But you can't be there 24-7, and that's the difficult thing. And if it's talking to somebody, if it's a professional, if it's medication, whatever gets you through the day, please, please, please do whatever is needed. And that's, I don't know what else to do. I don't know what else we could do. You're a smarter man than I am, Martin. What do you think? Here's what I take from it, right? So a lot of people, a lot of people were affected by it, right? This is the most confronting, I think, that I've seen the pinball community have to go through, right? So, and for those people saying, what could I have done? the answer really is you're not trained really to do anything but you can just be there for people like you said so i think really the the take out from this is we are now much more aware of mental illness and the impact of it because i think for a lot of people you hear about it but you don't really know about it well now we know about it so i think the best thing that you can do right now is keep being more aware about mental illness and about what people go through so you are better equipped for people that are going through it. Because I think I know certainly in people community here and also just in my circle of friends, there are some people that I know that are suffering from mental illness and a lot of people just don't know how to deal with it, so they avoid it. So I think really the best thing that we can do right now is just keep learning, keep understanding. So if the situation arises, you can do something about it rather than avoiding it. That's my suggestion. Yeah. I want to learn more about what are some of the signs. Yeah. There are obvious ones, whether it's health issues, financial issues, marital issues, things like that. I mean, you can see when people are struggling or have some depression, but I didn't see it with someone like Lyman. I wasn't as close to him as others. But you kind of look back and you see whether it was the head-to-head interview, whether it was slam tilt, whether it was me talking to him on Pinball Profile, whatever it was. When you hear some of these interviews and you compliment him and it seemed like there was a difficulty in him accepting those compliments because he really reflected on the things he would have liked to do better. And it's a shame because, my God, he just made masterpiece after masterpiece. Yep. No doubt. And this is a double-edged sword because I think a lot of people looked at it and went, oh, you know what? He's so hard on himself because he's a perfectionist. And if you look at the games that come out, they're pretty perfect. And you look at it and you go, wow, that's just Lyman. You don't realize that the struggle to get there is probably way more of an impact on him overall than we ever thought. We joked about how long it took for the code to come out. We thought, oh, well, that's the perfectionist in him. But really, he knew his name was on it, and he wanted the absolute best. And the funny thing is, really, his 60% is better than everyone else. I'm not slagging anyone in the business right now, but really, there was Lyman, and there was everyone else. And there are some great coders out there. We're going to see some people. You're doing it. I mean, I can only imagine you and others have been inspired by, okay, that is the bar that has been set. And that's where we're going to try to get to. And maybe some of us will. But, wow, what a great guidance. What a great leader and someone who can show us this is what is possible in pinball. Yeah, I mean, just I guess thank you for adding additional pressure not to make light of it. But what I do think of it is how can you write a set of rules that just has that magic, that X factor that he brought to it? And yet, look, I would say that he's my favorite coder. I would also say that there are other coders that are on that same level but for different reasons. But the thing that he did was he made something really complicated really accessible whilst making it really complicated for those people that like complicated rule sets, if that makes sense. You have a list of his games and let's talk about what the code really did to those games. Well, look, let's talk about, I want to start with what I think is the game that was absolutely resurrected because of Lyman. It's got to be The Walking Dead. It really is that quintessential example of the lineman sprinkling his magic on something. Because if I think back to when I first played The Walking Dead, I remember it was Pinfest in Newcastle. AMD had bought one down, which was nice of them. And I played it and I just didn't like it. I then played it in a tournament. I came second. Thank you. State Championships. and I just, I really didn't like it. And then when Lyman got a hold of it, it's not like he really changed the rules, the fundamental rules that much. The framework was still the same. Somehow it became enjoyable. How did he do that, Jeff? I never played the old code, so I've only ever played what is the Masterpiece, which is one of my favorite games, but everyone talks about how it was just resurrected. So I don't know what that old code was like. Okay, so what he really did was he made, because it wasn't just about the rules framework, it was how the game communicated to you. That is the most important thing that I feel that I'm trying to do with my code is how does the game make you feel? How does it communicate to you? How does it tell you what to do either by sounds or light shows or visuals on the DMD, which is what Walking Dead had, obviously, at the time. We've gone to LCD since. That's what he was able to do. But he didn't make things too obvious and he didn't make them too obscure. He just gave you breadcrumbs, enough breadcrumbs for you to know at any stage what you needed to do. And then when you did that thing, the fanfare was there for you to know you had done something great. He knew. He knew the magic to communicate to the player to make them feel good. And so that's what was missing from the game in the early code. Framework was still there. You still had to do, you know, Prison Multi-Ball that way and World Walker Multi-Ball that way. And Bloodbath was there as well. But you just didn't feel a sense of achievement. And you've got to remember, Walking Dead is a brutal layout. Thanks, John Borg. He gave us a brutal layout, particularly the pop bumpers of Doom on the right-hand side. They were just awful. But that what it meant You had a tough layout with a rule set that wasn so enjoyable And so when you got the two things of those together it feels like you got a bad game When you then have a game that tells you how to navigate a difficult play field better, that's what makes the magic happen. I remember listening on the head-to-head interview, which I loved. It really made me feel good to listen to that after Lyman passed, just to hear him laugh. And as the show went on, by the way, It's something to hear him really loosening up. You know, I felt there was always something guarded about him talking about code or certainly any kind of new designs. But by the end of that episode, I mean, you guys were just peas in a pod. It was wonderful. But he did talk about exactly what you were describing in letting the player know something is happening. And he talked about not so much looking up at the DMD or now LCD displays, but just on the play field. Is there something to let you know this is what's needed? This is what you should be going for while you've just done something. And he even mentioned it would have been nice to have maybe another insert here and there for certain things, but that's where lights and sounds kind of come in to direct the player. And you're right. You're absolutely right. And, yeah, there were the Easter eggs in there. Another game we can talk about is Metallica, which to me is still to this day, and maybe Godzilla will pass it one day, but Metallica is still the standard for me as the best Stern machine ever made. You know I think that, don't you? Well, I think we've talked, and I don't own it, I still think it's the best game. I can't find a flaw in that game, and that is really a lot to do with Lyman's Code. Even though I whine and complain, like, how do you add a ball? You do. We now know, but that's kind of the Easter egg there. That's kind of finding things out. And he does let you know, sure, you hit the picks. They're flashing. when you're in multi-ball, and then the snake flashes when you've hit all four. So that tells you something's going on there. And then you hit it and you find out what it is. So here's the interesting thing. So we obviously have a lot of conversations internally at Haggis about rules and design and all that kind of stuff. And here's what I've said a number of times is, if you give somebody something easily, then they have it. I know that sounds so basic. But if you put something just slightly out of reach, then you create desire. Okay? So your thoughts about, well, I wish they could make addable so much easier. You make it easy, therefore you get it, therefore you lose the desire. Easier to find out, though. I'm talking about easier to find out, not easier to get. No, no, no. Same thing. Yeah, you're right. Same thing because if you, as a player, work something out, how good do you feel when you yourself discover that yourself as opposed to just being told. It's one thing to be able to do something, but when you discover that thing that you need to do yourself, you feel massively rewarded. And the purpose of pinball, oh my God, here it is, right? The purpose of pinball is to play one more game. That is the absolute goal of pinball, is to make you want to play it more. So if you give somebody everything they need, why would they need to play it again? It's kind of like watching a movie and knowing what the ending is. Yep. So, you know, a pinball is a story and you want to find out what's going on and you might have to go back a chapter just to figure out what happened there or maybe figure out who the characters are or where this is going and then you progress. You're right. So it's like what a Stern... You know how they've now put in those challenge modes, like Jurassic Park has Escape Noobler? What they do is they give you a mode that you're not likely to see all the time, but it's just slightly out of reach. But they don't give you the final wizard mode. They don't do that because they don't want to give you that thing that will stop you desiring to get to that thing. So remember, this is the purpose of layouts, rules, sounds, lights. Every bit of ingredient that goes into pinball is to, if you think about historically, is for you to put more money into that machine. But now that there's a lot of home users, it's still there to give you that one more go feeling. That's what it is. That's what Lyman Sheets absolutely knew how to do. Give me two more games that stand out for you for Lyman for really shaping it. For me, one of them still, I know it seems simple and I don't know, maybe this is the simplicity that I love. I'm a huge Monster Bash fan. I know we can talk about AFM and Medieval Madness, but there's something about Monster Bash that's just fun. Is it the deepest code ever? No, but he makes it fun. It is absolutely fun. And remember, with Monster Bash, again, it's because the game is giving you sensations back to tell you that you're having fun. You know you're having fun because the machine is making sure that you're having fun, and that's what he did. You know how I feel about Elvira, House of Horrors. I find it one of the easiest layouts ever. But do I admit it's a great game? Yes. Why? It's Lyman's Code. There's a lot of great assets in there and call-outs. And he was really particular on making sure that, you know, there was that fun aspect, too, and the story being told. And you can definitely say that in Elvira. You've got a popular personality in Cassandra Peterson and what she does. And Lyman kind of tied it all together. Look at the effort he put into Batman. Oh my goodness. I know. Add those minor villains and just having all those assets and really not taking any for granted. Whether you like the game or not, that is a deep, wonderful game that is a different time every time you play it. Okay. Funny you should mention that because if you think about Elvira and Batman, I kind of put those together in they're the really complicated but accessible games that Lyman did. but let me tell you what i believe to be the first time he ever demonstrated us or you know figuratively said to us i'm giving you a complicated rule set but i'm going to make sure that you understand how to get through this complicated rule set what do you reckon it was what do you think i think was the first game that demonstrated that i don't know iron man maybe a c d c oh okay Think about it. It's a long game, and it's fairly – the standard of complexity has gone up since then. But think about that game. When it came out, it was kind of next level when it came to a rule set. Yeah. And that was Lyman. And remember, he still wasn't happy with it. Ridiculous. My first new in-box game, which I got, I think, in 2015. That isn't leaving my house. I'm telling you right now. I've modded it up and seven years later, I still play it to this day, still enjoy it. And 100% it's Lyman's Code. But, you know, the ones everyone talks about are AFM, Attack from Mars, and Medieval Madness, which I think if I look back into my arcade days, I have put more money into those machines than any other games combined. Why? Something kept bringing you back. There was fun. You knew what to do. You knew how to progress. It wasn't easy. It got harder as it went on. but the rewards were so i mean it just felt good to blow up the spaceship to blow up the castle and it's not a coincidence that the first three games chicago gaming company remade were lyman games yeah and that's that's interesting because you know a lot of people put put it down to brian eddie saying you know it's a brian eddie game therefore that's why they're successful and you know what they are brian eddie games like we always talk about whoever designed the layout is the designer. But we're talking about it now. Really the coder or the person that comes up with the rules framework or actually codes the game I think probably needs to have a greater level of responsibility or kudos that it's given to the game. And you're right. Lyman is also what made those games great. Last thing I'd say about coding too is when Cactus Canyon revisited, I guess they call it now, the new one that's come out, you're going to be able to buy an additional code. we've heard from josh that there will be that josh lyman even after his passing there'll still be that code will be available a lot of things were already put in place so i think that's i didn't like the model of how they they sold it i wish it came with the game but i'll tell you this everyone who owns a cactus canyon game is going to be buying that code you're going to want last code of course yeah you need it you need it in your life because it's it's his legacy now It helped that he was such an incredible player too. We talk about him being a coder, but there are only five people in the world that have ever won two different majors. There are people that have won the IFPA championship or Pinnberg or Papa or the EPC, but only five of them have won more than one. Of course, now there's the Open, and he won three Papa championships, and he also won the EPC, which is just incredible. I think it was in Finland, and that's no small task to win four majors like Lyman did. An incredible player, and that probably helped him with code too, but I know when we watched the funeral service, there were just so many touching moments, and it wasn't really so much about the coder or the player. It was really about the man. When Penny was joking about them courting and dating and all that kind of fun stuff, and they were playing each other, and they had to figure out, okay, what's going to happen? And I think she said something to the effect of, so what's going to happen if you win? And his reaction was like, if? If? Which was, I love that comedic cockiness and just, I mean, of course he won, but he's spectacular. And Mike Vinegar, very touching about, Lyman was really important to push hard to get Mike employed into pinball. And we've seen what he's done. his sister's comments just about how he dropped everything for her and just a loving brother very touching roger oh hey you know you and i know we've we've talked a lot with roger and uh you know he never saw anything like him he just uh was in awe and you think of all the things roger's seen but when that first championship happened and he saw what lyman could do it was It was something, his discipline was unlike anything he'd ever seen. And Roger himself is a pretty darn good player, but just a loving tribute. And I have to thank Lyman, honestly, because any podcasts I've ever done, whether it's this, whether it's Pinball Profile, it was me being at Papa in 2016 and sitting beside Bo and Karens and Lyman Sheets and just thinking, holy cow, I'm able to play these world champions. I'm able to sit beside them and talk. And what other hobby sport can you do that in? If you like football, you're not catching passes from Tom Brady. If you're a golfer, you're not playing in a foursome with Tiger Woods. But in pinball, any of these events, you can talk to some of the greats. And to be able to talk to Lyman and Bowen at that moment, I thought, wow, maybe I can use my broadcasting skills and interviewing and make something out of it and some of these pinball profiles. So I have to thank Lyman for that. Yeah, well, I guess I'll tell you the story about the only time I met Lyman because I'm going to go back a bit because the first, I think a lot of people knew about Lyman was the special When Lit movie that came out. And in fact, I tried to watch it just after he passed away and I couldn't get through the Lyman part. It was just too much. But I just remember that was the first time I knew of a pinball celebrity. When everyone, they were talking about who's the greatest player, everyone just kept saying, Lyman Sheets, Lyman Sheets, Lyman Sheets, right? It was just, this is the guy. So he's the first real celebrity slash hero slash person out of reach that I knew. And when I finally got to meet him, which was at Pinberg, when I was grouped up with him, and I was like, oh, my God, that's Lyman Sheets. Two things happened. Three things actually happened. First of all, he was so chill. We were always going, where's Lyman? Where's Lyman? And he would just turn up with a beer going, yeah, I'm ready. It's like, okay, cool. That's him. That's how chill he is. Second of all, he was so, so easy to talk to. He just had no ego whatsoever, was just happy to talk to anybody that would talk to him. Sign of a true gentleman. The third thing that happened, which for me is just the highlight of what was one of the highlights of pinberg but certainly just was it for lyman i got to watch him play first of all i got to watch him play pinball i got to watch him decimate creature from the black lagoon in that stance that play style get through to a level of this game that no one that i'd never seen and he was playing it in such a risky way like he was doing a strat that people just wouldn't normally do but that was just him he was just like well that that's how i play i go go big or go home and just so casual and it was just such a joy to watch that level of expertise that i'd known about and i'd seen on many streams but to see it in person was just golden we're gonna miss lyman we are grateful to have his wonderful games for years to come they will always be some of the greatest games ever you've set the Bar, you're a wonderful man. We miss you dearly. And it's difficult for us to speak. There aren't enough words to describe how wonderful he is. But we do want to thank him. And you certainly can honor him by helping out the National Alliance on Mental Illness. That is N-A-M-I dot O-R-G. And if you can donate, that's wonderful. If you can be a voice for somebody, that is also invaluable. The effects of this person just can't be overstated enough. And we miss him now. And I don't think we'll ever stop missing him. I think we've lost a real pillar of the pinball industry. My only thing I would suggest to those that are hurting, that loved Lyman, that were close to Lyman, remember his life. Don't remember his death. His death was one horrible day, one bad day. We all have bad days. This is obviously the ultimate bad day. But really, remember the greatness and remember the good times of Lyman. It will help you in your mourning. I know with people that I've lost, and very close people, I never ever think of the anniversary of their death. I couldn't. In fact, somebody, the day we found out Lyman passed, somebody sent me a note and said, I'm thinking of your father. When we found out on January 21st, I had forgotten that was the day my father passed away years ago. I don't remember his death date. I remember his birth date. I celebrate that. I remember the life and I would like you to try to remember the life of Lyman sheets. It won't be hard because he was such a wonderful man and he gave pinball so much. So that's all we have to say for this. Thank you for listening. It's a, it hasn't been easy. Marty, thanks for uh uh helping me and uh and uh and others and we're gonna be back and we'll be back this week and on final round and uh until then we'll say so long thanks everyone for listening