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Pinball Magazine & Pinball News May 2021 recap PINcast

Pinball News & Pinball Magazine Pincast·podcast_episode·2h 38m·analyzed·Jun 3, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

American Pinball acquired by Ametron, plans two games/year expansion with operator focus and new product tiers.

Summary

Pinball News and Pinball Magazine recap May 2021 developments, featuring an extensive interview with American Pinball leadership (Mukesh Vasani, Nirmal Vasani, David Fix) discussing Ametron's complete acquisition of American Pinball, company history, funding security, manufacturing strategy, and aggressive expansion plans targeting 5,000-6,000 units annually and two games per year production. The conversation covers team building with industry veterans (Dennis Nordman, Jack Hager, Zofia Ryan), operator-focused distribution strategy via Betson, and upcoming product tiering (Deluxe/Classic models).

Key Claims

  • American Pinball is now wholly owned by Ametron Corporation, changing from sister company status

    high confidence · Direct statement from Mukesh Vasani, CEO of Ametron, during formal interview

  • American Pinball aims for 5,000-6,000 unit market share annually, targeting half the market against current 10,000-12,000 annual industry production

    high confidence · Mukesh Vasani explicitly states goal during planning discussion

  • American Pinball intends to release two games per year going forward, up from historical one game per 18-24 months

    high confidence · David Fix confirms roadmap: fall title in development, spring 2022 title locked, fall 2022 title in works

  • American Pinball has secured distribution through Betson, one of the largest US arcade operator distributors

    high confidence · David Fix: 'We got, we're now with Betson in their Betson catalog. We are, we have games out on test with Betson.'

  • Dhawal Vasani (previous oversight) has 'chosen to pursue his own path,' prompting Ametron's decision to take complete control

    medium confidence · Mukesh Vasani explanation: 'Dhawal Vasani, you know, he choose to pursue, you know, his own path. So that's where AIMTRAN came in picture and took 100% control'

  • Upcoming games will feature Deluxe (homeowner/collector) and Classic (operator) model tiers

    high confidence · David Fix: 'starting with the next game which I can't tell you what it is yet but starting with the next game there's going to be two models there will be a deluxe and there will be a classic'

  • American Pinball uses off-the-shelf electronics and mechanical parts to accelerate market entry and assure customer trust in company longevity

    high confidence · David Fix explains strategy: 'if certain critical components could be bought off the shelf, then the product would be secure, it would be serviceable'

  • Ametron owns a contract manufacturing electronics business with 7+ subsidiary companies and approximately $100 million annual revenue

Notable Quotes

  • “America is the country that gave me the opportunity to build Ametron. And so this is as an homage to that.”

    Mukesh Vasani (via Jonathan Yousson recounting previous conversation) @ ~mid-interview — Explains naming philosophy for American Pinball vs other Ametron subsidiaries; demonstrates founder's gratitude and values

  • “We are not making for profit. You know, this is something my wish to help community. If we are really only looking for money, you would have run, you know, upgrade the price twice.”

    Mukesh Vasani @ ~mid-interview — Core philosophy statement; clarifies non-profit-primary motivation and family-value focus despite for-profit structure

  • “When I show it to you, it's going to be ready. And that's the title that we're working on right now. Long gone are the days of let me show you a video and do some hand-waving.”

    David Fix @ ~mid-interview — Signals shift in American Pinball announcement strategy; implies criticism of industry practice of pre-announcing games without immediate availability

  • “The only way we can grow the pinball community is introducing people to new games... We want to have that social communication... put games in locations. That is the key goal for American Pinball.”

    David Fix @ ~later-interview — Core strategic positioning: operator/location placement prioritized over home collector sales; emphasizes community growth mission

  • “75% of any arcades in the world have an ice product in there... That company produced somewhere about 500 games a week.”

    David Fix @ ~mid-interview — Brings ICE industry experience scale into context; demonstrates David Fix's background in high-volume manufacturing operations

  • “Why reinvent the wheel? There was a strong product out there, so we partnered up with that... The best way to sell machines is get them out the door.”

    David Fix @ ~mid-interview — Justifies off-the-shelf electronics strategy; prioritizes speed to market over custom development

  • “You can't build a team unless you have a mechanical engineer. You can't build a game unless you have a game designer. You can't have art unless you have an art director.”

Entities

American Pinball Inc.companyAmetron CorporationcompanyMukesh VasanipersonNirmal VasanipersonDavid FixpersonDennis NordmanpersonDhawal Vasaniperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball acknowledges previous supply chain disruptions ('supply chain issues') requiring delayed announcements until product availability guaranteed, signaling manufacturing constraints

    medium · David Fix: 'we have supply chain issues, which a lot of people have had. But I'm not going to announce something unless I'm ready to share it with the world'

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball acquisition by Ametron consolidates ownership and provides manufacturing/financial backing; signals increased stability and growth capacity

    high · Mukesh Vasani confirms 100% ownership consolidation; describes Ametron as $100M+ revenue company with contract manufacturing expertise; explicitly states goal to secure American Pinball's future with resources and technical knowledge

  • ?

    community_signal: American Pinball leadership explicitly prioritizes family-friendly gameplay and community growth over pure profit maximization; describes mission-driven values

    high · Mukesh Vasani: 'We are not making for profit... this is something my wish to help community... our still goal is to build the family value'; David Fix on Hot Wheels: 'put the cell phone down and pick up the pinball machine'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: American Pinball explicitly targeting half market share (5,000-6,000 units annually vs industry 10,000-12,000); positions quality and pricing as competitive advantages

    high · Mukesh Vasani: 'our dream was... we have a lot of far better product knowledge or supply chain knowledge... our goal is to get 5,000 to 6,000 market share every year'; David Fix: 'feature-rich game that is not breaking the bank'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.476

0:00
Interview with American Pinball Stern launches the Mandalorian Fathom revisited Mermaid Editions All sold!
0:18
Hi and welcome to the Pinball News and Pinball Magazine Pincast, the pinball industry news of the past month This comes by me, my name is Jonathan Yousson, I'm the editor of Pinball Magazine and I'm joined here with... I'm Martin Leib and I'm the editor of Pinball News and we are looking back at all the events in the pinball world that took place in May 2021. Well, not so fast Martin. How can you say it's only May 2021 if we're also going to be looking ahead with American Pinball? Well, okay, we're looking at events in May, but also the wider picture as well, looking at what's going to be coming up in June, and beyond that as well, and some of our other news items. Right. Yeah, but as far as anyone's concerned, this is the May 2021 pincast. Right, and what an exciting month it has been. Yeah, we always say that and funny enough it always seems to be true even though it might seem quite quiet this month really wasn't there was a new game launch for a start which we will come to a little bit later but also we're looking forward to what's going to be happening this month in June with the team from American Pinball but also looking back at how the company started where they are now and exciting news about the change of ownership, I suppose, from being a kind of sister company of the Aintron Corporation to being a wholly owned subsidiary. Right. And what that means for American Pimple. So we recorded an interview with David Fix,
2:09
Mukesh Vasani and Nirmal Vasani, and before we're getting into that I do recall it's not made that very clear that American Pimple was under was being supervised by Naval Tassani and he has moved on and with that change apparently the way I understood it Ametron, the parent company, felt the need to change things up a little bit in terms of it being a sister company and what have you. But that's all being discussed in the interview. Yeah, it's quite a lengthy interview. We cover a lot of ground in that, looking at, as I said, the company's founding, that's Ametron and American Pimple, the reason for it. And we also are going to go into some depth about how the company is funded, what they are planning for the future, and, well, really, whether they are now on a firm financial footing, which is important for any new startup company. Right. And, well, probably better to let Mukesh, Nomal, and David tell the story in their own words rather than me try and summarize it. And so we'll head over to our interview with the three of them and the team at American Pimble. So we're joined by the top team from American Pimble and Aintron. Joining us now are Mikesh Vasani, who's the founder and CEO of the Aintron Group of Companies, Nirmal Vasani, who's the Senior Director of NPI at Aintron, and our good friend David Fix, who is Director of Operations and Marketing at American Pinball. Welcome, guys.

high confidence · Mukesh Vasani: 'our business is closer to $100 million' and describes AIMTRAN Corporation, AIMTRAN Technology, ITAR facility divisions

David Fix @ ~later-interview — Explains hiring philosophy; emphasizes structural foundation-building with industry veterans mentoring junior staff

Jonathan Yousson
person
Martin Leibperson
Jack Hagerperson
Zofia Ryanperson
Josh Kuglerperson
Joeperson
Ducky Vidyaperson
Betsoncompany
Houdinigame
Oktoberfestgame
Hot Wheelsgame
Flying Dutchmangame
ICE (Innovation Concepts Electronics)company

design_philosophy: American Pinball emphasizes design for specific venue types (player's games for core players, barcade games for bars, FEC games for family centers) with distinct aesthetic and mechanical approaches

medium · David Fix: 'Houdini is kind of a player's game... Oktoberfest is like the barcade, you know?... Hot Wheels is kind of designed to be that great game for family entertainment centers'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: American Pinball deliberately adopts off-the-shelf electronics and proven mechanical components rather than developing proprietary systems, citing speed-to-market and customer trust as rationales

    high · David Fix: 'There was a strong product out there, so we partnered up with that... The best way to sell machines is get them out the door'; 'if certain critical components could be bought off the shelf, then the product would be secure, it would be serviceable'

  • $

    market_signal: American Pinball pivoting strategy toward operator distribution and location placement rather than home collector sales; emphasizes operator pool as larger market opportunity

    high · David Fix: 'The only way we can grow the pinball community is introducing people to new games... put games in locations. That is the key goal for American Pinball'; secured Betson distribution; references conversations with Dave & Buster's and Namco closures

  • ?

    personnel_signal: American Pinball hiring significant industry talent: Dennis Nordman (lead designer), Jack Hager (art director), Zofia Ryan (mechanical engineer); senior team now includes veterans who can mentor junior staff

    high · David Fix describes team pillars: 'Dennis Nordman as lead senior game designer... Zofia as senior mechanical engineer... Jack as the art director' with purpose to 'help guide a young team'

  • $

    market_signal: American Pinball maintains favorable pricing despite supply chain pressures; leadership resists price increases to preserve community access and operator profitability

    medium · Mukesh Vasani: 'we used to have raised the price, you know, past couple months, but we never raised the price because our still goal is to build the family value'; David Fix emphasizes 'price structure that is not going to break the bank'

  • ?

    product_strategy: American Pinball introducing Deluxe and Classic product tiers for upcoming releases; Deluxe targets homeowners/collectors, Classic targets operators, though both available to all buyers

    high · David Fix: 'starting with the next game... there's going to be two models there will be a deluxe and there will be a classic the deluxe is more going to be designed just for the homeowners and the collectors but the classic is going to be designed more for the operators'

  • ?

    product_strategy: American Pinball aggressively expanding release cadence from 1 game per 18-24 months to 2 games per year, with titles locked for fall 2021, spring 2022, and fall 2022

    high · David Fix: 'we have a title that will be released very shortly,' 'the next game which then that's already kind of locked in and done by Dennis,' 'Dennis is already working on the next game after that for the spring of 2022,' 'one already kind of in the works for fall of 2022'

    • 4:11
    Hello. Thanks for having us here, Martin and Jonathan. Welcome on my behalf as well, yes. It's a pleasure, and I think I haven't seen or heard from Nirmal in quite a while, so a lot's happened in that time, including him going to India and getting married, so congratulations on that, Nirmal. I would love to. A couple of changes, both personally and professionally. A lot of stuff that happened over the past few years. You already got divorced?
    4:43
    In the Indian system, it doesn't work that way. Okay. It's a lifetime. Concrete marriage. Well, now you're back and Senior Director of New Product Introductions, NPI, at Aintron. And presumably those new products include Ametron and American Pimple. Is that right? Absolutely, yes. All new products that we develop across all the group of companies. So Ametron has six or seven different companies, depending on how you classify some of them, within our corporate umbrella. And so all the new products that we design and develop across any one of those companies goes through me and my team. Wow, that must keep you busy. Oh yes it does Okay well I guess the big news recently was that American Pinball is now wholly owned by Aintron whereas previously I guess it was kind of a sister company and now Aintron owns it completely now although we a couple of years back that we well People News did an article about Aintron as part of our visit to American Pimple. We did a tour of the factory and saw all the amazing work they're doing there. But perhaps Rakesh could give us a sort of background history of who Aimtron is or what the company is, how it began, and what you're up to with the company now.
    6:12
    All right. Thank you, Martin and Johnson. Thank you, Jonathan, Martin, having me on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. Absolutely. My pleasure. Regarding, you know, AIMTRAN and regarding my journey, I think let me take you back a little bit about my journey so you understand how and where I am and where AIMTRAN is today. I was born and brought up in a very small town, maybe around 450 people. My parents, the farmer, never went to school. You know, very hardship. you know, my village has only three level, three grade schools and then after third grade, fourth grade, we need to walk to the next village because, you know, there is no bus service to one village to another village. There is no bus service. Pardon me for interrupting, but this is in India, right?
    7:09
    This is, yes, this is in India, you know, and when I came, actually, fast forward journey, actually a lot of hardship. When I was in high school, 10-11 kilometers one way, just the biking one way to get to high school. Didn't have that much money to afford a fancy vehicle.
    7:33
    So after hardship, I became an engineering graduate and then I started my own business. I was dreaming to do business and I was dreaming to go out and, you know, do good for society, especially for education, because my parents never went to school and I was the engineer from my family, immediate family. So I decided to, you know, get out of the country, but didn't get a chance. So I was doing a business over there. In 1995, fast forward, I migrated to U.S. and again, I went to a device school here because I couldn't, you know, used to with all the customs here without any knowledge, local knowledge and local education here. So, moving fast forward, we started while in a device school, I started a business in a parallel and grew that company, first company to $30 million and partner retired and, you know, we came back to again reinvent the wheel. So, we started again in 2009, a company called Ametron with high aim in electronic market to, you know, make something out of this. Right.
    9:01
    And you see from there, last 10 years, as normal stage in startup, you know, we have about seven branches. The first branch is called Main AIMTRAN Corporation, where we do all fancy PC boards for all kind of industries, including gaming and industrials and casinos and, you know, you name it. We have a separate unit, though, for government. We are direct, you know, supplier of U.S. and Navy, so Naval Force. So we have an AIMTRAN system. It's called ITAR facility. In parallel, we also started an entrant technology, so that's where Nirmal and his team come in picture and run the whole business. And then we have another branch, and there are so many things, but right now, today our focus is pinball. So last, not the least, I was looking for some kind of a box build that we get a chance to get into American Pinball. One last thing,
    10:12
    AIMTRON Foundation is my dream and we have a non-profit AIMTRON Foundation activity also for education. That's about my journey.
    10:24
    Right, amazing. So, why did AIMTRON take, or actually, give us a sort of, an overview of how American Pinball started as a sister company or a spin-off of Aimtron and why Aimtron has now taken complete ownership of the American pinball? Oh my god, it's a tough journey. It started with, you know, actually as I said,
    10:53
    there is two things connect here. Number one is, you know, Aimtron has a quality product. AIMTRAN is believing in, like, you know, a very strong quality work. And that's what we are in contract manufacturing. So we are looking the same way as some kind of box world. And eventually American Pinball, you know, is kind of a family-owned company. But then, you know, Dhawal Vasani, you know, he choose to pursue, you know, his own path. So that's where AIMTRAN came in picture and took 100% control, you know, on that American pinball. The second reason was why American pinball is, you know, we, our business is closer to $100 million, you know, but we still feel that family value attached to AIMTRAN Foundation. and when I look at, when I go to parties, when I look at somewhere, even my own kids, you know, they just, when they're young, you know, they just start just in social medias, you know, so that's where if whole family can play together, whole family can, you know, spend time together, so you know, we came more interested in American pinball and we choose that take complete ownership and take it to the next level. Right. And if I could just interject here, the name, I remember Mukesh talking to me about this. I was considerably younger then, which is funny to say because a lot of people in this room would consider me to be young now. But I was considerably younger then. And one of the things that he told me sort of struck out to me where I asked him, why American pinball? Where did that name come from? And he said that because America is the country that gave me the opportunity to build Ametron. And so this is as an homage to that. And so I always thought it was interesting to see that while every other company under the Ametron umbrella has Ametron named as a part of it, He specifically dedicated American Pinball as an homage to the country that gave him the opportunity to build it, which I always thought was really neat and cool. It's certainly worthwhile to notice that. I had no idea, and I think it's a very nice gesture. If I may interject immediately with one of the previous comments about taking American symbol to the next level, I'm very curious what the next level will be. So when we started this journey and we look at a few competitors and you know when we look at the competitor we thought we have a lot of far better you know product knowledge or supply chain knowledge, you know, so we can control even better way to, you know, quality also. So that's why at least we can take half the share, half the market share. So our dream was when we hired David Fix, you know, to fix some of the problem. Thank you to Mr. Fix.
    14:21
    You're welcome. So, you know, when we hired David Fix, initial team was kind of a, you know, learning team. Thanks to initial team also. they did good, at least they brought us up wherever we are right now. But now new team, we change each and every corner and build a new team. And that new team with the, I think David will take you a little bit more in depth, but with the, you know, goal to have half the market share. So on an average, 10,000 to 12,000 pins every year. Our goal is to get 5,000 to 6,000 market share every year. and how, and, you know, time will tell and David will tell. Yep. I will go into more detail for that, too. It's not a problem. Absolutely. Okay. Now, obviously, if you want to grow in that kind of way, you're going to need to invest in manufacturing and in stock and in staff. One thing that always bogs down companies, well, most companies, there's one obvious exception in this at the moment that's starting up, is funding for the future. And any startup company kind of would have a business plan, would have a certain amount of money at their disposal in order to build the business and get it to the state where it's profitable.
    15:42
    What does the change now that Ametron owns American Pinball completely, what does that mean for the future funding of the company? Does it put it on a more secure footing? Does it guarantee future funding for the company for the next, I don't know, five years, whatever? but tell us what the financial difference makes from having Ange on as the owner.
    16:06
    So let me have a young man answer these questions. And if I need to add, I will add. No problem. So the reason that he's handing this over to me is because I was quite an integral part in our continued development of American Pinball and sort of our continued involvement getting more entrenched into it. And one of the things that we really wanted to achieve was a more secure future for American Pinball. And the best way to do that is by backing it with someone that has the resources, the technical know-how, and all of that knowledge that Mukesh alluded to before The knowledge in terms of how to optimize supply chain, how to optimize manufacturing processes, how to source material with the best quality, which is I'm sure going to be a very hot topic in today's marketplace. Trying to find the right balance between designing a game that has good features that are attractive while not over-engineering it and making it too expensive for the consumers to support. All of these are real challenges that every single company faces, and backing a younger company with the resources and the knowledge base, more importantly the knowledge base, because anyone can get funding, but very few people have the technical resources and the technical knowledge resources necessary to execute on something like this at our level. Right. Okay. It does seem that when you have a contract manufacturing company or an electronics contract manufacturing company as your owner, it seems a little strange that you're not using your own electronic system for your games. Is that something that we might be seeing some change in in the future? Yes. All I say to that is stay tuned.
    18:08
    Okay. So let me touch on that for a minute, Martin, because I can touch a little bit more on that before the team here. I mean, granted, to get started in a pinball manufacturing company, you know it takes a lot of, like you were alluding to, a lot of money, but it also takes a lot of R&D and a lot of research and to have a product that is strong. So to start that step, why reinvent the wheel? There was a strong product out there, so we partnered up with that, And that was still when Dovel was kind of associated with the product to get us moving forward. You know, the best way to sell machines is get them out the door. If you can't get a machine out the door and get it to the market on a timely fashion and you promise the world to everybody and you show them all this stuff, you know, you're going to tell them you're going to bring something, you hurt your market. So I have to say the one thing about American Pinball is that there were a few missteps in the beginning, but we continuously are improving. We are continuously selling games.
    19:13
    And we are, of course, we look at the options of building our own board set at some time to be able to continue the growth of our company.
    19:24
    The other thing that I want to interject with here is there is a very purposeful reason why we went with an off-the-shelf solution to get started with. For our first game for Houdini, one of the largest struggles that we faced was we were a completely new company. And pinball is obviously a very challenging product to launch successfully. So one of the factors that helped alleviated the potential customers that we had to help alleviate their concerns regarding the longevity of the company, We tried to make it so that if certain critical components could be bought off the shelf, then the product would be secure, it would be serviceable, there would not need to be any sort of, you could theoretically do 90% of the electronics on Houdini without having to work through American Pinball. and for the first product, for the first couple of products, that is very key in buying consumers' trust and that is something that we desperately needed at the time. Now that we are more established, now that we are more reputable, the consumers are much more familiar with our products, our quality, what we strive to achieve, the timing is much better now to evaluate an option like going with our own board set. Correct. And to touch on to Nermal's part, sorry, Martin, just to throw this out there, is when we went into this developing, when Houdini was being developed and then Oktoberfest, we used a lot of key parts, even in the mechanical aspects, that were industry-specific, and people know these parts. They're tried, trusted, and true. Why reinvent a whole type of mechanism when we know there are people out there who love these mechanisms already? So we use those off-the-shelf parts, too, so that they're well-built. You know, many people always talk about American Pinball as being a well-built machine. It's like a tank. Well, because we're using tank parts. You know, we're using stuff that is really good and letting the team invent and work with that. And of course using the P-Rock system brought that community under your microscope and you were able to employ some people who were very familiar with building P-Rock based home brew machines. Correct. Okay, well talking of people you've brought on board you've fairly recently hired Dennis Nordman, Jack Hager Zofia Ryan and of course Ducky Vidya yourself a relatively recent joiner at American Pinball but do you feel now that you have a full complement of team members that you need going forward or are there still some gaps that you're looking to fill some other key roles as you're talking about expanding the scope and range of products that you're going to be producing?
    22:37
    We are continuously looking to, we have some strong pillars. Let's put it this way. You know, you have Dennis Nordman as lead senior game designer. You have Zofia as senior mechanical engineer. You have Jack as the art director. So we are continuously adding to these people, but these people are our structure, okay? They're the guys who are going to, you know, lead the charge as a team. And, you know, Zofia talks to Dennis, and there's some junior people under Zofia that are working to build, you know, the mechanisms, and, you know, we continue to build within. But, you know, we wanted key people that have been in the industry to literally show us, and help guide a young team. You can't build a team unless you have a mechanical engineer. You can't build a game unless you have a game designer. You can't have art unless you have an art director. So these key points are really key to help the junior people to understand what it is. I mean, you have to go back. It's like building, you know, Dennis walks in with how I built pinball 101. You know, so, you know, there's tons of knowledge that these key people know in the industry to help get us a game out to the public. Right. But all those key pillars are in place now, are they? Yes. And we can take, and the one nice thing is we had a key pillar with Josh. Josh Kugler and Joe being software. I mean, these guys are the guys who are making the magic of the lights blink and, you know, everything under glass, you know, work flawlessly and continuously working on upgrading the programs and upgrading, you know, the systems. It's not like, you know, Houdini was the first, yes.
    24:35
    Oktoberfest was an advancement. Hot Wheels is even more of an advancement. So as we keep advancing our games, we continue to work on that. So, pretty good.
    24:46
    Well, you mentioned those three titles, and I guess the company's been in business for, what, around five years now. So, I'm guessing that you, given what you said earlier about wanting to take half the market share, you're going to be looking to increase the speed at which you release new titles. Is that correct? That is correct. I will tell you right now, we have a title that will be released very shortly. So stay tuned. It's coming out. Now, we've had some supply chain issues, which a lot of people have had. But I'm not going to announce something unless I'm ready to share it with the world. Okay? And I want to make sure everything is secure so that when I do announce it, it's available for the public to buy. Okay? Long gone are the days of let me show you a video and do some hand-waving and tell you about all this cool stuff and then wait two months or three weeks or four weeks, whatever the time period is. When I show it to you, it's going to be ready.
    25:53
    And that's the title that we're working on right now. Now, that doesn't mean that we're just sitting on our hands waiting for that. No, we've already got the next game that we have in development, quite a long ways in development. In fact, we're shooting for some time in the fall to have the next game, which then that's already kind of locked in and done by Dennis. So Dennis is already working on the next game after that for the spring of 2022. And then after that, we have one already kind of in the works for fall of 2022. So the idea of the company is to take it from one game a year or one game every 18 to 24 months to go to two games a year. And, you know, that's where we're going to be in the market.
    26:44
    And also to really look at this market and know our market, you know, because I come from an industry, and a lot of people know me from ICE, Innovation Concepts. And, you know, when I say to people that, you know, ice is this giant mammoth building, they think, oh, how big is ice? Well, 75% of any arcades in the world have an ice product in there. 75% of them will be an ice product. That company produced somewhere about 500 games a week.
    27:14
    And they had 22 game lines. So you think about how big and how much. And so the market and everybody goes, where were you shipping these things? Well, we shipped them to Australia. We're shipping them to Japan. We're shipping them to Dubai. We're shipping them to France. We're shipping them to Germany. We're shipping them to Italy. So in the quiet times in the last few months that we've been here, I have been and with the team have been working diligently, sharing up our overseas contacts and our overseas distribution network so that when we do release a game, guess what? We have this great distribution network. It's only as good as what you can get through the pike, you know. We have a manufacturer like American Pinball right now that's producing a wonderful game. It's built tough. It's got a great play field. It's got nice support all the way around. And yet it's right there for people and at a price structure that is going to break the bank, you know. And that's kind of a key point that Mitesh liked to share with a lot of people is that we got priced favorably in the market. We have a very feature-rich game that is not breaking the bank, and we're not having problems with our play fields. Just to interject one line here, you know, David, this is we are not making for profit. You know, this is something my wish to help community. If we are really only looking for money, we would have run, you know, upgrade the price twice. I know we used to have raised the price, you know, past couple months, but we never raised the price because our still goal is to build the family value, have kids play together with family, and, you know, just, yes, we do need to make some money to run the business. Every business has some needs. But this business is not only for profit-based, let's put it that way. Thank you. No, and Mikesh is absolutely right on that. I mean, asking the numbers just in the orders, it's like, well, we can see that the marks, I mean, prices go up, they go down. They go up, they go down. But we're maintaining it because Mikesh's core value is he loves the idea that put the cell phone down from the kids and get them on a pinball machine. That's what he really wants. And Hot Wheels was one of those things that he really wanted the core value of the kids to be playing with families on a pinball machine. And I think that's, you know, put the cell phone down and pick up the pinball machine, you know. So is that something, the family basis of your business, is that something which is going to influence the themes and the titles of games going forward? You won't be doing anything that involves a lot of blood and gore and shooting and death and anything like that. It will all be family-friendly titles. No, no, we're not. That's not going to put it into that regard. We're still going to make titles that people want. We're not going to say that everything's going to be, you know, cats and things. I mean, Houdini is, I consider, a very nice title, and I think Oktoberfest is a great title, too.
    30:36
    To the point that, you know, to different markets. But at the end of the day, we want to have that social communication. I think, Jonathan, you brought this out in one of your other podcasts. One of our key goals, and I know you said this, is put games in locations. Right. That is the key goal for American Pinball. I want to have the operators put it out there. The only way we can grow the pinball community is introducing people to new games. So, you know, like Houdini is kind of a player's game, okay? I've said this on a couple of other podcasts. Oktoberfest is like the barcade, you know? And Hot Wheels is kind of designed to be that great game for family entertainment centers, you know, FECs. But they're designed always as commercial equipment, well-built, good construction, at a price that is not going to break the bank and that operators can make money on. That's the key point, you know. I mean, if I look back, you know, Williams and Bally and all those games companies way back when, they didn't have a whole market to rely on. Did it work out well for Stern during a pandemic? Sure it did. It was great for them to have a family. And it helped us, too. But the long core group, Jonathan, is going to be definitely the operators and getting more people introduced to pinball. I think it's the coolest thing. Well, thank you for bringing that up. And you actually beat me to it because one of the questions I wrote down is which would be the target audience for American pinball? And not so much in age demographic, but are you aiming for operators or are you aiming for pinball collectors with large collections that put them in their own homes or possibly barcades, but I still wouldn't consider that operators, although they are operating, but that's, as far as I can see, a rather small percentage. And if I'm correctly informed, the pool of operators is still far more bigger and the pool of people that are buying games for their homes. You're absolutely right. The operator pool is huge. And that was one of the things we went after as of January 2021. We started, you know, looking at the operators and start dealing with some big companies. We got, we're now with Betson in their Betson catalog. We are, we have games out on test with Betson. So there you go. That's one of the biggest operators in the United States and distributors to operators.
    33:26
    To that point, Barcade is still an operation. Whenever a coin goes into that machine, if it's the Barcade or a family fund center, it's going to be there. Now, you know, the sad thing is during this downturn of COVID, we saw Namco operations in the USA close 800 locations.
    33:53
    800 locations of just normal arcades. Well, what does that do? Well, that's 800 locations across the United States that pinball can't get into. But we need to have pinball, you know, out there in the public. So we have to continue to grow. So, trust me, there's reasons. I worked for many years at Dave & Buster's, and I've already had conversations with Dave & Buster's about pinballs, too.
    34:17
    Okay. So, David, if you don't mind asking or answering the next question that's on my mind, you already mentioned that you work for ICE. ICE is a company that makes redemption-type games, And I know American Pinball attempted a redemption-type game as well with the Flying Dutchman. Are there any new plans in that area, or is that currently on hold, or is that something that will be further developed but there's nothing to comment on so far?
    34:57
    So everybody asks me about the Flying Dutchman. The Flying Dutchman was, believe it or not, before American Pinball saw it, I had saw it already somewhere else at ICE.
    35:08
    So is there possibilities for the flying dustbin? Yes. Is there stuff elsewhere? Yes. But as I said to Mikesh, and Mikesh and I both are kindred spirits in this, we really want to get the pinball locked in first. We want to get it into a routine where we have the right kind of team that we're producing two games a year and that we will continue to show the public that we have two different titles a year. Once we have that and once we grow the team, we may expand into redemption, but right now that isn't it. We want to have the core value of this to be pinball.
    35:55
    Yes, and everything it brings to the family, as you were explaining before. Correct. and granted the arcade or the redemption stuff is kind of family oriented because it's in family fun centers you know it's kind of fun kids can spend time with parents you know shooting the flying dutchman which is shooting a ping pong ball at a spinning thing but at the end of the day the core value right now is pinball because that's the company name American Pinball made in America, American stuff and you know trying to bring home those family values and one thing I want to touch on because I kind of got off on that point there and we'll just share with you is that starting with the next game which I can't tell you what it is yet but starting with the next game there's going to be two models there will be a deluxe and there will be a classic the deluxe is more going to be designed just for the homeowners and the collectors but the classic is going to be designed more for the operators. However, homeowners can buy the Classic too and enjoy it just the same. We're going to have, basically, it's just going to be trim packages different to give people a little bit more for their game. We already gave you a really strong title. We already gave you some really cool stuff in it. But we want to also keep that operator happy and help him get his ROI. I mean, after all, he's putting money into a machine. He has a return on investment. We have to show that to them. So once you show that to them, that's more machines out in the public.
    37:35
    Sure, and operators tend to worry less about what they can sell the game for at the end and more about what it's bringing in. Is that correct? Yes, and I will tell you, you know, you guys know that I work and partner with Pocket Deer Billiards, so I know the operations. The other thing I want to do is we wanted to create a pinball machine that is strong enough, that goes out there and earns money. I don't want a game that goes out there and breaks down because the first thing you want is a game that an operator can put out there on a location and go once a month and collect, maybe wipe it down and doesn't get that call. He doesn't want to have a call where the play field is falling apart. He doesn't want to have a play field where the mechanism fell out of the game. He doesn't want to have a call that something like a light bulb blew up and it's jamming up something. He wants it to operate like it's supposed to and work 100%. So that's the key goal here is, you know, like Hot Wheels is a great game. It's out on location. It's out on test. And people want to, you know, they want to see this thing work and not have that service call because operators want that. You know, the more, and that's the biggest problem. A lot of people saw pinball and said, you know what, we've got pinball out here, but it's a service technician's nightmare. I'm not making money because I'm always going out to service it, you know. So we have to make the game stronger for them. Right. So you basically want American Pinball to be known as the reliable pinball company. Correct.
    39:10
    Okay. You mentioned this a couple of times now, and there does appear to be a problem with playing field quality at some other pinball manufacturers. and I have to say to your credit, or the credit of American Pinball, that I've never heard of those kind of problems with any of your company's games. But I guessing well not guessing I think they don make your playfields as they do for Spooky Pinball as well They also don have those problems How come these playfields seem to hold up so well to regular play when other companies are having problems in that regard? Well, one thing is, you know, how do I say this? I don't want to cheap out on the playfield, okay? That is the number one thing. We use a seven-ply secret sauce kind of method of our playfields. They're really well constructed. They're a thick, nice play field.
    40:07
    Bader is our play field person, and I will tell you, when we had pricing start jumping all over the place, I went to McEsh and I said, let's lock it in. So we contacted Bader, and we locked in our play fields for the next year and a half. So we already know how many play fields we're going to be. We basically said, we're buying these play fields now so we can lock in the price where it's at so we can keep it steady. all right and uh not only that we have a good relationship so the owner of Bader calls me up and says Dave uh the playfields need another week on to cure properly you know they have a step process that they want the playfields to cure I'm like okay you need another week you got another week I'm not going to push those through just because I'm trying to make production and so forth we can we can keep the company running and get another game through or another production going through. Once we have those playfields are cured and they're done,
    41:06
    we put them in the machine. Now, the other thing is when we get our playfields, we go through a serious, serious inspection. We're looking for everything. We're looking for stuff that, you know, is that going to be a problem? Is this going to be a problem? Is that going to be a problem with the clear coat? You know, if there's a problem, we have a nice relationship with Bader, we send the playfield back. They take care of it, they fix it, they get us, they let it cure, and we're up and running. You know, I don't want to have a problem with the play field.
    41:40
    Granted, when we first got started, we weren't with Bader, and we had some play field issues. Then we switched to Bader in the middle of Houdini, and now they do all our Houdinis. And we haven't had a problem since. And we just continue to make, you know, take our time and give them a product that they're paying for. You know, at the end of the day, you guys are paying a good penny for a game, and the last thing I want you to do is have a play field that is showing.
    42:07
    I feel sorry for some people who buy a pinball machine that's for a lot more money than they're buying an American pinball, and their play field looks, after six months, looks like what a Williams pinball looked like after four or five years.
    42:23
    A location. A location, yeah. And it's like, I feel for these guys, you know. And listen, I'm a collector. You know I have over 100 pinball machines. I have, you know, I don't tell everybody I have this, but I have one of the original highway full throttle machines. You know, I have a couple of Jersey Jack stuff. I have, you know, Williams and Bally. I'm a pinball player. I love pinball, you know, and I want something that's going to, I even have LNG games, guys, and Capcom. So, you know, there's a lot of games out there, and a lot of these things, you know, I want to be able to have a game that I'm investing money in. I want people to invest money and be secure and feel good about it, too, that they're putting their money into it. Well, you've been in this business long enough to know, well, go back into the old times, where you literally could have pinball machines out on location for decades, and the play fields would still be holding up pretty well. and I'm sure you remember the introduction of diamond coat that William Huston did.
    43:29
    That seemed to be an issue which was done, done and dusted. You know, we know how to make playfields, we know how to clear coat them so they last forever. What's changed in the market? Is it different wood? Is it different regulations on what people can use in the clear coat or in the inks? So why is this suddenly a problem?
    43:49
    Well, I'm not a professional on that. So I would almost rely back to some of the Playfield guys and the other manufacturers. But I will say this, is that, you know, you're absolutely right, Martin.
    44:03
    Everything has been done and dusted. I mean, here's the thing. You look at a, I have a Getaway that has a clear-coded Playfield. And I can take that, and that game has got tons and tons of plays. I have never had a chip problem. I mean, yes, maybe around the upper hole. But that's, you know, it's a hole, so yes. But that's after so many years.
    44:28
    I don't know if it might be. It could be the clear coat that they're not using. Maybe they are using some, depending on where the play fields are maybe, they can't use a very aggressive clear coat. Or maybe they're rushing it. I don't know. I can't give you a, I can tell you what our company is doing. We take our times. We make a good play field, and we're going to make sure it's got a quality. And you know what? I want to hear, and I'm going to put this out to everybody in this podcast, if you have a Hot Wheels that has an issue, call me.
    45:00
    Just look up American Pinball, call me directly. Let's talk, all right? I will take care of that for you. But I already know that I'm not going to get those calls because of the calls that I've gotten,
    45:11
    there's not been any about the play field. so yeah okay great well you're as your director of operations and marketing you're also heavily involved in the running of pinball expo every october and as you will be this year so do you think now you are in both those roles that we will be seeing an enhanced american pinball presence at pinball expo this october it's a good question martin and let me tell you this right now. Yes, I wear two hats, but I'm going to tell you the other hat that I wear is I'm a pinball collector. And as Pinball Expo, I always have given a fair shake to every manufacturer, and I will still do that. In fact, the two heads of the companies, Jersey Jack, reached out and congratulated me and says, can't wait to see you at Expo, that kind of thing. And Gary Stern said the same thing to Rob Burke and said, hey, we'll continue to support Expo. Okay, so, you know, some people are like, oh, it's going to be a total American pinball. No, no, it's going to be a show about pinball. We give Gary Stern and we give Jerky Jack, we'll give Doug at Chicago Gaming. Everybody gets the same shake as American pinball. It's not going to be like a total American pinball show. Okay, we're going to do what our budget allows, and we're going to make sure that we show you guys that we have a product. You know, we may have a brand-new product at that time on the development cycle because we're shooting for the fall. So that would be kind of cool.
    46:52
    I know that Fimble Expo is on fire. It has been. I have had meetings with Rob, and we've been talking to the vendors. I mean, you know, you've got a new location that has 60,000 square feet of floor, okay? It's going to be unbelievable. And I think the vendors, we have just about every vendor signed up that was from the last couple years or more. We know that we have the hotel is almost completely sold out already.
    47:29
    Rob's been working on seminars. He asked me if American Pinball wants to speak. I said, of course, just like Jersey Jack and Kerry are going to be speaking at Expo. So, you know, we're going to have a presence as the same and comparable to Stern and to JJP.
    47:48
    So. Okay. Let's just sort of throw it back to where we started with this. and I'll ask him with cash.
    47:58
    Are you happy, pleased with the way that American Pinball is developing now, now that you've brought it on board as part of Ametron? Are the wheels starting to turn that you hoped you would see? So, yes. You know, I've heard some podcasters say that nobody's buying American Pinball. That's a true lie. I will tell you right now, I'm not going to go into all the hard numbers, but our first quarter of 2021 has beat the first two quarters of 2020.
    48:34
    The current quarter that we are in has already surpassed the first quarter and is on fire. We are currently, we have Hot Wheels in stock. We are selling Hot Wheels. We are making them. We also put Houdini back on the line. After so many years, we've had so many people wanting Houdini because they found out it's a challenging game. It's not an easy game. And it's funny. I've told people this story, Martin. I don't know if I share this with you. If American Pinball would have came out with Hot Wheels as its first game, people would have been blown away. It would have been amazing. Then Oktoberfest would have been just, you know, wow, they stepped it up again. And then Houdini being this unbelievably challenging game. You know, where did this come from? This is unbelievable. But because we brought it out in a different order, Houdini is such a hard game, but people love it. You know, the competitors want to play this game. I know people who have leagues and so forth who play Houdini just to learn how to play the game. You know, they want a tight, hard-playing game. So sales has been running beautifully. we're very pleased with it to the point that we have a second game line.
    49:54
    Thank you, David. That's what I was supposed to, you know, add. And I'll let you add it now. Go ahead and talk about it, my friend. No, no, that's fine. And actually, you know, thanks to, you know, Martin to elaborate this, you know, questions, actually. The building we have, what, 52,000 square feet is very lean, very well, you know, planned. and we have a capacity for at least minimum three lines, you know, and two prototype lines. So total five pinball lines we can put on that building. Already we, you know, put the second lines. Second line we already started, actually, as we speak, you know, and the new game will go on second line, you know. So that's one line can keep continue old. So you will see, I think, Martin, you need to come out and really, you know, take the tour and really appreciate it. We'll love it. Thank you. Can't wait. And Jonathan, you're welcome too to come. Thank you so much.
    50:55
    Just picking up on something you said there, David, though. You said you were remaking Houdini, but there's been quite a few changes in the hardware of American Pinball games through Houdini and Octoberfest and into Hot Wheels. So are the new Houdini games being made with the current hardware, or are you going back to the original? No, no. We're making it with the new hardware. All the new advancements, all the new stuff that was in there. So, you know, we have... Backbox design, new cabinet. Yep, the new backbox design. So, when Houdini was designed, there was never a port put on that game for a topper. So now we're using that same box, that same cabinet that has that port, so that when you want to add the Houdini topper, you don't have to drill a hole in your game, or try to fish it through something. Or run it into a plug on the back of the game, you know, on the back of the wall. That's always on. So now it's all connected to the game. We redid that so that it makes it much easier. We also did that with the speaker system because Houdini never had a big bass speaker in the bottom of it. It had a different kind of package for it. So now we went back, and now the new ones have the bigger bass speaker in the bottom of the game so it sounds a little different. You know, we also have the upgraded power supply that is available. And here's the thing. A lot of these are available for people. All these upgrades that we were putting in there are available already for most of the public that could have bought it. You know, if they had an old Houdini and they wanted to put, you know, the topper on, we can give them the port. Or if they wanted to have the new power supply, They could upgrade the current one to a newer style power supply, which is much beefier. Also, we have the flipper enhancement kit, which helps with the strength of the coils. That wasn't really designed. It was a design flaw in the beginning. But, no, we're integrating all those into the new game. But those are still available for people to buy at our store online. Right. Okay. I will just ask Nirmal, because you said you'll be launching game number four fairly soon, and potentially a second game in the fall. Will we be seeing you spearheading that launch, Nirmal, in the same way that we did with, well, not so exactly the same way as we did with Oktoberfest, but in a different suit, maybe?
    53:32
    Nirmal, you want to talk about your outfit you're going to be wearing? I was thinking which person I mean I was thinking which outfit I should be wearing this time but this time I think it'll be a lot more fun I was contemplating Lightning McQueen and I'm still not completely done with that idea yet still in the works oh yeah, a few cheese okay well you know how to launch a new product and I'm sure you've got a big team working on that right now. So we look forward to seeing that in the next few weeks, I guess.
    54:14
    I don't know if Jonathan has any more questions he'd like to ask. Oh, yes, I certainly do. Continuing on the next game topic, there have been some rumors that American Pimples' next game might actually be sort of like a contract game It was designed by another party that American Pimple sort of embraced and is producing as their own title.
    54:42
    I'm not spilling any names, although I'm not sure whether I would be spilling anything, but would anybody care to comment on that, whether there's any truth to those rumors or... Okay, so I'll take that one, Jonathan.
    54:56
    So the next theme is from one of our junior designers, who has designed this game, who will be working on another game shortly with Dennis and the rest of the team, with his team. So, yes, he's a junior designer, and we will be seeing that shortly. So, yeah.
    55:19
    Oh, and one other thing, Jonathan. I know you've asked this question, and I heard you mention this on your show before. And you never mentioned American Pinball. American Pinball, in its current capacity on a one-line system, we produce a little over 20 games a week, 20 to 30 games a week. So that gives you an idea. Because I know you had asked me, you know, that Dutch makes this many games, Spooky makes this many games, and these guys make that many games. I'll kind of tell you right now, one line we can get it up to close to 30 when we're pushing really hard. And now that we're bringing in a second game line, you guys can figure out what kind of numbers we're going to be producing. Right, okay. Well, thanks for that bridge, because that leads into my next question, which might be a bold one, but then again, it's me asking, so what else would we expect?
    56:14
    Especially from a bald man. I rest my case. I have to give credit to my reputation. so American Pinball in the past I understood that if another company is interested in manufacturing pinball machines you would be available for third party contracting so to speak yes so well there are some rumors of certain pinball companies having trouble getting manufacturing going of a certain title that we've already seen and has been prototyped and so on. What are the chances, and I'm going to be very bold out here, what are the chances of American Pinball becoming a contract manufacturer for Deep Root Pinball?
    57:07
    Well, here's the thing. If Deep Root wants to do something, call us. We'll talk. I've talked to, listen, I've talked to a lot of people in contract manufacturing. you know it's I have nothing against Robert and Deep Root and so forth I mean you know they've tried to set the world on fire they're running into some problems I know but we are open to contract manufacturing we've already talked to believe it or not somebody from other countries to start doing contract manufacturing for them we're kind of in negotiations for that and I've had some negotiations already with some of the guys with some of the games that we already know that have been trying to get into the market. Okay, so, you know, hey, I've been with Expo for a good part of 15 to 20 years. I know who all the players are. You know, when I started working for them, my phone was ringing from a lot of these people. So, you know, we already started conversations to bring American Pinball into contract manufacturing. And like Mitesh said, our facility is set up to do three, four, maybe even five game lines. So if we want to do a contract manufacturing, we may set up another thing, another line, and bring it in. So we're open for that.
    58:30
    You know, my number is on my webpage. Just call us. We will talk. Okay, well, this could be very interesting. there's certainly an open invitation for any pinball manufacturer looking for a contract manufacturing party and well, American Pinball might just be it. Yeah, and here's the other thing. You know our quality and our quality stands by ourself. So if we're going to do a contract manufacturing we want to make sure that we give the people who are buying it the same quality that they have already come to love with American Pinball. Right, okay, so earlier on it was mentioned that with the upcoming titles there will be a classic and a deluxe model with the classic model more being aiming at operators and I'm curious, and this might be game specific but generally speaking is the playfield on the classic and the deluxe model going to be the same or is it more like the difference what you see with Stern Pinball, where there is a premium LE model that has significant changes and added features compared to their pro model?
    59:47
    Or are we going to see the same play field in both models, but the cabinet exterior might be different? And that's about the only differences. So let me touch on that. You know I'm a collector. I love pinball machines, okay? and think about it, you know, some people say, well, you know, Williams had an Adams family goal. Okay. But the play field was the same. You know, it had some extra toys on it, and it had some extra stuff on it to make it look great. But the play field was basically the same. I kind of like, you know, I understand where Stern's coming from, where they do the LE and the premium, and they give people that little extra, you know, that's there. but why not incorporate that in all the games? You know, I mean, I kind of find it funny. I mean, I love the premium version of Game of Thrones, okay, with the upper castle and so forth. I played the pro model, and I went with the premium model. It's funny because there's a lot of people out there who will tell you they love the pro model. My thinking is that I want to make a model where you're going to have it. You're going to have everything in there. Yes, it might not have the milk can on it. It might have a plastic milk can. Guess what? You can upgrade it later. I'm going back to Houdini. It might not have that hand woodcarve pen check. All right? Maybe it'll have a plastic pen check. It's a little cost-saving, but guess what? You can upgrade it down the road for the classics and the deluxe. So I can see the, you know, the gameplay is special, and I want everybody to have that special feeling about it. I don't want people to go out there and go, oh, I bought the pro model because I can only afford the pro. But, you know, Black Knight Sword of Rage Premium is where it's at. You know, it's like, okay, because it's got the second level. It's got that extra play. It's got, you know, I mean, it kind of divides your product. You know, I want to give somebody the same thing. Now, that doesn't mean that instead of a set of drop targets, I might have stand-up targets. It's still the same gameplay. You're just hitting stand-up targets instead of the drop targets, you know. Some small, minute stuff. Hey, I'm already looking that the deluxe model of our next game is going to have a mirrored back glass for those homeowners. It's going to have that mirrored back glass. It's going to look awesome. You know, I always loved mirrored back glasses. Because I remember, and it's funny, I talk to operators, well, yeah, the left funnel comes with a mirrored back glass. And the operators will say, I remember when all the games came with mirrored back glasses. You know?
    62:37
    It's one of those things, you know, or side blades, art blades, you know. Operators are like, well, you know, it's got art blades in it. Okay, with big whip, you know, it's got that extra seam that makes, you know, ties it in. It's the black wood. So, you know, it's that little stuff that makes the game from a classic to a deluxe. But I think people are really going to be excited about, you know, what. And here's the other thing. We're not raising the prices. We're not going to go astronomic. I'm not going to say, here's our new deluxe at $15,000. We're going to keep our prices right around the same price range that we already have. and our classics are going to fall kind of in the same line where Hot Wheels is already at. So we're going to make it kind of fun for everybody and affordable.
    63:29
    Okay. And I have a question on that. You're not tempted to go down the route of doing a sort of menu of upgrades that people can pick from for their game if they're buying it for homes. You know, you can order it with a mirror back glass, so you can order it with the hand-carved chest. You can order it with the metal milk churn. You can, you know, but each one of those is priced separately, and you put your order in as some other companies have tried.
    64:04
    And, Martin, we looked at that, you know, and at the end of the day, it's like, okay, you know, we're looking at the number. It's like, okay, you can buy a deluxe or you can buy a classic, And the idea was that, you know, I'd like to go back and say, you know, Houdini is actually on fire right now with a lot of people buying it, including operators in markets we weren't in. So that was great. But the idea is to get the price down a little bit. So I'm thinking that, you know, we might offer it as a classic where we take out some of the toys and then the people can upgrade them later. So think about it. If you bought a classic Houdini, if that comes out, I'm just going to use that as a particular. Maybe down the road you could buy it off an operator, let's say, five, ten years later. You could probably upgrade it to a deluxe, you know, add on some of the cool little toys. I mean, think about it. Look at all the toys that are on Adam's Family nowadays.
    65:00
    Adam's Family, you buy one, it's $10,000. Do you think Williams had all those toys on that game when it came out? No. And here's the other thing. It's all subject. You know, some people may not want that toy on the game. I mean, it's a whole secondary market, which I'm all for. I mean, we have the mod couple. We have all these people making all these cool little mods for their games. You know, hands off to them. They're making their games, making my games prettier and making it, you know, fun for people to collect. I mean, you know, not everybody wants Uncle Fester sitting in the chair. Some people do, you know. some people don't want the bare rug over the lane some people do you know ok well it makes sense it sounds like if there is an American Pinball webshop it will be a good way to sell those items I suppose we are totally revamping well not totally we are revamping the American Pinball webpage so we have made it a little bit more user friendly We're going to be wheeling out shortly the new store. It's not available yet. It will be shortly. We will be wheeling out a lot of other cool little features that we have done. And one of the features, Martin, which has always been good for us, is that our customer service and our support. Let me just talk about this for a second. First of all, I don't know any other manufacturer that sits on pin side and actually watches their threads and goes through the threads trying to help people when they have a problem with American Pinball like my team. So we have Josh Kugler, Joe, and Dave Brennan. they will literally, and our sales guy, Michael Grant, they will sit on pin side looking through that going, you know, does somebody have a problem with something? Can we help them? Can we, you know, is there a problem with this? Is there a code update? Is there a bug fix? So they're proactive in that aspect. And one other proactive way we've been is that we have been bringing out service videos. So even when we are not there, say it's 2 o'clock on a Saturday night, we're closed for sure, 2 a.m., but a ball gets stuck or something happens to the game, you go to our website shortly and you go to our YouTube page and start pulling down all these service videos to help you, 30 seconds, how to remove the glass, 30 seconds how to fix a broken, you know, rubber or, you know, whatever. There's millions of little things, but there's a lot of more complex things. How to change out a coil and how does this work? And, you know, because, you know, the days of operators, and that's the other thing, the operators have changed, you know. The guy that was an operator 20 years ago, he's probably retired now. And he was operating games back in the 80s and the 70s, okay? So a lot of these new guys, new technicians, new family fun centers, they have a kid that, you know, they hired to, you know, he's a game repair man, but all he does is stick tickets in the game, okay? And he knows how to change a light bulb and so forth. So the idea is to make these videos so that anybody can work on these things. It's kind of like we'll teach them how to, you know, work on changing a coil and to diagnose the problem with the board and so forth. So we're really putting a lot of strength and structure in our service, our support for operators and collectors, of course always collectors, and just telling people that we have a good game and this is where we're at.
    69:09
    Okay. Looking at the titles that American Pinball has released so far, Houdini, Oktoberfest and Hot Wheels. Hot Wheels of course being a license, but not in the... well in the sense that it's sort of become common in pinball where you take a movie title or a tv show title and basically the storyline is given and a game is being developed and after all the approvals he has the game and that's it but it still has that appeal of such license and now looking towards upcoming titles and I'm also curious about the input from Mukesh and Nirmal on this, are the themes of upcoming American pinball titles going to be in the same line with common titles or generic non-licensed titles, but still a theme that people might be familiar with, or are we going to see more licensed titles?
    70:34
    Can you comment on that? And I'll throw this over to McCash and Nermal a little bit too, and I'll throw it back and forth. But let me tell you real quick, Jonathan. So Hot Wheels, I don't know, have you got to play Hot Wheels yet? I know. No. COVID happened. Yeah, I know. It's timing. Timing is terrible. Hot Wheels is based off of Hot Wheels City, a huge YouTube sensational TV show for kids. Okay. So, you know, gone are gone are the days when we woke up on Saturday morning and went in and sat in front of the television and ate cereal and watched cartoons. I mean, long is gone is those days. but YouTube sensations and YouTube, there's this thing called Hot Wheels City and they have all these absolutely cool little TV shows all about Hot Wheels and so forth that is pretty much kind of a storyline running around Hot Wheels game but also the imagination of Hot Wheels and what we've always done and trust me, Hot Wheels is a fully licensed product, if you ask anybody they're going to say yeah we have a lot of stuff going on in Hot Wheels And trust me, we had to go through the licensor to get a lot of things approved. People are like, well, why did you go with that? Or why did you go with this? No, no, it's all the license. Okay, so it's very much a license title.
    71:54
    To that point, we are going to do license titles. We will continue to bring out license titles. Will we see one in 2021? This is the number one question that I've been asked by many, many people. And I will refer this back to everybody in the industry. And Martin, you can vouch for me on this. A licensed game takes good part of over a year to develop.
    72:22
    Okay? So once you get the license, because you're dealing with a licensor, and to develop that game, it's going to take you a year to develop. Now, Dennis and I, yes, we walked in the door. I walked in the door in December, and Dennis walked in on January 1, 2021. So for us to develop, or for Dennis to develop a licensed game, we would have had to start six months before to bring out one this coming year. So we will have a licensed game in 2022, probably the spring of 2022. So right now, the next two games coming out for American Pinball will probably, will be unlicensed, but it will be a flair of an unlicensed that, most people in the industry have never seen. We're pulling out a lot of stops. I'm kind of happy because we have people like Jack and Sophia and a lot of big names that have joined on with us. Not this current title that's coming out shortly, but the title after the fall project is going to be pretty big. And when you get things locked down, we will definitely share that with you. But, you know, I think, McAsh, if you want to touch on this a little bit or normally you can about license and so forth, We want to be careful about movies and where we come in on that. But I'll let you guys touch on the licensing.
    73:46
    Sure. I really appreciate you filling the question my way. I just wanted to sort of talk about the learning curve that we went through. And you touched on this earlier, talking about the various levels of difficulty between Houdini, Octoberfest, and then ultimately coming to Hot Wheels. and one thing that we have been finding is that the design process, the development process for a pinball machine, when you have a license and when you don't have a license, are very different things, are very different processes to get them to market and still do it in a way that is within the timelines that the consumer is looking for. And so as we continue doing this, David did accurately state that we are looking into doing a licensed game at some point next year. But the more and more we start doing these combinations between the licensed and unlicensed themes, what I'm really starting to appreciate is the differences that they bring from a content standpoint. Me, I handle everything that is core technical. And when you look at the engineering of the games, it doesn't really change much based on what the content is. But the content, the creative aspects of it, what David is managing, I have the utmost respect for him and his team to be able to change directions that they go with on both licensed and unlicensed themes, being very adept and flexible, and being able to deal with certain approvals, certain challenges that come along the way, and still having a game out the door that is very fun to play. Because ultimately, that's the end goal for everyone. And so one thing that I really just wanted to share is while we are doing a bit of a hybrid approach, what we are finding is that the more we do licensed games, the more we are learning for our unlicensed titles, and the more that we're doing unlicensed games, the more we're learning for the licensed ones. And I really like the way that we are trending on this topic.
    76:01
    I would agree with you. Very interesting. Is there also a family aspect point of view where you feel like certain non-licensed games would be more suitable for families? or is that completely not related? There is some relation, but not as much as people normally think. For instance, Hot Wheel is a fantastic family theme, but there are a lot of licenses that we've been toying with that would really only appeal to certain age groups or certain specific demographics rather than the overarching family. And so we have tried to make our games as family-focused as possible. We try to make them so that they are enjoyable by all age groups, not just a select few, because as Mukesh stated numerous times, his dream is really to get the families involved, to get the children involved, and that's where it really makes a difference to us.
    77:07
    And so there is, we have seen some opportunities there, but not really so much as what the common belief may be. And I'll share with one thing with you guys too and I think this is very poignant.
    77:23
    Earlier this year or within the last few months of talking with some operators I had one operator reach out to me and he says I get it with Hot Wheels. He says when I first saw Hot Wheels I didn't understand what you're going for. He says I bought the game you know because you know I know you Dave and we want to put the game out on location and we want to see what it does. He says I put it out in a small little family diner, okay? And I'm thinking, well, let's see what it does. And he says, as I'm setting it up, a young family comes in, okay? And the kids went nuts because they saw Hot Wheels City on the back display. And they're like, that's my YouTube channel. I like watching, Dad.
    78:03
    It led to the parents and the children putting their food order in and putting money in the machine. And when the operator saw the kids were pushing the parents to put money in the machine, He says, I got it. He says, Dave, I understand exactly why you designed this and who you designed it for. You designed it for the families and you designed it for the kids to get the kids, the new players involved in it. You know, and, you know, I think back, you know, Martin, you and I and Jonathan, you were there for Expo. We remember the dark days in the early 2000s, you know, and the games weren't really, you know, people weren't getting the games out in locations. You know what I'm saying? mostly home. I remember going through a snoring tour that was pretty dismal. And Martin, you know what I'm talking about. We walked through it and it was... The empty factory. The empty factory, yeah. And I equate, you know, it's funny, and everybody will tell you, and I know I'm going to get some calls from purists on this and so forth, and people will say to me, you know, Dave, you know, video games kill pinball. Well there was this little thing called the Pinball Collection that hit Xboxes and Playstations and people got it from Farsight Studios You know where I going with this guys And it introduced a whole new set of pinball machines to this young crowd that were all addicted to video game boxes. Now, the rollover is that these kids went out, and they're in barcades, and now they see the game that they play at home, and now they're playing, you know, Revenge from Mars or whatever the titles were on. I can't remember them all back then. And they're playing them, and they're playing a lot harder than they did on the actual video game. And they're like, man, these are fun, you know.
    80:02
    And then that just kind of raised the awareness of pinball, and I saw people just start taking off. You know, people started playing, you know, got the young people involved in the pinball. That's your core group. If we stick to a hobby where there's just the older guys, it's just not going to continue to grow. Bringing the families in, it's going to continue to grow. You know, parents are now buying Hot Wheels because they played it on location and now they want to have it for their kids in their basement. Or they're just the world's biggest Hot Wheels collector of all times and they want to have the machine in their basement with all the cars that they've collected since the 1950s when they had the red lines on the tires. And they're part of the Red Line Club. So, I mean, that license is still gold. Many people, I've had a couple other people in the industry who, you know, said hats off to American Pinballs for coming out with Hot Wheels. It's a title that they wanted to do at another manufacturer. So, you know, it's a good title. And it's bridging that gap and bringing those families together.
    81:13
    So just picking up on the point that you mentioned there, how long before we see the American pinball collection from Zen or from Farsight or from the virtual versions of your games? We're open to talk to them, too. We haven't, you know, they haven't reached out to us, but I'm sure, you know, getting Houdini on that game is going to be tough, and they're going to say, boy, this is a tough game. And it is. It's a game that's very tough. However, code has helped. People have seen it. And streams, you know, I mean, you can't, you know, think about it. When we walked through the dark factory days, Martin and Jonathan, were there such things as streaming pinball machines? Not really. Was there, you know, tournaments where, eh, they were around, but they weren't as big, you know, launch parties. There's been so much of a great explosion. I've been happy to be a part of being there during the dark days and seeing it coming back to light. I'm kind of happy about that.
    82:16
    But yes, if Zen Studios wants to do our three titles, let's talk. I don't have a problem with that. I'll reach out to them too. It's a good point, Martin.
    82:28
    Okay. I have a question looking at well like we said earlier that you're aiming for the operator market now with Amtron being an American company but sort of under Indian management I would say if I'm allowed to say that yeah you can I mean basically I mean I don't I mean, there's American management in there too, Jonathan. It's not like it's solely all Indian.
    83:03
    The owner is Indian. Just like if, I'm sure the Dutch pinball guys, they're owned by, I think, Barry's Dutch. So, you know, and when, you know, at the end of the day, it's the love of the pinball is what they're in there for. But you were going to ask a question about operators. Right. Well, obviously India is not even comparable to the United States, but I am wondering, have you thought about designing a game for the Indian operator market?
    83:41
    Because India is still a huge country, and I can imagine people may not be in the position to play pinball at home, but more on location so it could be a potential market or is pinball non-existent in India?
    84:00
    It's a good question. I would almost refer to Mukesh and Normal on that because Go ahead, Normal. This is something that I am finding out as of very recently when my wife and I we went on honeymoon in India because there was a place where she wanted to go there was a place in Bangalore that we visited. And somehow she convinced me that it was a good idea to go to the mall. And this was pre-COVID, so malls were still okay back then. We went inside, and lo and behold, the first thing that we see is this huge arcade that is there, and they have all of the games that we would see in a regular Namco arcade. It's all there in this mall in India. and there were even a couple of virtual pinball machines. And so what I'm trying to get at is this marketplace that we're seeing is globalizing, and it's globalizing at a very fast rate. One thing that we are going to see in the very near future is definitely going to be pinball machines in India. And it's going to happen, one, because the cost of servicing them will be much cheaper there, and two, because it's not going to be something that they have seen before. It's going to be something unique. The kids are going to love it. They're not going to think of it as something as old-fashioned. To them, it'll be quite new, and it'll almost be higher tech than what they're currently utilizing right now. And so it's very interesting to see how markets that have not been introduced to pinball before are now being opportune places to start reintroducing it. And this is going to happen all over the world, not just India.
    85:49
    I would like to, still, I would like to, you know, just make sure we all are on the same page. That for Western, we will build in the U.S. only. You know, for Western areas, Western, you know, countries. So there is no chance of, you know, building in India. That's just to make sure we are on the same page and we are clear. because we build American quality. We understand manufacturing. We understand the global sourcing and supply chain. So definitely it will be built in, you know, maybe another division, maybe in Brazil or somewhere. It depends on what high-tax countries that David's choice because he is the director of operation. But just to make sure, you know, we will, you know, follow those protocols. Second thing is, you know, I left now this question about management and Indian own or something. We all are American and we believe in American culture, you know, just to reaffirm that our factories, you look at it, it has totally American feel. It's completely nice and clean and rules and regulations and policies and everything. So if you walk in through this, you will not see any kind of Asian even sense on that factory also. So just to make sure we are on the same understanding. Thank you. Sure. Oh, no, you're very welcome. I was more wondering, based on your Indian roots, whether there would be a possibility, let's say, pinball in India could take off. you might go with a popular Bollywood license for a game that's only available for India I don't see that much honestly Nirmal and David is optimistic but the reason is two reasons one is the weather is very cooperative so people love to go and play on the field you know go on the street cricket and those kind of games so it's kind of a slow process maybe after one decade because people have a lot of money also right now.
    88:05
    India is getting next level to the financial income wise because $7,000 for Indian worker is kind of they can buy a car over there. They cannot afford the information but they need still a lot of infrastructure need. So as for my thought process, it's still a long way to go for India to be a pinball. Yeah, maybe a different version. You can find a better version, a thousand dollar or something.
    88:38
    That's Nirmal's job, not my job. If you can make a thousand dollar pinball, India will love to buy it.
    88:47
    Oh sure, give me all the challenging questions. That's a great idea. Thanks. Yes, you're welcome. I'm glad he gave it to you and not me.
    88:57
    No, but maybe I gave you guys something to consider, and then you figure out what you do with it. But, Jonathan, to your point, let me just tell you, you know, operators, we're trying all the operators. We are reaching out to operators like we've never had before. You know, if they're in Italy, if they're in Dubai, if they're in South Africa, We're looking at markets that have been untouched for many, many, many, many years, and we are going down those roads and increasing our background with our people that are in those industries and showing them, hey, listen, we build a quality machine that will stand up. And, you know, that's the thing. It comes back to the quality of the build. You know, if they can put a machine out, an operator can put a machine out, and he can have it out there, and he just goes and collects the money, every month for an entire year, and he has to wipe it down once, that's money in his pocket. He knows where his money's coming. If he's got to go, and this goes true with redemption machines, they go out and they build a machine, and the guy's got a technician, and trust me, they keep logs of all the times they have to go and fix the machine, and if it's making X and they're paying this guy so much, it's almost like, you know what, there's a reason David Bussers and all these other guys stopped buying from certain manufacturers because their games are too high maintenance. Pinball is always considered too high maintenance, but now with the advent of, and I'm going to say it sounds so cliche saying this, with the advent of LED bulbs, okay, think about it. I think it's the best thing for operators out there because, you know, how many times did operators in the early 2000s change out the bulbs and you see a Stern machine or another pinball machine, I'm not saying it's stern, but any of the pinball machines. And after two years, they have two light bulbs on there. You know, it's like, okay, the machine's dark. You know, you can't play it. You know, it's been being built. But if a game is well-lit and it's playing well and it's good quality, you know, operators don't mind that. They want to buy something that they're going to get an ROI. And we give them a great playing game that, you know, if the rubber, let's say if the rubber was falling apart or is cheap and it looks like it dissolved within six months, what's that tell you about the, you know, kind of puts a glad mark on you. So we want to make sure that the operator and the home guy, because if we make it strong enough for the operator, the home guy is going to love it because it's going to last.
    91:35
    Right. Okay, well, let's see if you have any other questions you want to ask Jonathan. No, I think I've got all my questions answered. Yeah, great. Well, we can thank Mukesh, Nirmal and David for taking time out and giving us a very good description of American pinball's past, future and present operations. So thank you, guys, and we look forward to seeing you soon and look forward to the release of game number four whenever that comes along. So, thanks. Thank you, Mark. Thank you very much. Absolutely, thank you. And there you have it. Yeah, interesting, eh? Exclusive interview with American Pinball Management, as we can call it. And, yeah, it's very interesting, and it's going to be an exciting month, as we might see a new game from American Pinball. Oh, yeah, I think it almost certain. And, yeah, TVA are going to be very busy getting that game launched as well as continuing to build the existing Hot Wheels games and the remakes of Houdini. Right, okay. Now, in terms of that new game, do you have any idea what it could be? Well, what I know, what I'm told, is that the junior designers who are working under Dennis as a senior game designer, they are both, at least two of them, and they are both from the sort of homebrew pinball developer community. Right, which is also where Josh Schugler, American Pinball Programmer, is coming from. Yes, he produced the Kugler family pinball and another one after that, which temporarily escapes me. But yes, he was, and of course that was a P-Rock game, as indeed are American pinball games, as we discussed. At least they are up until now. Right. So it would make sense that from the P-Rock community, they bring in some more design development effort from the pool of talent that is out there, but so far kept relatively small scale, so they can break into the big time. Right, okay. So I've seen some rumours, or I've actually seen one title being rumoured, I'm not sure whether there's any truth to that, but since we're also looking back at the month of May, I think it's safe to say that that title has been rumoured during the month of May. Okay, do you want to tell us what that rumour is? Yes, the title is Legend of Valhalla, which is designed by Scott Gullock from Riot Pinball.
    94:26
    Yes, and of course he also was, well, I think his earlier game was Wrath of Olympus. Yeah, that was really an effort. Well, that was very close to actually going into production, wasn't it? I think they put a call out to Spooky Pinball, and they couldn't make it work at the time. No, they needed a number of commitments. I don't think they quite managed to hit the target they needed in order to actually go ahead and manufacture it. But, you know, maybe that's different now at American Pimple. For those who are not familiar with Rise of Olympus, I think that's probably the most packed white-body game I've ever seen.
    95:05
    It was pretty impressive, I think, the amount of time it was in that game. It has a nine-shot fan layout with an upper playfield, and everything, it really, really squeezed as much into what they could put into that cabinet as you can probably imagine. So that was actually a very good effort, I would say, but probably a bill of materials that just makes it impossible. Although, I was going to say, and also I don't think American Pinball would be going into wide-body games as they're trying to standardize all their cabinets and back boxes onto a single platform now. Right. Well, they did a wide-body game. Well, Cobra Fest was a wide body, but probably not the success that they were hoping for. That's a good point. Yeah, I've forgotten about that.
    96:02
    So, never say never. Hmm. Okay. Well, if it's any of those two titles and Scott is working for them, good luck, Scott. And if it's something else, then we'll find out soon enough. Absolutely. Yep, later this month, hopefully. So, that's the I think that's the news We have from American Pinball So, we've got to move on to our second headline Which was all about The launch of a new game A definitely launch of a new game Yeah, The Mandalorian A Star Wars themed Pinball machine, another one I would say Yeah The Mandalorian is a TV show Which is airing on the Disney Plus channel So you have to be a subscriber or to have a subscription in order to watch it.
    96:51
    Apparently it's a very popular show. I have never seen it. No, nor me. And I did watch the videos of Jack Danger playing the premium or the limited edition model, and last night he played the pro model as well. Yes, I saw the premium one. I didn't get around to watching the pro one yet. or haven't got over to yet. It's a fast playing game. There's quite a bit into it. And much to my delight, they actually,
    97:27
    especially with Dwight on Code, things might get complicated or complex. But it appears to me that they actually try to keep it simple for those who are not into the deep rule sets.
    97:45
    And it's a very fast playing game, which I think a lot of people are going to enjoy. The only, well, the big disappointment for me is that they put this big Grogu toy in the game, which everybody's referring to as Baby Yoda. Yeah. It's just static, it doesn't do anything. On the premium and limited edition there is a magnet below it. And so supposedly Baby Yoda is toying with the ball. But I have to give credit to Kaneda in this case who showed a $20 toy which has eyelids that are moving, ears that are moving I mean, why would it be too much to put such a toy in the game and you probably could have gone easily to a thousand limited editions and have sold them all. That's the way that I'm reasoning right now. You know, I don't think, aside from Rudy in Funhaus, and the two similar heads in the Red and Tats roadshow, I don't think we've seen any animatronics in pinball. Basically, this is just a throwback to X-Men.
    99:27
    Well, it's worse than that. It's not even a bash toy, is it? The ball doesn't even interact with it at all. Right. Well, only with the magnet when it's on that upper playfield or whatever it is. Well, the magnet is on the ground level, and there's the sort of... Effectively, it kind of grabs the ball and feeds it to the mini playfield on the pro, well, in fact, all of them, whether it's actually a mini playfield in the premium, and it's just another area, it's a sort of sectioned off area of the main playfield on the pro. So I suppose that's kind of like Grogu grabbing the ball But it's a bit It's a bit weak isn't it really Considering what could have been done with it It is but Even on I'm thinking of Rollercoaster Tycoon At least the troll there jumped up and down Did something and was a bit active Whereas on this one As you say sits there and does nothing Right Rather disappointing No, well, I mean, just a little more detail. As you said, Dwight Sullivan is leading up the software. Tom Capera is the lead mechanical engineer on the game. Of course, Brian Eddy is the lead designer on the game. I don't even mention that before. So this is Brian's second game for Stern after Stranger Things. Right. And, yeah, as I say, another Star Wars franchise, which Stern have done countless ones of so far in various different versions. Right. And they also have a very positive relationship with Disney, as far as working on Star Wars games goes. Right. Although they always seem to complain every time about how difficult it is to get authorisation or get clearance on all the assets. But it doesn't seem to stop them going back and doing more. Right. So either Stern likes to drive their designers crazy, Or maybe it was easier this time working with Disney with the Mandalorian. I do have to say, and that's one thing that is sort of surprising, aside from the game layout, which I think Brian Eddy did a fantastic job in, there's some cool innovations with the mini playfield that actually changes pitch on the limited edition and so on. So there was one thing that sort of raised my eyebrows with The Mandalorian, especially it being a Disney theme or license, yes.
    102:17
    And that's the graphic nature of the video assets in the game. I don't think we've seen that many kills in a pinball machine before.
    102:34
    But they're fairly graphic, are they? Yes. As opposed to like Star Wars where it's shooting stormtroopers and you never actually see any blood or whatever. People just collapse onto the ground and that's about it. Right. And now there's this... this M.U.D.S. I forgot the name of it. M.U.D.S. whatever it is. And after you beat it, it's basically... It's being killed and sliced open with a knife and what have you. what have you and I'm like why would you even I mean okay you you you beat the animal great but does it have to be that graphic? Well, hopefully there's a family setting for it then. Yeah and maybe it's just me being European I don't know and maybe that's not that not so much a big of a deal in America. It doesn't sound very Disney-esque does it to depict that kind of, that level of violence, but... Not Peter Pan-ish, Pinocchio, Snow White, no. I just think the Mandalorian is a different genre altogether, and goes in a slightly different direction, so... Right, right. So, and aside from all that, I mean, if you just look at the Mandalorian,
    103:55
    that is guy which, that has this mask on, what if his nose itches? or how is he supposed to be eating or drinking? I haven't seen it, I don't know whether he wears it all the time, whether he wears that helmet thing all the time, or whether there's a visor, or what there is in it, but, so probably somebody who's more knowledgeable about the franchise has actually watched it, or fed us in on that. Right, okay, well, anyway, Phil can't wait to play the game, and I think Brian Eddy and his team did a wonderful job, let's be completely clear about that.
    104:36
    Apart from the Grogu model, maybe, but there are some add-ons available for the game, if you want to make it a little more bling, you can get a customised shooter knob, you can get side art, which is styled like the weapon, the rifle type device that the Mandalorian uses, and you can also get some stylised inner cabinet art, which you can stick onto the plain side of the cabinet on, I guess, the Pro, at least. I can't remember whether the Premium has any. I think it probably doesn't, but they're leaders, I'm pretty sure. Speaking of art, we didn't mention it yet, art by Randy Martinez. Yes, that's right, who does most of the Star Wars work for Stern. I guess he's approved by Disney, I suppose, to deal with this stuff, rather than have to go through the whole approval process each time with a new artist. Right. So Randy, who always produces excellent work, And the Mandalorian is no different. Right. And Stern, well they had some international promotion going on as well, as they do every year. They went to the Chinese import and export fair in Guangzhou, which is in China. Very good. Right. And if I've been informed correctly, they had a booth with Avengers Infinity Quest, Star Wars Comic Art and Jurassic Park for attendees of the show to play. And this is more of a trade show for operators, distributors and so on. So it's not so much for the common public. No, that's right. Yeah. And what's actually interesting to note is that I understood from our dear friend Mike Kalinowski from Homepin that Stern actually does have printed flyers at these shows in Chinese. So if you're collecting flyers, I suppose those are the ones that you really want for your collection. Yeah. Because those are the very rare ones. Might be good to go over to China and actually correct me. Pick a lot in person these days. But hopefully Stern will be able to provide some at some point, which would be nice. And I'm interested to see them. Also interested in what the price point is for the game out there as well. So far what I've understood is that the games are rather expensive and I think you have to think about, well, let's say, premium pricing, what in America would be premium pricing as a minimum, I suppose. But then again, I haven't seen the numbers from the last show. I'm just going by what I heard from previous shows, so maybe that changes in the meantime. Okay. Well, some more Stern Pinball news, and congratulations to the company. as they have been selected for the 2021 Best of Elk Grove Village Awards in the Manufacturers category. And apparently they have this every year, they have the Elk Grove Village Award Programme, and they award companies who are located within Elk Grove Village, according to various categories, and this year, Sturm Pivel won in the Manufacturers category. Okay, now I don't want to rain on your parade, but seriously, Elk Grove Village isn't that big of a city. I mean, this sounds like an award that's been given to any company every five years or something, just to keep them happy. Well, you say it's not that big. I mean, how many cities do you know that has two pinball manufacturers? Oh, well, if you go back, I mean, Gameplan was also based in Elk Grove Village. So Elk Grove Village has a pinball history, as does the entire Chicago suburbs. But then still, I mean, it's not like they found a cure for cancer and they got an award for that.
    109:02
    No, no. It's still nice to be recognized. Oh, yeah, sure. And hopefully help publicize Pimble to the wider community who may not be aware that there even are Pimble manufacturers in Elk Grove Village. I mean, aside from anybody that got that press release, probably nobody knows about this award and nobody cares. Well, I have to admit, I did search for details of the Elk Grove Village award program and I couldn't find anything recent about it at all. and certainly no press releases from the organisers about who had won this year so I don't know, maybe CERN were quick off the mark to get their press release out before the organisers did but it doesn't seem to be a hugely visible award programme should we put it that way. We're talking for five minutes about an award that really nobody cares about. Because we don't know who's going to win it next year. Nobody cares who's going to winning because it doesn't do anything for you. You win the award and now what happens? Life goes on and nothing changed.
    110:09
    So, I'll bear that in mind next time you win a Twippy. Point taken. Moving on. Sturmbin Ball, actually, with all the focus on launching the Star Wars The Mandalorian, didn't release any new game code this month. So, we can't bore you to death with that. Thank God. Although... No, no, no, sorry. Okay, so moving on to our third headline.
    110:38
    Yep. Haggis Pinball in Australia sold out of their Mermaid Edition of the Fathom Revisited game, which means they sold all 250 available units. There was a timed period in which people could order, which I didn't get, and I also didn't get why it limited to 250, but that's what they did. And if you didn't order one, then you missed out, or maybe you can find one with a distributor, although the games were quite pricey, so I'm not sure how many distributors would actually jump in. I got the feeling this was more of an effort for the Australian market, so to speak. Yeah, although it's Australia and America I think because the game's been shipped to Planet Free Pinball in the US as an alternative pickup point and then it'll be shipping on from there, but yeah I'm sure there are international shipping business who will be selling the game the classic edition as it was called was priced at 9500 Australian dollars which is about 7,400 US dollars. The limited edition Mermaid edition was 11,500 Australian dollars, I should say, which was just shy of 9,000 US dollars. Plus whatever taxes and shipping you have to apply on top of that. I don't know whether there are any import duties on people from Australia into the US or indeed to any other countries. but if there are, that has to be added on top. But, yeah, as you said, there's a four-week window for orders, and right up to the last minute, Damien was producing videos saying, you know, that don't forget, only 24 hours left on the pre-order window of the Mermaid Edition, and it is limited to 250, and then as soon as the window closed, all 250 were sold, apparently. Right. So either they were all sold before, and this is just a bit of publicity, or a lot of people dived in right at the end in order to secure their place. Right. Either way, congratulations to Damien and the team at Haggis on selling that out. They're going to have to make a lot of new pinballs, and to do that, as I said, they've got their new facility being set up. And I haven't seen anything much of that other than just like a corner of an office or something. Well, I think in one of the videos, Damien was walking around. I think it's a two-story building and quite a large facility where they are at.
    113:34
    And they're obviously in the process of moving in and getting everything set up. Right, yep. And obviously this is more than just Damien working on this, he has to put together a team in order to produce this game, and he's been introducing us to members of that team in a series of videos that are available on Facebook and on the Haggis Pinball YouTube channel. The first of those videos is with music director Casey Dean, who I would assume is rescoring the original sounds for the game and producing the soundtrack that will be in the alternative ruleset version, currently only available on the Mermaid Edition, but you just need to see whether that changes at some point. And the second video is with creative director Scott Steedsman. So, yeah, quite a team put together there for the build of the Mermaid and the classic editions of Five and the New Disney. Right, okay, well, plenty of work to do for Haggis Pindle, but we're happy for them. Absolutely. And if you get in on a game, I'm happy for you as well. Okay, so let's head back to Elk Grove Village, where we were, to a company which didn't win the award this year. It came right out of my mouth.
    115:04
    But probably going to be in the running for it next year, given the success of Guns N' Roses' title.
    115:12
    Yeah, Jersey Jack Pinball. Right. They have, well, a bunch of sort of fairly minor news items, but with no new game launchers expected or planned for quite some time now, I don't think, with all the orders they have in for Guns N' Roses, which are going to keep them busy for some time. But there have been some, well, quite ongoing issues with the playfield.
    115:38
    It's kind of like the adhesion between the playfield and the wood, and no, Jersey Jackman will not be any company to have issues of that kind. Right. But maybe, I think, given the premium nature of the collector edition and the limited edition of the Guns N' Roses title, and earlier titles as well, the buyers of those games are getting quite vocal about ongoing problems with parts of the artwork and parts of the clear coat chipping away and basically coming loose from the playfield after not that many games had been played. Right. So what's interesting to note is that when such issues arose a couple of years ago, people were looking for a solution in using either a different clear coat or like Stern did, no longer printing around the posts area so that the clear can attach directly to the wood instead of having ink in between it. But there are some voices out there that say that the current problems on Guns N' Roses are caused by the force which is used to actually put these posts in and screw them down. and apparently there's a, I think, one can assume that there is a hydraulic drill being used, but if there's only one setting on it, which is full speed or nothing, that might be part of the problem. Yeah, well, we were talking to David about this over at American Pinball earlier, and they don't really understand why other companies have the problems because the company that they're using, Veda, to make their playfields doesn't seem to have that issue and they're the same company that produces playfields for Spooky Pinball, as I understand, and Spooky don't have that problem. So it's solvable, I think. It's just a question of working out what the problem really is and how to address it. Right. Or what also could be a problem, looking for the solution in the wrong direction. Yeah, quite possibly. There's a number of factors involved, as David was saying there. Is it the wood? Is it the glue that they used to glue the plies together? Is it the treatment they put on it? Is it the inks that they're using now? Is it the clear they're using now? There are a number of factors, and it may not just be one of those which is causing it, it could be a combination. But it is a real problem and really once you sent the game out what can you do to rectify it if these problems occur Are you going to send people a whole new playfield well if you send them a blank playfield you expecting them to do a playfield swap because that not realistic if you send them a populated playfield that's going to cost a fortune and you can't send them a whole new game either I would have thought because that could cost even more so once the game's out there and obviously the pressure is on when they've got a lot of orders in for a game to get them delivered to the buyers what do you do? Do you halt production and say, right, okay, come on guys, no more games until we've sorted this out? Right, so one of the solutions that I heard was being offered was that, in this case, Josie Jack Pingball offered buyers of their game basically to buy their game back. But, well, there are two sides to that. If we have to believe Canada, nobody is going to do that because these games currently sell for over $20,000. So, it's the collector issues. Yes, so why would you go for a refund if you basically miss out on, I don't know, a possible profit of $8,000?
    120:15
    On the other hand, I also heard that that offer already is no longer on the table because too many people were asking for a refund.
    120:24
    So at this point, I don't know what to believe. and at Jersey Jack. Although I have to say I didn't reach out, but I did see that other people reached out and basically they are not commenting on the situation. No, that's their position all the way through, I think. Yeah. And other companies... To an extent, I can understand that they say, well, it's only a small portion of the games that are being affected, so you don't have to communicate about it in press releases and what have you.
    121:02
    But the people that are suffering or having this problem... Yeah, they're very vocal about it. Right. Understandably so. If they just get their new game and pretty soon they run into problems with it, then it's not surprising that they want to make that position known in order to try and get some action. Right. Well, I haven't heard Slash complaining yet.
    121:29
    No, true. Although I have heard people suggest that they write to Slash and make him aware of the problem that other buyers are having, which seems a little on the juvenile side. I'm not sure that's the way, but... No.
    121:44
    Anyway. Anyway, yes, so moving on. Jersey Jack Pimple are opening a new merchandise store. It's not open yet, as of the date of this recording, at the beginning of June. But if you go to pinballwizard.com, you will see a holding page, I suppose. It's probably the best thing you can put on there. And that holding page invites you to sign up with your email to be notified when the store goes live. So I think they will be selling a whole bunch of various items, including things like toppers for the games, starting with a Guns N' Roses one, I think. Right, but I think this is a rather unexpected move, I would say, because when Guns N' Roses was announced, I think Jersey Jack just opened their own web shop.
    122:39
    Yeah, I think they're moving to a more... This shop is being run by Shopify on their behalf, was being hosted on the Shopify platform. Right. So I guess they're trying to sort of kick it up a notch and make it a bit more exciting and get the publicity for it. But, you know, Stern have been very successful with their store, so it makes sense for JZJ people to try and do the same thing. Right. Okay. Well, good luck to them. One of the things they might haven't been on there because it's probably already sold out by now was the latest in their series of factory finds and that was a bunch of white body cabinets if I'm not mistaken That's correct which probably is crushing some dreams for people I suppose because that might indicate that we're not going to see a white body game from Jersey Jack any time in the near future. And it probably also indicates that we're not going to see a rebuild of Pirates of the Caribbean, which is a white body. That's true, yeah. And they were being sold relatively cheaply, I'd have thought, especially if you were looking to a homebrew game. $100. Yeah, very good value. I assume, well, I don't know, was that just the cabinet, not the back box? I suppose it was the entire thing that's the only number I saw so right, ok well, even so good value for a brand new cabinet and a wide body one at that so with plenty of material in there so if you I don't know if there are any left I don't think there are I think they all sold out very very quickly right that was my recollection it was a while ago at the beginning of the month I think so anyway worth having a look and there's no reason to think that they won't find a few more hidden away in a corner somewhere under a blanket. Right. And then in other news from Jersey Check, they did have some code updates. I'll leave that to you. Yeah, they certainly did. And credit to the company, they've been going back and retrofitting some of the new features they've added to their very latest games. So, on May 11th they announced version 3.11 for The Hobbit, which adds the Bluetooth and Wi-Fi connectivity, and the Scorebit integration as well. You might remember Scorebit is the online scoring system and tables, and almost like a remote control for the game over the internet. And that's become very popular, and has been added now to The Hobbit. The Wi-Fi and Bluetooth will both need a suitable dongle to install, but those are pretty cheap items you can pick up in numerous places. It also adds a thing which we spoke about last month. The beta program opt-in option allows you to get new code while it's still in development before it's actually released to the wider public. and then you can issue, or you can send in your comments, thoughts, bugs that you've noticed, and they hopefully get picked up before the final release version comes out. So that's an option as well. And hot off the press, just today I think, The Wizard of Oz also got Wi-Fi and scoreboard integration added in version 7.03. Right. I mean, that's really good to see the very first game being supported. They haven't got a huge back catalogue, but to go back to the very first title and have that is great. So all those games can now be added to the Wi-Fi for software updates and to integrate with Scorpid. So good news there. And also Guns N' Roses, obviously the current game, that got a version 1.22 on the 17th of May. mainly just bug fixes and some camera adjustments and tests and all that stuff was also made available for Willy Wonka on the very same day version 1.37 of the code there as the camera adjustments and enhanced tests so that's new code for everything I think pretty much from VirtualJazz right ok so in the meantime you might have heard my phone ringing as you um oh no i suppose uh saved by the bell with all your code updates um it's our good friend gary flower calling in let's see what gary has to say yeah for once let's do hello gary hi guys uh would you like to order some cocktails please What? Stop the tank, now? No, hang on, I need to turn my phone off. Oh. And he's off again. I think this is, this qualifies probably as an accidental call or something like that. Yeah, a butt dial I think is what it's sometimes referred to, where you sit on your phone and accidentally call someone. Sounds like he's on the beach somewhere nice. Have a good frame. It's lovely weather today, certainly in the UK it is, anyway. And a couple of cocktails, so... Yeah, well, he's always asking for cocktails, I mean, that doesn't indicate anything, but yes, it's good cocktail weather, so... So, can you make me get one, then? And we'll catch up with Gary and find out all the latest on the pinball and cocktail. No point in calling him back now, because obviously, with all these cocktails... Wow, yeah. Well, he might let something slip that he didn't intend to, about what's upcoming on various... Anyway, we'll hear more from Gary another time. Yeah. So, moving on to, well, pick a company, I would say. Well, we haven't quite finished with Jersey Jack Pinball. Oh, my God. Yeah, I know. Because amongst all the code updates, there's also new terms and conditions which were published for what happens if you connect your game to the Internet. And if something happens as a result of you doing that, It's quite interesting reading if you're a bit of a geek, like what I is. Then you can go through it and one of the paragraphs says, It is possible, although extremely unlikely, that use of the service that is connecting to the internet and JGP servers could leave your game in a completely inoperable and or unrecoverable state commonly known as bricked. And then it says in the event that their technical support can't help you, their remedy will be to send you a new solid state drive at their expense and ask you to send the old one back also at their expense. So that's something which could happen. No compensation will be offered. And also, it says as a collection to the service, the machine may transmit certain usage information for analysis by Jersey Jack Bingle, including but not limited to machine audit values, machine adjustment values, error logs and operating system logs. Although it does go on to say that any data transmitted to Jersey Jack Bingle is done anonymously and does not correlate to you as a user or an account holder. But, come on, it's interesting that the games are sending back usage data back to the manufacturers now.
    130:25
    I can see Jonathan's interested by this. Sorry. Also interesting that they do specify that the machines shipped by Jersey Jack Pinball contain a camera for in-game entertainment use and high score recognition. But the JOSEJECMN specifically stipulates that no information brought by the camera will be transmitted over the internet to their service or servers in any way. So don't be worried about adding internet connectivity and the camera information being sent. Because it's not, even though some minor stuff about how the machine is set up and used will be sent. Okay, I don't think you have a way of opting out of that, so that happens automatically.
    131:11
    Okay, that's it? That's it, go on, move on. Okay, so a Guns N' Roses topper, where we briefly mentioned it, likely to be revealed soon? Yes, not the only topper which might be available for Guns N' Roses. I do know of another company also working on a topper which would be very attractive and has amazing light displays, which would work very well on top of Guns N' Roses, as well as a number of other rock-themed games. We'll have more on that later, I'm sure. Okay, so, as I was saying, pick a company. Okay, well, yes May was the time we were waiting for an update from Deep Creek Pinball They did promise to do a mid-May update And it was kind of mid-May, a little bit late, but mid-ish And, well, basically it didn't contain any information much about the progress Other than saying there were continuing delays, shortages of parts and have difficulty finding labour in order to start building the games. In their defence, there are shortages of parts, and there is a chip shortage as well, and so, yes, that is an issue.
    132:38
    It is. It is an issue that's affecting all companies, and so I don't think we should necessarily hold that against Deep Blue, although one would have hoped that by now they would have had most of the parts in for some time. ready to build the games. Right.
    132:54
    Well, as part of that, it's probably worth saying, as part of that update, one thing that they did offer was to refund the so-called non-refundable deposit payments or indeed full game payments that people had made for Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland. You could either pre-order it, all the orders are pre-orders, You could either do a deposit or pay a deposit, or you could pay the whole gain cost up front. They are offering refunds on those if buyers are fed up of waiting any longer. There's no timescale given on when those would be made, those refunds, and it's simply said that refunds will be processed in the order in which they're received. so there is various speculation about whether this is indicating that Deep Root are trying to get out of building Raza entirely by refunding all those who actually bought the game or whether they're looking to make a smaller number or whether they think they can make more money by reselling those people who asked for a refund and resell those games at full cost, which was significantly more than the price which pre-orders were taken at. Well at this point we still have to see whether they will actually be able to build any games. I do know a company that has a possibility to do third party manufacturing. Yes, have several lines set up I think, in order to make different games. Yeah, well, we'll see whether anything happens on that, but it's been indicated, I suppose, of how committed Deep Root are to not only designing their own games, but also manufacturing them, and as we know, those are two very different skill sets. Right, okay.
    134:52
    That actually brings me to another company that also has announced games, but not yet built them. which is a company that we don't talk about in every episode, but in this case it has a good reason to, Pinball Adventures.
    135:11
    Yes. Playing for the Pony Factory. Yes. So they announced the Pony Factory to be, well, it should be in production by now, and it's out there, but isn't. Yet they already announced their second title, which is called Elements. They did that by posting a teaser on YouTube, explaining the design philosophy about the game and, well, all that kind of stuff. It's a video in, I would almost say, typical Pimble Adventures fashion, but more bearable than the ones for Pony Factory. Yeah, I actually found it to be hugely annoying in a way. Not because of anything that was in it, it's simply because they had this kind of wizard guy who's meant to be speaking the lines or commentating on the video, but he's not saying the words that we're hearing. No. No, I originally thought it was lip sync that was out, but then I quickly realised he's actually saying something completely different. different yeah you just got the visits from somewhere who's just yeah rumbling about something completely else and they use that footage and as well as various pictures i think some of which i recognize very very poor attempts of uh deep faking i would say yeah yeah weird weird thing to do but um yeah it's quite a long video so um yes over six minutes so um it does actually go into quite some depth about the basics of the ruleset for the game. Actually, I will go as far as saying that it actually looks like an interesting game. Hmm, yeah, I think so. Kind of familiar, similar in a way to the Mandalorian, I thought, in that there were like three zones in which you have to collect five different items, or collect the five elements for each of the characters. That was the idea. So it's just like on the Mandalorian. You've got three inserts and then you're subbing the smaller inserts around them as you complete the modes for the features. Same kind of thing, I think, for elements.
    137:40
    Right. Yeah, I found there were some elements, no pun intended, that reminded me of Rick and Morty. Oh, okay. That's interesting. I haven't picked up on that. Okay. Well, as you can see, everybody sees something in it that relates to different games. Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see when Pony Factory will actually be built, and how soon elements will be available as well. Yeah, if you look at the P-Wall Adventures website, which is actually pinwallbuzz.com, and have a look at the games there, you will be able to see H. Lyre and various details about Elements, along with the other eight titles, or nine titles in total, that they announced a long time ago, starting with Funny Factory Elements, Sushi Pinball, Ninja Pinball. That's Whack, Fruit-O-Matics, First Class Pinball, Canada A, and World Domination. So all those have been announced, and each of them has a little bit about them. but yeah, Elements, there's a description there, although I didn't see, I think there's actually a link to the video on that, but if you go to their channel, you'll find it, I'm sure.
    139:02
    Right. Okay, so moving on to, I suppose, the next company, which, let's have a word about Spooky Pimble then, because we haven't mentioned anything about them so far, and they've been putting a few teasers out about what their next title is going to be. Right. Which is going to be a spooky theme title.
    139:28
    Ooh. Okay. Yeah. Well, no more information than that, I guess, at the moment. Oh, and just a few teasers and a fragment of the cabinet. Hi, Jonathan. I've got some really exciting news. Please call me back as soon as you can. I'm going to be around for about half an hour, then I'm going to decide. There's some rumors around a change in the way they're going to offer this game as well, aren't there? Well, yeah, and again, we're going by the source of the Kaneda Pinball podcast. where he basically mentioned that Spooky will adopt a similar three-tier model like Stern or Jersey Jack,
    140:19
    so a pro-premium LE kind of thing. And I believe it was also announced that the next title will have a run of a thousand games. but we still don't know what it is and whether there's any truth to that so let's just wait and see whenever Spooky is ready to reveal which should be theoretically any day now because I think Rick and Morty production is as good as done I wonder if they're going to be in a position where they've actually got some games all ready to sell them when they do make the announcement like American Pimple were talking about and of course every company wants to be in that position as well, they wouldn't want to announce the game and say well you can order it now and it's shipping straight away but as you say Rick and Morty almost at the end of the run there is new code for that you'll be pleased to hear Jonathan on the 18th of May there was a new release. Fortunately, nothing major, just a few bug fixes and crash fixes, and that's about it, really, so we didn't spend any more time on that. Right.
    141:41
    Okay. And what else do we have? Well, Chicago Gaming. Yeah. There had been rumours around that they would be announcing their next remake title, which is widely expected to be Cactus Canyon but apparently that's not going to take place as planned as a good reporter I tend to verify news every now and then and in this case I called Ryan White of Chicago Gaming who is their marketing manager I suppose and he said He did not know where the rumor is coming from, but it certainly didn't come from them.
    142:29
    And whenever they are ready, they will let us know up front when they are ready to announce a new game and we'll get the inside scoop. But for now, there's nothing he could say. So I'm not expecting any news from Chicago Gaming this month. No, I think that's fair. So while American Pinball are getting ready to launch their game this month,
    142:57
    and possibly Spooky Pinball as well, then we don't want to have it too crowded with new game announcements, or next month's podcast is going to be way too long.
    143:09
    So anyway, from a company that hasn't got any news, let's move to another one that hasn't really got any news, which is Pinball Brothers, who are remaking the Alien title. Yeah.
    143:26
    They... There have been lots of requests from people for them to give information about what's going to be available, what's going to be added to the game in the upcoming limited version, or LV model of Alien.
    143:42
    Pinball Brothers are standing by and saying, or standing by their initial claim, said, no, we're not going to announce anything until summer. Well, it's kind of looking out the window, I'd say it's summer now, at least in the northern hemisphere, I think, I don't think we're talking about the southern hemisphere, so hopefully there'll be something coming out about what's in the limited version fairly soon. Right. So, yeah, it's a bit odd in the sense that last month they had like a dozen prototypes being put together, shown.
    144:20
    Do you think those games would show up somewhere? Not so much. I think I did see a video from a pinball club in the UK, if I'm not mistaken, where they were playing the new model. So some of those new games are arriving at customers. Yeah, that was James who runs Pinball Bazaar in the UK. and I can reveal that there will be an Alien remake, or not remake, an Alien new version available at the upcoming Swayze show in Cambridgeshire in the UK on July 2nd or 4th, I believe, are the dates for that. So that will be one of the games available to play. Okay, well, interesting. And it will certainly be interesting to see how the game holds up if it's being played all afternoon long. Yeah, it will be, yeah, over about three days. So it's going to be a good test. Right. But I was hoping for more from Pinball Brothers, but then again, let's see. Who knows, next month. Yeah. Or next month, whatever.
    145:34
    Then, yeah, from Pinball Brothers, it's not such a big step to Dutch Pinball, also based in Europe. Not so much to report. I did speak to Barry earlier today.
    145:50
    They're still slowly cranking out games, but they're being delayed by the same supply chain issues that all manufacturers are currently dealing with. And Barry is hopeful that it might take maybe the next four to six weeks to solve those issues, and then they expect to be going at it at full speed again. Do we have any idea how many sort of back orders there are, or how many early achiever additions are still unfulfilled? I have no numbers on that, so I wouldn't be able to tell you. The last time I was in the factory I did see early achiever numbers in the 60s being built, but that was already a couple of months ago, and I couldn't be able to tell you what the current number is. So no plans that you know of yet to announce the next title from them?
    146:55
    I'm sure there are plans, but I have no idea when they will be revealed. Okay, fine. Not a problem. So, talking of... Companies with their name? Well, I'm talking about companies which have an upcoming game which hasn't been revealed yet, which we know about. Last month we spoke to Mike Kalinowski of Homepin. I did a good interview with him and he told us about their next game, or at least certain details of it, but wasn't able to tell us exactly when it was going to be announced formally. He did say they had a deadline on it, as it had to come out this year. So it probably won't be too much longer before that is made public, but he hasn't revealed it, or didn't reveal any more details of the actual theme itself. Actually, based on the fact that Joe Walter only recently got hired, I'm expecting it probably will take another at least three, four months, I suppose, before any title is going to be revealed.
    148:08
    You know how it is with pinball, it's very hard to do. I know there's a contractual obligation that the game must be in production before the end of the year.
    148:21
    I think it was before that, I think it was October. Right. I'm afraid it could be a very close call based on how hard pinball is then again we don't know how many people are working on it behind the scenes and so on but oh well if there's news we'll report it and I'm sure Mike will be more than happy to come on the show again and some good news Mike did mention in the interview that they were starting building Thunderbirds toppers which were part of the deal that was those who pre-ordered the game that would come with the topper, well those are actually being produced now and being shipped to those who did pre-order the game they're not available to purchase separately so if you didn't pre-order the game then you can't buy it although it doesn't look overly complicated but it does look quite attractive and will hopefully look good when it's on top of a Thunderbirds game right so So, well, I guess we're sort of rounding up because we're in the companies with no news. And one of those companies is also, as far as we could figure out, a multimorphic. Yeah, yeah, I've searched and didn't find any more news other than Kevin from Buffalo Pinball has been doing some more streaming of the heist game.
    149:44
    But so you go to Buffalo Pinball's website and YouTube channel or Twitch channel. In fact, you can watch gameplay from Heist, including the famed 15-ball multiball that we spoke about in the last podcast. Pincast, I should say. I might want to check that out, because I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, OK. So Buffalo Pinball is the place for that. OK, excellent. OK, I suppose that pretty much rounds up the pinball manufacturers. So we move on to a little bit of other news, I suppose. and I suppose the big news, literally, is from the Pinball Hall of Fame where they have completed their massive pinball sign on the front of the building and it looked impressive before when it was painted red letters basically from almost the bottom of the building up to the very top and it covered the entire width of it, just the word pinball in red and it looked amazing and I think was well people just by itself, but it's now been revealed it's actually illuminated in outlines as well, so almost like a neon outline to those letters, so it could be, rather than just being lit at night, it actually illuminates itself and spells out the word pinball in kind of neon, I'm not sure it's LED, but neon type lettering. So that looks amazing. So go and have a look at the Pinball Hall of Fame YouTube page. I don't know if there's a video for it, but it's certainly on their Facebook page, I should say. So go and have a look at it there. It does look amazing. There's quite a few people who have taken pictures of that and posted them. So, and tagged the Pinball Hall of Fame in them as well. Yeah, congratulations. We thought it was amazing before, we just spelt out the word pinball, and now it's eliminated, looks absolutely awesome and great publicity. So congratulations to everyone there on that. I feel curious why it doesn't say Pinball and then Hall of Fame below it. Yeah, I was wondering whether they could have painted that on either side of the doors. Hall on one side of fame on the other side of the doors. It would be possible. Yeah. But Pinball's the important bit. I suppose it is, yes. Oh well, so if you go to Vegas and you see a sign that says Pinball, I suppose you, well, you found the Pinball Hall of Fame. Yeah, I'm sure it would be easily visible from planes if they're coming in that direction. Right. I don't think there's, although Las Vegas obviously has plenty of neon lights and so on, I don't think any of the other locations basically say, like, huge slot machines. No. No, no, I suppose not. Again?
    152:42
    Well, they tend to have sort of big screens outside, don't they, which cycle through various messages. So, yeah.
    152:50
    Actually, I think it's kind of probably assumed that most of the places there will have slot machines.
    152:54
    Yeah, OK. It's good that the Pinball Hall of Fame doesn't. Right, OK. So, anything else? I think we've pretty much covered anything. I think we, I can't remember whether we mentioned about Jim Patler. No, we didn't. Or not. No, we didn't. It's probably worth mentioning that, because we were talking about American Pimple at the very start of this Pincast, and of course Jim Patler was there as, I forget exactly what his role was, he was the Chief Operations Officer or he was Head of Production.
    153:29
    He didn't stay there for very long before moving. Yeah, and then he left, and then he popped up over at Jersey Jack Pimple. where he was their chief operating officer. He joined in July 2020, I think it was. There's an interesting story to that. Yeah, yeah, me too. Well, what I understood from someone who knows someone who knows someone, I think I know someone.
    154:00
    Apparently, Jim Petlar supposedly was interviewed back then to work under Pat Lawler, and funnily enough, he ended up running the place.
    154:16
    Yeah, I think when he came in and interviewed, he was offered the job of Chief Operating Officer. Right. But sadly Or at least I'm not sure whether it's a sad situation But I was sort of saddened to see that Jim actually retired again in February of this year Yeah, well he was retired before he went to work for American Pimples And he left there and was officially retired again And then very shortly after was back at Jersey Jack But yeah, now he's back retired again So he was there for about eight months In that position which does sort of raise the question well, who is running the show there at Jersey Jet Pinball now if Jim was the Chief Operating Officer and who's taken that role over? Right, well, if you know the answer you can call the studio now Yeah, or just tell Gary and he'll come on next month and tell us all about it Right, but no, it's an interesting question and it's also interesting to see that JJP announced the retirement of other employees, but not that of Jim Paffa. Yeah, well I think companies generally tend to make a fanfare when they employ or hire staff, and somewhat less effusive about it when they leave. So, it's understatement. But, yeah, they mentioned those who are retiring, having given a long service. I guess Jim had only been there for eight months, and we don't know the circumstances in which he left either.
    155:59
    And we probably never will. Well, it depends. Maybe I should give him a call. Yeah, I doubt we'd be able to put it in the pin cast. Anyway, we wish Jim the best, and obviously wish Jersey Jack the best as well with continuing with their production and without Jim's input any longer. I mean, he may have just been there for a contract in order to help complete a particular task and may naturally have come to the end of that contract.
    156:35
    Okay, so I suppose this rounds it up. Thank you for listening. We hope you learned some new stuff if you weren't following everything yourself.
    156:47
    And, of course, we had some scoops from American Pinball, which you will read about on other websites as well, after we put this out. So thank you for your time. And Martin and I look forward to the return, but maybe sooner than you expect, because if American Pinball will be announcing a game before the end of the month, and it's still, let's say, like a two week window before our next show, we might do a bonus podcast. Hmm, yeah. But we'll just have to wait and see. Yeah, no guarantees, but we hope to have some good access to the key players in the production of that game that we would be delighted to bring to you, courtesy of American Pinball. So keep an eye out for that. And, of course, if you have any thoughts or comments about the Pincast, please don't hesitate to get in touch with us. Jonathan is editor at pinball-magazine.com and I'm editor at pinballnews.com and we'd be delighted to hear what you think. Well, we may not be, but we'd certainly be interested to hear what you think about the Pincast and which features and segments you particularly enjoy. Right. So, until next month when we'll be looking back at all the events in the pinball world of June 2021, it's goodbye from me, Martin, and from me, Jonathan.
    158:28
    And until next month. Bye-bye. Bye.