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Episode 158: Andrei Massenkoff…on the fly!

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·51m 51s·held·Oct 5, 2018
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Andre Massenkoff on aggressive play style, mental game mastery, and competitive pinball excellence.

Summary

Andre Massenkoff, a legendary competitive pinball player and top-25 IFPA-ranked competitor, discusses his career trajectory, playing philosophy centered on aggressive "on-the-fly" style rather than ball trapping, the critical importance of mental game management in tournaments, and his upcoming participation in the exclusive Power 100 event at Josh Sharpe house. He reflects on his 2011 Papa World Championship win on F-14 Tomcat, his preference for Steve Ritchie-designed games, and offers coaching advice on knowing the machine, knowing yourself as a player, and maintaining mental discipline during competition.

Key Claims

  • Andre won the Papa World Championships on F-14 Tomcat in 2011 with a score under one million points in a final game lasting less than 10 minutes

    high confidence · Andre Massenkoff directly stated this during the interview; he picked F-14 Tomcat as the final game for variance against strong opponents Kaylee, Jim Belzito, and Josh Sharpe

  • Andre's aggressive, trap-free playing style is a deliberate choice rooted in feeling more in control when both flippers are available, even though it appears wild

    high confidence · Andre explained: 'When I'm flipping, I don't feel in control when I've got a ball or two trapped on one flipper because I can't use that flipper while those balls are trapped. And I like having the freedom of using them both.'

  • Andre's first major tournament win was at 2004 Papa B Division Finals against heavyweight players including Andy Rosa, Drew Sedolia, and Brian Dominy

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis introduced this achievement and Andre confirmed it was a pivotal confidence-building moment that led to qualifying for A Division

  • Andre reached the Papa 2006 Final Four tied for first place going into the final game, ultimately taking fourth

    high confidence · Andre stated: 'Papa 2006 was huge, being in the final with Lyman, Keith, and Donovan, getting to that final, going in the final game tied for first with Donovan and Lyman... ended up taking fourth'

  • Steve Ritchie games are Andre's favorite because they have consistent flow, kinetics, and quick action that satisfies him as a shot maker

    high confidence · Andre explicitly stated: 'Steve Ritchie games consistently have this flow and this kinetics and call-outs and quick action that satisfies me the most as a shot maker. So, yeah, Steve Ritchie, that's definitely my favorite designer.'

  • Northern California's pinball scene has significantly improved over the past 10 years due to new locations and more players getting involved

    high confidence · Andre stated: 'Northern California...has become better and better as far as having games available to play' and credited developments like Free Gold Watch opening in 2012 and growth of events like California Extreme and City Champ

Notable Quotes

  • “When I'm flipping, I don't feel in control when I've got a ball or two trapped on one flipper because I can't use that flipper while those balls are trapped. And I like having the freedom of using them both, even though it can help me sometimes in certain games.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~22:30 — Explains the philosophical foundation of his aggressive, trap-free playing style and why he eschews cradle-based control strategies used by many elite players

  • “Bad things are going to happen. Never compound physical errors with further mental errors...The only thing you need to take away from that is what you learned from that mistake. But you can't be hard on yourself.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~40:45 — Core mental game advice from his old baseball coach that he applies to competitive pinball; emphasizes moving forward without tilt

  • “Steve Ritchie games consistently have this flow and this kinetics and call-outs and quick action that satisfies me the most as a shot maker.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~27:00 — Articulates his designer preference and why Steve Ritchie's design philosophy aligns with his play style

  • “A tournament, especially a big one, is not a good time to experiment with trying things that are new. Once in a while, maybe it's the best thing you can do if that's the only way that you can catch up to that player score-wise, but generally staying within your comfort zone when something's on the line should help.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~36:00 — Key competitive philosophy emphasizing staying true to one's game under pressure rather than imitating other players

  • “The mental side is so powerful, and there's so many things to consider. But the best thing is just knowing yourself, knowing where you slip up, and then finding a way to address it.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~42:00 — Summarizes his coaching philosophy: self-awareness is the foundation of improvement

  • “I won that game just from fumbling around and just keeping the ball in play and hitting shots and missing shots, and that got me enough points to win it.”

    [name withheld pending review] — Demonstrates his aggressive on-the-fly approach winning a championship on one of pinball's most volatile and drain-prone machines

Entities

[name withheld pending review]personSteve RitchiepersonKeith ElwinpersonJosh SharpepersonJack DangerpersonZach WoolenspersonJim Belzitoperson

Signals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Andre Massenkoff articulates his deliberate rejection of ball-trapping and cradle-based control in favor of aggressive on-the-fly play, rooted in psychology of flipper control rather than mechanics alone

    high · Extended discussion of comfort with bilateral flipper freedom vs. feeling loss of control with trapped balls; philosophical distinction between appearing wild vs. feeling in control

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Andre provides detailed mental game framework for tournament success: (1) Know machine rules, (2) Know specific machine behavior, (3) Know yourself; emphasizes avoiding tilt, not experimenting in high-stakes matches, and learning from failures without compounding with mental errors

    high · Structured three-pillar coaching framework; baseball analogy about not compounding physical errors with mental errors; specific examples of tournament preparation and focus strategies

  • ?

    community_signal: Northern California pinball scene has matured significantly over the past decade through venue growth, event development, and player talent attraction, becoming a regional powerhouse despite losing Keith Elwin to other areas

    high · Andre's testimony about Free Gold Watch opening in 2012, development of circuit events like California Extreme and City Champ, increased game availability, West Coast players traveling from Canada to San Diego to compete in Bay Area events

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Andre's playing style (aggressive, flow-focused, quick action) is perfectly aligned with Steve Ritchie's design philosophy, demonstrating how designer style directly influences which players excel on specific games

    high · Andre explicitly named Steve Ritchie as favorite designer because games have 'flow and kinetics and call-outs and quick action'; purchased AC/DC Premium (Steve Ritchie); identified TNA as both dream game and challenge due to its quick responsiveness

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.152

0:00
If you're going to San Francisco, you're going to meet some gentle people there. It's time now for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teolis. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us, pinballprofile at gmail.com. please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. I love talking to everybody in this format on Pinball Profile, whether it's a game designer, whether it's somebody running a charity, or one of the world's greatest pinball players, as we have today. Andre Massinkoff joins us. Hi, Andre, how are you? All right, doing great, Jeff. How are you? Very, very good. Now, I last saw you at Pinberg on stage, and we will get to that incredible Final Four match in a little bit, but earlier in the year, I saw you up in Toronto. at the IFPA Championships. And I do have to ask you right off the bat, because I think you had a rental car and you went from the airport there. You took the most expensive toll road ever, the 407. And I am dying to know what that toll was for you. Okay, you were nice enough to tell me about that toll road after I had finished taking it at IFPA.
1:19
Yeah, I had no idea. I knew it was a toll road, and honestly, I'd never been on a toll road that expensive. And it's really interesting you ask how much it was, because I just got the bill on my credit card bill built through the car rental company. And it was some weird number, Canadian, but it came out to $25 even, American. Oh, you got lucky. It seemed reasonable enough. It got me to IFPA right when practice started. So I got my full practice time on account of taking that road. So absolutely worth it. A necessary evil for sure. I mean, I think Zach Wollens and I were joking about it, too, but your ride to get to IFPA was certainly a lot better than his. That route he had to take through Atlanta and then back and forth. You had it easy. $25, piece of cake. Yeah, I just can't imagine what it would be like for commuters. And, Jeff, you might hear some planes going by. It's fleet week out here in San Francisco. Two Blue Angels just flew over where I'm at. It's pretty exciting, pretty loud. You might hear them again. Anyone hearing those loud noises, those are the Blue Angels. I thought it might be F-14 Tomcat, you're reliving 2011 when you won the Papa World Championship. Was that maybe in the background there at all? Do you have that going at all times? You know, in my mind, sometimes I do. That's a great song, and gosh, I know I won the Papa World Championships on F-14 Tomcat seven years ago, but that game's really stuck with me, and I don't know, I think about it a lot. It's nice of you to make that connection with the Blue Angels here. Maybe they are Tomcats up there, who knows? General Yagov might be up there too. I don't know if that game will be at Josh Sharpe's house when you go for the Power 100. If he ever had it, I'm sure he's getting rid of it because, surprise, he took a second in that Papa Championship back in 2011. Although it really did come down to that game because I guess any one of the four of you could have won the championship based on that game. Yeah, the thing with Kaylee and Josh, they're a point ahead of me. So if I took second and Jim took first, I'd be in a tiebreak with one of them. And if I took first, I would have won outright, which is what I did. But that was a quick, quick game to decide it all. I mean, less than 10 minutes, even though it's a multiball game. Nobody started multiball. A lot of drains out that left out lane because that kickback is hard to light. And once it's lit and used, well, it's just off again. That was so draining. I mean, for me, it was shocking when I won because it all happened so quickly. And I won with less than a million points. That's not much on that game for sure. Now, did you pick that game, or who picked it? I picked that for the final game. I had choice of game, and there were some other games there that I like and had experience on, but playing against Kaylee, playing against Jim Belzito, playing against Josh Sharp, thinking about Monster Bash, I mean, we can all play it well. So I didn't think I had a decided advantage on that, especially if I picked it, I'd go first, so they'd know exactly what they'd need to beat me. So I picked something with a little more variance, hoping that the gamble would pay off, and it did. See, now, watching back and looking at what you did in 2011 when you won that, my guess, without you saying that, would have been he's picking that because of the speed of the game and the style of play that you do, Andre. When anybody talks about playing on the fly, sometimes they don't even say on the fly. They use your name as a verb, or you're Andre-ing it, because you just go, go, go. I don't know if I've ever seen you cradle up. Yeah, not in any serious way during multi-balls. It's pretty rare that I'll do that. There's certain incidents where I like to, like on, let's see, Elvira and the Party Monsters, after hitting the jackpot, I will trap up on one of the flippers and just keep hitting that right ramp. Same thing with Diner. After hitting the jackpot, keep shooting the left ramp and being trapped up on the left flipper. But those are pretty rare instances, and I don't trap too much. F-14, of course, if you get to the multiball, you can do a more controlled multiball. But ultimately, all the shots are dangerous. I mean, there's no shot that rewards you with something safe besides a lock shot. And those were hard to find in that game. It was so drainy. And so it did work out, you know, in my favor that time. I don't know. I was just surprised how quickly it went down again because they were great players, but it was an evil, evil machine. And I won that game just from fumbling around and just keeping the ball in play and hitting shots and missing shots, and that got me enough points to win it. But because of your style of play, I guess that doesn't rattle you because you're used to balls flying everywhere. And that is something I always wonder, with all the great players that you've seen, and you've mentioned some of them in California, whether it be Jim Belsito, Neal Schatz, Keith Elwin when he was there, all these great players, when you saw them cradle up, especially in multi-ball, did you ever think, I'm going to try that? Boy, I have considered it. And I remember the exact moment I first saw it, 1994 State Championships of Ohio, Paul Madison on Rescue 911. And I could not believe what I was seeing. He played endlessly in multi-ball. With ball trapped on the right flipper, he'd shoot the right ramp with the left flipper. Then he two-staged by flipping only the upper flipper to hit jackpot. It kind of sickened me because I thought, wow, I can't do that. And when will it end? And this is my opponent. and I'm definitely losing this game. And that's where I first got exposed to it. And, of course, over time I see the value of it. I see how it's executed. These guys get really good, consistent results based on control. And it works. And I've experimented with it. Honestly, I feel very uncomfortable trapping up, especially during multi-ball. I'll still play with traps and passes. Like if you see me play out of the family, I'm not too wild. I mean, I shoot the chair. I catch it. maybe pass it to the left flipper from the right flipper, and then hit the ramp and then shoot the chair again. And maybe the wildest thing I do is play a very freestyle multiball on Adams or quick multiballs and maybe shoot the chair from the right flipper that people do less just because it's more dangerous. So it's just I'm out of my comfort zone. But people talk about control, and the reason I flip so much is because I feel in control. When I'm flipping, I don't feel in control when I've got a ball or two trapped on one flipper because I can't use that flipper while those balls are trapped. And I like having the freedom of using them both, even though it can help me sometimes in certain games. My style is very amenable to, like, Metallica. I get a lot of fuel targets and get double scoring more often or more captive balls. So I like often playing that style. So it can help me in other places, like Jackpot, where I've learned to slow down my game to get it under control, to get optimum results and be able to compete with the best players, a wild style generally is not going to win it for you against the kind of caliber players that are out there. But I feel in control when I'm flipping wildly, even though those balls certainly don't look in control. Andre, is it safe for me to say maybe your favorite designer or you certainly like Steve Ritchie-type games because of the flow? 100%. And I love Pat Lawler games, and there's some other great games. I love Demolition Man. But in the end, Steve Ritchie games consistently have this flow and this kinetics and call-outs and quick action that satisfies me the most as a shot maker. So, yeah, Steve Ritchie, that's definitely my favorite designer. I guess, yeah, the one big machine, modern machine I invested in a few years back was the ACDC Premium.

  • The mental game is more critical to success than the physical game, with three key pillars: know the machine's rules, know the specific machine's behavior, and know yourself

    high confidence · Andre explained his pinball class recommendations: 'Number one, know the machine, the rules of the machine. Number two, know that specific machine you're playing... Number three, know yourself, know your style, know what you like, know your weaknesses'

  • Andre competes and travels minimally except for Papa and Pinberg, but traveled more in 2014 to build circuit points, which resulted in his best year

    high confidence · Andre explained: 'That year of 2014 was exceptional for me, and I think because I played sharper that year, because I was competing more in these heavy-duty tournaments with heavy-duty players'

    • @ ~14:00
    Kaylee
    person
    Paul Madisonperson
    Brian O'Neillperson
    Jeff Teolisperson
    Pinbergevent
    Power 100event
    Papa World Championshipsevent
    IFPA Championshipsevent
    Pinball Expoevent
    California Extremeevent
    City Champevent
    Indy 500game
    F-14 Tomcatgame
    Free Gold Watchvenue
    [name withheld pending review]organization
  • ?

    content_signal: Power 100 tournament at Josh Sharpe's house will receive streaming coverage via Jack Danger, suggesting increased media visibility for elite competitive pinball events

    high · Jeff Teolis stated: 'I'm glad Jack Danger is going to be streaming part of that. This is going to be something to see.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Power 100 represents a novel tournament format (six-fair-strike elimination, top-250 ranked players only, at dedicated venue with controlled difficulty) designed to test elite competitive pinball at highest level

    high · Andre described format as unique and thrilling, expressed both excitement and fear about the challenge, noted Josh Sharpe will not set games up easily to avoid endless multiballs

  • ?

    historical_signal: Andre's first exposure to advanced multiball trapping strategies occurred at 1994 Ohio State Championships via Paul Madison on Rescue 911, demonstrating how foundational techniques spread through competitive community observation

    high · Andre recalled specific moment: 'I remember the exact moment I first saw it, 1994 State Championships of Ohio, Paul Madison on Rescue 911. And I could not believe what I was seeing.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Andre's limited tournament travel (focused on Papa and Pinberg) contrasts with his peak competitive year 2014 when he increased travel and played heavier tournaments, resulting in significant skill improvement

    high · Andre stated 2014 was exceptional because he 'played sharper that year, because I was competing more in these heavy-duty tournaments with heavy-duty players' and this brought 'skill level up in a consistent way'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Andre's analysis of multiball management shows designer choices directly impact play style viability: games with tight target spacing (TNA) require quick responsiveness and penalize trapping; wider playfields (WPT) allow more methodical play

    high · Andre contrasted TNA (quick, tight, difficult to trap) with World Poker Tour (wide open, allows slower play); noted games like Cherry Bomb and Lost in the Zone create situations where firing away is more effective than control

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Keith Elwin's documented approach of selecting safest shots represents alternative competitive philosophy to Andre's aggressive on-the-fly style, both effective but with different risk profiles and psychological foundations

    medium · Jeff Teolis noted 'Keith Elwin always looks for what's the safest shot. I mean, yeah, there are some shots that are going to be more risky and obviously have more reward, but he ideally likes to take the safest shot'

  • ?

    community_signal: Andre actively coaches and mentors emerging players through pinball classes, interviews, and direct advice, serving as informal ambassador for proper mental game development and self-awareness in competitive community

    high · Andre provides detailed coaching framework, references pinball classes at shows, recalls mentoring a young German player about emulation of his style, emphasizes importance of knowing yourself

    • 8:57
    Of course, that's a Steve Ritchie game, and I love just about everything he's made. I was thinking of another game, a newer game that you must love too, because I don't know anybody who can cradle up on that game. It's very, very difficult. Just go, go, go would be TNA. That has to be a dream game for you. I like the quickness, but it is a tough game. Any game where what you're shooting at is closer to the flippers, you get these rebounds very quickly, and they're really hard to manage in multiball. TNA versus World Poker Tour, where there's this very wide open play field, So it's so quick and the responsiveness needs to be there. I think it's more of a challenge for me because of that. You know, misses produce strains and just wild ball action, but it's also more fun when you have that great ball in the super jackpots and destroying reactors. So that is a special game and relatively simple rule-wise. I mean, what do you do? You go for multi-ball, you blow up reactors. The only real question is what order do you want to go into that? My dream game for you would be almost like a hybrid, something that hasn't been done. But if you could just imagine balls coming out of the plunger like the game Hyperball, and you actually have flippers to react, that would be great to watch you, Andre, play something like that. That sounds like a lot of fun. I would like to try that game. You know, Apollo 13 does have that 13-ball multiball, but it's pretty unrealistic because there's so much traffic. You're hitting balls into other balls until you get down to a more reasonable number. But, yeah, maybe someday that game will come along. Well, you mentioned Apollo 13. I think of also Indiana Jones, the newer game by Stern, and that has several multi-balls as well. What is the good number? I mean, you can't manage eight or more, so do you let a few of them drain, or what's your strategy when eight come at you at once? That's a great question. I definitely don't trap. You know, I do fire away. I just had a big, I don't know what it was last night at league, five- or six-ball multi-ball. I never had. It was like the Robin one on the new code on Batman 66, and I just fire away. You know, when you've got six balls, Twilight Zone, Lost in the Zone, another spot might be Guardians of the Galaxy, Immolation Initiative when you've got a lot of balls, or Cherry Bomb. Sometimes I will let some go to get my shot. Like in Lost in the Zone, I want to get the ball up to the power field on Twilight Zone. Or on Cherry Bomb, I really want to get it into Groot's mouth when it's ready, and it's really hard to do with a lot of balls. Six balls is a blast. I mean, it's a rush, but I think when I get down to three or less, I feel like it's far more manageable to me. Maybe my ideal number would be something like three. Two seems like too few because you're so close to losing the multiball when you lose one of them. But there's always that Game of Thrones add-a-ball if you're Martel, so you can get some backup on some of the games or a nice add-a-ball mystery award on something like Deadpool more recently or the new Pirates. Andre, you've had such a great history too. And for those who may not know how it all started for you, I mean, you've been playing since you were three, four years old. I guess your father used to put you on the glass so you could kind of reach the flippers there and that caught you fixated into it. But once you started playing more competitively, your first big tournament win, in fact, actually your first ever win, was at 2004, the Papa B Division Finals. And some heavyweight players were there too. It's not just your regular B Division. Andy Rosa, Drew Sedolia, Brian Domini, and others. and you got that first win there. At that point, were you thinking, oh, this is easy, I can do this? Or what were you thinking back in 2004, first win?
    12:27
    Definitely not, this is easy. So much of I guess progressing and winning is about seeing what you capable of doing and you don know you can do it until you done it And so that was one step among many of hitting a high point to that point in my tournament career that kind of set the table and gave me the confidence and the awareness that, wow, I can take it to the next level.
    12:55
    Wow. Sorry, there goes one of those blue angels. So it gave me the confidence that I could take it to the new level, and then qualify for A the next year. Make the A final the year afterwards. Not easy. The final game was Terminator 3. All of us hit three supers and were a little over 200 million each, and I barely passed my opponents, and it was one of those scenarios where certain players needed to not do so well in the game, and I had to win to pull it off. And as you mentioned, really tough players. So it wasn't easy, but it taught me that, wow, if I can do this, what's the next step? And Papa 2006 was huge, being in the final with Lyman, Keith, and Donovan, getting to that final, going in the final game tied for first with Donovan and Lyman. When I got to that final and ended up taking fourth, I finally learned there that, wow, I can win a world championship, which had been a goal of mine in 2006 when that happened for already 12 years since my first world championship. And so it's never easy. The opponents make it hard. The games make it hard. And, of course, as a player, you know, it's such a mental game and your approach is critical. You can make it hard on yourself, you know, if you slow yourself down. But that was a huge win, winning a Space Jet trophy in Papa Bee 2004. It just kind of set the table for further successes to come. It's interesting. Twice now you've talked about the mental game, too. You talked about that comfort zone. You know, I feel safer when I don't have a ball cradled. And now you talk about the mental game after the Papa Bee 2004 championship and the success you had a couple years later making it to the Final Four in 2006. So we don't really talk a lot about the mental game. In fact, we watch you and Bowen do tutorials on more of the physical game, but maybe some tips on some of the mental game. It seems from what I'm hearing from you, a guy who's been top 25 for as long as I've been playing pinball, that the mental game is maybe where most people fail. It is so dangerous. There's so many ways to go wrong with pinball for a variety of reasons, and I think the reasons vary from person to person. You know, the number one thing, well, there are three things I always recommend when I give pinball classes at shows, is one, know the machine, the rules of the machine. Number two, know that specific machine you're playing, how to hit the shot on that attack from Mars versus the other one, how the ball kicks out of holes and comes off ramps. And number three, I always tell people, know yourself, know your style, know what you like, know your weaknesses, and what you need to work on and find what will work for you. Now, it's much easier said than done, and this is a very complex process that I've been working on for decades now in my competition. But some of the more specific things that have to do with mental state and things I tell people a lot at talks or friends, you know, before we get into tournaments, I say mentally try to be as comfortable as you can. A tournament, especially a big one, is not a good time to experiment with trying things that are new. Maybe you see another player do something successfully that you've never done. Once in a while, maybe it's the best thing you can do if that's the only way that you can catch up to that player score-wise, but generally staying within your comfort zone when something's on the line should help. I don't know how many people would be successful if they're playing out of their comfort zone. Although it helps them grow, I recommend that they do that more in smaller events. and when they're practicing. Another big piece of advice mentally is something my old baseball coach used to say. You know, bad things are going to happen. Never compound physical errors with further mental errors. You know, like if you make an errant throw in the baseball field or play a bad ball or make a mistake in a game you play and lose that game, you need to move on from that game immediately. The only thing you need to take away from that is what you learned from that mistake. But you can't be hard on yourself. If you've got another game to play, you need to focus on that next game. And I especially tell a lot of people who are new to Pinberg to do that, because you will have ups and downs through the long two, hopefully three days at Pinberg. And what you need to do is definitely keep moving forward, bounce back, take some learning from that mental side, either from a mental or physical mistake that you made, And, you know, put it in the memory bank, but do not let it affect you and bring you down. And I do encourage people to play their own styles. I don't know. Sometimes I don't. I met a young man in Germany a few years ago at a tournament, and he says he's emulating my style. And I told him, I said, yeah, it works great. It's super fun. But I did say I believe that in the long run, most people are going to get more consistent results playing with more control. I mean, it's just less volatile. Possibly less fun for those people who I know enjoy playing with a lot of flow and have had some success with it, like Sunshine Bond or Bob Matthews, Daniele.
    18:08
    He plays a real live game sometimes, even though he's willing to trap as well. But the mental side is so powerful, and there's so many things to consider. But the best thing is just knowing yourself, knowing where you slip up, and then finding a way to address it. Boy, I really like hearing that baseball analogy, first of all, too, about making the mental error. Physical errors are going to happen, but the mental error is, you know, did you risk a bad shot? We always talk about what is the safest shot. Keith Elwin always looks for what's the safest shot. I mean, yeah, there are some shots that are going to be more risky and obviously have more reward, but he ideally likes to take the safest shot. If I miss, where is it going to go? So that's maybe part of the mental game that we need as well, too. and you talk about when you miss a shot that can make players go ballistic or get frustrated in poker we call it that goes on tilt and they can't let it go they can't forget the mistake i just recently played in a match a game i had never played before in indie 500 i know it's sad that i've never played it but i never played it and i'm playing against trent and greg pavarelli and john delzoppo never played this game before and it's a playoff and i'm like okay i know how to really get some big points here. I've watched some tutorials. So I'm trying to hit the right orbit. And I think I tried two or three times. Bricked. Got on the other flipper. Okay, let's do what the left orbit does. Bricked, bricked, bricked. So I wasn't finding the shots. But for me, my mental zone is I try something three times in a row. If I miss it, I'm like, I'll come back later. I don't want to miss a fourth time. That'll set me off. And sadly, sometimes you don't have options where other places to go. But that's kind of my mental state is like, if I'm not hitting that shot, I know I'm going to get it eventually, but I'm just not finding it. It's one thing, I guess, if you're consistently early on a shot, you can make that adjustment. But if you're missing early, then missing late, then bricking, I mean, you're all over the place, I get away from it. That's a wise move. You're avoiding a lot of frustration that way and just leading yourself to a better way to score if you just can't nail those shots. You know, another thing, too, you mentioned is play your own game, too. And I remember a year ago being at the Bat City Open at Buffalo Billiards in Austin, Texas, and a guy you know very, very well, a great player in Brian O'Neill. We were playing in a playoff and we're playing Adams Family. And I think every other time I play Adams Family, I'll put the ball in the left flipper, shoot the chair, backhanded into the chair. Brian was so good that day. Brian, as soon as he got the ball on the right flipper, shooting the chair. The harder of the two shots, but making it every single time. So stupid me, come up after Brian, I'm like, oh, if he can do it, I can do it. Never did it once. Hit the right of the chair, out lane, typical Lawler, see you later. The lesson that day was what you just described. Play your own game. And that is so, so important. It is. It is. If you want to experiment, don't experiment in a major tournament against Brian O'Neill or Keith Allen. It's just not the time. They're rare instances where maybe you'll take a slight strategic deviation based on something you learned, or maybe some new code or an angle another player took that you could repeat a certain shot that you can hit safely. But generally, you've got to stay in your comfort zone. And the other danger is there's a famous golfer, I forgot who it was, he said if you spend too much time working on your weaknesses, it could weaken your strength and dilute them. And you definitely need to grow. and expand out as a player in directions that might be uncomfortable with you and take time. But you've got to be true to form as far as this feels good to me. This is me. I'm going to keep this going this way. Here are some really important changes I need to make as a player, and I'm going to make the effort to practice them and see if I can make them a part of my game and come naturally. I'm going to listen to this interview before my next major tournament, which I guess would be at Expo where you're going to be, and we'll talk to that again. because I just think of, again, that Cleveland pinball tournament I was at. I think I've played Ironman, what, easily 500 times in my life and probably 100 in competition. Do you know what I've never, ever done in Ironman? Ever, ever, ever. On the left flipper, I've never shot the left ramp. I've never backhanded it because I like the flow of it. I think I can get it from the right. I think I can get the right ramp from the left flipper. I watched a bunch of people do the backhand up the ramp. I thought, I'm going to try that now. Stupid me. Why, why, why? hey, listen to this interview before my next tournament. And I suggest that to other players as well. We talked about Expo. You're going to be going there. Looking forward to seeing you there at Pinball Expo in just a short time. And you're going to be going in that Power 100. We briefly talked about it. That is the best of the best. You must love this format. First of all, for those that don't know, it is the top 250 players, and it's their record against only the top 250. So the win-loss record, if you are in the top 100 of that, like Andre is, you are invited to this special event at Josh Sharp's house. That is going to be one of the greatest tournaments ever, and I'm glad Jack Danger is going to be streaming part of that. This is going to be something to see. And then there are older games and newer games, and you're going to see the best players in the world and some of the best players in pinball history going at it. So it's a thrilling idea. and it's at IFPA headquarters, which I believe means Josh's house. And so I'm excited to play there. I'm excited to just butt heads with all these great players. You know, and also a little fearful. I think it's a six-fair-strike tournament, meaning you could be out after playing three games and you're done with the Power 100. But, yeah, that's a unique event, and I always get excited about new formats. And in this case, this is one that's going to challenge me and everyone there just with the level of play. And I suspect Josh is not going to have especially the modern game set up too easily. Otherwise, we're going to be playing endless multi-balls and balls. So it's a very special event and just an honor to have qualified for it. And also another local player, Zach Woolens, will be there. So I'm excited to have a little companionship from the Bay Area to kind of go through this together because it sure will be a test. And I'm just thrilled to be involved with it. There'll be no ball saves, that's for sure, Josh. That's something you can count on, absolutely. Now, it's neat that you're going to this event because most of your play is in California and, of course, in Pennsylvania for Pinberg and Papa when it's on. But you really don't travel that much, or at least maybe not as much recently. And I know you're very modest, but I personally believe that if you traveled more and were able to make more tournaments, you'd be ranked even higher than you already are. Is that fair to say? Yeah, Jeff, you're absolutely right. I absolutely will travel for Papa and Pinberg no matter what. Most IFPA tournaments, including a few in Europe that I've done, I did skip the two that were in Sweden. and I think in Sweden it becomes a matter of vacation time available to me And I really have to decide through the course of the year what I want to prioritize beyond the obvious stuff that I do the local stuff the Papa When there is Papa I miss Papa. I'd definitely be there if there were Papa this year. So in the end, I do compete and travel minimally. There are a couple exceptions. 2014, I really wanted to get into that circuit final and I played extra events I normally would and when I say extra events I went to my first in-disc down in Southern California and my first and only trip to Portland for an event because they're circuit events and the ultimate result was you know built up my points and and I accomplished what I wanted to but what you're talking about too beyond hitting more events and getting more points I'd expect to get bigger points at bigger tournaments assuming I do well that year of 2014 was exceptional for me, and I think because I played sharper that year, because I was competing more in these heavy-duty tournaments with heavy-duty players. And so my game was at a heightened awareness level and a heightened skill level because these other players in big events I was playing brought my skill level up in a consistent way versus play local things for four months and then hit a big tournament, play local things for six months and then hit a big tournament. That's not too often, although I hit the biggest of the big tournaments. There are way more opportunities out there for me to play, and I really haven't taken advantage of them. I've only been to two IndyS ever, and I think everyone who knows pinball tournaments, and especially has been there, knows it's a phenomenal time, very competitive in a great place with great players and people running it. But I've only been twice, which is a real shame. And it's in your state now. Now, I realize there's a big difference between Northern California and Southern California, but it's right there. And, you know, you don't have to take the coast to get there. You can go a little faster if you want to get there. I hope to see you at Indisc again because that is a great tournament for sure. But let's talk about California pinball. There are so many other states that we commonly talk about. Stiff competition, Washington, Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York, Texas. But California, even without Keith Elwin there anymore, still a tough, tough state to win. and the local competitions are probably just as difficult. Yeah, and as a player, I've been lucky that way. First off, they're great players to compete and get better against, but also California, northern California, around the Bay Area, has become better and better as far as having games available to play. And so we're lucky that way. Also, when we have a larger mid-sized tournament, You know, especially the circuit events like California Extreme and City Champ in the Bay Area. These become national events, you know, even though they're held out here. But a lot of West Coasters, and I'm talking all the way from, you know, Vancouver, Canada, all the way to San Diego where Keith Allen was coming from, will come to these events as well. We're kind of, you know, in the center of the coast relatively. And there's so many great players along the coast as well. So I appreciate our scene, especially in Northern California. It's been built up over the last, I'm going to say, 10 years or so by various people putting on events, various locations just cropping up like Free Gold Watch in 2012. And then, I don't know, the interest builds and more people get into pinball, and then some of these people start getting really good all of a sudden. Or some people used to be good and used to play a lot and come back to the game after many years. And so it's such a hotbed. And if you look at some of the best competitors, some who are more established from Northern California, like Per Schwarzenberger, who runs the league, who started the league, the SFPD, San Francisco Pinball Department, as well as the City Champ Tournament, which is extraordinary. You know, he established himself a while back. Or Tim Hansen, who's phenomenal but doesn't get out to tournaments much because he's a family guy. And then just in the last couple of years, these men and women, many of whom play in the San Francisco Pinball Department League, are exceptional. Very competitive. They test me. They challenge me. So although I'm not playing in these national events, you know, I end up playing in a tournament or a league night. And, wow, I'm playing the number one woman in the world and, you know, two of the top 100 in the world. And this is just a regular old weeknight league night. So it's good competitively and location-wise. I'm having trouble keeping track of all the places that are opening up with machines. I haven't visited two or three places that have opened up of late that I really want to check out with many machines. So I'm really lucky to be in this area. It's quite an explosion. And, of course, when you talk about California, those Southern California folks are great, with some special locations and banning and some of the toughest players on the planet, But Jim Belzito, Johnny Modica, Carl D'Angelo come to mind first and foremost. There are so many great players there. You mentioned Free Gold Watch and City Champ. An event coming up in December sells out immediately. And unfortunately, because of the size limitations, they can't take as many as they certainly would like. I know I'd love to be there one day too. So that will happen someday. But I think of just California alone. I mean, Eka Schneider starting bells and chimes in Oakland there. Robin Lassonde, one of the world's greatest pinball players, one of the top female players almost every single year. She's right there, and you probably play a lot against Robin. So it's just incredible how many people in California alone really come out to pinball. And there are lots of locations, not just Free Gold Watch, but a place you need to tell me about because I've never been there. Tell me about the Pacific Pinball Museum. Oh, yeah. Well, everyone knows about Free Gold Watch. I know top-ranked national players and international players have come by. but the Pacific Pinball Museum is really exceptional. I first went there in 2006 and it was just the juju and it was just a couple rooms, one with the M's and then they just added one with solid states and still a great place, especially at the time since there wasn't a lot of location play for pinball with places with that many machines but this is in Alameda, California and all it's done in the last few years since I first went in 06 is expand and expand and expand. And basically, I don't know, keeps taking over different businesses nearby, you know, as they closed or, you know, went out of business or leases ran out. And so it's this massive place. It's dedicated to pinball in that it's a playable pinball museum. You can play just about any of the games, except for some of these old-timey ones that are more like baguettels, real historical ones. And they also push the science and the history and the art of pinball I went there once, and they have school groups come in, and they use them to learn about pinball and design and angles and geometry and a lot about science as well. And so it's a special place in a lot of ways for me and so many of us. What we appreciate best is the great number of games from all eras, very old and very new, and some really nice people who really keep the museum going. So it's a wonderful place. And, yeah, I hope they showcase it more often. Until 2012, they had the Pacific Pinball Expo. And that was a great event, but it was so much work for them to put on. And although it helped the museum and nonprofit, they basically gave all their energy to it. And I guess it just wasn't energy and time effective for them to run this wonderful expo with hundreds of games and super rare old stuff, like Mermaid, that you're not going to see just about anywhere else. So Pacific Pinball Museum in Alameda is definitely worth the visit as well as Freeville Watch if you're ever in the Bay Area, plus a ton of other places you can find on the pinball map. There are shows like Expo that comes up, Texas Pinball Festival, where they have people flock to come play these games, and the vendors really make it possible, and the people that are donating the games. But permanent fixtures, like you mentioned, at the Pacific Pinball Museum, like the Old Papa facility, those are so rare and so special and also something like replay and this year for you it had to be so so rewarding i know it didn't turn out the way you wanted to but again to be on the final stage final four with a chance to win it on the last game against keith elwynn who by the way you have two second places in majors and i don't need to tell you this both second to keith elwynn so it It was a chance for revenge this year, but, I mean, you have to just tip your cap when you saw what Keith did on Harlem Globetrotters. That being said, you know getting to play it after what he did, there's still a chance. You know, a great thing about pinball is you always have a chance until you lose that last ball. And in that game with Jim and Chris and Keith rolling over Harlem Globetrotters, I did have a chance on that last ball. I think the game played well in that the spinner turned well. Once all the drop targets are down, you could hit that spinner tons and tons of points at 2,000 a spin. Unfortunately, Keith was so far ahead of me. You know, what would it take? Maybe 10, 15 full shots to that loaded spinner with all the points on it to pass him. And honestly, I have rolled Harlem Cloak Trotters, but I don't think I've ever rolled one that did not have an extra ball active on it and that did not have the bonus carryover. And this Pinberg game was tougher than most location games in that way. So it was a great second place. If someone told me before Pinberg that I would take second to Keith, I would say, I'll accept that. The harder part now that I did take second there is knowing how close I was and a couple of instances, a few points here, a few points there on Star Pool and Pin Bot, I might have been in the running more. And so when you're that close, it hurts a little more than when you're far away from taking first. Have you talked to Josh Sharp about how to accept second place? He's a pro at it. Oh, man.
    35:36
    I don't know if I need to remind him of that after our F-14 Tomcat in 2011. I really feel for him because he's been knocking on the door so much for these major titles. And he did win the Papa Circuit final this past year, which is one of those very competitive tournaments. But still, everyone knows he can do it. And it's just a matter of when he finally breaks through. But it's so hard now. So many new players are getting into the game and getting excellent. And there's this older crop of players who have been playing since the 90s. in this newer crop of players that are young and sharp and are still getting better and better. I'd love to see him win one because he deserves it and he's worked so hard and he's benefited the game so much with his work with the IFPA. I was thinking a few years ago that there are some players out there who I feel that are better than I am and more consistent than I am who have not won that big title. And Josh was one of the players I had in mind when I was thinking of that. Yes, he's fine. He's a good player, and I'm sure he'll get his major once. And, yes, that was a big tournament that he won at the circuit final this year. Just not a major. Did he boost the points to 150% for that event recently, though, or was that an April Fool's Day thing? I don't think he did, and I don't think he is, because I asked him about that on a recent show. He is going to boost some of them. I can't remember which ones. You know what? In all honesty, if he boosted that one, it would make sense, because that's a pretty tough one to win. all those people that really had a year's worth of great totals to get to that event, the top 40. Well, it was top 39 in me. But anyway, he did very, very well. And yeah, I think he'll get a major soon. Maybe. I don't know.
    37:22
    Well, let's hope so. Well, coming second to Keith is certainly no problem. But did you ever think about crying foul? Because he was supposed to retire, really. I mean, he sounds like a Kiss reunion tour. You know, this is the final one, and then they come back for a full tour several times. He's like the who for crying out loud.
    37:39
    I wouldn mind if he retired insofar as it would probably allow me to place one spot higher in every tournament I play just about for the rest of my life But also I appreciate Keith and what he brings to the game and how exceptional he is and how people whether they be beginners or hardcore fans, can see that greatness. And for me, what he's done most for me is just challenge me. Although I've lost to him most times I've played him, he's made me a better player by just trying to beat him, going through that process, seeing what it might take to beat him, and then executing it, and sometimes it worked. Most of the times it didn't, and he came up with something better. I became a much better player, and I was fortunate all those years he was in California to have him as someone who made me a better player. And unfortunate in that, yeah, there are a couple world titles I guess I would have in addition to the top of 14 if Keith weren't in those tournaments. I've heard a lot of people say the same thing, too, but it is great to see him. And I wonder, because you are someone, we mentioned you and Bowen sometimes do tutorials at Pinberg, and they're a lot of fun, and you can see those videos, too. I know there's a few on YouTube. I wonder who teaches you. What do you learn from other people? I learn a lot by watching and observing and looking at techniques. One odd moment I had once watching Bowen's tutorial, I believe, on Family Guy. This wasn't part of the tutorial, but he did a save that I had never really imagined or seen or really taken in. And a ball coming towards the middle, but drifting more towards one of the flippers. And he only hit, I believe, the right flipper versus hitting both. And historically, up until that point, most of those cases, I would hit both flippers. And so that's an example of something that helped me a lot. It took me some time to ingrain it in my game to flip one flipper. If you can get away with it, you accomplish a couple things with it. One, it kind of deadens the ball, maybe fires it towards the in lane of the other flipper. And secondly, I guess when you flip with two flippers, you're firing the ball away chaotically forward. And when you do that more chaotically and harshly, it might come back at you more hard. So that would be an instance of watching someone and just learning from that move. You know, again, that wasn't the focus of the tutorial. Around here, especially, and also from watching streams of competitions in particular, I learn a lot of rules. There's so many discussions, especially when a new game comes out, or an older game, get the code update. And there's some really great people at getting familiar with the codes around me in the Bay Area in particular. Eric Wagonsonner and Gene X. they have been a couple of my biggest tutors on new games or even older games, like I guess the Jurassic Park sequel game. And they really analyze these games and break them down and pay attention to these details, and they have these brand-new games around to learn. And they spend that kind of time figuring things out and read posts. And so that's another way that I learn from people. So it's watching great players do great things, learning the rules, I think, from friends, and also watching players that aren't super players doing things well in ways I don't do them. You know, a week or two ago, I was just watching one of our league players hit some beautiful combos that I wasn't entirely... I don't know, I hadn't really seen angles like that on the new Deadpool game, and I learned from that, and it was exciting to see. And so from time to time, you know, even a beginner could show you something if you really pay attention. If I'm at home on my games, and you can pick whatever kind of style game, whether it's a newer or an older game, what should I be practicing? If you're at home practicing and wanting to improve, there are a lot of things you can do. You know, one person I think about as far as work ethic and training is Kaylee George. I heard that he might practice on games at home with two ball games. So he learns to do what he needs to in two balls rather than three. And so when he gets to the tournament and has three balls, it's kind of like a baseball batter swinging a baseball bat with a donut on it to make the bat heavier while he's in the on-deck circle. And then when he gets up to the plate, the bat feels light. And in Kaylee's case, I remember discussing that he'll practice one-handed. And this is good. Both these things can be good for older and newer games.
    42:20
    Being playing one-handed is finding out which shots are safer. Also, kind of finding out how to pass and be patient with the ball to get it on the flipper you want Or the flipper that your hand that is on the flipper is closest to There's so many skills and you definitely start where you're at I always recommend Pinball 101 as a video in all my talks I think it covers just about every skill that you would need to practice plus some ridiculous things that only Keith can do and a few other players like an eight-way combo on the shadow. But every single one of those skills I think is worth learning. The only trouble is it's one thing to learn them and practice them. I believe strongly when I give my classes, I always say this. Let's say you're trying a new maneuver like a live catch or a tap pass. You can learn it right away. Watch the video. Try it mechanically. Maybe you can accomplish it on the game that you're playing there. And your tap pass and your live catch is going to vary from game to game, so you'll need to make adjustments. But I think when you learn things, you choose whatever skills you want to work on, whatever strategies you want to work on, and you should practice them until they're ingrained in you and they come naturally. At this point, I don't say in my head when I'm doing a drop catch, I should do a drop catch here. It just happens instinctively because I've been drop catching for a long time. And I want players, especially when I teach them, to just keep practicing those skills until those things come naturally. Also setting up their games at home if they want to get better in more challenging ways so they don't play forever, although it could be satisfying. Because if they want to compete, they're going to be playing on games that are really hard to keep the ball and play on. You know, with older games, I think some really important skills are just finding a way to get the ball from one flipper to the other, whether it be dead bouncing or tap passing or post passing, or a particular shot that tends to feed the flipper you want to get the ball to. I think on some of those older games, there might be an imbalance. For example, on Valley Wizard, most of the time you're going to be shooting that left spinner. So you've got to find out, how do I get the ball onto that right flipper? And so older games, all those skills are great. Nudging, there are a lot of different ways to nudge and shake a machine to prevent drain. Or again, to get a ball from one flipper to the other. And I think nudging is something you need to practice on all era games. And maybe it's more helpful on some of those older games, because they are so drainy usually, compared to modern games that give you a little less space between the flippers and the outlanes usually. So I think it helps to be really intentional with whatever you're trying to do to improve as a player. You look at your focus. Are there mechanical things you want to work on? Are there physical things? And so if you've got some games at home or on location that you're practicing and learning, putting the attention to the things that are your weaknesses that are worth practicing on and just locking in on those for a matter of time. Again, until they come naturally are real important things to do as you want to improve as a player. That's a good point. You know, at home I have no problem practicing, or even in competition. Live catches, tap passes, alley passes, post pass. At home I practice drop catches, but that's not natural. So when I play in a competition, a drop catch for me isn't natural like you said, so I avoid it like the plague, which is stupid. I can think of so many times that would have saved me, but I don't do it in competition. What is that block for me? Maybe it's what you said, you know, I'm not comfortable, or it's not natural, or I know it's a weakness, so I avoid it. Why can't I do it? What am I doing wrong? I guess you'd have to see it, but what is it about me in that block, or anybody who has a block about, you know, I do it at home, can't do it here. For me, it's the drop catch. It's hard to say. I wouldn't say you're doing anything wrong. I would just think that mentally when you're competing versus at home, also when you're on games you're less familiar with, so many things don't come as easily as they do at home, especially on a game that you own at home that you're playing in a competition. Sometimes that can hurt you because although you know the rules, the game in the competition plays much differently than your own, and that can actually be a liability that you own that game. You've got this good self-awareness that this is difficult for you, And maybe this is something that you won't ever resolve. You know, we all have kind of like our blind spots in the strategies we take on, and mentally we have our pitfalls, and physically there are things we have trouble doing. I know a few people who just don't tap pass, even though I think it's fun and there are a lot of places it could be useful, but their comfort level just won't allow them to do it. Or a very beginner player feels so uncomfortable letting the ball bounce from one side to the other, they don't bounce pass. I mean, work as hard as you can on it. If you've got a skill you need to practice, at some point, just like me not being able to be a highly controlled player, you might just say, this is me, and I'm going to find another way to catch the ball or something else to do with that ball besides drop catch. Andre, I've always appreciated that you've been a guy who's helped others in the case of pinball players, but probably what gives you the most satisfaction is helping patients in the children's hospitals in California. Tell us about that. Yeah, well, that's my job. I work in a children's hospital in San Francisco. Nothing medical that I do. I'm a school teacher here. And, yeah, that is the most satisfying thing I do. And I love pit ball. And it's super satisfying. I love to win and get high scores and play. You know, at the end of the day, though, it is a game. Here at the hospital, there are a lot more serious things going on. And I'm a teacher. I've always been a teacher. And, you know, I enjoy working with kids here at the hospital, our schools for students, kindergarten through 12th grade. And it's really special and unique work as a teacher. One nice thing about it is it allows us to individualize what we do for each student because they come in to school, and also we work with them in their rooms, and they're all different ages, and each one needs something different, depending on who they are and what's going on at the time. Sometimes they're so sick that schoolwork's not even on the table. We might hang out and play an educational card game or something like that. But, yeah, I do appreciate young people. I like teaching them. And here at the hospital, they do a lot of special things for the students to help them adjust and kind of keep things normal, and that's a big part of our hospital school program. Our larger department, the Child Life Department, helps students in less specific ways, beyond the academics, just the hospitalizations. And a couple years ago, our department decided that they wanted to get one of those pinballs from Project Pinball in Florida. And we got a Star Trek Stern machine a couple years back. And I'm so pleased to see how much students like it here. I remember about a month after it came in, I asked the person who runs the room, I said, are they playing pinball? And she said, they're playing it all the time. And sometimes I walk by and I hear the clicking of the flippers. Don't spend too much time in there because they try to minimize the number of adults in these children's spaces, although I've given a couple lessons through the last couple years to some very worthwhile students. But that's another way, I guess, the pinball life and my teaching life have intersected. It's the connecting Project Pinball with our children's hospital here. And GeneX has also been a good supporter of the hospital kids running a 24-hour marathon last year. that was really successful and really exhausting for everyone. And also he helped get that Project Pinball machine here and then lent his own personal Ironman to the hospital for a month because our department's really cautious as far as bringing new things in. They want to make sure it plays well.