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Episode 420: Jason Werdrick

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·18m 19s·analyzed·Jun 5, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Jason Werdrick reflects on 32 years as 'The Kid' of pinball, evolving tournaments, and legendary friendships.

Summary

Jeff Teols interviews Jason Werdrick, a legendary competitive pinball player with 32 years in the scene who earned the nickname 'The Kid' as a teenager and remains a top-50 world-ranked player. The conversation covers his early tournament experiences in the 1990s, his collection of classic pinball machines and Transformers memorabilia, the evolution of competitive pinball from smaller fields to modern high-volume events, and his personal relationships with key figures like the late Lyman Sheats, whose legacy lives on through code in games like Spider-Man.

Key Claims

  • Jason Werdrick has played competitive pinball for 32 years and is now over 50 years old

    high confidence · Jeff states 'you're now in your 32nd year of playing competitive pinball just a little over the age of 50'

  • Werdrick has won 81 out of nearly 700 competitive events he's played in

    high confidence · Jeff cites 'almost 700 events you've played in you've won 81 of them'

  • Werdrick was the first ever Classics Target Match Play winner at Indisc, beating Josh Sharp in second

    high confidence · Jeff: 'you're the first ever classics target match play winner. I want to point out you beat out Josh Sharp'

  • Werdrick finished second place three years in a row at the IFPA World Championships (1992, 1993, 1994), each time losing to a different player

    high confidence · Werdrick: 'I played 92, 93, and 94 and got second place three years in a row'

  • There are now five major pinball championships in 2025, including the return of Pinberg and PAPA

    high confidence · Jeff: 'it's nice that there are five majors in 2025 that happened last year for the first time ever in fact with the return of pinberg and the return of papa'

  • Werdrick's first purchased pinball machine was Getaway, acquired from the Arizona Pinball Show, and he still owns it

    high confidence · Werdrick: 'My first game that I purchased was Getaway. And that came from the Arizona Pinball Show. And I still have it today'

  • Werdrick has a Transformers collection of over 1,000 displayed figures with additional packed away

    high confidence · Werdrick: 'I probably have over 1,000 of them displayed, and I don't know how many still packed away'

  • Test locations like Town and Country in Chicago had Williams, Gottlieb, and premier games available for testing in the early 1990s

    medium confidence · Werdrick: 'There's this one place called Town and Country that adjusts for fun location, and there was a Test site for Williams Valley and Gottlieb Premier'

Notable Quotes

  • “With this pro rating and everything, it's a little different. And, you know, you have to do well, too, at some of these big events to help with that. But just keep playing and try and do your best.”

    Jason Werdrick — Reflects on modern competitive challenges and the difficulty of qualifying for major championships in the current ranking system

  • “Right now you have to keep playing like the entire time so it's just so many so many more players now and higher level of competition”

    Jason Werdrick — Illustrates the dramatic expansion of competitive pinball participation and intensity compared to earlier eras

  • “He just stood out right away while playing that first IFPA World Championships... And then, you know, getting to know him over the years and other things besides pinball. He had a passion for cars, too, and whatnot.”

    Jason Werdrick (about Lyman Sheats) — Personal reflection on Lyman Sheats' impact and legacy in the pinball community

  • “They're learning that right away. So that's a difference maker, too. Envious, again, is the key to this. But I'm also in awe. And we, the older generation, we learn from the kids.”

    Jason Werdrick — Acknowledges how modern players learn advanced flipper techniques at younger ages via video, contrasting with self-taught generation

  • “I probably have over 1,000 of them displayed, and I don't know how many still packed away.”

    Jason Werdrick — Illustrates the depth of his Transformers collecting passion, parallel hobby alongside pinball

Entities

Jason WerdrickpersonJeff TeolspersonLyman SheatspersonJosh SharppersonRaymond DavidsonpersonEscherpersonJason ZollerpersonArvid FliegerpersonStoneperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Chicago hosting dual major collectible conventions in 2025: TFCon (Transformers) and Pinball Expo, with intentional schedule separation to allow cross-attendance by collectors with multiple hobbies

    medium · Werdrick: 'They're actually having one in Chicago, thankfully not at the same time as Pinball Expo this year... TFCon... The last time it was coincided with the same weekend as Expo'

  • ?

    event_signal: Indisc (January annual championship) now operating with multiple specialized formats including Classics Target Match Play and High Stakes Champion bracket, indicating maturation of tournament structure

    high · Werdrick won inaugural Classics Target Match Play at Indisc, beating Josh Sharp; was previous year High Stakes Champion

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Generational respect and knowledge-sharing between veteran and younger competitive players; older generation learning from video analysis of modern play

    high · Werdrick: 'we, the older generation, we learn from the kids... watch the videos'; Teols notes envy but also 'awe' at youth performance

  • ?

    community_signal: Charity tournament infrastructure (PAPA 21/Foundation for 988 Suicide and Crisis Hotline) continues as legacy mechanism for honoring deceased figures while supporting mental health causes

    high · Jeff: 'Papa 21... great charity event for the 988 Foundation for the Suicide and Crisis Hotline'; connection to Lyman Sheats' memory

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Younger players (under 21: Escher #1, Jason Zoller #2, Arvid Flieger #3 at Indisc qualifying) dominating tournament rankings despite veterans like Raymond Davidson (32) and Stone (40s) remaining competitive

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.055

0:00
it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teals you can find everything on pinballprofile.com we're on twitter and x and instagram at pinball profile great facebook group as well you can email pinballprofile at gmail.com and if you'd like to show your support on patreon don't worry the show will always be free but it certainly helps with expenses and whatnot thank you to all those wonderful people that contribute including lua w rodney c bart v colin m derrick s and others so if you watch any kind of competitive pinball nowadays you see that it's all about the kids but there is an original the kid he is here right now jason werderick not a kid anymore but still the nickname stands that's correct jeff how you doing very good very good it's good to see you and i say the kid because that was the nickname when you were playing you're now in your 32nd year of playing competitive pinball just a little over the age of 50 so that tells you you were a teen back then and were there many kids playing back then uh there were but uh i mean they had kids divisions too like like 16 and stuff but uh back then they had an open division and a pin master and i just went ahead straight for the the pin master i felt i had that ability so that's a bit of a leap of faith but obviously paid off you're one of the best players still to this day i mean top 50 in the world whether it's the open ranking the the pro ranking you've won multiple state championships and i looked at some of your stats almost 700 events you've played in you've won 81 of them that's a pretty good ratio and especially with how big pinball has grown that's the thing for me you know you and i are close in age and i didn't know about pinball back then now you're in obviously the mecca of pinball in chicago but it had to be nice i'm wondering what it was like back in the day when there were so fewer players so with fewer players i mean going to some of these shows you didn't have to play in the tournament see like the whole time if you put up a good score say um you could you could just relax the whole rest of the show enjoy the show i mean even we used to do the arizona show and you know be in the pool you know most of the time you know you have the 115 degree weather they have they're down there so but yeah it was it was a little more easy you know right right now you have to keep playing like the entire time so it's just so many so many more players now and higher level of competition that's you can see it at the show here now at indisc yeah we're here at indisc right now where you've had success even recently too you're the first ever classics target match play winner. I want to point out you beat out Josh Sharp in there. He came second in that. And then the year before, you were the high stakes champ. So these events with card-based format and just the way the shows are now, unless it's a limited entry, you've got to go, go, go. You're never safe. Correct, correct. Like this time around, I didn't even play classics after just last year getting qualifying one out from getting in and then number 40 qualifier for last year and in this. But this year, I felt I played fine. It's just the The one game got me, especially my last card at the end. But I felt like I played pretty well this weekend. You saw the kids. We alluded to that earlier. I think Escher was number one. Jason Zoller was number two in qualifying. Arvid Flieger was number three. All young, young men, all under the age of 21 years old.

  • Werdrick has flipper codes in multiple games including Spider-Man and references in Dwight games from early testing feedback

    high confidence · Werdrick: 'I actually got to have some of my own flipper codes or Hi Jason in the display on the Dwight games'

  • Raymond Davidson won PAPA at age 32, and Stone is in his 40s and remains competitive at high qualifying levels

    high confidence · Werdrick: 'Raymond Davidson won Papa, and he's 32... Stone is... in his 40s... he was up there in high qualifying'

    • Keith (Stern)
    person
    Roger Sharpperson
    Brian Eddyperson
    Ed Boonperson
    Walt Woodperson
    Neil Schatzperson
    Jack Dangerperson
    John Borgperson
    Lyman (Stern programmer)person
    Jim Belsitoperson
    Indiscevent
    IFPA World Championshipsevent
    Arizona Pinball Showevent
    Spider-Man (Stern)game
    Getaway (Williams)game
    X-Men (Stern)game

    high · Jeff and Werdrick discuss age advantage of young players due to hand-eye coordination, reaction time, endurance; older players still relevant but require more selective event participation

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Stern Pinball remaking classic titles (X-Men) rather than pursuing entirely new design directions, suggesting value in revisiting proven game designs

    medium · Jeff: 'Recently, Stern did a remake of X-Men... I like that they're remaking some of these titles'; Werdrick expresses interest in potential Transformers remake

  • ?

    event_signal: Five major pinball championships confirmed for 2025, including return of Pinberg and PAPA after hiatus, representing expansion of premier tournament calendar

    high · Jeff: 'five majors in 2025 that happened last year for the first time ever in fact with the return of pinberg and the return of papa and uh again the other ones are the indisc right here the ifpa open the european pinball championship'

  • $

    market_signal: Rare/vintage games (Kingpin, Deadly Weapon) now feature prominently in major tournament selection, driven by streaming interest and historical preservation efforts; previously difficult-to-access games becoming tournament staples

    medium · Jeff praises Indisc for including Capcom Kingpin; Deadly Weapon filmed at IFPA Worlds; both games generating significant video interest post-tournament for gameplay research

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Lyman Sheats' legacy institutionalized through programmer tributes (flipper codes) embedded in multiple Stern games (Spider-Man, others), preserving memory of deceased industry figure

    high · Werdrick: 'we have his code in so many great games, legendary games. That legacy will live on for sure'; Lyman's code appears in Spider-Man and games dating back to Dwight era

  • ?

    technology_signal: Video documentation of tournament play (streaming and YouTube) now serves as primary learning resource for advanced flipper techniques, replacing traditional in-person training and location play

    high · Werdrick: 'they're learning all those skills... They're learning that right away... with all the videos out there'; Jeff notes Indisc streams will become 'go-to videos' for game-specific strategies

    • 3:35
    Are we done? I mean, Raymond Davidson won Papa, and he's 32. Right. Is that the limit, you think? I don't know. I mean, still, I mean, I don't know how old Stone is, you know, but he is. He's in his 40s. You know, he was up there in high qualifying, you know, against the kids. So, I mean, Keith's still relevant when he plays and everything. So, can't count us old-timers out just yet, you know. But they do have, you know, pretty good advantage with the hand-eye at that young age. The reaction, the endurance, you know, we get tired standing up for all the backs. I don't want to do too many different, you know, that's why I only concentrate on the open this time. But I do want to try and win a classics at one point, you know. So it all depends on how you're qualifying hard. If you qualify good early then you know you can do some classics It nice that there are five majors in 2025 that happened last year for the first time ever in fact with the return of pinberg and the return of papa and uh again the other ones are the indisc right here the ifpa open the european pinball championship and then the the tough one to get to is the ifpa world championship so you got to be basically the best in your country or the best, let's say, top 80 in the world. That's probably getting harder and harder to get in. It is, yes. With this pro rating and everything, it's a little different. And, you know, you have to do well, too, at some of these big events to help with that. But just keep playing and try and do your best. And, you know, I'm going to Austria this year and bringing the family afterwards. So that'll be a great time. Looking forward to not only the pinball, but then, you know, visiting another country. And we actually have some family tree in Budapest. So we'll check out Budapest while we're there. So, yeah. Good for you. Now, I brought up the majors. Not to bring up a sore spot. I always kid Josh Sharp about not winning a major. If he ever does, Jason, you know the target's on you. Because of how long you've been playing and you've been close. What's the closest? The closest was my first year playing the Worlds, which was the second annual IFPA in 91. So I played 91, 92. I'm sorry, I didn't play 91. I played that in 92, 93, and 94 and got second place three years in a row. So that was losing to somebody different each year.
    6:11
    It's tough. Yeah. But, by the way, there's no shame in second, even whether I joke with Josh or with yourself. I mean, everyone would dream to get that high. But when you're that close, I mean, it just, it could still happen. Yes. Oh, yeah. It just gets harder. It does get harder, yes. Oh, yeah. And the newer games and whatnot, there's a big learning curve. A new game comes out. Before we started recording this, you and I were watching a game, not newer, but one you really don't see. And that's what I love about Indus. They had the Capcom, believe it or not, Kingpin game in. And you were watching Walt Wood and some other players go at it. Raymond Davidson was there. I love seeing that in competition. It was unique. I can't say I've ever played it. You have played it a long time. Have you played it in competition? I've played it. Actually, I've played it on location when I was at Test. There's this one place called Town and Country that adjusts for fun location, and there was a Test site for Williams Valley and Gottlieb Premier.
    7:09
    So they actually had a kingpin. Yeah, it's been a long time. I don't see it too often. It doesn't get really used in competitions. And so, yeah, I just enjoyed watching the competition on that game playing before doing this interview. Tell me about those test locations because that is something I'm envious of because of the proximity of Chicago and all the manufacturers there. That was a common thing back in the day, wasn't it? Yeah, they would test a different couple of arcade locations, some bowling alleys, and even at some bars too all over the Chicagoland area.
    7:49
    But how did you know about this? Because there's no Internet back then. Yeah, no, I kind of knew from just going to these places and seeing. They would always have it first. Even actually from playing a pinball league early on in 91 with Roger Sharp, Brian Eddy, Ed Boon, all these guys, and telling me about some of the locations. And then just going to these locations, playing the game, telling the programmer about these bugs. It actually got me to have some of my own flipper codes or Hi Jason in the display on the Dwight games and so on. Not only that, too, a lot of people own Spider-Man, too. So you look at the defaults, you'll see your name right there. Yeah, Lyman put that in for me. Actually, I'm a wrestling fan, and so he did that in the Stern Spider-Man. And pinball is one of the high scores there. So it's the battle royal high score, I should say. So it's really neat when they do that kind of stuff. And I think they do that today, too. Yeah. You know, so I think you got some special code or something.
    8:58
    Keith called me before, I forget, I think it was Avengers came out. And he asked me what my player code was which is R red Okay I know I got gray hair but I was once a redhead Anyway so he goes what your code and i just jokingly said what are you doing an action button hero and he goes oh that a great idea and he so now whenever you see action button here anyway i thought it was pretty fun and then yeah you get the odd flipper code there that the guys put in to see a pinball profile logo it means a lot and i say that because you know you're on that spider-man game freddie Richardson's on that as well. But Lyman was somebody you knew very, very well. I know the Papa 21. Nice to come back. Yes. And great charity event for the 988 Foundation for the Suicide and Crisis Hotline. But tell us what Lyman meant to you and some of your great memories. You know, he was a really good friend. Knew him from early on. I think the first tournament I saw him play in was 92 IFPA Worlds when they had Getaway Adams. and Hook and... Wow, some classics. Yeah, yeah. So, but watching Lyman, he actually, you know, blow up an Adams family. Like, he found one in the room that actually hit the center ramp and wasn't scoring bear kicks, just scoring side ramp because one of the switches was out. So he had that value up to $10 million a shot and just letting the ball drop down in the double in lane and keep doing it over and over and getting over a billion points, you know. So, yeah, he just stood out right away while playing that first IFPA World Championships.
    10:35
    And then, you know, getting to know him over the years and other things besides pinball. He had a passion for cars, too, and whatnot. I like, too. Big golfer, too. We certainly miss him, but we'll never forget him. And I love that we have his code in so many great games, legendary games. That legacy will live on for sure. And again, the great thing that the group, Penny and everyone's doing with the Papa Foundation. So very, very nice. Also back in the day, I know you have a lovely collection now, but that wasn't the norm. Like there weren't that many people that owned a lot of pinball machines, certainly more than one if they had one. That changes things a little bit today. But, you know, you had to find these games on location. Again, being in Chicago was very beneficial. But tell us what your first game was and how old were you at the time? Well, my first game that I purchased was Getaway. And that came from the Arizona Pinball Show. And I still have it today. And it was a home-use only game. And that's just by one game that will never leave my collection. Sentimental and a great game, too. Yeah. And then a couple other games I've won over the years. I actually won a WF World Rumble, but then I sold it and bought a brand new Shadow in the Box at that time, which I still have today. And also winning a Congo at one of the Arizona events and trading that at the distributor for a Giant-O-Monic, which I still have also today. And, yeah, I mean, just accumulating for some of those, you know, winning some of these tournaments. And that was a big draw for me going over from arcade to pinball, because I like both arcade games too. I was a big Street Fighter player, Mortal Kombat and all that. But pinball was more rewarding as far as winning games, trips and whatnot because there wasn't much video game tournaments back then. I see some different flipper skills and whatnot today. Were those always around before? We know of Neil Schatz and he used to do those kind of alley passes where you'd go to the end of the flipper and go up the in lane you need. Perfect for something like Alien Star where you want to light the spinner. So we have the Schatz shot. have there been shots that have just kind of, ooh, that wasn't around before? Were tap passes always around, or were people doing that, or the drop catches? The drop catches were primarily the thing in our generation. The live catches kind of came on accident, and then tap passes.
    13:05
    You know, I didn't have access to the early ballets and stuff, so I guess that was even a thing earlier on than when I started playing in the early 90s. So even in the probably 80s, tap passing was a thing. So I never learned that until later on because I never, until I had access to a friend's Paragon and got to practice it, that was a move I have no problems doing or even in tournament play. Yeah, I mean, if you're playing a Paragon, if you're playing a Harlem Globetrotter, these are skills you definitely need. That tap pass is essential on these. But harder to do kind of on the new games unless you Nick Stein Right right Yeah honestly I can even do them on the newer games You know these kids are doing it on the newer games It like wow you know they actually with all the videos out there they're learning all those skills that I learned at a later age. They're learning that right away. So that's a difference maker, too.
    14:02
    Envious, again, is the key to this. But I'm also in awe. And we, the older generation, we learn from the kids. Right. We watch the videos, you know, i.e. pinball is going to have a ton from Indisc here. There's a great, I mean, there are so many games that we're watching right now that are going to be the go-to videos for certain games based on the quality of play here. Very true. That's why I wanted to watch the kingpin that comes up in a tournament again. If it wasn't streamed, you know, I got to see, you know, how it was played. Deadly Weapon is another. Deadly Weapon, yeah. That's one I tried to research before coming here. I remember seeing it at IFPA Worlds last year at Jim Belsito's, and I couldn't find no video on it. There's lots now.
    14:47
    Yeah. Recently, Stern did a remake of X-Men, the Uncanny X-Men, the great Jack Danger game. And we saw the old game before from John Borg. I like that they're remaking some of these titles. I would have to think you would be dying for a remake of Transformers. Tell us your Transformers fix.
    15:10
    So, you know, I grew up watching Transformers and had the toys as a kid and stuff like that. But I recently got back into collecting my stuff, actually, back in the early 2000s. Actually, I never had the chicken pox as a kid. And then I ended up getting it. I had all this time on my hands. I found my old Transformers. I found eBay. Wow, they're worth this much. Oh, you went down that rabbit hole. And then it's like, oh, well, I kind of like to get some of the ones I never had. I always wanted, and then I did that. And then I see these guys with these big collections, this whole wall covered. I'm like, oh, I'm never going to have something that big. Well, I do now. So I probably have over 1,000 of them displayed, and I don't know how many still packed away. But I also buy, sell, and trade with my friends and met other people through that community, too. Other conventions, too? Yeah, there's a Transformer BotCon convention. You've been? Yeah, I've been there. And they're actually having one in Chicago, thankfully not at the same time as Pinball Expo this year. And it's called a TFCon. So I'll probably be going to that. Sure. Yeah, so the last time it was coincided with the same weekend as Expo, and so I got to see a little bit on Sunday of the other one. What's the big wow factor at the TFCon? Well, actually at TFCon they show more third-party figures, so besides the licensed Hasbro, Tomy, Takara figures, there's a high presence of these third-party, non-official companies that make these Transformers, And they do a really good job with different variations and, you know, their take on some of these popular characters and stuff. I bet great artwork and things like that, too. Yeah, artwork, too. The BotCon is more official toys and everything, the Transformers. Is there cosplay, too? Yeah, people dress up. People dress up as their favorite character and stuff. You know, I have a couple friends who'll probably be like dealers at the event there. If somebody shows up as a go-bot, do they get immediately thrown out of there or what? No, I think they're welcomed. I don't know if they were dressed up as a rock lord or something like that. I don't think. There are limits. Jason, the kid, Mr. Werdrick, it's good to see you again, and I know we'll see you at a bunch of pinball events. Thanks for doing this. Okay, thanks for having me, Jeff. This has been your pinball profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're on Twitter, X, Instagram, at pinballprofile. You can email pinballprofile at gmail.com. If you'd like to show your support on Patreon, don't worry. The show is always free, but it's certainly welcome. Thank you very much to Albert A., to Derek K., Cliff A., Gambling Media Entertainment Law, and others. We appreciate that. With the Kid, Jason Werdrick, I'm Jeff Teols.