The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Look at this. Here we are, back-to-back weeks. My name is Geoff Teels. Welcome to the final round. My name is Martin Robbins. Welcome, everybody. So good to have you with us. We're not doing this every week. We're just making up for lost time. Is that right, Marty? We did. Yes, well documented. I delayed us recording one week, so we are now going to be back on schedule. And I delayed us by taking my time editing. Sorry about the audio problems last time. That was actually part of the reason for the delay, too. So I was trying out a new microphone. Who cares? We're working now. You've got the program. If only, fingers crossed, we can get a great guest. Can we do that, Marty? Are you saying we haven't had great guests? Well, um... Yeah, I guess you are. We had Josh Sharpe on that one time. That was kind of not the best we could have done, right? We could do better. and I think we've done better this week. Ladies and gentlemen, for the first time ever on any podcast anywhere, today anyway, Roger Sharp joins us. Hello, Roger. How are you? I am good. How are both of you? Very well. It's been a while since I've spoken to you. I saw you at Pimberg, so I hope you've been well since then. I have been, and I know that you played some fantastic pinball during one of our group sessions. We had a chance to actually compete against each other or with each other, as the case might be. So, yeah, things have been okay since. Just, you know, still in hibernation, but as all the other Bears are, no pun intended in terms of Chicago football, just enjoying life and looking forward to, you know, whatever the next phase is going to be. And hopefully you guys are doing well as well. Sure, yeah. I guess as far as we can do, Roger. But again, because this is your first time on a podcast in a long time, let's just get some important questions out. Roger, did you save Pinball? No, we've already heard about that. Okay, hold on. I've got some other questions. Actually, and I'm not trying to be rude, we actually do have limited time today because Marty is really impressing people at Haggis Pinball once again by doing this podcast when he's supposed to be working. You're in your office right now, aren't you, Marty? I am. It is Monday morning, and I am recording at Haggis HQ. Wow. Well, please send my regards truly to Damien and the rest of the troops. Congratulations on their success, and I know that there's more success that's coming. So, fantastic. Well, I will absolutely pass that on. Yes. Yeah, look, it's fun. It's enjoyable. It's challenging. I know you've been in pinball for a very long time, not only saving pinball, but obviously in the industry as well. So you know the challenges that come with making pinball. But, you know, there's more challenges being a startup as well. So it is challenging, but it's fun. Well, good. And, yes, to your point, it is not an easy endeavor. And I think that some people wind up discovering that and either run away shaking their heads and others stick it out and hope that maybe there'll be some light at the end of the tunnel. So I give everybody hats off and kudos to those who persevere. I would say it's a good time to be in pinball, and we're going to get into that. But before we start, because we do have limited time, Roger, you got that thing I sent you in the mail. It looks like a it kind of looks like a dog collar, but really it's a necklace. Do you mind putting that on right now for a second? Sure. Let me see what I can do. Here, right here. Very nice. So, Roger, because we only have so much time, if you feel something in your neck, that just means we have to move things forward here. So I'm just going to test it out right now. Roger, here is just a small dose. Oh! Oh! Sorry. Okay, I will turn it down a little bit. Okay. Anyway, we should be good for this podcast. Okay. Well, the hair on my neck, I think, is starting to just mellow out and calm down. You get used to the smell of the burn, too. Don't worry about it. Marty, what's up? What do you have for Roger? Well, I want to talk about something, a topic that is near and dear to me, especially now that I'm in pinball officially. And it's what I know your expertise is in recent times. And it's really around licensing. And I know you've probably had so many freaking questions about licensing. But again, when I come back to that whole point of saying, you know, making pinball is hard or it's complicated, so is the world of licensing. And what is it about you that has made you the go-to person to get licenses? I guess because I've been at it for so long. The first licensing show, there's a licensing show that takes place. There's a number of them, but the main one, the first one I ever attended was back in 1987. And it was really before pinball in particular, but also some of the other areas where I've been working. It was really not even the beginning of the second renaissance. You know, I take my hat off to Tom Neiman and what he accomplished back in the mid to late 70s at Bali. He really set the standard. And I think that there was that period of dormancy, and I guess because of the friendships and contacts that I made, the relationships, the projects, it has remained continual. I think as well, and maybe this is a little bit different as a way to answer your question, because of my career in general, I've been involved with licensed projects, whether it be video games, slot machines, digital online. And so it hasn't just been pinball. And I've had an opportunity to work literally almost with everybody out in that world, whether it's studios, agents, managers, what have you. And I think because of that, I guess I have had some reputation, some following, and it makes it somewhat easier for me to maybe go places that others can't. I don't know if that makes sense at all and answers the question. But I guess that and the fact that I've been around for so damn long. Yeah, I'm not buying it because everybody can go to those shows, those licensing things. You talk about the friendships and the relationships. For once, Roger, now on a podcast, just tell us some of the greasiest things you've had to do to get a license because it's a lot more than cash and a handshake. Admit it now, once and for all. Redeem yourself right here on Final Round. Go, Roger. It is more than cash and a handshake. Thank you. But seriously, okay, there's bidding wars. There's interesting licenses that you've acquired that you weren't the only one seeking that license. So can you share us some incredible success stories that, okay, I didn't think I was going to get this, and then all of a sudden I did this, and the person woke up with a horse head in their bed or something like that? I don't know if it's ever been a horse head, but look, I think the biggest thing is trying to gain trust with folks. God, you know, look, one of the first licenses I did was actually Elvira back in, what, 1989? And just, you know, by circumstance and being able to work with Cassandra and, you know, working on a really great relationship. And obviously, you know, subsequently now we've had two other games. I think the other one was working with the NBA and promising them for NBA Jam that it wasn't going to be terrible to work with a coin-operated amusement game manufacturer. You know, much of the grunt work back in the early days was, as I used to believe and still do, overcoming the stigma of what a coin-operated amusement game is, specifically a pinball machine, and that we're not out there trying to totally destroy young minds and hearts, although even with that we know that we are. But I'm just saying, at least in terms of the pitch, it's the idea of everybody being comfortable. And I guess my philosophy has really been simple. I will only accept no's on two conditions when I'm negotiating for anything. One is that the financials are just incomprehensible and don't make sense. And I've run into that and I've had the good fortune of being able to negotiate terms that come back to some semblance of reality. The other is if there is a notion and a belief that the marketplace is different than what it actually is. And in that particular instance, I will endeavor to educate. And if it is still something that they have some serious concerns with, and most of it tends to be more in the gambling segment rather than in pinball or in arcade video games. But even with that, I'm just wanting them, as I've always said, if you're going to tell me no, I want it to be no for the right reasons, and I'm the one who has established the reasons. sorry it was a good answer roger maybe a little long but uh we got a lot of good information there sorry about that we'll turn that down a little bit marty it's the conversations i've been having with people about getting licenses today versus getting licenses back in the day the impression that people seem to have is that companies or license holders are wanting more maybe more money for the licenses now than they did back in the day? Is that the case or is it the same? It's different only because the medium is different. I didn't need footage for an LCD. You know, I mean, dot matrix display, okay, fine. I can take whatever content, whether it's from a movie or a concert or what have you and, you know, generate the appropriate graphics. Now you're looking at getting likeness rates, talent, audio, video. I mean, all of the extras make it more complicated, not necessarily more expensive, although there is still a challenge because the amount of games being produced for any given model are admittedly far less than they used to be. You know, I mean, an average run for us back at Williams Valley was probably somewhere between 10 and 15,000 machines. You know, the majority of companies from the biggest on down would probably get their eye teeth to have that many games, let alone the manpower and the resources to actually build all of that in less than 10 years. So it becomes somewhat problematic. I don't know if that answers your question, but the challenge obviously is educating and informing that perspective licensor that pinball is still alive, still active and still viable for them to tap into. But do you know instinctively what is going to be an easier or hard license to get just by somebody saying, I want this particular license? Do you know right away that it's going to be difficult or easy? Yeah, pretty much. Again, I go back to it. I've been doing this now for over 30 years. There isn't anybody that I have not worked with or anybody that I can't get to. And I know that certain properties, certain folks are going to be a little bit more difficult, whether it's financial or otherwise. And I try to take that into account whenever anybody approaches me looking for my assistance on securing a license. I would imagine when you're getting a license, really that IP holder is setting the price. It's not based on, well, how many units are you going to be doing? Where is this going to be distributed? What assets do you need? It's really whatever they want to deem that price to be. Maybe they've had other properties in their portfolio, like if it's a movie studio, like Disney would certainly say, well, we did this for Iron Man, so it's going to be this for Guardians or something like that. But they really set the price. Okay, it's a pinball machine? All right. That's different than a slot machine. That's different than a video game. That's the, I would assume, biggest negotiation or also the biggest room to be flexible. Okay, well, I don't need all this. I don't need the music. You've got a soundtrack of 24 songs. I don't need 24 songs. Just give me four, and you pick the four kind of thing. Is that where there's some wiggle room, Roger? I think there is on some levels. I think it's really incumbent upon the potential licensee to be able to articulate best possible scenario. What is it that you absolutely need? What are the things that would be nice to have but not necessary? And minimally, what can you get away with? And you start on that path. And I think, I mean, to your point, on some levels, it is somewhat accurate as to the potential licensor setting the price. But in some ways, and I guess, look, I guess when it comes to the way I negotiate and the people that I'm working with, it's different than it would be for somebody else making contact from the outside world. And what I've always asked prospective clients, tell me what your boundaries are and let me go see if I can work out a deal that's going to be acceptable and within your budget. And then you go out and you set up, you know, whatever the factors are and hope that there is a desire and a curiosity. And again, we're talking specifically about pinball rather than anything else to be able to see a project like that take shape. And whether it's Disney that I know people think of as being more difficult, there are some standards that just make things unapproachable. approachable and not just disney with with many of the other studios and and many of the other talent agencies and managers and attorneys when you talk to them there are some unrealistic expectations and it really becomes dependent upon educating i'm not going to give a specific example but there was a recent game where video assets were got but the audio assets weren't got It might be easy for people to work out. But is that because... Bobbly bo, bobly bo. I'm not saying who it is. But is that because you're having to deal with actors in that case? Because you get their likeness, but you don't get their voice? I'm just trying to work out the complexity of these things and why you would be able to get video assets but not audio. Sometimes it's a question of what the contracts were. So let's say we're talking about a movie and or a TV series. If the talent has not approved and signed on to have their likeness for an action figure or some other type of merchandise, when it comes down to getting particular audio from what's known as ADR sessions, looping sessions, where everything is split out, sound effects, music, speech, what you wind up doing, and I know that I've done this in the past, is you ask about using sound-alites. I mean, look, the classic example, and I'm not telling tales out of school, and it's been far so long ago, was Arnold for T2. I mean, we had gone out of our way and had gotten what we thought were some pretty good sound-alite people and sent them to Arnold for his approval so that we could use them. And the net takeaway was it was like he hated all of them, and effectively, that's all that they want. I'll do it. So, I mean, I know that the stories have been told that, you know, in his trailer, he wound up recording all of the speech calls for not just the pinball machine, but also the video game. So that's a great tip then. Marty, if you at Haggis are getting a license, just get an absolutely shitty voice actor and say, here it is. And they'll be like, screw that. I'll give you my real voice. Right. Tell Damien right now. Understand something. I have to interrupt on that because I'm smiling and thinking about it. That was my reaction as well, not just with Arnold, but with others. let's get somebody who's really bad. You wind up realizing, no, I've got to get somebody who's really, really good so that I don't lose them. So you can try it one way or another, guys, and hope for the best. Well, funnily enough, I do actually know a really bad voice actor. I just need to check your availability, Jeff. Go fuck yourself. Wow. Ouch, that was below the belt. Roger, do you get a lot of requests for an Australian jailer in games? Because I know a guy. Oh, let me tell you. I'm actually working on a project that might have that kind of need. So I'll let you know. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we're joking about the actual voice, voice actors, the images are important. I just think of back in the day when I don't know how many of the machines were made. Let's ballpark and say about 20,000 of them. when Bally made 8-Ball and didn't have the rights to Happy Days, Arthur Fonzarelli, Pinky Tuscadero, Henry Winkler, and on and on and on. But here it is. It's 8-Ball. It's not the Fonz. It's the Fonz. Yeah, it is. And I forget what the settlement was, but something that actually was made public was Space Invaders and the use of the alien character. and the studio came after Bally and Bally had to settle, a financial settlement in order to keep the product on the line and in production. So it wasn't a cease and desist necessarily, but it came close. Well, so then I don't know whether you would know of this one, but when Hankin released Empire Strikes Back, apparently they didn't have the license for that. Are you aware of that one? I was not aware of whatever the relationship was that went down and whether or not anybody chased after them. But, you know, you wind up taking a risk and we're going to keep somebody very nameless who had a project that they were touting and showing at the shows and assumed to tell the world that they have a license for it. And lo and behold, they didn't. And the studio came after them and basically were going to throw them in jail and take all of their assets as well as their parents' assets. So, you know, you have to be really, really careful. In that particular instance, I actually stepped in to rescue this person and to settle everything with the studio so that they could come up with a reasonable settlement and understand that this person just didn't know any better. It's a fine line of being, okay, that's just too close, like the eight ball situation. I don't know, games may be like, I'm just spitballing, Predator, whatever. These kind of games that license might not exist. But then you've got companies that will make a game that, okay, that is totally a ripoff, but it's definitely different when a game like Raven is made, and you're like, that is 100% Rambo. In fact, by the way, I watched First Blood. His codename to his other soldiers was Raven. I didn't realize that. Yeah, absolutely. But it's a female, so it's not Rambo. Right. I think that what winds up happening, and this is something that I sometimes deal with but not directly, It is wonderful to have a great IP attorney, trademark attorney, to be able to have an understanding as to what are the boundaries, whether you're doing a parody or however close or far. I forget the automobile manufacturer that had an ad campaign a number of years ago with someone dressed in a tuxedo with, I guess, a martini in one hand. And there was a particular group of folks, not the least of which was a studio as well as a rights holder, that went after them and said, hi, this is our secret agent, not yours. and they had to pay up a significant amount of money as well as just, if I be so bold, shit can the entire ad campaign. Please try to refrain from swearing on this program, Roger. All right, we have a certain level. We have sponsors we have to look after. I know I don want to have to use the zapper again Let just keep this on the up and up So licensing is one thing as we seeing in these new games and we always amazed We talked about it last program that Halloween and Ultraman Congratulations again to Spooky Pinball, to the Emery family, on the sellouts of those games. Don't know if I saw those as being great IPs, but for the Spooky model, where they have a smaller run, and they did sell them out, it's a perfect IP. So you don't, everyone talks about the Harry Potter IP, and if you can get that, sure, that's going to be very, very attractive. But you still have to produce a great game. Yep. You know, Star Wars is definitely a very difficult license, I would assume, to acquire. I know Steve Ritchie had some difficulties with the studio and, you know, felt maybe handcuffed a little bit of what he could do and what he couldn't do, whether it be art, voice, all that kind of stuff. Great IP, no question about it. But it doesn't always necessarily mean, A, a great game, or B, that it will sell a lot. So it really depends on the business model. And someone like Stern that produces mass volumes, that bigger IP is definitely more important. I think so. I mean, the challenge for them is to, number one, be able to get properties that are appealing to the broadest audience possible, do so in a manner of what is financially prudent for them, and hope that they can hit the mark when it comes to the creative execution. I've got to tell you what I was most impressed with, and this is, again, Stern. It makes sense that they get Jurassic Park and Star Wars and all the Marvel things and things like that. Those are no brains. But recent titles really impressed me that they did Stranger Things after there had only been three seasons on Netflix, not necessarily as mainstream, definitely not as Star Wars or Marvel, And then just recently doing The Mandalorian, which only had two seasons. By the time they were starting that game, there was only one season. So no real guarantees the show was going to be hit in season two. To me, that I would guess would be a little more of a risk on future payoffs for Stern to gamble and go ahead and make Mandalorian. It's paid off. It's worked. The game is a lot of fun. Finally got to flip it. But I was surprised they're doing something that is so relatively new as opposed to tried and true licenses. Well, and I think that, you know, look, Mandalorian obviously comes on board because it's an adjunct to Star Wars. So it's a derivative. So it's not totally and completely unknown. Stranger Things, absolutely. You know, you're looking at something that is potentially more of a niche cult following on what I'll call an off network. Although everything in these days with streaming services and subscription is no longer out of bounds. And I think that, you know, the challenge to the point that you were saying is how many, in quotes, slam dunk aid properties are out there? You know, who is the audience? Do we want to go with contemporary musicians and groups or do we want to go with folks who were really hot back in the 80s? You know, just as one example. And I think that what winds up happening is you look at content that is seemingly evergreen. And you hope that you can salt and pepper that with content that is more contemporarily timed, where it's something that's ongoing or it's in the middle. It's the second movie of a planned trilogy. And again, I think it's a matter of assessing the audience that you're primarily focused on and what is going to resonate with them. So I guess I understand what you're saying. I know I've questioned in my own brain when I have seen or heard a particular content and say, really? Seriously? Okay. That's something that I would never have done. But, and, you know, you try to, at least I always have, universalize and not personalize any of the decisions or value judgments that you wind up making when you are approaching, you know, a licensed thing. And there were any number of times where, and I know that I've talked about this on other occasions, where the design team, creative people, would just bombard me at work at Williams Valley. And it was like, fine, okay, let me see if we can get Gilligan's Island. I don't get it, but sure. And other times where I was the one trying to sell the dream and just say, look, it's Adam's family. It's going to be kind of like a cool movie, and we have total access. I've already been talking to them. And here is what the opportunities are, and it's taking nothing away from John Aston and Carolyn Jones, but I think that there's something here, and it's going to be really rich and wonderful. Let's take the jump and the leap of faith and hope that maybe we can have a game ready for the movie opening. So I guess it works on both sides of the extreme, if those examples make any sense to you. That's a very good point. Okay, there's this new movie. The studio is putting a lot behind it. It hasn't come out yet, but we think it's going to be big. We used to see pinball machines be made for these type of movies. So the pinball company would get the scripts and they'd follow along and figure out the modes and all that kind of stuff. I think of Congo. I think of Johnny Mnemonic. Heaven forbid somebody said, this barbed wire movie is going to be a great game. I just watched it the other night. Mystery Pinball Theater 3000 did a kind of a little clips of barbed wire. They were playing the game and they were showing clips. I'm like, all I could think of was like, who thought this was going to be a great movie or pinball machine? Yeah, I turned that one down, by the way. Those are the gambles you had to take, I guess, back then. Okay, this is what the studio wants. We can get the license. We can get the assets. That doesn't happen anymore. It kind of does, but it doesn't. But I will say, in all honesty, probably about 90% plus of all the license themes going back to the late 80s and through to the 90s, I either had a chance to do and got them or I turned them down. And I think to your point, yes. I mean, much of it is speculative guessing. I will be the first one to say, and thank you, Steve Ritchie, because I think it was really a good game for what it was with roller games. I turned down American Gladiators. In retrospect, I probably should have gone with American Gladiators. And there were other things like that. Giant Demonic, it seemed like it was going to be good. The Shadow, thought that that was going to be outstanding as a film. So sometimes you falter and sometimes you are surprised by the success and you kind of ride the coattails of that success with either a pinball machine or a T-shirt or an action figure or any other type of Anseli merchandise that's tied into a particular property. So I think that maybe what makes more sense today versus back in prehistory, before everybody was born. You could bury a bad game, taking nothing away from Popeye and some of the other games that we wound up doing. That can be buried without destroying your company. You kind of miss a beat, but you're back with something that's going to bring you back into the black just because of your overall production capabilities. I think now the risk is such that so many of the companies are relying on a single theme, a single property that they're building. They may ultimately have multiple games on multiple lines, but each one needs to stand on its own merits. So the point that you made before in regard to Charlie, the fact that they could pre-sell, you know, two different themes, you know, congratulations, hats off to them to be able to do that because it does become a risk. You don't know precisely and exactly how people are going to respond to a theme, whether it's a licensed theme or an original unlicensed theme. and I know that there's lots of debate about that and whether or not original titles can survive in this day and age. Does it make a difference now that pinball in, let's say in society, like we're in the bubble so obviously pinball is the most important thing to us, but it's probably not as popular as it was in the heyday. Is that a challenge for licensors to sort of get on the pinball bandwagon? Absolutely. I think the other problem is it makes it much more difficult for somebody like myself or others in a similar situation to justify the studio or management talent to actually want to be part of a pinball. I mean, the starting point is that it's not as pervasive as it once was. You can talk about there's barcages and there's these family entertainment centers. And guess what? There are leagues and tournaments. Oh, my God, it's incredible. Well, you know, that's a stretch from where it was 25, 30 years ago, where literally around every corner, you would find a pinball machine somewhere. So, you know, part of the challenge is educating folks that, you know, pinball is viable, and it's a very eclectic audience, and it's worthwhile. I guess that doesn't surprise me about that, because I guess the licensor wants, they're licensing their property for a reason. It's money. For pinball, it's not necessarily money. It's ego, vanity. It is a desire because they have a thing for pinball. Wouldn't it be neat and kind of cool to be part of that? So I think that that's absolutely part of the equation as opposed to some other properties that I work with in some other categories where definitely it is the money. It is working with a seven or an eight-figure guarantee, and if I can't not achieve that, then there's not any interest. So it becomes much more mercenary. And so what I'm hearing is that because it's cool for bands to have a band machine, they're probably more receptive and more passionate about pinball itself than, let's say, someone that had a movie in the 80s or a TV show in the 90s. I think that that's probably true on some levels. It's a much more personalized experience, if you will, if you're talking about musicians and music groups. I've dealt with many of them in the world of gaming for slot machines, and it's very much that same. It's a question of who their core audience is now versus maybe what it was back in their heyday. And, you know, other than being on public TV telethons, this gives them a chance to be more contemporarily positioned so that maybe they can get a residency in Nevada or some other place and continue, you know, playing songs that a fairly older audience can sing along to and dance to. Being familiar with the product, in this case the bands and their music, is very important. There's a comfort level. And I think that's why we see success in the older bands. And we hear people say, why can't they do new bands, new artists? Well, with ACDC and Metallica and Led Zeppelin and Iron Maiden and all these bands that have pinball machines, they're kind of not past their prime, but certainly their heyday. Yes, they may still be touring and whatnot, but the bulk of their biggest hits have already happened. So the band isn't really changing that much. If you do a newer artist, I just think of when Justin Bieber was in the height of his early career. Well, what he does now is so much different than that. So if there was a Justin Bieber pinball machine, him doing Baby Baby and stuff, that appeal factor is not really there nowadays and probably not part of somebody's collection. whereas ACDC, those songs aren't changing. Metallica, those songs aren't changing. I think of relating to television shows. Game of Thrones, when that came out, I think they made that game based on the first three seasons. There were several seasons after. So maybe the fans of a Game of Thrones is looking at this pinball machine now going, well, where's this? Where's this? Where's this? There's that risk factor of doing something new. And then there's one more thing, Roger, I wanted to get your thoughts on, and it's cancel culture. So if somebody is still performing and they do something that is deemed heinous and we must cancel them immediately, boy, that's the danger for a company putting all their eggs in one basket with that license. Absolutely. And it is. We live in times of higher tension than before. Everybody is being scrutinized a little bit differently. Some of the things that may have transpired years or even decades prior can come back to haunt you, and suddenly it's like, okay, we're kind of screwed. Let's stop building that particular product, that machine, and move on. Yeah, I mean, it is. It is a frightening thought when you're going down that road to hope that the duration of your production is going to be seamless and whatever takes place after the fact is after the fact, even though you still have to live with it. But that's something that's more of a risk factor with a current property that's still producing, whether it's movies, TV shows, music. Whereas those older bands I talked about, okay, well, again, we know everything that they've done. These artists are now in their 60s, 70s. I mean, Kiss, they're all 70. Everything bad they could have done has already been out there, whereas you don't know with a new artist. But I think the key is, and maybe it's the point that we're talking around, The times are different now than they were, you know, back 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago. And I think that all of the prevailing mores and attitudes about anybody who's out in the public eye, those are the things that we really didn't take too much account of back then. It didn't matter about Elton John's private life when he was Captain Fantastic in the movie in 75. You know, whether anybody thought of it or cared, it wasn't there front and center. And I think that, you know, the one thing that shocked me when I got involved with licensing, and I don't know, maybe I've told this story in the past, was Neil de Castro, who was heading up Williams at the time, when I was getting ready to sign Cassandra for Elvira. His big concern was, what happens if she dies? I was like, huh? Are you serious? Like, God. Number one, how macabre is that? And I don't know. I didn't think of that. Or in working with NBA Jam, you know, players got traded between when the game was in development and when it was released into the public. I'm sorry. There are no real Seattle Supersonics on the squad that we have because both players have been traded. But here they are still in their uniforms. So I think that, you know, again, I try to minimize it a little bit. But I think in today's world, we're much more questioning, less naive and blind to all of these social issues that have come up, that have complicated, you know, so many different lives. So that, again, going back to it, not wanting to be overly long winded like I typically am. I think it becomes really a balancing act as a potential manufacturer to say, all right, look, do we really want to go forward and work with this entity, this movie, this TV show or whatever else, because there was a producer on the show or it's not right or it wasn't something where there was equal representation of minorities. so we don't want to go there. I mean, think of all the social issues that are now being confronted across the board in our daily lives that impact us. And I think it impacts the whole work process when it comes to licensing. Does that make sense at all to you guys? Or am I overreacting? I knew you were going to have a long answer. I actually just went out and grabbed a bite to eat. I'm sorry I missed that. I'll listen back to it. Marty? Don't be like that. No, no, it's absolutely true. There's so many different variables at the moment that I think is making it harder for people to get a killer license. Really, it's not just pinball. It's not just movies. It's TV. It's music. It's the risk. There's not a lot of risk taking at the moment because everybody needs to have a return on their investment. So you've then got studios that don't want to be risky with their license. So we're not necessarily getting anything that's too creative. And then you've got pinball, which is still not as popular as it used to be. So really getting that license that isn't going to cost too much, is going to sell machines, is going to be commercially viable, I'm sensing are harder to come by. I think that you're right. And as I said, all of those other variables and factors, if they don't come into play and aren't considered, I believe they have to be. Because we get blindsided on a somewhat regular basis of, again, public figures who suddenly you wind up hearing about. And it's like, oh, my God. I did not know that that was the case, and this actor has been, you know, taken off the TV show because of something that they did when they were a teenager or something that they said. You know, this comedian was out there and said something that was inappropriate and now has been banned, and nobody wants to hear from them ever again. It's as if they just write them off and they didn't exist. You know, musicians and what have you, God only knows whatever was going on during their careers. And to Jeff's point, you know, many of them from years back, we already kind of know everything about them. And we either accept it or not. But I think for some of the newer folks, who knows? You know, look, I live in a city called Chicago where, you know, one of the major headlines is R. Kelly. I mean, my God, ask me if anybody really wants to play the theme song from the original Space Jam. That used to be somewhat of an anthem. And now, God forbid, anybody should play that because, you know, it's from that person who is, you know, under prosecution. I think one of the biggest factors, if we're being honest, is those artists in the 70s and 80s didn't have Facebook, didn't have social media. There wasn't camera phones. And maybe, thank goodness. Well, they could get away with murder. I mean, not literally, but figuratively. And most of them did. And, you know, we sit back astounded by the fact that some of them are actually still alive based on whatever their lifestyles were. So I go back to it. I think that there was a greater sense of, I'll call it innocence back then. And you're totally correct. Right now you cannot go anywhere without being captured on somebody's cell phone or whatever. and you're haunted by, I guess, being a public figure and trying to live your life. But Roger, does licensing matter? Because look at the games we've seen that have come out in the last few years. They're being gobbled up, sight unseen. We're not even seeing videos of the game flipped. We have no idea what the sounds, we have no idea what the assets are, yet the LEs just go, go, go, and they might be put onto the secondary market. But kudos to the pinball companies. They're seeing great success in this. I don't know if it's a renaissance. I don't know if we were holed up for 18 months and we needed some more home entertainment. But really, you put out a new product, and if it flips well, great. If it's got a good license, sure, awesome. But the way pinball sales are going right now, I wonder if it matters. Of course it does. Ultimately, it does. I don't understand it. I'd like to, I don't know, actually try on a pair of shoes before I buy it. Um, would have been taking a test drive in a car before I actually purchase it or take a walk through the house before I buy it. Sight unseen. And I think that, you know, with pinball that has become, um, I guess a wild west and, uh, people stepping up to your point, sight unseen, saying, all right, it's a limited edition. They're only going to build X number. I'm going to buy this and I'm going to buy this as an investment. and I can flip it and not flip it in reality, but flip it and get my money back or make a profit versus do I want to add it to my collection and actually play the damn thing? And if I do, do I care how it plays? You know, maybe there was a sense of disappointment on some themes that people stepped up for on the hope that there was a favorite of theirs. I want to buy this. I can let it go And suddenly they have it and it kind of not meeting their expectations So it is a brave new world that is totally outside the boundaries of what I think of as being reasonable and sensible. But I think there's a difference now with pinball because of its limited nature. And I'm not just talking about limited edition, but there's a limited time frame for people to experience it if they want to buy it. A lot of other mediums, if it was a movie, well, you can watch it on Blu-ray later or stream it, whatever. You can still get the same experience another time. When it comes to pinball, when you want a pinball machine in your home, because of the limited nature of these machines, people are jumping on board. Obviously, it's fear of missing out, but it's a fear of missing out on something because it is limited in the nature of its production, at home anyway. No, and you're probably correct with that. And I think that also, and I'll go back to what Jeff had talked about in regard to being a Facebook social media culture, it is an opportunity to be able to show off and say, guess what I have that nobody else has yet? I got it first, or I placed the order, or I'm unboxing it. Oh, my God, let's watch and see this person's experience. And people vicariously living through those individuals who have managed, on whatever level, to be able to afford and have the good luck to be able to be one of the first. So there is something to be said for that. An early adopter, as the term used to be, as opposed to being a straveler. I'm going to suggest that the majority of people playing pinball or maybe even pinball owners themselves don't remember the time when these games, when they were being made, would be put into test locations, especially there in Chicago. And they would work out the kinks. And the reason they would do that, too, is because you could find bugs the more they were played. There wasn't the easy availability to upload new code. so once it went out, you pretty much had to make sure it was working and, oh, you know what, we're getting a lot of stuck balls over here or there's a crash in the code here. Those all had to be worked out. But I really admire that they probably got a lot more information than just those obvious things, too, by testing these games out in location. I'm saddened that we don't have that anymore. Well, you've hit the nail on the head. I was going to ask both of you because it's interesting when you mention it, and especially, Marty, what you were saying in terms of people not wanting to miss out. Do either or both of you believe that if there was a greater presence of pinball out in the real world as it once was, that there would be greater hesitancy and reluctance for people to buy sight unseen without being able to go to their local mall into the game room and play a particular machine or go to the corner bar and play a particular machine, whether it was in early production or, Jeff, to your point, whether it was on test, and suddenly it's like, wow, okay, they're not making these yet, but, you know, I've just gone to the test location, you know, close to me and playing it with my friends, and this looks like it's going to really be a great game. I wouldn't mind buying it. Is the fact that we don't have that same type of accessibility as prevalent as it once was, that the net result has been more people buying sight unseen? My question, relatively. I kind of believe it is. And, like, even if I'm thinking back a few years ago, even Stern would at least show a machine at a show, and then it would be available for purchase. But you would actually see the reveal of a machine physically. Now it's the pictures and the video that you see. They're not even probably going to shows probably because they don't exist, but they're probably not now. So I think it is the lack of being able to experience it means that there's not that opportunity for somebody to play something and say, I don't like it. So people have to put their money down sight unseen because they don't have that point in time to make that decision. Interesting. I tend to agree with you. And I think that, you know, whether it was the collector shows or commercial locations, any place that was out of home where you could encounter a game was the perfect opportunity as opposed to, well, here's this teaser. Here's a short little playthrough. Let's watch this person playing the game and describing it to us and see if that's worthwhile. Well, it's kind of like reading a review in a newspaper or magazine for a movie and you're not really certain and you wind up thinking, well, do I want to trust this person or not? They kind of like the movie or they don't. I've kind of followed them in the past and they seem to have the similar kind of attitude that we have, myself and my family. So we're going to go trust that what they're saying is right and not be disappointed. I guess that would be my question back to you as to how do we get to a different state of where we are now to potentially where are we going to go and I guess that's my question as well where do you see it going? If it is like this and it is sight unseen then do I really need to have even an announcement of a theme? Hi, we have a new game coming up we're going to build 500 who wants it? We're not going to tell you what it is we're not going to tell you who the designer is All we're going to say is we're going to build 500. We're going to start on this date. We're going to end on this date. And the question is, do you want it? Take my money, Roger. Yes. It does seem like the next step further than kind of what we've got, I guess. But I would also say that, I mean, you talk about, you know, how do we change it? It's not pinball. It's like the brand Supreme exists because of FOMO. and people are buying things based on a picture before they've got it and its value is based on exclusivity. And that's what you were saying before. It's the ability to go on social media and say, I've got this and you don't. Right. Yeah, but I mean, it's kind of like buying the mystery basket. I'm on prices. I'm on let's make a deal. Do you want what's in the box or behind door number three? And it's like, huh? Or deep into Monty Hall's left pocket. That always bothers me. I mean, well, yeah, that's for a whole other series of reasons, especially in this day and age. But I'm curious and wondering about where we have transitioned from to where we are now. And ultimately, where are we going and whether or not it is going to become something of, hi, we have this secret package. It's called the pinball machine and it can be yours for X number of dollars. You know, do you want it? Well, what is it exactly? Oh, you're going to love it. I mean, I don't know how you wind up selling vaporware, but maybe that becomes something that becomes part and parcel of the business. A lot of companies have made a lot of money based on not having to deliver a product. That is very true. Yeah, it really is. It really is. I don't know. I don't know whether we could really go to that complete unknown blackout when it comes to theme, like certainly layout. I mean, obviously, I bought, well, I put a deposit down on Iron Maiden before I knew what the layout was because it was theme alone. I think really theme is the last bastion of hope. It's the last thing. I think if you took that away, it wouldn't be successful. But, I mean, you know, in two years' time, I'll probably be eating my words and someone's done it. It depends on your business model, though, because if your business model is you have to sell a lot more than the other companies, then that theme is going to be extremely important. But Roger asked a question earlier. If we had more arcades and more places to play these games, would we be rushing to buy these games sight unseen? I'll add another little kink to that, Roger. I would say two of my most favorite games to play. I enjoy every second I play these games in the last five years would be Iron Maiden and Jurassic Park. Keith, congratulations. Well done. And I'm getting Avengers. But I will never, ever own Jurassic Park or Iron Maiden. Kind of because of what you said, Roger. It's not so much the arcades. I can play those games at several different locations, whether it be friends, collections, tournaments. It's always available. I love it. But in my limited collection of right now 10 games, I don't need to have those games because I can play them. The 10 games I have in my house are games I don't see quite as often. That's interesting because finite space does come into play along with finite finances. I will say in terms of my collection of games, I mean, there's a story behind all of them as to why I cherish them and why I wanted them. And, you know, it's kind of like I'm never going to get rid of them. And there comes a point where it's like, can I fit in another machine somewhere here in the house that I'm looking around? And hopefully Ellen's not listening. But I think I still can without kicking her out. But I guess, you know, that does become one of the important parts to your way of viewing it, which is I have the accessibility to go play those games elsewhere so I don't need it in the house. And I think the big thing now, which is totally different than when it was way back when, was the fact that you do have people that are buying games and buying games of recent vintage. You know, when I started, even going back to the 70s, you know, collectors were looking at games from the 1930s, wood rail games, early 50s, early 60s, Gottliebs. It wasn't as if anybody was stepping up to say, oh, my God, I've got to get this brand new spirit of 76 or even a wizard. I mean, looking at the mid 70s, there wasn't that mindset because and maybe it's closer to your point, Jeff. You could go to the local mall and play those games. You could play it in Aladdin's Castle or at a local bowling alley. By and large, normally, and I guess I can speak from experience because of the reaction to when we moved into our various neighborhoods when the boys were little and people saw the movers unloading pinball machines. Suddenly I was like, hi, neighbor. Here's a peach cobbler. What's going on? And what do you guys have going on here? You know, I mean, suddenly. It certainly wasn't Josh's friends. Let's be honest. It was the machines. It definitely wasn't. And whether or not their friendship was such. And even when their friends came over to play, the boys, because they grew up with it, it wasn't as if the main attraction in the house was them playing pinball. They played video games or they'd be out playing, you know, ball in the backyard or whatever else. Their friends would come over and they would immediately glom on to playing pinball. So, you know, I think that it was the ability to have something in our house that nobody else had and not to the same extent. And I think that, again, that has become a new phenomenon. And thankfully for Stern Pinball in particular, you know, from the late 90s for the next decade or so, the majority of the business was really done for private collectors and enthusiasts. And, you know, little by little trying to resurrect the commercial marketplace. Again, I can just remember growing up because I'm, you know, older, I think, than your sons, but probably not by too much. Oh, it's just because they're incredibly old. They're catching up to me. But I just remember growing up that, and maybe this is a strange thing as well, but to have a pinball machine in a home was the unicorn. It just never happened. And I remember one person I knew I met in high school who did have a machine at home, and I just thought it was the most amazing, incredible, just out there thing that somebody could actually have one of these things in their home. So that's probably what's happening when you've got the truck going and people are saying, Pimble, is this real, a real thing, particularly back then? Yeah, no, trust me. I mean, you're talking without feeling as if I am really as ancient as I am. I remember a very dear friend when I was younger, and we'd go to his house, and they had this lavish basement, and they had an actual full-size pool table and a ping-pong table, and it was just like, oh, my God. This is in their house. Look at this. And it was, you know, revelatory. You know, I remember being very, very young and hoping that at some point in time in my life, I may have a house that's as big and as grand as his so that I, too, can have a pinball or a pool table and a ping pong table. And I think that that is just, you know, the transition of time and the fact that things, you know, kind of change. And I will share just briefly with this story. I remember driving back into that neighborhood where I grew up when I first moved to Chicago with the boys back in 88 and driving back to the neighborhoods where I grew up. And, you know, the change in perspective as you get older, driving through this neighborhood where all the lavish homes were. And I grew up in an apartment building. But the home seems so small compared to what my memory was. My memory was they were mansions. Well, compared to a two-bedroom apartment, yeah, they were mansions. But again, it's all a question of perspective. Roger, stop putting yourself down about getting old. I know it's your birthday this weekend, and happy early birthday. That's kind of why we got you on this program. But yeah, I mean, we certainly— Before I'm no longer somewhat copus mentis, I understand. Yes. We can string together a couple of words that make sense. Thank God. Let's get them. Roger, I've talked to my mother, and she remembers when they got their first TV set. So, I mean, these are things that happen with people of that age. So with you, do you remember the first time you got your first stagecoach? I just try to remember what I fed the horse. I don't know if it was a sugar cube or a pill. Oh, we're so young, Marty, aren't we? We're so young. Well, at least you didn't ask what I felt like when I got my first chariot. No, come on. But going back to those times as well, I want to talk to you about, because I don't know, everybody knows, yes, you saved pinball and you're the licensed guy and you're amazing and you've got famous sons. But also, you've designed some pinball machines in your time as well. And my question is, why have you not done more? Well, there were more that never saw the light of day. A lot of it was timing, opportunity, and, you know, I have had ideas since. I know there's a couple of projects that never really kind of came to fruition that were not pinball machines, but one, the Muppets. Definitely was a starting point to be a pinball machine for a company, Brownlee. My Scooby game, which was a ball drop, was exceptional Yeah, there was still some fire within me to design And just didn't have the opportunity Well, I know that you did, obviously you co-designed Barracora with Steve Epstein Yes Wasn't that just the one machine with Steve? Didn't want to do any more? Well, I mean, Steve, he had, you know, look He had other parts to his life that he was doing Broadway Arcade and we were doing Papa and tournaments and leagues and all the rest of it. The idea of, you know, going back through that arduous task of designing, I think it was like a one-time dream for Steve. Admittedly, I did other games other than Barracora, after Barracora with Cyclops, Global Warfare and working on some others. So for me, there was a greater desire to do more just because of my familiarity with the games, more so than Steve. I think that, you know, we were a great balance in terms of our approach to pinball, historically and otherwise. And, you know, Steve was the one who said, how about galloping hooves for the sound effect on the spinner and sharpshooter? I was like, thank you. God, I was trying to think what I wanted. I got bullets over here, and I have TNT dynamite explosions over here, and I was stuck. stuck so thank you thank you and you know i think that if barricora had been done differently not suggesting that las vegas would have been a slam dunk but uh maybe we would have collaborated another time and truthfully barricora i had a three-game contract with williams and that was the only one that came to life so yeah i mean i still i still have a desire i still think that i can come up with something and i know that josh talks a lot about we should remake cyclops and add stuff here, there, whatever, come up with new rules, because much of what I wound up doing, because I was always very rules-centric in terms of my approach, not only the overall geometry of what I wanted, but very specific in regard to rules, and just ran out of space and memory. Can't do this. Okay, well, let me see what I can accommodate and come up with some type of a compromise. How dare you, Marty, question our guest on what he's done. This man has saved pinball. He has made games. He's gotten licenses. He's written over 20 books. You think if he had more time, he wouldn't have written his next book, which is Sorry, I'm a Failed Parent. There's just not enough time. That's true. There's just not enough hours in the day, especially knowing how I am, guys. Look, it's very difficult to write an entire page that's just one sentence. Disappointment. Total and complete. Adject. Roger, I can't thank you enough for being on this program. I know Marty and I are thrilled every time we get to talk to you. I want to apologize for when you were on the reach-arounds and Marty played the music off and that was not my doing. So not fair, Mr. Editor. That was all Marty and just, you know, he's a stickler. I understand. We will do this again. For those that don't know, Roger and I talked on Wednesday. We were recording this on Sunday night just to catch up, and we knew we were going to be doing this on Sunday. It was really just to find out about, okay, yeah, we're going to talk about this, this, this, and this. That phone call, which wasn't recorded, three hours long. Much more interesting than this one, I have to admit. No, no. We've got some good nuggets here. God, the secrets that we talked about. He says that he didn't record it, but we know he did. I didn't. It was on my cell phone. No, no. That's okay. I have the recording. He does, too. Roger, all the best to you, to Ellen, to the family, even those boys. And I hope I see you at Expo. I know we've got to make sure everyone's safe and all that kind of stuff, but maybe by October we will be. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. And to you guys, truthfully, and all the people who listen, please keep safe. Stay out of harm's way. We'll get through this. There's light at the end of the tunnel on the other side. And just be kind to yourselves. So I send you both truly my best and to your families as well. And God willing, Expo or at some other point in time, we will all get a chance to get together. and we'll play some pinball. I would enjoy doing that. That would be amazing. Have a great birthday this weekend, Roger. I thank you kindly, guys. We're going to try. It's just another year. Oh, my God. Just shock me again. That's a lot of candles. You might want to call the fire department before you blow up that cake. You better believe it. That cake's going to melt. Anyway, be well. All my best. Take care. Thanks, Roger. Thanks, mate. Thanks, Roger. So there you go, everybody. The legend, that is, Roger Sharp. What did we learn, Jeff? I not a big advocate of these things but apparently those electric dog collars really work He was good He was like great to the point that was really effective i mean we talking a regular sized episode this fortnight so i i think we should be pretty proud of what we've been able to do with that collar i was expecting like five hours of editing or you know multiple shows just to get a few answers out but roger god bless him you know no look he gave us the goods the thing of it is i I felt really bad because, obviously, I was recording it during work hours, which everybody was fine with, but I was just still conscious that everybody's actually doing proper work. So, I mean, I could have talked to him for hours. And I know you said that you did. I do because he's just got such good insight and a good story for everything. And, you know, the answer's just off the top of his head because he's just full of so much people knowledge. It's just great to talk to him, and I just felt bad that I had to cut it short. But, oh, well, we'll have to just get him back on again. Well, you recorded that part while you were at work, and we're recording this second part. Where are you right now? I am at work. Do you live there? I feel like it sometimes. You just bought a new house, for crying out loud. Have you been there? No, and I do live closer, so that's easier. Here's the thing, and Ryan touched on it a while ago. Ryan touched a lot of things. It does. The thing of it is this. It is so enjoyable that it doesn't feel like long hours and long days and long weeks because I'm choosing to do it because I'm enjoying it so much. So, yeah, I'm here and that's fine. This is going back many, many years ago, but when I first started radio, so I would have been 22 years old. So a couple of years, let's just say that. I remember our professors telling us, hey, if you've got a boyfriend or girlfriend and they're not in the program, you might not see them. Get used to working 60 hours in this class, in the studios, and that's just what it's going to be for the next couple of years. And it was a little bit of a shock before you knew what you were getting into. It was 100% accurate, but like yourself, you just didn't care. It was how long it took to do the job and everything was new and you were learning. And I'd imagine a lot of that is the same for Haggis. I mean, there's got to be a huge learning curve. I know you joked about the folding press and some of these other things you had to learn, but I don't know what kind of skills you had from your previous job or jobs that you're applying here. Yeah, look, so my background really is management, but it's project management. It's also marketing and design. So I'm leaning on a lot of that when it comes to game design. Rule design really is drawing on my, this may be a bit of a weird thing, some people might relate to this, But my data management background, I actually manage one of the, well, actually the biggest business management database in Australia. And to understand data and data flows really lends itself to rules and rule flows and then scoring and scoring flows. So I am drawing a lot of that experience. So there you go. Sounds like some good things coming out of Australia there. So I'm excited for you. I know you are very busy, but look at us. Back-to-back shows, two weeks in a row. And obviously, Roger loves what he does, and we just have to thank him again for coming on. He's pretty amazing. Hey, what's that noise I hear in the background? What's that funny smell? Is Greg Silby there with you? Yeah, hello. Jeff, how you doing? You're on the podcast. Don't think this is not being cut out. You're on. No, come on. Cut me out. I've got nothing worthwhile to say. don't bore your listeners with this with this rubbish that doesn't stop us every two weeks having nothing to say that's true how are things yeah pretty good how's my long hair brother going you growing it long i hear you oh it's super super long and the funny thing is i have to do a work function this friday for the first time in what 18 months and my son goes to me are you gonna cut your hair i'm like i've got an appointment but it's not for a couple weeks You're going to go like that? And I'm like, you're damn right I am. Are hairdressers open there? Because I think they still shut here, aren't they? Well, my hairdresser's actually almost two hours away from me. So it was in one of the cities in which I worked. So I haven't been back to that city in a long time. So once we go back to work in, say, September, then I'll be there all the time. But I said, I'll make this special trip for my fans like Marty who wants it cut. He really does. Fuck it. He's just jealous. I agree. Yep. I'm standing strong with you on the long hair. Yeah, good. Keep it long. Long and proud, Jason. Does your wife like it? Your long hair? Does my wife like your long hair? That's a given. I meant yours. She's never said that she hates it, but you know, you can just tell sometimes. So you think she doesn't like it? My wife loves it. Does she? Yeah. It's the new man she's been waiting for for years. Yeah. Well, that sort of says a lot, doesn't it? Hey, every day is a lucky day for me. That's the way I look at it. Very nice. Now I'm going to pass you back to Marty because I'm going to pack up and go home. Thanks, Greg. Good chatting, buddy. You know, we forgot to talk about that movie they're making about Roger. That movie they're making about Roger? Please tell me about this. And I'm genuinely asking that because I don't know about this movie. There was some rumblings a while back that they were going to make a movie about Roger Sharp's life. And from everything I've heard, it's still a go. So watch for that in the theaters soon. But, I mean, we need these podcasts. We need our Roger fixes now. We can't wait for the movie. We need something now so we can hear all these great tales. We can't have them on every week. So what are we going to do? Well, it's good timing because that leads us to this week's sponsor of the week. In a world where one man's single action can change the course of history. We know the story of how Roger Sharp saved pinball, but that's just the beginning. This is a man who's beaten the best, including Father Time. He's laughed in the face of COVID-19, just like he did during the Spanish flu. If the Titanic couldn't take him down when he was a teenager, nothing can. It's the new TV series everyone's talking about. Roger saves the world! See Roger utilize his skills in other areas, like when he performed miracles in the delivery room. This baby isn't breathing! Roger, we need a slap save. See Roger save everything from baseball games to saving you money on car insurance. Plus, you'll see Roger with his toughest task ever, his legacy. I'm worried. Young Josh will never grow up to be a pinball champion. Oh, Ellen, don't worry, honey. I know how we can save this. We'll just have another son. Roger saves the world! Marty, I can't imagine anything's happened other than you sitting your ass at Haggis. What has happened over the last single week for you? I will tell you something new that's old but is still new. Go ahead. I streamed. I actually streamed for the first time since January. When I say I streamed, I've been on other people's streams, but this is the first stream at home. Why didn't you tell me? I would have watched it. Oh, a couple of things. I wouldn't want people to watch it for, what can I say, for some of the language is probably the first thing I would say. Because it was the first time that I've streamed, it's the first time I've gotten really drunk this year, in fact. And also, my skill, just gone, gone, gone, gone. And I was playing Star Trek. You know, the game that I've played a million times couldn't hit the shots. Even the most basic shots. Because you know everyone says how the shots are really easy on Star Trek. Could not get the shots. Okay, I find the shots easy on Star Trek. But I find the game fast enough that it's still difficult. Yeah, I was not even getting the shots is the problem. But you streamed. I've been watching a lot of Oz, Eric, and Hashman and Danger Ray. I miss Dr. Curly Tech. Hope Stacey gets back on. But that's good that you're back on again And so this is at the new place Ah, damn it, I wanted to see it Yeah, well, you'll get to see it Every Sunday night, Australian times Yeah, well, I think I deleted it Ew But every Sunday night, Australian time? Every Sunday night, which will be Sunday morning, North America That's good, I'm excited Yeah, Melbourne Silver Bowl, watch it It's a bit of fun The good news of it really is that I am People are wanting to put some machines in my house so I can stream it. So my collection is going to grow, which I'm very happy about. Do you know any of the machines you're going to be getting? No, because I don't want to sort of specify which machines I want. I'm just happy for people to give me machines that I haven't played for a while or games that haven't been streamed for a while. Would you say no to a game if somebody offered a title and you went, ugh? I don't think I would. I honestly don't think I would because I think you know with me, I have played so much pinball, obviously a while ago now, but played so much pinball that I tend to gravitate towards the oddballs and the rarer type games and games that are sort of forgotten. So I don't think I would turn away a game, even if somebody offered me a Thunderbirds. I'd still accept it and stream it. No, I would. I would. I just wouldn't expect I wouldn't have much fun streaming it, but it's still fun just to do things different. I, you know, if you look at the streams now, and this is not me knocking any of the streamers, but there's only so many times I can see Mandalorian or Led Zeppelin or all the recent games. This isn't me knocking the other streamers, but go on. No, that's not true. It's more the games. It's that I get that when a new game comes out, everybody streams it. The problem with us, and you know this, I don't like to watch streams of a game before I play it. And we get the games three months after everybody else. So by that time, it's just been streamed to death. I got to tell you, I'm the same with you. And as excited as I am for all of the new games that have come out over the last few years, I find I don't watch the streams until I get my hands on it. But I did get my hands on another machine. myself and one in a distributor. So I finally got my Oli pinball machine, the Stern Classic game. Oh, I do like that one. I love that game. It's the first time I ever beat Zach Sharp. Okay. There haven't been many times since, and it was only one game, but damn it all, I beat him. Yep. I'll buy the game. Memento of the occasion, for sure. And while I was in Toronto, I went to see the distributor there, Player One, and they had a Mandalorian Pro in there and I definitely wanted to flip that. I really, really enjoyed it and I was texting Dwight that I kind of knew what I was doing without watching any streams, without knowing any rules. It was laid out and that's to me, I'm not trying to knock anybody, but a lot of games, you have no idea what you're doing when you get behind that machine and start flipping. With Mandalorian, I kind of had an idea. That's important. Absolutely. Feedback I've had so far from everyone that's played it is it's actually a really enjoyable game. And I think what's really happened here is there's a really good synergy between the layout, the theme, and the rules. I knew I could play it and have some fun. Knew how to start a multiball. Didn't really understand the foundry much, but that would obviously come with experience. And I think you get the rifle for add a ball. But, I mean, the layout was pretty easy to see the shots. It was really well lit. And I certainly enjoyed the call-outs, the sounds. The art, my goodness. I like everything about it. And I did talk to my son. I said, look, I know we said we're getting an Avengers premium, but that might take a while. Should we get a Mandalorian right now? And he's like, well, as long as we get the Avengers. I'm like, oh. Okay. But I liked it that much. I really did. I still haven't played the Zeppelin. Are there not any Zeppelins in Australia or very few? There are, but... Hi, Ian. We are just coming out of a lockdown today. Our fifth lockdown. and it finished last night at midnight. So we've got limited capacity at places. So I'm not even sure whether it is. There's a bar here called Pixel Alley, which I think may have Led Zeppelin. But it's one of those ones where if you're playing pinball, if you're not playing pinball, you need to be seated. So it's limited. I think only 25 people in the premises. So I don't know. I am too busy, really, to get out and do that when places are open. But I just kind of want to wait for normality so I can just take my time playing a game. For sure. And even the two times I flipped the Mandalorian Pro, I was like, OK, I'm just scratching the surface here. I really want to play more of that. And the other game I actually was playing was Turtles Pro. I haven't really played that much since it came out. And I like the shots on it. I'm looking forward to something like Expo, should I be able to cross the border. Thanks, Ian. And by the way, for those just joining us, Ian sent us an email a while back saying, can you guys quit talking about the pandemic so I can listen again? So now we're blaming the whole thing on him. And I think he likes the sarcasm. But anyway, Expo is where I'm really looking forward to going to if the border opens up, if capacity, all that kind of stuff. roger talked about it too i mean i asked roger you're gonna go to expo it's in this town there and he's like uh it depends when is expo it's halloween weekend i don't know when that's that you don't have halloween there oh we do we i think we've talked about this before halloween you know we've always sort of had trick-or-treating but it's never been a big event like it is and i know that because years ago it would have been i think 2009 when visited my brother who was living in san Francisco and just happened to be there for Halloween. Halloween is crazy in the U S it's like crazy. Like everybody dresses up. Whereas here it's just for kids. Well, it is just for kids here, but I think as the kids grow up, myself included, you're like, oh shit, that was fun. I wouldn't mind doing something maybe a little more adult themed or funny. So, and then if you have kids, you know, I, I remember taking Brady out and he was obsessed with Thomas the tank and he was like three or four years old and he had this little Thomas outfit. and he was walking around trick-or-treating and maybe he was hot or he didn't like how it felt and he's like, Dad, you wear it. So I had to put this thing around my head as I'm trick-or-treating with him just in his plain clothes knocking on doors, hey, give me your candy. So I think that's how it started. You did it for the kids and then you just kept that lie going and just did it for yourself. I think the Halloween movie was more popular when it came out than Halloween itself. But now, now it's getting really popular here. So you're saying things are opening up there. Well, sadly, some things are closing here, but it's not Ian related or pandemic related. I feel it's probably Ian related. Well, Ian, you know what? We should look into that. The Museum of Pinball, which you and I have been to a few times, home of Indisc over the last several years, auctioning everything off. That's a tough pill to swallow. I mean, it's certainly the right thing to do if the owner feels that's his only option. It's just sad for the rest of us, kind of like when Pinburgh closed and when Papa kind of had to sell off the games. I think we take these things for granted, how lucky we are that we get to participate at these venues and play all these wonderful machines. But someone's got to foot the bill. Yeah. We kind of throw our hands up like, hey, we'll pay admission. But there's a lot more than just that and the one or two times you go a year. Yeah, agreed. I'm really sad about it. I mean, it was my first tournament experience overseas. It was the very first place I went to was Banning, and I went to Indisc. And I remember walking in, the first person I saw was Keith Elwin. I was just like, oh my God, that is Keith Elwin there in front of me. And then the second person I spoke to was Carl. And Carl was incredibly friendly and sort of just introduced me to this. and I was just this crazy Aussie in front of all these people just being really quite annoying and a little bit starstruck, if I'm honest. But I just remember that place so fondly. I mean, I even did an article for Oz Retro Gamer on my experience, not only the pinball side, but there was a second article I did on all the arcade machines that were there as well. I mean, we're pinball fans, so there's so many pinballs, but you go to the other hall, there's all these arcade games. Billy Mitchell was there. Like him or hate him, doesn't matter. Billy Mitchell was there with his glistening Marc Silk hair and his crisp, sharp suit. And you took a picture and said to your hairdresser, I want that. I want that. I want to be that. They want that. And they said, oh, the Teolas. The Teolas 2021. Okay, smart guy. You did this when Todd McCulloch was on the show, and we had a boat with only one life jacket. Who was he saving, you or me? And I'm now swimming. Same for you. You went to Indus the first time. You saw Keith and then Carl, both great people. They're both listening to the show, as we know. You can only save one of them. Gun to your head. Give me the answer. Is it Carl or is it Keith? Carl. Sorry, did I have to pause? Was there supposed to be some mood music before I said Carl? Carl. Okay, okay. So let's crack that egg open a little. Why do you hate Keith Elwin? Why do you wish him dead? Go on. It's true. I do. But I'm going to keep why I want him to die to myself. But it's absolutely true. If I like Carl, I therefore must hate Keith. That's how it works because it's binary world. Oh, is that Ryan? What? Remember Ryan? It's not binary Ryan? Wow. Well, it's not like Keith's got a new game coming up, and we might have wanted him to come on this program. But because you cannot stand his very breath. Shit. I can't stand the sound of his name. When people mention it, I go, that man is dead to me. Okay. We've still got two weeks for guest number 40. Scratch that one. Wow. Carl, are you busy in two weeks? Your best friend Marty's looking for... Wow. That's a tough one. I don't want to have to make that. Is the right answer, can they both live and I'll just jump over? Fuck that. I'm saving myself. I'll throw them both over. So you're going to be streaming again. We are back on our regular schedule every two weeks. I'm here in my home. Marty is living in the Haggis office. I'm in my home. That's going to be the funny thing just to stream to finally see you not in that office. I know. Maybe I'll just stream from the office. And please, please, dear God, if you have a Thunderbirds game, please loan it to Marty. Please, I beg of you. Do you want to know how shitty that game is? Jermaine and Raymond and maybe even Dave Stewart, you know, all those three guys when they were living in Seattle, they were up in Edmonton and it was on display. And we were trying to find a way to make the game fun. And you know with The Walking Dead, you can play all kinds of different things. That guy you hate, Keith Elwin, was just on with Hot Nudge and they were playing some Walking Dead games and it was really fun. And he goes, I'm just going to go for walkers. And, of course, that's exciting. That's a fun game. You can play walker dollars. So we thought we would do that with Thunderbirds. Okay, should we play international rescue dollars? It was so painful to play. And then we were bagging the game big time, just like, what a piece of shit. The whole time, the guy who bought the game was standing right behind us. Oh, his name was Ian. Anyway, that's it. All right. Are we done? We're done. That's it. We'll see you in two weeks. Thanks, guys. Speak soon.