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Ep 113: That Venom Has a Booty!

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·56m 39s·analyzed·Jul 21, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.039

TL;DR

Venom's innovative XP/RPG system impresses but confuses market; hosts worry messaging and risk-averse buyers threaten slow adoption.

Summary

Josh Roop and Matt Scott Larson discuss Stern's newly released Venom pinball machine, highlighting its innovative RPG-style progression system with character selection and state-change mechanics that reconfigure playfields based on host choice. While praising the artwork and unique design philosophy, they express concerns about lukewarm market reception, poor initial messaging, the game's departure from traditional pinball mechanics, and the risk it poses to buyers unfamiliar with its system. They speculate on production delays, Dwight Sullivan's code quality, and predict the game will require word-of-mouth momentum and hands-on experience at Pinball Expo to succeed.

Key Claims

  • Venom was delayed/pushed back a year from original release plan, possibly due to licensing issues involving Todd McFarlane or Ozzy Osbourne

    medium confidence · Josh Roop speculates on reasons for Venom's one-year delay, noting Todd McFarlane appeared at booth last year and theorizing licensing complications

  • Venom released at version 0.72 code despite year-long delay, which seems inconsistent with expected maturity level

    high confidence · Matt Scott Larson cites Sam Stern Insider podcast info about 0.72 release version and questions why it wasn't 1.72 given the delay

  • Venom's ruleset PDF is over 30 pages, indicating extensive rules complexity

    high confidence · Matt Scott Larson references 31-page PDF rule sheet as evidence of substantial rule development

  • Venom features an RPG progression system where players gain XP, level up characters (Eddie Brock, Hulk, Captain America, Wolverine), and unlock content tied to Insider Connected accounts

    high confidence · Both hosts discuss progression system in detail after listening to Sam Stern Insider podcast explanation by Dwight Sullivan

  • Premium and Limited Edition versions have state-change mechanics that reconfigure the playfield based on which host character is selected, effectively creating four different game layouts

    high confidence · Matt Scott Larson explains different shots and ball return paths depending on host selection, comparing to Godzilla's building mechanic

  • Pro version of Venom has static layout and lacks the mechanical doppelganger toy and state-change mech present in Premium/LE versions

    high confidence · Both hosts discuss Pro version limitations, describing it as resembling a 'home pinball version' without the doppelganger or fourth-shot mech

  • Venom has lukewarm market reception with distributors reporting slower-than-expected sellthrough on their allocations

    high confidence · Both hosts explicitly state lukewarm reception and distributors not moving allocations quickly as expected

Notable Quotes

  • “I don't think he's [Jeremy Packer] had a bad art package yet... he's really brought it with this one.”

    Matt Scott Larson @ ~3:30 — Praise for artwork despite ongoing debates about color palette; establishes that visual design quality is not the issue with lukewarm reception

  • “I just don't feel like this has been communicated properly. Like, they have not controlled their own message.”

    Matt Scott Larson @ ~10:15 — Core diagnosis of marketing failure; identifies root cause of confusion and lukewarm reception as poor messaging rather than design flaw

  • “This is brand new territory in pinball. I don't – this has never been done before.”

    Josh Roop @ ~20:00 — Recognition that RPG progression system represents genuine innovation in pinball game design; emphasizes uniqueness of approach

  • “So this is a huge risk in that they have completely deviated from what their historic titles are.”

    Matt Scott Larson @ ~21:30 — Articulates the fundamental strategic risk: departure from pinball tradition creates buyer hesitation despite technological capability

  • “I'm concerned that this won't have enough velocity for people to experience it because you at least need people who are willing to take a chance at buying this and letting people play it.”

    Josh Roop @ ~28:00 — Identifies critical adoption challenge: without early buyers willing to take risk, game cannot build momentum through word-of-mouth

  • “It's the same thing as a movie. Sometimes movies come out the big weekend, and then the second weekend, there's a huge drop-off... it's going to need a slow burn.”

    Josh Roop @ ~35:00 — Articulates theory that Venom requires sustained momentum over time rather than launch excitement; draws parallel to film industry dynamics

  • “Premium Edition or nothing at this point. If you want all the features, yeah.”

    Matt Scott Larson @ ~31:30 — Indicates Pro version is positioning itself as inferior product, effectively limiting market addressability and creating tension in product tiering

Entities

Josh RooppersonMatt Scott LarsonpersonVenomgameStern PinballcompanyDwight SullivanpersonJeremy PackerpersonZach Sharpeperson

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Venom officially released by Stern Pinball on Tuesday (late July); YouTube teaser leaked ~1 hour early on Monday via YouTube playlist

    high · Josh and Matt discuss Tuesday 10 AM official release and Monday leak of trailer put in playlist with unlisted status

  • ?

    product_strategy: Venom available in Pro (static layout, no doppelganger mech, no state-changes), Premium, and Limited Edition variants; Pro version positioned as significantly less feature-complete, creating effective 'Premium or nothing' market segmentation

    high · Extended discussion of Pro version limitations and hosts' assessment that feature gap justifies premium pricing despite $3,000+ difference

  • ?

    design_innovation: Venom's Premium/LE versions feature dynamic playfield reconfiguration based on host character selection, creating functionally four different game layouts from single cabinet; unprecedented in Stern catalog

    high · Matt Scott Larson explains different shots and ball paths per host, noting 'There's no other game they've done this on' except partial comparison to Godzilla building mechanic

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Venom implements online RPG progression mechanics (character leveling, XP tracking, account-based persistence via Insider Connected) representing departure from traditional pinball mode-based accessibility; intentional strategy to target younger demographic (20s-30s) familiar with video game progression

    high · Both hosts discuss RPG system in detail; Matt theorizes this is targeting video game-familiar demographic; hosts note this is 'brand new territory in pinball'

  • ~

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.170

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 113 i am josh roop with me my co-captain scott larson and scott it's been an amazing week hasn't it it's okay it's been ups and downs okay i'll take that i'll say that okay uh there's been a new release yeah if you haven't heard, maybe you're under a rock, but Venom has now released. And we're going to talk all about tonight. But if you want to order that Venom, where are you going to buy it from, Scott? I'd contact Zach and Nicole Mini. And they sold out of their LEs, but they were able to get some more. So if you're interested in an LE, last I checked, they seem to be able to finagle a few. So if you are looking to pick up that new Venom, and we're going to talk about Venom today. I'm a lot more interested than I was at the beginning I guess I'll put it that way So definitely contact Zach and Nicole At Flippin' Out Pinball Definitely if you want to get that Venom get a hold of them They've got other games as well they've got plenty in stock If you're ever curious to what they have We highly recommend going on their Facebook page Flippin' Out Pinball And they have a whole list there of games That they have in the inventory Willing and ready to ship to you So hit them up You know you want to Absolutely. Well, Scott, you kind of alluded to it during our little – us talking about flipping out. What have you thought of Venom so far?
1:33
Okay. Well – Do we start at the beginning with the teaser? I'm going to start – yeah, let's start with the teaser. Okay. So go ahead and give me your thoughts on the teaser. Okay. So first off, I wasn't really super excited for Venom. I think we've kind of already – like I was in the same boat as Godzilla, right? Like it's just – I know what it is. It's a sea theme. Yeah. It is. I would say that when the movie came out, it probably bumped it up to a B-theme. The Tom Hardy movie? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I thought it was fine. It was a fun one. I enjoyed the movie. Okay.
2:12
But it was still not mandatory viewing if you're into superhero movies. Okay. I agree. But this is not the Tom Hardy movie, but I don't think this would have been made without the Tom Hardy movie. I agree. I still think the theme's a little, like, not – I don't think it draws as many people at this point. And, you know, going back to the teaser, the art looks fantastic. Like, Zombie Yeti, I don't think he's had a bad art package yet, right? No. And he's really brought it with this one. I know a lot of complaints is he uses a lot of reds. Red. But Carnage is red. Yeah, but it was nice because it seemed like he leaned heavily on the blacks and blues with red to obviously highlight Carnage. Yeah. And who cares? I like red. My hat's red, so we're good. It doesn't bother me one bit. I think overall, I still was kind of like, well, now I'm getting a little intrigued, right? Okay. Vocals sound good. It all sounded really well in the teaser trailer. And so what shocked me is how long this game has been teased. Like, not even teased. Well, rumored. Rumored. It's only been rumored for years. Years. And so it kind of shocked me that, like, nothing had really leaked, you know? Right. Pushing it back another year and whatnot.

Stern messaging and marketing for Venom was poor; they failed to communicate the core RPG/progression system upfront

high confidence · Matt Scott Larson states 'they have not controlled their own message' and both note they had to discover the XP system via podcast rather than official marketing

  • Venom's gameplay is very fast due to ball dispensers positioned at 50-66% down playfield, creating rapid ball return similar to Shane Black Knight issues

    medium confidence · Matt Scott Larson compares ball speed to Shane Black Knight and notes dispensers lower on field than typical, speculating design consideration

  • Early gameplay shows severe balance issues with Mayhem Multiball mode, where one player scored $2 billion vs. $33 million next closest, indicating need for code tuning

    high confidence · Both hosts witnessed stream last night showing Eddie Brock character with multiplier exploit creating massive point disparity

  • “If you're like Jon Hey, I just want a game... the Stern 'AC/DC (Pro Vault Edition)' version of this looks a lot like a home pinball version.”

    Matt Scott Larson @ ~32:00 — Critical assessment that Pro tier lacks appeal even for casual buyers; suggests positioning problem in product line strategy

  • “I'm not sure what this is. And so they're evaluating it based on historical games.”

    Josh Roop @ ~25:30 — Explains buyer behavior: absence of category precedent forces evaluation against irrelevant comparisons, creating confusion

  • “The doppelganger toy... Someone gave that doppelganger some cake. What is up with the sculptor and that doppelganger?”

    Matt Scott Larson @ ~33:45 — Humorous but pointed criticism of playfield sculpture proportions; suggests execution details may distract from overall design quality

    • Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    Travis Murrayperson
    Theatre of Magicperson
    Todd McFarlaneperson
    Sam Sternperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Raymond Davidsonperson
    Game of Thronesgame
    Ghostbustersgame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Godzillagame
    Stranger Thingsgame
    Attack from Marsgame
    Bondgame
    Indiana Jonesgame
    Pinball Expoevent
    Insider Connectedtechnology
    Nicoleperson

    sentiment_shift: Matt Scott Larson explicitly states initial skepticism ('not really super excited') was converted to cautious optimism after deeper investigation via podcast and expert explanation; suggests messaging quality, not design quality, is the issue

    high · 'I was a lot more interested than I was at the beginning I guess I'll put it that way' and extended discussion of how initial confusion became enthusiasm after learning XP system

  • $

    market_signal: Lukewarm market reception with distributors reporting slower-than-expected sellthrough on allocations; comparison to Stranger Things model where initial poor reception was overcome by scarcity and word-of-mouth over time

    high · 'a lot of distributors, if you have the turndown allotment or the allotment that they do have, isn't moving as quickly as they thought' and discussion of risk that insufficient early adoption will prevent word-of-mouth momentum

  • ?

    content_signal: Stern's official marketing failed to communicate core RPG/progression system; hosts had to discover game mechanics via Sam Stern Insider podcast rather than official reveal materials; indicates strategic messaging breakdown

    high · Matt: 'I just don't feel like this has been communicated properly. Like, they have not controlled their own message' and both noting they understood game only after podcast explanation

  • ?

    code_update: Early gameplay shows severe scoring balance problems; Mayhem Multiball with Eddie Brock achieved $2 billion vs $33 million next closest, indicating multiplier exploit; pattern consistent with Dwight Sullivan's post-launch iteration cycle

    high · Both hosts witnessed stream showing massive point disparity in Mayhem Multiball; Dwight explaining backdoor mechanics and multipliers creating exploitable scoring

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Venom production schedule: Pro version end of August, Premium/LE in September; facility move consuming ~2 weeks in August; production delayed from original ~Comic Con timeline to late summer 2024

    high · Josh explains 'production schedule doesn't actually start until September... August is going to take most of the time moving into the new factory... then Premium Edition and James Camerons Avatar (Limited Edition) in September'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Expo (late October) positioned as critical inflection point; hosts theorize hands-on experience at major venue will shift community perception from confusion to enthusiasm, similar to Stranger Things trajectory

    medium · Josh: 'I think people are gonna get their hands on this at Pinball Expo and realize like, this is really good' and extended discussion of word-of-mouth needing venue velocity

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Venom's layout is extremely fast-playing due to ball dispensers positioned lower on field (50-66% down) than typical; compared to Shane Black Knight issues; speed may be intentional design choice to balance family layout accessibility with engagement

    medium · Extended discussion of ramp speeds and dispenser positioning; Matt speculates 'I wonder if they considered that. Because why else would you design these dispensers on the right and left?'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Venom was delayed ~1 year from original Comic Con release plan; Todd McFarlane and Ozzy Osbourne appeared at booth last year suggesting original design scope; hosts speculate licensing complications led to redesign removing original celebrity endorsements

    medium · Josh notes Todd McFarlane appearing at booth last year but absent from final game, and mysterious Ozzy Osbourne connection; theorizes 'licensing issues or something like that' forced redesign

    • 3:40
    And even... What took its place? Let's talk about that. What took its place was Bond, I think. Yeah.
    3:48
    So. And Bond, I'm hearing – I do know someone that got a Bond, and they're actually really enjoying it. It's one of their favorite games in their collection right now because of the new code update that's really fleshed out the game. And I predicted that. I predicted if you're a Bond fan, if you're willing to wait it out, then they would be able to fill it out because the layout I think is good. It's still not my favorite layout. I'm still not a huge fan of the left side with the scoop. Because when I'm playing it, it gets into that left scoop all the time. And then it shoots out and it's out of control. So the layout's okay. But with the new rules on board, it actually is a fun game. Like my friend picked up an LE. And we had a great time playing it the other day. Well, good. and i think i would tie this back to venom yeah oh no but i'm curious like why do you think that it was pushed for a year i i really don't know i'm speculating by the way no one has any idea but i it was obvious that they were planning on releasing it last year because they had a booth With Todd McFarlane. And by the way, I will correct myself because I thought that Todd McFarlane was a Spider-Man artist who ended up becoming very famous. Apparently, he did co-create Venom. So that's why Todd was there last year, I'm assuming, to anticipate the release. And the only thing I can possibly think of like Ozzy Osbourne being there is because there's an Osbourne in the character, I guess. Well, until VH1 does a behind the pinball machine, right? Yeah. I guess we'll never know until – we don't get the stories out of the guys except for like the old Bally Williams stuff we get information on because – Because it's 30 years old. Yeah, and the company doesn't exist anymore, so what's it going to hurt to release that information? Right. maybe this is all speculation maybe originally it did have todd mcfarland and ozzy osbourne in the game but they had to revamp because of licensing issues or something like that it is kind of bizarre and the other funny part to it so let's let's move past the teaser and finally monday stern puts out like a full week-long schedule right and uh you know releases on tuesday it finally releases and there's no ozzy osbourne as far as i can tell i don't know if todd's had any involvement in the game but the interesting part about this is when they released it at least when if you listen to the stern insider podcast they talked about it was at like 0.72 and that's releasing now which i thought was very strange because if we pushed it another year out and it was we don't know how ready it was for comic shouldn't it be 1.72 yeah and that's what we've kind of like been talking about yeah but after looking at dwight's on the game and yeah how many pages is the pdf for this the rule sheet you remember over 30 yeah it's like 31 pages of rules so i'm like okay well i'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt because yeah maybe they spent that time just solely putting in rules to this game yeah you know So what was your first thoughts when you saw that the trailer leaked like an hour early? Yeah. I guess it wasn't the trailer. Sorry, on Monday, they had accidentally put it into a playlist under YouTube.
    7:33
    It wasn't listed, but if you knew the link. Yeah, I didn't see it. You saw it because you sent it to me, and then when I clicked on it, they had already made it a private link. Yeah. So I didn't see it until it finally became public.
    7:52
    I don't know. And the artwork still looked great to me. It was reaffirming that it's still going to look great. What were your initial thoughts when Finally Tuesday hit and 10 o'clock hit and they released the game trailer? You know what? Not good.
    8:07
    To be blunt, I looked at the game and I eyeballed it. and I said, this, it looks like almost everything is in the back third of the game.
    8:21
    It felt very, very open. And my initial thoughts were it could be a P3 game. Do you remember you saying that? Yeah, because it looks like something that you could drop into a generic playfield that has flippers on it. and then they're starting to the mp3 where they're able to bring things down the side yeah uh so that was my initial thought and i was confused i guess gotcha what about you um i was confused uh it was what a minute long trailer i don't know if it was that long a little bit over yeah and by the end of it i was just i was so confused like it's funny because i went and posted on our Facebook. I shared the Stern stuff. And they put, like, they reused the Ferris wheel mech from Comet. Because that's what that ramp looked like. Yeah, the scoop and then the way it moves and everything. And the way that they presented it in that first trailer at first glance, I was like, yeah, that's what that is.
    9:32
    After watching the trailer numerous times, it's like, oh, that's not exactly what that is. yeah um and i still it wasn't till jack danger and brian eddie like we're playing the stream last night yep and explaining it and watching it actually like the game literally evolve as you're watching it i was like oh like this is like a chain like the full game is a change state game yes and so i guess i think the problem i've had with all this so far is i just don't feel like this has been communicated properly like they they have not controlled their own message correct and it's sad which is weird because i feel like it's the same like they did with bond as well like the the message was not clear on that one as well yeah and so with venom i just i wasn't super excited until i listened to the certain insider podcast and it was explained this whole game's based off of experience points. This is almost like a video game. This is a video game. Yeah. And it's set up like an RPG, an online RPG. Yeah. You're leveling up. There's four characters you can play as. You can level up each character. Yeah. Or maybe it's just yourself. This is all tied to your Insider Connected. So say you're playing this on a location. It goes with you when you leave. And then once you actually get to a certain part in the game, you can unlock Hulk, Captain America, and Wolverine, and have those unlocked for the rest of the game.
    11:10
    I'm sorry, keep going. No, you're good. It boggles my mind. I'm really impressed with what Dwight has come up with this.
    11:20
    This system. It's very unique. Well, I guess Ray Day and Dwight, they're both me. They should be pushing that. I don't understand why they're not pushing that. Can I get into some concerns? Yes, go for it. The concern I have is along the lines of we have always said we want something different. And Marty puts it as we want something different, but not that. And so that's typically our go to response when something different comes out. So does that mean is this going to be something that carries to the pinball audience? Because it is different.
    12:13
    This is not a system that we're used to in pinball. pinball yeah uh is that and also what happens if you have a location that does not activate the insider connected true so you're gonna have you're gonna have some issues with that and i would say the majority you're definitely catering to a crowd that's 30s and 20s yeah because they're used to there's going to be a lot more crossover in that demographic with video games than in the 40s 50s and 60s i agree and i i i haven't played those type of games in 15 years yeah so that's that's a different demographic if that's what they're going for then this could be a reach another question is was that planned what what was what plan what was it plan to say hey we are going to design a game that has a lot more in common with video games and online video games and if that was a planned strategic choice which i i hope it i hope it was i think it should be i think it is why why did they not push it at all we basically had to figure that out on our own why while watching the the reveal stream yeah well it helped it helped to you know it helps that we sat there and we talked to travis murray and joel in the birth and tom and travis gets paid to watch the stuff over and over well he's also a top player and so is tom and so they going to dissect things very quickly but travis is getting paid to dissect right yes that Up front And so he telling us this as we because I not going to lie if i wasn friends with travis at this point i don know if i still understand half of this yeah yeah and so they really should be pushing like save your progress and like level up your game and because they came out they came straight out and was like this isn't a mode-based game but it's got modes in it so it's like so it doesn't revolve around the modes it's an activation game You can activate a mode based on experience levels. So is that frustrating, though, to you? Like, is that frustrating that, like, you don't get everything up front? Because pinball has always been, like, everything is available so long as your skill level is able to activate it. Where this is, like, the longer you play, the easier the game can get. however he did say that if you're a they do have a speed run option in this yes and so there is a way of logging in and you know if you have the the skill set of raymond davidson i'm pretty sure you could get to level 50 in one game yeah i agree so that so that's not prohibitive but The question I have also is, is that advantageous that you are always crawling toward a higher level? Does it top out at like 50? Does it top out at 99? I think they said 50. Okay. So you top out at 50. Are there people who are going to – like video games, a lot of players of video games will say, I beat the game. And so they sell it and they never play it again. Yeah. well and it's not going to happen with something like this well that's what's crazy too like this this is definitely like new territory i don't know i don't know why they're not pushing this this is brand new territory in pinball i don't this has never been done before no and like you said let's say you do beat the game let's say you you own venom you beat the game you have it all saved to your account and you just and granted i think you can reset it they did talk about like you can reset your levels and stuff like that but let's say you sell the game and you like you keep it safe through your phone and whatnot i mean do you have the urge to buy it back and if not you could just go out on location and find it and just boom there's your there's right there's your progress yeah so it's there's so much there's so much unknowns to this and maybe we're just like super we're so overthinking what's going on right now okay but we've all bought games yes right Yeah. And so we're not naive to pinball. Yeah. We're used to what a game is. So this is a huge risk in that they have completely deviated from what their their historic titles are. Now they have more technology. Yes. So they so Insider Connected has definitely made this possible. And I I applaud them for trying something. Yeah, I agree. Will it be successful? That's yet to be determined. However, I would I would argue that the response has been so far either no, it's been lukewarm at best or or still fact finding. just questioning like trying to get more information about it but i don't know too many people that are jumping on this by now i agree with that that's what concerns me as well like why right this game okay let's talk about layout it's a family out yeah it's yeah well it's basically the ultimate fan layout yes like because the first two thirds really are a an open canvas it is way open yeah but the interesting part is because of those locks yeah pretty much holding the balls at half filled yeah you know it becomes ridiculously fast to play this game okay so that's actually what i was going to bring up i was going to bring it up you know how black knight One of the complaints was is that the shots were about halfway up the field. Yeah. It was basically like a mini game. And so it was brutal from the start. Yep. And that you were firing it and it was coming back at you so fast. Well, this is kind of a hybrid where the balls are coming back because you hit a ramp and it kicks a ball out a lot faster than you think it's going to. Yeah. And so you're getting the balls back, but you're not getting as much ricochet. I wonder if they considered that. Because why else would you design these dispensers on the right and left? And the right is even lower on the play field. The right looks like it's about 66% down on the play field. The left looks about 50% down. And I don't know if that's because they took into consideration it is a family out. yeah and so family outs are typically panned as like super easy which they're not wrong like right but well there's only seven shots really there's one two okay so i'm counting there's one two three on the left there's the ramp up the middle and then you have um so that's four then five six seven eight i guess there's eight targeted shots okay so yeah you see well i guess there's nine if you want to count the bell tart the bell tower yeah but still like overall the game watching it last night it moved really fast and made may that's great that the safe progression may that was a very knowledgeable thing because like well if this plays too long right then the safe progression system is not really going to be worth much then If you can do it all in the first run and you're a novice, there's a problem. Okay, so let's talk about the other issue. Not issue. The complete unknown on how people will receive this is that depending on which host you choose, it reconfigures the game. At least on the premium and LE one. Which is insanely cool to me. It's really cool. because you have different shots. There's no other game they've done this on. Well, okay. Now, there are games that we're used to having diverters on. Diverters? Well, okay, to be fair, that's kind of what this is. Yeah. It's basically a diverter that changes from ball to ball.
    21:11
    True, but I guess Godzilla is the only other one I can think of. So in Godzilla, obviously, if you hit the building enough, it drops down, and it changes the path of the balls going through the ramps. Which was the burgers, yeah. Correct. But this is, from the get-go, is technically four different games. It's four different layouts. It is, because the shots are the same, but the balls come back differently. Yeah, and really the only thing that stays the same is the orbits, I want to say. Because most of the ramps and even the middle shots and everything all change to some extent. and it's i don't know it's insanely cool like i don't i don't get why there's a lukewarm reception to this game well based off of your true hardcore pinball fan like it throwaway theme because obviously godzilla like i said godzilla godzilla was a c theme c theme i would i would put venom above godzilla at this point yes i would i don't are we just i mean look at movie theaters i guess superhero movies are not doing great right now is it because like is there just a whirlwind of stuff because i know that people do complain about dwight code i know people either love it or hate it but the problem is too sometimes you have to wait it takes a long time that that's my biggest concern with the white is that he is so passionate about it that it can take him a long time to really flesh out a code set. And even then, he has radically changed many code sets. Yes. I mean, Game of Thrones went through that. Ghostbusters. Ghostbusters went through that. And, you know, it's... I don't feel like Ninja Turtles did, but Ninja Turtles did take a balancing of the score as well. It did, yeah. And you can already tell that with Venom. Like, when we watched last night, what was it? It was like Mayhem Multiball. Yeah. If you start off as Eddie Brock, and I think maybe he even was more leveled up,
    23:15
    once you got into Mayhem Multi-Ball, it just destroyed the game. Like, $2 billion on one ball, and the next closest score was $33 million.
    23:24
    And he was telling us, like, oh, there's a backdoor to get into that, and it gives you, like, 2x. He was talking about the multipliers and everything. It's like, oh, great, so I can get my butt handed to me. yeah it's yeah that that that was unfortunate yes to see because you don't want to if you're going into a if you're playing for points you don't want to be beat because someone always knows an exploit that makes a 10 times multiplier happen i agree i i really hope like i love dwight and i really think that his code like his rules are very unique from what everyone else is doing right i i hope he's doing the rule set and raymond's doing the coding because the issue i had with ninja turtles yeah is is there was a lot of glitches and i don't know if that was specifically for dwight or whatnot but like i remember like i'd get into a multi-ball and the whole game would shut down if you did something and reset itself and i don't have that issue with any of my other games behind me i could be i i could be miss mistaken but i would bet that the the lead coders are more of the rule set designers and they have other people who are doing the code like writing the physical code because because there there's no need for there's you know there's no need for the master architect and even, you know, even Lyman wasn't when they were talking with Josh Sharp and they were talking about the cactus Canyon continued code. Uh, it was Lyman fleshing out all the rules. Yeah. He was coming up with the concept. He was coming up with the concepts. And again, that's pretty much what, what I'm assuming Dwight's doing. I could be completely wrong. So we, we, we've, we've touched on this a little bit and we've been so scattered brain, but it's, It's hard because there's so much information on this one. We both agree there has been a lukewarm reception. If you haven't heard, a lot of distributors, if you have the turndown allotment or the allotment that they do have isn't moving as quickly as they thought, why do you think there's such a lukewarm reception to this game?
    25:40
    I would attribute it to two things. One, the game is different. It is not your typical game. No, it's not. So there's this, I don't know what this is. And that's what people are saying. I'm not sure what this is. And so they're evaluating it based on historical games. So they're looking at this game and saying, huh, well, basically like you and I did. Well, it looks like there's eight shots and a fan layout. Okay, pretty art. but when you look at it and they actually have all these state changes that make it reconfigure it depending on which host you are it does make it a lot more interesting the question is, is that good?
    26:32
    so people know what they get with other games people just don't understand what they're getting with this game and it could be a huge hit what I'm concerned with is this could be another Stranger Things thing where we all know Stranger Things wasn't... It was a very lukewarm reception because it was basically a re-theme of Attack from Mars. Yeah. But guess what? Attack from Mars is a great game. And so they cut production short. Then people said, hey, wait, this is a great layout and it's a theme I like. And then they didn't have any more. Yeah, and that's one of the only games that's still commanding high dollar right now. Yeah, so I'm wondering... I'm concerned that this won't have enough velocity for people to experience it because you at least need people who are willing to take a chance at buying this and letting people play it.
    27:30
    I think also what's going to – it's hurting it and it's helping it. And the reason I say this is the production schedule doesn't actually start until September. That's fair. yeah so so we're at the end of july now and then august is pretty much going to take most of the time moving into the new factory like two weeks or whatever and then they're going to get the pros on the line at the end of august and then premiums and le's in september right but at the end of october we also have uh another expo right so and people can play it there and that that is the telltale sign of a game yeah is if people want to play it yeah add add an expo and people who know what they're doing yep I think people are gonna get their hands on this expo and realize like this is really good like the concepts are here It feels great Because family outs I don know many family outs where it like I shoot it and it doesn't feel great. Like, the shots could feel good. But, like, I guess the first one that comes to mind is Cern's Indiana Jones. It's a family out. And it shoots great. But the problem is it shoots too great. It's boring. It's a boring game. It becomes boring. Where this is so fast, I think that's going to eliminate that. I don't know. It's so mind-boggling to me because there are some really cool concepts in this game. I just – I don't want to pin the fault on anyone, right? But I'm just trying to like – Well, I'm trying to understand because they don't make these decisions in a bubble. Correct. I'm also slightly concerned that the pro version, it's a static layout. Yes, it is. so it's kind of premium or nothing well premium le or nothing at this point huh well if you want all the features yeah if you're like hey i just want a game but the i would say the the pro version of this looks a lot you know similar to like a i don't want to insult it but like a home pin version yeah there's there there there is no mech there's no um wow the doppelganger is gone and that means like a home edition of a stern right yeah yeah that's what i'm saying so you said home pin i thought oh i'm sorry sorry i i'm talking a home version of a pin so a home home use only or whatever yeah i get you what you're saying yeah i'm the pin series is what i mean yeah so but This one, obviously the mech that changes, it's the fourth shot over from the left. That's the big mech in the game.
    30:12
    So the two main things I see different is that mech and the doppelganger. Yeah. And you're not getting that on the Pro. Yeah. However, sometimes people like the Pro version better. I remember Game of Thrones. That wasn't that deep of a layout, but a lot of people preferred the fan layout without the upper play field. That's true as well. You brought up the doppelganger. We watched a video last night. As they say in Ray and the Last Dragon, that bug's got a booty. Oh. Oh, my goodness.
    30:47
    What is up with the sculptor and that doppelganger? It's certainly something. someone gave that doppelganger some cake wow yeah it's it looks interesting yeah it's like what the heck and again they would like pause the screen on the booty on the doppelganger yeah we won't tell you about the XP system but you should check out this booty on the doppelganger check out the sculpt I'm sorry yeah all right just i agree with you i think the chain state is one of the one i don't know i just i can't fathom buying the pro at this point because of that if you're going to choose one pay the pay the extra two to three thousand dollars get the premium yeah That's my take. Unless you want a more economical game that you put in your house. And by saying more economical, still the price of a used car. Yeah. So overall, what are your thoughts on Venom? My thoughts are I hope there is enough time that people are able to get to play it. And I hope there's enough people who are willing to take a risk on a game that is unknown so they can try it out. And because that's the only way this game is going to succeed is by word of mouth. It's the same thing as a movie. Sometimes movies, they come a lot of times. Movies come out the big weekend, and then the second weekend, there's a huge drop-off. There's like a 60% drop-off. And then it goes even lower and then goes even lower. So they make their money in the first two weeks. On movies that people go see it, and it may be a lower-budget movie, and people tell their friends, hey, this was really good. You should check it out. And so it has a lot more of a slow burn. That is the only way this is going to work because the first weekend out of the gate, it's not doing well. I agree. And I think this definitely, I agree with you. This is going to have to be a slow burn on this one. It's, I guess just time will tell. Right. And I have to – for me, if I'm selling a game – if I'm buying a game, I have to sell a game because I am out of space. Same. So many people are in that position. So when you're taking a risk, you're selling a game that you don't – that you know what you're getting, and then you're committing to buying a very expensive game that you don't know. Yeah. There's also a very real chance that when these are available, there is going to be announced another game. Yeah. And L1's up. Yeah, that's the hard part too. That's the hard part. That space behind me, Foo Fighters is going there on Monday. Right.
    34:15
    That's the thing. That's where we're at production-wise. is I usually get in on the second run, and by the time the second run rolls around, you're running into the next game that they're releasing. I mean, I'm literally the same week. Yeah. I'm within seven days of the release. Yeah. So I agree. I think it's just really weird. So that's the challenge, right? That's the challenge. I think I agree with you on it's harder to move games right now as well. It is. I don't know what's going on in your neck of the woods, but watching the Utah market, But games, Sterns that are six months old are selling for six grand. Like, it's not. And granted, I guess some of those are more used games that are for like, they're rentals. We need to remember, though, that that's how it's always been. Yeah.
    35:04
    So the COVID years, when people were buying games and then selling them later for $500 to $1,000 more than they paid for them. that's not normal no it's not and usually if you buy a game and you play it for a while and then you take a $500 to $1000 hit you're saying well okay at least I rented a game for 5 months 5 to 10 months and okay I played I paid $100 a month for the game so that's not unreasonable and that's more likely than what it was So I'm not too concerned about that. Okay. But it does make people question whether or not they should immediately buy a new game, though. Correct. And I agree. And I think it also comes down to that. Like you, you don't have much room left in your collection. So it's like, well, if I do see, let me say you wanted Venom, you would have to essentially start selling now. Right. and it's not because it's because you've got to have those couple of months to actually move the game. And just, I feel like we were so used to, you could post a game 48 hours later. That's like a long period at that time it would be sold and you would have it out before the end of the week. Now it's like, I, I would even give it, it used to be, I'd give it two weeks just to be safe. Cause if I knew a game was coming in, in two weeks, you know, and, and now it's like, you almost need two months. to move a game at a decent price. So I don't know. I just pulled up Pinside and looked at the for sale stuff. Okay. And this is the first page, okay? So you're getting promoted content. Even promoted content, new in box Godzilla, premium, $9,699.
    37:07
    Gotcha. You have Venom LE on there for the sticker price. You have dialed in at $8,000. And this is Jurassic Park Pro Firm 6500.
    37:23
    So I actually, I'm going to plug this right now because Ted Finley reached out to us via email. He just says he loves the podcast and he wanted to make us aware of his website, pinballprices.com. And we're speaking trends right now. And he actually has a pinball price trend tab that consolidates this information. And he does it actually kind of in eras. So electromechanical, early solid state. So let's take LCD. Based off of 2022 to 2023, we've seen a negative 6% decrease. so the average pinball machine was selling around 10 grand as of 2022 so i'm assuming this is taking account pros premiums and le's that's over 500 cells um and as of 2023 about half the cells so 265 but we're at 9 500 so you can you can tell that there's a decrease there there's uh same with stern dmd so this is 99 to 15 uh 2022 was about 7800 per game down to 7000 about a nine percent decrease it's very interesting like if you haven't checked out pinballprices.com you should go check it out because there's a lot of this cool stuff like even dmds like they're not dropping as bad it's it's two percent but it's still a drop from what we've been seeing Yeah. And so the interesting part is like alphanumeric solid state and electromechanical or the oils are really retaining percentage or slightly going up. But then again, like they're not making any more of them. They're not making any more. And, and really it's what, 500 bucks to a thousand for an EM. So it's not hard to really keep that maintained or push that a little higher. Right. So, but yeah, there is that. So thanks, Ted, for reaching out and letting us know that that price trends tab is pretty cool.
    39:24
    It'll be interesting to see where everything lands at the end of the year. Maybe we should come back around because, like I said, only about half the sales have been done, which makes sense because we're a little over half the year now.
    39:35
    But, yeah, it's pretty cool. Okay. So what's your take, though? Venom? Yeah. I'm so conflicted on this game because I want it to do well and I want them to be able to do more interesting things. Yeah. I'll tell you concerns about over-reliance on Insider Connected, though. Yeah. It's you're getting into a possibility of a DLC type thing where you have to go up and log into a machine and they're like, hey, if you want the extra packet to play this game fully, you have to pay another $30 on your personal account to activate it on a game on location. i i don't know if that's really gonna happen but so it's getting to the possibility that they could do that that brings up a different concept in my mind would you be opposed to because like obviously things are starting to trend down we don't know exactly where the market's going but it looks like it's going to be taking a dip for a little bit right like economy's hard yada yada um would you be opposed to if yes they went to dlc content but they lowered the prices of the pinball machine so essentially you're getting a cheaper pinball machine but if you want the full game you buy the dlc that's uh well that's the raw thrills um big buck hunter model correct where would you be opposed to that then i don't play enough to justify if it's like a monthly fee so there's two questions a i buy it and i buy a la carte and then i have no time limitations on it okay so like most video games like most video games right yeah if i buy mario kart i own mario kart and i bought the you know when the super mario movie came out and i bought the uh extra levels on mario kart okay yeah it was 20 bucks or something okay yeah um what i do will ease and pass yeah something so they slowly trickle out the dlc but you you automatically get it because you paid for it up front right yeah and so that's fine um would i have done that if they said hey you need to pay five bucks a month in perpetuity to play this yeah i i would say no i would not be interested in that because you are 100 eliminating casual gamers on that um i and to be fair i don't think pinball is as big on location with that model. Yeah So you would have to have a lot of things change for that to be a reasonable concern Yeah
    42:35
    I think those are all valid points. I'm going to revolve back to the question you asked me about five minutes ago of what do I think of Venom? I think the problem is there was a cluster of information. It wasn't the right information. they're not selling this properly i feel like i agree with you it's gonna be a slow burn i think this game looks cool as heck and like i really wish here's my problem and i don't know if everyone feels like this if you're in the same boat i don't have space well i guess i do have space but i don't have extra money and with the last couple pinball cells that have happened with me with it being really weird and and hard to get rid of and whatnot and i know ellen's next i would rather hold off on venom and see whatever ellen's coming out with next to say hey is that what i want versus venom because i would hate to buy venom the week of of ellen's next game being shown they're like venom's getting into your house and then we have to figure out, well, crap, what am I going to sell now? I've only got a couple months before I get L1's game in my house.
    43:51
    The problem is the window is just too small, I feel like, on owning, I guess, a game. I'm getting to the point where I don't want to move stuff either. Okay, I will push back a little bit, though. Okay. Because we typically buy things after the main people. The bottom line is we – Zach does sponsor us, and we certainly are able to buy games from him, but we want him to sell to you guys first. So if he has another customer, then it's – we're not jumping to the front of the line. we actually we defer and say no send it to those guys first we'll wait yeah so that may not be the situation for everybody it may be the situation for us but not for everybody correct but still like i just i would hate to get venom in my house and like for like a month or two later i'd have to get rid of it to get one's next game well and now you're saying that because we're assuming that Elwynn will come out with another great game. True. Well, and that's the other part, too, is like, I'm tired of moving pinball machines. I'm kind of to that point where it's like... Well, I'm still in a situation where I need to move five down and five up, and I've been saying that for six weeks. Yeah.
    45:14
    No, I get you. I think overall, like I said, I'm excited to see where this goes with Venom. Yes. I think it's a positive direction in the homeowner's camp, right? like we we still have this mentality of location which is great like there needs to be games on location because that is that's where you test drive and so um but i think this is more geared towards the homeowner and i'm excited for that i think outside of this game um i don't know they're all starting to trend towards like more depth but games that aren't wood choppy and i'm really starting to like i really appreciate that so overall i i just feel bad because like man this game is really cool this but i don't have any desire to buy it right now because i feel like i'm stuck in limbo i don't know if everyone else out there feels like that right i it's kind of a wait and see well i'm gonna i'm gonna be at expo in october yeah and actually i i feel bad i actually just figured out.
    46:17
    It lands on our fall break, and that's one of the premium time-offs that we can only let as a, you know, in my job, there's only so many people that can take the same time off, and it's the same time all the kids are out of school, so everybody wants it. So I am not available to go to Expo this year, which I'm totally bummed at. so I will have to you know kind of wait and likely play this at Texas yeah and by that time L1's should be out too yeah and I should be able to play a lot of games actually I still haven't played Foo Fighters yet I need to go down you need to come to my house I'll have it on Monday absolutely road trip to Dinosaur Land yeah because my birthday's on Tuesday so happy birthday to me happy birthday thanks well I think that pretty much covers it for Venom I want to hear what other people are thinking, though. So reach out. Let us know. Are you thinking of buying it? What are your thoughts? Are you, yes, I'm buying it, no, I'm not, I'm waiting to see?
    47:23
    Or is there a possibility, given more information, that you would be interested in buying this? That's my question is, what's your current state? and like the game having a phase change are you can are you open to purchasing it in the future given certain things i okay i i'm actually going to throw one more thing out that i okay this is the third fighting game yeah and we have fighting game in a row isn't yeah because Well, because we had Deadpool, and then we had Infinity Quest.
    48:03
    And so, like, the Marvel things is... Are we getting over it? Well, I'm wondering if it still has that same vibe. I mean, Godzilla's a fighting game. You take on... Yeah, and I guess they're kind of all on that level, but this feels very similar. The goals are, you are fighting this other superhero. Yeah. Yeah, true. Or supervillain or whatever. Yeah. Okay, anyway. Anyway, before we wrap this up, we did have a couple emails. Okay. Jeff S., he just wanted to say he enjoyed our most recent episode. He appreciates that sometimes the jokes go over my head.
    48:46
    And even though everyone has commented on the same topics, he enjoys our takes on them the most. But he just wanted, for my benefit, he's like, he just wanted me to really know that sometimes you tell a good joke. Like the last one on our last episode was Mike's first name was magic. And the problem was, I think the thing is, is I'm trying to think ahead in the episode and trying to line stuff up. So you're not listening. That's what you're saying. I'm sorry. I know. This is comedy gold here. It is. Apparently it is. We're getting emails about how the comedy, like it even says, let's see, that is great humor. I do not need to tell Scott. So this is really for Josh's benefit. Okay. But that's not my favorite. That's not my favorite review, by the way. Oh, well, we got another one from three, three week, this week in pinball, just a new three star review. Because we will, we will read them, by the way. If we get reviews, we'll read them. Hosts don't seem like fun.
    49:45
    We're a bit preachy. And we'd love to mention we don't drink alcohol. And, and when, and when give a chance. i'm reading this straight like if you can't if you can't type your thoughts correctly sorry can't have some games in their house because of children question mark weird you you're the parent and can make something off limits or play when the kids aren't around adam okay by the way adam i i appreciate you taking time to write this yeah i appreciate it because actually it does show something that you're actually listening and I'm totally fine with getting, uh, with getting an average review. If, if people are, uh, if we're not for everybody and that's, that's fine. Um, I will clarify that I, I don't care if people drink alcohol. I don't, it's, it's, uh, I guess it's along those lines of, Hey, not my thing, but do your thing. If that's, if that's what you're, you're doing when we're at pinball conventions. A lot of times we are the, the few sober ones. And this is not me on a higher moral ground. I'm just saying other people are imbibing and I hang out with them and it's totally fine. I totally let them do that. Uh, without any reservation. That's, that's their, uh, that's their choice. Uh, with regard to some games, there are some movies I don't want to watch too. And there are some games that I don't want to buy because the theme is not for me. And maybe I just don't want those things too. And so I'm not just putting it on my kids. My kids, what I'm willing to have my kids experience are also the same things that I want to experience too. And so like, hey, my friend has an amazing scared stiff that he restored. And it is a beautiful game. And I love playing it at his house. But it's still not something, even if I had my own apartment without any family. No young kids, no wife. I still probably wouldn't own it. And that's fine. I want everybody to find the themes that they like.
    51:53
    Well, you know what makes me laugh too, Scott? Yeah. You want the title. So I can't really reveal the information in the next email, but I can give you the title of the email. It just made me laugh. You ready for this? All right. Beers at Expo?
    52:09
    Yes. Hey, absolutely. You know what? I go to bars with people. I'm happy to. I'm happy to safely drive you home. Someone has invited us for drinks at a bar, which I'm not opposed to that.
    52:26
    Anywho. Oh, absolutely. There's more information, too. We'll talk about it later off the screen. But it's just funny because I was like, we have a gentleman going off about like, we're preachy about no alcohol. And then our next email is, do you want to have some beers at Expo? you're just getting basically a snapshot of josh and my home life yeah and i'm sure your home life is different than mine so yeah it's fine do you and i love drew and ian and i love the whole poor man's crew i don't fault them for it's a different life it's literally like the second they start like what you drinking yeah i love that i love that like check out poor man's that may be your jam yeah it really might be check it out adam you might love it so we still do retain our 5.0 rating, five out of five, on This Week in Pinball, even though we got a three-star. All right. It's okay. We're still good. Yeah. 42 reviews. You know the number 42. Anyhow. It's the answer to everything, obviously. When are we going to get a Hitchhiker Guide to the Galaxy pinball? Oh, man. Don't even tease me. George, make it happen. Yes. Why isn't George re-theming this? You know, you want some number one thing I've heard about. By the way, George Fisher, don't panic flip. Just check it out. check it out uh you know what's the one number one thing i've heard in all this venom talk doesn't matter i you know i've heard people say they loved it why i've heard people say they don't you know they don't like his rule sets i've heard i've heard yada yada yada the general consensus that everyone pretty much agrees upon at this point is this shouldn't have been venom that should have been a spider-man across the spider-verse uh a hundred percent now that's assuming that that license is available and um and also um economical yeah because that's a that that's a that's an a-list a-list license i saw people who watched the the latest uh the across the spider verse or whatever it's i i didn't see it um but i heard people posting i just saw this generations empire strikes back that's a big deal that is a big deal so i i do need to watch it it's on my list but i agree we got some cool stuff lined up uh sadly we can have some guests joining us tonight but you know what life is chaotic especially during the summertime so we will be having them on soon i think things are going to slow down for a little bit at least news wise i I mean, it is what it is.
    54:54
    Got anything else for us, Scott, before we head off? Okay, I want someone to go play Venom and give me feedback. I want to know someone who experienced it, and that is definitely going to be a lot more than me watching the reveal at Comic-Con. Yeah, if anyone's going down to San Diego Comic-Con, let us know how it is playing down there. because you only need a, you live in the San Diego area. You don't need a ticket to get in. The arcade is free. Like if you did not hear that, you can get in. It's just in the lobby. So go play. Yeah. And give us your thoughts. Yeah. If you want to get ahold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We are at Loser Kid Pinball on all of our socials. That's Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, and TikTok, even though I haven't done any videos because I'm not very good at that. I've got a face for podcast Hey, we are video If you want to watch us talk You can look at my books and you can look at Josh's games Exactly And there was even some fun little pictures I inserted into the episode last episode The Save the Cat episode Oh yeah The title of this one is going to be Bugs Got a Booty Alright Scott You send this off Dave, love you guys. Thanks for listening, and go and play pinball.
    56:31
    Choose your host. Change the game.