got the Wonka camera and like that. So I'm excited to play it and see more of what it does. But overall, you know, I think they captured the essence and the spirit of Wonka, the theme, and, you know, I like the music well enough. Although, if they don't put the Candyman in there, Somebody Please Make a Mod, where it has the Candyman song. So I'm just dying to get my hands on one, because, dude, it's Wonka. It's Oompa Loompas. On pop-upers. Exactly. How can you not love that? It's the Everlasting Gobstopper.
    15:47
    It's the Spinning Gobstopper. It's the Golden Egg. But I want it now. It's lickable wallpaper. It's Baroopa Salt. Anyway, it's got it all, man. So, anyway, but just my first impressions. I don't think there's anything lacking in the game. Even the, and I'll point out, the standard edition is lower priced. Hopefully more operators will get these out and about. You're missing one lock feature. I don't think it's a huge, I mean, it's cool that it's there, but if you don't have it there in the standard, I don't think it's a deal breaker. And I think the side art's fine. All the people complaining, you don't play the art. Don't be a pinball poser. No wins. No false medal. anyway. Do not get participation medals. No participation medals. So far of what I've seen, seeing any gameplay was incredibly limited for me, but I'm actually eyeballing the side art, and it's fantastic.
    16:48
    It's very beautiful, very busy. It's got a lot for it to look at. We've got Charlie on the lower part of the play field with a big goofy grin. So that's kind of disturbing.
    17:07
    He broke the event variance. You do have D. Wilder in the Willy Wonka character. They have, I believe, modes for all the kids. All the kids have their own play. so Baruch Assault and Violet Beauregard and Mike TV and those goes wrong on the dessert you know it's going to be kind of cool because if they're doing the modes proper to the movie your goal is to kill the kids yeah excellent point yeah it is but just you know on the play field there's so much I'm sure they've done and probably tons more they can do. So, looking very, very forward to it.
    18:00
    And Spencer just walked away. Our host just walked away. But, Brian, do you have any thoughts? I have no thoughts. I think it's a really interesting thing, but other than that, no thoughts. Jay? Yeah, actually, I'm a big fan of the movie, and so when I saw that they themed it after the original, I was super excited, and then seeing the gameplay, it looks just awesome. The spin golf stopper was really cool. That kind of stuck out, that and the handle golf stopper. But it was hard to tell by watching some of the footage, hearing some of the clips from the movie. So yeah, interesting to see how much more in clips they add just for the cool effects in that part of it. I think that they have a huge winner as far as what the customers want, and I think it's going to be a huge seller for Jersey Jack, and I can't wait to play it. Agreed.
    19:03
    Michelle, word of the day? And now it's Michelle with the word of the day. Thoughts on Waka, hon? No. No, we're skipping Michelle. Okay, we'll get back to Michelle. Chris? Okay, so everyone who knows me and my collection knows that I am a huge fan of JJP games, with the exception of Captain Cellphone. That was one thing I cannot get past.
    19:35
    And honestly, I played it. It was all right. It wasn't amazing. I'm a fan of JJP games because they tend to be amazing.
    19:47
    I own Woz. I own Hobbit. I own an Ellie well they're all Ellie's but I own Pirates of the Caribbean and they're all amazing games I'm sorry are you correcting my pronunciation I just went out with the kids Caribbean Caribbean it's okay it's Caribbean boy that was 18 minutes you and Gary Stern are wrong it's not even Gary Stern it's Jersey Jack Gary Stern is wrong from earlier I just put in a couple of sound bites to listen to the finished product because you'll laugh. You're putting in sound bites while I'm talking. Thank you, Spencer. I love Alex's talking, but anyway.
    20:28
    Other than dialed in, Captain Cellphone, Jersey Jack produces amazing games. Now, this game, if you're looking at the art, if you're looking at the play field, it's busy. It's a very, very busy game. It's very flashy. There's a whole lot going on. There's a lot of color going on. There's a lot of shapes going on. A lot of crazy things. And that's okay. It doesn't appeal to everybody. It appeals to me. But that's part of the theme. I mean, Waka Land is really busy and colorful. That goes along with the theme, yes. Right.
    21:01
    And it doesn't bother me. I personally like how busy the art package is. If you, looking at the play fields, if you sort of let your eyes go past the art package and the colors and the busyness going on and you look at the actual shot maps, the actual flow of the game, this is a really brilliant layout. It really is. You have a whole host of long, clean shots. Which means this game, once again, if set up correctly, should have a lot of flow to it and should be an absolute blast to play. As far as themes go, me personally, Willy Wonka, I'm okay on the theme.
    21:48
    I'm neither for it nor against it. I do enjoy the fact that Gene Wilder's looking dapper and smiling up at me from the playfield.
    21:58
    Because he wants to kill you. No, no, just the children. Oh, okay. Which is the goal of the modes. I have a whole lot of expectation when I do finally get to play this. I think the progressive gobble hole is kind of a slick idea.
    22:19
    It remains to be seen if it actually works well and if it becomes problematic. But as far as the shot map for the machine itself, the game itself, it really, really looks good. I have big hopes for this machine.
    22:38
    Well said. Can we just talk about for a second the fact that there are seven magnets in this machine just to screw with you? All the magnets. Woo!
    22:47
    We can talk about that. Because I know watching, you know, the reveal on Buffalo Pinball, those magnets shot that ball straight down the out lane.
    22:59
    They haven't. A couple of times. It's pinball. Just to fuck with you. Pardon me. There has to be randomness. And Kendra. Yellow card. Kendra Carter. Kendra has broken the seal. World Cup soccer. Kendra's rocking scotch tonight.
    23:14
    Scotch, scotch, scotch. She likes scotch. Who doesn't? You bring up a great point, though. Seven magnets. Wow. That's a lot in a standard body. That's a lot in any game. Has anybody ever put seven magnets in a game before? Nope. Three is like the max with Adams and Guns N' Roses.
    23:34
    And how many does... Oh, last action hero. Last Action Hero, I think, has three. It has three. Twilight has four. Oh, so I have three or four. Me and Twilight's not a good one. Oh, yeah, the mini play field. Yeah.
    23:47
    Okay. You and Adam's Twides don't get along. But Adam's Twides don't get along with anybody because he makes them so hard. But he makes all significantly better players. It does. And now when we go and we find some four ops machine, we just go and completely destroy them and have a good time.
    24:08
    There you go. And it's courtesy of Adam and his ridiculously hard machines. Yeah, but it does make us better players. And I really want to meet the person who actually spells out scrumdiddlyumptious on this machine. And correctly. Yes. Is a four-year-old kid from A-Grow, Ohio. Right. A homeschool kid. Probably, yes.
    24:28
    Any more thoughts? I love it. I wish I could afford it. it looks amazing. Well, most likely, you can probably enter to win one at Project Pinball.
    24:43
    You know, which I've shouted out, and I'll shout out again. Project Pinball. What they do, folks, is they put pinball machines in children's hospitals, and they raffle off games. Project Pinball.org. And right now, they're raffling off a CERN Premium and a CERN Pro of Well, you can pick any game in production, but right now the two that they're profiling are the new Black Knights. And you can pick any game in production. The pro is $50 for a raffle. And even if you don't win, you're still winning because you're putting Tim Moshins in children's hospitals. And, you know, how can you not get behind that? Anyway, Eric.
    25:25
    All right, I'm going to be the lone dissenter here. I'm not a huge fan. And that's okay. This is like non. There are no rules as they show. I watched some of the video and it seemed like I think it's got a lot of cool stuff in it and I think there were shots being made by a couple of the guys that looked like they were almost too easy to me but I didn't watch the entire video. It's just kind of a first impression and for some reason and don't ask me why but the music bugs the hell out of me and I know it's supposed to be Willy Wonka and I know it's a kid's theme and I know all this other stuff, but it's just the music bugs the crap out of me. And that is just one of those things that just kills me. It's kind of like Axl Rose. I can't stand that guy. I like Guns N' Roses. Sorry. I don't know. I like Guns N' Roses just fine. Axl Rose, if they do just instrumentals, best band on earth. Axl Rose sings, nails on a chalkboard, just kills it for me. You know, Eric, music is something I've heard a lot where people haven't liked it. I don't know why. And I just need to hear it to see if it's as bad as Austin Powers. Because if you think it gets on the line, it's going to be a killer. I like all those really bad games, but I'm a huge Austin Powers fan, so I actually like that game. Stern's first licensed game. Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah, baby. Which doesn't make any sense because I like games that have really annoying noises, like Stern Nineball. I think that's the coolest soundtrack ever. And it's so annoying. Oh, that is a great game. I want to get one. but for whatever reason I watch the Wonka thing and I'm listening to music I'm just like turn that off but I think it'll change once I get a chance to play it at Coldenstein and you know and they'll probably you know they're probably going to fine tune some stuff before his production so yeah maybe he'll take the seven magnets and lower it down to one no if it was me I would take the soundtrack out of Black Knight and put it in Willy Wonka that would be metal that would be cool I think on Willy Wonka they're going to take out the monkey mech and then powder coat the ramps yellow with some glitter paint. Oh, shit.
    27:29
    It's like, that's still good, but you got two more episodes to use that joke and then it's done. I'll find another one. Okay.
    27:40
    Uh, Alex? Well, first of all, it's a Pat Lawler game. All y'all know Pat Lawler. He did a lot of my favorites, like Bunhaus and Addams and Twilight Zone and Whirlwind. Earthshaker. Let's not forget Banzai Run.
    27:54
    And NASCAR, which you own. That's correct, yes. And it is a good machine. I think so, too. And Ripley's. Great machine. Yeah, that is, too. So, anyway, yeah. Back to Walker.
    28:08
    I like the shots on the game. I think the shots are really cool. I think Bud played with me as well. Bud. Bud, it's okay.
    28:18
    Bud disagrees on the shots. Sorry about that. Yeah, I know, right? You've just been vetoed by Bud. All right. And it's like I got the 86 card. Go ahead. Yeah, so I think the shots are pretty neat. I like how they remind me of a little bit of Judge Dredd a bit, especially with the upper flipper, you know.
    28:40
    The gobstopper thing is cool. I kind of like the artwork on it. I like how there's a kid multi-ball in each of the things. Yeah, I'm looking forward to playing this. I have to play it. You brought up a great point. You know, we had, what, a decade or more of no four-flipper games, and we've had two in the last year and a half, two years now. Iron Maiden, and now Willy Wonka. I mean, well, okay, it is. Pirates has four, doesn't it? Yeah, and then Wizard of Oz. Pirates has four, I thought. So I am, yeah. Pirates has five. Five. Pirates has five. You know, so, I mean, the reason I bring that up, thank you, Michelle, because I hadn't thought about that. But games are really, they're getting back to the golden age, if we call it that, or whatever, the 90s, where they're packing games full of good stuff. It's a renaissance. And, yeah, it is really a renaissance. I mean when I moved to Sacramento seven and change years ago it was a pinball wasteland Yes it was You know Yeah you guys all know And now look at it There was a truck stop Yeah right You know, there's so many great locations. So many things going on. But we still got to get to Brian and Wonka. Or do we already do you and Wonka? I want to play it. It wasn't happening. That's all I can say about it. It looks cool. It's not okay. It looks cool. They better not have to cut the ramps. The only thing that kind of confounders me a lot It seems like, as far as what they packed into the game, just by looking at it, not playing it, it seems like they took a step back from Pirates. Because Pirates is jam-packed. That game is incredible, and if I had the money, I would buy one. That's the most jam-packed game they've done probably ever. I mean, in the history of pinball, there's more stuff in Spotify Zone, there's more stuff in Out of the Family. there's just, that game's jam-packed. Yeah, we talked about your Pirates. So, we'll see. Every episode, for like the last eight episodes, we talked about your Pirates. Because you don't listen, and if you listen to the episodes, you know this. Yeah, we love your Pirates. Pirates is a fantastic game. It is a fantastic game. So, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. You know, I'm just, I'm curious why they stepped back a little bit. Was it the cost was too high, or who knows? I'm just curious. I mean, well, Pirates being a wide body, too. You know, there's a little bit more real estate to jam stuff in there where Pat Lawler said, I want to go with the standard body, and I'll jam as much stuff as I can. And he's managed to get – I want to point out, you know, the mechanical. Some people have been, you know, saying, well, it's not that innovative or whatever. Okay, nobody has ever done, you know, a gobble hole that opens up. You know, it's just a gobble hole. You have to hit it multiple times. You have to hit it multiple times, then open it up. And it's also, if I'm not mistaken, it is a subway? I think so. Okay. Yeah, right? Monster Bash, it's not a whole widened up. It just took a couple thousand games. Well, there you go. There's that, right? But, you know, and so there are, I mean, there are innovations, though. They may be smaller. You know, water to wine. Well, a game doesn't have to be, like, brand new. Oh, my God, look at all these cool innovations. It'll be a fun game. Exactly. And if it's got one or two things that are interesting and maybe new, that's great. and if it doesn't, I mean, we've got lots of games where it's basically, okay, that's all been done before. Okay, a Walking Dead, you know, if you get the premium, you've got the crossbow, which had been done before on, um, help me out, guys. It's any sort of canon game, Star Trek, well, yeah, but that particular one in that placement in the center, like, true, but it's a canon that's been done, Black Rose, um, Austin Powers, exact same mech, it was the exact same mech from Austin Powers. That's okay, though. It works, and it's still fun. Not every game needs to be innovative. It needs to be interesting and it needs to be fun to play. The point is it needs to be fun to play. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm like, great example, look at the Iron Maiden Pro. There's nothing that game that's never been done before. Yeah. And it's amazing. The Iron Maiden Pro, in my opinion, the Iron Maiden is the best game that Stern's put out since Metallica. Which, wide away congratulations to Brian who is now the proud owner of an Iron Maiden pro. From Adam.
    33:05
    Like you said, Chris, I agree. It doesn't have to be innovative. Oh, my God, look at all this new stuff we have on game. Yeah, look at TNA, right? Yeah, TNA is great. TNA is... It's a really good game. It's single level, and it is basic. But it's really, really rad. I don't know if TNA in the future... Beatles is supposed to be great, and that's Stern Sea Witch with a spinner added into it. Sea Witch with a magnet and a spinner. I don't know. I'm not sold on Beatles. I haven't played it yet but I love Sea Witch.
    33:33
    I played Beatles about a month ago and I walked into it thinking it's going to be so-so and I actually found it was really fun to shoot. I've never played Sea Witch though so I really couldn't compare it. Where did you play Beatles at? I went to the local what's his name here, the distributor, the closest distributor here. Pinball Pirate. Yeah, Pinball Pirate. I went over there because he was... He has one of free gold watch, too. He was fixing one of my games and got some time on it. And it was actually really fun. It's just the prices. If it was a $4,800 game, I think more people would own it. Nine grand?
    34:14
    What? Is that right? Six? $65,000? $6,000 for the gold? $7,000? No, it's higher than that. It's $7,900. $8,000 for the gold? it's a lot for what it is. And the fact of the matter is I enjoy Sea Witch. I like Sea Witch. Sea Witch is a great game. You should play Sea Witch. And Sea Witch set up correctly is an awesome game. It's brutal too. Yes, it's brutal but it's awesome. And it plays fast and it plays hard and it's a lot of fun.
    34:45
    The recycling of the play field? Eh. It's for some people. I don't know. But who outside of pinball would know that? Joe Blow off the street isn't going to know nobody's going to buy anything higher than the Bull crazy collector yeah now I remember it's 9, 15, and 25 Gold, Diamond, and Gold, Platinum not yet wow just as much as Magic Girl I believe it but it actually worked Gold, Diamond, and then Paul McCartney's divorce settlement you don't want to cause someone to kill John Lennon in Multiball it does it's also missing a link You know what props nice people have these days? They're bucks. There you go. Going back to Willy Wonka and a throwback to Dan who couldn't make it tonight. When we were watching the live stream from Buffalo Pinball, Dan said I think it needed a Rudy head of Wonka.
    35:44
    Oh my god. That would be terrifying. Especially during the Wonkatania scene. The best thing in the movie. Well, somebody could make a topper of Gene Wilder's head. That would be amazing. And, you know, it's probably not fully decomposed yet. You just got to find a way to fix it. Wow. Wow, let's get salty in here. That was dark. But was he buried or was he cremated? It fits with the movie. Man, you really had to dig for that one. Was he buried or was he cremated? I don't know. Richard Carter was cremated. Jewish.
    36:18
    Gene Wilder was Jewish, so I bet he's not cremated if he was if he held his police of the they bury their dead within like 24 hours I believe yeah they don't cremate normally so I didn't know that thank you alright a little irrelevant they should now make Hershey's pinball Hershey Jack Hershey Pennsylvania get it given to the factory so good luck finding a chocolate bar in that town I'll tell ya yeah Where are we? We are on to the Golden State Pinball Festival. How many hours? I don't know the hours right now. I didn't do the math.
    37:02
    I had other things to do. 30? 28 days. 28 days and that's May 17th, 18th and 19th at the beautiful, sunny Lodi, California Lodi Great Festival Fairgrounds. But tonight we're going to be talking about the tournament.
    37:21
    In past years, the tournament at Pinnagogo and the Golden State Pinball Festival, both, have been the pinball format. It's changing this year. It's a limited best game qualifying format. Initial buy, 10 entries, 30 paid entries maximum.
    37:40
    Entry buys are cash only. Don't bring your American Express card. It's no good there, fella. But there'll be an ATM machine on site or you can see your local money changer that would be my son Mickey Of course his interest rates are incredibly high Do we have a shout out from the Lemonade stand tonight Mickey? Yay!
    38:07
    Thank you Mickey Anyway, cash pop cash only one entry equals one play on one machine 12-game qualifying bay. Top score on five different machines count. Top 16 players advance to A division, match play finals. Players rank 17-32, next 16, advance to B division. Match play finals, IFPA, that's the International Flipper Pinball Association, 100-plus restricted. Finals are match play with three games per round and a 4-2-1-0 scoring. Basically, if you place first, you get four points. If you place second, you get two points. If you place third, you get one point. And if you place fourth, you get it. Big fat zero. Goose egg. Butt kiss, ladies and gentlemen. Okay. Rulers will adhere to the IFPA and PAPA tournament rules, which PAPA is the Professional Amateur Pinball Association, as closely as possible. Women's tournament. For the first time at the Golden State Pinball Festival, there is a women's only tournament. Okay. Well, don't mansplain that. Let us women folk talk. I have it right here on my phone. Well, then, Marianne Rusty, my lovely wife and hetero life partner, please go ahead.
    39:23
    Thank you. That was terribly frightening. Okay. So we have with the women's tournament, and this is the first time that they've had a dedicated women-only tournament. Now, for those who don't follow the IFPA, they do have a women-specific section, and all the rules will be adhered to. And my whole point of wanting to even play the tournament is so that I can get on the women's section instead of on everybody else's section. So, but again, it's a mass play format. It's $10 buy-in, cash only. In this case, the ladies have it just on Sunday from 10 to 11 is like warm-up time and sign-up time. And then the tournament starts at 11.15. And, again, that's Sunday the 19th with the $10 cash-only buy-in.
    40:24
    What you're shooting for, no pun intended, is 30 points. the ladies scoring will be 7, 5, 3, and 1 so 7 for first place 5 for second place 3 for third and 1 point for just showing up so the first four players to 30 points or the top four after six rounds advance to the finals the initial seating for the first round of pairings will be by IFPA rank on the day of the event, which for those who do play pinball in tournaments, you can go look that up. Just go find your name at the IFPA. What's the... IFPA pinball or IFPA.org. Okay. And then, of course, the rules will adhere to the PAPA and IFPA tournament rules as closely as possible.
    41:27
    Kids, just for a quick, Saturday will be kids. The kids tournament is, I believe, $5. Let me make sure so I'm not saying something goofy and giving bad information.
    41:41
    It takes place during the, there it is, kids tournament. Saturday only, $5 registration, and it will be at the Pacific Pinball Museum.
    41:53
    Boo, boo. I don't know. Are they going to have the trailer? I don't know if they're going to have the trailer this year. No Little Juju this year. They're going to have some exhibits set up, and, of course, they'll be running the kids' tournament. Excellent, excellent. And if you ever find yourself in the Bay Area of California, you should definitely visit the Pacific Pinball Museum. You go to their website. It's PacificPinballMuseum, I think, .org, but I'm not sure because I just type in PPM or Pacific Pinball Museum. Anyway, Art, Science, and History of Pinball, fantastic collection of games. They do a lot of great work in the community, so check them out. And don't be afraid if you've never played competitively. My first year ever going to a pinball show, I competed in my first ever tournament. I'd never played competitively in my life other than just among family and friends. And I took sixth in the novice division and had a really good time. So don't be shy. Come on out. Throw down your $10. Have a good time. Meet some new friends. And, you know, that's at the Golden State Pinball Festival. And just to finish up with the kids' tournament, the kids are 13 years old and younger.
    43:08
    Again, $5 registration at the Pacific Pinball Museum booth. The registration is first come, first served, and it closes at 5 p.m. or until all the spots are taken. the kids will have two tries on each of three games in a regular high score format they do not have to come back for finals uh for most kids it will take about a half hour for them to play since there are no finals for the kids tournament so any questions comments or concern then you go to goldenstinkinball.org perfect and you will find all the rules listed and ways to get to all the rules listed, but tournament is incredibly fun, and I think with the new format, I think it will move a lot faster,
    43:58
    and I'm actually really excited about the women's tournament. I think that's going to be a lot of fun.
    44:06
    Thank you. It's a good thing, and I've got to give a shout-out to Mr. Michael Hosier, who is actually the newest board member for the Northern California Pinball Association that puts on the Golden State Pinball Festival. Michael Hosier is working his backside off to put together the tournament for this year, and he's doing a really fantastic job.
    44:34
    The guy busts his ass. And he's also the commissioner of the Capital Quarter of Pinball League. Thank you. And a big shout out to Michael. This guy puts in time, countless hours time on his own for nothing other than the love of pinball. And if you see him or any of the organizers or volunteers, the people that bring games, you know, man, say hello. Offer him a bottle of water or another cold drink and just say thank you. Buy him a beer or whatever. Yeah. A lot of people really like beer. Because they put in, let me tell you, they put in a lot of hours to make this show happen and to make the tournaments happen.
    45:11
    Michael hosts every second Saturday of the month. tournament at Coin Op in downtown Sacramento. And a big shout-out and thank you to Joe Abate for keeping such great care of all those fantastic games down there. And speaking of which, and I never got to you, and I'm so sorry for that,
    45:30
    our newest guest, Jake, also operates at least one game I know of. So you want to give a shout-out to that location? Yeah, absolutely. So I just am pretty new into pinball, and I own two games, one at home, which is the Guns N' Roses. And I love music themes, so I was like, I want to build a music-themed pinball collection. And then my wife was like, yeah, our house isn't really an arcade, so if you want to get another game, just get rid of the Guns N' Roses. and I'm like, man, I can't, that's like my dream pin that I've always wanted, and it took me years to find this certain game, so instead, I'm like, hey, it'd be a cool idea to have a game, instead of just at the house, to have one on location, everyone can play, and there's a really cool sandwich place right by my house in Roseville, it's called the Sandwich Spot, and so what I did I'm like, man, I want to get a new game. I really wanted a Metallica or ACDC or Iron Maiden is probably my favorite game right now. But I was like, I'm going to get a new Stern game. And I chose the Munsters and not really because I like the theme all that much, but it was it had just come out. I thought it was a really cool package with the artwork and the gameplay looked pretty cool. but it hadn't come out before I bought it so I got it, got it set up about two months ago at the sandwich spot so it's a really cool little hole in the wall sandwich place and there's I think a foosball table there and my Munsters and great sandwiches go check it out if you're in the Roseville area and play some Munsters, it's a pro version, and I chose the pro just because of the price. It was going to be on location, and I figured at some point I can trade it eventually for a music-themed fan, Metallica, something like that for someone that wants to switch up their collection.
    47:39
    It'll work out. Get the Iron Maiden. There's a couple Iron Maidens around locally, so I want to get something a little different. I went with the Munsters, and it's a fun game. To be honest, I like I don't know if I would still have it if it was at my house and I was playing it every day. But it's cool playing it every couple days. And for me, it's still a brand new game because I don't have a thousand games into it. So I play a couple games every time I swing by there. And another quick shout out to Stern. They sent me, there was a flaw on the play field. One of the inserts had sunken down during the clear coat process. and the clear coat was all rippled, and I called up my distributor, and within two weeks, Stern had a fully populated brand-new play field. They sent out to me advance exchange and paid for shipping and everything. I swapped it out, sent it back, and they just repaired me. So it was pretty cool. That is awesome. That's a great testimonial, and thank you for robbing games and propagating pinball. And the Sandwich Spot, they have several locations in the Sacramento area, but the one in particular where you can play Munsters and football. Aqua Hills Boulevard or Pleasant Grove. Well, it is. It is. It's at 1010 Pleasant Grove Boulevard, Roseville, California. So, hey, man, if you're in the Roseville area, grab a sandwich, play some foosball, play some Munsters, and help support location pinball because that's really what it's all about. All right. We are on to the next topic. Yeah, because nobody would go into a restaurant to eat. Well, I said you could sandwich. I've gone to the movie theater just, you and I both have just played pinball. So, okay. So, Alex has a trip report from Sin City. Give it up, Alex. Viva Las Vegas. So, about three weeks ago, I went to Amusement Expo 2019, which, for those of you who don't know, also known as AMOA, American, I don't know what that stands for, but.
    49:44
    Alex went to public school, ladies and gentlemen. That is correct. It's an operator trade show. So it showcases off all the latest equipment.
    49:56
    So we're talking pool tables, darts, pinballs, video games, coin-operated video games, not console video games. So Sega had a booth there. Rock Thrills had a booth there. Bandai Namco had a booth there. No, there was no Battle Pod. I'm sorry. Ew. Yeah. There was Mario Kart, though. All right.
    50:19
    But, yes, the main thing... Oh, and Chicago Gaming had their booth there, too, with Monster Bash Remake and Medieval Remake and Attack Remake.
    50:28
    But the reason why I went there was to play Monsters Premium. And let's say I was pretty impressed with it.
    50:37
    I like the theme of the game and everything else. But the real reason why I went down to Las Vegas Was for Amusement Expo To be honest And to go check out some location pinball And I stopped at a couple of locations Yes, I did go to Pinball Hall of Fame Everything there was You know, kind of That's Pinball Hall of Fame, what else can I say Tim seemed like in a good mood So that's obviously a shout out to Tim Arnold For keeping 200, 300 plus games That he has to keep up and maintain And shout out to Beth Kane, who's a full-time volunteer there, who's basically kind of taking over Pinball Hall of Fame for Tim, and just working her ass off, keeping those 300-plus games in tip-top order. Saw some people cleaning them and doing all that when I got there, so that's obviously a good sign. Games were in better condition when I went there last time, so that's kind of a positive. I also went to... Did you play anything interesting or unique? I played a lot of Robin Hood. That's probably their oldest game there. Oh, Lady Robin Hood. That's correct. Yeah. Lady Robin Hood. I played a lot of older stuff. The newer stuff didn't really work. The newer stuff, I don't really play there because you can play those anywhere pretty much. I mean, New York, New York, Circus Circus, take for example, had all the newer stuff and better work in order. But the older stuff there worked pretty good, honestly. I mean, all the EMs played okay. I played a lot of Funland and a lot of – I was with Jeffrey Newman, if any of you guys know Jeffrey Newman out there from Reno Pinball League. We were playing some Challenger, which is that back-and-forth game similar to Joust.
    52:26
    Still not lead head-to-head, right? I call it pin hockey. I've never played one, but I've dined to try one. Isn't that the one with the tilting play field? That is correct, yes. Yeah, there was one at Pinnagogo a few years back. That's a neat-looking game. It's very rare. I didn't play pinball circus this trip pinball circus is quite a game to play I don't even know if they're remaking that or not to be honest but that's only one or two of the world that you can play and the one you can only play is at pinball hall of fame there was also when I went down to New York, New York there were ten pinballs there were three LEs and I think seven pros there was a Ghostbusters LE, a Walking Dead LE a what else what other, oh man I'm trying to remember the other oh a Kissed LE there was Simpsons Pinball Party, Batman Dark Knight Pirates of the Caribbean Deadpool Pro, Stern Wars Pro Guardians Pro did they have Elvis? oh no they didn't have Elvis Steve left the whole time. Oh, yeah.
    53:37
    I don't know what he's done. For once, I like Avatar. For once, I played Elvis years ago at Pinocchio, and it was set up correctly. It was clean. It played well. And it's not – it's Steve Ritchie. I know. Alex is just cringing going, that's blasphemy. Anyway, so, yeah, so New York, New York. I mean, all the locations are good. Check them all out. New York, New York, Pinball Hall of Fame. If you're new to Vegas, definitely stop at Pinball Hall of Fame. They have the most.
    54:08
    They may not be in the best of shape, but it's still fun to go to regardless. You know, man, with 300 games, I mean, that's – That's really difficult to maintain, especially for a pinball museum. They need help. So go out there, support, volunteer, do whatever you got to do to help them out. He was in a better mood when I was there. Okay. You know, the whole pinball community – That's right. It's all based on helping out, you know, somebody new who just got their first game or is looking for their first new game or their first game.
    54:35
    You know, somebody who's had games for a while but is still learning about maintenance or repairs. You know, the shows. I mean, all our shows are all pretty much, you know, it's all, hey, I'll bring two games. Well, hey, I'll bring a game. I'll help you load your games. You know, it's all about volunteering.
    54:53
    That's the only way these shows survive. and again I call on folks to do what you can when you can we all got busy schedules and lives but any way you can help out do that we got our show coming up in 28 days get on the GSPF website goldenstatepinball.org or gspf.org and if you can volunteer for a 4 hour shift do it if you can bring a game or 2 or 6 great And she can drive a truck because I'm not allowed to anymore.
    55:28
    Slight mishap with me and a Prius and a 27-foot truck. Anyway, but we don't talk about that. Prius had it coming. Yeah, that Prius had it coming. And I told them there were no phone books available. And if you know me, I'm only 5'4". I can't see above the steering wheel. 5'4"? I'm 5'4". I've never really stacked shit that high. That Prius probably turned like Iko. Yeah, it was, actually. There you go. I don't know. Okay. Anyway, so thank you for the trip report. So we're on to our next topic, which is are we expecting too much from manufacturers? No. Whoa. That's a tough crowd tonight. Tough crowd. Hey. So, all right. Brian, the floor is yours. Brian. Kay. The floor is yours. No.
    56:16
    You know, my expectations for the manufacturers, and I'm probably on the low-key level, is they're going to make games. I don't expect them to have always the awesomest, newest innovation or any of that stuff. I expect them, they have to make games or they have to make a profit. You know, they're in a business. That's all there is to it.
    56:37
    Other people may feel different. You know, I guess the best example was the Pirates of the Caribbean spinning disc fiasco. People lost their goddamn minds because they couldn't get it to work. Yeah. Now, the thing is, if they couldn't get it to work, they took it out because it didn't work. If they kept it in and it didn't work, people would have bitched. So either way, they're going to lose. But the best way they did it was to, we've got to take it out. It doesn't work. And great, perfect. That's going to make people happy. And if I can ever get my hands on a prototype triple disc, by God, I will.
    57:08
    You know, it's just, that's the way it works. I don't care if it's noisy and it breaks. That's the way it is. You know, they do prototypes for a reason. To find out what doesn't work. Bingo. And if it doesn't work, you've got to take it out. you know, it would be like if a car manufacturer was like, man, we've got this kick-ass hover mode. Does it work?
    57:25
    Not really. Doc Brown crashed it a couple times. Oh, they took it out. That's a great point. They have to have the games work, and they have to work not only in the home environment, where they're treated like with a baby's butt, basically. Yeah, like children. Versus on location, where it's pretty much anything goes. Or you wind up with baby butts on them. Okay, so manufacturers need to produce not only for home collectors like ourselves, but also for operators.
    57:59
    And this is a business. Pinball machines are meant to make money. Right. They're a money-generating piece of vending equipment, or, you know, I mean, for the most part, because they all come with coin doors and coin slots. Well, that's a point brought up on Wonka. But if you look at it, the mechs seem, I don't want to say simpler, but there's nothing overly complex on that game.
    58:22
    People have been bitching about JJP machines and how hard they are to upkeep on location since they put out Woz. Right. So let's make it simpler. And I think that's what they're doing with Willy Wonka, lowering the price to the standard. There you go. Hey, a fantastic theme that will draw people in. Ghostbusters, from all the route ops I've been talking to for the last two, three years, whatever's been out, Ghostbusters kills with the casual player.
    58:50
    The hardcore is like us, not as much. It's just like South Park. South Park still destroys on location. Yep. Because it's simple, it's easy to maintain, everybody knows the deal. And it's South Park. It's South Park. And you can kill Kenny and get a cool call out, and the very casual player goes, Oh, South Park pinball, let's play. and they have fun. And that's really what football is all about. So, Eric. Huh? Thought. Are we expecting too much from manufacturers? I don't think so. I think it was really interesting on the Twitch video for was it Twitch I don know if I got all these apps right but the video for Black Knight There was that younger guy that was working with Steve what his face Steve, what's his face? Steve Ritchie. But they had that younger kid that was really enthusiastic about the game. I think he's actually. He's the lead programmer. Yeah. It's his first game lead programming. Yeah. I forget his name. Yeah, I don't remember his name, but it was really refreshing to see somebody that had a lot of enthusiasm being a younger person paired up with somebody who's produced so many games.
    60:00
    With so many things being software driven now, I think they can get away with using simpler mechanisms and there's other things that can be built into the gameplay just via the software and some of the video things while some traditionalists may not care for. A lot of extra video stuff. If you look at some of the animations on Sword of Rage, they're pretty awesome. It's pretty high quality. Every game has gotten progressively better. It's pretty cool. It doesn't make up if the game doesn't play well, but I don't think we're expecting too much. And as long as they can keep it simple enough where a guy can maintain it en route, or a lady can maintain it en route, then that's all that really matters. As long as the thing makes money, people are going to buy them, and the business is going to be good. I don't think we're asking too much at all. Okay, that's a great point of view, and it's Tim Sexton. Tim Sexton is the lead programmer on Black Knight Swords of Rage.
    60:57
    BK3K. It's his first game as a lead programmer on. His third game he's worked on. He worked on Deadpool and Iron Maiden. He's helped out with lighting and stuff like that. Those are two awesome games. You get to do a Black Knight franchise game. That's a pretty big feather in your cap. Give me your money. So, Kendra, do we already get, no, go ahead, thoughts. I don't know. I don't think it'd be too much, I don't think we're expecting too much out of them because that's what they're there for. They're there to provide service to the consumer.
    61:36
    If they can't do that, then why are they in business? Okay. All right. Chris? We're not asking too much. Okay. Most of us are not asking too much. Like we were talking about earlier, not every new game has to innovate in some wild and crazy way. Pinball machines are meant to be fun. Make it fun. Give it an interesting theme.
    62:03
    Even if you move the same components around and make 10 different games with exactly the same components, put them in different spots, make it interesting. Give a good shot map.
    62:12
    Make the game fun to play. That's all that there is to it. code updating. And keep the damn code updating. Yeah, that's very important. I would say that's the one spot where we are not asking enough. Code updates. And I think Michelle hit on it. That's one spot where we're not asking enough. Back in the day,
    62:31
    in the 90s, there were not 9,000 code updates. There was maybe two or three. The game shipped complete. Pretty much complete. And now it's just, that doesn't happen. However, you don't have to burn ROMs anymore. But at the same time, they've gone the way of the video game, home console games, where it's like, we're going to release this product that kind of plays. And you're going to test it out. There's going to be an update every 1.7 days, and you may or may not get to play it. At least Jersey Jack will follow through on their coding. Well, you've got a whole video code now. There's significantly more coding involved, yes. Now, one thing that strikes me is when Stern puts out a new game. most of the features of the game may work. And don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-Stern. I'm not Stern bashing. Stern is a fine company and they make fine games on the whole.
    63:29
    But they tend to... On the whole! Thank you. But they also tend to push out games where the code doesn't get good until like Rev 3 or 4. before it becomes an actual complete game. I understand that there's a certain amount of reasoning involved in that.
    63:55
    And obviously they don't want to burn developer hours making code for a game that turns out to be a flop. Yada, yada, yada. There's a lot of different reasons for that. I understand that.
    64:06
    Brian's right. But did the game flop because it wasn't fun to play or because the software made it not fun to play? And that's the question, isn't it? Yeah. Put out a game that's got a more complete code.
    64:18
    That's kind of something that you see on Pinsight a lot. People comment on, should I buy this thing right away because it's my dream theme? Or should I wait? Like Batman. Yeah. Should I wait until the code's actually done? And then all of a sudden the game is freaking fantastic. But at launch, everybody's like, but it's Batman. Yeah. But it wasn't any fun. Right. You can get early adopters to sink the big bucks on an LE, and then they dump it because the code sucks. And then a year later, you know, you just saved a lot of money, and you've got an LE. It's an awesome code.
    64:50
    Absolutely. You brought up some great points, Michelle, with the code. Anything else to add? No. No? Okay.
    64:58
    Jake, you're up. I don't think we're asking too much. I do have kind of a comment, though. like I used to play in a dart league 10 years ago and it was a lot of fun. And then I noticed after a couple of years, they had dart machines where you set the high score and it would take your picture. And that was so cool. You could see people's picture on there. And then a couple of years later, now you can play online and you're playing darts. You're alone, but you're playing with other people. So I mean, I think they need to build that into games where some kind of Wi-Fi connection and online play. I know there's all kinds of, well, the machines may not be set up right, but the technology is out there to do it, and I think that would be a cool new step for games in the future. I agree, and Wi-Fi interactivity now is so dirt cheap to add into anything that there's real no— they don't really have a reason to do it. Like, I did try the tournament play thing for a while. I don't know how successful it was. But it would be cool to play against, you know, Joe Blow and Hoboken or something like that. What does that have to do with Hoboken? Well, hey, well, it's just because of Nico. Let's go play pinball.
    66:16
    That's like five days out of seven right there. Yeah. I can't do it. You're driving with a Bay-O. so yeah but yeah I think Stern's always kind of been playing it safe and they've been in business the longest exactly with good results, good sales it seems like they take less risks maybe but you can always count on a pretty consistent game whereas Jersey Jack tends to push the envelope and always has every time I see or get to play a Jersey Jack game for the first time. I'm like, this is so cool. This is awesome. Wow factor. It's got wow factor. Yeah. So, but, yep. That's what I got. Really good points of view. Brian Bannister.
    67:05
    If memo machines were to eventually go online, similar to what Jake was talking about, would they still be able to make money? That's actually our next topic, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. It's okay. You can go play through, sir. This is like, no, there are no rules. I was just wondering the other Brian was saying that wifi connectivity is so easy to add and stuff right now there's already virtual versions of those mobile machines already it's just like you guys were talking about they're made to make money that's the whole idea so if they were to go virtual they still why play on location if you can play on your damn phone Are we going to break into the next? We are, but we should let Rusty talk. And Alex.
    67:57
    I have strong feelings about this. And I'm going to get into that, and I'm going to prep this with him. Okay, now I'm going to kind of take a different route. No, we're definitely not expecting anything from the manufacturers as far as Atlantis. my only beef is the constant release of licensed themes all the time you know and don't get me wrong I sit there and I rock my world every time I'm playing Guardians of the Galaxy and I'm jamming to the music and having a really good time but I would like so many good ideas and crazy dogs There's so many good ideas out there, and the world is just full of stuff that's unlicensed, it hasn't been made into a movie, or a remake of yet another movie.
    68:57
    The inevitable reboot. The reboot, yeah. You know, where you have BK3K is extending on an original theme. That's great.
    69:09
    And JJP has got, you know, he's got the awesome stuff. You know, I can't sit there and talk on their stuff because in the one time they did do a non-licensed theme. It was Captain Cellphone and no one liked it. Yeah. Because it was Captain Cellphone, but it was a rad game. It plays really well. The theme's awful. But the theme is stupid. But it does all the things that we're talking about, though, too. Yes, yes. It has the internet connectivity and all that stuff. And it does all that. And selfies. And, you know, and now it's all about what Jake likes. all the rock and roll bands. You know what I'm saying? Oh, no, there's definitely money like that. Well, there seems to be a big theme. Yeah, well, there are older rock and roll bands that people who are in their 30s or 40s who are fans of that music growing up who now have a little disposable income. Yeah, yeah, we're going to buy Metallica or Guns N' Roses, even though Axl Rose, horrible, horrible. My God, that man's voice.
    70:11
    He's as bad of a singer as I am. Don't sugarcoat it. Things are going downhill fast. Lars, I'll request for 2.4. That's all I can do. Revenge from Lars. You realize that Lars has gotten old. That's what I would actually demand of the manufacturers is to let them look at something original rather than licensing out the next movie because I'm really not looking forward to the Lego pinball machine. No. You can build it yourself. It comes in 44,000.
    70:47
    Or the 20-story pinball machine. But if you're asking thousands and thousands of dollars for a game, the theme has to be relatable. If nobody knows about it, how are you going to move it? And we're in a world these days where most people literally cannot think for themselves. Yeah, that's true. It's true. Everybody kisses them constantly on the pin side and all the other parts. Original theme, original theme. People come out with original themes and nobody wants them. They want my system. Because they don't recognize. Because I've never heard of Mount Olympus before, and that would have been an awesome game. Well, they did make it, and nobody wanted it. Your point is entirely valid. TNA is an exception to the rule. And I agree with your point. It is an exception to the rule. The trouble is, it's not marketable.
    71:32
    Branding is the cornerstone of sales. if people don't subconsciously recall that name or that image, they're a tenth as likely to actually purchase that. I agree with what you're saying, but from a business standpoint, it's not tenable. Not at the current market. In the 90s when they were selling way more games, unlicensed games, totally, but it's a different time now. They can't afford those, they can't afford Junkyard or No Good Gophers or Circus Voltaire or Safecrackers. It all sold out at $1,800. They flopped when they first came out. Every single one of those games flopped hard. You can get Circus Voltaire on close-up right under the box for $1,800.
    72:22
    Safecrackers. Not now. They flopped. All those games flopped. They got killed by video games. Think about if you tried to bring out Circus Voltaire today. People would just lose their minds. I love that game. It's quirky and fun. It's strange and it's beautiful and it's fun to play. And if they remade it, I would buy it. Alex, are we asking too much from our team? Absolutely not. I think they're doing what they're told to do.
    72:52
    I mean, Stern's been in business the longest making games, so they have, where are I, a very good idea about knowing what things to do and, you know, what they've been going at.
    73:06
    Alright. That's good. I find it interesting everybody had pretty much a commonality in themes and little variations and that's awesome because that's what we're about here. The free-flowing discussion. I'm basically going to say the same thing as these guys. No, everybody's got their own little take on it. That's cool. I wasn't really where I was going, so I mean it was, but it's like, you know, the latest forum chatter has been all about, like, the latest one is everybody bitching about the H in chocolate in Wally Walker, and it doesn't match up to the original logo from the movie itself. Sacrilege! Do these people who are bitching about this have day jobs? They do, actually. Well, actually, you know what? I can participate on Pinstop. It was Oren Klaas who brought it up, and he, it was well thought out. He wasn't just saying, oh, I'm not going to buy this because it sucks. He said, look, Because this is what he does for a living. He does, you know, graphic design. And he caught this and said, you know, it's what some lazy person probably just sent over from the studio real quick. I'll copy, photocopy, send it over here to use this. Instead of really paying attention to the minor details. And I get, and from his point of view, being a guy who this is what he does, he's going to find this stuff. And I understand it. But, like, everybody complained about the art. I mean, I'm grateful that the art package is on games. They've really, the manufacturer really stepped up their game. and I don't want hideous art but at the same time, you don't play the art, man. It's what's under the playfield. No, the art draws you in. It does. You put quarters in the machine because that's what the machine is there for. To collect quarters. Right. Well, if you want to draw people in or men, just do like Ballad in the 70s and put big jubilees on them. Put balls on it. I thought that was just Eric Neff's house.
    74:57
    Right, there you go. So, but the other thing, too, is we're talking about, you know, like with Wonka, does it look like the Mets are maybe a little simpler, a little easier on maintenance, a little more bulletproof, if you will? You know, years ago, Pat Lawler was talking about that in a video. I believe it was the pinball 2K video. Yeah, he talked about how the game got overly complicated, and his idea is that's what killed it. Partly, it's like you have to realize when you make a game, you make a mechanism on a game, that thing has to work flawlessly for tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of plays on location. And if it doesn't, so, you know, I mean, everybody wants to see a levitating ball and they want to, you know, and that's all awesome stuff. But at what cost? What cost? Is it going to raise the price of the game five grand? Is it something that you can only have at home and you're going to be speaking on this thing? Is it going to make it a bitch to keep working on location? Right. I completely applaud Jersey Jack's decision to pull the three concentric rings when they said, you know what, this is not going to be stable. It's not going to be reliable. I realized it was problematic. It was problematic. And they made the proper business decision. They took a little heap, but at the end of the day, if you had any issues with your pirates at home. Nope. Zero issues. Plays great.
    76:22
    We got a little case of scurvy. But that was before. Yeah, I mean, it plays like butter. And, I mean, that game is just – There's so much going on. It's a very deep game. I mean, it's got everything. There's a million things to do. Every time the ball comes down to the flicker, you have a nearly infinite number of choices. Right, right. So it's just, you know, we ask a lot. We expect a lot. We're putting a lot of money into the games on location, and people are putting a lot of money out of their pockets to put them in. home, but at the same time, I think we also have to look at things realistically, that it is, A, a business, and B, there is only so much real estate, and, you know, there is only so much that a mechanical device can physically do. There are, you know, again, because unlike this podcast, this isn't NOM, it's pinball design, and there are rules. Well, and Spencer, that's a good point. If you look at, they're looking at the history, too. If you look at some of the older games from the 90s, the games that didn't last long in the arcade tended to have really complicated mechs. Twilight Zone. Perfect example. Star Trek Next Gen. Doctor Who. All those had way over-engineered and complicated stuff that didn't work. I have my Twilight Zone on location at work, and I've set it on free play, and I had to fix it three times this week. What did you have to fix? slot machine, the diverter for the gumball machine, just clean it, and then, yeah, the powerball sensor's not working again. There's a ridiculous amount of crap inside of that. Yeah, there is. It weighs the time. So those are all things to consider when we're saying we want more, we want more, show us more.
    78:10
    We all want it, but at the same time we have to be realistic about it. Which brings us into our next topic, Internet Connectivity Pinball. No. Yes.
    78:22
    Kendra, you're starting. Problem is, if you put a game on location and you need Internet Connectivity and you have a, say this is Starbucks.
    78:33
    They have a general Wi-Fi, free Wi-Fi. Free Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi is so clogged you can't get anything. Free Wi-Fi is always like you know Rosie the town pump at Long Beach Pier Let's be honest here If that being said you wouldn't put it on free Wi-Fi you would have it on a password restricted Wi-Fi Yes Almost every place that offers free Wi-Fi has the restricted one for the business The machine, if it's in there to earn money, is going to be on the restricted Wi-Fi plain and simple It's allowed. Why wouldn't they? Because the company is not necessarily going to be making money off the machine. You're putting it in there. Yeah, they get a split. Yeah. They get a percentage of the split. So they're going to want that money, so they're going to want it to work properly.
    79:26
    True or false. Yeah, absolutely. How's the owner of Sandwich Spot want the... You guys are doing profit sharing, I assume. Yeah, yeah. What's your cut? So, I didn't know what to do because I didn't know anyone else that routes games. So, we did 50-50. You just go, man, like, head first to the deep end. Good for you. I did 50-50. Okay. Good percentage. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. I take care of the game, and I come by every couple days and clean it. So, is this that dollar game? Yeah. Nice. Well, man, bravo to you for just taking the leap of faith. Yeah, hey. Buying a new machine and parking it somewhere? For me, it was, I mean. I'm a collector, so I buy a new machine, I'm like, no. No, it stays at home. No one. So that's the thing that allowed me to build a collection was to have it there. And so even though it's on location, I'm less. It's going to get paid for. I know. Eventually. I didn't put it there to make money. I put it there. So maybe it'll pay itself off after a certain amount of time. Once you have two games. Exactly.
    80:31
    And. It's a problem solver. Yeah. I mean, I thought it was a good option. I don't know if people, what the cut is normally, if there's like a standard. Usually, I hear 50%, I hear a 60-40, you know, 60 to the off. I mean, you know, it varies. He was excited to have it there because there used to be a shuffleboard, or a, yeah, shuffleboard. And then he paid six grand for the thing, and kids were throwing the puck into the glass. Oh, wow. And just damaging it. And so he was like, this thing's gone. That's funny you mention that because I asked Joe, who does coin-off, I was like, dude, why don't you guys get a big ball bowler or something like that? And he's like, because people will take those balls and throw them. Yeah, exactly. And break lots of things. Throw them for damage. His main thing was, if there's any damage to the game, it's on you. It's not on any part of being viable for it. And I said, that's fine, but if there's any claims where people are getting hurt because the machine or whatever, they hurt themselves, he has an insurance policy. Right. If you get hurt on a monster, you're probably... Yeah, yeah. If someone comes out of the game and attacks you... I mean, I might be playing really right. I may be more concerned if it was in a bar or somewhere where... I mean, but it's mostly... I mean, it's in a sandwich shop, so... I mean, yeah, it's my only new... It's not that beer. ...I've ever gotten, but it's in a pretty safe place. It's not going to stink of beer and vomit and cigarettes. Yeah. And there's actually regret. Oh, and there's always regret, yes. There's some sandwich crumbs. No sex in there. There you go. No. No kissing pal. Okay, so we kind of got segue'd here. But good information again, man. Kudos to you for just taking the dive and becoming a route operator.
    82:16
    Oh, Chris. Can I ask you a name of pinball? I have strong feelings about this. One of the things, there's a list of things that, for me, make pinball very appealing. One of the things is that, as far as gaming goes, it is real. We live, especially now, in a time when gaming is virtual. Everything is virtual. It's on your phone. It's on your computer. It's on your console. It's virtual. It's not real. Pinball machine is real. There's shit happening right there, and it's real, and you're making it happen. I don't want the virtual to encroach into that space.
    83:00
    Well, that makes sense. You make great points, and I'm going to expound on that here in a bit. Which direction are we going? Oh, we're going Michelle's direction.
    83:09
    Oh, Jake. Jake, do you have more to say? Yeah, on the Internet part. I would say on location, maybe not as fun, maybe.
    83:22
    Maybe not. I don't know. if I had internet connectivity on a game at my house and instead of playing the same game a thousand times being able to choose the option to play against someone else and see them playing or whatnot would just be another aspect to a way to play with someone else I mean yeah you could obviously have a friend come over but I don't know I think it's a cool idea, but not – you obviously have a choice, like in the darts, you can choose to play by yourself or with someone else or choose to play against someone over the wide drive.
    84:07
    Well said. Evan Bannister, thoughts? How about Brian? Brian Bannister, thoughts? Sorry. I should have another beer.
    84:15
    I already kind of gave my whole spiel about – Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but I already kind of hear my coach feel about would that actually be profitable because the whole idea behind pinball machines is it's like my dad is saying it's there, it's right in front of you, it's not virtual and it makes money too right yeah it's for making money funny I'm actually kind of against the whole internet connectivity thing in a pinball machine to me that seems kind of, uh,
    84:52
    it's kind of like a waste of time. If you're on location, okay, so if you're playing, okay, because this would be a newer pinball machine that not everybody would have in their house, so you'd be playing on location,
    85:09
    uh, it's kind of, what's the point? Okay, you actually left your home to go out and interact with human beings. So,
    85:21
    my son Mickey is just busy entertaining everybody. They're trying so hard not to laugh because he sounds a dork. Anyway, he's a good boy. He's a dork.
    85:32
    But, so you're already out interacting. Hey, play with people right there and, you know, do your own thing. Connectivity at home, I know I use the machines we have at home to practice. Okay, I don't want nobody seeing what I do most of the time because it's sad and losing my balls all over the place. No, I don't think connectivity is all that necessary.
    86:00
    He says balls. Thank you, Spencer. I can barely contain it. Anyway, very well said and I think you bring up a great point. Everybody's bringing up great points. I'm going to throw this out. So, pinball is real. It's kinetic. It's physical.
    86:18
    And Rusty and I, you know, at the shows, at playing on location, in our league, at friends' homes, you know, in line at the pharmacy, we talk pinball. And we meet people. We meet people every day of every, you know, age group. And with the older people, our age and that age range from the early 30s to on up to death. Oh, I love pinball. I used to play a lot when I was younger. Do they still make them anymore, that kind of thing? And you talk to them, they get excited. The young people, the millennials, if you will, the 20-somethings, Rusty and I meet so many young people that it's beautiful that they just discovered in the last month, six months, a year, they just discovered pinball for the first time. And it's so new and real, and it's counter to everything in our culture and society today with the Internet and with social networking. It's virtual. It's big. It's hollow. And it is. It is. But it's also the Internet which has brought almost all of us together.
    87:22
    The Internet, this podcast, not this podcast, but, you know, most of the pinball people in the Sacramento area, Rusty and I met first, or primarily me, online. And then we met in the real world. And meeting people on location and just playing a game, sharing a game, I call this the sandbox effect. When you're five years old and you're playing in the sandbox, and there's another kid playing in the sandbox, and you talk, and you're like, you like sand? I like sand. You like candy? I like candy. Let's be pals. And you build something off that. And, you know, we've made, Rusty and I, I mean, you're all family here now. We've all become friends and family. We play and lean. We go to shows. And we go to events together. Eric, you and Alex both went with us last weekend playing lamp out at the beach was open. Yeah. And that was a great experience. So we have all that together. And we have new people here tonight who've never been.
    88:21
    You know, we have Jake here, who's a rat operator, newer to pinball. You mind if I ask how old you are? 37. Okay. All right. So you're more in the generation that may have played pinball in high school and like that, like with Guns N' Roses. Yeah. But you're still – I started when I was about eight. My mom had played – she was in a bowling league. And so I'd go and press a few lanes. And you'd play pinball. I played pinball and wasn't so good at it. But it was an early memory. I have a pinball and then – That's awesome. Yeah. And then in junior high playing Guns N' Roses, I'm like, someday. Right. And you know what? It's your dream come true. I don't have it here actually right now. It's at Eric Neff's house, but I have a 1976 Gottlieb Cirque channel, and that is my grill game. And the reason it's my grill game is because me and my dad used to play that when I was a little kid at 7 But it that real social interaction that real connection with other humans in a social setting I think for us and we coming up on the Golden State Pinball Festival again and I will be having the honor to present the second annual Steve Sharma Spirit Award. And for guys like Steve, if you were fortunate enough to get to know him a little bit, or guys like Al Garber who were, you know, living legends in pinball community and especially in the Bay Area and Sacramento pinball community.
    89:47
    Pinball was just a vehicle that got the people together. The shows are the vehicle that get the people together. It's always about the people. It's always about the connection of, oh, you like pinball? I like pinball. Cool. Hey, you know, we're having a barbecue. You should come. And just that, you know, and I'm going to tell this story again to my, And I hope you're listening, my good friend, Jungle Queen Steve in Davis, California.
    90:10
    Rusty and I knew nobody. I talked to a few people online. We went to our first pinball show, Pinagogo, and Steve met us at the door and introduced himself, introduced us around. Sparky invited us to his barbecue. We knew nobody.
    90:29
    Keith and Dottie. Dottie invited us to their house after meeting and talking to us for five minutes. Invited us to their house to play pinball. The friendships we've made over the years have been amazing, and that's all part of that. And I'm not opposed to the connectivity of the Internet and leaderboards. You know, they've already done it on a somewhat limited basis with Friday Pinball 2.0, which was really cool. You can put it on your pad. You've got leaderboards from around the world. Really nifty stuff. And then, like, I don't know if it's Internet connected, but I know they're linked games with the new Cosmic Kart Racing with the P3 format.
    91:11
    Which we're going to have at the show. We're going to have Jerry Stellenberg is going to be there. Jerry's going to be there. We're going to have head-to-head P3 machines. Nice. And that's going to be awesome. I hear great things about Cosmic Kart Racing. But, you know, those things are all neat and they're all amazing. And I'm not opposed to them. But what I want people to remember is, and I'm throwing this out there again to all of you pinheads, how many of you are listening? Four. Four, yeah. No, we're getting about 250 hits a show. So thank you all, all you wonderful listeners. How much are you? How many in the room are me? Okay. I am wearing out that click button on my phone, dear.
    91:51
    Where was I? Oh, yeah. We don't pay for click bars in India. Okay. Fire. Anyway. I'm going to challenge everybody. Reach out. Step out of your comfort zone. Introduce yourself to a complete stranger at Golden State Pinball Festival or on location or any show you go to. And invite people to play pinball, man.
    92:17
    I've never had it go wrong for me. And hopefully it won't ever go wrong for you. I'm really hoping because I'm just now giving you advice. and if you know me well enough you know what a colossally bad idea that usually is but always entertaining though always entertaining man I've been described by some as a living cartoon character so if you dip on them and nothing worked the page master so you know with the internet connectivity I think it's a great idea because yeah there's the virtual thing aspect tied to it but I like the idea that you can step up to a machine and you're by yourself. And there could be like an option to, do you want to play against somebody in some other area? And with the way machines are going, there's no reason why you couldn't stick a couple of cameras in there. So you can actually watch the other person play and take turns. That would be amazing. It's been done, but it's stuff like that's been done before. Disney did it with Toy Story Mania, not Toy Story Mania, Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters. You just build a plane online with people while they were on the ride. and that was so damn cool where you could sit on your computer at home and play the game with somebody in a cart to help them score better and help you score better. It was fun. I understand it's virtual and I imagine it's like playing Red Dead Redemption online and that garbage which I don't play but I love the idea of being able to step up to a new game and play some dude in Budapest or China or someplace like that and be able to watch him while he plays and they can do the same for you. Like you can even like have a camera so you can see the guy's face while he plays. Yeah, it's virtual, but you actually get to interact with a real person on the other side of the camera. So that kind of connectivity I can get behind. Yeah, that would be amazing. Especially if you have live audio and you can mock them while they play. That would be amazing. Because that is part of playing against someone in real life. It would be amazing to be able to do that just because you can't do that now. In other words, that's how the darts are. Yeah, and it's just, you know, the world's massive, but it'd be really cool just to be able to step up to a game, even if it's at home. Turn on the game at three in the morning, oh look, there's some dude down the street you didn't even know who has the game. Or it's some gal out in New York or something like that. That'd be so awesome. Oh, crap. I really think that'd be cool. You can put my pants on.
    94:41
    We got that song. Unintended consequences. Alex? You know, I think online pinball would be pretty neat, just like Jake was mentioning about the darts that you can play against other people. I'd like to see that in a lot of bars, you know. I think it would do well at bars, not at public locations, just like sandwich spots or anything like that. Because I feel like bars are where people go to interact. Kind of clean up or scan any people. Right. I think it would be more of a dive bar. Or a bar cage. Is where it would be the appropriate setting for that. That's where you meet people and you know.
    95:21
    I feel like you could really... Yes, don't please finish. I'm sorry. I was going to give shout outs tonight for the unofficial sponsors. They're not really sponsors, but it's just fun to do this. Of course, Heineken Beer. Please send us beer.
    95:36
    Pacifico. What's the tea? Straight Up. Unsweetened Iced Tea. Coca-Cola. Some bottled water I got on sale. Crystal Mint. Crystal Geyser. And, of course, our favorite, Hershey's Small Cannies. And, of course, Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat. Not a sponsor, but I just love saying that.
    96:03
    Eric, you were up, sir. On what? Oh, connectivity and pinball, sir. Oh, that. Yeah. Are we still talking about that? Yeah, we are still talking about that.
    96:14
    We're going to be here until, like, midnight. No, we're doing great. I think the connectivity is okay. I tend to look at it more on the technical side of things, where I think that if you had internet connectivity with your games, you could be ensured that they're actually updated with the latest code. I know that people get bent out of shape. You go somewhere and you play a game, it's like, these features don't work because whoever's routing that game, they don't maintain it.
    96:44
    Unbox it, set it up, there it is. Boom! Have fun! Yeah, flippers work. Six years later, right. The play field's covered with dust, and they don't clean it. I mean, I think that would really give the manufacturers the opportunity to analyze how people are playing the games and then adjust the rules. You know, if they need to change the code so it's not making some mechanism wear out too fast and causing route operators to have to go in and do a bunch of extra maintenance, I think that would be a bonus for the manufacturer. Or balance scoring. Yeah, that's a really interesting point. These are great points, and that's the whole point of the route. Yeah, you can data mine the entire thing. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you can give feedback to the route operators and the manufacturers that way. Yeah, and I know that on Chris's favorite game, the foam guy game, where it's got the selfie mode, I've got pictures of you playing. You do, don't you? Yeah, I was just showing them those. You look only slightly confounded.
    97:41
    But I always thought that was the worst. I mean, the whole post office. Oh, yikes. Well, I always thought that was kind of cool. In fairness, I was drunk, okay?
    97:53
    But I think the Internet connectivity can be a good thing as long as it doesn't spill over into the virtual and make the physical experience less than what it was. Like anything else, if there are tools that are used wisely and properly, they can be a benefit, and if not, they can be a hindrance. Yep. I think that's the takeaway. I'm going to throw out one more here that's kind of been on my to-do list to talk about.
    98:20
    Interchangeable play fields. It was done more primitively. There were some conversion kits back in the late 70s, early 80s for games. And then, of course, you have the PIN 2K with the Revenge from Mars and Star Wars Episode I.
    98:38
    You had the Congo conversion kit. Is that why we just took the game and threw it in the trash? No, you can take, like, an NBA fast break and convert it to Congo. Oh, wow. Play-filled decals, back glass, whatever.
    98:54
    And then, you know, Highway Pinball, tried it. And rumor is that maybe Deep Root might be looking at something like that. And I'm just asking why. Because, I mean, look, on paper it looks great. But it's like nobody wants you to reinvent the wheel and nobody wants it. On paper, it looks great. And if you don't think about it too deeply, it seems like a really great idea. I can buy one cabinet, one power supply, one PC, one box, and with a play field and some art. And if I get tired of that play field and that art and that particular game, I can take it out. I can drop in. for less money than a new machine, I can drop in an entirely different game. Yeah, on paper it looks great. Yeah, and if you think about it superficially, it sounds fantastic. Well, P3's doing that. But theirs is a little different. Theirs is a lot different.
    99:51
    It's a lot more workable and thought out. Yeah. Jerry Steltenberg is quite the Bryce and genius cat. And a heck of a nice guy. I have yet to meet him, but... I met him at Pinnegogo a few years ago. Just a gentleman. Oh, well, good. I will meet him here in 28 days. 28 days to the Golden State Pinball Festival. You met him at the 2016 show, right? Yeah. He's from Texas. Yeah. I chatted with him a lot. Like every other Texas boy I've ever met, I have yet to meet a Texan in all my travels that would not give the shirt off their back to help a complete stranger.
    100:28
    That's absolutely... I'm kind of messed over, Pee Wee Hurley. Oh. The stars at night are big and bright.
    100:37
    Deep in the heart of Texas. And they're like, oh, God, don't say that. Give me a word. I feel bad. With the interchangeable play field now, it's going to be a lot easier than it ever has been. Like, I know guys here. I'm sure most people here have pulled, like, a WPC play field out of the door. And you're super fun. Yeah. There's, like, 20 connectors and all that stuff. and it's all got to come out. And they weigh like 200 pounds and there's odd necks sticking out various directions. You look at the new Medieval Madness remake and it's like two tables. Yeah, I saw it in my Munsters play field, two tables. Yeah, I'm like, that's it? That was easy. Yeah, like I did Buddy's ACDC for him years ago and it was just so, I went in there, I had Sharpies and a camera and it's just, don't need these anymore. Threw it on the ground and did it It took a half hour. Well, and that's part of what we're talking about with them engineering as best they can and getting it more modernized to, you know, make it simple for the route operator. It also makes it easier for the home person. It does. You know, but, you know, if you've got to switch out a play field, it's a whole lot easier to do. You can do it right there on location. Now, we are talking about fully populated play fields, not a blank. Yes. Fully populated.
    101:57
    Yeah. I've had that thought a lot. It's like, you know, nobody wants pinball companies to reinvent the wheel. We just want good games that are fun to play. That's it. It sounds overly simplistic, but it's like in the revamp, the remake Willy Wonka, the Charlie Chocolate Factory. It's like, what's the point? It's candy. It doesn't have to have a point. It's pinball. We all know the point because it's fun. Okay. Hey, you know what? We are an hour and 42 minutes and 31 seconds and counting, and I'm back on Slack, and I don't know why.
    102:35
    That's okay. Quit trolling. Okay, so we're into the shout-out and thank you land, or any final thoughts, if you will, and we'll start with Brian. Brian K. I don't know if anybody has been paying attention to this, but I'm sure the old folks here remember the Twisted Pins fiasco with Travis.
    102:52
    Evidently, all of the pinball stuff has been sold to somebody up there, And they got somebody now, again, working on the Whitewater toppers with better success, evidently. Oh! So it'll be interesting to see who, A, who bought the stuff, and B, who... What's better success? Is this success or it's not success? And I don't know if you ever saw the remakes, but, like, the pressing for the foil wasn't deep enough, so you had to kind of tilt it to get a nominal effect. It was quick, just right? Yeah, because the original effect, the die was gone, they lost it, And the guy who actually did it is dead. So it's been, like, the hardest thing to reproduce, it seems like, in pinball. But evidently there's now a gentleman who has figured some stuff out because he bought some of it or something along those lines. But the twisted pin stuff should be reappearing here hopefully soon with a better person at the helm. Because he's the guy who did, like, the original taxi ramps, the original time expander covers. that kind of, the PC was the one reproducing the topper domes for like fishtails and whitewater for pretty cheap. Like 50 bucks for the whitewater dome. Wow. That's cheap.
    104:02
    Somebody needs to make new domes. Somebody was a while back from Pinside a couple years ago. And for how many people back? A handful. Yeah, like 20 in their garage. And it doesn't look like it's that difficult. It looks like you'd be able to vacuum form it, but what the hell do I know? Yeah, deep forming. I can't even fix a neon sign, so. But you're learning. Yeah, thermoforming plastic and deep draw like that is actually pretty tough. And then the fact that the lexan, the particular color of it, too, the color's going to be right. Yeah. And you've got to either vacuum or hydroform it and retain its color. It's difficult. Yeah. So if you have any of these pinball secrets, please email us at thespinnerslit at gmail.com and you can win a free box of rice sarongi. The San Francisco truth. The gallon of rice is the choice of the guy. No, no, no, no. Don't say that.
    104:55
    Flavor that's in the pantry. Thank you for bringing that up, man. That's awesome news. Any other final thoughts?
    105:05
    Painted gold, perhaps some glitter. There you go. Painted black. Alex? Shout out to Jake for putting his monsters out at Roseville Sandwich. Yay!
    105:21
    Hey, bud! It's exciting. Shout out to Bud the dog. Bud, get out of the trash. Yeah.
    105:32
    Bud, be careful. There's a homeless guy in there. Eric, thanks for coming on. Your first time on the show. Thanks for having me. Oh, absolutely, man. Any final thoughts? I'll give a shout out to a guy I worked with named Rich Sutherland. He bought a Powerball off of eBay because he had some spare eBay bucks. Since I have two games at work that I've got set on free play, I took the Powerball and put it into Getaway, which drove people insane.
    106:01
    Nothing works on Getaway with a Powerball. It doesn't work. After I determined that that kind of sucked, I took it out and I put it into Twilight Zone, so now there's two Powerballs in Twilight Zone. Because you're a sadist. Because I'm a sadist. There you go. And it makes it insane when they're both on the play field during multi-ball. It's not, yeah. Twilight Zone is such a hate, love-hate game anyway, but then they have two Fireballs, Powerballs, Fireballs. There was a gentleman many, many years ago named, I think it was Rich Fife, who used to bring Medieval Madness all the time, and there was a Powerball in there. He never cleaned the game. He'd be like, he'd take his shows. It was out of work, and he cleaned it. Nice. And it got so dirty that you couldn't tell which ball was the Powerball. He actually took it out and held them in your hand. That was bad. Yeah, it was awesome.
    106:56
    Yeah, I have to thank him for that, and I also want to thank the person that made the slot machine mech assembly fall off the play field and hang by the wires underneath Twilight Zone, which was cool. I'm like, what's wrong with this thing? and I shoot a ball in there and he hears, oh, crap.
    107:14
    So you just tied it back up, right? No. You're a lousy op. No, I stuck some toothpicks in the hole and shoved the screw back in there. All is good. You've got to put some duct tape in there. You're a car guy. You should know that. Bailing wire or some duct tape? There you go. Didn't have time. Just take the bloopers work.
    107:30
    There you go. Awesome. That's all I got. That's good stuff, man. Again, it's wonderful to finally get you on the show. Kendra. I'm good. You're good. You got nothing. I got nothing. Okay. You got this drink? I do. If there were kids in China, they'd be happy to drink that. There you go. That's okay. Yeah, because Kendra has some lovely single malt scotch tonight, so you're enjoying the evening. It's a beautiful Saturday evening. What? Did we skip a day? April 20th. It's Friday. Was it Friday? Oh, God. I smoked early. Yeah. Wow. Okay. It's Friday. It's 420 somewhere. 4-27, or 4-19. 4-28. Anyway, it's April 19th. It's Friday. Well, I need to drink some scotch. And it's beautiful spring weather. We went to the drive-in last night. Anyway, Chris, back since the second episode, first time. Thank you so much. Chris Bannister, ladies and gentlemen.
    108:25
    Final thoughts. Shout-outs. Thank you. I'm really looking forward to the Golden State Pinball Festival. everyone involved has been working very very hard to as always put on absolute best show that can be put on shout outs to all of our volunteers the show doesn't happen without our volunteers the show doesn't happen without collectors bringing their machines this is the most organic and grassroots pinball show there is.
    109:04
    I mean, everybody does it just for the sake of doing it, for the passion, for the fun of throwing a gigantic three-day pinball party.
    109:17
    And to see your friends. Shout out to Pismo Arcade. Tony, love you, brother. Can't wait to see you at the show.
    109:28
    So we're getting close. it's a free range festival shout out to super volunteer practical Steve that would be practically Steve not Richie practically Steve Richie Michelle final thoughts shout outs thank you so much for coming on the show it's great having you you got to do it again soon because we got to do the all women's episode where lots copious amounts of liquor will be served there will be copious amounts of swearing I want the women's opinions on everything in pinball and their point of view and I'm just going to sit back and kind of moderate, basically just keep the raft from crashing into the rocks but it's wonderful to have you so much, thank you so, Jake I just want to thank you guys for having me come out and hang out absolutely I stumbled into this podcast maybe six months a year ago And you're not firebombing the house?
    110:31
    Podcasts? What? I've got to listen to this. So I quickly listened to them all, and it's cool to meet you guys and be a part of it. And also looking forward to Golden State. I brought my seven-year-old son last year. Awesome. We just had a blast. We loved it. And me and him just hung out for the day and super excited to come this year. And I'm going to bring my Guns N' Roses. Nice. Wow. I'm going to volunteer too. Awesome. It's going to be cool.
    111:04
    Brian Baxter. I got it right this time. Yeah, for sure. Shout out to Spencer for getting his name right finally.
    111:13
    I have no final thoughts. You have no final thoughts? That's all right, man. You know what? It's your first time on the show. You have any final fantasies?
    111:24
    Auntie doesn't want to know. Parents are present. It's a game. Just ride her down. Get your mind out of the gutter.
    111:32
    There's only room for one mind in the gutter. That's right. I will fight you for that. I've actually been fairly well behaved tonight for me. Because as Rusty always says, I can only go somewhere twice. Second time to apologize.
    111:47
    Rusty, my lovely wife. You know what? I discovered last week Zen Studios put out an app for Williams Pinball.
    111:58
    And it's been, okay, they're in for it for money. Who isn't into anything for money these days? And why develop an app? But this one, the graphics are very good. I started off with Medieval Madness. And it cost a lot for like the last week and a half. Yeah. And, you know, and then after about, oh, 30 or 40 plays, I finally got to move on to Fishtails. So, anyway. What an accomplishment. I know. So, other than trying to figure out how to, you know, other than running out and buying all the stars or points or whatever, but in and of itself, just the play, just the graphics, even on my not-so-tiny LG V20 or V10 phone. Oh, gosh, I'm so way out of state here.
    112:53
    Graphics are good. You can see everything going on. You can see the ball shooting. So it's a good time waster for a while. You know, you've got to wait on a bus or whatever. Play Zen Studios' Williams Pinball.
    113:12
    Me? Yeah, it's free. Pinball Arcade had it first, and they lost the license to Zen, I think, right? Yeah. To Zen Studios, yeah. Yeah, Pinball Arcade now only has Gottlieb and then Daddy East Vegas. stern, yeah. Yep. So, is it up to me? Oh, wow. All right. We are two dispensers. All right, okay.
    113:32
    I'm going to give everybody my summer check off list. It's something I do every summer, even though technically it's not summer yet, but we're in California. Spring lasts two days. It goes from 50 degrees and raining to 92. Anyway, beautiful breeze out tonight, beautiful moon. Gotta love it. All right, do some cool stuff this summer. You only live once, and as people and know me really well. I looked down the barrel of death three years ago, and I made the Grim Reaper my bitch. So with that said, don't waste any time, man. My summer list, and you should do this too, or make your own list. Go check out a book at a library. Yeah, you can go buy a book, but go check out, support your local library, man. The Temple of Knowledge and Wisdom. Read a good book this summer. I'm going to suggest something by the great Mark Twain. But, you know, whatever, support your both.
    114:22
    So, yeah, check out your local library. Support your local library. A lot of good stuff going on there these days. Some of you even have 3D printers.
    114:29
    No way. Yeah, a couple of our local libraries, like four branches in Sacramento area have 3D printers. So you can go do cool stuff and play with and make your own proton accelerator out of plastic.
    114:43
    Get a dip cone. You don't have to go to Dairy Queen. There are other places that have them. My personal favorite is Dairy Queen. An old-fashioned, good, simple, delicious summer fun that everybody can afford. And, you know, you take the whole family for like $10. So go get a Dip Tone. Enjoy yourself. Enjoy life. Next up is A&W. If you don't have an A&W near you, I pity you. A&W. Check your fried chicken. Yeah, check your old Kessie. Some of them have A&Ws. Demand. Not ask. Demand that they put it in a frosty glass mug. Okay, this isn't normal. There are rules. you know man there's something just magical special and if you can't get to that soda pop in a glass bottle coke is always works orange crush squirt in a glass bottle ice cold there's nothing better man it's summer and go play pinball all right what's up next on my list of you gotta do uh go swimming not in a pool okay pools for sissies or old people with bad knees like me um i didn't grow up swimming in a pool i grew up swimming in a river full of carcinogens and fish and garden. No, this is actually very nice. And so go out, find a swimming hole, take friends, take your family, take the kids. It's going to be good. Go out and just live and get off the internet for a while. Get off my podcast for a while. I'm not making any money, so who cares? You'll get back to it later. Do it when you're in traffic. But yeah, man, go to a local swimming hole. Find a creek or a stream or a river or the ocean if you have the means to get near the ocean and just enjoy that. And since this is Sacramento, if you're going to go to the river, put on a goddamn life preserver. Yes, please do. Oh, please, folks. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Water safety, folks. Water safety. You're not as good of a swimmer as you think you are. There you go. Please be careful.
    116:30
    Okay. Yeah, I, oh, you know what? And finally, we went for the first time last night since October, since Halloween, the drive-in. If you have a drive-in theater near you, don't hesitate. You know, grab family, grab friends, grab the kids. They love it. Go to the drive-in. Just like pinball, it's one of the truest, most American things out there. It's uniquely American. And, yeah, they've got them other places in the world. But, I mean, let's be honest. I mean, it's American as mom's apple pie, Chevy trucks, baseball, and rock and roll and pinball. So go check out your local drive-in. Support that. It's a fantastic. affordable, enjoyable evening for everybody. And ours is being extensively remodeled. We were just there last night. Saw a Lego movie, too. Anyway, that's the summer list. My shout-outs to everyone. I wrote this before. I knew Jake was coming tonight. To everyone who puts games on location.
    117:33
    You know, Home Collection is great, and the shows are fantastic, and we're grateful for them, and we love them, but the real rubber meets the road has always been, and I think will always be, location pinball. So to all you wonderful people out there that put pinball machines on location and put in all that hard work for very little money, we salute you.
    117:56
    Salute! Sincerely, thank you very much. We salute you. All right. Well, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, this has been episode 22 of the Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast as always with the round table everybody have a good time? yeah! alright so we'll be doing it again real soon and don't forget to tip your server please place your seats in the upright position and get ready for landing this has been episode 22 of the Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast and come on boys and girls you all know the words Play pinball. Keep America strong.