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Episode 7 - Field of "Pinball" Streams (If you build it, they will come)

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·34m 33s·analyzed·Aug 1, 2018
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Special When Lit hosts critique livestream culture, analyze Deep Root's strategy, and discuss pinball market fragmentation.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss pinball market dynamics, manufacturer competition, and early impressions of Spooky's Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle stream. They critique the technical failures of the premiere stream, debate whether pinball can be properly evaluated through video streams, and interview Deep Root Pinball's Robert Mueller about his confident manufacturing philosophy and launch titles. The hosts also reflect on secondary market pricing trends using a 1997 Twilight Zone receipt.

Key Claims

  • When multiple manufacturers release games simultaneously, it dilutes market share and creates a conundrum for competing companies.

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell discussing August release cycles and manufacturer competition

  • Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle stream had a one-hour delay, crashed after the first two plunges, and was deleted afterward with a reschedule planned for two weeks later.

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell's detailed account of the livestream technical failures

  • You cannot make a reliable purchasing decision about a pinball machine based solely on watching a stream.

    high confidence · Both hosts emphasizing that overhead camera angles lack depth perception and first-person perspective

  • Robert Mueller (Deep Root Pinball) claims his company has an advantage by researching faults of existing manufacturers and building from outside the traditional approach.

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell paraphrasing Mueller from Canada's Pinball Podcast interview

  • Licensing for pinball themes operates as a 'Wild West' with no set protocol; licensors conduct blind bidding between competing manufacturers.

    high confidence · Robert Mueller statement quoted by Ken Cromwell from Canada's Pinball Podcast interview

  • Deep Root's launch titles include Magic Girl remake, RAZA (Atomic Zombie Adventureland), and Alice in Wonderland (not ready for launch).

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell citing Mueller interview on manufacturing launch plans

  • A 1997 Twilight Zone machine sold for $2,601.43 out-the-door (after $600 discount), and is now worth at least triple that amount.

    high confidence · Bill Webb sharing receipt documentation from personal collection sale

  • Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle has tight shot mechanics that require disciplined play but may frustrate casual players.

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell's observations from watching stream, noting comparison to Houdini and Ghostbusters

Notable Quotes

  • “There's only so many people to buy pinball machines. And when all these games release at the same time, I would imagine it creates somewhat of a conundrum for some of these companies.”

    Ken Cromwell @ early segment — Articulates core market fragmentation concern as manufacturer competition intensifies

  • “You cannot judge a pinball machine by watching a pinball stream. You just can't.”

    Bill Webb @ mid-segment — Core thesis about limitations of livestream evaluation; repeated by both hosts

  • “You can't be that confident without a plan. I mean, there's just no way.”

    Bill Webb @ Deep Root discussion — Confidence assessment of Robert Mueller's manufacturing competence despite startup status

  • “It's the Wild West with these licensors. I mean, there's no protocol that they have to follow.”

    Ken Cromwell (paraphrasing Robert Mueller) @ licensing discussion — Reveals structural unpredictability in IP acquisition process for pinball manufacturers

  • “Augmented reality is something that would only add to the pinball experience without taking anything away.”

    Bill Webb @ later segment — Proposes AR as enhancement technology for pinball, distinguishing from VR; forward-thinking design concept

  • “I found it so interesting that here we are. Like, that game's worth double at least. And now you are... Well, no, it's triple now.”

    Bill Webb and Ken Cromwell @ closing segment — Reflects on secondary market appreciation; raises question about future pricing ceiling

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonRobert MuellerpersonCharlie EmerypersonJack DangerpersonSpooky PinballcompanyDeep Root Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle premiere stream failed on multiple fronts: one-hour delay, machine crashes after first two plunges, deleted stream with reschedule planned.

    high · Ken Cromwell detailed account: 'the stream didn't start for an hour...stream came up finally...machine shut down or crashed after...first two plunges...they deleted the stream'

  • $

    market_signal: Multiple manufacturers releasing simultaneously in August 2024 dilutes market share and creates buyer choice complexity; hosts note finite buyer base and question competitive outcomes.

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'when all these games release at the same time, I would imagine it creates somewhat of a conundrum...only so many people to buy pinball machines'

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball CEO Robert Mueller expresses high confidence in competitive differentiation based on external research, manufacturing capabilities, and quality claims.

    high · Ken Cromwell: Mueller 'was able to kind of look at everything from the outside...capitalize on mistakes that current companies are making...propel him forward'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: IP licensing process operates without standardized protocol; licensors conduct blind bidding with no transparency, creating uncertainty for manufacturers seeking popular themes.

    high · Ken Cromwell paraphrasing Mueller: 'It's the Wild West with these licensors...no protocol...take the highest bidder...blind bid'

  • ?

    announcement: Deep Root Pinball confirmed launch titles: Magic Girl remake, RAZA (Atomic Zombie Adventureland), and Alice in Wonderland (in development, not launch-ready).

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.104

0:00
The Special When Lit Pinball Podcast is sponsored by Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale, a juicy hot pale ale that takes your taste buds on a flavorful ride. Woo!
0:11
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Thanks for hitting that start button and taking the plunge. Here are your hosts, Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb. Hey, what's up, guys? Thanks for joining us on episode number seven of the special When Lit Pinball podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell. My co-host is Bill Webb. We are a couple guys from the suburbs of Chicago, and we like to talk pinball, share our thoughts with you guys. And I like to start the show, every single show, asking Bill what's going on with him. So as we start episode number seven. You know, there's a decent amount going on in pinball right now, just in the hobby in general. and I know that, you know, I spoke to you earlier. I got a getaway playfield from a Pinside user, gents56. Beautiful playfield, awesome guy to deal with, so I just wanted to send him a shout-out for being an awesome seller and just an awesome guy in general. What are you doing with the high-speed playfield? Is it high-speed or getaway? It's getaway. Okay. I'm going to build a new cabinet for, build a new cabinet. Actually, I'm essentially just going to build a brand-new game because I have a populated play field that I'm going to strip down and use for the parts for the brand-new play field and then build a custom cabinet with some custom mods and just a real, real wicked cabinet. What's a custom wicked cabinet? What does that mean? So the graphics on the getaway will be printed on chrome instead of white. Oh, cool, like a chrome edition getaway. Chrome edition getaway. The bottom of the cabinet will be in mirrored plexiglass. so when you open it up it'll look lowrider 1994 style yeah um the everything will be chromed out on it just an absolutely immaculate example of a getaway awesome so clear-coated clear-coated playfield just you know bar none so i'm happy to get that project started so i think i'm going to start getting that going in the next month or so is that something you'd consider bringing to expo maybe next year or in the next couple years next year probably not this october but the following just to show it off. I'm excited. I've been talking about Expo a lot lately, and it's because, I mean, literally, as we get into August, pinball is starting to get interesting because you're starting to see movement from the manufacturers. You've got a lot of games that are converging at one time with a release. And it's going to be real interesting to see which games take the majority of the market share because there's only so many people to buy pinball machines. And when all these games release at the same time, I would imagine it creates somewhat of a conundrum for some of these companies that would normally maybe have a best-selling pin, but when you've got three or four other manufacturers all entering the marketplace with similar awesome pinball machines, it kind of dilutes the water, so to speak. And similar themes. And there's only so much money to go around. But, you know, in here, even going back, it's kind of crazy to see some of the used market. I mean, you were telling me about a T2 earlier.
Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle
game
Magic Girlgame
Zombie Yetiperson
Jeremy Packardperson
gents56person
Bone Kearnsperson
Canada's Pinball Podcastorganization
Kanedaperson
RAZAgame
Alice in Wonderlandgame
Twilight Zonegame
Two Brothers Pinball Pale Aleproduct
Texas Pinball Festivalevent

high · Ken Cromwell: 'Robert said that a couple of the launch titles...going to be a remake of Magic Girl...Raza...Alice in Wonderland...It won't be ready for launch'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Deep Root positions itself as quality-focused ('Cadillac or Ferrari') and criticizes competitors for selling lesser-quality products by exploiting impulse purchase behavior.

    medium · Ken Cromwell: Mueller criticized 'other manufacturers stating that they were taking advantage of that situation by offering a lesser quality product'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle exhibits tight shot mechanics; early stream showed difficulty but improved after players (Kearns, Danger) acclimated; tight mechanics generate disciplined play but can frustrate.

    medium · Ken Cromwell: 'there was some difficulty in making the shots...when they did kind of get into playing the game...they really started nailing the shots'; Bill Webb: 'there is a fine line between tight shooting and just a ball buster'

  • ?

    content_signal: Spooky Pinball deleted livestream due to dissatisfaction; rescheduled restream for two weeks later; stream used as community engagement/preview tool despite limitations.

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'they deleted the stream because it just, I guess it didn't go out to their satisfaction...going to restream again in two weeks'

  • ?

    collector_signal: 1997 Twilight Zone machine sold for $2,601 out-the-door; now worth approximately 3x that amount (estimated $7,800+). Raises questions about future pricing ceiling.

    high · Bill Webb: '1997...sold for $2,601.43...that game's worth double at least...it's triple now...21 years later'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Bill Webb proposes augmented reality (AR) as enhancement for pinball experiences; distinguishes from virtual reality; suggests AR overlays could enhance gameplay without physical modifications.

    low · Bill Webb: 'Augmented reality is something that would only add to the pinball experience without taking anything away...put on a set of clear glasses where you would still see everything...digitally things would be added'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Deep Root Pinball planning staggered five-day launch campaign for Magic Girl with no fixed schedule; dates may be spread across weeks/months rather than consecutive days, ending at Texas Pinball Festival.

    medium · Ken Cromwell: 'He talked about where they weren't necessarily going to do five consecutive days of Deep Root ending at Texas Pinball Festival...day one release here and then a month down the road, day two'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Deep Root Pinball Magic Girl remake considering 3D effects and 'home, down to earth homegirl type of personification' for character art; potential LCD integration (backglass or playfield display) being explored.

    medium · Ken Cromwell: Mueller discussion 'they were going to add more of a three dimensional effect...was if that was going to be in the animations on the LCD or...actually tweaking that original artwork'

    • 3:15
    Yeah, I saw a T2. And, again, I think it was one of those crazy restorations with super mods at like a $7,000 price point. You know what? I don't see that selling right away, but I do see it selling because, you know, I mean there's people out there that theme and just having something that's done means more to them than the money because they don't have the time. So, you know, is that going to set the bar on T2s? Well, I mean it might influence it a little bit, but, you know, I mean if you want a premium game, you're going to pay a premium to get it. Yeah, there are two different sides of the market. I mean, and there's the buying and selling of new and used games. And then there's that high-end collector market. And this one is just like a high-end restoration collector type pin because it does offer things that you would most likely not find on another T2. Or at least you wouldn't find all these on one T2. Do I think it's a $7,000 pin? I don't think so. But it's not because it's not worth $7,000. It's not worth $7,000 to me. And that's where I think the difference is. somebody else might be willing to pay $7,000 for that Grail T2, and that's kind of that niche market for that one, or that niche buyer, if that makes any sense, for that one particular pin. Oh, no, it makes complete sense. And actually, I mean, here, you had a Brian Kelly restored Scare Stiff that was home use only. And, I mean, you sold that for, you know, I mean, essentially what you had into it, which was, you know, a lot of money. It was a $10,000 pin. Yeah. And, you know, I mean. Which, by the way, still scares me that I had that kind of money into a pinball machine. Oh, yeah, yeah. And you know what? I mean, that's just a very select buyer that wants that high end of a pin because most people are just looking to play it. That said, there are still those crazy people out there that, you know, the money doesn't matter. I've got to have it. Right. So good for them. That's a great problem that they have. I guess it is good problems they have. So last night we were able to get a glimpse of Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle And it was a stream by Dead Flip Jack Danger out of Spooky Pinball in Wisconsin It was kind of the first time that this pin has been streamed live There were some recorded videos that were launched or released earlier And you really didn't get a sense of the pinball machine on those launched videos They were kind of teaser videos, if you will Now, with these streams, you're able to kind of get more involved, and you have somebody that's usually walking you through what's going on. And so last night was the debut of that. Did you get a chance to see any of that? You know what? I started watching it early when they were having problems with the streaming, so it wasn't as clear for me, and I just got to a point where I turned it off just because it got too late.
    6:00
    You know, the impressions that I was getting at that time just with the Internet shutting down and all those things, I didn't want to be biased against that pin for reasons that didn't actually revolve around that pin. Makes sense. But I'm glad that you brought that up because, and hear me out on this, and I want to preface this by saying I've got a lot of respect for Charlie Emery at Spooky. I've got a lot of respect for Jack Danger, who's Deadflip, who streams these pinball machines. That being said, so you had, I believe it was a 6 o'clock scheduled start on this stream. so myself and i imagine a lot of people also kind of maybe set that time aside i personally blocked off an hour of time because i wanted to see it played for an hour long story short the stream didn't start for an hour and it was just because of technical difficulties and that kind of happens the stream came up finally um without dropping and then there were some issues with the machine that they were playing on which you know that kind of thing happens i guess it was a machine that was literally manufactured that day and had last minute code update that was installed so it hadn't really been tested uh no big deal the machine shut down or crashed after you know each of the first two plunges on the first two games uh but then i did notice this i did notice that when they did kind of get into playing the game that it didn't look like it flowed a lot and it wasn't because it didn't have the potential to flow but it looked like there was some difficulty in making the shots now you also have to consider that every game is set up probably slightly different in regards to you know the pitch of the play field and and this that and the other thing so about an hour and a half into this i was still waiting for that payoff that i had been anticipating throughout the whole night long um unfortunately for me i didn't get a chance to watch the entire stream because an hour into it still had not started.
    8:01
    And I guess what had happened later on was that these guys, Bone Kearns was there and he was playing. Jack Danger was there. He was playing. These guys kind of settled in. They really started nailing the shots. So you know the shots are able to be made. But I guess I was disappointed in the fact that I wish it would have went off without a hitch. But do I think it's a catastrophic thing that happened? No. It was more so just me frustrated with my own personal time that I wasn't able to really kind of sit down and dedicate more time to that particular pinball machine, and that being streamed for the first time And I wonder how many people tuned in at 6 And this is the thing you tune in at six o that stream wasn even up and running There was actually, Jack Danger was hosting somebody else's stream and it was a female artist and she was illustrating live. And I saw people coming in and out of the chat expecting to see Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle and they see this young lady who's just illustrating, doing illustrations and nobody knew what was going on if you were new to Twitch. If you weren't new to Twitch, you knew that there was something happening. So it was just kind of messed up, man. It was frustrating and I wish it went off better. It didn't. It's not the end of the world. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little disappointed on how that totally went off. No, and I totally get that. Believe me. And the hardest part is being able to let that go and not let it change your impression of a game. For me, it's not a big deal. And, you know, I heard from you and other people that that game is very tight. You know, and some people don't like that. I don't know if I dislike it just because I know that when you learn to actually shoot those shots, you become a more disciplined player and you actually get better.
    9:49
    You know, some games are looser. Some games aren't as tough to make the shots. I kind of like the ones that are a little tighter just because, you know, It teaches you to be a more disciplined player and become more advanced with those shots. Yeah, I don't mind a tight shooting pin necessarily, but there is a fine line between tight shooting and just a ball buster to play to. I think one of the most fun things in pinball is, to your point, when you do get the shots down and you're able to kind of really get into a rhythm and the game starts getting played at a level where it's quick and it's fun. And it's flowing. It's flowing, right. Now, if you're getting frustrated because you can only hit this shot two out of five times and you can't get in rhythm, that's why. I'm not saying that that is this pin. No, no. Well, in here, you know, it's just like Houdini. So we actually played Houdini. Tight shots, real tight shots. Do I think it's a fun pin? I do. You know, have we spent enough time to learn the shots? No, not yet. But I don't discredit it. Like Ghostbusters. So you had a Ghostbusters premium. Tough game, tough shots. What did you think of it? Well, I threw a center post kit on that, so that might not be the best example. I physically added to the machine to make it easier.
    11:04
    I do want to say this. I'm starting to realize that you cannot judge a pinball machine by watching a pinball stream. You just can't. You've got this overhead view, which is very two-dimensional. You don't see the depth of the machine. You don't see mechs moving very well. you really can't see the player's uh or like where his line of sight on the machine and for me when i'm watching these pinball streams it's more of like a general intro to kind of what the game is gonna play like but as far as like getting an experience there's just you just don't get that experience no i mean it's a great tutorial to learn but right right a tutorial is a good term because you're learning how to hit different shots to start different modes how to get into different wizard modes the other thing that is a little bit uh i guess for me i'm in the minority of this when i get a pinball machine i like to kind of discover things on my own because it's kind of like when when i was younger and i would get a video game it would have killed me to go on youtube and see the ending of everything or get a strategy guide and learn how to do everything without learning it on your own like i like i like surprises i like the element of surprise i'd like to hit a shot and be like oh it does that or oh i didn't know that happens in this mode well you You want to earn it. Right. But when you're watching these streams and you're watching these unbelievable pinball players, Bowen Kearns and Jack Danger, I mean, these are heavy hitters. And they're killing the machine. And it's like I know it's early code, but it's like what else is left that you can discover on your own if these guys are killing it? And, again, I'm in the minority, I think, with that. but I'd almost prefer to kind of watch somebody play a couple games and get a general gist of how it works versus watching somebody kind of walk me through the whole game. Yeah, and blow up the machine. Yeah, the animations on that game were incredible. I really, really liked the comic book style.
    12:56
    The shots, again, looked a little bit tight in the beginning, and they seemed to settle in later on, so that was encouraging. The other thing I noticed, and I don't mean to monopolize the time here. We can get into something else. No, you're fine. but like the music was really fun. Alice Cooper music is, is decent music. I'm not a big Alice Cooper fan, but I'm not a hater. I enjoyed the music in the pinball machine. I did notice there was, I'm not even considering like the lack of enthusiasm of the call outs of Alice Cooper. Cause I guess I understand that's kind of his personality in general. I don't need Alice Cooper going all, you know, crazy, but it's like in modes, it seemed like you were just listening to music. You, there weren't a lot of call outs telling you what you should be doing. So I kind of enjoy, hey, hit the left ramp or, hey, nice shot. It just seemed like I was listening to a CD being played during modes while the game was being played. But I'm sure there's going to be updates to that. So, again, very early, and I'm just giving my personal impressions of the machine. Yeah, and you know what? Honestly, I did watch probably about 10 to 15 good minutes of it. I like the music. I like how they integrated it. The play field itself looks pretty wicked. The art's unbelievable. Yeah.
    14:11
    And then with code, I mean, I think that they did some ridiculous number of call-outs that they could program into the machine. So if it's still early code, I still wouldn't be too concerned by that just because I know that they did do quite a fair amount of call-outs for that game at some point. Right, and again, that was just my initial thought was I wanted to kind of hear some of these call-outs, maybe a little bit of direction we were supposed to go. I didn't see it, but to your point exactly, it's still early. to kind of round this out and close it up for those that didn't get a chance to see the stream, there's no way to see it because they deleted the stream because it just, I guess it didn't go out to their satisfaction. So for those that had waited a long time to finally see this game being revealed, that weren't able to wait for the hour for it to start or weren't able to, you know, stick around during that particular time, you're kind of out of luck. Charlie did say on pin side, to a message that I left there that they're going to restream again in two weeks, which I guess is okay. Again, I'm sure everybody involved would have wished it would have went off better or a little bit more smoothly, but I think the machine is interesting and it's still up in the air for me to see if it's something that I'd want to own in my personal collection. I know it's not going to be decided on a stream or I'm not going to be able to make a decision on that. I find myself watching the players and their reactions more almost than I do watching the shots because it's hard to see the shots. And I like watching the animations on the LCD. But to be able to kind of watch the ball and not see that three-dimensional perspective and not kind of see that particular first-person angle, again, I love streaming. It's cool, but you cannot make a decision on a machine based on a stream. You just can't do it. No. I mean, I've watched a couple of streams like the Star Wars stream when it was first released. We may have watched that together. Yeah, I think we did. I think it was here we saw that. Yeah. um i mean played it not too long after so i mean that helped too um and the tna stream when uh the one night when uh they were streaming at uh scott's house um and it's real hard to you know i mean honestly when i saw the stream i was like wow this thing's brutal man who's gonna want to play this then you play when it's like okay now i can see the appeal so you know yeah streams are just i mean they're not the end all be all and last night's stream was it the best no could have gone off a little better but was it the worst or the deciding factor of whether somebody should buy it or not absolutely not well even we watched when we watched uh star wars being streamed we saw like keith elwynn blowing up the game and i think i think uh zach sharp might have been in there too i think you're right so i mean again you got these killer players just dominating machine that wasn't even complete as far as code goes so it's like i almost wish it'd be like average dudes in they're playing pinball like somebody like me walking up to a machine and not you know knocking out seven out of eight modes or anything like that but again personal preference and you know what don't watch the stream then i guess and it would be my answer to myself yeah um well it's probably good to watch you know 10 to 15 minutes of a stream to see how it shoots but yeah i mean other than that you don you know don ruin the surprise of uh seeing the game getting blown up because I mean it kind of like okay well why do this now You got to like turn off the games Like, oh, my gosh, they're getting close. They're getting close. Well, if you remember, anyways, let's just drop the whole thing. I'm hoping for the best for this pinball machine. By far, it looks like their best effort out of Spooky for a game that they've made in-house. And I'm interested to see where it goes. I've been on record as saying it wasn't something I was interested in at all when it was announced. And the way that Charlie and Spooky kind of teased the game got me interested. And that ultimate payoff last night just didn't happen. But you know what? I've got two more weeks where I can wait and see another stream and then hopefully play it at Expo in October. Yep. So let's go. Let's switch gears. And Deep Root Pinball, Robert Mueller was recently interviewed on Canada's Pinball Podcast. And I've got to say, I thought it was a pretty good interview. It wasn't as hardcore as I might have expected it to. I was expecting it to be more abrasive as well. I think to Kaneda's credit, he does treat all of his guests with respect, and I can appreciate that. He didn't give Robert softballs either necessarily. So I think they kind of went over a range of different topics, and I liked the interview personally. I thought it was good. It definitely shed some light on a lot of stuff that was kind of in the dark. I'm looking forward to Expo to hear him speak. And definitely TPF.
    18:45
    Yeah, well, so TPF is going to be the fifth day of Deep Root in their five days of Deep Root launch campaign. He talked about where they weren't necessarily going to do five consecutive days of Deep Root ending at Texas Pinball Festival. You might see a day one release here and then a month down the road, day two. two weeks down the way. I mean, so there's no rhyme or reason as to how this is going to play out.
    19:08
    I did kind of appreciate how brutally honest Robert Mueller was, or at least brutally confident, where he had talked about instead of these companies that have been doing it the same way over and over and over, he kind of has an advantage, whereas he was able to kind of look at everything from the outside and start his company and his manufacturing, you know, based on research that he had done and finding the faults of these other companies. So he kind of believes that he's put himself ahead of the game by being able to capitalize on mistakes that current companies are making, and that should propel him forward and where other companies may follow him, follow suit in what he's doing. And with how confident he spoke about all those issues or all those things, you know, I'm really curious to see how this all shakes out. I'm super curious, too. You can't be that confident without a plan.
    20:02
    I mean, there's just no way. And they sound detailed, motivated, and not looking to do anything but succeed. And honestly, they have all the pieces to the puzzle to succeed. So it's going to be real interesting. Well, they have the staff to potentially succeed. As far as the manufacturing capabilities and the distribution, that's yet to be seen. But you know what? I mean, here, if you build a good product, in theory, build it and they will come.
    20:31
    Well, he was talking about licensing. I mean, he's at a disadvantage, obviously, a new company coming into the marketplace looking to land these big licenses. He also said that it's the Wild West with these licensors. I mean, there's no protocol that they have to follow.
    20:47
    If I am pinball company A and I'm like, hey, I want this license to Stranger Things, Stranger Things can be like, all right, hold on a second. because I'm going to call Company B and Company C and let you know that you're interested, and I'm going to take the highest bidder. And it's a blind bid. You don't know what's going on, so you're kind of just out there trying to secure a license. So I found that to be interesting. The other thing I found to be interesting was that he was talking about pinball being an impulse purchase and being able to kind of put something out there and take advantage of people's incapabilities of keeping money in their pocket. Yeah. He did criticize other manufacturers stating that they were taking advantage of that situation by by offering. I maybe I'm paraphrasing, but like a lesser quality product because they know it's going to sell anyways. So he's still kind of talking about the fact that, you know, this is going to be the creme de la creme. This is going to be the Cadillac or was a Ferrari. Yeah. I remember something like that. Yeah. I don't I don't exactly remember. says a couple of days ago, but yeah. Right. So, I mean, again, it's going to be interesting. Anybody that's that confident and has the staff that he has, there's got to be something going on. Yeah. And I'm very eager to see what that is. Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I mean, they have the, in my eyes, a lot of the pieces of the puzzle to build a pretty wicked game. So it will be real interesting to see how this all shakes out. So he said that a couple of the launch titles that they will be starting off with is going to be a remake of Magic Girl. And I want to retouch on Magic Girl in a second.
    22:22
    Raza, which is retro, what is that, retro, like Atomic Zombie Adventureland, I think is the acronym for that. Alice in Wonderland was a pin that everybody's looking forward to. They are going to be working on that pin. It won't be ready for launch. um now when we talk about magic girl i think what a lot of people liked about magic girl was the artwork and the hopefulness that the game would play as intended unfortunately the game didn't play as intended because for whatever reason it just wasn't able to be completed uh that's for another conversation yeah uh zombie yeti jeremy packard was the original artist or or majority of the art came from him. And what I heard during that interview was that some of that artwork, it was kind of fuzzy the way that I that I listened to it. I think you could have interpreted it a few different ways, but I'm curious to hear your interpretation on it. So my initial interpretation, Robert said that they were going to add more of a three dimensional effect and give her more of like a home, a down to earth homegirl type of personification. Where I wasn't clear was if that was going to be in the animations on the LCD or whatever display that they're using, or if they were going to be actually tweaking that original artwork. And I've read some posts recently by Zombie Yeti where, depending on how you read those, I think he may or may not be concerned about altering his artwork, because ultimately that may be considered, whatever that final artwork package is, that may be considered by some to be his artwork package. So, I mean, it's kind of all over the place. How did you take that? You know, with how he was talking about it, it almost made it sound like, yeah, I heard the 3D part where they want to make it three-dimensional, but it almost sounds like they want to do something digitally with it, almost like a digital play field or something. I don't, you know, I'm surely. Oh, like virtual? Is that where you're going? Yeah, something. Okay. You know, I'm shooting from the hip here, don't know anything, just from what it sounded like to me. It's pure speculation on my part. There could be an LCD in that back glass. There could be an LCD on that play field. There could be an LCD on the back glass and in the play field. Or they could be making a 3D pinball machine. I've gone on record as saying that I think, and I think this is a cool idea whether they do it or not, augmented reality is something that would only add to the pinball experience without taking anything away. And for those that don't know the difference, Virtual reality would be like putting on glasses and changing your whole perspective of everything around you. Whereas augmented reality, take for instance, you would put on a set of clear glasses where you would still see everything as it is in your vision, but then digitally things would be added to your surroundings. So if you were looking at a grassy hill and then you put the glasses on, you're still seeing the grassy hill, but now maybe you're seeing some unicorns or volcanoes coming up out of the grass. Unicorns doing some lines of rainbow? Yeah, it's augmented reality. That, I think, would be pretty cool on any pinball machine to be able to actually have an add-on. Could you imagine playing Twilight Zone and being lost in the zone with your clear glasses on, and then you've got stuff flying to the left and to the right of you? Oh, yeah, that'd be awesome. Through like a wicked time tunnel or something like that. Let's back that up and throw that on Ghostbusters. You could put that on any pin. Slimer coming after you while you you know that be badass Bill any pinball machine you could add something like that to and it would not take away from the original machine because you not physically moving or removing anything You're just adding things in your peripheral vision or in front of your vision, and I think that would be super, super cool. So I'm hoping that there's something like that going on, whether it be Deep Root or mods in the future for other pinball machines or even companies that are looking to push the envelope. I would love to see augmented reality. Again, not virtual pinball where you're looking down and simulating pinball experience. You're adding to a pinball experience. And speaking of another pinball experience that I had personally, I just want to share a quick story here. I recently sold a Twilight Zone that I had, my second Twilight Zone. Awesome pinball machine, and this was in great shape. As I was getting it ready for sale, I noticed that there was a receipt inside from the previous owner. Really? And I just wanted to take a quick second because I think it's funny and it puts a lot of things in perspective. This receipt is from August 30th of 1997. So now we know that this machine was not purchased H-U-O. Twilight Zone came out in 1993. Correct. So you're looking at a machine that was four years old. And you could tell because there was – I'm not going to get into the condition of the cabinet. It was just a great – You can tell a routed game from a non-routed game. Yeah, and this was routed at some point, but so minimally routed or meticulously cared for that it wasn't abused. No, it was a super nice machine. But check this out. So this was bought locally from a local retailer or like game reseller that is no longer in business. So I don't want to get into that. But so Twilight Zone in August 30th of 1997, this one, which was a beautiful example, sold for $2,999.
    27:41
    And there was some tax on there that looks like $202.43. But there was a $600 discount that was given at the time of the sale because it was on sale. Really? So the out-the-door price was $2,601.43, and free delivery was given, and it was going to be delivered on a Tuesday, and there was a 90-day in-house warranty for this. And it's funny because I have, like, I've got the Discover receipt here. And I'm trying to see if there's anything else. But I just, I found it so interesting that here we are. Like, that game's worth double at least.
    28:25
    And now you are. Well, no, it's triple now. Right. And it's, what, 21 years later? Yeah. And, you know, I guess when you really put it in that perspective, two decades have gone by for it to double in price. Maybe it's not that big a deal. But where will prices go from here? I mean, at some point you have to think that these manufacturers may not be able to increase prices on every single release of a pinball machine. I mean, when is enough enough? I mean, already you're like around, what, almost $6,000 for Stern Pro. Yeah. It seems like the kind of premium or baseline model that's coming out from these companies. Yeah, I was going to say $7,000 to $7,500. hundred bucks you've got these collector editions that can go anywhere between you know up to twelve thirteen thousand dollars um where does it go where does it go from here well you know here's the thing yeah the prices on new machines are kind of slowly raising every year but the prices on the old machines in the last five years has just kind of flown through the roof in my opinion so it's funny to see this you know i mean at some point you know i'm curious to see what happens i I don't want to say that there's a ceiling or the bottom is going to drop out because you never know what's going to happen. You're right. You never do know. But you're right. I mean, the interesting thing is by the new in-box price going up, it kind of force appreciates the used market. And because that used market can be potentially thousands and thousands of dollars less, depending on the title, everybody wants to think that their machines are worth more. And in some cases they are. And machines are shifting all over the place. I just don't know what even is a good deal anymore.
    30:01
    I'm not going to say it's out of hand because it's fun that it's thriving. But if you sell a machine right now, unless something bottoms out, be prepared to pay thousands of dollars more to buy it back five, six years down the road. Oh, yeah. Here, we talked about the first getaway project that I did. It was a restore of the new cabinet. I'd like $4,200 into redoing that game. Right. four years ago and I thought there's no way I'm ever getting my money back out of this I just lost my butt and uh you know now it's getting to the point where they're you know 36 3800 dollars yeah you're not too far off so I'm not too far off you know granted I got you know like 7 000 plays on it in four years but our buddy Steve just sold a pin bot right for a high speed or a high speed high speed and and that went for a premium price yeah you know high speeds uh you know five years ago or you know a thousand dollars maybe 1500 for a really nice one right right and i think you had a decent one from what i know and you got two grand or more for it yeah everything's going up um em still seem to be like nicer ems not like the highly sought after ems but like a nice decent quality em in the 500 range i think is is kind of fair five to seven depending on what it is Yeah. And you can get those for two or three or $150. I mean, it's just being in the right place at the right time with the right person. Oh, yeah. I mean, here, I mean, somebody needs to move, then you get a pinball machine out. Well, you know, you got three guys there to move it in cash. Well, you know, you're probably going to do all right on that deal. Right, right. Agreed. The, you know, and one other, like a little personal shout out here when I did sell Twilight Zone, and I've done some business with this gentleman on a few occasions in the past. This is not a paid plug, per se, but Nick Noble works. When we do business with somebody and they're good people, we don't have a problem sharing their information just because there's so many people out in this hobby that will try and take advantage that when we find someone that doesn't, it's always refreshing to deal with good people. So that's why we will throw names out there so other people know that they're a good seller or a good buyer or just a reputable person. So I'm sorry to interrupt you. No, you didn't interrupt at all. I'm glad that you kind of said that. I can speak as a seller for Nick Parks and Brooke Parks at the pinball company, and they're out of Missouri. If you have something that is highly collectible and you've got a respectable price, you may want to reach out to them and just let them know what you have because they do buy. Obviously, they resell these games. But I've had great success and great luck coming up with what I think is a fair price for myself And, you know, Nick and Brooke, they haven't had any issues with my asking prices, and everything's kind of gone perfectly. And they are able to set up with STI shipping. It's just, I don't know, I just thought I'd mention it because I've had good luck with them, and I appreciate that. So thank you, Pinball Company. Thank you, Nick and Brooke Parks. Thanks. Yep. All right. So I think on that note, we'll call it Episode 7. Yeah, we'll wrap up Episode 7. So it's great that we're able to get to Episode 7. and our listenership has expanded almost exponentially every single episode, so we appreciate it. I would ask you guys this. If you know somebody that is interested in pinball and they don't quite know what a podcast is, because this is not an uncommon thing. I've had to explain what a podcast is to about half the people that I know. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but let them know, hey, there is a pinball podcast, and let them know there's a lot of pinball podcasts, and I hope that you consider recommending listening to the special when lit pinball podcast because it it helps us out and we appreciate the effort yes please do yes yes please do sorry we're drinking some two brothers uh right we did have a little bit of a tailgating today we did the podcast so i do want to thank two brothers artisan brewing for their sponsorship i want to thank everybody that's listened to the show we always like to thank you um if you get an opportunity if you'd like to connect with us you can reach us on uh you know Facebook at Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. And you can email us directly at SpecialWhenLitPinballPodcast at gmail.com. So for Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. This is the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. Thanks for listening. You guys have a good morning, afternoon, or evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day to play some pinball. We'll catch you next week, guys. Thanks.