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The Name’s John…. Not John Wick, the other one. BonusX!!

Bash Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·25m 11s·analyzed·Aug 1, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Hosts praise Elton John as best JJP game but criticize modern pinball's lack of innovative toys versus classic Williams era.

Summary

Bash Pinball hosts discuss Elton John pinball by Jersey Jack, praising its shooting mechanics, layout, and feel as their favorite JJP game. They compare it favorably to other games, explore audio quality concerns with pinball headphone listening, and express broader disappointment with modern games lacking innovative physical toys compared to classic Williams machines like Godzilla, Doctor Who, and Hook.

Key Claims

  • Elton John is the speaker's favorite Jersey Jack game overall

    high confidence · Don states '100%' when asked if Elton John is his favorite JJP game, later clarifies it's 'neck and neck' with Dialed In

  • Elton John has superior flipper feel and playability compared to other JJP games like Godfather

    high confidence · Both speakers agree 'It just flips better' and 'Elton John feels natural' vs Godfather's 'odd feel'

  • Elton John's layout resembles classic pinball designs (Attack from Mars style) with upper right flipper, three center drop targets, side ramps, and scoops

    high confidence · Don describes the layout in detail: 'It's got the upper right flipper. It's got the three drop targets in the middle... Attack from Mars kind of thing'

  • Steve Ritchie's design on Elton John was influenced by his Stern experience and likely included tweaks to flipper mechanics

    medium confidence · Don speculates 'having Steve Ritchie design the game and bring his years of pinball experience, he probably had a few tweaks under the hood'

  • Modern pinball games lack the innovative toy mechanisms that defined classic Williams games from the 1980s-90s

    high confidence · Extended discussion: 'What game in the last 10 years has had some mechanism or toy that's something wholly innovative and new?' Speakers cite Godzilla as closest exception

  • Godzilla's innovative features (building collapse, bridge movement, Mechagodzilla, spinning ramp, magnets) drive its popularity and appeal to new players

    high confidence · Don: 'Godzilla, man, has been basically the number one game that people have said to me... I saw the Godzilla and it got me into pinball'

  • Jersey Jack games are priced close to twice the cost of a Stern Pro model

    medium confidence · Speakers discuss pricing: 'these Jersey Jack games are expensive. Close to twice the cost of a pro Stern or something'

  • Audio quality through pinball machine headphone jacks is compressed and uses lower bitrate/sample rate files

Notable Quotes

  • “Elton John feels natural. Elton John feels like kind of like a greatest hits sort of layout.”

    Don @ ~12:00 — Core assessment of Elton John's design quality and why it resonates—familiar playfield structure executed excellently

  • “It's got like the light show kind of thing. Yeah. And the little rails going down the sides. I was mesmerized.”

    Matt @ ~15:00 — Positive sensory reaction to game's visual and mechanical presentation

  • “What game in the last 10 years has had some mechanism or toy that's something wholly innovative and new and different and interesting?”

    Matt @ ~35:00 — Central criticism driving broader industry analysis—modern games lack standout mechanical innovation

  • “Godzilla, man, has been basically the number one game that people have said to me... I saw the Godzilla and it got me into pinball.”

    Don @ ~37:00 — Demonstrates Godzilla's exceptional market impact and appeal to new players due to innovative toys

  • “There's a twister that came by. I didn't know what I was doing... It was like too much.”

    Matt @ ~24:00 — Critique of oversized LCD displays and information overload in Jersey Jack games (Wizard of Oz reference)

  • “Jersey Jack games are expensive... Close to twice the cost of a pro Stern or something.”

    Don @ ~42:00 — Pricing criticism: JJP premium positioned as 'New Williams' but lacks toy innovation to justify cost

  • “If Whitewater was just like, didn't have those elements, people wouldn't care about it.”

    Matt @ ~55:00 — Articulates thesis: whimsical, innovative toys are what make classic games memorable and drive engagement

  • “You got to risk it to get the biscuit.”

    Don @ ~62:00 — Meta-commentary on manufacturer risk-taking; suggests manufacturers should take chances every five games to innovate

Entities

Elton JohngameJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanySteve RitchiepersonGodzillagameDonperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Underlying concern that modern manufacturers lack risk appetite for expensive toy R&D due to niche market size and uncertain ROI. Hosts suggest solution: every 5th game should prioritize bold innovation even with higher risk.

    medium · Matt: 'It's got to be tough to make that call' on innovative toys... 'Maybe like, you know, every five games, they just go nuts. Do it... one of those Is going to hit And then It's going to sell A zillion of them'

  • ?

    community_signal: Bash Pinball hosts actively recruiting homebrew designer Glenn Wechter for podcast appearance to discuss Saw game development and sound design; planning to play game at Expo.

    high · Matt: 'You know who we should talk to? Glenn, the Saw homebrew... We want to get him on the show maybe, hopefully'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Modern Jersey Jack games prioritize LCD information density and visual spectacle over physical playfield toy innovation. Wizard of Oz criticized for overwhelming simultaneous modes and character collection on massive display.

    high · Matt: 'Wizard of Oz... there was some stuff i was spelling there It was all happening at once. There was a twister that came by. I didn't know what I was doing... It was like too much'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Trade-off between playfield space/toy innovation versus number of shots. Modern games pursue high shot count (14+ shots) while sacrificing space for distinctive mechanical features. Classic games accepted playfield real estate dedicated to memorable single features.

    high · Matt: 'Rudy's head, for example. It's like the whole game is kind of built around that giant head being there... So what we end up with now is like the efficiency mode... we want to try to fit 14 other shots'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.076

0:00
It's time for Bonus X. Do you like Bonus X? Listen to that Bonus X. Just take a bunch of Bonus X. Brought to you by Bonus X. You could want a Bonus X. It's time for Bonus X. It's happening in 3, 2, 1. Hi everyone, it's me Diane. Matt and Don said I should do the intro since I sound just like the lady that does the call outs on Elton John. I don't really hear it myself. Any who's all. Hey, Diane, do you think you could put some more motion into it? It sounds like you're reading cereal box ingredients. How's this? Pinball is so cool. I detect your sarcasm, but yeah, that's better. You'll get there. Anyway, Don and I finally played enough games of Elton John that we felt like we could talk about it a little. We also, shoot, we talked about some other stuff. Sorry, Diane was supposed to do this part. I had some other stuff written. It's fine. They get the point. Let's wrap it up. Okay. Everyone, please enjoy episode 17.
1:09
Yeah, I got stuff to say about Elton John. I thought it was fun. I think it's like we were saying earlier. I think you said it's your favorite Jersey Jack game, right? 100%. Yeah. Well, right now. And we've played all of them, really. Yeah, I believe I've played most of them to some degree. Maybe not enough, but I can say for sure that this right now, as far as from what I can remember, unless there's a random one that I forgot. Yeah. Oh, well, Dialed In. See, there you go. That's the one. That's the one I was forgetting about. But I would say they're neck and neck because I look at them as two different things. I would play Dialed In in a different way than I would play Elton John. Yeah, yeah. I haven't played Dialed In. I don't think I've played a good Dialed In. I don't think I've played one that was Dialed In. I like that game in theory, but every time I play it, I'm like, this feels wrong. It feels off. It's just set up bad. But anyway, yeah, Elton John, I kind of agree with you. It's the best shooting Jersey Jack game, maybe the best just play field, and it feels more like a stern. Obviously, having Steve Ritchie design the game and bring his years of pinball experience, he probably had a few tweaks under the hood, I would imagine, with that game as well. Because it just flips better. Yeah. It just feels better. Now, I would say Godfather felt pretty good. I don't think I've played a Godfather that was Godfathered in. Oh, really? Yeah. I played Godfather when it was working pretty well, but it still has a little bit of an odd feel to me compared to Elton John. Yeah, Elton John feels natural. Elton John feels like kind of like a greatest hits sort of layout. I mean, it's got the upper right flipper. It's got the three drop targets in the middle. How many games has that? Obviously, like Attack from Mars kind of thing. And then it's got the side ramp that you hit from the upper flipper. And then it's got two more ramps and the full loop orbit kind of shot. And then the scoops on the sides. I mean, it's just like it's been done a bunch of times. And it's just a really good example of it. It plays really well. Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's part of the reason why it's my favorite game, because it feels and flows and acts like what I know as pinball, but it's got all the cool visual and graphic and toys and mechanics, like the vibe that I like, right, that I feel is missing from a lot of other games that just feel kind of sterile. Yeah, it's got like the light show kind of thing. Yeah. And the little rails going down the sides. I was mesmerized. I was like focused in, man. It was cool. Yeah, I mean, with the headphones on, that helps a lot. And then if we, you can imagine if you had that game like in your personal collection and in the dark and you can just play it with the full effect. It'd be pretty awesome. I would turn it up, man, for sure. Now, you know, I don't care about Elton John music that much either. In my mind, he's in a similar category as like Billy Joel. Yeah, yeah, same. It's like, oh, I like a few of those songs. Same. I feel a little too young for that. But I enjoy some Tiny Dancer. Yeah.

medium confidence · Don speculates: 'My guess is probably cumulative. It's probably like standard or slightly subpar files. Like bitrate is probably low and like sample rate'

Matt
person
Dianeperson
Glenn Wechterperson
Doctor Whogame
Hookgame
Whitewatergame
Godfathergame
Dialed Ingame
Creature from the Black Lagoongame
Attack from Marsgame
Wizard of Ozgame
Addams Familygame
Sawgame
?

design_philosophy: Elton John represents return to classic 'greatest hits' pinball layout design—familiar shot patterns executed excellently rather than experimental new layouts. Hosts frame this as strength (natural feel, good fundamentals) but contrast with innovation concerns elsewhere.

high · Don: 'Elton John feels like kind of like a greatest hits sort of layout... It's just a really good example of it.' Matt agrees this contributes to its appeal: 'it feels and flows and acts like what I know as pinball'

  • $

    market_signal: Godzilla generating word-of-mouth market impact by converting non-players into pinball enthusiasts through innovative physical toys. Hosts cite multiple reports of players purchasing/becoming interested specifically due to Godzilla's innovative features.

    high · Don: 'Godzilla, man, has been basically the number one game that people have said to me... I saw the Godzilla and it got me into pinball' and 'I played it with my girlfriend and it got her into pinball'

  • ?

    community_signal: Elton John's female callout voice (Diane character—Elton's personal liaison) divides host opinions: one finds it soothing/ASMR-like; other finds it unenthusiastic and weak. Voice performance quality debate reflects broader game production priorities.

    medium · Don: 'double super jackpot man it was it was like asmr to my ears' vs Matt: 'I found it very unenthusiastic... Completely disagree'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack positioning itself as 'New Williams' through premium pricing (2x Stern Pro cost) and increased feature complexity, but failing to deliver classic Williams' core differentiator: innovative, whimsical mechanical toys.

    high · Matt: 'these Jersey Jack games are expensive... Close to twice the cost of a pro Stern or something. And they do all tend to have a lot more stuff in them... And they kind of bill themselves as the New Williams, right... So the thing that's missing is the innovation. The toy innovation.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Audio compression and low bitrate/sample rate on pinball machines creates poor listening experience with high-fidelity headphones. Technical quality issues suggest either cost-cutting or CPU/storage constraints rather than intentional design.

    high · Don on DT-770 headphones: 'This doesn't sound very good. It was disappointing.' Matt speculates: 'It's probably like standard or slightly subpar files. Like bitrate is probably low and like sample rate'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Growing community sentiment that modern pinball has abandoned mechanical innovation for efficiency. Hosts express nostalgia for Williams-era approach of designing games around singular standout mechanical features (Rudy's head, Hook ramp, Whitewater swirls).

    high · Matt: 'Those games will always have a spot in my heart as true pinball because they were innovative... I miss that kind of whimsy' and broader discussion lamenting absence of game-defining toys in last decade

    • 4:22
    It's a good melody. I'd probably just keep it on Tiny Dancer the whole time. Honky-Kat. Yeah. My issue with the musical aspect of the game is like, you know, music, take it or leave it. It's fine. But the call-outs did nothing for me. Really? The voice? Like that female? Who is she? I loved it. You liked the voice? Dude, I was going to actually say the complete opposite. I was going to say how much I enjoyed it. It was soothing. Is it the tiny dancer? Is that who it's supposed to be? It's Elton John's Diane. It sounds like Diane a little bit if she was slightly British. It's Elton John's Diane. It's probably his personal assistant. She's the one that's basically the liaison between us and him in the game. I found it very unenthusiastic, like double super jackpot. I loved it, man. I loved it. I thought that was a weak point for me. Man, I actually loved the experience that it provided. It was different. It didn't feel like somebody yelling at me. No, I mean, I get it. I'd have no better alternative. Like, I can't. Well, Elton John himself. Well, in the very beginning, he does say, enjoy my game, you know, something like that. But yeah, I think maybe if the crocodile voice, imagine a crocodile guy doing the call out. No, man, no. But like, you know, Tiny Dancer doing the call out wasn't exciting. Literally like, double super jackpot. Completely disagree. uh that hey hey hey by the way double super jackpot man it was it was like asmr to my ears it actually soothed me let me focus better and i feel like i could hear it cutting through weird right like it's almost like a totally different thing for me than it was for you i will also say that just in terms of headphone listening of pinball machines still not impressed with the fidelity of it. The quality of it Yeah now I heard Avengers Godzilla on the stern side with headphones And there just a very compressed quality to the sound And Elton John some of the music even sounded kind of EQ in an unpleasant way I was like, there's no way that's how the original recording sounded. Yeah, you know what's funny is I didn't even notice that. I was so focused on everything else, and I knew that those headphones were pretty crappy. Well, as far as the quality of it, I'm thinking of last time. Oh, when you used the good headphones. Yeah, when I was using the DT-770s. Because with those, I was just like, oh man, this doesn't sound very good. It was disappointing. I don't know where the issue is. It could be that it's the headphone jack itself, like the converter that's in that jack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it could be any number of places in there could be causing that. but it just doesn't sound that good. My guess is probably cumulative. It's probably like standard or slightly subpar files. Like bitrate is probably low and like sample rate. And maybe it's like you have to have kind of small files for the CPU to like recall all of these, you know, suddenly when you're hitting pop bumpers and it's trying to spit out a bunch of sounds really fast. I'm guessing there's a very like functional, practical reason. But I just wish it sounded better. you know what's funny is is to me it seems like this might be the only time i would recommend getting cheap headphones because it doesn't matter i hope it's not just cost cutting it's like well we only have one gigabyte for all of the audio and we have to fit it all into this little tiny amount because we don't want to pay for more ram or more storage or whatever right and that would just be lame i hope so too but yeah i hope it gets better just came to me you know it's kind of like similar right to getting like a like a super high def tv yeah and you know watching an old show or something yeah yeah you know it's kind of pointless right like it's it's you know then you watch the newer stuff it's all hd and like 4k 8k right high res yeah it almost doesn't matter in a way to watch an older show it almost looks better with an old tv the epitome of that is like the pirates movies pirates of the caribbean yeah because those movies came out when when computer graphics was still pretty terrible yep but the tvs were still like 480 totally everything was on dvd and you watch it there and it kind of blurs everything enough that you don't notice how bad the cg is and if you try to watch that on like a 4k it it looks horrible that is a visual representation of exactly what we're talking about by the way yeah it's the same thing with the audio basically yeah it's it's if you have low quality audio with high quality headphones yeah it exposes it makes it worse. You know who we should talk to? Glenn, the Saw homebrew. Yeah, actually, I wonder if Glenn would know the answer to this. Because he specifically works on the sound. And I guess, I don't know if I actually introduced him. Cool guy. He seems to vibe with us. We want to get him on the show maybe, hopefully. Yeah, talk about some homebrew stuff or whatever. Yeah, and I want to hear more about just the Saw game in general. I mean, I saw it.
    9:24
    I think he said it's going to be at Expo, so if we make it to Expo, then maybe we'll actually get to play it. That'd be awesome. It looks cool. It really looks cool. Shout out to you, Glenn. Thanks for contacting us, man. Do you want to guess how to say his last name? Do you want to count to three and then we both say it at the same time? Yeah. I'll count to three. Okay. One, two, three. Wechter. Okay. We said the same thing. All right. There's some weird vowels happening. Yeah. Wechter. So we're, yeah. Wechter. Vector. Yeah. Watcher.
    9:57
    Could be any of them. Glenn, please help us. Go on Pinside, search for the Saw Homebrew, and then click the name. The credits.
    10:11
    Yeah, so I just want to talk about how it feels and the play field a little bit. Because neither of us have played it enough to really know the rules and how to blow it up or anything. Because that's not how we approach new games. We both just kind of like to get a feel for it and kind of learn where everything is and what to look for before you get overwhelmed with all of the rules. Yeah, I like to see if it makes sense without thinking too hard about it. A lot of games now kind of will get you there just if you're paying attention to the game itself, which is cool. jersey jack games in general with the gigantic display overwhelming um it's almost too much information yeah i wonder if stern is gonna go with like a much bigger lcd on their next system i kind of hope they don't hope they don't the first time i played uh wizard of oz yeah i was playing pinball i was doing like an rpg or something with a map on the screen there was a bunch of little characters that i was collecting yeah there was some stuff i was spelling there It was all happening at once. There was a twister that came by. I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah. It was like too much. Anyways, sorry. You mentioned it's kind of like casino graphics. Casino graphics. And I'm with you. Like it has that sort of vibe like those casino touchscreen games and stuff. It has that sort of vibe, which is just like, eh. Anyways, that's my sidebar slash gripe about it. But that's what you're describing, right? Yeah. Okay. But yeah, apart from that, the layout, you know, the people who have complained, I think, that it's like a repurposed Steve Ritchie layout. And I can see that. I think it's like Spider-Man and maybe Star Trek, Stern games, the other Steve Ritchie games. And I get annoyed by those things too. This one doesn't bother me, probably just because I haven't played the other ones enough for it to feel overly familiar. But it's a great layout. Yeah, I love it. The shots are kind of all makeable, not extremely hard, not extremely easy. the middle drop targets are fun to shoot at it's a little dangerous but it doesn't feel like too dangerous the ramps feel meaty like they're satisfying like when you hit it you can kind of feel the ball like rounding the bend in a way that feels really satisfying i mean all the shots are pretty satisfying there a lot of stuff to shoot at i don like that the left ramp just kind of dumps the ball i love that down on the playfield i love it dude So the side ramp also just kind of dumps the ball back down on the playfield I don like that I love it. Part of me is like, oh, it's going to damage the playfield. It's smacking into the playfield. Yeah, it's like putting excessive wear. That's why I love it, man, because it's just so wacky. You know what's funny is that I was hitting that shot. That was the most consistent shot that I was getting yesterday. That's the easiest ramp, definitely. Well, not the ramp coming off of that drop, hitting it into the crocodile lock. Oh, yeah. Dude, I was getting that no problem, which is crazy because the ball just like flops onto the playfield and just hitting it right away just from the left flipper. Yeah. I could almost get it every time, which is crazy because I don't know. For me, I did like it. I like that. It was dangerous. It's less clutter on the playfield because that wire form doesn't have to come as far down. I think that's a benefit of it. It's like a clearer play field. Practically speaking, it probably doesn't matter at all. I just don't like it. I don't like that. But that's my only real gripe about the play field is just the two spots where it kind of drops the ball. But practically, functionally, I don't know that it makes any difference. It's funny. I feel like this is one of the few games that I can recall where we very much disagree on some fundamental features on it, which is interesting. I like games with the chaos element for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the middle drop targets kind of give you that. Yeah. The other thing about this game that's kind of underwhelming to me is that rocket shot. The headphones definitely helped the rocket shot. Like the experience of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the headphones, I thought it was okay. You know, it felt okay. Like it actually gave me maybe not as much as I wanted, but it still was cool, you know? Yeah. I guess I wanted there to be like a, like it feels like if this had been a Williams game, okay, in the 90s, there would have been an actual rocket. Like something that physically moves or something that happens. There is a rocket. Where? In the Rocket Man shot. Like a little picture of one? A physical rocket toy with a glowing plume of smoke and fire. It doesn't do anything. It flickers. Oh, you're talking about like the little static toy on top of the ramp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's got light action, you know, light. This is kind of something we were talking about the other day. these Jersey Jack games are expensive. Yeah. Close to twice the cost of a pro Stern or something. Yeah. And they do all tend to have a lot more stuff in them than even the Stern LEs. Yeah. And they kind of bill themselves as the New Williams, right? Yeah. So the thing that's missing is the innovation. The toy innovation. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the difference is an action figure that just sits there versus one that actually handles the ball or something. Yeah, like almost every major Williams release in the 80s, 90s, maybe earlier, they added some element that was just wildly different from anything. Right, that's my favorite. And it's probably magnets. But that was my initial draw, right? That's why I love those games. Those games will always have a spot in my heart as true pinball because they were innovative and they did have interesting things that made you kind of take a second look and stop what you were doing. And you wanted to get that thing really bad to see what it did. Yeah. I miss that. What game in the last 10 years has had some mechanism or toy that's something wholly innovative and new and different and interesting? And not to sidestep, but my personal opinion is that Godzilla is probably the closest thing to that. And I'll talk to people, right? Yeah. Godzilla, man, has been basically the number one game that people have said to me, strangers. Yeah. Yeah, you know what? I saw the Godzilla and it got me into pinball. Yeah. Or I played it with my girlfriend and it got her into pinball. Yeah. And I think that's why. Because you got a building that crashes the bridge that, you know, the building falls, collapses. You got the bridge that moves and vibrates. You have the Mechagodzilla. You got the spinning ramp. You know. Yeah. The magnets. You got it all, man. It feels. Yeah. the stuff in that game feels different from anything else. And that's the magic that you're saying is missing from most modern games, and you wanted something like that here at Elton John. Yeah, I mean, the piano... The piano man isn't enough for you? It's cool, but... And it has, like, little LEDs on the side with the display. So that was cool. I actually was very impressed when I saw the mini-LED on the side of the piano. That was really cool. I mean, innovative... Yeah, not like cool. I mean, it's not anything you've never seen before, but it's cool. All the lights and everything in that game are very well done. Let me ask you a personal question here. If you could right now, I'm going to put you on the spot. Yeah. Make an innovative toy for Elton John. What would it be? I'm going to make one up to you right now. Let's see. Let me think about it.
    17:33
    A rocket that moves. A rocket that physically moves. Yeah, the ball. You shoot the ball into it. Oh, into the rocket. and then the rocket transports the ball yeah the rocket actually carries the ball to a different part of the play field honestly that doesn't seem like it would have been that hard to do right i know right just something i don't know it just seems like the innovation mindset that williams had where they were always trying to outdo each other and themselves is just doesn't exist anymore where did it go i don't i think it was just it was a different mentality back then yeah there was also like a sense of like trying to do something that no one had ever done before and i don't feel like that's there yeah on most games nowadays i don't know why it's got to be tough to manage and balance like sourcing parts materials you know labor etc etc etc versus the questionable popularity of this you know kind of niche hobby i don't know how you do that but i think what you're saying is right because i think that's a step in the wrong direction because you're basically relying on the people you already have yeah instead of potentially capturing more people which i think having innovative things like that would capture you know you know i would think but i mean certainly you you see see that with godzilla yeah exactly um and you know you look at like older games and you know Adam family had the thing hand that comes out and grabs the ball and anybody that sees that for the first time is just like mind blown. Yeah. And then the flipper is also doing the thing in time with the music. And then the magnets. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That just like warps, you know, like it changes the trajectory. That was so cool the first time I saw that. Yeah. And then so frustrating but also so cool, you know. It's like we want more games that sell 20,000 units. That's right. But there's like – I don't know. People don't – I don't know why we're not putting together that like you need these unique elements to really capture people's imagination. Yeah, yeah. But with a lot of those innovative toys, they were hit or miss. Yeah, yeah. They're not always great. Right. And they probably put a lot of time and effort into developing these things, and then you stick it in the game, and it's like, well, it's actually not that. interesting or fun yeah um so i i get that there's like a higher r&d cost there's more kind of risk reward it adds an extra layer of complexity to when servicing yep yep it makes you're probably having to create some you know special parts and mechanisms that don't exist and i know they had to do that with godzilla there's like videos about it yeah how much have you played doctor who only a little bit but i know that that you know rising building in the back not not that different from godzilla i guess but that thing captivated me man hardcore yeah it the first time i played that game mind-blowing yeah i think it's a nightmare to work on 100 i imagine i can only imagine i mean i think there's like the least amount of clearance you can possibly get with that building in the glass yeah i'm pretty sure you can like sever a finger off yeah yeah exactly i think we saw um i gotta verify you know i might be making this up but i'm pretty sure what you're saying it yeah is like a legitimate concern right of pinning your finger against the glass or something yeah i think that That one was one of the more cool but dangerous toys to try to work on. Worth it, man. Hashtag worth it, you know? Yeah. It does seem like modern games mostly are just repurposing, repurposing, repurposing, repurposing. Yeah. And that's a little bit uninspiring. Well, you know, we got, how old are you again? 40. I think you were like 75 last time, so you probably got another 25 years, maybe? I got at least 25. So that's enough time to see innovation, I think, you know? I'm an elder millennial.
    21:18
    I think we're doing it now. I think us talking about it, putting it out there and other people potentially tapping into what we want as consumers. Yeah. I think there's still potential. I think maybe if pinball itself becomes more popular as a whole, I think it would open a little bit more of those doors. I'm optimistic, man. Maybe I'm overly optimistic sometimes, but what else is life, man? You can choose, right? And I choose to believe that it will improve and it will be fun and we will keep innovating. I mean, I think the other issue mainly with the really cool innovative toys oftentimes is that they took up too much of the play field. Like Rudy's head, for example. It's like the whole game is kind of built around that giant head being there.
    22:04
    And a lot of the other, like the ramp on Hook. Yep, yep. It's a really cool loopy ramp, but that ramp having all those loops kind of prevents you from putting something else there, another shot there. So what we end up with now is like the efficiency mode of like, well, let's have Jaws come out of the play field, but he's only going to be two inches wide because we want to try to fit 14 other shots. And that's cool too, but I miss the kind of whimsy and stuff of those other ones. dude and i would take that singular hook ramp yeah over any other three shots you could have put in there yeah because that to me that ramp alone makes that game yeah and that's that's what got me to even look at that game was what the heck is this how do what happens when i go up there you know yeah it has that whimsical i want to see what it does i want to hit this thing as many times as possible like yeah yeah creature from the black lagoon has similar just kind of excessive ramps everywhere. Whitewater. Yeah, Whitewater has these just kind of flowing, swirly, takes up a ton of space. It's kind of simple, kind of whatever, but it's freaking awesome, man. That's why people love that game and remember it. That's what's missing. You're right, yeah. Yeah. If Whitewater was just like, didn't have those elements, people wouldn't care about it. Yeah, I think that should be a goal, man. Pinball companies should strive to have one gimmicky, quirky mechanism that sets it apart from any other game that can captivate a stranger, a pin baby that has never played pinball to say, what is that thing? How can I get there? Oh my gosh, this is cool.
    23:48
    It's the risk-reward thing. It's like, well, if we put all this effort into doing this weird, cool thing and nobody likes it, then... Yeah, it's got to be tough, man. It's got to be tough to make that call. Maybe like, you know, every five games, they just go nuts. Do it Yeah every five games Go nuts Just go crazy Yeah and then You know one of those Is going to hit And then It's going to sell A zillion of them And then they'll just Do it on all of them You got to risk it To get the biscuit You got to risk it To get the biscuit Oh man As the kids say You got to risk it all For pinball Mmhmm Coming up On the Bash Pinball Podcast Does John Wick live up to our own hype? Should you take headphones to the arcade like a little dork? Stay tuned and all the mysteries will be revealed. Hold on. I thought I was going to do the outro too.
    25:01
    Bye.