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Ep 101: Elwin, Keith Elwin

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·59m 12s·analyzed·Feb 6, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.038

TL;DR

Keith Elwin on competitive play, code design evolution, and Bond 60's retro single-level architecture

Summary

Keith Elwin discusses his competitive pinball career, design philosophy, and upcoming Bond 60 cornerstone game. He reflects on losing to Escher at INDISC, explains his design evolution across Godzilla, Jurassic Park, and Avengers, and details Bond 60's retro single-level playfield approach with innovative features like trippable drop targets and four spinners.

Key Claims

  • Bond 60 is limited to 500 units

    high confidence · Keith confirms production limit directly: 'we all know that it's limited to 500'

  • Keith was approached about Bond 60 design approximately one year ago when George Gomez took over the cornerstone full-time

    high confidence · Keith states: 'It was probably about a year ago. So whenever George kind of, like, full-time took over the Bond cornerstone'

  • Godzilla will receive a side mode update featuring Terror of Mechagodzilla and additional content later in 2023

    high confidence · Keith: 'Worst case scenario, we'll throw in maybe – what is that? – Terror of Mechagodzilla, I think. We'll at least throw that in soon'

  • Bond 60 features a four-spinner configuration, possibly the first pinball game to include four spinners

    high confidence · Keith: 'And so I was like, wow, a four-spinner game. Uh, I'm not sure that's ever been done before.'

  • Dean Grover passed away and received a tribute in the latest Godzilla code update

    high confidence · Keith: 'we put a little tribute to Dean Grover in there because he passed away since the last code update. And yeah, he did a few modes on the game'

  • George Gomez initially designed a spinning disc for his Bond game but removed it; Keith's version features a hybrid of Batman and Avengers disc designs

    high confidence · Keith: 'Originally, George had the spinning disc on his game too, but where he had it, he didn't like it, so I think he yanked it out'

  • Keith does not play his own games recreationally for extended periods after release

    high confidence · Keith: 'once my game gets released, I don't want to play it for a year' and 'I didn't want to play it for a year' regarding Jurassic Park

  • Godzilla introduced a time-based ball save system instead of count-based, with multiple Mothra video sequences tied to each save event

    high confidence · Keith: 'we introduced a new ball save system where you get a certain amount of time' and 'we added like seven or eight little snippets'

Notable Quotes

  • “I don't do this because I need the recognition. I don't need the money. I do it because I enjoy it. And I would much rather have something like that and lose than just, like, plow through finals.”

    Keith Elwin @ early in interview — Reveals Keith's motivation as a competitor—emphasizing enjoyment and competitive excitement over winning

  • “They cheat. They got YouTube now.”

    Keith Elwin @ mid-interview — Humorous explanation for why modern young players are better—access to streaming tutorials vs. discovery in late 90s/early 2000s

  • “Some people want to be told what to do, and other people just don't care.”

    Keith Elwin @ discussing Godzilla design philosophy — Core design philosophy: balancing complex rule depth with accessibility for casual players

  • “the more I play pinball, the more I realize that when you're always in control 100% of the time, I think you kind of lose something.”

    Keith Elwin @ discussing design evolution — Emerging design principle: intentional chaos/risk to add variety and mirror older pinball simplicity

  • “It's a fun game to shoot. The music's good. You know, it's very fast.”

    Keith Elwin @ describing Bond 60 — Personal assessment of Bond 60's gameplay experience

  • “I didn't want the ball to just sit in the pop bumpers for an hour like traditional old school, you know, classic games. You know, we can just – you can super skill shot around, get it right to your flipper and go to town like you would a modern game.”

    Keith Elwin @ Bond 60 design discussion — Design philosophy balancing retro aesthetics with modern gameplay pacing

  • “It's not to say I abandoned it, but I worked closely with Mark Panaccio, who came up with the rules for the game.”

    Keith Elwin @ discussing Bond 60 collaboration — Shows Keith's shift from total cornerstone ownership (Godzilla/Jurassic Park/Avengers) to focused playfield design on Bond 60

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonEscherpersonJosh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonGeorge GomezpersonMark PanacciopersonDean GroverpersonRickperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Keith actively mentoring competitive scene; present at INDISC finals; discussing game design with community in podcast interview; Neil McCrae planning Bond 60 inclusion in UK Open

    medium · Extensive discussion of INDISC finals, mention of 'these kids' like Escher, and Neil McCrae organizing UK Open inclusion

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Positive reception to Bond 60's four-spinner configuration despite initial skepticism from some players about multiple spinners; Keith notes community skepticism preemptively addressed through explanation

    medium · Keith: 'Despite what I see people saying, oh, no, not another disc. I was like, no, this one's a little different.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: INDISC tournament format forcing strategic game selection; Keith and other seasoned players relying on classic/EM game knowledge advantage vs. younger YouTube-educated players; Flash Gordon considered 'drain monster' despite being selecting in championship finals

    high · Keith's detailed discussion of INDISC finals strategy and comment 'They cheat. They got YouTube now.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith articulating evolving design approach: balancing casual accessibility (simple power-up choices) with competitive depth; intentionally incorporating chaos/risky shots inspired by classic games

    high · Keith: 'Some people want to be told what to do, and other people just don't care' and 'when you're always in control 100% of the time, I think you kind of lose something'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Bond license supporting dual-game release (Keith's retro playfield + George Gomez's cornerstone); appears to be first time Stern released two games on single license simultaneously

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.178

0:00
thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast we know you thought we weren't coming back guess what it's episode 101 whoa i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott uh it sounds like more pinball machines are being made where are you buying yours from well i uh i okay do you know i actually did just pick up and i got shipped out the other day is I bought four Insider Connected to install in all my games that are compatible with it, but weren't currently installed because I purchased them before. So Zach and Nicole Mania at Flippin' Out Pinball, they've always been good to me. They're really easy to work with. And not just pinball machines, I got banners from them and you can translate. It's just all that fun stuff that they've always been really a good friend of the show. So we appreciate their support. Yeah, if you need anything, just give them a call, I'll give him a text. I like to message him through Facebook. Zach's easy to get ahold of that way.
1:01
Look at their current list. They just updated it at the end of January. They've got a ton of games on there. Go ahead and hit them up. They will take care of you very well.
1:11
All right, Scott. I want to do one shout-out before we start this. We'll make our guest wait just a little bit longer. Okay. So Jeff Teolis did his top 10 for 2022, and he put us on there at number eight and i appreciate the words that he said that was very nice of him uh we love you too jeff like you're an awesome dude and honestly he's kind of been a mentor in some of this as well yeah are you sure he wasn't drunk when he made that list maybe you know what i have learned from jeff he's only sincere like one time out of the year it's usually the top 10 so i feel like he was either pulling our leg or he was being very sincere franken us Yeah, absolutely. Jeff's always been a good friend of the show, and Marty too. So today we have a very special guest. The guest that's been on our show more times than any other guest. The guest that gets consistently the most downloads. Yes, and he has been named the GOAT for many reasons. The greatest of all time. In playing, definitely has that locked up, the greatest of all time player, and rapidly approaching what could be the greatest of all time designer. So Josh, who do we have on board? None other than Keith Elwin. How are you doing, Keith? Hello. I don't know if I have that wrapped up because, you know, when I was in my prime, there was just no tournaments. So, you know, here I am, an old man. And, you know, these kids like Escher and Jared and Neil are just, yeah, they're very good. And they're going to have so many world championships to win that, yeah, I don't think that's going to last. But I'll enjoy it while I can. That had been one of the best finals I had ever watched, it coming down between you and Escher and that bonus there on Flash Gordon. I know you probably don't want to relive it, but how was that experience for you?

  • Bond 60's reel scoring system is actually mechanical reels with advanced LED lighting, not an LCD screen substitution

    high confidence · Keith explains the lighting creates illusion: 'they do look fake because they are so well-lit with uh the LCD lighting system' but are actual reels

  • Keith and co-designer Mark Panaccio ensured Bond 60 has no random awards and no lock stealing for tournament play

    high confidence · Keith: 'There's no random awards, per se, so it should be fine for competition. There's no lock stealing.'

    • “I wanted to feel like, you know, you're in the car chase or something.”

    Keith Elwin @ Bond 60 design intent — Design intent: conveying Bond theme through frantic pace and looping shots

    Dwight
    person
    Travis Murrayperson
    Neil McCraeperson
    Jeff Teolisperson
    Zach Mandy / Nicole Mandyperson
    Carlperson
    Robperson
    Harrisonperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Bond 60game
    Godzillagame
    INDISCevent
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Avengersgame
    Flash Gordongame
    UK Openevent
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany

    high · Keith: 'So you – this is the first time that Stern has done two games with a, you know, with a single license.'

  • $

    market_signal: Bond 60 production limited to 500 units; explicitly confirmed as scarcity-driven release; Neil McCrae already coordinating tournament inclusion suggesting strong operator/venue interest

    high · Keith: 'we all know that it's limited to 500' and discussion of UK Open planning

  • ?

    community_signal: Keith Elwin maintaining active tournament competition while ramping up design responsibilities (Godzilla code updates, Bond 60 playfield, future project with Harrison); balancing competitive and professional roles

    medium · Keith competing at INDISC finals while managing multiple design projects; indicates sustained competitive engagement alongside design work

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Keith shifting role on Bond 60 from total cornerstone ownership (design + code + licensing) to focused playfield design, collaborating with Mark Panaccio on rules; represents efficiency model for handling dual licenses

    high · Keith: 'when I'm on a cornerstone, I'm dealing with the licensor, I'm dealing with the artists. I'm designing accessories. So it is a very time-consuming process. So in this case, yeah, it was actually kind of nice just to design a playfield'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Bond 60's retro single-level design explicitly differentiated from George Gomez's Bond cornerstone; Keith's game marketed as 'old school design, featuring all the Bonds' with modern pacing/flow rather than traditional EM stasis

    high · Keith: 'the licensee wanted, you know, a retro throwback, old school design' and comparison of old vs. new ball control approaches

  • ?

    product_strategy: Godzilla receiving side mode update with Terror of Mechagodzilla and additional content planned for 2023; demonstrates post-release design evolution

    high · Keith: 'Worst case scenario, we'll throw in maybe – what is that? – Terror of Mechagodzilla, I think. We'll at least throw that in soon, and then work on the one that we that was actually planned from the beginning.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Godzilla side mode update tracking alongside physical topper release (implying hardware bundle); timeline uncertain but planned for 2023

    medium · Josh: 'It's happening simultaneously with the topper, I guess, you might as well be honest.' Keith did not directly confirm topper timing.

  • ?

    technology_signal: Bond 60 featuring trippable inline drop targets (first implementation) and four-spinner configuration (possibly unprecedented); advanced LED lighting system simulating mechanical reel scoring

    high · Keith: 'these are trippable inline drop targets, which is something we've never done' and 'four-spinner game. Uh, I'm not sure that's ever been done before'

    • 3:02
    That was great. I mean, it's just I don't do this because I need the recognition. I don't need the money. I do it because I enjoy it. And I would much rather have something like that and lose than just like plow through finals with, you know, that's over before the third game even starts. I think that's boring.
    3:26
    The fact that Indus uses the format where you cannot pick the same game twice through the entire, you know, the entirety of the finals. so here we are i was third seed and uh zach mccarthy and uh eric stone were ahead of me so i was like well there's no way these guys are getting knocked out in the opening round so i i was i used all my my uh choice picks in my first round and then lo and behold they got kicked out then i was like oh okay well now you know now i have to strategically pick up these games like some of them I'm not even that familiar with like bad girls I had played that once in qualifying had no idea what I was doing um you know didn't even have the right backlash in it so I was like what what is this game you know uh but you know I felt comfortable in it but I had no idea what to do and I was like yeah okay this is fine I'd never picked this as a pick but uh you know that came back and bit me but it was actually it was fun it was a like that um I watched Escher play and I was like, Oh, you know, they helped to watch somebody good play it, you know, on the screen that they're, they had up there. And I was like, okay, that's what you do. And then, so I adjusted my strategy, but yeah, I couldn't quite catch up to him. And then, uh, yeah, I was kind of down to, uh, do I want to pick rush against Escher? Not really. Or I can play flash Gordon. So, uh, yeah, I chose flash Gordon. I own one. It's a fun game, but obviously it's a drain monster. Yeah. So, uh, the fact that him and I, I mean, even he was just like, I can't believe I came back on flash. I hate this game. So I was like, you know what? That was such an exciting ending. Yeah. Even though I lost, it was just like, it was fun. Yes. Yeah. It was fun for us too. I mean, it was, that was quite intense. I think between that moment and Travis Murray getting a double zero. Yeah. I think we had two best moments of that final.
    5:24
    Travis going for the donut. Yeah. I have not seen anything like that since an EM, like the old Gottliebs, that they didn't care if you had zero. And it's like, wow. I think all of us were like, what? I cannot believe he didn't get disqualified. I mean, that would have been awful for him to just walk up and plunge player four. Oh, yeah. Because he didn't notice the different blinking scores. So, yeah, good on him for keeping us aware that such a thing exists. Yeah. I think we were all pretty shocked in that moment. His face said it all, which was great. Yeah. He just looks up, looks back.
    6:02
    But it's great to see you going up against Escher. It's given us quite these games over the last, you know, I've been watching the last few years now, and it seems like you and Escher at some point in every leading up to a final go into the same group with each other. And so it's kind of cool to see the young versus the talented and the experienced. The seasoned. The seasoned, yes, the seasoned player. And it's just really cool to see kind of a transferring of the torch, so to speak. And these young kids, it's getting scary how good they are. Well, they cheat. They got YouTube now. That's fair. When we were playing in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was like they come across a game you'd never seen before. You can't watch a video on it. You can't watch any flipper skills. And so I actually think all these streamings and the rigs that they've come out with and everything has really helped promote these kids getting so good so fast. Because I think pretty much all of them, their parents are into pinball. And they're like, oh, how do I play this game? So they'll watch Carl's stream or whatever. And it's like, okay, this is how you blow this game up. And so they'll take that same approach. And all of a sudden, they're just as good as the rest of us. And so we have to rely on picking these older games. So we still have that going for us.
    7:22
    Well, those older games really are brutal, so it gives us quite a spectacle watch, too. Yeah, I mean, it depends on the game. You know, Flash Gordon obviously is pretty brutal, but, you know, some of the games that they had there at InDesk, like Surf and Safari and even Bad Girls, it was pretty controllable, even though there were no ramps or anything. They were controllable.
    7:40
    I guess, I don't know if you want to give this information away, but what is your go-to old game if you have one in a tournament? minute uh usually it's frontier uh i didn't really i wasn't crazy about how the one there played in classics too so it became supersonic uh that's just a game where you do absolutely nothing with the right flipper but tap ass to the left flipper and i'm pretty good at that so that was my go-to game nice in finals uh it was high speed because i've just been playing that game since it came out I love it. And yeah, I probably have more time logged on high speed than probably any other game. That's including the games you've made, huh? Yes. Oh, my God. You know, once my game gets released, I don't want to play it for a year.
    8:28
    So when was the last time you played Godzilla? Actually, I played it just a couple of days ago because we have a minor update coming out for Carl's thing he's running. there was a couple minor bugs and then we put a little tribute to Dean Grover in there because he passed away since the last code update and yeah he did a few modes on the game so we want to make sure that we recognized everything he did so we put a little tribute in there to him and yeah just cleaned up some bugs yeah so that's the last time I played it but last time I played it for fun it's probably been a while my girlfriend plays it all the time but i'm usually like yeah i think i need another six months and then i'll want to play it again it's the same with all my games after drastic park came out i didn't want to play it for a year same with avengers um but you know it'll come around when i'm not playing it to look for bugs or code ideas then then it becomes fun for me i i've actually been playing jurassic park a lot the last two weeks so even though i i've been playing around and playing Godzilla and all, all the new stuff. And then I was like, I haven't played Jurassic Park in a while. And I am getting really into that game again. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. It was the same thing with me. Um, it's, you know, it's been here for a while, but I never played it. And then, uh, once Godzilla was, you know, got to the point where Rick wasn't working on it full time anymore, then I started playing, uh, Jurassic Park again. And, um, I was just like, ah, this, Man, I really do enjoy this game.
    10:08
    And, of course, my Avengers is still in this box, but I will get it out probably this summer is my goal to get it out of the box in the game room. I actually just sent off my Avengers glove to be customized.
    10:24
    And so it actually looks pretty impressive, and I can't wait to put it back in the game. You make it look like the movie? Yeah. See, that was the thing. The comic book version of the glove looks so different than what they use in a movie. People are like, why is there a dishwashing glove in a game? Yeah. You look at the comic, that's literally what it looks like. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it does. And the cool thing is I just sent you a picture, and you can look at it. And he had the Marvel runes, and he put an LKP on my glove. So I sent it with my friend. So we have Loser Kid Pinball. That will be in the game. Ooh, those are nice. Yeah. Man, you should have made an extra one for me. You didn't ask. Oh, I didn't know. His name is Alex. He'll do it for you. I'll have to hit him up. That's awesome. It looks really cool. Well, and one thing I want to bring up with Godzilla is, like, in Jurassic Park and Avengers, you had those side modes that you could just access from pushing the two flippers in. Why didn't you go with that on Godzilla?
    11:25
    Yes. We are. it's taking longer but we're definitely going to have something worst case scenario we'll throw in maybe what is that? the other one Terror of Mechagodzilla I think we'll at least throw that in soon and then work on the one that we that was actually planned from the beginning hopefully we get that out sometime this year, but it's definitely we will definitely put something in there because I remember when Dwight first put that in Ghostbusters and then we put it in Jurassic. I was like, yeah, this is cool.
    12:13
    Every game should have this. It's definitely, it's getting done. Not sure when, but it's definitely getting done. I just figured when we hit 1.0, I was like, well, dang it. It's not happening, but you heard it here first people yeah it is happening um yeah not at one point it's happening simultaneously with the topper i guess you might be honest i kid i kid i gotta say godzilla is so refined like i can see i've owned all your games and i've i've kind of watched as the code has evolved and you've taken bits and pieces of each code from your other games and and godzilla has somehow just perfectly refine that all together um are you feeling like you're you're becoming like you're you're creating your own style through all this because i think the one complaint people had with avengers is that they got so focused on the gems they thought that's what it was about and then you realize well it's really just shooting the avengers and so with godzilla it feels like there's something accomplished no matter where you're shooting whether you're going for tanks or a bridge or even just raid.
    13:21
    So I guess my question is, do you feel like you're starting to get that figured out and you're just kind of evolving on what you've done before?
    13:28
    So I have a theory here. It seems like a good percentage of the players just want to turn their brain off and flip and have fun. There are other diehards that like, you know, like your example of Avengers, like, well, here's this perk I put on this shot. You know, when do I want to do it? so you know i have to take the approach of yeah not everyone wants to do that some people want to be told what to do and other people just don't care um so a good example is the power up system in godzilla was something entirely different um and when you know we started getting early code into the game and playing it and i was like do i really want to put this menu up here of what you want to buy. So basically, you're building up this power, and then you could cash it in for an award.
    14:25
    And so, yeah, you have six. Okay, and I get all these, this list of things I can choose from, and then they all cost a certain amount of energy. And I talked it over with Rick, and I was like, you know, this is going to slow the game down. This is going to make too many options. People just want, you know, okay I give you one or the other It kind of like you know It was a throwback idea to how the old Data East games worked where you know like Star Wars It like oh do I want that or do I want 20 million You know, you don't spend much brain power thinking of that. So it's like, okay, yeah, one or the other. So we completely refined the power-up system, just one or the other. And I think that it worked out for the best because I haven't heard one person complain that it was like, I don't understand what these power-ups do. I don't understand what to choose and when. it's because we pretty much made it simple. So, you know, my designs are, I think I've learned, you know, it's like, oh, this is what people want. They want, you know, they want some ball time. So in Godzilla, we introduced a new ball save system where you get a certain amount of time, no matter how many actual ball saves you get. And so we implemented that. Even though it's been in all my games, it just wasn't defaulted to it. So this is the first game we defaulted to it because you're plunging onto the play field. The ball drains. It kicks it back out. You drain again. Then you feel robbed. So we implemented that into here, and then we noticed, well, we keep seeing the same video over and over of Godzilla kicking his son. So I talked to Rick. He's like, can we just make this like its own little side story of Manila's quest to beat that monster? So, yeah, we added like seven or eight little snippets. So every time you got a ball save, you'd see a different video. So we kind of had fun with it. Nice. And I think people enjoy that because at least they don't feel robbed. I mean, it's like if you don't get the ball under control after, you know, four or five plunges, that's on you. Right.
    16:23
    So you have a game coming out that was just announced anyway. I know that my friend down the street is on the list to get one, and that is obviously Bond 60. Um, so the first question is, when were you approached to do a play field for Bond? It was probably about a year ago. So whenever George kind of like full-time took over the Bond cornerstone, there were rumblings of, you know, the licensure wanted, you know, kind of a retro throwback old school design, you know, featuring all the Bonds. and um when i heard about this i i immediately volunteered because i knew it was going to be a while before manning's game came out and uh so uh yeah i had a meeting with george he's like yeah you know have fun knock it out of the park and so i uh kind of paused the project i was working on and uh pivoted over to this and uh yeah just got started well my understanding too is we kind of talked a little bit before this. You pretty much just did the design of the play field, whereas most of your other cornerstones, you're helping with the code, you're helping with, you're doing the whole project, right? So how is it different doing just a play field? And do you have any nervousness with the code not lining up with your vision of how your play field is going to be laid out? So, yeah, actually, when I'm on a cornerstone, I'm dealing with the licensor, I'm dealing with the artists.
    18:08
    I'm designing accessories. So it is a very time-consuming process. So in this case, yeah, it was actually kind of nice just to design a play field and then hand it off and then – it's not to say I abandoned it, but I worked closely with Mark Panaccio, who came up with the rules for the game. And, you know, if he did something that I thought was questionable, I'd say, yeah, I'm not sure about this. And then there's some other things that he put in there that's like, yeah, this is pretty cool. So between the two of us, you know, coming up with a, you know, kind of a I wouldn't say a simple rule set, but a more straightforward rule set than like you would have on a cornerstone.
    18:48
    So it was actually a lot of fun. It's a fun game to shoot. The music's good. You know, it's it's very fast. So that was actually my goal was to take, okay, you know, you want a simple, you know, no ramp game. But it doesn't mean I can't make it fast. So we got two control gates on there. So, you know, lots of looping shots. You know, I wanted to feel like, you know, you're in the car chase or something. You know, I just wanted to always keep you on your toes. I didn't want the ball to just sit in the pop bumpers for an hour like traditional old school, you know, classic games. It's like we got a ball saver. We don't need to keep the ball in the pops for 20 seconds. You know, we can just you can super skill shot around, get it right to your flipper and go to town like you would a modern game.
    19:37
    So you this is the first time that Stern has done two games with a, you know, with a single license.
    19:44
    How does that affect your choices when George is designing a game and you are simultaneously designing a game? It didn't really affect, you know, my choices at all. other than we're sharing the same narrator. We have separate recording sessions, but it's the same guy.
    20:06
    Originally, George had the spinning disc on his game too, but where he had it, he didn't like it, so I think he yanked it out for that reason. Where I have it, it's much less in the way, and I think it actually adds a lot to the game. Despite what I see, people saying, Oh, no, not another disc. I was like, no, this one's a little different. It's more of a fusion of the Batman disc and the Avengers disc, whereas it homes to a certain position to kind of be always in a meet zone. So when you hit it, it spins a long time because it has these special bearings that they use on the Batman, and then it homes to a certain position. So it's not like the Avengers disc at all. and obviously everyone's loving the idea for optical spinners was that just like i've got to do this from the get-go or i originally had three and then there was the shot on the left um when you rip that figure eight loop it would just come flying down this left lane it's like wow you know i can put an optic spinner here and get a bunch of spins there too so uh i just uh told rob the engineer he's like you know let's just throw another spinner in here see how it does and then once we shot it it's like oh yeah that's staying and so i was like wow a four four spinner game uh i'm not sure that ever been done before and then uh we actually have an achievement if you get all four spinners going and that the spinning hat you get a achievement you also get a bunch of points it's like 500 points which is a lot in that game oh yeah well i remember you talking on stern insider podcast that like your highest score was 18 000 or something like that that was recorded like last summer so that was before any of the wizard modes were in uh i think my high score is 80 000 now okay which is still um so i think it goes to like 200 something because once you completely roll all the lights then the over the top light adds as the 110 000 so it's actually it's gonna be extremely hard to roll I'm sure Carl will take that as a challenge, but you can only get two extra balls in a game.
    22:19
    So it's going to be pretty challenging. I'm sure someone will find a way to do it. Can you set it to 10 ball, though?
    22:29
    I think it goes to five. Okay. All right. Now, actually, you just got into the scoring, which I wanted to bring up. So when this came out and it was announced a long time ago by George, it was like, hey, it's going to have reels in it. And then we kind of all – I fell into it too. I saw the release and I'm like, are you kidding? They just put an LCD screen back there because it's exactly where the LCD screen is. Yeah, there was a leak of a render, which obviously looked flat because it was flat. It was just a render. right um but it's funny though because even in real life if you stand at a straight straight on angle of the reels they do look fake because they are so well lit with uh the lcd lighting system that they have in there um that they almost do look fake whereas you know because you're used to you know you look at an em you see it's it's bottom lit by one you know yeah incandescent bulb so it has always has this kind of shadowy like it's bright bright on the top and the bottom kind of darker in the middle but this doesn't have that so yeah it does it's not what you're used to seeing as far as a square wheel i gotta say though i love that uh when you posted the picture with it with the the the bezel down or whatever yeah that's a lot yeah yeah yeah we really went all out you know yeah virtual panel open that was great um you did we talked about going with a single level of retro feel what are the advantages and disadvantages of confining your design to a single level play field i mean the the advantage is like creating ramps is actually much harder than you think um because they usually take up a lot of uh entrance space and you didn't got to figure out where do they go and how do they interact with the other ramps and it's actually like um my current um current project i'm working on uh my my engineer harrison and i have been just like it took us like two months to figure out how the ramps would all interact with each other it's very time consuming we do a lot of trial and error so for this you know there's none of that it was just you know hey it's an old school game there are no ramps that means i can put drop targets wherever I want. I can have all these dangerous shots, but lots of shots you can bank off of other shots.
    25:01
    It's kind of a fun, relax your brain, just kind of have a throwback. What did these designers do back when they were designing these games? And then I realized, oh, I have such an advantage because I'm using CAD, and then we can 3D print whatever we need to instantly try whatever shot we're trying to do. So, yeah, it was actually very smooth. I was going to say, too, I mean, this game looks fantastic. I don't recall any old school game, you know, pre-DMD that looks like this. Was there any influence that you got outside of, like, is there one of your favorite games that you were trying to put on here? Or was it just kind of like, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm doing? I wanted to use, so I actually designed a shot that I never used. and I kind of like the Harry Williams designs of the, like both Cheetah and Ali, they had the rope-a-dope little thing and even that nine ball has it too. So I was trying to do my take on that. I was like, well, how about instead of just flying back in the middle of the play field, I have it loop back around.
    26:10
    And so, yeah, I went to work on that and I said, wow, this works really well. Then I had it drop down and then it's like, yeah, this is cool. And, of course, later I find out that I guess Diamond Lady has a very similar shot. I was like, oh, well, oops.
    26:28
    It certainly wasn't what that was from, but, yeah, that was just – I was actually surprised when someone posted that. It's like, oh, okay. I can't say I have much time in that game, but I didn't remember that. I've never even heard of that game. I'm looking it up right now. Diamond Lady, yeah. Somebody posted, oh, it gets very similar. I was like, and I looked at him, I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, wow. This looks straight out of the 70s. I want you also to explain to us, because I heard this on the Insider podcast about these drop targets and how they're unique because somehow you can trigger them with the lockdown button.
    27:04
    Yeah. So these are trippable inline drop targets, which is something we've never done. So, like, if you've played Metallica and somehow a ball got stuck behind a target, it would just be stuck there. so uh yeah we designed the these trippable to prevent suction uh from that from happening but then i realized oh we can actually take advantage of this but you know you get this gadget that'll enable the action button to just drop the target so you don't you know take those dangerous shots of course the trade-off is each one of those uh targets light something on the playfield that helps you so uh when you get this gadget you can bypass that go straight for multi-ball but you don't get like the benefits of actually uh hitting the drops so that's how that came about and um yeah it's actually i'm really glad we put that in i was like skeptical at first it's like why would we need this i don't see how the ball's gonna get stuck behind the targets but then i was like okay yeah i'll take it and i'll use it you know in the at a gadget what's your favorite shot in this game uh definitely that figure eight loop um also the left the left orbit is kind of fun, especially from an in-lane. So each time you roll over an in-lane, it lights a spinner, a related spinner for 10 points of spin. And that's fun. The left in-lane also lights the hat for 10 points of spin. So those are definitely my two favorite shots. I want a list of some of your favorite single level games and why you like them. I grew up playing Frontier, Skateball, and 8-Ball Deluxe, and I liked them all for different reasons.
    28:44
    Frontier is just kind of like, yeah, here's all these dangerous shots. You need to hit these targets that go right down the middle on you half the time. But it's like it dares you to do it, so you've got to try because they're worth too much.
    28:59
    Again, my Skateball, I thought it had some really cool shots. a lot of flow for its time. It had the reverse in-lane, out-lane, which I didn't hate for once because I usually hate those.
    29:15
    Obviously, 8-Ball Deluxe was just an amazing game where, you know, the memory drop targets, the easy theme, that bonus collect skill, that all came together. And, of course, in-lane drop targets. So those are the games I grew up playing. as I kept playing and ramps started coming in But it still some of my favorite games
    29:41
    It's a terrible game, but Alien Star that was at InDesk is like – I mean, it's just a smooth shooting game even though the rules are really bad and you're just shooting a spinner over and over again. It's just something about the simplicity and also the challenge where it says, hey, hit these five alien targets if you want the, you know, multi-ball. It's like when you shoot them, then it just puts the ball everywhere out of control. And there's just something about that that appeals to me. Like the more I play pinball, the more I realize that when you're always in control 100% of the time, I think you kind of lose something. So I'm trying to slowly start incorporating like risky shots that put the ball out of control in my game. And I think that adds the variety you need. So like in Godzilla's case, here's this pop bumper. He's like, well, I'm never going to aim for that. And I was like, well, okay, well, I'll make you aim for it because there's an extra ball here. And there's, you know, you have to hit it to advance some modes. So that's kind of where my head was at with that, you know, trying to get the ball out of control like these old flat, you know, games. It's kind of like pinball used to be. so one question i had about bond is and we all know that it's limited to 500 but did any of the design that you put into this compensate for maybe some competition play because it would be awesome to see something like this a modern throwback in a competition oh yeah neil mccray is already uh talking about how it's going to be the uk open so um there i mean just there's no random awards per se so it should be fine for competition there's no lock stealing so um yeah it's you know mark panacho you know he went over a couple things that he did but there's nothing egregious that you can do in multiplayer that um you can't do in single player which is kind of a shame because i i don't entirely hate lock stealing uh it actually adds a lot of strategy when they're asking us you know what position we want to go and what game in a tournament you know sometimes you strategically pick the go first you know um It adds a different element that you're not used to. How was it working with Mark? Is this his first game doing code on his own for Stern? For Stern, yeah. He's great.
    32:02
    He works from home primarily. Him and I would see each other once a month, and we'd huddle around the game, play it, get some feedback. I'd get some feedback from Jerry Thompson, the sound guy.
    32:13
    He's very receptive to my criticisms. Some of the things I didn't like, I told him about. He either changed them or just trashed them entirely.
    32:23
    He came up with a lot of stuff himself. It's my first time working with a team other than my own Cornerstone team. It was a different experience. I got to work with other guys, and it was fun. Do you think that this design – because originally he came from Bally Williams, and so the last code set he did was in the 90s. Do you feel like this game kind of helped bring him into more of a modern era because of the design and the retro feel it was going for? Yeah, well, his last game was Fishtails, and yeah, he definitely threw his hat in a ring to program this. He was brought on board for our IC system stuff, and when this game was getting developed, I know he threw his hat in a ring. and uh you know george gave it to him and so he was excited and i was excited to have him and uh yeah i think that's a perfect uh launching point for him to uh you know if he wants to program games in the future then you know this is perfect hey look look what i did and this people like it and um you know if he wants to do it again i'm sure uh he can now on this game you had to choose It looks like the six villains, but every Bond movie has a villain. How did you whittle it down to the ones you wanted?
    33:41
    Basically, I had to choose from each era my favorite villain. There was one exception, I think. I think there are two from the Roger Moore. Yeah, the Oddjob and Jaws. no it's oh yeah it's Jaws and um Christopher Walken his character oh gotcha yeah uh that was what because yeah we had one extra and so I it was a wild card and uh I got to pick whatever I want and I was like well I grew up with Roger Moore um did the movie so I decided to pick uh Jaws because he's the most famous and then um Max Zoran because that was his last movie you know Roger Moore's last movie. So that's why I decided on him. Are you a fan of Bond or is it just something you kind of grew up with? I grew up with, uh, I grew up with Bond. Yeah. Um,
    34:38
    I remember, um, for your eyes only it was on HBO. Like they would play all the time and I'd watched that movie so many times. It's probably not one of his better movies, but I really enjoyed it. You know, at times just a dumb little kid. And, uh, so then every time he, you know, a movie came out after that and he's like, all right, this is my bond. you know and of course jaws you know every kid growing up was like oh i want to grow up to be jaws you know it was he just bit a chain with his teeth and you know it was it was just kind of you know a kid thing it's like oh yeah this this movies are cool you know i love them and as i got older uh yeah i didn't i still watch the bond they're still not a movie i haven't seen but yeah as a kid you're just you know worshiping these you know action heroes of the time do you and gomez ever get in it over uh who's the better bond with connery and and more no i already know that george george is always telling stories about you know we would go to the theater and and see these um you know these connery bonds and i was like okay so i yeah i probably never went to a theater to see a more bond but you know so i know he's a lot more he's pretty passionate about uh connery so this is your first game that is a two flipper game yeah so tell me about that versus all your other games because you you you added extra flippers in all the other games and so this is your first traditional fan layout this is true this was by design i wanted you know i wanted just when i think of a throwback game i don't think of like cross shots and other of things so it's like i just want two flippers at the bottom i want a bunch of drop targets i want spinners everywhere that's how i approach this um in this case like um i try to think of a game i think like you know this stupid hotdogging game that we played in um classics 2 where it's got this flipper like built into the slingshot you're like this is totally a gimmick you're never going to use this it's it's like why is this here you know a lot of those uh those extra flippers on these games of those eras just seemed like a waste so uh i was i was focusing more on a classic game with you know traditional flippers in a traditional spot not doing anything wacky you know i i would have loved the i almost thought about doing the twin flippers like harlem and uh that would have been fun yeah yeah it would have been fun but i i decided against at the last second. So you've elevated the bar quite a bit with Godzilla. At least that's the response I'm hearing. Between all the awards it won last year and everyone's claiming it's probably the best game ever made and even Pinside, you've dethroned Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars. Do you feel like there's quite a bar to achieve with your next game you're working on? I always strive to do the best I can. So I take it as a challenge if people say that, oh yeah, he'll never top this game. Then it's like, okay, well, you know, give me a chance. So, um, as much as I love Godzilla, I, I play it now and it's like, ah, you know, there's a couple of things I wish I'd done differently. And, um, you know, hopefully I learned from that. And, um, just one of these days I'll, I'll release the perfect game in my mind and then I can just retire.
    38:03
    We hope that day never comes then. Keep falling short. well and listening to gomez he's done quite a few interviews over these last couple months about bond and whatnot and he said that they were going to the two cornerstones again this year and we've kind of done the math and it kind of puts eddie he hasn't done anything really since mandalorian and jack danger he still hasn't put anything out since that the jp pin does that mean we're not seeing anything from you this year yeah no trippies for me next year no and none this year either what the heck yeah well you know it's nice to give um my programmer rick nagles you know a break he's uh oh yeah he's been busting his ass because we had back-to-back short schedule games and that was um avengers and godzilla were both considered short schedule because they were kind of on each other's heels so um he you know got through those and we're like hey man take a break you need to serve it so um yeah here we are it's it won't have a nice like fully fleshed out game upon release whereas godzilla i think released it maybe 0.8 uh i think people saw the bones and realized oh yeah this is gonna be a cool game but in reality we were still writing rules like you know four or five months ago for that so um yeah it'll be uh nice to give this team a little bit of a breather has it been a different experience too and do you feel like you've been able to be more creative with your new game because of the breathing room you've received oh yeah i actually uh pretty much completely redesigned two or three shots on it already just because i've had the time uh time to like you know i do what's called a whitewood zero where i just take existing parts and bend them and uh either 3d print what's missing or just like you know, just finagle parts together and try out shots. And, um, it's nice to be able to have that time to, you know, get the rough kinks out and it's like, Oh, this is, this works great. This is never going to work. I need something else here. And so, yeah, it's actually, it's, it's nice. I won't lie. So how do you design a great shot? Like what, what makes the shot feel Oh, great. To me, it's a combination. Is it smooth and does it do something interesting?
    40:30
    So in a case, we'll use a Bond 60. This is an example. So you asked me my two favorite shots. Well, the figure eight shot is not only smooth, but it does something interesting.
    40:42
    The left orbit shot, it's smooth. It's not necessarily interesting, but what it does, it feeds your right flipper on the fly for you to hit something. that is more interesting. So that to me, that's, what's important is, uh, is the shot itself interesting? No, then it's got to set something up. It's either got to feed a device that's interesting or feed another shot coming up. That is interesting. That's how I approach it. So I don't want to have like a clunky shot leading into an unfun device, you know, that's not fun all around. So, um, those are my two rules. If you have a clunky shot, It's got to be there for a reason. It just has to be there.
    41:25
    Otherwise, there's no excuse. That's how I feel about the original Jurassic Park. The loop shot's great and all, but it is clunky, and you're lucky to get to go around a couple of times.
    41:36
    Which loop shot? The one on the original Jurassic Park. The Data East one. The Data East. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought you meant my spinner shot, the center spinner shot on my Jurassic, which I intentionally have that clunky because originally that flew around so fast that you didn't have time to react. So I have it kind of like slamming into the back of the panel and to slow it down. Yeah, like I said, sometimes a clunky shot, like is that a fun shot? No, but it sets up your upper flipper shot, which is important and does have smooth shots. So I need advice how to consistently hit the Raptor Tower shot. because that is the most elusive luck shot for me in that game. Really? Yeah. That flipper should be a line to pretty much hit it. It's the shot above that that I designed to be extremely hard. Oh, yeah. No, I hit that one all the time, the one that circles around. Are you sure your flipper's not a line too high? I don't know. I'll have to double check. Probably what it is. Yeah, because I'm like that Raptor Tower shot, I'm like, oh, I got it like one out of ten times. but I can always sling that sucker around to the upper shot. Oh, yeah. That upper shot's death. That was never designed to be a repeatable shot. So what I did is I made it, you know, the tower combo. See if you can shoot that and then the Raptor Tower. I thought that was a fun one-two punch. Yeah. But, yeah, that shot was definitely not, you know,
    43:06
    meant to be de-looped or do anything that's super interesting. It was just meant to scream the ball out of control. Oh, yeah. No, it does. Which is exactly what it does.
    43:16
    I can de-loop it a lot. Well, I think we actually tried code where the up-post comes up for that, and it was just like, nah, because it bounced halfway back across the playfield. It's like, nah, we'll just have it come flying at you. Yeah, no. Yeah.
    43:28
    Well, and if you forget to tap the flipper, the upper flipper, you're like, oh, my gosh, it made me go down the middle. so your new game can we ask how many flippers you got on this one there are two full-size flippers and there are two other flippers other flippers you're bringing the banana flipper back aren't you i am bringing the banana flipper yes we're going iron maiden 2.0 but with banana flippers and they're gonna look like hot dogs yeah i miss the banana flipper days nothing quite like playing a time warp okay so Keith you are 12 years old I will say it has three flippers on one side there's your hint three flippers on one side it's Saturday afternoon you a 12 year old kid you can watch any Bond movie on HBO at four in the afternoon What are you picking for your eyes only Haven you seen that a million times Yeah, but that was just, that was the movie that got me hooked on bond when I was young. So yeah, like I said, I'm not saying it was the best bond. It clearly was not, but that's, that's when I grew up watching. Is that the one where they climb up like in Greece, like to that Chateau on the, There's like an ice skater up there or something like that. Yes, yes. Very inappropriate relationship that she tries to have with – yeah, that's that one. Yeah, okay. It's cringey today. It is, yeah. It's definitely cringeworthy, but I do remember that one. Of course, I remember the one that came out that for some reason we watched a billion times was Octopussy.
    45:09
    So that was always an interesting bond to like, hey, you want to watch that? I remember when that came out. I don't remember much about it. I remember after I watched For Your Eyes Only, I watched Moonraker. I was super excited. It's Jaws in space, and then it was like, oh, this is not that good. Yeah, Moonraker was not that good. I don't think I've seen it all the way through because they kept doing it like the ABC Sunday Night movie, and I think the only reason why they kept doing that is because they probably didn't have to pay anything. but no yeah other than that i liked i liked all the uh the rajamar movies that i saw um yeah moonraker wasn't my favorite but i like the artwork yeah what one was it that i shared with you the other day scott it makes me laugh every time because like for some odd reason bond always had to be attacked by an animal in his hotel room and so there's one where they drop a cobra it's a snake yeah where he uses a blowtorch on it he uses his hairspray and like a lighter his aqua that hairspray yeah it's funny because i had never really watched the uh the connery bonds and when i had the old school netflix account where they sent you uh dvds i actually made it a point to watch all those and i thoroughly enjoyed them and i was like i'm actually surprised because i was expecting it just to be way too cheesy and campy for me but i i thought they work great. So how does it affect your time now that Stern, at least for the foreseeable future doctor, George Gomez has announced that they're doing two cornerstones. How does that affect your process? Because that seems to slow it down a little bit because with four designers, you probably were on about a 16 month design schedule. Well, that kind of pushes you out to a 24-month design schedule?
    47:05
    Well, nothing changes design-wise because we have to design the game like it's still coming out when it was originally coming out.
    47:15
    It doesn't mean we all get to take a break and not work on it. It just means that hopefully when the game does release, the code's done, everything is buttoned up tight.
    47:27
    Like I said, this is a nice break for us to actually have the time to have everything buttoned up. We watch the Jack Danger stream when we do it. No one's going to say, oh, why is there a placeholder stuff here? Hopefully that's not going to happen and we can deliver a kick-ass game day one. I was going to say, so obviously you took on four optical spinners and that's a record as far as we know as many spinners on a pinball machine. Are you going to try to attempt something like Haunted House and have like a basement, main level, upper level, and do like nine flippers instead of eight?
    48:08
    Oh, I thought you were going to bring up inline spinners. That's what I was about to say. Why don't you do inline spinners? Do four inline spinners.
    48:17
    I imagine that probably doesn't work as well as you think, but that would be interesting. Well, what if you fed it to like the rocket kickback on Guardians of the Galaxy and it shoots it up through four optical spinners? I'm guessing you would see four broken optical spinners. Okay. This is my wish list for Stern. You can just take it for what it is. My only complaint about this Bond 60 is it's limited to 500, so you're not going to get the Keith Elwin saturation market, market saturation that you're typically getting for a game. So here's my wish list. Sometime down in the future, they release a game that's priced for the masses with the same play field. So just put that in the back of your head and take that to George. Okay, I'll tell him.
    49:10
    I thought you were going to ask him outright and say, are you going to do that? No, I guess. Come on, come on. I'm not going to ask that. But I'm just suggesting because I would have to sell a couple games to afford this even though I have considered it.
    49:28
    But I still have all four L ones, so I just need a fifth. You could brag you have all the cornerstone L ones. How's that? Yeah, there you go. I wish I still did. There's only so much – that's the bane of our existence, right? There's only so much room and only so much money. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's just crazy to think about how long pinball has been around, how many games have been produced. and how few in the past 30 years have actually been trashed. I mean, they're all going somewhere.
    49:55
    So back in the day, the operator would just throw it away, but those days are long gone. So every game produced is getting parked somewhere indefinitely. So that's why everyone's problem is space. Yeah, I was going to say, even like a decade ago, I remember when I first got into the hobby, it seemed like operators still didn't realize what they had. There was a lot of operators that run nickel arcades or whatever, and it was, you know, once they'd run its time, they'd either trash them or, I mean, that's how I got my World Cup. I got it for like 500 bucks and the guy thought he was ripping me off and didn't have a soundboard. And I was like, I'll take it, you know? Yeah. Different times. It's weird. Keith, how many games do you have? Because you basically had a pinball business down in San Diego before you moved up to Stern, right? Yeah, I have less than 40, more than 30, I think. Okay. How do you choose which ones to get besides the ones you design?
    50:53
    I actually haven't bought a game in quite a long time. But I would always, you know, back when I was running the business, I would buy something that, hey, is this on location anywhere else in San Diego or L.A.? No, then I had to have it. But case in point, I bought a Secret Service just because I had not seen one on location since I was a kid. No one else had one. I bought that. I bought a Banzai Run for the same reason.
    51:23
    That pretty much influenced my decisions. Some games I just bought because I wanted to have. I bought Walking Dead Premium just because I wanted to have it. I had no intention of operating it. So it's just how you're feeling. I bought Sea Witch because I thought it looked cool at this bar by the ocean that we had and people loved it they also loved B-D-E-R some of those games I bought for dirt cheap that ended up operating for years it was an incredible time so yeah if you're an enthusiast operator some of those games that you just don't see anywhere they can be gold well it's funny some of these older games too that my wife has played Riviera recently within the last six months or something like that. She's like, that's the game I got to have. And people keep sending me listings. But it's funny because it's just not a game you think of. It's not one of those, you know. I think the problem is we get in this mindset that anything made pre-'70s is all the same, maybe even pre-'75. And there were some unique ideas that went into those games. Like you said, they might be gimmicky to a point, but it's cool to explore that because we don't see that anymore I think any enthusiast operator is going to try to put something else on location that nobody else is and I think that's actually going to work in a favor of this bond being limited obviously you're not going to see maybe we're on location but there are going to be these enthusiast operators like well if I put this out where else is anyone going to play this is this going to draw people to my bar Yeah, it works. And trust me, because I've been there, I did that. Anytime I came across a gem that I didn't know found location anywhere in Southern California, the people would come play it.
    53:15
    Yeah, and that's like Sunshine Laundromat having Supreme. I don't think I'll ever play Supreme unless I go to Sunshine. That game is surprisingly fun. Oh, I'm sure it is. Yeah, I remember that there was a Whitewood in our lab, all of us, because this is before we were working from home. We would have daily tournaments on those things. It was just so damn fun to just play a quick, simple, fun game that actually wasn't that easy to beat, but it was fun.
    53:46
    So are you guys still working from home? Because you're getting ready to move, or have you already moved to a new operating facility?
    53:54
    I actually don't know what's going on with that. But we are – I mean, I work – I mean, last week I went in every day, but it depends what I'm doing. If I'm writing rules or doing any kind of CAD work, I do it from home. If I'm actually working on Whitewoods, you know, test lab, anything, I'm there at the office. So the programmers are mostly working from home. Okay. Yeah, we didn't know if it was business as usual or if COVID has now made the unnormal now normal. So Keith, what are you looking forward to in the next year?
    54:31
    Oh boy. Finally going to an international tournament in May. I'm going to Germany. Something has been on my list to do, but it's everything always aligns improperly and it doesn't happen. So that's what I'm most looking forward to.
    54:50
    All right. That sounds good. Germany's on my bucket list too. That reminds me. So did you qualify as the state champion for Illinois?
    55:00
    Because I saw Escher did Wisconsin. I didn't play in that. I qualified in California, but since I was out there the previous week at Indus, I didn't want to come back. So I forfeited my spot.
    55:15
    You figure second at Indus is good enough. Yeah, yeah. Keith, always a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much. we have some more, some more updated beanies. We'll get out to you. That sounds great. And once again, we do appreciate you helping out with, with flipping the script on autism, man. That's, it was a great cause and we're happy that you helped us out with it. Yeah, that was fun. That was, when I walked into it, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do, but Amanda was saying, what do you want to do? I was like, I don't know. Let's just wing it. And it was a lot of fun. Yeah. I don't think any of us knew what we were going to do. It was, it was such a unique experience. experience it was it was pretty wonderful by the end of it though it's funny though because i was telling zach because he was trying to sell his deadpool before that and now i'm looking at him like so you're ready to sell this he's like you're you're joking me right like i've got keith that's touched it now it's rogers touched it that thing was butter that was a great deadpool oh yeah and i i love the mods that he put on there oh yeah the the nsfw mods where you're like wow just just ask about great great i guess greg But thanks again. I guess if you don't want anyone to get a hold of you, where do you want them to send you email that they're not going to get a response to? Fan letters. Just send directly to George.
    56:39
    Yeah. Send it to my guys. All right, Keith. Well, definitely love all the games and can't wait to see what the next ones are laying out for you. And I know you'll do a great job. I'm really glad you crossed over from playing to designing because you certainly impacted the newest generation of enthusiasts. So it's been a lot of fun playing and owning those games. Well, it's good to hear that all my decades of experience can now be put to new use. But thanks. I appreciate it. Okay. Thanks, Keith. I'm going to say, it's been five, six years since you created Archer. Did you think this would all come about because you did a homebrew in your garage?
    57:22
    That was my hope. When the P-Rox's thing came out and people could make their own games, I was like, God, when I was a kid, I used to design games all the time, just stupid household items. I was like, I'm going to see if I can do this. And then I was like, hey, this thing actually shoots pretty fun. And when Stern reached out to me, I was like, yeah, let's talk.
    57:45
    Cool. Nice. Well, I think it's been good for both of you. Yeah. No complaints. I do miss Southern California. Oh, yeah. Oh, you don't like the weather in Illinois is not awesome?
    57:57
    It is awesome three months a year, yes. Yeah. You should come here where the snow foot or our snow is at three foot right now. Yeah. We have a lot of snow right now. Oh, it's ridiculous. Awful.
    58:09
    Well, if you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. You can also get a hold of us on the socials on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Twitch, maybe YouTube. All at Loser Kid Pinball.
    58:22
    We're trucking along, man. I don't know what else to say, Scott. Yeah. See you in about two weeks. See you in two weeks. Shut up and sit down.
    58:58
    Bye.