you're listening to the head-to-head people podcast find us on facebook email us at head Welcome to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 95 and my name's Martin and with me... Joe. I mean, you're using your first name so I figured it was just Joe. Yeah, correct. Sure. We'll work this out at some stage. How are you, Joe? Good, good. Stressful day, but I'm ready. I bet it's a stressful weekend. Well, I mean, as stressful as it is playing pinball all weekend, because we've both done... You've just been to pin golf. I've just been to the Southern Hemisphere Pinball Championships. I have had a lot of pinball in my life, and so have you. And there's a... I guess there's a lot of drama in pinball, Joe. I don't know whether you're aware of it. And, you know, it's interesting because you know we have these amazing weekends like so as i said i've just i've just been to the southern hemisphere pinball championship so it's it's about an hour out of the the cbd of sydney at a guy called lee's house he's a great guy and he's built a barn there's probably i don't know let's say 50 or 60 machines in this barn um there was a you know a flip frenzy a three strike a main Match Play, Bells and Chimes Classics Just this amazing weekend Of pinball Out in the outskirts of Sydney Around a campfire at night Talking pinball, enjoying pinball And beneath All of that There's just been this drama that's been going on Out in The world And there's even Sort of mini dramas I wouldn't even categorise it as a drama but just sort of feedback from last week about the whole Madonna pinball and Lady Gaga pinball and people were writing in, it was kind of a bit interesting, people were saying yeah I agree with Joe, they should it's like hang on by agreeing with Joe you're also agreeing with me because because this is what's interesting is that because I was saying oh you know they wouldn't make a pinball and they wouldn't make you know they wouldn't do madonna they wouldn't do lady gaga they wouldn't doesn't mean i don't want it right it's i actually want it but this is the whole point of a discussion right a discussion is about that oh fuck me yeah oh it's so it's so frustrating at the moment joe because people aren't actually having a discussion. What they're actually having is forcing their opinion with absolutely no ability to absorb any new information to form a new opinion. It's very difficult to watch a lot of the drama that's happening at the moment. And in fact, there was something that, and you know, we're talking about Franchi. We're talking about the charity that's now serving beer. What's another drama that we're talking about? Oh, let's see. What was the thing that happened in what was it, Northwest Pinball Show? Is that what that was? Yeah, there's that one there. With Nitro. With Nitro. Yeah, that's right. So there's all that stuff that happens. I'm sure there's more where we're forgetting that we're going to get more drama about. I know, and we're now going to get caught up in the drama because we don't want to talk about the drama, right? The point in all of this is the way social media is going at the moment, you can't take a side because as soon as you take a side, you're going to get crucified by the other side. So what's actually happening now is these blow-up of all these events where effectively somebody has done something bad, right? Let's just say, I'm not going to say which side it is, but let's just say someone has done something wrong and the only retribution that people want is a complete and utter destruction of their lives as a result of that. And if they do not get that, then there's just constant persecution, right? And I get it. Some of the stuff that's happened has been really bad. But there's just not a healthy debate or a discussion about these things. It's people just wanting to, I don't know, just completely state their opinion and not be able to move forward in any way. It's very difficult at the moment when I have weekends where I just meet these amazing people and all we do is we talk about pinball and people go, oh, you know, what are the pinball machines coming up? Surely you know. But that's kind of a fun discussion. But underneath it, there's all this shit as well. Joe, what's your thoughts? Nope, I 100% agree. We've lost the ability to communicate with each other healthily, I think, at this point. And it's just, it's this tribalism. It's this, I'm going to put my opinion out, and I'm only going to filter it to make sure that the only people who I interact with are the people who agree with me. And it's this echo chamber, and it's just, it's really bad. Because it's like, people will just be like, oh, well, this is what I think. And then they act as if that's the reality. And even if there's hard evidence of the opposite, they'll just yell fake news or just talk it down and just be like, yeah, well, that's not true and blah, blah, blah. And it's like I don't know how you move forward with people like that, that even though you have – I mean there's video, there's audio, there's evidence. And you still refuse to change your opinion. It's just those people. You've just got to walk away and go, cool, dude, if that's what you want to do, then sure. But I don't need to take part in this. A lot of the drama, it seems like it's getting worse and it's getting more and more. I think the Internet is definitely showing the worst versions of all of us. It's getting nasty. It's actually of all of us. We are human, so therefore we make mistakes. No, no, no, I'm not trying to defend the actions of people that are done. I'm just saying when we're actually on social media, even then we sort of make mistakes. We're humans, we're fallible, right? That's actually what happens. But an appreciation of that people don't always use exactly the right grammar doesn't mean their argument is flawed. You know what I mean? yeah but that's how they invalidate stuff we're just attacking each other guys we are actually attacking each other and whilst you are on your crusade and you think that you are you know you've got this justice that needs to be served that's great it's kind of in a way parallel to what i was saying last week about the whole rubbishing the the competitors with pinball it's like that's all great if you want to get your point across but at what cost and the cost is you're just making it less fun and justice does need to be served i get it let justice be served man not internet justice or facebook justice it's really it's really frustrating at the moment and yep i'm now going to get all this hate mail from oh well you know you should take a side no i'm not i don't fucking have to and last week i try i took both sides i actually took both sides last week when we're talking about the madonna lady gaga thing because i wanted it to be a healthy discussion of both sides and then i got accused of of the wrong side it's like you know i can't win no no one ever wins it's uh no winners here guys so people just need to realize in the end we're all gonna lose and it's gonna suck we're all gonna lose but but what we've also got to realize is that we are actually good people in a good hobby just trying to have some fun. So, let's have some fun again, guys. Yeah, we all have our flaws and everyone makes mistakes and if everyone wasn't allowed to make mistakes, there'd be none of us left. That's right. So, speaking of mistakes... Sorry. What? Ghostbusters. Um... Which one? I mean, which one do you want to pick from? Which mistake do I want to pick from? Yeah, I mean, everything except the R, right? Right. Okay. So, as a bit of a side note, just from the whole frangie thing, I just saw Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti), Zombie Yeti, sort of chimed in on what was happening on social media. And somebody wrote a comment back to Jeremy. And I just wanted to... I don't actually have the direct quote, but... Ghostbusters and Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti)'s art for Ghostbusters was a pivotal point in pinball, I believe, because it set the new standard for pinball art. That's my thoughts. What do you think? So that was what the person was saying? Yeah. I mean, that didn't come before, say, Metallica, right? No, it didn't. Metallica was the next generation. I just think Ghostbusters was just this whole, wow, you've just taken that to an even next level, and then people have tried to keep up to that. I don't know, it's almost like, oh god, I'm going to get fucking hate mail now as well about this. No, Metallica's the best. Well, Metallica's fucking awesome. They're both amazing. In fact, I do prefer Metallica, but there was something about the Ghostbusters art that was more of an evolution. I think Metallica was the revolution. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's also, I think the big thing is just the color is utilized in there, that it's a very deep, like, palette. So it pops more, I suppose, and the different styles. So, I mean, yeah, I can see that. But, I mean, yeah, I think Metallica really is the one that started it and made it possible or made it obvious of what, you know, pinball art could be. And then, you know, obviously it's just gotten much better continuing from there. And it's all been, you know, and I mean, all art is great in its own way and it's subjective and, you know, it's... Except for Stablos. Hey, the original artist that came up with that back when those movies came out, you know. So the reason why I'm talking about Ghostbusters is that this week and we don't know whether it's a hoax or not it probably is but somebody posted up a picture of the new 1.14 code for Ghostbusters so I, and it was pictures like apparently it was on the Stern website then it was down then somebody posted up a picture of their DMD with it being installed and then that was taken down and someone said, oh, that four looks like it's been, you know, doctored and... Yeah, it's so easy to Photoshop stuff nowadays. It's really hard to believe any of that stuff. What is real? Yeah, we're all in the Matrix. Yeah, we are. Except for Australia. You guys are just something else. Yeah, who knows where we are. So, Joe, because you obviously, you know, you've mentioned, you know, about the Ghostbusters code before. What my specific issues or what I would change would be. Yeah. And then, you know, again, just going back again, like I don't know whether you saw on Pinside because you don't go there, but, you know, you were accused of being a stern fanboy and were just rubbishing all the other companies. Oh, really? Yeah. No, I did not know that. Yeah. And I came in and defended you and said, neither of us have allegiances to any company. We will bag everyone. Did they realize I owned a Hobbit, right? And it was my first new in-box purchase. Yeah. So, anyway. So, all I want to say to you is, Ghostbusters code, if 1.14 came out, what would be... Here we go again. What I hope was in it. What would be in it that would stop you from going on a crusade on social media? Well, it doesn't matter because I wouldn't do that. But, I mean, of the things that I'm looking for in the code that I think need fixing, I think that the skill shot system needs to be redone, especially when it comes to how heavily it influences the game when it comes to mode starts. Because, as far as I'm concerned, if you miss your skill shot on Ghostbusters, there's no shittier feeling, because you know that you're so far behind the eight ball now, because now you have to live through hitting the ghost target. And then you've got to hope that Slimer actually... If you only had to hit that target once, you'd be okay. It's, you know, they could probably just fix it like that. Yeah, I mean, I think that the best thing they can do as far as the modes go is to take out that ghost target, period, and then just have it be Slimer. Because if, you know, take out that part, smelling ghosts, all that crap, and then you just say, okay, if you're outside of a mode, Slimer comes down, you hit Slimer X amount of times, a mode starts. And it's always maybe the first one, it's one hit, two hits, three hits, etc. Because there's nothing worse than messing up or not abusing the skill shot system to try and start a mode and then messing it up and then realizing that now you have to live through these multiple death shots. And let alone if you play a mode and you do poorly in it, and it times out, then you're just like, well, I'm super screwed now. And the odds of me doing well in this game greatly decrease because with all of the other actual physical flaws of the game, with the air balls and everything else, hitting that ghost target is super bad for you. And it's right next to the captive ball of hit me too much and I'll make sure you lose the ball. So with those stupid pop-up targets that will just stay there forever and then you hit them and then sometimes they don't go down and then you'll hit one and then you won't hit the other one so the other one will come back up and it's like, god damn it. It's so frustrating. So I would try and make the modes easier to start. I would just use Slimer. I would get rid of the ghost target, change the ghost target. Just make it like every time you hit it, you get a ghost. you know or you know something or a ghost hurry up do it like in Game of Thrones like with the wildfire hurry up maybe it starts a mode there it starts strobing you hit it and it's worth X amount of ghosts and then the more you hit it that's worth less or whatever and then like punishing people for hitting it for missing and accidentally hitting the captive ball and bringing up the Scolari brothers is like super mean Like, I mean, it's mean for us because, you know, in a competitive environment, like, it's really, you know, bad for us when it comes to making shots. But, I mean, if you think of that as a casual player, right, because you're going to hit that captive ball probably 80% of the shots you take maybe. So, I mean, those things are going to be up forever, and you're just going to be hitting them and losing the ball and getting air balls and doing all sorts of shit. I cannot imagine that that is fun. and then your reward for it is oh you got them both down congratulations here have a super jackpot that's a million dollars I know I know it's just so worth it yeah and it's just like oh book stacking like you can't come up with something else or maybe I don't know if those are powered so that they can be brought down as well make them time make them only be up there for a certain amount and certainly make them more than what two shots three shots two shots of the captive ball like ugh brutal so I also because there's no I reckon you could add a Slimer multiball to this right just independent of everything else and it's so rather than like I think yeah the ghost target add ghosts but also you know actually have it a bit of a because it's got a hurry up as well but just you know let's say you kill five Slimers that starts Slimer multiball you know it's there's stuff you could do there's stuff you're talking about or maybe put that on the capitol or something Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Yes. Yes. But let's not forget the things that are really frustrating about Ghostbusters. The code is frustrating, but what's more frustrating is the lower quarter of the playfield, being the flippers and the outlanes where, well, the inlanes that pop over and go to the outlane, right? So that whole section is so flawed. The flipper gap, the flop flippers, it is just brutal down there. So things like the shot to the captive ball, yes, do it when you've got your ball saved because, you know, obviously you want to light your locks the first time. But every other shot there is just putting you into danger of a machine that's just got so much danger down the bottom. And then you've got this rule set that's so frustrating. it's one of those things where it just, it's not bringing people joy because there's such it's in the balance of not fun really, overall yeah, I mean there's a difference between like a hard game and then like a game just being a dick for the sake of being a dick and of all the things you mentioned like the flipper gap is the least thing I have an issue with, like that's a known commodity, like that's just Okay, sure. I know that if it's coming in that area, I have to make a move, etc. But when you have balls hopping the rails, and you have air balls coming off of the stupid drop targets, and you hit various air balls flying off of hitting the stand-ups, even on either side of the ramp, when there's so much air balls and unfair stuff, my issue is with the stuff that I deem unfair. Like it's just – it's like you're losing the ball for doing something that should not lose you the ball. Where now they have the protective plastics that can go over, which raise the height so you don't get as much air balls, which also come with a possible center post, which I think is ridiculous and shouldn't be there, and all this stuff. And you have, like you mentioned, rules. Like that captive ball on the left, like 1A, I never shoot it because you're – from the pop pumpers, they're going to give you multiball. Like, you're just going to get multiball for the pop bumpers if it's up there long enough. So you don't have to worry about that, which I think is silly to begin with. But then also, after you get the multiball, as far as I know, there seems to be no path to a second multiball in the game, period. Like, outside of random awards, because it's never lit there. And then also, it'll do this stupid thing where it's, like, blinking for multipliers. And you can hit that 17 times in a row, and it will not give you those multipliers. And I have no idea why that is. I don't know if the mech is broken or whatever, but every Ghostbusters I have played on, I've never seen the multipliers lit by hitting that captive ball. I've seen it via the skill shot or a random award. But whenever that thing says, hit me and I'll give you multipliers, it's lying. It just doesn't. And even people who own Ghostbusters have told me that they don't know why. They can't do that either. So it's like, I don't know if there's a flaw in the mech or in the code. I don't know, but, like, you give me a really dangerous shot, and then you lie to me about, oh, hit this thing, and you'll get this thing, and you don't. It's, like, cool, because every time you hit that, it's flying back down, and then it's hitting the middle divider, and who knows where that ball's going now, you know? And, like, that's the one game where I feel that every single part of the premium is worse. Really? Think about it. Okay, so I'm going to... I'll tell you the only thing I think that's better. It is much easier to backhand the left ramp on a premium than it is on the pro. True, but forehanding it means you hit the back of the game. Sure. So it turns into a giant jump ramp. So, like, let's see, like, for the other things they add. They add locks, physical locks. Oh, hooray. So you lock a ball and your reward is have fun in the pop bumpers with no ball safe cool. That's great That's exactly what I want. I hit a lock and now I'm probably not gonna see the ball again because Massive flipper flipper the gap etc blah blah blah so the odds of getting control of that again So that what that I don like the fact that the the moving Slimer Oh cool It goes to where it is in the Pro and then it moves above the Captable where you can hit it Oh, and then above the plastic on the left where you can't hit it. Cool. Fun. How is that fun? Like, at all. Or it'll pick itself up and then come back down. It's like, as if you're not hard enough to hit anymore, now I go to shoot you and you just leave. But he's the thing. That's so cool. Here's the thing, though. Who's complaining about Ghostbusters? It's really tournament players that are complaining about it, right? Well, and the people who own it who feel that their code is not what they deserve. Yeah, but they're feeling that because everyone's telling them that their code's not complete. Most people would be happy with it. The reason why I'm sort of saying that is that people still can blow this game up, right? They can still get massive scores. they can still have some fun. It's the mechanical side of it that's really quite flawed. If you then add flawed code to it, you've got a massively flawed game. So my question is, do you think code will actually salvage this game? Will it do a Walking Dead? No. Not to the Walking Dead level. I'm saying not to that level, but what I'm saying is, everyone was saying that... get better. Walking Dead was a terrible game and they hated it and it was brutal. Remember the people were just saying it was brutal and it was unfair and it just wasn't fun. All of a sudden the code changed and, oh yeah, this is fun. Can you make Ghostbusters fun is what I'm asking. Through code. Yeah, I mean, with Walking Dead I think the unfun things is because people didn't realize that if the game wasn't properly set up it would drain a lot from the bumpers, which now if it's set up properly, it doesn't do that so then you get rid of that and all of a sudden it's not that bad. But I think with Ghostbusters, I think that if you get rewarded properly for the events in the game that you've achieved and it makes you feel good instead of constantly making you feel like ass, then I think that it will be more rewarding to play and you'll look past some of the physical flaws of the game because of that. And I think that it could go a long way with smoothing that out and making the game a little more accessible and fixing some of the huge balance scoring problems in the game. Like, it's kind of ridiculous that if you play through the entire left, any of the rows of modes except for the right one, if you play through that and you get kicked their ass, that your score will not be anywhere close to if you just play PKEY or PKIY, you know, well. Like, you can get billions of points within that singular mode, which is just started by getting, you know, 60 or 50 ghosts and a skill shot. like, you can just get ridiculous points from that versus all of this work you do over here doing the things that are the main part of the game that you don't get anywhere close to the rewards for. You know, like, the main multiball is worth nothing for the most part. And its main purpose is just giving you ghosts so then hopefully you can get something in the middle that's worth it. You know, whereas if you play, like, the right, and you get into, you know, I don't play that way, that side, but I know I've heard that if you get into Marshmallow Man, that there's ridiculously imbalanced scoring within that mode compared to everything else. So it's like you can't have moments within the game that completely invalidate the rest of the journey. Or if you happen to just pick and play in a different part of the game that's supposed to be equally as good. And all that does is just make people feel crappy when they're victims of these moments, or they just get punished and it just beats people down where they just go, you know what, I don't like this. So I think if they fix some of that stuff, I think over time people will have better – I mean, there's still tons of huge Ghostbusters fans out there. I mean, on free play, I like playing it. I don't like paying to play it and competition because it's too freaking mean and my dollar can be gone in a matter of a minute. and it's just like, I'll play something else if nothing's available. But I mean, for fun and in someone's collection, I can see it being fun to play, but I think it is the software side. It can round off all of the edges to make it a much more enjoyable experience. Well, make it happen. I mean, that literally started with somebody posting up what could be a real or a fake image of 1.14 code, and that's the kind of conversation. And again, you know, over the weekend, by the campfire, Ghostbusters. You know, how long ago did it come out? It was like three years or something, right? So people are still talking about Ghostbusters. It is just still a talking point where there's just still a lot of dissatisfaction about this game. And I think it's just because people love the theme, love the art. Yeah, some people kind of love the layout. I actually really do like the layout. I think it's a bit clever. Obviously, I don't love the bottom quarter, but we just want it to be a great game. So make it happen, Stern. We look forward to your code coming out. And now that, I guess, Dwight's got 1.0 code for Monsters Out, maybe he's got time to really do that code. Who knows? Yeah, everyone has their white whale, and it seems to be a lot of people's main issue. It's like, there's a lot of other games that need it more, but it'll come in time. These people, when they put out new games, they only have so much time. And yes, monsters, people, and other games that he's been making are more important than fixing this game from three years ago that they're not even making anymore. Well, I'll tell you what was really funny, though, was, again, on the weekend, at the end of the tournament, I won't tell you how badly I went just yet. Spoiler alert. But after it was all done, and you just got to play any game that you wanted in this collection, and I started playing X-Men, which sort of came out before I really got back into pinball, so I really didn't get to play it that much. But remember, X-Men was one of those games where people were just screaming for it to have a code update, and then it got one. So what's the legacy of X-Men? When you play X-Men now, do you think about that period of time where you didn't have the code you wanted, or do you just look at it now and go, yeah, it's a great game, I'll have a game? Of course, you just think of its current state. I mean, yeah, I remember it being that way, but, you know. I don't remember. I remember the details around The Walking Dead being really unfair and not fun, but I don't feel that memory. I feel today's memory with all the joy that it brings me. Yeah, biggest thing I remember of that era is how much worse all the premiums were than the pros back then. Yeah. Like, X-Men, the pros superior. Transformers, the pros superior. Avengers, the pros superior. And it's like... Yeah. Yeah, this was an LE that I was playing on the weekend. And, yeah, you know, those pop-up things. The Iceman ramp. Well, yeah. So that should just be disabled in the code and sit there. I can't remember. I don't know if you're... Did you ever play it back when, like, original code existed on that thing-ish? Original-ish code? I did. Yes, I did. I played it before, obviously, the big revamp happened. But it was so early on that I don't remember the code that well. The big thing is that when you shot Iceman and it started the Iceman round, you'd hit it, it'd register the switch as it was going in and then it'd start moving the ramp. So by the time the ball made it down the ramp, guess where that ramp was aimed? It was right down the middle. Oh, right down the middle. You play Iceman, you die. Yep. 100%. It's just like, okay, sure. That bit I do remember. Yeah, and it still happens now. It's not as much but it tends to happen if you're in Sabretooth, which also messes with that ramp. It's just like, it's cool that this thing moves but could it just stay in one place until, like... This was disabled because I actually had quite a long game, and, yeah, the ramp didn't move, and I think that's because it was in tournament, so they didn't want to have that. Yeah, and that's the big thing. I mean, the pop-ups, who cares? Cool, that doesn't matter. It's just mainly that ramp that's annoying, and, like, you know, Avengers, it was the pop-up ramp that made Black Widow even harder to hit, you know, and the cross ramp that made getting multi-balls super easy, Transformers. They had that terrible right toy. The little stupid bouncing back thing. It was just like, ugh. Yeah. So, yeah. It is interesting that I don't know. I mean, hopefully they are going to get the LE to pro balance right one day. But, again, that's the thought that people are having with Black Knight. Obviously, the most recent Stern release is that people are saying that the pro's better. I think so by looking at it. I mean, I see there's two shots up there and one stand-up. I don't know a lot of ways to get up there. So if it's even remotely like Black Knight 2000, you didn't do much in the upper play field either. so it's like if unless you're hitting I played it last night and had a massively long game and it's random up there but you do keep it up there for quite a bit if you're good but there's you know there's a couple of things to do well there's four really there's four maybe five things to do you can either try and do your loop your skyway to you know rack up that and then get extra ball if it's turned on your war hurry up your multiplier knock down the targets to try and get your multiball you know there's there's some stuff there right that's yeah but I mean if you look at like the black 2k play field like you mentioned you got the war you have the upper lanes you have the lock and then you have the loop like the on the new one there's literally a loop that's right a stand up and a lock that's it there's no lanes and even the loop just kind of flops around the top and then bounces around up to your flipper. Like, it's not a clean feed to your flipper. Like, when I watched Keith play it, it was like, I don't know. I really like the pro. I don't know. I mean, who knows when someone here is going to get one of them, and I'll judge it when it happens, but I'm guessing it's not going to be as good because it's like, what are you doing up there? You're going to be up there for a long time, and it's just grinding multi-balls, and I don't know. But we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. So then... Oh, what a cool segue we've got now. So the next Stern, possibly, again, because we're trying to sort of speculate on the timing. So when did Black Knight get released or revealed? It was, you know, the week or the day, maybe even the second after Texas Pinball Festival in, I want to say March. Yeah, when it was announced. So long ago. So if they've announced that in March, are we due for another announcement? Or is the announcement from Elvira this week the announcement? Um, no. as far as I knew I had been told that this game was coming and from what I was told it was September which seems to line up September, October but yeah I think that like do you think that there's going to be an in-between game announcement? That's what I'm trying to work out because are we due one about now or is that going to be I mean they say that they have three main releases and then one or two vault thingies, right? Yeah, like three Cornerstone, maybe one Vault and one Boutique. No, they don't call it Boutique. They call it Contract Machine or something. I don't know what they call it. Yeah, which I think is going to be either it's going to be as far as the non- newish thing, I think that they're going to make a Sea Witch of Beatles but like $1,000 less and just to be non-Beatle licensed. I think that's going to happen at some point this year. But the fact, but the timing of this being in October, like that's in a weird place because it's like if they were going to do, you know, you'd think with three, it should be coming soonish and then you'd have one November, December. Yeah. Whereas this is in October. It's like, well, does that leave enough room to have one at the end of the year or do they put one in before? Because I know this has been done, or at least the playfield's been done for years. I know, and isn't that usually the time that they release a re-theme of O'Neilly? So I'm just trying to work out when they're going to be able to fit that into the schedule. Yeah, true. I mean, there's plenty of those. What do you think the next one's going to be? I don't know. Crocodile Hunter? Madonna, Lady Gaga? There you go. Yeah, you could do it, couldn't you? Well, you know what? Dunty. But that's probably what that model is. It's like, we've got this layout that we can just rehash. Let's test the market. It's less risky for them to go out with a title like that. Less build materials, less risk. No commodity and you can just risk in it. If it's a Primus machine, then it's not so risky. Yeah, and I think that you make one adjustment to that game and most importantly, you drop the price down to where it belongs as an EM, I think that that game would sell a lot. And I think that if you can just, if you add instead of, if you can add in an orbit that feeds the top lanes gameplay-wise, I think that it becomes a really good game, and if they could just get the price point down to below, like a little below a pro, even a pro, I mean, those things don't even cost as much, they cost more than a pro. Like, I don't think anyone's spending that kind of money on an EM. even if it's a new EM. But, I mean, if they could get it lower than that, then I think that that game would sell well. I think that's what we found out with Primus, and we had sort of mentioned this before on the podcast, in that I think Stern has been banking on exclusivity. You know, if it's a really limited run, therefore it's exclusive, therefore it's worth more dollars. And I think what we've sort of found is, and, you know, when we had George Gomez on the show, We were sort of talking about how they test new markets, and this is what they're saying. They want to be all things pinball, so they're testing these markets. But I think what we're now realizing is that the pinball community and the non-pinball community know value for money beyond theme and beyond exclusivity and beyond limited numbers. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah, because I think – because a lot of people say like, oh, Wonelly or any of the three of them, oh, they didn't sell because the game sucks. I don't think that that's the reason why that game didn't sell. I think that because if you say – if you take like the best EMs that have existed, you take your Grand Prix, your Hot Tip, whatever, and you release those today at the price of a Wonelly, that won't sell either. And then people aren't going to be like, well, that game – because that game sucks. No, it's the price point. no one wants to spend that kind of money on an EM when they can take the same play field or a similar thing and they can go buy it for $1,000. It's like, sure, people will pay more for a modernized version of something, but not that much more, especially when you can say, I could have a Wonelli or I could own a Deadpool or a Game of Thrones or any of these other games. It's like, that's where the problem lies, which I don't understand why those are at that point. I assume it's because that's the point they want to put it at, not because that's how much that game costs, unless it's just because the limited numbers is why it's so high. It just seems weird that that is the land it lives in. But I think if you lower that price, I think that those games sell a ton. Same thing if you release a new Stargazer, but you're going to charge eight grand for it. That ain't going to happen either. And we all know that Stargazer is a great game. But if it's in the right, you know, that's why Beatles, which everyone says is an amazing game. The only reason that it's not everywhere is the price. So, you know, you make a sea witch that's $1,000 left. All of a sudden, there's going to be a ton of those everywhere. Okay, so I'm going to call it, are you ready? I'm going to call it Adam's Family Syndrome or, you know, maybe the Adam's Family Effect. You're right? Okay, here we go. Go with me on this, Joe. So, Adam's Family, number one selling machine in the world, right? Is that the case? We're all agreed with that? Yep. So therefore, everybody who's everybody knows that game. It was in every pub, every club, every barcade, every arcade. Everybody knows Adam's Family, the pinball machine, right? Just even the most casual of casual people will go, Oh, yeah, I remember. Oh, my God. But when I, again, I referred to this on the podcast, when I went from Canada, A, down to Pittsburgh, when I drove and I went through customs and the guy at the customs booth said, you know, what are you doing in America? And I said, oh, you know, I'm going to replay FX. And he's like, oh, for pinball. And I went, yeah. And he goes, I love the Addams Family, right? Pinball machine. this is the guy at the toll booth I'm not sure, he may have actually been a pediatrist I doubt it everybody knows Adam's family now, if you look at Adam's family and what is in Adam's family there are ramps there are scoops there are multiple flippers there are magnets and there are rules, a decent rule set certainly for it's time if If you are going to be releasing a machine today that has less than what Adam's family had, do not charge more. Which is hard to do now considering how much those games go for now, which is pretty ridiculous. No, I know. But all I'm trying to explain is that that's what people's mainstream expectations. Like we as pinheads, right, forget us. Forget us because we will see through your bluff because we know everything about pinball, right? That's okay. Yeah, we're experts. We're experts. We went over this last year, last week. Right. We are experts, right? So we are not, no, sir, we are not going to spend an extra $3,000, $4,000 for what is effectively a solid state machine with a slightly altered layout and pretty graphics and, you know, an LCD screen. So therefore, the next market is your casual or you're more mainstream, that's where you've got the Addams Family effect, where they go, yeah, but I remember Addams Family having a lot more than that, so why am I paying all this money again? The Beatles? Primus? Pabst? Maybe not. Yeah, that's true. yeah that definitely hurts with doing simpler machines at a higher price point and I think that that's ultimately what it comes down to is that you change the price point and all of a sudden the game fits into its lane and it thrives it's just you can't charge that kind of money for something that simple when people have access to the same exact thing for much less just without the pretty dressing on it which I think though I think Beatles is different because Beatles is so much better than the original Sea Witch but yeah Beatles is really really fun they've done just a great combination of everything for that the layout is so much more satisfying than Sea Witch it looks great it sounds great the modernization of the flippers and the rubbers and everything just completely transformed the game it is fun it is too expensive but But as George was on the show and hopefully somebody next week will be able to sort of enlighten us as well they testing the market As a business this is what you should be doing You shouldn be saying let have a look at the bill of materials and labour and production costs and then add, let's say, 20%, 30% margin on top of that and therefore there's our price point. As a business, they need to know what is the tolerance for a price point to be able to maximise the amount of profit. Now, this is the crux of it, Joe, because we as pinheads, and remember, going back to my original point, this is not necessarily my opinion, people, so don't write to me. I'm just showing you both sides of the argument here. How dare you? I know. But we as pinball people say, how dare you, Stern? How dare you try to maximize the amount of profit you're making this machine? I am a loyal customer. You need to make as minimal money on this as possible. I'm being a little bit facetious there but that's kind of our expectation we look at that and we go that is stern gouging the market yeah that's what businesses do they actually there are people that only look after pricing of manufacturing goods they look at what the market will tolerate and they should go to the maximum and if it doesn't work then refine but don't start with the most minimum amount of profit you can make and then go, oh shit, they're fucking probably going to sell this for $1,000 more. You know what I mean? And everyone looks at it and says, oh Stern, you have failed. Well, no, they haven't because they probably sold the units that they wanted at the margin that they wanted to. Yeah, and I think that it just comes down to the pinball community is very ill and non-informed when it comes to, say, the costs of licensing. like people flip out about the cost of Beatles but it's like you have no idea how much they probably had to pay for that Beatles theme so it's like it probably is what it say like if it's true they're going to do a Sea Witch that's a thousand dollars less well then you can almost look at that exactly and say that the Beatles itself putting that name and that theme on there costs an extra thousand dollars you know and it's just people don't recognize that and see the influences and you know the box The licenses force companies to live within. That's what happened with the Star Wars, with what was allowed, what wasn't allowed, what the art could look like, what the art cannot look like. And probably going forward, I see this as being a perfect, a really good market and a business model for them when it comes to – which is what I think what the Beatles model is going to prove out is that people are willing, if they love Beatles, to pay extra for said Beatles. and then you wait six months or whatever and then you put out the non-Beatle version of that thing, Sea Witch, and people will love that too. And I think that now you can look at that and look at the old catalog and go through it and go, all right, now we can do a meteor that's based on, I don't know, whatever, say a disaster space film. There you go, boom. And then later on we do the meteor version. And you can just do that with all of the classics. and I think that that would be hugely successful and then that all of a sudden becomes like this extra product that they add. Every year they put out a classic and then another version of that where you can, because you can go look at big game and who knows what you could turn that into before you put it back into a similar form to what big game is. You could put any themes on these things. And I think that, like I said, the people who love the thing and love whatever the theme is, will pay the extra for that theme integration. Yeah, I just think that they... I mean, we don't really know, but I think they may have potentially overestimated how many people fit into that category of absolute fan that has to have every single item of said merchandise, of certain bands, like of the Beatles, of Primus, you know what I mean? of Pabst, Cancrusher. Yeah, I mean, because we're never going to, especially like Beatles, we have no idea how many of those were actually sold because that market that's buying them are not, it's never going to be seen in public. Like these are going into people's homes. But everyone says, this is what's really interesting, people go, oh, it's been an absolute failure because distributors still have stock. Well, they weren't necessarily going out to sell these things out. and if you compare them to a, you know, the only comparison we have is to a cornerstone machine, so let's say a Munsters or a Black Knight where we know when a limited edition sells out and usually it's instant or within a week or two weeks and we go, yep, it's a hit. We have no idea how many pros or premiums have been sold. Exactly, and they're always there. So does that, when there's plenty of stock of premium blank, does that mean that that is a failure? Right. So you've absolutely just got what I meant in that we, because I know people, I've had people email me, message me and talk to me, to my face and say, well, Beatles was a complete flop because distributors still have stock. Well, yes, I know they only had 1,964 of them, but that may be twice the numbers of what Deadpool sold. We don't know. Very true. So there you go. So the point in all of this, I'm saying, I've actually lost my point, but we actually started talking about Elvira and it led to that, right? Because we're just sort of keen to know what's coming next. So what happened this week was Elvira sent a note out to her fan club, which she calls a fang club. She's so clever. See what she did there? She's so clever. So she said, this is the last thing of her newsletter. it says I couldn't be more excited to announce that after a long wait my latest pinball machine from Stern is finally due out this October if you thought Party Monsters and Scared Stiff were good, I didn't wait till you get a load of this baby, nothing but pure blood curdling fun so okay here's here's where people are going to angry fists at the podcast and send me hate mail i look i i've said that i don't like scared stiff but i actually really like elvira and the party monsters and it's so the opposite to what everybody thinks i mean i'm not i don't i mean i guess they're fine for what they are um scared stiff it's just there's so little there yeah so like you hear the same bad jokes over and over again it's like cool I've heard the little head and the big head and the, you know, all these jokes. And it's like, and then you're through the game and you're like, all right. Like, it's like, I don't want to have to get scared stiff four times at a game. Like, it's not. So it's like, I mean, it's fine. It's just, it's the opposite spectrum of, say, like, Family Guy, where it's like, when you play that, you're never, you could play that, you own it. you're not going to hear the same joke probably once or twice in the entire game because there's so much there. Whereas this, like, in a singular game, if your game lasts long at all, you're going to hear every joke. Yep. And at which point does that just become like, yeah, I get it. He's going to wake him up. He's so stiff. This is great. Look, it's big head and little head and get some head. It's like, okay, it's cool. How many different head jokes can we make? and it's like, at least in the Party Monsters, you don't have that. So it's just like a shallow rinse-repeat game that's just kind of fun and you don't have to deal with that baggage of getting sick of the sound. So I think I kind of agree with you. I think I like Party Monsters better because of that. Oh, there you go. Okay, cool. So what we know about, and we know very little about the Elvira 3. We don't know what it's called. But what we do know is that it was originally a concept that Dennis Nordman and Greg Frares came up with. And it was accidentally, I think, announced at Texas Pinball Festival when I think it was Elvira or maybe the publicist had mentioned that the pinball was coming out, something like that. And we also know that Lyman is on the code. Well, we believe it anyway. It hasn't been confirmed, but that's what we reckon it is. my first question to you is going to be here we go into controversy time how do you think how do I say this like if Elvira 3 came out and it was at the same level of humour as Scared Stiff with the current environment do you think people will be up in arms with it or is it because Elvira is a caricature of it that she'll get away with it? I think probably the later, because it just seems like there's things that exist on her games that you couldn't get away with on other games because it's her. So it seems like my guess would be then that would be, but I think that ultimately then that will be what people will point to and be like, see this is the hypocrisy of this shit you know so i think either way it's just gonna end up being a mess but i'm sure it's gonna be great lyman's doing it so it's gonna be an amazing game yeah it's gonna be an amazing game i just what i i mean i've always been like a massive elvira fan like i've just i've just thought her humor is hilarious and this is the whole thing where people sort of go oh well you know she's showing her boobs well she's actually showing her boobs because she's taken the piss out of people that find that stuff attractive, if that makes sense. Like, she's actually doing it to show that males that get all red-blooded about that kind of stuff are actually silly. I think that's kind of the angle. So does that mean that she's immune from it because she's going, I got you, you idiot. Yeah, I think so. But, you know, it's hard nowadays. it's impossible to know how any of this stuff gets internalized anymore. But yeah, I mean, I think ultimately the stuff in her games is funny. And, you know, I think that it is fine. I don't think that there should be anything wrong with it. Whether or not it ends up being that way, who knows? We never know anymore. So, I mean, because Like, they posted over in, you know, the IFPA, you know, championships that Elvira Backglass over there literally has her boobs out. Which I'm like, okay. I didn't know that was a thing. It's like, who knows? Yep. So, anyway. I'm looking forward to it. It's not a dead set for me as far as theme goes. It's one of those, I don't know. Maybe I am over the whole just get in on an LA, the FOMO, fear of missing out. I would be happy to just play a pro or a premium of this and not have to just be in on an LA. But with Lyman, obviously in Lyman we trust, it's still got to be a good layout. So, I don't know. And also because I think Dennis Nordman now works for Deep Root. they effectively took his license his layout effectively and they paid him for it now it's up to them to do whatever they want with it so any sort of alterations or fine tuning that had to be done that's without Dennis Nordman's input yeah but obviously they have plenty of pros in the building that can easily handle that this is it and again it was another one of these campfire discussions over the weekend where people were like you know gone are the days where you know machines would go out on site or they'd go out to the public to... I think that's what it was. I think the comment was, you know, Stern should be going out to the public to find out what people want. Well... Sure. They're kind of the experts. Do you know what it is? It's us as pinball people just like, why won't someone listen to my idea? I've got ideas. I've got the best theme in my head. why won't people listen to me? Because you're not an expert. It's the whole Game of Thrones. It's like season eight. We've talked about this. Everyone was so up in arms about it. I'm like, no, I was happy the way it ended because I let the professionals tell me the story as opposed to me trying to speculate what the story would be and then get disappointed when it wasn't exactly how I wanted it. No, just let the experts be the experts and stop thinking that you're better than the experts. Yeah, we're all better than everybody. Don't you know that? I know. It frustrates me because I think that people do get so worked up when their expectations aren't met. And I'm not saying that ignorance is bliss. What I'm saying is it actually can be more fun to enjoy something when you're not having preconceived ideas of something. That's kind of what I'm saying. Anyway, whatever. Bring it on, Elvira. I'm keen to see what you've got for me. Yeah, I'm excited Now, after we Well, we actually, last week, we recorded early We recorded on like a It was a Saturday morning here and a Friday night For you And then you went off to An event Which How'd that go for you? Uh It Um You won I did, I won, yes This was the Pym Masters of Rhode Island right? Correct, yes. It was a very nasty finals. Yeah, I threw up. It was me, Bowen, Jerry Bernard and Frank Romero. It was nasty. The reason why I bring it up is because if you remember we were recording last week and you said, you were like there's no way you're going to win. And I'm like yeah, I probably agree with you. And then you kind of won. So I need to send an angry email at you for your opinion. How dare you. How dare I have a different opinion to you. So, that was really exciting for you. We've had some big events the last week as well, in that we've also had the IFPA World Championship, the 16th one, I believe. Did you get to watch any of it? I did not. I will be absorbing it after the fact once it makes it onto interwebs so that I can watch it. I watched a bit of it, and if people go to... If you search Twitch for JDLPinball, you will see all the archives there, and I think it's also been archived on YouTube as well. So I managed to watch a bit of it just because of the time difference. It obviously happened in Italy. I think we're, I don't know, probably six hours, seven hours difference maybe. and you know it was interesting to watch a lot of the streaming was done via a gimbal so it was actually somebody standing sort of like at a three quarter view over the shoulder of somebody that was actually a really kind of interesting way to actually watch it like where obviously when we watch streaming we have the three playfield cameras what was I found really quite interesting about the over the shoulder view is that it kind of felt like you were actually there looking over somebody's shoulder watching the game. I don't know. There was something about it that just felt... That sounds awesome. I don't know whether... They were all sort of like, oh, look, unfortunately we have to go to the gimbal. And I was kind of like, I'm glad you are, because that makes me feel like I'm standing there looking over somebody's shoulder watching the game. So it was a very interesting way of being able to stream. but I don't I don't know whether I really want to spoil too much because it's only just happened what I do know is that the finals were between Daniele Acciari and Johannes Ostmeyer Italy and Germany respectively we do know who won and the way the person won was just spectacular It was just one of the biggest comebacks in pinball history. And I think I might just leave it at that. I mean, if you want to find out who actually won, it's all over the internet. But I'm going to link the Twitch, either the Twitch or the YouTube clip or the stream. And then you can follow along and see what happens. But it was a spectacular win. Yeah, I mean, I don't know the details of what happened, but you're saying that it was a bigger comeback than Daniele in the pro circuit? Where he climbed that ladder from, like, 20th to first? I remember, I think this was a single-game comeback. Meaning, so I think they had to go to the 10th game because they actually had a tie in the 9th game. Like, they actually got the same score in the 9th round. on a machine. Exactly the same. Wow. Oh, I did see that. It was like an EM. I think it was like 2,130 points or something, and they both got exactly, which is just unheard of. And then in the last game, someone put up this massive score that you would never think you'd ever be able to beat, and something happened. So I just don't want to give it away. Go and watch it. But I know what you mean about the Daniele, the pro circuit, where he started at the bottom and just kept winning and winning and winning and winning and winning and winning. Yeah it was crazy But this was a single game comeback is what we're talking about I cannot wait to see it Yeah well Guys it's one of those Historic moments Just go and watch it Or do something I don't know Now look there was another thing that came up this week As well which I actually am really Pleased that you've got a lot more information Than I do And that I saw a twitch feed of somebody that's Putting together a Metroid pinball machine. Now, for those people that don't know, Metroid is a video game. It's a Nintendo franchise. There's been the original Metroid, and then I think there was Metroid Prime, I think it was, that came out on one of the later consoles. And it's a very revered franchise in the Nintendo video game world. And someone's making a Metroid pinball machine. There's been a bit of a stream of somebody showing where he is. but Joe, you know about this machine I do that's actually one of my friends games that he's making he lives like 20 minutes away from here Mark Seiden okay, so what's the go? I haven't played it in it's current state where it's like a fully formed game, I played it when it was more like a white wood and paper ramps and stuff like that, I haven't had a chance to play it now that it's like fully formed and working rules and wireform ramps, and it seems like the playfields hold together now. So I can't comment about that part now, because now it's a fully flipping realized machine. But it's super cool, and I'm looking forward to playing it next time I'm there. It's just one of those things, like, I try not to, because I've been there a couple times, and I haven't mentioned about it, because it's one of those things, like, if someone's making something like that, I don't want to be like, oh, hey, can I play it and give opinions on it? If you want me to look and ask what I think about things, absolutely. But I don't want to throw myself in there and just be like, hey, I don't know. This feels like this shot doesn't feel right or blah, blah, blah. And also, there's no fun playing an unfinished product like that when it's so close to being completed. It's like, wow, I want to play when it's done. because it's like, and he's got this amazing display on it. It looks so cool. It looks really good. Like, you know, homebrew machines are, you know, interesting in themselves. I think a lot of it is actually more technical exercise. It's almost like the people are like, well, I want to know whether I can do this. And, you know, some people have set themselves up for a very simple machine. Some people have gone complicated, right? and varying degrees of success in between. This one seems, I won't say it's necessarily complicated, but it's fully fledged, and the layout looks really cool. It even shows underneath, so there's a lot of mechs, a lot of wiring in this machine. It's certainly sort of Bally Williams, sort of stern sort of levels that he's going for. It looks really good. I don know I get excited by this because I just want more talent in the pinball manufacturing world Yeah and I think that there plenty of room for it So, I mean, this was just a passion project for him where he just loves Metroid. So, I mean, who knows what it means and if he's going to make more after this, who knows. but in the meantime I can't wait for it to be finished and spend some time on it One last announcement I just wanted to make as well so Pinstadium, here we go it's my weekly Pinstadium chat I don't know whether you noticed but they've actually got a new sort of addition called Hovers and it's a new mounting system so the biggest complaint that people have had about Pinstadiums and to be honest it's something that frustrates me as well is every time I lift my playfield you actually have to take the pin stadiums off before you lift the playfield and I reckon if I had a dollar for every time I forgot to take my pin stadiums off lifted the playfield and they sort of snapped because they were not broken but just sort of snapped off because I'd forgotten I'd have over $100 now just a dollar each every single time and you just forget so they've actually now got a new mounting system that actually now mounts onto the playfield itself so as you lift up the playfield the pin stadiums are on it so anyway that's very cool it is actually very cool and I guess what I like about Scott Scott knows because people call out the deficiencies of a product all the time the good thing about Scott he goes yeah you're absolutely right and then just literally loses sleep every night until he solves the problem so that's now the next one hopefully will be the strips that go over the light so it diffuses the light disperses the light. Anyway, I'm just putting it out there because I think that's very cool. So, Joe, shall we talk about your tip? Oh. Shall we? I don't know. So, it's time for our very first proper Joe's Tip segment. What do you think? Sure. so what we're going to do this is it's almost like it's almost like Joe's tip the top 100 I don't know that oh it doesn't work at all too soon it is so I'm going to give you a random game in the top 100 of Pinsight and I want you to tell me your strategy for blowing up the machine alrighty you reckon you can do this see if we can get a good one on the first one let's see if we can get an absolute cracker It'd be funny Okay, here we go This will bring back memories to everybody Okay, Google, pick a number between 1 and 100 Alright It's great to hear this live 54 54 is You are not going to fucking believe this Oh boy, what is it? Elvira and the Party Monsters Oh my god, really? I am not even kidding so you have what the see you are in the future I knew it see you're cheating it really does sound like I'm cheating but I'm absolutely not so you need to tell me how to play EATPM that is the thing isn't it ok so on this game the main thing that everyone's going to be doing for the most part is going to be going for multiball, right? So the way you light your locks is going to be the top lanes. The top lanes is the best way to do it. It's not the only way to do it, but that's the safest way to do it. And most people get there via the middle and plunges after locks and getting your upper lanes, which will light your locks. The other way you can do it is also the jam drop targets in the middle. Also do it, but those obviously are a lot more dangerous. and pretty much you get the locks that are available. I believe on normal settings it has one or two locks lit and then you have to light the last one via the upper lanes or maybe you have to do it for each. I don't get a chance to play it that often, but the key is to make sure that if you have a lock lit and you end up in that upper area that you do not complete the lanes because if you do, then you're making it that much harder on yourself to relight your locks because then you're going to have to do all the upper lanes again. It's kind of similar to the way the locks fighting works on Space Station. Yeah, Space Station with the upper lanes, which has the same thing. And then just pretty much once you get into multiball, you're going to be hitting each ramp, and then you're going to be getting the jackpot via the left ramp, I believe. You have to hit the right ramp, and then you hit the left ramp. So that's going to cash in your big jackpot. Outside of that, which is more or less kind of going to be the thing you're going to be doing, You can loop either ramp for increasingly more points. The left ramp is worth more, but it's also harder to do than the right ramp. And that one, if you loop it enough, you'll start getting Elvira letters, which is also lit by completing the top lanes or the jam lanes, I believe. Light the Elvira letter, blinking for a limited amount of time on the ramp for you to cash in a letter. And that gives you, if you spell Elvira, I believe you get a flat 3 million for that. so if you can loop the left ramp consistently over and over and over again I believe after I want to say four shots in a row it'll start giving you letters for every subsequent shot which then will spell virus so those are the main things you're going to be doing on the game you never want to hit the little dancing whatever those master targets in the left you never want to do that and the side targets you don't care about those either So it's a very simple game with what you're going to be doing, and more or less you're grinding multi-balls over and over again. And the only thing that in tournament play you have to be conscious of is, you know, are you leaving locks for other players? Because I could have stolen rot. Yeah. So, like, if you're up probably what you want to do at that point, like say you're up, you know, X amount of million, whatever like that, it's ball three or whatever, or just you're up a big amount, probably what you want to do is you don't want to start grinding through your locks again because if you happen to leave them in there, it's a huge opportunity for the other players. So probably what you're probably going to try and do is then just grind ramps at that point to just grind some points without setting the next players up that are coming after you. So it's one of those things like if you're down, you're grinding multiple balls and hopefully you don't drain with those things lit. If you're up, you probably don't want to re-lock balls unless you are 100% sure that you are going to get it. Because if you don't, it's like on TNA. If you leave those locks there and they only need one shot to that shot, they only have two ramps and all of a sudden they have the jackpot value and they're probably pretty close to catching you. So it's always best to just, if you're up, don't do the work for them and just grind some ramps, get some extra points that way, and make them get all the way through the three locks. I think the other thing I remember about it as well, as far as tournament play, is the Elvira letters as well. I can't remember how you actually qualify them. I think it's via the left ramp. And I think once you spell Elvira, it then starts a hurry up somewhere, and those letters carry on from player to player, I think, so they can be stolen. I think the default setting is that they're player to player as in each player has their own unique letters and like I mentioned you light those letters either from repeated left ramp shots or the jam targets will also light letters for you and once you complete the Elvira letters it's a 3 million points to like I think hitting the ramp one more time or something like that Yeah. Yeah, okay. Which is the other big point, opportunity in the game, you know, is getting three million for spelling Elvira is pretty big. It might even be bigger than the jackpot, no matter what it's set to. Yeah, probably. Again, we obviously... I'm telling you now, it was not rigged. It just happened to be Elvira when we talked about this machine before. But it also came from an era before ball saves happened. So it's... Don't mess up. do not mess up because you will just die. Yes, you will. You will. So that was an easy one. Yeah, well, there you go. I'm actually really impressed with how you just rattled this stuff off the top of your head. So, yeah, you know what? You've earned your place as nearly top 40. To be fair, you got a game that I at least knew. One of these times it's going to be a game that I've never played and I'm just going to be like, hmm, I'm going to make up something, and then I'll see if anyone notices. And then we'll definitely get some awesome emails coming in. Because ultimately the emails go to you. That's true. I wait either way. Yeah, absolutely. And look, guys, just last thing for this week, before I make my drive back to Melbourne. So I'm actually in Sydney at the moment. I'm in my hotel room. I actually have heard somebody knock on my door. They're trying to kick me out of my room. So that's why I've got to go and then drive for 10 hours back to Melbourne. We have actually just had the Southern Hemisphere Pinball Championships. And how did you go is what I've heard you all say. And the answer is, hmm, yeah, right. Yeah. Sure. I distinctly remember you saying, I think you got third. At least in one of the things. I did get a third. That sounds good to me. Yeah, where was it? This was on the Flip Frenzy The Flip Frenzy Yeah, I I think there was 72 players and there was a the top 8 got through to a final round and the final round was two groups of four, then the top four, so I managed to get into the top four and the last game we got to play was Centaur and the person who was top seed got to pick Centaur and when they picked Centaur I went Oh yeah, fuck yeah I can really fucking play Centaur. Oh, yeah. I couldn't play him. And Centaur heard you and said, oh? Really? Okay. Challenge accepted. Yeah. Centaur, fuck you. Fuck you. So, yeah, I came third. Simon Haxson came first. David Peck, Rota Dave, came second. And Simon Peel from Melbourne, He came fourth as well So that was good fun Oh my god There's so many tournaments We had You know Qualifying was on Saturday I qualified third Yeah I was happy with that That sounds good Yeah And that night We had a three strike tournament Where I absolutely Bombed out And came eleventh So You know Mark Tibbetts Won that Danielle Peck You know She was second Eric Fisher third Shannon Paul Hey Shannon was fourth. So then we had the main comp. Now, you know, I would have done... You could just tell I was going to go so well in this one. This is the third seed you were in? Yep. Does it mean you were bus driving some? At least a little bit? I was driving the bus. So in my group... So this was top 32 went through. And in the first... Oh, you've got to... It was... The way the banks were set up, there was like a modern, a mid, and an old, right? Kind of Pimberg style, right? Mm-hmm. In fact, Pimberg style, right? Points were 3-2-1-0. Exactly like... It was kind of almost exactly like even the points were 3-2-1-0. So I went around the entire collection five times and I just couldn't find a bank that stood out, right? But as far as I like all three games, there was either two and then a shitter or one and two shitters, right? So I settled on the one that I felt was going to be... Least shitty. Least shitty. And this was a bank of... Get ready for this. Whirlwind. Okay. Superman. Underrated. I haven't played a working one, but when I went while playing one, that was like the flippers were garbage. I imagine that with good flippers that seemed like that would be at least a pretty fun game. And the third game in that bank was Transformers. Wait, so which is the shit game in that bank for you? Transformers. Really? Well, only in that it was pretty tilty and it was... The outlines were wide and it was just destroying a lot of people. but it turned out to be a bit of a long player. But also, you know, Superman played extremely well, but Superman's a bit of a random one. The outlines on that are a bit funky. But also Whirlwind as well. Again, one of those games, no ball save, can really destroy a lot of people. But in the first round, like, I came, like, first on Whirlwind, second on Superman, and then my first ball on Transformers was like 49 mil first ball so nice it was nice I was three that's a lot on that game that's like like I think everybody else got about one or two mil right yeah that's other people see you they hit that score and go alright move on I'm not sitting here long enough to get that that's right so I was fine so then when it came to round two I also got to pick and you could pick the same games again because in this tournament you're allowed to pick the same games twice uh huh uh stop it you have no idea there's things happening in the background right now that updated on our conversation so yeah so I thought I'm going to pick that bank again because I did so well in the top 32 so I was top 16 I picked it all again and I think I got maybe a last a second last and then maybe a third so I was out of round 16 so I think all up I ended up on 11th which is a bit shit but that's okay I could then do the classics which was a pump and dump was the only one that was pump and dump and you know it was one of those things where I finished on like the 5th at the end of Saturday night when I went home woke up the next morning I was down to like 11th. Like people had been playing till six o'clock in the morning just on this pump and dump. Jesus Christ. I know. And then we got to the final 16. I got through to the round of eight. And then, have you ever played Old Chicago? Yes, I have. So this particular Old Chicago was having a bit of a malfunction. So mid-ball, it would go to the next ball. so yeah that's a big deal yeah right so if you were on ball one it would automatically go it would count your bonus and go to ball two as you're flipping around right of the same player yeah of the one because it was only one player game oh okay I don't know whether it is a one player game one player machine but we're only playing one player games on these machines yeah it's a four player but yeah yeah there you go so it actually happened in the round of 16 to somebody that was in our group They got a compensation ball. It was all fine. But when it was my turn, it happened. But it happened on my second ball and went right to game over. Now, one thing about Old Chicago is that your third ball has double bonus. Yep, that's a big deal. So I missed that. I got a compensation ball, but I didn't get a compensation ball with double bonus. Interesting. They could have purposely put you on a third ball. No, I know. But it's one of these things where, you know, I explain the situation, but if I'd actually remembered and said, now, also, I didn't get my third ball, so therefore I didn't get my double bonus, the TD would have said, oh, okay, well, let's set you up to the third ball and away you go. But it didn't happen until I drained my compensation ball where I went, oh, and then the TD went, oh, double bonus. Yeah, it's too late. So couldn't change the decision. but all I needed was one extra point to get through to the next round because that was the third game. That sucks. And the score difference between me and the next person was probably 5,000 points, which is not a lot. Howie. Yeah, that's certainly a double bonus worth of something. It could have been. I mean, I had a shit of compensation balls, so I probably would have been out anyway. But it's just one of those, oh, fucking why would you have a malfunction on this game? Anyway, I was out, and I think I came maybe, I don't know, sixth, I think I was. Yeah, that's all right. But a guy called Luke, I want to say Chabonol. I don't really know how to pronounce your last name, but you might know Luke. He's from Canada. He was over here, and freaking great guy. He actually won Classics. So it was really kind of interesting that when they called out... He is Canadian. Yeah, that's why he's a good guy. just a really freaking good guy and it was just really funny because this is the Southern Hemisphere Pinball Championship and someone from Canada won the classics, that was just so good that's impressive I was very pleased with that, and bells and chimes Emily Cosson, of course she was going to win Dr John and Emily she was just on fire the whole weekend, which was really good to see yes, yes I've seen her blow before, she is great Quite incredible. She's really good. Really good. So, there you go. That was my weekend of pinball. Just a great weekend. Sounds like an amazing weekend. Yeah, look, it really was. It was just good people, good pinball, just rough malfunctions, but besides that, it was just freaking awesome. Yeah, what more can you ask for? Nothing more. That's it. Thanks, Ed. And what had happened on your weekend, pinball-wise? I played in the pin golf today. They had a flat-top Johnny's and A4 arcade. Had a front nine in that A4 and then had a back nine, which is like maybe a couple blocks away, a different arcade. So I played 18 games altogether, and it was really fun. I played really well in the front nine and then had some drama happen that completely took me off my game, and then I played really poorly on the back nine. So, but, no, it was fun. It wasn't for points or anything. It was just, it came with food. Yeah, it was for S's and G's. It came with food at A4, and, you know, a couple of the games were on five ball. Yeah, it was really fun. And I got to play with a great group of people. So, all in all, very fun day. Pinball is great, isn't it? In person. absolutely it's fun to watch too i like well it is fun to watch anyway um i'm now getting a call from reception for me to vacate my hotel room i've got to go so yeah thanks very much joe and thanks everybody for listening we will speak again next week now i didn't get to do this because i actually got kicked out of the hotel room uh but i'm now back in melbourne it is now probably 11 hours later after leaving sydney had a beautiful drive home but i forgot to mention a competition that we're going to be running so every week up until episode 100 which is not that far away um we're going to be running a competition so we're going to ask a question all you've got to do is email with your answer and the winner will get a free set of pin stadium lighting system that's right a free set of pin stadiums with shipping anywhere in the world scott from pin stadium has generously put up this prize so all you've got to do is you've got to write in to headtoheadpinball at gmail.com and tell me the name of the new mounting system for pin stadiums. Listen back. It was in this episode. It's somewhere there. Probably even just go to Pinside. Go to pinstadium.com. I don't care where you go. Just email me and tell me the name of the new pin stadium mounting system to go in the running for a free set of pin stadiums shipped worldwide. Thank you, Scott. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next week. See ya. Bye, guys.