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Pinball Innovators & Makers Podcast Ep 10: PinBall ReBorn: The Showman and The Muse

The Pinball Network·video·1h 10m·analyzed·Aug 8, 2023
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TL;DR

Pinball Reborn's Jeffrey Jones charts his journey from casual collector to skilled restoration expert, now pursuing a retheme project.

Summary

Jeffrey Jones, founder of Pinball Reborn restoration service, shares his non-traditional entry into pinball collecting and restoration. Beginning with a $6 Million Man machine purchased for his home theater basement, he evolved from basic repairs into high-end full restorations (200-250 hours, $5,000-$10,000+ per machine), building a 1,000-follower social media following. The episode culminates with his wife's influence pushing him toward his most ambitious project yet: a System 11 retheme powered by FAST Pinball hardware and PinSound audio, after being inspired at Chicago Pinball Expo.

Key Claims

  • Jeffrey Jones has completed approximately 40 restorations for himself and others

    high confidence · Jeffrey states: 'I've restored... I think I'm up to about 40 restorations I've done for myself or for other people'

  • High-end restorations typically require 200-250 hours of labor

    high confidence · Jeffrey: 'I probably spend 200 to 250 hours on a restoration'

  • Parts costs for restorations typically range from $5,000, with higher-end restorations costing twice that or more

    high confidence · Jeffrey: 'it's very typical to spend $5,000 on parts. Yeah. And for even higher restoration, twice that much is not uncommon'

  • Pinball Reborn has nearly 1,000 followers on social media

    high confidence · Jeffrey: 'i have just under a thousand followers now which i know is peanuts compared to some people'

  • PinSound board will be released for System 11 machines

    medium confidence · Jeffrey: 'i want to do at least a system 11 because i heard that uh pin sound was going to be coming out with a board for system 11'

  • Jeffrey Jones works full-time as a civilian engineer for the Navy/DoD

    high confidence · Jeffrey: 'I work full-time as an engineer for the navy' and 'I am a tenured engineer for the Navy. I work for the DoD'

  • Bad Cats was initially criticized by the community but is now highly sought after

    high confidence · Jeffrey: 'i went back into a pinball group you know learn my ways to say hey i just bought this what do you think oh that game sucks... but then you look at bad cats today and yeah everyone says just the opposite such a great game i wish i could find one'

  • Jeffrey's wife is his pinball buddy and a key influence on his collection decisions

    high confidence · Jeffrey: 'my wife is my pinball buddy you know I want her to be happy as long as myself' and multiple references to her influence on machine purchases and projects

Notable Quotes

  • “I was part of the problem for pinball declining. I grew up in the generation where video arcade was the newest, best thing.”

    Jeffrey Jones @ early — Demonstrates demographic shift from pinball to video games and provides context for his generation's disconnect from the hobby

  • “it's not an economics thing. It really is a labor of love on your side, although you deserve to be paid for your hobby work... but also for the person who's getting their machine restored, it really is an emotional attachment they want.”

    Jeffrey Jones @ mid — Core philosophy on why customers invest in high-end restorations despite poor ROI; establishes restoration as passion-driven rather than profit-driven

  • “I am a tenured engineer for the Navy. I work for the DoD. And that's my career. That's where my career is taking me. And that's my retirement blanket. And I don't think pinball, at least for me, would replace that.”

    Jeffrey Jones @ mid — Clarifies that Pinball Reborn remains a hobby and won't become a full-time business; suggests potential post-retirement pivot

  • “Your wife is quite the muse, I must say.”

    Dan Rosenstein @ mid — Recognition of wife's influential role in driving Jeffrey's major hobby decisions and projects

  • “I said, I have no doubt I can make a machine look beautiful. I said, but I don't want a machine that looks beautiful, and then you can't play it, or it sucks.”

    Jeffrey Jones @ late — Expresses concern about retheme project—confident in restoration aesthetics but anxious about coding/gameplay implementation

Entities

Jeffrey JonespersonDan RosensteinpersonPinball ReborncompanyFAST PinballcompanyPinSoundproductChicago Pinball ExpoeventAaron DavispersonAlexi Kottperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: High-end pinball restoration economics fundamentally misaligned with resale value; survival depends on customer emotional attachment, not ROI

    high · Jeffrey and Dan both acknowledge 5-10x money spent on restorations vs. resale value; persists because of collector emotional attachment, not economics

  • ?

    community_signal: Social media documentation of restoration work building niche audience; Pinball Reborn achieving ~1,000 followers in highly specialized community segment

    high · Jeffrey started Pinball Reborn Facebook page in 2019 with zero expectation of growth; now has nearly 1,000 followers; Dan validates this as significant for niche-of-niche market

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community perception of Bad Cats has dramatically reversed from negative to highly positive; now considered a sought-after collectible

    high · Jeffrey initially received criticism ('that game sucks') but now community sentiment is 'such a great game i wish i could find one'; machine value trajectory improved

  • ?

    event_signal: Chicago Pinball Expo serves as inspiration catalyst for major hobby projects; FAST Pinball booth demonstrations directly inspired Jeffrey's retheme commitment

    high · Jeffrey and wife visited FAST booth at Chicago Pinball Expo, wife's enthusiasm ('let's do it. Let's do it') directly triggered retheme project decision

  • ?

    community_signal: Wife serves as primary creative muse and decision-maker in Jeffrey's pinball hobby direction; multiple major purchases and projects directly influenced by her preferences

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.211

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Pinball Innovators and Makers Podcast. Hi, and welcome to the Pinball Podcast focused on the innovators and makers who are crafting homebrew, custom, and rethemed pinball machines. the technology that makes these personal projects possible, and the companies helping with these journeys. Custom pinballs are a deeply personal and technically challenging undertaking, requiring time, money, knowledge, and most importantly, the desire to make it happen. I'm Dan Rosenstein, your host. Join me, and let's go under the playfield and see what's needed to make a custom pinball possible. Hello, pinball innovators and makers. It's episode 10. Thank you for all the support, feedback, and listening. For this episode, we have a pinball maker with a non-traditional story to tell, Jeffrey Jones. Jeffrey, welcome. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell me and the listener how you got your start in pinball. What's your pinball origin story? Hey, Dan. First, I want to say thanks for inviting me to do this.
1:17
I graduated from high school in 1985, and honestly, I can say that I wasn't attracted to pinball. I was part of the problem for pinball declining. I grew up in the generation where video arcade was the newest, best thing.
1:36
So I didn't really play pinball until about 12 years ago. My wife and I bought a home, and it had a large basement, and I wanted to put in my dream home theater.
1:54
$6 Million Man
game
Cometgame
NBA Fast Breakgame
Elvira and the Party Monstersgame
Bad Catsgame
AC/DC LED (Bolt Edition)game
Police Forcegame
Whirlwindgame
Terminator 2game
Indiana Jones (Williams)game
Tales of the Arabian Nightsgame
The Greatest Showmanproduct
Radcalsgame
System 11product

high · Wife selection of Bad Cats ('I love it'), demanding Whirlwind replacement, pushing retheme idea for years, enthusiasm at FAST booth all directly drove major decisions

  • ?

    community_signal: Jeffrey Jones transitioning from high-end restoration work toward more ambitious retheme projects using modern platforms like FAST Pinball

    high · Wife's pushback over years finally breaks through at Chicago Pinball Expo; Jeffrey now committed to System 11 retheme with FAST hardware and PinSound

  • ?

    technology_signal: Adoption of FAST Pinball platform and PinSound audio board for classic System 11 machine modernization

    high · Jeffrey planning to use FAST Pinball control system and PinSound audio for System 11 retheme; expressed concern about coding capability but committed to project

    • I said I wanted it to be commercial-like. I wanted it to have a candy counter. I wanted it to have a popcorn machine. I wanted it to have a Coke machine.
    2:07
    And my wife likes to make fun of me, but she goes, remember when you said, wouldn't it be fun to have a pinball machine?
    2:17
    That's what started it all. My first pinball machine was a $6 million man I bought locally. I think I paid $400 for it. It worked mostly. The save-a-ball mech between the flippers didn't work, but we played it. And then I had problems. I had no experience. I'm a mechanical engineer, but no electrical experience. and decided I probably needed a new rectifier board. Had never soldered before.
    2:56
    So bought a new rectifier board, put it in, didn't work, ended up giving up, called someone to come fix it for me.
    3:05
    He came out, took my board away with him, came back, got it going. We played that game for years. And then I started digging into the game. Then I started thinking, well, I should learn how to clean it up. I should learn how to put new rubber on it. I should fix that center pop-up, you know, save-able.
    3:24
    So I got my feet wet doing that. It was the perfect machine to get started on. But I can remember being afraid to touch the circuit boards. I mean, I just was afraid I was going to break something.
    3:37
    So after we bought that, we bought a Comet. Well, actually, before you go to the Comet, if you don't mind. So the fact that you started the $6 million man, that story is amazing. You basically just went down the rabbit hole very, very slowly and just like as it needed to happen. The nice thing about that $6 million man is it's built right in that time frame as the whole pinball industry is moving from electromechanical to digital. And so you get, first of all, it's a fantastic game to play. um but you and and in addition to that you get a play field that's kind of the best of what electromechanical had to offer by that point in terms of mechanisms and robustness but you have a digital circuit boards which are just coming to to market but on the other hand the the code the capability of them it's actually pretty nicely primitive and i don't mean that in a negative way so um did did you feel that you ended like knowing now what you know before you go on for the rest of your journey. Do you feel looking back and that $6 million man was actually a good first purchase?
    4:39
    It was a great first purchase, but I wouldn't buy one again. As I got more and more into the hobby, I wanted more and more. And I can remember right before I bought it, a neighbor of mine said, hey, there's a guy down the street who collects pinball machines. Oh, cool. So I knocked on his door, introduced myself, told him what I was doing.
    5:05
    I didn't have the lingo, but I said, so I've seen some pinball machines have digital scoring, and I've seen some pinball machines have a reel that moves. I said, I don't know which kind to get. He said, well, those are called solid state and electromechanical. And what he said, and some may disagree if you want to work on it all the time get an electromechanical otherwise buy a solid state so i'm like okay great i know nothing about pinball so i'm getting a solid state and that's when i found the six million dollar man got it so um then so so so but in terms of a first machine to kind of get your feet wet would you say that's a that's a good place to start is around that it was a great place to start it's it's not a real complicated machine you know there aren't ramps it's fairly simplified and the boards are fairly simple it was a great first machine I don't regret buying it at all so so then you take off to space I think you were saying comment before I interrupted you moved you back so let's continue down your journey and then we bought a comet, the roller coaster theme. And the playfield needed shopped. I ended up going a little bit further. I took most things off the playfield. I cleaned it, put new rubber on it, brand new plastic set. New ramps weren't available at the time, so it didn't get new ramps. And then as far the cabinet goes uh it wasn't in too bad shape but it did have some planking going on so i not knowing what to do i got some stain some black stain and i and i filled in all the planking and not taking the coin door off not taking the rails off and i and then i painted on a clear coat to seal it in you know it looked pretty good you know it's definitely not the right way of doing it I wouldn't recommend anyone doing it that way now, but it was a good learning experience. And sometimes those learning experiences are the way to go. I'd be lying if I didn't say that at least one of my machines didn't have black Sharpie on it to cover up a blemish. And it works. So, you know, you do what you got to do.
    7:27
    So we liked the Comet. It was our first introduction to ramps. and we bought an NBA fast break next and we didn't really like it and that what that taught me was I looked at the NBA fast break I watched videos of the NBA fast break it looked fun but it taught me that you there's more to pinball than just how something looks it a feel is a big part of it so i sold it and the guy i bought it from had two machines for sale and i said hey is your other machine for sale he goes yeah i said i sold nba fast break i want to buy the the other one didn't know anything about it and it was called elvira and the party monsters here we go now elvira and the party monsters had a someone had clear-coded the play field Someone had put new plastics on it. The play field was very, very good. It was missing one of the arches of the ramps, and I knew there was supposed to be a switch there. So I ended up figuring out how to fix that.
    8:37
    But I thought, okay, I'm really enjoying this. I'm starting to get hooked. I'm not hooked yet, but I'm starting to. I'm like, I have a game with a clear-coated play field, a beautiful play field, but the cabinet decals were wrinkling. They were faded. I did. Okay, I'm going to learn how to restore a pinball cabinet. And I did. It turned out, I was very happy with it. Didn't really make any major mistakes. Ended up powder coating it a really bright green, which matched the green on the game. And I can remember going into a group, I think it was a Facebook group, and said, hey, what do you guys think about this? You know, and I didn't, I don't do this now, obviously, but I said, you know, do you feel like this helped the value of the machine? And I immediately found out that people can be fickle. And I had people saying, well, you decreased the value of that machine by half. You know, you did this, you did that. so so i'm like oh okay so uh i ended up eventually i ended up trading that machine um towards a a new return do you still have the comet at this point or you i don't you don't i don't the uh the machine i have in my lineup that's last the longest and i bought it not too far from this time i probably bought it close to 10 years ago it was a game that a local guy was selling he had other machines and my wife went in and we tried it out I said what do you think and she said I love it well my wife is my pinball buddy you know I I want her to be happy as long as myself you know so so I said do you want to buy it because yeah let's buy I think really fun it's cute it's got a quirky theme um and it was called bad cats
    10:43
    and again i went back into a pinball group you know learn my ways to say hey i just bought this what do you think oh that game sucks that game only has one ball you should have spent your money on something else i'm thinking oh my gosh you know i thought i had something that was fun here right i guess i guess i guess i'm wrong of course you look at bad cats today and yeah everyone says just the opposite such a great game i wish i could find one i wish and i still have it it's been in my lineup the longest and it was one of my early full restorations not high-end restoration like i'm doing now but it was a full restoration and uh it still looks great it still plays great and we still love it so um so so keep keep walking through through through your journey so you were talking i think you were saying something about a stern machine around that time well we traded it i i knew i wouldn't be able to sell elvira and the party monsters for as much as someone offered to trade an acdc uh what was it called acdc led it was the led version it was it It was like the Bolt, what they call Bolt Edition now.
    11:58
    Traded for that because I knew if we didn't like that game, I could sell that game for a good price faster than I could sell and find the right buyer for the Hellfire and the Party Monsters. And that's what happened. We played the game for a while. It didn't resonate, and we sold it, and I can't remember what we bought in its place.
    12:18
    But so time goes on. I buy more machines. I'm learning how to fix them. I clean them up. I play them for a while. I sell them. I get something else. And I decide I want to tackle a high-end restoration.
    12:42
    I want to see what it entails, all I have to do, and can I do it now? So, Jeffrey, before you go on, can you highlight what the difference in a high-end restoration, in your mind at this point, not as it is right now, but back when you went to go tackle this, what's the difference in a high-end restoration, what you've been doing up until this point?
    13:07
    My definition of a high-end restoration is every nut, bolt, screw, everything comes off. Every inch of the machine is polished, shined, replaced, fixed. There's nothing that's avoided. The play field is replaced with new. It's restored. It's clear-coated. It gets new plastics. It gets new targets available.
    13:32
    The boards are serviced. Everything is gone through. um it's it's been put back into as new or better condition than it was you know back in the day
    13:47
    and i know people had different definitions on restorations and i and i wish as a community we could come up with a better definition because one person will say i restored this machine and what they mean is i wiped it down and put some new rubber on it
    14:05
    and one person will have put ten thousand dollars worth of parts and and uh and uh and you know powder coating or chrome or whatever into a machine and say i restored this machine now in my opinion neither one of those is really accurate uh i think a lot of people's definition of restored is back to factory-like. So when people like me restore, air quotes, a machine and we put Chrome on it and we put a new play field on it and we maybe add a few mods or add LEDs, I wish we had a better word for that than restore. Totally fair, but for the purpose of this interview, we have a good definition, working definition of high-end restoration. So you decide that you want to go down this route. What happens? Right. So I decide I do not want to attempt this
    15:07
    on the Tales of the Arabian Nights or Indiana Jones. I want to find a fun but inexpensive game to try it that way if for some reason things go south so i bought a police force it was it was players quality uh it uh it worked it had a few issues um but i went through it every everything i i learned how to restore the play field i replaced the inserts i clear coated it with with 2k automotive clear coat i learned how to touch up the artwork i've gotten better now but that's not my expertise. But I went through everything and I was really, really proud of it. And then as most of my machines go, it didn't stand the test of time and I ended up selling it and getting something else.
    15:58
    And the person you sold it to, did they appreciate the level of restoration work and effort that you put into it? Or was it they were looking for a police force? They were just looking for a pinball machine like what how did how did their what they got and what they expected and what you did match or mismatch i don't remember a lot about about the situation but i do know that the guy who bought it was putting it on location at some kind of ski resort so i think he was looking for something that had been totally gone through it was going to be dependable. I actually have contacted him years later and said, hey, I'm just kind of curious, how's it gone? And he's gone, had to adjust the switch or something minor, but other than that, it's been, and he still has it. Jeffrey Jones delivers a quality restoration. So you sell the police force, by the way, just as an aside, you mentioned NBA Fast Break and police force two of my absolute favorite machines but that's that that's not here nor there um so where do you go from here okay so where we go from here so i i restore this machine i'm happy with it and now i'm getting the bug now i'm getting to the point where i am really enjoying having really nice machines in my lineup so i start restoring other machines of mine And I can I don really have a list together but um no worries but i uh i restored a whirlwind for us my wife and i um i restored a tales of the rabian knights um i've restored i think i'm up to about 40 restorations i've done for myself or for other people because what what happened was after i had restored probably my third or fourth game for myself, I was really proud of it. And I would go on a Facebook group and say, Hey, check this out. And then I had a buddy of mine say, Hey, I've got this getaway at the piece of junk. I, he goes, well, actually he still tells me to this day, I can't believe you sold that beautiful police force, but I want this getaway to look like your police force did. So I said, fine. He's a neighbor of mine too. You know, a good friend. So I said, great. I said, this is an opportunity for us to work together. Let's, let's do this restoration together. So we, we tear it apart and we are sanding it down and we're, we're getting all the cabinet ready. And, um, and all of a sudden the news is talking about this thing in the called covid so all of a sudden we can't work together or shouldn't work together so we we don't and i am doing the whole restoration by myself at least you got time on your hands i had plenty time on my hands so but he lo he has this game to this day he plays it almost every day he he loves it um he uh he's just so proud to have it i'm glad he's proud to have it it's it really turned out well so um but then as i had another friend say hey can you restore a game for me i'm like yeah i guess so you know and then as i got more and more restoration under my belt then i started having people who i had that didn't know contact me and say hey i've been seeing your work you're doing some great work can you do one for me now keep in mind i i work full-time as an engineer for the the navy i'm i'm i'm not uh part of the navy i'm i'm a civilian but uh i have a full-time job right so this is a hobby so and you have a wife and like you've got you've got kids exactly
    20:12
    So, but yeah, I'm like, I can, I can do that for you. You know, what do you want? And what can I do? And before I knew it, I had at least one game in my, and I have since then. And to this day, I've had at least one machine in my workshop from a client. I'll just call them a client and not, not necessarily a friend or a family member or, you know, someone who's contacted me. Like right now I have a Terminator 2 and an Indiana Jones, you know, Williams Indiana Jones in my workshop. Perfect time to have an Indiana Jones in your workshop.
    20:51
    My wife and I bought an Indiana Jones for ourselves about six months ago. She was like, hey, our last name is Jones and we live in Indiana. Don't you think we should have an Indiana Jones in our lineup? I believe you are the Indiana Jones then.
    21:07
    So we bought one. so so we're up to I'm doing restoration for people now so I decide look I'm I'm I try to be humble I'm I I have never felt like I know everything I'm always learning about restorations I'm always trying to better my processes or better how I do something but I said I know quite a bit So it might be fun to create a hobby name and start a Facebook page and just kind of keep people up to date with what I'm doing. You know, I might have 50 people interested in watching that, you know. So I started a hobby business name called Pinball Reborn.
    21:57
    And I started that in 2019. so about what's that been about four years ago i i never thought it would take off but i i have just under a thousand followers now which i know is peanuts compared to some people and and their channels but i'm very humbled that a thousand people want to watch what i'm doing so so so on that um first of all you absolutely like it's you're such a humble dude um you deserve you deserve credit on this. Like the stuff you put up there, I've actually been following you for quite some time. I'm one of those, you know, just about a thousand people. The work you do is absolutely stellar. You've talked about it. There's pictures and we'll post a link to the site as part of the show notes. And the fact that you did this as like kind of a hobby thing, the fact that you're at a thousand for a niche of a niche of a niche of a market, like you're talking about people who care about collecting and restoration and the process of restoration. Like that's a, that's a serious endeavor and a niche of a niche. And so you being at a thousand people, like, look, my, this podcast, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't get, you know, hundreds of thousands of people. It's a, it's a niche part of a niche part of a, of a, of a hobby. And you should definitely, definitely be proud of the thousand you've got. It's pretty awesome. And, and I hope after, after this podcast, you'll get, you'll get a couple more. Maybe. I'm having a little bit of a downtime right now only because I haven't gotten the full deposit yet for the Indiana Jones. But as I get deposited my money, I've been ordering parts. So that one hasn't been started yet, except for parts.
    23:39
    The T2, I sent the playfield out for restoration. I was on a list to get a new playfield in Germany, but they kept pushing the date back and pushing the date back. And finally, I called the owner and said, look, for about the same price, we can probably have this one restored and it'll look every bit as good. So he says, do it. So we had it restored. It's been clear-coated, which I didn't do. The guy who did it did an excellent job.
    24:06
    But it still needs to cure for one more month. So during the time that that's curing, I don't have any other game I'm restoring. But I do have another game that we will talk about. Yep. But before we get there, Jeffrey, one thing I want to ask, and I want to be respectful that I don't want you to divulge any information you're not comfortable, but there's a lot of questioning I want to go through for the listener who might be interested in their own game restoration before we move on to the next thing. Um, do you feel that the economics of how much you charge as a hobby and what people are willing to pay for a restoration, um, and like are ultimately works out? Or do you feel that like, and I'm asking this question in two ways, like, if you had enough, enough people asking you for restoration, would you want to do it? You know, as a, you know, as as more of a thing beyond a hobby? That's question number one. And then question number two is, like, I've restored a Gottlieb Magnetron as an example. And it's not, I would like to think of it as a high, high, high end restoration. However, I did not do anything to the playfield other than one little touch up. The playfield looks used, but the rest of the machine, like I went through every part, like you said, polish them, et cetera. So let's consider it a first tier high end restoration. But I know I put five times more money into that machine than it'll ever be worth to anybody. And so the second part of the question is, for your customers, does it make sense to them from an economics perspective or is it really an emotional attachment to the machine, which is completely fine. Like, I've done that with my machines as well. Right.
    25:56
    That's a tricky question. And I think in my own personal opinion, there definitely has to be a personal attachment to the machine. for someone to invest the money it costs. I mean, I'll spend, and I haven't recorded my time for a long time, but I probably spend 200 to 250 hours on a restoration.
    26:22
    I think the T2 may actually be the most expensive machine I've ever done as far as a restoration goes. I think it's currently... Don't divulge it because you've got to concentrate with that. Okay, okay. But it's very typical to spend $5,000 on parts. Yeah. And for even higher restoration, twice that much is not uncommon. So it really – it's not an economics thing. It really is a labor of love on your side, although you deserve to be paid for your hobby work and your time and your quality. but also for the person who's getting their machine restored, it really is an emotional attachment they want. And what they get is a like new or even better than new restoration.
    27:14
    And I'm not a car person, but it's similar to buying a piece of junk car, say a 1960s Corvette, say. Yeah. You might be able to find a piece of junk, and I may be totally off on this, but you might be able to find a piece of junk for $5,000.
    27:33
    Or you may be able to find the exact same car that's been on a rotisserie and completely gone through for $100,000. This is kind of the same thing. It really has to have that emotional attachment, and it has to be a collector who really wants that in their collection, and they appreciate the craftsmanship and the time and the cost it took to get it to that point. Yeah, your analogy is spot on. I mentioned in my last episode that, and the listener may remember, that I have a 1981 DeLorean that I've been converting to an electric car. It's been five or six years that I've been working on it. And in that, I'm keeping looking stocks. I'm not actually doing a restoration on it, but I'm just doing the drive system. And the amount I've spent there, I will never, ever, ever recover for what that car is worth. All right. And then the other part of the question, Jeffrey, the first part is if you had more, you know, over time more customers coming through, would you consider doing pinball restorations, you know, pinball reborn and growing that into a full-time business if the economics worked for you? I don't see that ever happening for me. I am a tenured engineer for the Navy. I work for the DoD. And that's my career. That's where my career is taking me. And that's my retirement blanket. And I don't think pinball, at least for me, would replace that. But after retirement, that might be a different, I may give you a different answer in five years or 10 years. So maybe, maybe it's pinball reborn, parentheses, after retirement. Maybe. All right. Well, then, so with that retirement plan in mind for pinball reborn post-retirement in parentheses, and you're doing high-end restorations for yourself and others, where did you go next?
    29:44
    Let me back up just a little bit and explain a hobby I had before pinball. So before pinball, I was really into alternative movie posters, screen-printed alternative movie posters. And that group of collectors is every bit as crazy as we pinball collectors are. I got so into this hobby that I started saying to myself, there needs to be a really cool poster for this Christmas vacation.
    30:20
    Christmas is my favorite kind of poster to collect. But there weren't any. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to go out and find an artist to draw one. and screen printing is expensive so I would get a group of collectors together we would pool our money and this is all fan art unlicensed fan art we'd pull our money we would pay the artists we would pay the printer I would buy tubes and paper and shipping labels and when everything was all done I would ship them all all out we'd have this ultra limited edition cool poster that no one else had so when I when that started getting tiring I started getting into pinball so let's now let's move to the December of 2017 my wife sees an ad for a movie on television called the greatest showman it's a musical I do not like musicals this is her thing so she's like go see it with me I'm like I really don't want to so she goes and sees it comes back almost in tears saying how good it was so a week or so later she goes again go go with me no thanks it's a musical it's gonna suck she comes back again you know you've got to go with me next time okay I'll go I'll go I almost you know I'm not rude I didn't say if it will shut you up that's kind of how I was feeling so I go see the greatest showman with my wife in the in the theater probably spring of 2018 that's okay I get it I have honestly can say I have never liked a musical before but this one struck a chord this one it just was done so well and the music is so good and my wife and i were so mad that uh that that disney or pixar movie won best song and and the greatest showman didn't but um so it my wife's like oh you've gotta find an artist to make a poster for the greatest showman and there just happened to be an artist His name was Alexi Kott, and he lives in Europe somewhere.
    32:46
    And he had a really old-style feel to his artwork. And I thought, this guy is the perfect artist, but that doesn't mean he'll do one. So I contacted him and said, well, I've never seen the movie.
    33:00
    Let me watch it and see. A week goes by, he contacts me and says, I'm in. so with all i bet i've done 20 or 25 commissions with artists for different movies sometimes i have a really good idea for a a concept sometimes i don't uh with the greatest showman the only thing i knew it had to have i said this needs to look like an old-fashioned circus poster that's really my only requirement other than that go for it and he over many months came up with this amazing artwork for the greatest showman and i had it printed uh i think we printed about 50 copies so there aren't very many that exist but it's it's wonderful and one's hanging in my wife's sewing studio. She sees it every day. So as my pinball hobby is taking off and my poster hobby is starting to peter out, my wife starts saying, you need to do a re-theme. I'm like, no way. Your wife is quite the muse, I must say. I'm like, no way. I said, doing a restoration is one thing. It's a lot of work. I said, a re-theme, you can't imagine how much more work that has to be. I'm like, I just don't have time. I don't want to tackle that. And she did this for a couple of years.
    34:38
    And then last October at Chicago Pinball Expo, the fast pinball people were there. And I had just finished our high-end restoration for our Whirlwind, our second Whirlwind. Someone heard about my first one and said, is it for sale? I said, no, my wife would kill me if I sold that. I said, we'd have to have crazy money to sell that. Here comes crazy money. He offered me crazy money, and it left the house.
    35:09
    After a year or so my wife like I want another Whirlwind And so I well I have to top that restoration somehow So I did Radcals again which I love But now Mirko is making mirrored Radcals. And since I put chrome on that machine, chrome and mirroring is so perfect. So I feel like I went up to my last one. But I just finished the whirlwind restoration. And we go to Mirko. And we're enjoying ourselves. we find ourselves at the Fast Pinball booth, and my wife's eyes are huge. And she's listening, and she's talking, and she's playing some of the games that are running on the system. And she's like, let's do it. Let's do it. I said, we know nothing about coding. I said, I have no doubt I can make a machine look beautiful.
    36:03
    I said, but I don't want a machine that looks beautiful, and then you can't play it, or it sucks. I mean, I don't know how to code. And Jeffrey, let me interject here.
    36:15
    You're talking about the FAST booth at Expo. I was there as well. You're talking about Aaron Davis and Company's booth. And the way that they've got it is they've got folks there to talk about FAST pinball, but they've got a bunch of machines. Some are production machines. Some are in concept machines. They had a fathom revisited. They have all kinds of different machines showing off the capability of what FAST can do. and so there's no surprise to me at all that if you're sitting there talking and she's looking around she's like oh my god there's a there's an opportunity here so so she's getting really excited and i said if we're going to do a re-theme i want to do at least a system 11 because i heard that uh pin sound was going to be coming out with a board for system 11 not like okay that's all the sound issue we can put our own sounds in there i said we can keep the same rules we can keep the same scoring as a system 11. there's just one thing we have to overcome and that is the words that appear on the on the on the displays like for instance whirlwind it'll say uh head for the seller or something. So I thought, well, I can find someone to do that. I was wrong.
    37:36
    I talked to some board experts, and they were saying they've looked into it, and that coding is so deep inside those machines that basically you can't change it.
    37:48
    I'm like, well, darn. I don't really want to do a retheme of an early 80s machine that doesn't have words. In my opinion, that's not my cup of tea.
    38:01
    And I had just finished this whirlwind restoration. And I said, okay, let's do a re-theme. What machine are we going to do?
    38:14
    And my wife's like, well, which one do you think we should do? I'm like, you're going to not be happy with what I had to say, but I know I just finished the whirlwind.
    38:26
    And that three wheel spinner for Whirlwind is so unique to Whirlwind. But the greatest showman is a circus theme. And if those three rings were the three ring circus, you couldn't ask for a better match. Yeah. And again, her eyes got huge.
    38:46
    So we said, OK, all right. Now, if we do Whirlwind, we're going to have to figure the coding out. and and her promise to me and she is gonna follow through with this and she's done some work her words were i will figure the coding out wow i will handle that part i'm like okay let's do it and and and my my stepson her her son by by by trade he's a coder now we have not asked for his help. But I have a feeling that once we get to that point, we may be asking for some help. Oh my God. So I can't, that's amazing that not only did she push you to do this and support you with how much you excel at what you do, but then she said she would do the coding, which is the part that would get you over the hump to actually do it. That's amazing. I learned a long time ago that you don't challenge my wife. A little side story. I used to scuba dive when I first met her. And I was like, you need to do this with me. She goes, I don't like having my face in the water.
    39:57
    Well, I don't like roller coasters, but she loves roller coasters. And she's like, you need to do this with me.
    40:05
    I got to the point where I said, okay, all right. I know how to shut her up. the day you learn how to scuba dive is the day I will ride roller coasters.
    40:14
    That week she signed up for scuba lessons and she ended up getting licensed and we ended up diving together. And I, and I ended up riding roller coasters, not a whole lot, but I did, I did do it.
    40:27
    And you got a common theme pinball. So, you know, so, so you, so you go, you go the route of greatest showman. She's, she's planning on doing coding. Maybe your, your stepson is going to, is going to help, but you haven't asked him yet. And so, and you're looking at this whirlwind, which you just finished restoring for the second time, a whirlwind. What happens next?
    40:50
    So we decide whirlwinds it. So I said, okay, we need to find the perfect whirlwind. Not the one you just restored. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That one, I was not gonna scrub off artwork on a brand new high-end restored whirlwind. So we need to find the perfect machine, you know the a machine that's a piece of junk is the ideal machine but it's whirlwind it's a popular machine and um that's really difficult to find and um so i ended up finding on pin side i ended up finding a machine that was a decent price it wasn't a steel or anything but it was it was a decent price so i made deal with the guy gave him a 200 deposit and the very next day someone local contacted me and said are you still looking for a whirlwind i'm thinking i just gave this guy money for a deposit i'm thinking i can't i can't be that guy right i've got a whirlwind and this is a guy that used to be in a hobby heavy and he ended up having family and and kids and and he got out of the hobby i've got a whirlwind he says it's been in my storage unit for 15 years oh my god i was gonna restore it i sent the playfield off to be restored uh it was a well-known name i don't remember the person's name today but i've got the playfield back it's been clear-coded it's sitting you know been curing hardening for 15 years it's never never had a ball on it and uh he gives me a price that is say 1500 or so less than this other machine oh my god and but the machine is in boxes. It hasn't been restored. I've restored two whirlwinds. I know how to put a whirlwind back together. I contact the guy and say, look, the first deal I found, I said, I found a local machine. I don't want to be that guy. I will follow through with my deal if you want me to um if you say it's okay i want you to keep my deposit
    43:00
    i understand and he kept the deposit and i bought the one the one local it really was the perfect machine um i was able to sell the play field to go towards the cost because i didn't need right i didn't need that that play field and um
    43:22
    so i started diving in uh well first of all we're not made of money so i'm like which machine in our lineup are we going to sell to fund this and we we both agreed it was jurassic park by by stern So we sold our Jurassic Park to fund this entire project. Ha ha ha. It funded part of it. Doing a re-theme is quite expensive. There's quite a bit to it. A lot more to it, like I said, than a restoration. With a restoration, you clean and repair the wiring harness and reuse it. With one of these, you buy all new wire and make your own wiring harness. your own wiring harness and connectors and everything. So I contact Alexi Cot who did the art.
    44:16
    So now I'm looking for an artist. I'm not an artist. I'm creative and I've done lots of art directing with these private commissions I've run. And I do have good ideas and I have bad ideas, but I work well with artists. So I'm looking for an artist. So I contacted Alexi Cot who did this amazing poster for me. I said, hey, do you care if I use the artwork on this machine? As long as you're not going to mass produce it and sell it, that's fine. Are you interested in making more artwork for it? No. Interesting. Nope, I'm too busy, can't do it, fine. So I'm looking for art. And I contact some of the artists I've worked with. All of them say, that doesn't sound like it's for me.
    45:07
    So now I'm getting frustrated. I'm getting a little bit desperate. I go on Fiverr.com, and I start poking around. And I find some people who say they're interested.
    45:20
    And I find one who says she's very interested. And I send her the artwork that Alexi had made. And then it goes nowhere. Well, a buddy of mine who's been in the pinball mod business, somehow, I'm not sure exactly how it happened, he contacted me and said, hey, you ought to be using this other artist that I've used. His name's Jay French. I'm like I've never heard of Jay French I don't know Jay French he goes yeah contact him and see if he's interested I go okay but first I went to his website I wanted to check out his artwork because I've worked with enough artists I know that not all artists have the right style that you're looking for and I was kind of impressed his artwork was great and contacted him and he goes this sounds like a lot of fun. So I start giving him concepts and ideas and things. And the first thing we work on is the cabinet artwork for the greatest showman. And he incorporates Alexei's artwork into the cabinet and then also adds his own flair too. And I would never bad mouth anyone who ever does a retheme. I know how much work it is, but I also know how difficult the artwork is and having the right artist. And in my opinion, some people don't find the right artist. I feel like, and maybe I'm biased, but I feel like I found the right artist. I got very lucky, and Jay's been knocking it out of the ballpark. So I did the cabinet first because the cabinet artwork was ready first. and um fixed the cabinet and painted it and put the the decals on and and uh so
    47:24
    jay and i've been working on um plastic artwork translate artwork um drop target artwork everything you know speaker panel artwork everything else that's that's that's needed he recently finished all the artwork up for the greatest showman for things that need to be manufactured Now, my wife has looked a little bit into the coding and she has gotten far enough along that she's ready to start assigning like switch numbers and coil numbers.
    48:00
    But and I gave her a list of those numbers. Well, not ever have done this before. I realized that the random order I gave her was not necessarily the right order. So I told her to stop. I said, let me get everything wired up and I can tell you exactly where everything's wired to. So she's put that on hold for now. I currently am working with a guy in Brazil who makes pinball plastics and translates and all that stuff. And he just emailed me yesterday and said everything's been manufactured. He's sent me pictures. Oh, my God. And they're on their way. And I said, cool. How long does it take to get here from Brazil? Two to four weeks.
    48:47
    So, Jeffrey, before we go any further, I want to roll back a little bit on a couple of things. So you got the Whirlwind from the Sky Local. You sell the play field. and then you liked aspects of the Whirlwind playfield for the Greatest Showman theme so what did you do so first question is what did you do to populate or create the playfield that you are using or are going to be using? What's your plan there? So I have an original playfield that was trashed for Whirlwind from one of my previous restorations So I decided to sand it off and clear coat it myself. And that's acting as my test play field. So I'm mounting everything to that. I mean, called a whitewood. That's what there's no artwork on it. So you have a clear-coated white wood, which is awesome. All right. So the next question is you had mentioned that you're not using an existing wire harness. You're building your own wiring.
    50:00
    Help me and the listener understand why you're not able to use the Whirlwind wire harness and need to go create your own.
    50:10
    Well, everything is wired differently. the fast boards, and again, I'm still learning on this. So you are, you are all those, those are my next question. You are, you are using the fast boards. We did buy the fast board system and they seem to be similar to a stern, a stern setup where they are nodes and they communicate through, through a cat, a cat five. Yep. And, um, so all the switches and, and, um, and coils of a, of a harness from a, from a whirlwind, they all go to inside the back box. Well, most of the wires, well, in fact, all of the wires, sorry, the switches and coils go to node boards that are mounted under the play field. So the wiring is totally different. And also Fast has recommendations on what colors to use for certain things. Now, one thing they recommend, which I understand this makes it a little more difficult, but I understand it switches. They want you to use orange wire with the ground being purple. So every switch gets an orange wire, not orange with blue and orange with yellow and orange, you know, all orange. Well, now you have to really track down how you've wired these and where to, and where they go. Cause they're all the same color wire, but they do, but they, they recommend that so that if, or when you have problems in the future, you can send a picture. And if you've followed their, their color code, they know exactly how you've wired it and can easily find the error.
    51:43
    Of course, I'm going to make no errors, right? Because we never make mistakes. No, no. Okay, so that explains the wire harness point, and that explains the play field. Awesome. All right, and so keep going with your story. So the only thing I'm using from the original Whirlwind is I used the cabinet. I used some of the armor. As far as the playfield goes, it's basically all the top side and bottom side metal. the mechs uh the metal uh ball guides uh the wire form ramps um things that are specific to whirlwind if if someone and i still have all the parts for the whirlwind i'm looking for a buyer haven't found the right one yet but i don't i don't really want to split everything up because if somebody really wanted to put together a whirlwind if they found a populated play field they would have everything they need except they would need a cabinet Understood So that brings one half of the mechs What about custom mechs for the Greyish Showman? What are you thinking there? What's the process you're using to get those?
    53:11
    So the only changes I've made to geometry or mechs, is I have added an auto shooter and I changed the system 11 ball trough to a WPC 6 ball trough. And I had to cut out the wood some. And again, this test play field has been great for this because I needed to make sure the geometry was going to work. And it seems like it's working great. So I have a 6 ball trough in a system 11 play field and an auto shooter, which wasn't there. And the only other difference I can think of right now is the plastic that is near the shooter lane.
    53:55
    I extended that to go over the shooter lane because I'm going to be putting an elephant there. As it should be. Yes.
    54:08
    So a couple of things. I've gone through the pictures you posted on Strictly Customs as well as Pinball Report. and um a couple things absolutely stand out during your build number one the level of like the pick and the pictures actually i don't think they do you justice but they at least start to broach doing you justice the way that you do wiring the way that you do polishing of parts the way that like the way things present themselves a pride in craftsmanship is you know that your caliber of your pride and craftsmanship is absolutely there and you're wiring your electrical layout you like you look at it and you go, wow, that's, that's neat and not meet like the cool way. Like, I mean, it is for those of us who enjoy that type of thing, but what I, by neat, I mean, it is, it is elegantly laid out. You've, you've given this thought, you've given it care. Every wire is in the right place. It's zip tied at the right place for this to be, you know, and I can only imagine what your, what your, what, what your restorations look like for yourself and for your customers. So, so I want to, I want to give you kudos on that. And I want to, you know, The listeners should definitely check that out. I noticed also that you had, and actually the way that I first connected with you, is you have a power strip that's inside the machine.
    55:30
    Why don't you talk a little bit about what else you're doing to the machine beyond what was there as part of Whirlwind or as part of the fast boards that you're putting in? So I did the power and the wire management for power first, as far as the cabinet goes, as far as populating the cabinet.
    55:54
    And a lot of the things you plug in, like your monitor, I have lighted speakers. I have an amplifier for the speakers.
    56:10
    There are other things, too. But anyway, a lot of these things come with their own transformers, you know, those big boxes on the end of the cord. And I think, OK, so I'm trying to think this through. And I'm like, I don't I don't really want to hack up all these wires and then tap into, say, the 12 volt power supply multiple times to to get these things power. I said, well, I'll just plug it all in. And my cabinet bottom was so warped when it sat on my garage floor, it would rock. So it had to get a brand new bottom. And a buddy of mine who's a woodworker helped me put a brand new bottom in it.
    56:59
    And when we did that, I did not cut out the hole for the power switch. And I decided I'm not going to do that because this is going to be home use. I really hope to take it to shows when it's done, but it's going to be home use. I can open it up and turn the power on on the inside if I decide to. But I found a power strip on Amazon. I believe it's six plugins, and every plugin has its own switch for that particular plug.
    57:35
    And then there's a main power switch that turns them all off and on. I thought, wow, this is a great solution.
    57:41
    And not only is this a great solution, but if I need to turn off the 48-volt power supply by itself, this allows me to do that. Exactly. I don't have to unscrew anything or take any wires off or add any quick disconnects in between.
    57:59
    And then I did this in reading on the power strip, and it has a 15-amp breaker. I'm like, oh, cool. It has its own breaker. like wait a minute these games recommend eight amp so i put in an inline eight amp fuse before the power strip so at least it's got the proper fuse for right what the system needs so and then
    58:25
    figuring out how to mount this thing was a bit of a challenge um it's got the i'm not sure what it's called it's got got the two uh slots on on the back of it that you put and like those always are loose and they just so i from another project i had a a piece of uh angle aluminum that was i think three by three inch it was big stuff and i looked at it but that might work so i i started doing some measurements and things and what i did was i took two-part epoxy and i glued the entire power strips to a piece of that angle aluminum and then drilled holes in the angle aluminum to mount it to the cabinet and it is sturdier it's not going anywhere it's perfect i'm really really happy with this with that solution it was not what fast recommended i've never seen anyone else do it
    59:19
    but i really hope the future proves me successful in that i um years ago uh i built a the arcade machine, main machine. And I have a true CRT monitor in there. It was like one of the goal, one of the things I really wanted was I wanted a CRT, not an LCD or a flat panel.
    59:44
    It is a true CRT, almost pure flat panel. And in order to make the whole thing work, I have a Bluetooth connection to it from the PC. And when the main power switch is kicked over, It sends a Bluetooth signal to the power cord, shuts down all of the external equipment. It's similar to what you have, although yours is individually controlled for power and will give a two minute delay before it actually shuts power completely off, giving the CRT time to actually discharge the capacitors before it comes down. So I totally get it. Like you don't always go with the standard way of doing it, but, you know, it does it does meet the need for for the project. um you know we we talk about going under the play field on this podcast and we've we've been talking about that for you know for for a good good portion of the show but actually i want to talk about going behind the back box for a second because you did something what what what really caught my eye and the attention of a number of other people is you did something really ingenious and simple when you look at it but i don't think anybody's ever done it before at least i'm not not aware so i don't mean to to to negate others others work on you have a monitor in your back box Why don't you talk about what that monitor is for and how you made it so that you could access your board set and your controls that are behind that monitor within Greatest Showman?
    61:11
    I have to give all kudos to Jersey Jack Pinball for this. I wanted to do whatever I could to make the Greatest Showman not look like a whirlwind. And to back up a little bit, I had Mirko make me a custom play field. and i i'm using i'm using color changing leds for all of all the control lights so they were able to make me a play field for whirlwind uh with all clear inserts
    61:42
    whirlwind normally has red some are red and some are green some are orange and and also the the compass inserts right there near the below the the uh spinners and above the flippers those compass inserts are really really unique to put to whirlwind and i really didn't want them there
    62:02
    so he let them out which worked out great that's awesome so um but i knew i wanted i knew i wanted to be different from a whirlwind so i wanted an lcd screen and i was like i don't know first i was thinking how do you mount i went on amazon looking for different kind of mounts and then I I knew I didn't have much room between the back of the back box and where the glass goes and I just happened to find one that's that pulls out and swivels similar to what a Jersey Jack does and um so far I think it's going to work well I had to tighten everything down really tight so that it doesn't move but so far I think it's going to work well. Yeah. And then also it allows me, it allows me to, I have all the power supplies and boards and things are behind the monitor because there's like a two or three inches back there. So, so, and it just, you need to get back there. You just swivel it out. Just like a TV mounted on the wall. Super simple solution to, to a hard problem. So, so at this point, Jeffrey, what, what do you see us next? You, you talked about going to shows. Any chance you'll be at Pinball Expo? Yes, there's a chance. There's no chance this October. I even had Robert Burke contact me a few weeks ago saying, you're going to bring that to Chicago, aren't you? I'm like, absolutely, someday. But my wife and I have a goal to have the test play field flipping and maybe being able to play the world's most boring pinball. Every target's worth a hundred points. And when the ball drains, it goes to the next ball. Most boring, no rules, just that's all it does. No sound, no anything. That's our goal.
    63:58
    And, and when, when is that goal for? By the end of the summer. Okay. So, so there is a, is there any chance that it could be at expo with the, the very basic gameplay that you were talking about? Not this October, no. Not this October, okay. No, it just, I still have wiring to do.
    64:20
    It has a long way to go. Totally fair. Well, look, I will be at Expo. You should, you know, I definitely hope you're at Expo, regardless of whether the machine is there. We're going to be doing a lot for Expo, for Customs and Homebrews. And we've already started posting on strictly custom pinballs to get community support and get folks involved in the planning. And so even if you're not able to bring a great showman or aren't interested in bringing a great showman until it's more ready, having you there be part of the community, we'd love to have you there. So your wife's going to be doing coding. You're going to continue doing wiring. what do you have a target show that will be the first place that you want to bring it or maybe it's expo 2024 then it would probably be expo 2024 would be our our goal but we again we we're not coders so we really don't know what we've gotten ourselves into well the the nice thing about code is that once your your mechanicals are done you can keep making updates to it you keep refining it you get folks to play it you get them to try it they tell you what they like that they didn't like and you can make updates to it and then the nice thing about code is it only has to be as complex as you want it like if this is a you know if this is a show piece for you if the greatest showman is a showpiece and a a a gravity well of the the craftsmanship and and your your work it doesn't have to be the most you know the the most complicated code in the world as long as you and your wife were having fun playing it right so um funny too because uh when we first started this i was talking with my wife i said okay we need to and i'm starting to work with the jay french the artist i said okay we need to decide on some of the rules for for the game she's like we don't need to do that that's way down the line what are you talking about i'm like he's working on the artwork i said if a light comes on for extra or light comes on for for anything and it needs to say something there so we have to at least come up with some of the rules because the play field needs to indicate that because oh yeah i kind of get what you're saying now i uh talk to a person who's well known but i'm not going to say say who they are because i didn't tell that that i would be bringing bring it up um in the in the custom community um and they do custom rethemes, restorations. And one of the things they said is that it's not just, it's exactly what you just said. It's not just about putting the art onto the machine, but really integrating the art with the theme, with the mechanics, with the game rules. Like there's a whole cycle there and they're all intertwined. And so you're spot on in what you said. We have another minute left and as parting words, is there anything you would say to somebody who wants to go down this journey, who has never done a pinball restoration or done a custom, any advice, words of wisdom or encouragement you would give? Just do your homework. Based on my own experience, you know, I worked my way up to it. I went from cleaning a game to shopping a game to restoring a game to doing this and that knowledge has really benefited me. I don't understand everything yet but there's a lot I do understand and having that background it has been huge. So just be prepared that it's going to be more expensive and more time consuming than you imagine it's going to be. And Jeffrey based on your story it's a journey as well. I'm having fun. I'm really having fun. Well, listen, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for sharing your your amazing story and your amazing journey. And tell your wife like she's awesome. And I hope to have both you and her on the show as you make further progress. Sounds great. Thanks, Dan. Cheers. Thanks for joining the podcast. Thanks for listening. And I can't wait to see what you make.
    68:43
    Thank you.