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Episode 20 - Monkey See, Monkey Do

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·49m 27s·analyzed·Oct 30, 2018
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

SWL Episode 20: Whirlwind rebuild progress, Oktoberfest art controversy & pricing, Beatles pinball reveal reaction.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss Episode 20 of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast, covering Bill's Whirlwind 2.0 restoration progress (19 hours invested, 20-30 more expected), recent pinball acquisitions including Deadpool and Hobbit, controversy over Oktoberfest's backglass artwork (a monkey grabbing a woman's buttocks), American Pinball's decision to change the artwork, Oktoberfest pricing at $7,400, and the newly revealed Beatles pinball machine by Stern with its simplified EM-style layout and lack of coin door.

Key Claims

  • Bill Webb has invested 19 hours in Whirlwind 2.0 cabinet work with 20-30 hours remaining, plus 10-12 more for stickers and 4-6 for decals

    high confidence · Bill Webb directly states hours tracked on Whirlwind 2.0 restoration project

  • Oktoberfest pricing is $7,400, a $400 increase over Houdini

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell states official pricing announcement

  • American Pinball has decided to change/modify Oktoberfest's backglass artwork due to family-friendly concerns regarding a monkey grabbing a woman's buttocks

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discuss the controversy and American Pinball's responsive decision-making

  • Beatles pinball machine lacks a coin door, suggesting it's not designed for location/route play but rather for Beatles fans and collectors

    high confidence · Ken explicitly notes the absence of a coin door and explains the design intent

  • Beatles playfield is based on Sea Witch re-theme with added mechs, spring disc, and magnets

    high confidence · Bill Webb describes the mechanical foundation of Beatles layout

  • Deadpool artwork/layout has grown on Ken Cromwell after recent play sessions

    high confidence · Ken describes enjoying Deadpool, praising Stern's execution and George Gomez's design

  • Hobbit machines in the $6,000 range represent good value in current market

    medium confidence · Ken suggests Hobbit pricing relative to other available machines

  • Beatles artwork by Christopher Franchi uses pastel color palettes period-correct to the Beatles era

    medium confidence · Ken describes the artistic direction and historical design choices

  • Oktoberfest production should begin within next few months with machines arriving in homes around Q1 2020

    medium confidence · Ken and Bill estimate production timeline based on American Pinball's historical release patterns

Notable Quotes

  • “Everything's for sale, as much as I hate to say that”

    Bill Webb @ ~11:00 — Reveals collector philosophy on resale even while building custom machines

  • “The end game music, when you drain that third ball or whatever ball you're on...you just kind of sit back and you listen to that music and you're like, you know what, everything's going to be okay”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~18:00 — Illustrates Deadpool's artistic/emotional appeal beyond mechanics

  • “I don't see that being very family-friendly”

    Bill Webb @ ~30:00 — Captures the key concern about Oktoberfest's original backglass artwork

  • “This was not designed for your average pinball people. This was designed to open up doors to people that love the Beatles and a different type of collector”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~100:00 — Articulates the strategic intent behind Beatles pinball's design and target audience

  • “If you can pay $7,000 for a theme that you like, you'll pay $7,400 for a theme that you like”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~55:00 — Assesses price sensitivity in boutique pinball market

  • “At the end of the day, they got to make money selling these things. And if it's going to affect their sales, then it doesn't make sense to keep it in”

    Bill Webb @ ~45:00 — Pragmatic business perspective on content moderation decisions

  • “I think it's almost like it's a masterpiece of Beatles...I'd be proud to own that machine if I was a big enough Beatles fan”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~95:00 — Strong endorsement of Beatles artwork and design sophistication

  • “Pinside almost burned to the ground last week when the Beatles video was released”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~70:00 — Captures viral community reaction to Beatles reveal on Pinside forums

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonGeorge GomezpersonJerry ThompsonpersonTanyapersonBalcerpersonChristopher FranchipersonDennis NordmanpersonGreg Freersperson

Signals

  • ?

    restoration_signal: Bill Webb detailing extensive cabinet restoration process for Whirlwind 2.0 including sanding, painting, degreasing, sanitization, and estimated 40-50 total hours to completion with all upgrades

    high · Bill describes 19 hours invested, 20-30 more expected, plus 10-12 for stickers and 4-6 for decals; details sanitization process and custom mechanical additions

  • ?

    product_strategy: Oktoberfest priced at $7,400 (+$400 over Houdini), positioning American Pinball at premium boutique tier directly comparable to Stern Premium pricing despite lower production volumes

    high · Ken notes $7,400 puts Oktoberfest 'in a different price point where now you're being compared to, say, like a Stern Premium.' Discussion of bill of materials and production scale justifying premium pricing.

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Oktoberfest backglass monkey artwork sparked Pinside controversy; American Pinball responsively modified design for family-friendly appeal despite initial designer intent

    high · Ken and Bill extensively discuss the monkey grabbing buttocks imagery, debate PC sensitivity, and confirm American Pinball's decision to change artwork. Bill calls it 'a classy move' to address legitimate family concerns.

  • ?

    announcement: Beatles pinball officially revealed via teaser video on Beatles official retail store; 60-90 second video showing simplified EM-style layout based on Sea Witch with added mechs, spring disc, magnets

    high · Ken: 'Pinside almost burned to the ground last week when the Beatles video was released.' Bill describes video contents showing bells/chimes, period-correct artwork, and lacks coin door.

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.148

0:00
Broadcasting live from the Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale Craft Beer Studios, this is the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast.
0:13
The Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Thanks for hitting that start button and taking the plunge.
0:23
Here are your hosts, Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb. Bill Webb Hey, what's going on everyone? Bill, guess what? What? Episode 20. Wow. Of Special Inlet Pinball Podcast. Twenty. Twenty episodes. I'm Ken Cromwell. My co-host is Bill Webb. Bill, we've got 20 episodes of our podcast up and running, officially starting right now. Kind of crazy. It is pretty crazy. It's pretty cool. You know, when we hit five, we're like, let's see where this goes. Are you still hanging from Expo or are you recovered at this point? Because we are now two weeks. I'm still kind of... Are you a little bit? All due to, you know, a hard day's night. Yeah, no, no, we're getting over it now. It's just been a crazy couple weeks anyway, so. So in this episode, I wanted to focus on Expo 2019.
1:06
No, I'm just kidding. Expo was fun, and we will leave it at that, but let's check in, because I know you've got some progress that's been made on your Whirlwind build, restoration, breakdown, teardown. Yep, yep. Up the chains. What's going on with Whirlwind, buddy? For the people that are getting sick of hearing about it, you know, please write in, but there have been people that asked about it, so we try and keep it current with what's going on with it. Yeah, so I got the rest of the cabinet done. I got a router, the glass channel plastics into the cabinet, and then the cabinet is completely done, ready for sanding and paint on the inside. The head is built. I got four pieces to put in inside of the cabinet to hold like the speaker panel and the trans light. All right, then the front piece across the top that covers the lock and then the head would be complete. And we've got pictures that we'll upload to the Facebook page tomorrow to show the progress on that. And it's interesting because in the pictures that you took, you actually have your brand new cabinets side by side with the original Whirlwind cabinet. And it's just, it's nice, man. I mean, you do such a good job on those. It looks cool. It does look cool. I mean, I've been able to see a lot of your cabinets as they've been completed and they're always so top of the line. And I even inherited one over here. Yep, yep. A second. That one's going to be used for our homebrew pinball machine that we hope to announce at some point next year. But we are in the, we're excited to announce we're in the starting phases of actually getting this up and running. So that's pretty fun. Oh yeah. Well, and you know, the retouch, so we're when the cabinet's basically done. I got about five hours left and the cabinet will be ready for paint. I'm hoping to have that done Sunday so I can get ready to start painting next week. The inside of the cabinet and then, you know, it's like a week and a half process to do the whole thing. How many hours do you have in that cabinet at this point? 19. Okay. I've actually been keeping track on that. When it's all said and done, how many hours do you think it'll take you from start to finish to just complete that cabinet where you're ready to drop a playfield in there? Oh, at least another 20, 30 out at least. Okay. You know, there's probably another 10 to 12 to get it stickered. Then you got another 4 to 6. Decaled. Right. Gr digitally modern guys, John Popadiuk, Automated Amusements, Jerry Klyce, Zach Meny, Speaker 1 I have some other degreasing agents I used on it for some of the connectors. It's not as abrasive. Then, you know, so I ran it through and sanitized it. Sanitized features, you know, so not only is it clean, but it's... It's sure free. We could eat off of it now. Right, you're not gonna contract any disease off of the wire harness of your Whirlwind. Exactly. So yeah, so when it comes time to putting the playfield together, I don't really have to strip down the original playfield, The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. All right, so we're going to have a little bit of a whirlwind with a, you know... I mean, it's going to be like a brand new whirlwind almost, right? I mean, for the most part. Well, yeah, it's going to be, you know, brand new cabinet, brand new head, brand new light door, brand new speaker panel, brand new trans light, brand new speaker panel, plastic, brand new speakers, brand new playfield, brand new plastics. So what are your thoughts when it's done? I mean, do you keep it in a row or do you sell it? Have you thought about what you want to do with the machine at that point? I want to keep it, but honestly, if, you know... If the right offer came along. Well, yeah, I mean... Money talks, right? Everything's for sale, as much as I hate to say that. Yeah, I understand. I'm not building for that. I mean, I'd still play it. Right. And there's a lot of funky stuff that are, you know, cool custom stuff that I want to do to it anyways that I don't want to talk about until it's done. You've spoken to me about a few of the things that you wanted to add, some stuff that has not really ever been implemented into a pinball machine, but it's tasteful and it's something that would set that particular whirlwind aside from any other whirlwind. So I'm excited to see what you do with it. I'm even more excited to see just general reaction for people to get a chance to see it and play it. Yeah. Should be pretty fun, man. It'll be cool. It'll definitely be different. And then as soon as this is done, then I can jump back on the high speed project, which I'm stashing parts for. Yeah, you've got a lot of projects in the pipeline. Yeah. We're going to get to the news in a second. We will do our best to inform and entertain along the way. But for now, I wanted to talk a second. I've recently come in possession of an Attack From Mars remake and a Deadpool. And I had owned an Attack From Mars remake in L.E. last year for a while, and it was super, super fun. I ended up moving it along only because I can't keep all these pinball machines. At most I can keep four or five machines at any given time, and I'm the type of person that likes to kind of rotate pins in and out. I'm still trying to find my grail pins, so by rotating pins in and out it lets me play a bunch of machines that I normally wouldn't be able to play if I was sitting on pins for The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. I guess it's, is it seller remorse that I suffer from at times? I don't, I don't know. I haven't seen you buy a pin for a third time, so. Not yet, not yet. Not yet. We're still on doubles. Right. Um, thank you. But for that other pin. Sorry, just jagging. No, you're right though. I'm starting to think about it. But you have a cool one that you haven't had in here before. Right, which is Deadpool. And I had not had a lot of time, in fact I hadn't had any time on a Deadpool. And I started flipping it for the first time last week. Deadpool's pretty fun, man. Like I know that there are those in the camp that like Deadpool and those in the camp that say that it's fun but it kind of gets old. I'm loving it right now. The way that mine is set up, it's flowing pretty well. It's not as clunky as it was when I first got it. I think you really have to put some effort into leveling the pin and getting it at the proper pitch. I'm having a great time. The code seems fun but like I'm getting lost sometimes. I know when I get into the juggernaut mode or the T-Rex mode, I don't know what I'm doing in it. Mark

  • Ken plans to announce a homebrew pinball machine build in 2020

    high confidence · Ken states: 'we're in the starting phases of actually getting this up and running. So that's pretty fun...we hope to announce at some point next year'

    • Steve Ritchie
    person
    Stern Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Whirlwind 2.0product
    Deadpoolproduct
    Oktoberfestproduct
    Beatlesproduct
    Hobbitproduct
    Attack From Mars Remake LEproduct
    Houdiniproduct
    Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale Craft Beer Studiosvenue
    Pinsideorganization
    High Speedproduct

    design_philosophy: Beatles pinball intentionally designed for Beatles fans and non-traditional collectors rather than typical pinball audience; lack of coin door explicitly signals home/collector focus not location play

    high · Ken: 'This was not designed for your average pinball people. This was designed to open up doors to people that love the Beatles and a different type of collector.' Compares strategy to Supreme machine.

  • ?

    content_signal: Special When Lit Pinball Podcast reaches Episode 20 milestone; hosts reflect on growth from Episode 5 uncertainty

    high · Opening segment: 'Episode 20. Twenty episodes. I'm Ken Cromwell.' Hosts note reaching 5 episodes with 'let's see where this goes' mentality.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Deadpool praised for engaging code, memorable end-game music creating emotional payoff despite drain; Ken describes getting lost in Juggernaut and T-Rex modes but finding overall experience rewarding

    high · Ken: 'The code seems fun but like I'm getting lost sometimes...when you drain that third ball...you just kind of sit back and listen to that music and you're like, everything's going to be okay.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Ken expresses concern that Oktoberfest playfield artwork is overly busy despite defending design intent; notes difficulty digesting visual information but open to it growing on him with extended play

    high · Ken: 'I'm not sold on the art package on the playfield because there's so much going on...maybe a little less busy is what I'm going for...might grow on me after playing.'

  • $

    market_signal: Hobbit machines trading in $6,000 range; Ken describes this as bargain pricing relative to newer releases, positioning older JJP titles as value plays in current market

    high · Ken: 'I think you can still find these in the $6,000 range and when you think about everything that's kind of out now, that's a pretty good value. That's a bargain pin.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Ken employs rotation strategy acquiring multiple copies of machines over time (Attack From Mars remake LE twice, Deadpool recently) to maximize game variety while maintaining limited personal collection capacity

    high · Ken: 'I had owned an Attack From Mars remake in LE last year...I'm the type of person that likes to kind of rotate pins in and out...I can keep four or five machines at any given time.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Christopher Franchi recognized as Beatles pinball artist; Balcer confirmed as designer of both Houdini and Oktoberfest at American Pinball establishing designer brand/track record

    high · Ken praises: 'Christopher Franchi really killed it on individuals.' Bill confirms: 'Balcer...who just designed Oktoberfest' and previously Hobbit.

  • ?

    machine_intel: Oktoberfest production expected to begin within next few months with machines arriving in homes around Q1 2020 (first quarter estimate)

    medium · Ken: 'I think they're going to be starting production here in the next few months...I would assume around...first quarter of next year, I think is realistic.'

    • 9:08
    The end game music, when you, you know, usually you're disappointed when you drain that third ball or whatever ball you're on. But when you end the game in Deadpool, you just kind of sit back and you listen to that music and you're like, you know what, everything's going to be okay. It's super, super fun. So my hats off to Stern on Deadpool. George Gomez, nicely, nicely done. It's just, it's fun. Tanyo, I can't wait to see what you do with the code and its finality. And Jerry Thompson, the sound is ridiculous, Zombietti, excellent art package. Womens of the fun quious. If that makes any sense. Oh yeah. You know, I just got to play a game on it right before we started the podcast, and it definitely feels like it flows well. I realize I had, you know, a three-minute game, so it was nothing incredible, but it generally felt cool. It is cool. So I look forward to playing it. I'm looking at it right now. I mean, I'm not sure about the inner loop shot on the left, to the left of the scoop. Like, that just kind of seems like maybe it was something that was added later. I could be wrong. Maybe I don't understand the significance or the importance of it. It could be mode. John Popadiuk, Automated Amusements, Jerry K. Sheats Jr., But as soon, you know what, again, it's fun to rotate these things out of here and rotate new pins inside. So, again, Deadpool's pretty fun. But let's get to the news. You ready? We can. What do you got? You got something else in your mind? Well, I was going to say we got a Hobbit, which was pretty cool, too. Yeah, so. And the music on the Hobbit's pretty wicked when you just, you know.
    11:09
    You've been looking for a Hobbit for a while. Right now you're in possession of a Hobbit. Yeah. I've not played the new code updates on Hobbit, and I'm not sure that you played the old code update enough to understand the significance of the newer code update. A haven't even, you know, as Terry would say, haven't dug an inch Kent. I haven't dug an inch. You know just played- I probably got 10 games on it. Just beacuase it's been kind of crazy couple weeks in all honesty. Yeah I mean the game is cool, I really like it. And it's a hobbit smug. I had a smug edition. You had the custom one though. What do you mean? Well the custom smug edition with the one that does smoke effects. Oh yeah, when I thought he was smoking under the back glass it turned out my motor was going bad. Yeah, you're like, this thing's douche. Yeah, I was like, wow, I didn't know smog smokes in the game underneath the glass. That's pretty cool. That was not in the, uh, that was not coded to do that. That was not a feature. That was a Jersey Jack repair that I had to get done. So thanks to Jersey Jack for that replacement. Which they're all used cars. You're all, you're gonna have problems with, you know, brand new stuff, whatever switches, but. But you know, it was taken care of. It was addressed. So thank you, uh, Jersey Jack for taking care of my smoking smog. Nice On Hobbit But uh enjoy it I want to see it and play it and experience a new code update because at this point I think you can still find these in the to range and when you think about everything that's kind of out now, that's a pretty good value. That's a bargain pin. It is. For $6,500 and what you get. And you know who designed that, right? Balcer. Yeah, Balcer who just designed Oktoberfest. And speaking of Oktoberfest, as we get to the news. So we are still coming down off the high of Expo and playing Oktoberfest in its limited availability. It was fun. But this week there's been a little bit of controversy involving some of the artwork in Oktoberfest and specifically the backglass. Everyone is losing their minds over this it seems like. So for those of you that aren't familiar with what's going on, the backglass has a photo The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WILLY WANKA. All right, so we've seen the boy, Bill. You've seen the pictures, you've seen the back glass, we noticed this at Expo. Yeah. And we didn't really talk about it because we were taking it all in. There's so much going on in the art package that it's almost hidden, like you don't even notice that unless you're kind of really looking. Well, let's be honest, the state of mind that we were in when we were looking at this, we were... You pointed it out and we were in more relaxed, entertaining mood after a couple of beverages. Now that you've digested it and you've kind of had an opportunity to think about it, is it not a fan? Not a fan of the ass-grabbing monkey of American pinball? It reminds me of the monkey from Hangover 2. You know, the drug monkey that, you know, just a complete a-hole. That said, I guess it's personal preference, but, you know, I don't see that being very family-friendly. Okay, well, I'm glad you said that because that's where I was going to go with this. I mean, it seems like they had made such a conscious effort to make sure that the game wasn't going to be raunchy The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WILLY WANGAW, a.k.a. The Out Pinball Podcast. I mean, I think there could have been a little bit more of an Easter egg kind of deal in that, but... Almost everything in the artwork is an Easter egg because, again, you can't digest it all. You really have to look at it almost under like a magnifying glass and go every three square inches and kind of look to see what you're looking at. It's super, super busy. I'm still not sold on the art package on the playfield because there's so much going on. And I'm trying to get used to it, but again, I'm not playing the pin at this point. I'm just kind of looking at photos and looking at over and over and over again and I'm still like, man, it's just kind of a little bit too much. I would hope that they consider toning it down or making it a little bit more, I don't want to say simple because I like artwork that has complexity to it. But maybe a little less busy is what I'm going for. And again, this might grow on me after playing the game and just being able to appreciate what you're looking at. Well, and the hard part about that is too, I mean, here, it's not easy to say I like this, I don't like this. I mean, you really got to get it in your basement and put time on it and see how it grows on you. Exactly. I think Deadpool is growing on you quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if you saw that one twice without your speaking about it. Yeah, but I'm saying we've seen this in person. And this is something that I was kind of thinking about too. It seems so busy, the Playfield artwork on Oktoberfest. But it's like if you're at a festival, if you're at Oktoberfest, it is kind of busy and crowded. So I mean, maybe that's kind of part of the idea behind the artwork is that there's a The American Pinball Show, Knapp Arcade, Straight Down the Middle, Bally Williams, Straight We're happy to have a discussion. So... Classy move on their part to be open to changing it and, you know... Is it a classy move or is it kind of a weak move where they decided that they couldn't take the feedback from the user community and they just kind of folded? Does this open up an opportunity for other people to complain about other things that... People are going to complain regardless. Do they fold? People are going to complain regardless. Sure. You know, and here, there's people that aren't going to be happy with artwork or whatever. It doesn't matter. I mean, you're not going to please everyone here. So, you know, if they would have changed it because people said we don't like the artwork, then I would have said they're giving in. But changing it for a legitimate reason where there is kind of a family-friendly concern where you might not want to have it, it might impede your buying ability because of potentially what's on there, then yeah, I think it's, you know, the smart play. Would you have a problem owning an Oktoberfest with the original backglass with the monkey grabbing the butts? Composer, producer, producer, narrator and producer, I don't want to say overly sensitive because maybe I'm just overly numb to some of this stuff. But again, I think you hit it on the head. I mean, everything is going to affect people differently. Yeah, differently. So there's no right or wrong answer on this. It's just a matter of an opinion. And American Pinball took those opinions and made a decision in which they feel is the right decision to kind of correct that. So I tip my hat to them for doing that. So let me provoke this thought to you. So ACDC, Lucy, We both think that game is cool, but for fear of it being a little more on the risque side, we wouldn't have it in our homes because we wouldn't want our kids seeing it and being like, whoa. Well, you know what? I mean, that's kind of different, but the same. Like, for me, I don't know that anything is offensive so much in the artwork, but I mean, you've got, okay, so you have the girl on the side of the cabinet that's in kind of a compromising sexual position, you know? And scantily clad, but yeah. And scantily clad. But that being said, like, I own a Lucy Translight, you know, I asked Steve Ritchie and he signed it for me. I don't have it hanging yet because I don't have room, but I've got an ACDC I'm a fan of the pinball machine, but I don't have the girl in the kind of crazy, you know, on the knees, bent over position. Ca sessions can be purchased online via ebay I think the difference with that though too is that I specifically remember sitting down with Dennis Nordman and Greg Freres and I remember when it was brought up about potentially having a little bit of a risque thing going on with Melanie Melons. I remember Dennis said something to the effect was that, you know, he didn't see it as being anything sexual necessarily, but it was more so that, you know, Melanie was able to pick up these melons that came from her patch, so to speak, and hold them up and to get the workers that were there on that melon farm to do whatever she wanted. So that actually empowered her versus making her seem weak or, you know, subjected to sexual harassment. So it was more of like a power move. When you look at the Elvira backglass, I mean, she's showing cleavage and she's kind of in like a seductive pose. But again, Elvira, she's in control of that whole pinball machine. Like, she's hosting you.
    21:15
    It's all subjective. And you know what? Some people are going to be happy with stuff. Some people are going to get butthurt. You know, I mean, it's just kind of our nature this day and age where, you know, you kind of got to keep it PC because you don't want people, you know, Here, Pamela Anderson on the back of Baywatch. I hate to always go there, but people come down and be like, wow, can Pamela get any bigger in this? There's some crazy DMD scenes going on at Baywatch, too, that I noticed. I could never really figure out what was going on, but that's for another conversation. Yeah, yeah. You know, we... It's not that we get offended, it's just... I'm not offended. So this is the thing, where I'm not offended if I have people that, maybe neighbors or friends The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of Wally Winkel and the Center for Autism and Related Disorders, LLC. John Popadiuk, Automated Amusements, David Van Es, Raydaypin, David Van Es, Larry Elwood, The Eye of the Lion, Jack O'Neal, C. F. H. L. H. L. L. I want to do what I want, but I do care what other people think. Within reason. For sure. Because I want to be able to respect people. I don't want people to come downstairs. I don't want to offend anybody. Do I think that everybody tries a little too hard to be PC? Absolutely I do. But you know, pinball machine art, if you look at some of the older backglasses, there's a lot. That Captain Fantastic backglass, there's so many things going on in there, but they are more hidden like Easter eggs. And if you haven't really looked at that backglass, look at that backglass. I guess that's where I'm at, Bill. I'm glad American Pinball decided to change or make a change based on user feedback. I'm not disappointed. I think it probably was the right thing to do. If they hadn't made that change, would I have not had an Oktoberfest in my basement? No, I still would have had an Oktoberfest in my basement. Yeah, I don't think you and I would have cared on that. I think it just makes it a little more accepting to the community in general, you know, and they don't open themselves up to have any blowback at this point. And for those of you like, oh, they're weak, that's stupid, they lost my respect. All right, now you're being a little overly sensitive if you really think about it. So that's kind of the pot calling the kettle black. You know, at the end of the day, they got to make money selling these things. And if it's going to affect their sales, then it doesn't make sense to keep it in. You know, and if taking it out means that, you know, it keeps more people happy than unhappy, guess what? It's coming out. So it doesn't matter. You know, I mean, with how they're doing it, there's enough buffer time that they can actually do some of these items before they're making it where, Starn, they show you a game two weeks later or they're shipping it that week or two weeks later. They're on the line. They're not changing anything. That's a done deal, which is good and bad. Good because no one will ever know what was in there, whatever. Bad because you're really not going to change anything. But at that point, I think they've got enough people employed there that they could see potential issues like that. Sure. We also have the price point now on Oktoberfest that's coming in at $7,400. So there's a $400 increase over the Houdini pin that was released. What is your thought process or what are your thoughts in regards to a $400 price increase for Oktoberfest? I don think it the end of end all be all You know it more But you know once again it another balser design and I think he does good games So I don think it the end be You know it more But you know once again it another ball store design and I think he does good games So I don think the increase is too crazy What's the reason for the price increase, in your personal opinion? Because they make a lot of these. A lot of stuff is in-house at American Pinball, like LED light boards and whatnot.
    24:58
    I think I kind of have an idea what the bill of materials cost is. Do you think that the bill of materials cost has gone up on the second game, The Strongiğ's die madre This is a game that everyone loves, but if you're not making money, you can't afford to do it. I mean, that's what happened with Big Lebowski and everything, you know, all these other games. But the $7,400 puts you in a different price point where now you're being compared to, say, like a Stern premium, right? So that's exactly where I'm going with this. I think there's a few different ways you can look at it. I don't think it's terribly outrageous. It's not a $9,500 game. Could it be more competitive in the marketplace? Sure, but I think they all could be. Do you like the fact that they have one model and one model only? Or do you wish that they had tiers where maybe there was something that had lesser options at a more affordable price point? Or do you think $7,400 is kind of is what it is? I think that is what it is. I mean, you're getting a game that's more limited in production. So how many do you think they'll sell? Would you say more than a thousand? I'd like to hope so. Okay. You know. So, I think with them being a smaller manufacturer, they're not going to get the price points that other companies will because they're a smaller manufacturer. They're not ordering X, Y, and Z. They're not turning up the same number of games. Exactly. As like a Stern pinball would be. Correct. Okay. You know, and honestly, that $7,400 mark, I mean, that seems to be kind of a universal-ish kind of price point for a lot of the boutique manufacturers. I'm not saying that they're boutique. You know, they're definitely growing and trying to become more competitive in the marketplace. Right. Almost any manufacturer in comparison to like a Stern is, I mean, there's a drop off in production numbers for the most part. So I see where you're going with that. And I agree with you. You know, assuming that the game shoots well and it has at least the amount of appeal that Houdini did as far as like added parts of the playfield, mechs and toys, you know, $7,400 isn't anything outrageous. I think it can go head to head and compete at $7,400. I don't think they're going to lose sales over $400, I guess is what it comes down to. If you can pay $7,000 for a theme that you like, you'll pay $7,400 for a theme that you like. But then the question goes back to, is Oktoberfest something that you want to own? Is this a theme that you want to have? For me, yeah, I think it's a pretty fun theme. And if it's $7,000 or $7,400, if I'm in the market and I've got that money to spend, I'm not really thinking twice over $400 at that point. So yeah, I don't think $400 would break the bank on this. So it's, I mean, we'll see what happens. I think they're going to be starting production here in the next few months. We should start seeing pins in home, I would assume around the... Like January, February? Yeah, first quarter of next year, I think is realistic. And it's to their best interest to have these machines out sooner than later. You don't want to be waiting too long. But we'll see what happens. And you know, hopefully, hopefully we have access to one here in the Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale studio because I'd love to talk about it. I'd love to stream the machine and I'd like to get to know it better and I'd like for it to get to know me a little bit better on a personal level. Yeah. On a personal level. In other news, Bill. Lots of news. Pinside almost burned to the ground last week when the Beatles video was released, which was a teaser video that was posted on the Beatles store online kind of retail shop. Yeah. And it was a little teaser video that was a first glimpse of the artwork and of the gameplay. It was only like a minute long video or a minute and 12 seconds. Yes. It was nothing in depth. But it burned Pinside to the ground. Which is awesome. And for those of you that don't know what Pinside is, Pinside is an online forum group that discusses pinball. It's very popular and it's very polarizing because it's kind of all over the place. But I wanted to ask you this, Bill. So did you get a chance to see the video? I did. Okay. Watched it a few times. Did you have a first impression of the video when you first saw it? It's not a, your standard, like your Deadpool premium. It's not your typical Stern premium, right? Okay. It's based off of a more simplistic layout. Okay. Which is the Sea Witch re-theme. Yeah. With added.
    29:35
    Mechs and, you know, spring disc and the magnets in the back. With some additions. Yeah. For what it is and what they were trying to accomplish, I think it looks cool. I'm not necessarily a Beatles fan, so for me it would be a little bit harder sell for me. But I do think the game is cool and I think it's an interesting concept. But I don't think, you know, everyone's, you know, pissing, moaning and, you know, griping, what did they do, blah blah blah blah blah. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I don't, I don't see why everyone's getting so hurt over it. What did you think of the artwork on the Beatles? I think it's cool. I think that video didn't do it justice. I would agree. You know, when I think you and I both talked after we saw the video and we're like, you know, this artwork's looking a little funky with the colors and whatnot. It was more the colors, not the artwork, per se. Correct. lossy images of a billets it looks cool if i think it looks incredible uh... i love that our work on beetles celerity eens fan like i'd be proud to have that the state and i hope that we could talk about the price of the beetles it in a bit almost a device i think christopher fran chie really killed in on individuals i mean he went ahead he use kind of a uh... past they'll color palettes something that you would see that was probably popular time and it yes there is correct absolutely The pinball machine itself is time period correct. You know, you're not looking at ramps and crazy stuff with the exception of the LCD. And that's just something that's added now to any pinball machine. Yeah. You wouldn't throw, you know, the reel scoring in the back or something like that. Right. Unless it was on a digital, you know. Actually, that'd be, you know, a cool mode if they could do that, do a digital score reel on that thing. I think, you know, when you looked at the video, you heard like a lot of bells and chimes in the background, almost as if you were watching an EM being played. We know that there's going to be Beatles music in the pinball machine. So I thought that kind of listening to the bells and chimes for most didn't do the pin justice because it kind of set that old time EM feel, which is fine. I don't mind EMs, but for those that are looking for kind of a modern take on Beatles, I don't know that that was something that they appreciated. And then thirdly was the color saturation on the video. It looked overly vibrant. When I saw the more true HD photos of that play field and that artwork, I think it looks I'm your host, David Van Es, and I'll see you next time on Pinball Podcast. Heckler,�니다 earliest pinball titles, I'm wondering if Christopher Franchi's artwork was a little too sophisticated for some people to really grasp. And it's just like, when you hear something's coming out, you kind of have something in your mind, what you expect it to be. And when it's not, it can be a letdown. But I think if you really sit back and kind of consider what's happening and look at that, I think it's almost like it's a masterpiece of Beatles. Like, I'd be proud to own that machine if I was a big enough Beatles fan to purchase it. And that's what they were going after, I feel like. Because, I mean, okay, so we saw pictures of the cabinet today. Sorry to cut you off. No, you didn't cut me off. But I'm glad you're going this route because I wanted to talk about this. The lack of a coin door. Because they don't, this is not a game that's supposed to be on route. And I, you know, pinball people are probably burning to the ground. There's no coin door that's not pinball. This was not designed for your average pinball people. This was designed to open up doors to people that love the Beatles and a different type of collector. Here we are. We're going to show you some Office Mag Chips today. Thanks for joining. Welcome back to Office Mag Chips. I'm Levi. Thank you for your purchase and cooperation. And that's just how I feel. I could be completely wrong, but it doesn't seem like this game was marketed towards the typical pinball audience, similar to how Supreme was released. And guess what? Those games are still fetching big money. Right. You know, here, I'll say this. There's three playfields I'd love to have one day, besides the ones that I already collect. That would be a Supreme playfield, a Magic Row playfield. Why do you want a Supreme playfield? I think it would just be cool to have. Okay. For more information, visit www.flippinball.com, or call 1-800-322-3213. I think it's a great looking playfield. I think that whole art package is very, very, very nice. And I don't say that about a whole lot of playfields. No, I agree. You've got, I know Ghostbusters was a playfield that you wanted. Yep. Zombie Yeti artwork. Magic Girl, Zombie Yeti. Yep. And then you've got Christopher Franchi on Beatles. And then I don't really know who did the Supreme artwork. Yeah, I don't, not sure. It wasn't overly complicated art package. It's not because of the art. It's just because of what it is. It was branding. Yeah. Now, as we get into price, and I want to give credit to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. Kaneda reported what he feels are the final prices on these pins on his most recent podcast, and I just wanted to cover this with you. Again, speculation. We don't know this for sure. I did reach out to Zach Sharp today, just asking if he had any information that he could pass along regarding price or release dates, that sort of thing. Very nice getting back to me quickly. He's like, hey, listen, there's nothing I can share right now, but as soon as we have We're going to pass it over to you guys. So that was cool. Thank you, Zach. Speculation on prices though, according to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast is that distributors are going to be able to purchase these in lots of 10 pins. And the lots of 10 pins cost each distributor $70,000. And for the $70,000 price point of the 10 pins, you get, it looks like seven golds, two platinums and one diamond. The gold editions are to be priced at $7,600. And then at that point, the two platinums and the remaining diamond edition, it's up to each distributor to price those as they see fit. So you can price platinum at five bucks or at $10,000. You can do a diamond at 20 bucks or $50,000. So the incentive is to buy these in blocks of 10 and then the distributor has their ability We been thinking about it for years but I wasn sure if that would be a good idea for us Interesting because now we don have an MSRP for two of the top tier pins Will this cause price wars between the distributors to get the lowest price Will they combine to kind of force appreciate the price of these pins? Or do you get an opportunity as a distributor to say, hey, you know what, I've got a guy that bought the last nine or ten new boxes from me. I'm just going to hook this guy up on the side. I'm not even going to put this for sale in the general public. So you hope happens, you know, especially when you have loyal customers. I don't want to see... But the money is there man. And as a distributor you're probably not getting rich selling pinball machines only. Yeah. Unless you're moving tremendous volumes. So this is an opportunity for a distributor to... I don't want to say cash grab because I respect what these guys do, but this is a chance for you to kind of pop on a pin. Market it up and actually make some serious money without having to move a lot of machines and do it. For sure. What if these Diamond editions start going for $30,000? I was going to say that. You know, it'd be crazy. I would kind of hate to see that. But, you know, at the same point, if you got the money and you appreciate what it is, cool. I wouldn't hate to see it because I'm not in the market for a Beatles. I'm just not.
    38:12
    No, but if somebody sells one for $50,000, all the power to you. If you sell it for $30,000, great. If you sell it for $7,600 because you're taking care of your best customers, great for you. Great for you, too. Yeah. I just find it interesting that normally it seems that Stern kind of has control over the bottom line price on all of their pinball machines. And to give the distributors a little bit of liberty as a reward or a benefit... An incentive. An incentive for purchasing a block of 10 at $70,000. And again, this is all speculation, so our apologies if we're way off. Happy to revisit this when we do know the true pricing. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. We're going to get a pinball machine from us at $70,000 and we're going to give you this, this, and then you set your own LE price. I mean, that'd be kind of interesting. Although I don't think, I think because this is a special limited edition game, was it 1964 pins are going to come out. Yeah. It definitely adds a little bit more collectability and the ability to potentially force appreciate pinball machines with the Beatles theme. I guess that's all I had to say. Get the price point of $30,000. The only thing that I don't like when that kind of happens is it takes the potential for somebody that truly loves a theme and more or less takes it right out. I get that too. So, and I was thinking about this, like if I'm a huge Beatles fan and I've been, say I've been collecting for 20 or 30 years or say I've been collecting and I got the bug two or three years ago. Yeah. And my dream machine is like a Beatles and I really am waiting for a Beatles. And then the machine comes out, it's a Sea Witch re-theme and it's priced outside of my price point. This is why I like that the gold edition is 7,600 bucks because that's not terribly expensive in comparison to what's being sold. I think where the problem is or where people have to make a decision is do they want an Upgraded Sea Witch that's rethemed with some modern day electronics and mechs. Is it worth the $7,600? But I mean, if you're a Beatles fan and that's your grail dream theme, you're going to have to get on one. You're going to have to make the decision. It's not $30,000 for you to get one. You get one for $7,600 and potentially less after these gold editions start selling. It's not completely priced out of the... But I'm going to not disagree, but it'll be interesting to see what happens We'll be right back. The Win Out There, you know, whatever. Let's say none go to Europe. Let's just say they all stay in the United States. Or is that part of your argument? Because most of Europe and, you know, everywhere else in the free world takes half the games, basically. I mean, that's kind of how it always goes. But now these distributors have to jockey for position to spend $70,000 to get these pinball machines. Again, if the speculation that was reported is correct. Okay. But, you know, let's just take that out for a second. Okay, so you have your, what'd I say, 807 that are going to stay in the states, 807 that are going to leave. So, the only other game that I can think of that's as limited as that right now is the Supremes that came out not too long ago. Yep. You can get a Batman, right?
    42:13
    The Premium. Yeah, the Premiums. Which is, you know, a never-ending run. Under 10, right? Yeah. In the Sevens. Yeah, and I say never-ending run, but I mean, they're still in production, so you can still get a brand new game that was made, you know, whenever. The only other games that I can think of that are that limited, and please correct us if we're wrong, is Transformers. You know, they only made 1,500 Transformers in total. And I hate to use that argument, and I'm not trying to say, hey, you know, drive up the price on Transformers, but they only made 750 Pros, right, which isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things. And then they kind of blew it up with 500 Combo LEs and then 125 and 125, you know, Autobot and Decepticon. What about WWE LE? Or the WWE machines? That might have Transformers beat. Touche, Ken. Ah! Touche. I could see the value of those 807 in the States getting blown up through the roof. Yeah, I see where you're going. I think it's cool that Stern made the Gold Edition attainable for those that wanted to get a Beatles pin. If you don't want a Beatles pin, you know what? This may or may not be the only Beatles pin option that you're ever going to see in your lifetime. But if you want one, you don't have to sell your house and you don't have to get a second mortgage. isanwer.com
    44:02
    For more information, alar walsey.sanwal.com I think that would be really fun. Again, I appreciate what Stern is doing in general. They are making it attainable for those that don't want to spend the big money on the platinum and on the diamond edition. So I don't know what else you can say. That's it. Take it or leave it. Let's see what happens. This machine hasn't rolled out yet, and there we go. And have fun looking for the coin door. That's right. Hey, so I wanted to read something to you, Bill, because I think that this is funny. This came in from a listener of the show and his name is Justin. I found this email funny because a topic of conversation lately has kind of been your voice. People will, you've got a very pleasant radio podcast voice, but I want to read this email to you. Are you ready? Okay, but I'm going to disagree because I think we're both in the same boat. But whatever, however you feel, you're fine. Just like a true partner. Here we go. So Justin writes, and here it goes, he goes, I find it funny when you guys talking about I'm getting a better at a podcast. Right out of the gate, you're already the second most professional pinball podcast. Good luck beating out Jeff Teolas, lol. But yeah guys, keep up the great work, you both rock. Now this is where it's funny. He says, just gotta say that I've always pictured Bill as the guy from the Frontier Backglass, just with a 2x4 as a toothpick. That's awesome man. And he goes, Ken on the other hand, I thought was a 23 year old. I wish. Turns out I was wrong on both, lol. Rename this show to case by muffler recipe by Michael Mann. We're not sure what to do at this point. We're going to send him the can, and what he chooses to do with it is his business. Exactly, so we'll make sure that we put the can in your dishwasher next to your next wire harness that you throw in there. And we'll make sure that it's sterilized so that when it goes we're not transmitting germs or bacteria or anything. Dust, whatever. So 2 x 4 as a toothpick, bad boy Bill. Yeah, I like that. I can't say I've ever used a 2x4 as a toothpick, but I can say I was brushing with sawdust after building the cabinet this weekend. Yeah, you were. You know, because you're just covered in sawdust after, you know, routering and you're just like, get trying to, you know. Oh, it's good times. It's good times. So, you know what, we get emails and messages on occasion. I thought that one was pretty cool just because, again, it's people trying to figure out who Bill Webb... Now, you can see Bill Webb on our Facebook page, which is Special Winley Pinball Podcast on Facebook. Plenty of pictures of Bill. No reason to have to wonder what he looks like. For those of you that know what I look like, I am not 23. I am 43 years old. I appreciate the fact that I might sound like I'm 23 to somebody. That's why you can't judge a book by its cover and you can't judge a face by a podcast voice, I suppose. Yes. Can't chew on a 2x4. Well, you can. Well, you know. Right. You can try. Picking the teeth. Good dental work. It was fun. Justin, thanks for emailing in. Yes. Shout out. This was definitely entertaining. It definitely brightened our weekend. It did brighten the weekend. We needed it after our Expo Recovery week, but here we go. So hey, this was episode number 20 of the Special Win Lit Pinball Podcast. I want to thank everybody for listening and if you want to reach out to the show, please consider doing so at SpecialWinLitPinballPodcast at gmail.com or you know what? Just message us on Facebook, SpecialWinLitPinballPodcast. Feel free to give us a like on that page or at the very least, stop in and say hello. We've got a growing community over there and it's been super fun. Yeah. Oh, you know what, this week in pinball, I did like your, you know, guess the playfield image. Fan favorite of Bill's, but I won't release what it is for the people that actually have to figure it out. Oh, but for those that understand and have listened to our show, you kind of left a little hint for those that want to win the swag over there this week in pinball. I did, but I didn't, because I've talked about, you know, a lot of terrible games.
    48:28
    Is that terrible? I don't think it's terrible, but that's my opinion, and my opinion can be confused for crap if, you know, you don't like my opinion. Isso é você, Inés Ad WILLIAMS, isso é você, Thanks for listening to episode number 20 of the Special Win Lit Pinball Podcast. For Bill Webb, I'm Ken Cromwell. Thanks for 20 great episodes, guys. Thanks for listening and hopefully you're still enjoying. And on that note, you guys have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're at. And don't forget to take some time out of your day to play some pinball. So long, everybody.