Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 56 - Alice, Avatar, X-Men, Expo LET'S GO

The Pinball Network·video·2h 4m·analyzed·Oct 11, 2024

Analysis

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TL;DR

Triple Drain discusses Alice reveal, Avatar, X-Men, and Expo with emphasis on playfield design concerns vs. visual appeal.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast Episode 56 features the hosts discussing recent pinball releases and the upcoming Expo. They analyze Dutch Pinball's Alice in Wonderland reveal, noting the game's striking custom sculpts and lighting but expressing concerns about playfield layout, randomness on the mini-playfield, and polarizing artwork. They also discuss Avatar and X-Men games, plus Expo preparation. The episode highlights tensions between collector appeal (visual design) and competitive playability concerns.

Key Claims

Keith Elwin spends significant time managing teams (art, code, sound direction) rather than just mechanical playfield design
high confidence · Joel cites Keith Elwin interview on Flippin' Out YouTube channel where Elwin explained the managerial aspect of game design beyond mechanical design
Alice in Wonderland's mini-playfield design has flawed randomness and lacks player control compared to Jaws upper playfield
high confidence · Travis and Joel both express concerns about the mini-playfield layout; Travis directly compares it unfavorably to Twilight Zone's condensed, controllable random elements
Melvin (Dutch Pinball team) took J-Pop's original foam core design and completed/finished unfinished elements
high confidence · Joel notes multiple areas where the original foam core design had ramps or elements that 'would just stop' with nothing there, requiring Melvin to finish or complete them
Alice in Wonderland artwork was originally all black and white line work by Zombie Yeti, then colored by another artist
high confidence · Joel cites Carrie Hardy's reveal stream with Canada where this art process was discussed; notes Zombie Yeti did initial art but it was black and white, another artist added color
Alice in Wonderland is polarizing: collectors love the custom sculpts and visual design; players critique the playfield layout and shot design
high confidence · Joel describes split community reaction: 'This is everything they've ever wanted' from collectors vs. 'This game looks terrible' from gameplay-focused players
Alice in Wonderland is a 500-unit limited release with a Cheshire Cat topper included
high confidence · Joel explicitly states 'It's a limited release—500 limited machines' and mentions the Cheshire Cat topper comes with every game
The sculpts on Alice in Wonderland may be compensating for playfield layout shortcomings by providing visual focal points
medium confidence · Joel speculates: 'I wonder if that's why the sculpts exist the way that they do, because it does cover up some of the shortcomings of the layout itself'

Notable Quotes

“What I'm saying is yes. And Keith is very quick to point out it's a team effort. It's a team effort. Like, he—Keith obviously relies heavily on, you know, his mechanical engineer Harrison Drake. He relies heavily on his coder Rick Nagel.”
Joel @ early in podcast — Establishes Keith Elwin's design philosophy as collaborative, rebutting the notion that one designer creates everything alone
“This game does not look like it's going to shoot well at all. Like, it just did not look like that was the aim for it.”
Travis @ Alice in Wonderland discussion — Core criticism of Alice's playfield design from a gameplay perspective
“I'm looking at this mini playfield. Going, 'Where are the flippers?' And then it's like, 'Oh, yeah, there's magnets in there. Okay.'”
Travis @ Alice in Wonderland mini-playfield analysis — Highlights confusion and skepticism about the mini-playfield's design and functionality
“Like, to me, it doesn't look like it's going to be a Barrel of Fun. But I know, I know Barrels of Fun didn't do the game. I was just throwing that out there. But it just feels like it, it just feels like a lot of randomness, right?”
Travis @ Alice mini-playfield critique — Expresses concern about excessive randomness in mini-playfield design
“I'm just a sucker for integration. I really like... I mean, you'll see just the light show changing. Um, what I will say is the Burning City light show is better than any individual light show on this Stern thing. But where I get stuck is when you're playing different modes, the lights change based on the mode you're in. I just love that immersive integration.”
Tom @ LED/lighting discussion — Articulates preference for integrated lighting systems that respond to game modes over static lighting effects
“I wonder if that's why the sculpts exist the way that they do, because it does cover up some of the shortcomings of the layout itself. Whereas if you did not have those sculpts, right, you don't have that focal point going on.”
Joel @ Alice in Wonderland wrap-up — Proposes theory that visual design compensates for underlying playfield design issues

Entities

Keith Elwinperson Alice in Wonderlandgame MelvinpersonJ-PoppersonZombie YetipersonCarrie HardypersonCanadian Colleague (Canada)person

Signals

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community_signal: Pinball Pulse launching as dedicated tournament-focused podcast addressing perceived gap in tournament coverage; expanding Triple Drain network content
high · Tom explains Pinball Pulse concept: 'I don't think there's enough talk about tournaments, so that's what... the idea... is just kind of get into that' with dedicated two-hour episodes
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sentiment_shift: Gender-diverse perspectives on Alice artwork: hosts acknowledge women in community have varying opinions on sexualized artwork; not universally criticized but recognized as divisive aesthetic choice
medium · Tom: 'I've talked to a lot of women in pinball that don't mind that sort of artwork, and I've talked to a lot of women that do mind that sort of artwork.'
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design_philosophy: Alice in Wonderland polarizing community: collectors love custom sculpts and visual design; gameplay-focused players criticize layout, shot design, and mini-playfield mechanics as poorly executed
high · Joel: 'some collectors that are, "This is everything they've ever wanted"... The other side of that is like, "This game looks terrible. This game does not shoot well."'
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design_philosophy: Keith Elwin design process includes extensive team management (art, code, sound) beyond mechanical playfield design; design role encompasses creative direction across all disciplines
high · Joel: 'they have to manage the whole team... art direction, code direction, sound direction, everything... a game designer... with a manager aspect... that I didn't realize'
?
design_philosophy: Significant playfield design quality debate: Alice's mini-playfield criticized for excessive randomness without player control, compared unfavorably to Jaws and Food Fighters upper playfields which offer specific, manageable objectives

Topics

Alice in Wonderland game design and revealprimaryPlayfield layout design philosophy and mechanicsprimaryMini-playfield design and randomness vs. controlprimaryPinball artwork and visual aesthetics (sexualization concerns)primaryLED lighting systems and integration in pinball machinessecondaryGame design team dynamics and managementsecondaryCollector vs. player perspectives on game designsecondaryPinball Expo preparation and expectationssecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.35)— Hosts appreciate Alice's visual design and custom sculpts but express significant concerns about playfield layout and gameplay mechanics. Tone is respectful but critical. Generally positive about community diversity but skeptical about whether Alice's design choices will lead to good gameplay. Balanced between acknowledging design difficulty and valid criticism of the final product.

Transcript

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[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast no we're not live but are you effing this up yes normally when we so some some professional podcasts actually enter you know they add their sound effects they add their stuff afterwards we're not that podcast so I hit the button we don't do that and then I have to edit and I but you know we're here we're here we're stting mic before it's fine what are we 55 episode 55 is that right it's crazy can you hear can you hear I can hear you pounding on your desk what is all right what do you why you're surprised by that fine just edit this part out let's just start over we're good I'm pretty sure if I hit my desk too you know it it's a shm smb7 it's not supposed to pick that [ __ ] up I don't been rocking my camera um Travis can you please if if people are watching this YouTube please comment about Travis's tan line please if you could just move that collar over another three in you can already see it peeking out it is so look at that look look at that my goodness it's like a ghost under here it's it's something man I'm ready for Florida it's fine I'm going to go to that pinball at the beach in February if it still exists that's true true I'm worried about uh I'm actually worried about what's coming up uh free play Florida I don't know how how bad Lakeland got hit so true well that's a Joel now all I can see is this tan line oh my God that's so bad click on the all right well thoughts and prayers for that tan line man dude I don't you don't even uh yeah Monica probably makes you wear a shirt to bed gez that's rough that is at least she can see when I'm in the room all that matters go there we go uh Tom you feeling good you ready to go I think so all right got your Mountain Dew Tom oh he does I see it let's go three guys like to talking ball so we came up with a CL our name we're Jo and Trav talking ball and we call ourselves triple drink triple drink triple drink we're triple trip we're here we're here okay we have just to heads up we have four four stops four plan stops on the bus ride today so four planed stops we're going to talk about um Alison Wonderland and the reveal stream we're going to talk about Avatar we're going to talk about X-Men and then we're going to go over Expo what to expect at pinball Expo um I say that and I just thought of one more thing um did you did you guys watch the interview that I did with Keith Ellen did you guys uh yes I I watched it in a plane back from the UK awesome thank you that awkward moment when you have to say no I haven't seen it yet thank oh I appreciate that Travis yeah um it was uh it was really cool once again talking to him um that's on the The Flipping Out YouTube channel we did like a deep dive on Jaws I've done this now with with Keith a few times where we really dive into um the game and man I learned so much from that interview um just because I he designs the entire game like he has his hands and thought into the entire game and the fact he is a pinball designer yes yes but that I do not feel that that title imagine being can you honestly say okay can you honestly say that there are people in this industry that have the title of pinball designer that design every aspect of the game I'm not answering that Joel is a loaded question this is such a trap right now I'm not it's a trap you hear that Jack danger if you're listening you did not design all of X-Men that's what Joel said that's what I'm saying that's not what I'm saying you hear that Brian Eddy stranger things you did not come up with all of that now I know what you're I know what you're saying I feel you you're you're talking about people bouncing off ideas and everything sure or or I mean I at the end of the day surely there's something on Keith's pen though that wasn't his original idea that maybe somebody I didn't say he's 100% resp responsible for every aspect of the game what I'm saying is yes and Keith is very quick to point out it's a team effort it's a team effort like he Keith obviously respond re re um reies heavily on you know his me mechanical engineer Harrison Drake he he relies heavily on his coder Rick Nagel like but what's really cool and where I've gained a lot of respect for Keith illn is just the amount of of mental capacity and thought process that he puts into every aspect of the game where where instead of just being like all right I'm going to trust the rule you know I'm going to trust the coders to make good rules I'm going to trust this to do that like I it was just I would just encourage people to go back and listen to it because um I don't I just I gained a lot of respect for him even more respect for him after that interview and um and one of the things he pointed out is I asked what what's something that a m the a game designer spends way more time doing than most people assume because I think most people assume a game designer is they're playing with foam or or or or CAD you know planning out ball pass and this and that but once you've done that once the once the play Field's designed what do they do at that point and that's where he mentioned they have to manage the whole team they have to manage the whole team and that's everything from art Direction code Direction sound Direction everything and and um I don't know I just I think game designer should be I don't know that there is a manager aspect of that that I that I didn't realize so so what you're saying it's a job it is definitely a job it is definitely a job and I bet there have been some amazing pinball designers as in they can design the mechanical side and the layout of a Playfield super well but I bet they are terrible managers and that's probably that's probably got to be rough that's gota I mean no yeah managing a team is is a challenge some people are really good at it some people aren't I say I didn't I don't even have a name in my head we're making an assumption there's there's somebody out there it's really horrible at their the name that popped into my head would be Jpop Jpop popped into my head I doubt that guy I see where this was going yeah look at this transition you like this you like yeah I doubt wait if if we're gonna plug stuff though we got to let Tom plug his podcast too we I had a great transition that's true that's true a great transition we'll wait till the Expo part no you slammed on the brakes you slammed on the brakes we kick it in reverse and we're backing up so right we're back in the golf and we're backing up got it let's plug that awesome awesome new podcast uh live stream that Tom is now doing it is um Travis is a part of it too point out this is Tom's thing right I'm like an in between co-host I love how we start out our main podcast by plugging our other podcast this is fantastic true yeah thanks for clicking on this thanks for clicking on this a show let me let's point you in other directions okay let's point you towards to the better content um so Tom on Twitch so Fox Cities pinball he's doing the pinball pulse is that right pinball pulse podcast show um where you are basically it's all tournament talk so all those people that just heard those words tournament talk and they oh yeah give me giveme giveme givme if you want more tournament talk boom it's 98% tournament where it's at yes um so Tom take it away okay plug it describe it tell us all the stuff so so Joel just told you it it's basically tournament talk so Travis and I are are we we dis we discuss tournaments that are going on uh my whole concept of it is I want to get people on to promote their events and also the players to talk about the events they they've gone to and just um extrapolate on that but we we just had Asher leov and Zack McCarthy on uh to talk about a lot of stuff UK open uh Expo and the sterm pro circuit event that's coming up so uh and then we also talked about the European pinball Championship so it's just a I don't think there's enough talk about tournaments so that's what you know the idea actually Travis and I had is just kind of get into that but um we we live cast it on Twitch and then it goes to YouTube yeah that way when we [ __ ] on games it's for a competitive reason right that way perfect all right now we can go back to the transition [ __ ] on games I could transition to a whole another you know should I go that way do you want me to go that way Travis nobody [ __ ] on it no that's the second part or now it's the fourth part so now we got to talk about your transition was we're back in the golf cart we're going forward it was Jpop right yeah yeah okay let's just start from there go check out pinball pulse check it out it's great all I was going to say with that is I've realized Joel says it's great I enjoyed it I listened to it for two hours and honestly eer can talk that guy he he's he's a talker but at the same time it was entertaining I was thoroughly entertained about hearing about all the different CH like I've just there's so much more thought when it comes to a tournament you don't just show up and get lucky like you are the amount of skill and planning and strategy and everything so I was honestly like captivated I really enjoyed listening to it and what I realized being a part of this podcast you know we've talked about tournaments but I've never never we've always in our notes we've always just put that towards the end and honestly we've never given it enough time that's I mean they talked two hours and could have talked more and so glad that there's now a better Avenue to really dive in right and to be fair it is a niche within a niche because obviously there's going to be more pinball players than pinball tournaments but I think even for people that don't play tournaments it's an interesting listen just because it's such a deep dive into very specific strategies and tactics that you can even pull into your own play at at your house or on location or whatever so I think there's a lot of value there just the same way I think there's value here when we talk about manufacturers we talk about yeah just the business side or just like how we view a game in general or we just shoot the [ __ ] like there's all kinds of ways to do it absolutely Okay so we've done all that we've plugged uh let's plug uh silver ball swag while we're at it check out our merch we sold uh we sold a shirt to somebody in Austria which is incredible it's so strange when I see the stuff come in and the fact that people around the world listen to this that's crazy to me um if you if you're watching this on YouTube and you're watching this outside the US please comment and tell us where you're watching because it's crazy to me that this is a global thing I know tra uh um Travis and Tom have had this but Tom you know he was just over uh over at UK open and like he's interacting with people from Europe that listen to this show which is crazy crazy to me so I appreciate so many people came up to me and from from you know Europe and was basically like hey I love love the podcast you know love your stream you know all that all that stuff and that's great to hear yeah it's it's humbling for sure CU we know like everybody out there listening regardless if you agree with us or not if you hate Joel or you don't hate Joel it's fine we all love Joel that's the Divide y but but you're basically you're giving us an opportunity and you're giving us your time too sure and obviously time is something that you can't get back so yeah no we do not take it for granted at all we talk about it all the time off the podcast too it's just it's crazy because I always say we're just three idiots with a microphone that's really what it boils down to except for Tom Tom's not an idiot so it's really two idiots and Tom be I've realized the three of us have we we have very different skill sets professional backgrounds collecting Habits Like I don't know we have a very I feel like we cover a lot of a lot of the hobby from many different angles and that makes it fun um okay so I think we're can I can I go can I we're on the golf cart we're going for on the golf cart we're moving forward we're so let's let's head let's let's hard right back into Jpop sucks as as a game designer right that's the that's what we were saying he he obviously couldn't manage a team yada Yad yada go okay here we go great transition let's talk about Alice and Wonderland um Alice and Wonderland the stream just happened and sure I don't I don't know J-pop I'm not trying to attack him personally but this is a game that um it is very polarizing it has been really interesting seeing and reading pinside reading the the YouTube comments on not only the reveal trailer but also Carrie Hardy did a great job um doing kind of a reveal stream with um I think the guy's name was Melvin um the game the main game designer of or I don't know I'd say designer he took jop's original design and finished it I guess would it be project manager like what would the title be I'm not even CLE I don't know what he calls himself I think he is I don't know I can't say for sure so well he definitely pointed out there were multiple areas of the cabinet where like in the foam core original design there would be a ramp or there' be something and it would just stop like there was nothing you know if you didn't see it from the top down there was nothing there like it so there was clearly things that he had to finish or complete um but anyways uh all that's come out it's very polarizing I think there are some collectors that are this is everything they've ever wanted in a pinball machine the sculpts are incredible there are I don't there's like almost no flat plastic in the game everywhere that there would normally be a flat plastic whether it's over the slings over any other area of the Playfield custom molded and painted sculpts um there's you know this custom little stopwatch with a screen the ches lot of crap to break the it's a Chesire Cat topper comes with every game it's a limited release 500 uh limited machines so from for the people that that really enjoy this hobby from a collector like maybe not so much maybe they don't play the games a ton maybe they they really don't care too much about code they just love collecting these beautiful pieces of equipment this is everything they've ever wanted um so some people are loving it and then the other side of that is like this game looks terrible this game does not shoot well the code what's in the code what shots are there what's the sound yada y y so I don't know if you two what were your immediate reactions or initial reactions to trailer or stream I mean we can go whatever Direction you want Travis I'll let you take this one um okay so which one are we talking about because this is be careful what you say right this is email goes to tripl drag gmail.com and you can start it to Travis or you know yeah he access to the email my feelings get hurt so easily yeah I don't have access to the email by the way so it just goes to the abyss it goes to Tom and I and we laugh so y so which one like which one do we want to discuss first one I mean there's so much to go through I so here's the thing I will caveat this with Pinball's hard yeah it's hard bringing stuff to Market it's incredibly tough and especially if you have a small team that makes it even more difficult so it it's super easy like I've worked within obviously what we're working with with funh house been part of a greater team with that so you know it's like anything else certain decisions get made that you can't necessarily be like your decision isn't part of that right you might have like outside advice opinion whatever but when I look at what Allison Wonderland is I know going forward with it for me personally I was curious to watch it just because I know what's behind it in terms of you know Jpop doing the design what the history is from there how a lot of the industry fills about that right there's just there's a huge scab still there right it's not a scar yet so naturally you're going to open up that wound anytime you do that we saw the same thing happen with RZA and that was already five years ago I think 2019 yeah and I still distinctly remember playing that game on at Houston Arcade Expo 2019 and that's when I had like 40 half ramps and I just like nothing really was working the way that I thought it should you know shooting wise but I know when I first saw aliceon Wonderland in terms of what the uh the foam core or whatever you want to call it that they showed and I even told you guys this I was just like this game does not look like it's going to shoot well at all like it just did not look like that was the aim for it now there's there's plenty of other J-pop games out there that I do enjoy playing I do enjoy shooting like World Cup soccer happens to be one you know circus voler happens to be another one and you know we we could go down the rabbit hole as to why those games are actually really good but I don't think we necessarily need to do that it's kind of one of those things if you know you know type thing so this doesn't surprise me seeing seeing how this is playing out with Alice and Wonderland currently and it's going every which direction right like even the art is super polarizing and it's not because it's like oh the art itself is just really bad it's like what is the art you know it's like um even Yeti do the art he did he did the inial he did all the original art that but it was all just black and white it was all basically what you saw in the foam core and and I watched the reveal stream with with Carrie Hardy and and and Canada was on it as well and and that came up and so what they had was basically black and white sketches and then they worked with another artist to flesh out all the color but they wanted to stick within the original you know design thing so yes the I think almost all of what you see was drawn by zombie but it was just black and white line work and then they had another artist finish it so why that was the direction I mean aliceon Wonderland can obviously be like a little kid story or it can you know people have gone really dark with it and made it more like adult and like gory or gruesome and so why we landed in this type of uh I don't know like young adult um kind of sexualized version I don't know but that's what was drawn and that's what Melvin kept going with and and I know he's proud of it he has no intention of changing the art um but that's what he picked yeah and I mean that's you know and that's perfectly fine it's an artistic Direction you know if if you're in I mean I imagine obviously I know that there's women that listen to this podcast they've came up to us before let us know and you know I I've talked to a lot of women in pinball that don't mind that sort of artwork and I've talked to a lot of women that do mind that sort of artwork and I've talked to a lot of men that don't mind that sort of artwork and I've talked to a few men that do mind that sort of art so it's like anything else it just depends how you look at it but that's the great thing about this industry if you don't like the art guess what you don't have to buy it like you don't have to look at it you don't have to do anything you know so me personally I just the Art's whatever to me you know like I'll play alvir at times up at the facility and obviously that's showing a little bit you know I got a jumping jack right over here in EM that they obviously show a little bit as well well so it's like yeah there's some stuff out there that's like that I think where it gets a little what's the word gratuitous I guess is the word I'm looking for is when people do the the custom back glass to where it's like a topless woman and stuff like that I'm like yeah I don't know I don't know if I want to feel like I'm in Las Vegas every single day staring at that you know it's just it's a weird thing but that's pinball I I know I mean I I know that's an art package that would not be very uh acceptable in in my basement I know like when I borrowed Elvira I had to put tape in certain places to cover areas for um for my wife's approval or for the kids approval and I I'm assuming people listen to you know probably heard me say that and just rolled their eyes and you know what that's fine I'm just I'm trying to be respectful for uh you know people's opinions that happen to live in this household but is that Joel doesn't want to sleep in his car that's basic yeah it's fine like it's perfectly fine to have a giant monster breathing fire right behind him that probably people itav I I fully understand though there's people have different opinions different I'm surprised my paragon's still here to be honest but oh yeah yeah I well I to the same side like I or same time I know if Zach let me borrow uh if if Zach let me borrow um The Texas Chainsaw Massacre like I know that would be a game that I would probably have to after I stream it like close the head and like put a blanket on it like there's no way like there it's just when you go with something graphic whether it's sexualized or gory it's going to be polarizing personally I think the art is very well done I think it's very well done it's just a style that some people are going to love or they're gonna immediately say no right that's just how it is I will tell you the most graphic thing I have in my basement is that tling okay the second most graphic thing I have in this basement right now is my laser Q if you know what the laser q b glass looks like it's literally half- necked muscle guys playing space pool yeah it's pretty great yeah it look so I mean Monica doesn't Monica doesn't complain about that she's like are you g to go like that for Halloween I'm like no I bet she doesn't yeah um no I get it I mean Art's one thing I think sculpts I mean I will say admittedly look like the game is beautiful it is an absolutely beautiful looking game they I think they did a great job like the sculpts they got leor mods involved in that and all of it looks incredible um so the light show I know they got um Davey with stumblr mods involved with the light show like the the the rails on the side um have lights embedded in them and those will change color um I mean they went all out it's a beautiful looking game um the other so how did you like that though because that's like when I was watching so those two things you just mentioned and Tom I'm sure you watch this as well the sculpts and the outside rails that's like the two things Monica my wife were those keeping track at home she was watching this with me that's what she she zeroed in on me I'm just looking at the layout and I'm just like this is going to shoot like a tur but but she's like all in on that and thinks like yeah it looks great that's really cool that they did the sculpts and my thought process was is well you can't see like the outside rail in terms of what it's doing so I'm curious to hear your guys opinions what you think because I'm more like I want the expression lights on the inside or the hot rails from jjp that's what I'd like to see cuz that's what I can see while I play and not necessarily be on the outside seeing something move back and forth but I guess I could see the value in it kind of like a Topper in a way that I guess that I think it's a cool effect I think it's a cool effect but I agree I'd rather see it inside the game than outside or both maybe but uh well you've already poo pooed uh speaker lights you know we had a whole argument about that oh and real quick this is a shout out these are turn that's right product you love them now that's right app apparently I've never spoke bad on an LCD or a speaker light ever on this podcast I am a total shill for stern and Toppers too I love those three things they are great I don't know how well it's going to show but these are the actual the the the the X-Men Le behind me these are the official Stern Le lights this is the stern Le kit that I have in Godzilla but um pin wolfer actually sent me he has a new light ring with a different diffuser so um which I I think is awesome so it you use the stern kit and then you just replace the light ring and the diffuser so I don't know how well it shows off but there's your comparison you see mine way in the back I can see right above your head yeah I have uh in in my Godzilla I have the Flames which I think you used to have Joel did you I did and a lot of people have asked me they're like if you had to pick right now do you prefer the Flames or do you prefer the actual Stern lights and I'm just a sucker for integration I really like I mean you'll see just the show the light show changing um what I will say is the burning City that light show is better than any individual light show on this Stern thing but where I get stuck is when you're playing different modes the lights change based on the mode you're in I just love that immersive integration so that's why the stern lights are staying but for people that are on the fence that already have the burning City or the burning ones I have I would not fault you for keeping it what do you want Travis well no so now that we're kind of on Stern products I'm just like bringing this back to Alice like does Alice in Wonderland what it does with the sculpts and with the outside like does that make it enough to get attention I think it no I was going to say I think it does at least like you know visual stuff in pinball is definitely a big thing so I I think it grabs your attention but like you were saying Travis like I just don't think this layout is that great but that's my opinion yeah I like I'm looking at this mini Playfield going where are the flippers and then it's like oh yeah there's there's magnets in there okay I mean I've played Twilight Zone before and there's magnets in that but there's only like one objective and the objective is to get the ball in the in the the back area so you can you can basically get out of there I'm trying to think like okay how am I going to aim for these Targets on the side how am I going to hit these balls that are that are captive and move that ball around with with magnets um I see they have the scoop on the or the yeah like a little scoop on the right and that's going to like that's going to probably catch the ball quite a bit and send it back but I to me I just don't get the mini Playfield like to me it doesn't look like it's going to be a barrel of fun but I know I know barrel of fun didn't do the game I was just throwing that out there but but it just feels like it it just feels like a lot of Randomness right when you look at it up there because it's not as condensed down as Twilight Zone so Twilight Zone it gives you that feeling of yes it's kind of random but you can kind of control it and you kind of feel like you're going to get it there and plus it's freaking awesome to do that whenever it's I nearly cuss there because this is how cool it is it's awesome when you're up there during a multiball as well in Twilight Zone so but again it's because it's condens down and I feel like looking at Alice and Wonderland it doesn't feel like you have any actual control right no that's exactly it like like some R Randomness is good but like to me like a whole mini Playfield of Randomness is like I don't know I just like cringe at it that exists after Jaws too like that's the thing we have the Jaws upper Playfield right that has very specific things that you can do we have the Foo Fighters one too I mean there's exactly there's just you said it you're saying it exists after Jaws we got to remember that that was designed a long time ago Jpop it to after I know was very clear that he was he was not going to change what Jpop designed that was what he designed because there was a question there why why weren't there flippers well that's not what he designed that was the original intent was let me finish I think that's a mistake because I mean look at look at Houdini I mean Jpop had a Houdini layout that they drastically changed at American pinball which I'm sure for the better uh but yeah I just I'm looking at this game there's one ramp uh you know there's there's a couple orbits just doesn't seem like there's much to shoot right and that's the crazy part is is it's still not completely clear I mean it kind of got clear towards the end like how to get up to the upper play field cuz it doesn't seem like you do it very often so you're compl two modes yeah and why that isn't the mini Playfield like the the grabbing feature of the game like I know yeah well that we could go that right well we're going every direction Joel and the bottom line is the bottom line is to to wrap this part of the game into a nice bow because we can talk about this for an hour and we probably should talk about it because it is the new game and you know it's going to be at Expo and everything but it's and that's it's kind of like I wonder if that's why the sculpts exist the way that they do because it does cover up some of the shortcomings of the layout itself whereas if you did not have those sculpts right you don't have that focal point going on but I will say the sculpts do look good that I do wish more games more often would do types of sculpts like that because it does kind of bring together the theme and it brings together the atmosphere that you're looking at right so I like that in general so I'm trying to find a positive in this as well you know because there there are parts of the game that's it's obvious that they did their job they did a great job in terms of trying to bring together a package now if we want to talk about call outs well okay my my feelings to what you're saying about sculps is it is very clear I mean even just um even Stern the difference between the premium and the Le is cosmetic the difference between well jjp's kind of veered a little bit but the difference between the Le and the CE is cosmetic so it's there are plenty of people plenty of collectors in this hobby that they want they want that game you know the code didn't change the layout the shots and layouts didn't change they just want that game to be the best it possibly can be with all the bells and whistles and then you add the mod Community into it the amount of mods that people get to swap out uh if sculpts or add toys or add little things there to can like the amount of stuff that I've added to my Godzilla to take it to the next level is is crazy um but I think I mean I totally agree with you I think this Alice game is is a when it comes to a cosmetic standpoint is a complete game I don't know what a modder is going to add to this game every every plastic there's it's just loaded it's loaded with sculpts if I we talked about Avatar the fact that the whole back left side which is the tree of life is all flat there's no tree there that's kind of a Miss I even look at X-Men like I think Jack got creative but behind the Cal head is supposed to be like this destructive building area but it's just flat Plastics like why that wasn't a sculpt kind of like in Ghostbusters how the citycape was actually a sculpt you know there's so you on and on and on about cosmetics and I mean so Alice Cosmetics yeah they guy sure I let's give let's give Alice let's say it's the most cosmetic game that's come out in 100 years okay how does it shoot true and big big Labowski did that well as as well too big Labowski is very stacked when it comes to so if that's what they're but it shoots well I mean it does shoot well okay so this is it's not terrible yeah I think a great thing about that sorry Joel like Tom Tom and I and you we're just vibing right now but it's it's like so okay my thing is too it's what what I'm curious about with pinball and this is like For Better or For Worse we see this with with nearly every single manufacturer that comes out I think pinball in general fully understands that it's the way that you present the game early on and that people are more accepting to wait on a code than they are to see a game that doesn't have the right art doesn't have the right features in terms of your sculpts your Plastics your mechs stuff that you cannot change later on obviously code you can go up and down and everything so I I think that because the consumer the retail consumer is willing to wait on the code and this has been proven time and time again happened with James Bond it's happened with Guardians of the Galaxy happening right now with X-Men Walking Dead X-Men yep and that's just the stern thing it's happened with people waiting on jjp games in terms of like wizard modes not being in the games yet like I don't think Godfather even has kissed the ring yet right I mean I don't I can be fact checked on that I have know I think it's not there but yeah it's just people have proven that they're willing to wait on that but if you don't get your art and just the look of the game right at the very beginning that's kind of where people just tune out right y yep and I so I think they did all that that's why I think people are prep like you mentioned the call outs the graphics the LCD art I don't have a complaint with that I think it's I I think the graphics look pretty good but yeah as in pinball enthusiasts we we are understanding that code can always change code can always change it can always improve so it's it was really interesting I mean the the revealed trailer was on Monday and this interview with um Canada and and Carrie was on Wednesday and so even in two days uh Melvin was saying yes we were going to change these call outs yes we're we've already removed this yes we we heard people complain about that they they mentioned which I think is interesting that they're going to leave certain um certain folders in the code which will be what will reference audio clips or Graphics they're going to leave some of those folders open so that you could change it yourself and and he was essentially saying like if you wanted to put in art from he didn't say it but like the aliceon Wonderland movies or put in music like you could do that so I know some people in the community hear that and they're all excited but at the same time it's like well now all of a sudden it's our responsibility to make the game what we want it to be you know instead of that so it's it's either way but I don't I'm not up I'm not upset about the I I'm not upset about the music I'm not upset about the call outs all that can change but what can't change is layout Jo when are you getting one to stream I don't think I will oh Zach is not a distributor Zach is not Zach with flipping out is not a distributor so I don't think I'm gonna have a chance to stream it I was I'm open to it apparently Zach had reached out to him to you know that was one thing about the stream that hurt as a streamer this was actually something we talked about last episode which was when me as a streamer Tom or Travis even with the content that you make like there's a there's there's a little responsibility you have is in like I want to make sure that I'm showing this game off in a in the best way possible or is realistic I want to give the viewer you know a good experience and and nothing against Carrie but them playing the game was it was a last minute decision it was kind of dropped on Carri last minute and so trying to get that from a techn technological stand point of these are people over over in Europe with cameras set up capturing that data somehow being pumped to Texas where Carrie is just to then put it together in a stream and have good audio good video no delay good lighting lighting is huge I have four lights on me right now like lighting is huge in streaming well let's let's get into this because yeah it's well let's start from the beginning like the way that we all discovered it was through what through Carrie Hardy like presenting it it and I think can presented it I guess they did like a dual like release thing whatever yeah I'm not sure if they had like two separate YouTube releases or what it was I just remember all of a sudden out of nowhere I texted you guys I'm like I think Carrie is live right now and I think they're actually showing the game now this is like 12 or 1 so in the afternoon I forget what it maybe even 11: but I just remember like it catching my eye and I'm like the trailer the trailer was yeah well the trailer and everything yeah so I'm like I guess they're doing it now and I had it in my head that this trailer was going to be something completely different than what came out so I was just completely confused by the trailer and I'm not like obviously it's difficult to do presenting pinball but it was like you didn't even see a ball hit a flipper till like a minute and six seconds minute and 5 Seconds in and it was just I didn't understand it I was so confused by it and I showed it to a few people that or outside of pinball and they had no idea what they were seeing at all so I don't know I I still don't know what that trailer was exactly one of the best comments I laughed out loud one of the best comments I've I've ever read on pinside was somebody said because people poo pooed the the current ERA of of pinball which is apparently code is the new Mech you know so it's like we don't do mechs anymore so codes are the new Mech so somebody the comment they wrote was well if code is the new Mech then apparently light show is the new code code because they were essentially saying with the Alice that it's all just light show I mean that's if if you look at the trailer what they were promoting for that first minute plus were the sculpts show the animations and the light show that's they're promoting an atmosphere that's what a lot of companies are trying to do right now promote an atmosphere and not necessarily promote a game that can play like there's a there's a vast difference in that there really is does anybody play Pinball anymore and without uh without I mean I don't know I'd have to look at Stern or jjp and look at their reveal trailers like what did they do better in our mind or like why aren't we poo pooing their trailers why aren't they like if that's I mean it's what are they showing WTH are they show can talk about that yeah what Stern does it obviously follows a formula because you look at it somebody yep somebody steps up to the game you see the plunge it tries to follow a certain mini story because that's that's what you're showing you're trying to show a mini story and it gives a little captions that says okay this is what's happening here this is a mode here something like that it shows the features jjp just says F all we're doing like a Hollywood production doing it and it does it looks awesome it looks fantastic you know it's that's pretty cool as well so it's it's interesting to see how different people do it I think just with this trailer in particular with Allison Wonderland and Tom and Joel you guys can correct me if I'm wrong I just felt like it was way too long over the place yeah it was 2 and a half minutes it wasn't coherent it waited way too long to get to the actual hook of what this game is right you just I think everything you need a hook so to me it's like if you're doing some type of trailer you've got there's a reason why if you guys look this is like the marketing hat on there's a reason why a lot of Hollywood films now choose to show the key parts of their trailer in the first 5 seconds it's literally an announce that you're about to watch a trailer because it's the tick tock crowd that you have your first three seconds to make that impression to keep them there and then to watch the full thing as opposed to starting off super slow and that's what you can't do and that's kind of what this did that was just super slow and just confusing at times you said you got to show what the pin is and maybe that's what they're showing maybe I mean I don't think they're selling Alice and Wonderland is this is the greatest shooting game ever this thing this game's going to Captivate you with with the the kinetic satis action that you've you know no they're promoting this game as look at this world underglass look at how much look at how beautiful this game is look at the atmosphere look at that and side comment and this pains me to say it but for all the haters out there that they're like Travis only poops on it because he's not selling it if he was if he was selling it he would be saying this game's so great you know that's all we got we got so much of that feedback from last episode and some of Travis's questions about Avatar like so hard on Avatar you they did not listen to the John Wick episode apparently which she crapped on what I what pains me to say is I I am actually gaining a little bit of respect about Travis's marketing thoughts and that's because this is what he does every day he works for a pinball company his job is to help sell pinball machines so the amount of time and thought that he puts into how do you grab how do you grab people how do you Captivate them how do you sell a product how do you how do you get their attention like this is what Travis does every day so I respect him a little bit for it just a little bit not saying you have to The Listener you don't have to until I do this then he loses the tan line the tan line or maybe he gets excited I don't know Joel I don't know I'm not going to judge you but that's I I think it's interesting I mean the fact that I understand that you look at a trailer with a much more critical eye than Tom orai Tom orai we're just ready to you know wow us let me why why have I not clicked away yet you know that kind of thing so well it's kind of it's it's segmenting out the audience too so like for instance Tom you probably don't need a trailer or anything to convince you to get a game like you you've been in pinball long enough to where you know what you like you know the themes you like and you know a layout that you're potentially going to like correct is that kind of the way you are yeah pretty much so yeah so that's one segment there right and in the other segment really if you're doing a trailer in general right you're trying to reach the people that are kind of on the fence to begin with because if they're already high intent and they're already sold it doesn't really matter what what you put out right you could have a game play to where you hit no shots at all and you take the glass off and you have to use your hand to hit the shots instead like that we're going to talk about in the few as a matter of fact but on the other hand it's like you know if you are kind of on the fence that's who you're really speaking to to begin with and then you're doing it you're doing a trailer because it's essentially Evergreen as long as your product is in cycle and it's being manufactured it stays relevant to that but at the same time you have to respect people's time time when you're putting it out you have to get to the goods you have to get to the value immediately because if you're not doing that somebody zones out they're going somewhere else that's just the way it is I just personally think the people that were on the fence I think a lot of these people are the collectors I think a lot of these people are the people where I want this beautiful loaded game limited this is the Jpop game that was never released this is a great theme aliceon Wonderland Z early zombie Yeti art like they're hearing all the key wordss of thinking like I want this beautiful piece of art in my basement and you're saying it's pure retail customers too that's an important differentiation to make the location right your B2B customer is a lot different than your b2c customer type right because you're not selling to a location you're selling to an individual that wants to put the game in their home retail is totally different totally different so I think in that regards I think the trailer did a decent job it really showed it wack owed the collector as in like look at this beautiful piece of art I don't because I don't know if the collectors you don't agree Travis cuz I don't think collectors care about code or shots well most some you're by that sorry here's the thing yes well no they don't let's face facts I I will be honest because we sell to a lot of collectors right everybody has a different reason for why they like games and for why they collect okay like Tom what's the primary reason why you collect games when what's your reason so I can destroy Usher left cough and a tournament on him there you go oh wait that's rough it's cuz his I think it's cuz his wife loves his colle she's like I love that collection but why do you buy let's start from there well mainly to have fun and practice on them and I mean that's that's the big thing but uh you know there there's multiple reasons uh you know as a collector some of it's value uh some of it is cosmetic you know but but mainly I like certain layouts and I like the way they shoot and you know that's yeah that's perfect spoiler alert Tom you're buying an X-Men Pro why because cuz I don't like the Le yeah but you you said you want to buy cuz you w to you wanna you want to learn the game I want to learn it practice it that's that's the main reason that is a perfect example right there because there's so many collectors too I've seen it time and time again that this particular Le is going to some beach house over on the east coast or over on the west coast and you see their game room and it is like fantastically amazing but you know the game is going to sit there and maybe get 50 plays over the next three or four years because it's a total centerpiece art piece for people I mean people buy the games for different reasons so and that's fine right and that's perfectly fine yeah as long as you're enjoying pinball the way you want to enjoy it do it like if you enjoy pinball just shooting shots cool if you enjoy pinball by just seeing lights go off cool if you enjoy pinball because you like modded it out cool like do it any way that you want if you do it for streaming whatever but what I'm getting at is is with Alice and Wonderland and I hope like they kept saying that they sold out I hope that's completely true I mean I saw it on some dealers websites it appeared it was still there so I don't know if getting a sell in confused with a sell out but either way it's like there may not be product out there right so it's it's very difficult but that being said if I'm taking a game that I know is just exclusively for the retail customer then I want to emphasize what the retail customer likes right and you're going to do that you don't need two and a half minutes to do that you need 30 45 seconds max if you're going to show artwork you're going to show sculpts you're going to show lights you're showing nothing else but that because you're not even worried about gameplay right you can just present that and say okay gameplay reveal at this time and then you have it all controlled right it could be two separate things why do we have to put all of it together we don't necessarily have to if that's not our intention to show off if your intention is to show off just the bells and whistles just do that that's perfectly fine and I think that's perfectly acceptable and guess what the people that want to see gameplay they're yeah they'll be in the comments saying where's the game play but they'll also be first in line to watch the game play y exactly right I think that okay that's fair and I think Wednesday was a surprise I think it was initially just supposed to be an interview ask questions talk and then it kind of became a gameplay reveal and um unfortunately that was you know we talked about it last week in in or last episode that you know I feel like there's always pressure with these gameplay reveals especially from a sales standpoint you want you want the gameplay reveal to sell games like oh wow look how great that is I want now I'm interested first impressions are everything uhhuh vers gameplay reveals that it's like o they they are bricking a lot of shots the game is yeah well what did I tell you guys like off the podcast off stream I said I hope they do not show gameplay on this for their sake like do not show it just because you could tell what was going to happen you could tell based off how the trailer was put together you could tell based on how the layout is because if they they had those Prime shots if they had it all down it would have all been presented already and it wasn't and you do have that pressure and when you add pressure yeah when you add pressure on to a hard layout yeah that's not very shootable not very yeah it's yeah but you've said that you've said that with more than just like you've said that with other manufacturers like we had this whole conversation about American pinball spooky Xmen Le reveal stream did was not good it was not it did not help sell the product well that game is very dependent and we'll get around to this that game is very dependent I guarantee on how it's set up I guarantee it yeah you cannot have horizontal shots shots that go behind the flippers you can't have that the same thing happened with Foo Fighters like some people saying that the uh the overdrive met right that that bounces back didn't come up a lot of these things it's based on setup and that's user dependent right and even then you're going to have some variation on is a guide rail or how does how these flippers pitched is the coils working properly I mean I have an Iron Maiden right there love that game out of box the plunge was just broken it was just going straight into a post the whole time so I had to have Carrie Wing come over and help me with the the guide rail just to adjust it back a little bit to help it go around that Loop so yeah this isn't just like anybody but Stern this like this happens to everybody but well let's the reality is if the game was sold out though Joel and we can get into this here's my thing thing if it's sold out that's you've already made the sale that's when in sales you just we've had we've talked about this a lot with spooky because spooky does a reveal in the last however many games they've had they've essentially sold out within a day so then it's just like and then people are like wins the game play wins the game play wins the game play and honestly from a business standpoint there's no reason there's no they're already all sold just going to lose Sals I would tell them the game play is going to be when you unbox it and you play it yeah because it's just so difficult like I get it if you still have units to sell that's when you show the gameplay I know there know people there going nuts you want the game play because you want to make sure you're making a good purchase you want to justify your purchase yes from a business standpoint it's sold you've already made the sale yeah what's somebody going to do like put down a deposit right and say well because I didn't see the game play I'm just going to back out they might but guess what if the game's that popular there'll be 10 other people ready to like take up that spot there's already people weight anyways like why why show it I have definitely and I understand I'm in a unique situation with being able to borrow games um from Zack but like I've been in the I've totally changed my mentality of like I'm gonna buy a game way after it's revealed like I want to I want to experience it and then let it settle in my my head of like do I miss it do I want it back do I want that and I the patience of like you know what I and we talked about this before the Ln effect of like new games comes out you know what I've I've controlled myself I'm not going to buy this I'm finally going to pull the trigger on that that's been out a year you know something like that so I at the end of the day I hope pinball collectors continue to collect and buy games but it's it's just there's so many different people in this hobby some people are ready to bite on everything brand new and fresh they don't want to miss out fomo is real while other people are like yeah I just bought Jurassic Park I know it's been out for years but like I'm finally at that point where I know I want to have this in my house and I I I kind of wonder if if it's also some of the people that are like you know what I'm just going to wait till the code matures because a lot of these new titles that are coming out and and we're seeing it we're seeing it with John Wick we're seeing it with X-Men kind of seeing it with Avatar too you know the the code isn't complete well let's let's transition that's a great transition there before we do Joel that's the unique Dynamic though that we're talking about right now is that the fact that a game can come out and it can be the same MSRP as a game that's already been completed manufactured it's it's at its full extent it's one Game of the Year Awards and all that we're in that spot and then at the same time we're in the spot to where if you are coming out with a very limited product that's 300 400 500 units right you're bringing it out to Market to where there is consider competition constantly being manufactured so it's it's almost like like I said if you make the sell from there just make the sale complete the sale don't worry about anything else up to that point because anything you do afterwards all it's going to serve is is just driving down cells driving down hype because You' if you've already sold through right like you're not going to make any more money off of it at that point it's just not going to happen all you're going to do is make money for the people that want to flip the game if if it's in that situation so yeah so you got to be careful of that that's just the reality and I know that there's people out there probably screaming at us right now or at least me like I got to see the gameplay because and I get it hey leave a comment leave a comment on YouTube send us an email yeah and that's that's fine I'm just talking from a pure standpoint that if I was part of a company that had 300 games I would be like you know what we're going to focus on selling this out and if it's already sold out before I'm like I'm more apt not to show the gameplay until it's like it because it's almost like imagine a console game right it sells out for whatever reason then you just show a full playthrough of the game before they even get shipped oh wow and then people see it and then they're like H that wasn't what I expected so yeah and we're doing this with we're doing this with premium products that are 7 to 12,000 right sometimes even 15 and that's kind of like that's the weird part though I get it if somebody needs to see the gameplay before buying but that's also why fomo exists it's like you're jumping into the pool you're going but that's what makes Stern work because they have Pros they have premiums you're going to be able to get it at some point let's let's wrap up Alice and what I'm saying is I we actually have opinions on the layout but we're all going to be at Expo so we're going to have an opportunity to play it so we will on our next episode we will report back what our actual experience is of playing Alice in Wonderland in the layout and Travis and I are going to kick Joel's ass on I'm coming back for Joel I want to give the benefit of the this is the Revenge year Joel cuz I beat in The Labyrinth one year that's what we're I want to give the benefit of the doubt to this game though but honestly looking at the layout the code is going to have to pull this game in the way the rules are to the Finish Line you cannot take forever to get to the upper play field I think everything needs to be accessible and as close to that start button as possible because this layout is going to eat people alive like I think I think it's going to be difficult layout to play all right Tom you want to talk about X-Men or Avatar next uh let's go X-men X-men all right so I have an X-Men Le I've played the heck out of it I've streamed it twice Tom has played X-Men at Lumberjack Johnny's is that right that is correct Travis you have not touched an X-Men right I've touched an Le box once oh about that cardboard all right so we'll start with Tom then Tom initial Impressions after playing and you streamed you streamed it right you streamed X-Men or you just played it no just played it well technically I guess we did stream it for a tournament yeah you weren't like diving into no okay so initial Impressions they did release it was Tuesday they Monday or Tuesday they released 084 code where they changed some stuff up have you played it since the new code was out yeah yeah okay tell your thought so initial initial Impressions I didn't like it like right off the bat um and I I think it had to do with just one kind of barebones code to um you know just getting a feel for the game it's so different than anything else that's been out I mean and it really it really is and and three I just don't like some of the AL features on the game and that's just me like I don't I don't like when I hit a shot on the right ramp and the wireform breaks and I lose my ball yeah like to me that's like super frustrating it's like I hit a shot I made a shot and now it's gone like why are you doing this to me and I I I kind of blame Joel I don't blame anybody else okay that's fine yep uh no but but then I I played it Wednesday night and and actually we we have a we have a discussion with Carl so yeah Carl had played the game and gave his thoughts I'm not going to share what Carl's thoughts were but he he had brought some things to to are my attention as and basically I looked at some shots different and I'm like okay now I understand like how to hit some of these shots and you know my scores went up so I I'm I'm feeling better about the game than I did like a week ago so um so he's buying one I'm getting a pro yeah but you went from potentially in on an Le to you're out entirely to I'm not buying the game I was always in on the pro I was never in on the LA gotcha but you pulled you were in and then you're out and now you're back in correct nice um yeah I I have um so since we last recorded I have the the X-Men Le here um I have I have full intentions of getting a game either at the end of the year or early next year but to add a game to my collection and right now the the the the P pin is Jaws premium that's right there that's what I want to buy that's the pin so that's what has to we got to beat it that we got to beat a Jaws premium for me to buy something besides the Jaws premium uh my initial first my first game of X-Men was over in like 30 seconds it was it was brutally bad um Jared's first game terrible my buddy Ryan who's a good player who came over his first game horrifically bad so the the the the first impression of the game is like I just missed everything like the ball it's gone so fast um yeah I had the same impression good okay I'm not so um if if you're on location I mean I could see how people put in you know a dollar and they're like screw that game and move on to the next one with that said I kept playing and I I genuinely love the way it shoots I love the way it shoots there the kinetic satisfaction is fantastic I really really like just playing the game this is a game I said on stream the other night sometimes Zach lets me borrow games and I'll stream it for two hours and then I don't touch it for three days this is a game like every day I'm coming down here just to play one or two games just because I love the way it shoots I really enjoy just it's fun it's just fun seeing the ball whiz around some very creative shots um with all that said if if somebody said Joel are you gonna buy X-Men if I was gonna buy an X-Men today I'd buy a pro and that's just because of exactly what Tom said the the ramp there's a hand The Sentinel hand will destroy the ramp and you got to pay attention you can save it you can get lucky but if you're if you lose focus for a second if you feel if you hit a shot that you're so used to these shots being safe returns to the flipper if you if you relax just that tiny bit and you're not ready to nudge or prepare to save that ball it's gone so maybe it's my fault maybe it's Tom's fault maybe we're not paying enough attention maybe they'll add something like uh you know on TNA the the scoop is so brutal the eject that there's a tiny little ball save so it knows if it just dumped the ball like if there's a tiny little ball save where it's clear it just dumped the ball and you can't save it maybe they'll they'll give you a grace period something like that that would be great as of right now it's very even the left side where like that finger is and it throws your ball I've lost balls from that too I have had issues with the finger it worked well and then since the latest update it has not worked well um so there's tweaking here and there's one other mechanical issue which is the plunge the plunge is not working great and here's the problem and I Know Travis is probably going to say this um which I 100% agree with this game is is definitely it has to be set up right because there's so many things on it like I'll give an example Lumberjack johny's game so initially when it was out the the shooter the ball would not go go around yep and that was like super frustrating cuz one you lose your skill shot two the ball comes down and basically it's out of control and the way the flippers are aligned you don't have much of a chance to save it so um the other thing is the like the figure eight shot like I've hit that shot so many times to where I would say like 10 10% of the time it goes around otherwise it like gets hung up on the ramp and talking about all the way around right all the way around yeah like it'll make the shot but then it won't enter in the other ramp to go through the wire to feed your flipper yeah which is the highway ramp right that talking about the side ramp yeah okay and that is like you know it it's like it's just frustrating I guess so it's like I know I made the shot and it's not doing the thing it should so but I think that may be a leveling issue so I but I I haven't had that issue at all my my figure eight area in the back I thought that would be a brutally hard shot like even um you know with the katana ramp on Deadpool there was a lot of people that you know how do I reliably get that to work and there's tweaking or you know make sure your playfields wax all that stuff I was expecting that figure eight back there to be no I honestly on mine it's it's con very consistent it's very consistent and a shout out to Matt mccardy we we were talking about it and you know he he mentioned that he was like you know the katana ramp on Deadpool you you hit that shot you don't always make it I said that that's fair yep but so but the plunge is the one thing The Plunge in my and that's what if you if you look at the the owner's Club the plunge is a problem and and it was even like the shooter coming out of there like you saw that on the gameplay reveal too I think very first plunge didn't even make it if I remember right and I remember texting you guys being like oh [ __ ] you could just tell like something up with it what's happening initially people think oh it's just not powerful enough put in a bigger spring I actually took it out stretched the spring put it back in my most consistent shots are probably like a 60% power 70% power so what's happening is when there's too much power there must be something getting Airborne I mean it's a big path and then it rattles when it lands so there's going to be some dialing in which brings up a random question which is somebody said for this plunge there's zero reason to to short plunge if you short plunge too like the the the shooter Lane is the out lane if you short plunge you just drain the ball if you short plunge about halfway up it's an uncontrollable ball I don't know why a tournament player would want a short plunge you want a full plunge every time you want a full plunge every time so my question is why would Stern not remove the plunger and put in a button like um like Medieval Madness like Monster Bash like why would they not just make it an autop plunge game every time I think that's just not part of their their framework I don't remember the last time they've ever done something like that but for this game have they ever I can't think off the top of my head just just like the the the gun games I can think of like T3 maybe right right yeah but I could see somebody modding this game to make a make a cool button remove the shooter Rod put a button in there and then that way as an owner all you're worried about is dialing in the auto plunge if you can dial that in because some I've seen that with some of the collectors that the auto plunge they've got to work uh 90% of the time but the manual plunge is still hit or miss or the other way around it's kind of one of those things from all the videos I've watched on it so far it's like if it does make it the plunge it just kind of like it just barely makes it it's a slow shot right and even if you try to make it scream like you said then it gets hung up on something back there and it still won't make it anyway so The Lumberjack game like now 95% of the time it makes it around which oh well that's good I don't know isber I I didn't I just I just mentioned it to Dave and like what did he do to fix it do you know I don't know I have to ask him well what's weird is on to have I'm sure there's a lot of owners out there like I I want to know this there are um there are people on the owner Forum on pinside that they got it all dialed in and then the code update messed with it like it's weird it's like the code update all it did is they it defaulted the the the the autop plunge coil strength to 255 it defaulted it at Max but even even then when they go in and lower it back down to the old default it's not working so it's I don't know if they I don't know I don't know they did but I would you know I trust that Stern this is something they'll figure out absolute worst case somebody will figure out you know like even Godzilla had some weird uh plunge issues where there were aftermarket mods to you know so it wouldn't surprise me if somebody figures out oh yeah add this three printed part here or this rail and it makes it more consistent wait and see we'll see on that but mechanical issues aside I'm loving the way this game shoots it is awesome Cod though code has a long ways to go and and what I mean by that is um initially when the code released you would play there was four modes available once you beat two you could go to the Future and then when you come back there would be four new modes available as of right now when you hit uh you had a white shot and then a blue shot you're in a mode all eight modes are available white shot there you go yes and blue shot got it um so but the thing is there's nothing there's nothing to do like once you've played all eight modes you can go to the future but there's nothing once you're in the future there's no reason to be in the future the future dangerous let's talk about the future it's Bleak that's that's on theme nothing to do there right that cuz you're dead there's nothing to do there anything to do yet there's also nothing you can see there because all the lights are blue the GI is completely blue really I I do not like that is that on the new code or was that always there I need to watch more video there are red white and blue GI bulbs all throughout the game one thing I do like is when you when you tilt the game not tilt but like when you nudge and you get a danger all the red on the Playfield freaks out it's actually a really cool effect the that would be like my only thing like put some more white in there like with the I think that would that should be an easy setting that they would allow like future GI and the option is either blue or blue and white so then I guess I guess let me ask you guys this then it does it feel like as of right now that there's enough is there enough of a difference between being in the present to being in the future to where you're like yeah I want to go to the Future no there's no reason I do not want to go to the Future and and what I mean is you have the ability to control with the action button whether you stay in the future or you return to the Past right now there's zero reason to stay in the future I would assume they will build something in there whether or not there's like you have to defeat X number of Sentinels to get this or maybe you can bring characters into the future or maybe this like there needs to be some reason where I want to stay in the future right now there isn't there's no reason to stay in the future so it is literally you get into the future you hit your button so it says return to the Past you hit a cerebro shot and you're out like and then you're back you're back to you're just like Deuces I'm out of here yeah there's no reason to be in the future much future sucks I mean and it does in the storyline I guess but sure but they they they've got to develop something there's got to be a reason to want to to stay in the future long going to ask you guys I still don't know much about this code at all because it's just limited on what I've seen so I mean is there just basing it off how the comic books were are you trying to save people from the past to pull them into the future to be like your ally or something like that I think on the LCD there's character on the side every mode is related to a character so once you beat a mode it's clear that you've gained that character okay but that's it there's no there's no additional perk as of right now there's no it's not like I see that character now in the future I would assume there will be something there where there will probably be a strategy of like oh I want to play Juggernaut first because then I have Professor X and then I want to play this and then that way I get Magneto and if I have those two they give me these perks so that that makes this mode you know there I would definitely early so and then the other aspect is the danger room I really like the danger room I think the danger room is a ton of fun I think it's a very unique thing it's it shoots well like I like the way it shoots but they've they've toted that this danger room is going to be a it's a training room so it it will make you stronger so it's supposed to give you more perks whether it's bonus X Playfield mod I don't know as far as I can tell it's not giving me anything right now so there's no reason to get in there there's no cues saying at least in my eyes that oh I'm getting some value out of being in here true usually I get in there I'm like get the hell out of here yeah out y okay so I guess then the proper question to ask you two because we've talked about this a lot in the past M does it feel like the first five or 10 minutes of the game is there like does that feel complete at all possibly I mean cuz you're just you're just trying to get into modes Asen do you feel like you have a complete Game based off the 10 minutes like the first 10 minutes no because you can do stuff like you can hit the Beast the Beast Labs area a bunch and I don't really see what it's giving me the danger room like you could so you have access to these areas that are very clearly not fully fleshed out the the I think the Beast one with the newer code it's it's more fleshed out it is there's more I just don't like that's a whole area though because it's a very Target I'm very curious to play the pro which is just going to be a static one target that's a leaper Target like okay I don't see the value necessarily just for our listeners you guys are talking about the mech that's to the left of the Sentinel head correct right correct so on the pro like you said it's the just the leaper Target type thing and on a premium Le it's Target multi or it's like a newon kinetic ball up top rights okay it's cool um I I it's just what I'm not I'm just not experiencing the code benefit of like you know on a pro I'm assuming I hit the target it's either you hit it or you don't on this it's a very Target it's like is there a is there value in hitting it harder versus just grazing it that's the whole very Target Newton ball thing um so as I mean honestly right now you know if I stream this game for two hours it's really just let me work let me just chip away at these eight modes and what I like is there's a perfect way to achieve each mode some of the modes it's not very clear what that is I don't even know if it's coded in yet but I've just been achievement hunting like just beating the mode beating the mode first try beating the mode perfectly that's what I'm focusing on there are three multiballs currently in the game um you can start all three all none of them really tell you very well how close you are to starting them like um I've always been surprised when I'm when save the city is lit it's like I had no idea I was close to starting that or so there's no indication of progress on the LCD or on the play or anything sure I've seen save the city to be honest well I have um apparently you have to hit all the city shots enough like all the different main shots and then it's lit in the middle there's a save the city insert that'll Flash and then the middle shot will flash yellow if you hit that it's going to start your multiball but you have no no idea how you're progress but when you're saying City shots again just to be clear for the listeners you're talking about like each specific major shot is considered a city shot you have down up downtown it Subway something like that another one there's five of them right Uptown Midtown downtown Subway Highway yep so you have to hit those on the rule card it basically says hit those evenly and then but it's like I've sat even with the glass off like I've thrown the B says those even let me me no way it says that no way actually get the roll card out Joel let's go over this Tom no way it says that hit these evenly where the heck is it now I need to bring up the play I'm going to bring up the Playfield no it just says it just it just says shoot City shots to explore the city MH and start save the city multiball that's all it expore the just says explore so big and that's that's my issue with that and even the Sentinel I understand with the Sentinel on an Le you bash it enough that it pops up then you bash it enough that it'll drop its jaw and then you bash it enough to start multiball um that's another reason why I kind of like the pro there is no real difference besides visual of it being up or down like it's not it's not like it's a diverter it's not like it now is in the way and it wasn't in the way it doesn't change the shots so that's why once again I think like I'm I'm all I'm like pro pro like I think the pro is a good Buy in this in this game because the the layouts the same the shots are the same you get all the great parts of the game for cheaper that's why I'm leaning towards Pro but hey if you're an LA buyer or you're all in on X-Men I think you'll love your La I think the game's absolutely beautiful yeah I think the the only thing when I first saw it I I preferred the pro version of it more and it was strictly because of the hands on the wire for the danger I'm yeah I'm just not a big fan of hitting a shot like Tom said earlier I'm just not a big fan at all at completing a shot and then being punished for it you can disable it and I probably would but then it's like okay so I'm so I'm paying extra money for a feature that I'm not going to use you know that's kind of one of those things like I get it like a lot of people like that type of Randomness which is totally cool it's just for me when I'm in the flow of things it's like seeing a ball just get plopped down on the Playfield I'm just like h i it's not a plop it's it's it just it's ripping right towards your flippers even tournament Players don't like losing their ball no not at all even Godzilla I didn't like it on Godzilla the only saving grace for that is it starts it starts a multiball like the bridge multiball like it's cool visually seeing these things happen right it's cool like a wireform breaks or the bridge breaks like it's on theme obviously it's just from a playing perspective I'm just kind of like uh okay like maybe if it started a feature like a multiball and it had a ball save okay I'd be I'd be cool with that yeah that would be a little bit more well I we talked earlier about collecting characters so maybe you have a character maybe you get if you beat Magneto he gives you a sentinel you know ball sa like it maybe that would be one of the perks that like there's a ball save that turns on every time a sentinel attacks you know maybe there would be you know they just build it in the code where I want to get I want to play this mode first cuz with this character and then it'll protect me the rest of the game from the hands like yeah's you easily yeah you could pull stuff from what they alluded to in Deadpool Wolverine it's like if you beat Magneto you have his helmet you can do something with a helmet now or something like that yeah I don't know all kind of stuff you do I honestly I mean I just think it's funny because people on stream they ask you know is this going to be a top 10 game is this that is I mean I I think the layout's fantastic I really love the the layout like I'm having a lot of fun the way it shoots but if you're going to buy this game game there's a good chance you're going to have to mess with it or tweak it to get that layout to shoot really well and just just know it's early code it is early code and um I mean if you want me to shill I'll say hey it's a top five game right now right now well yeah you should get out there and buy you asked you've asked some tough critical questions about this game so clearly you must at it and uh you I just I looked at time so we do need to move forward but it's uh no you're fine it's it's just the bottom line is it's pinball right and we talked about last time what could possibly make this game play hard I think personally this is one of those games that if you get an elite player on it an elite player is going to do elite elite things that's just the reality of it but I do believe if you get an average player to below average player on it it's going to be a hard hard sled right it's going to be a little bit difficult but that's okay because if you have the game at home maybe that's a cool thing like I've gotten to where there's some I I would prefer to play some of my classic games over the modern games because I know I'm not going to have a 30 or 45 minute game I'm just gonna have like a five minute game or I can actually play with my family more than a four-player game so like I get it and I think on location I think that this has potential to be a very fun location game because if you set it up right and it does play hard more coin drop and then you get people to have a bigger challenge off things I just you know I'm interested to see what they do with it but yeah I I think with this game and I haven't got a chance to play it yet it's very much setup dependent and I think it's going to be very polarizing moving forward compared to if people like the pro or the premium I I don't think out of all the things I've heard people talk about I haven't heard it be this like split in half I know of people saying I don't think I would like this version I'd like this version I hope that your first experience of playing X-Men is at Expo and I want to be playing against you that first game because I think I have a chance of beating you I mean it might have to be I was trying to save it for content to say hey my first game ever on this but we haven't got the pros yet since they did the Le so maybe I'll just film there maybe Joel will make a guest appearance on the pinball company's YouTube channel it'll be flipping out rep in rep going Head to Head do you guys think it's weird that they went Le first before Pro no I I think that's a fantastic idea you think they should keep doing I yeah because here's why the vast like they've even admitted it's the retail customer is their primary customer right now they buy the most of something and Loca locations are still going to buy their game regardless they're still going to get the pro regardless if you put yourself in position to where you're getting L's out and you're getting them out quickly that's a value prop that's above any other company that's out there like where where are the pulp L's right now yeah right avar are the Avatar CES out right now right it's just and that's how it is it's not to bash those companies but I'm saying that's a value prop right there for stern it's like you'll get your L's out immediately and then we'll go to the others like locations will still buy I also think Stern typically codes premium code first because it's a lot easier to disable features than to add it in so why if they're if they're this early on in the code if all they were doing is building out base Pro code now all of a sudden they're having to build in all the logic of the hands breaking and the the guy coming up and down and building in animations for this and that I think it's a lot easier to build for the pro premium code and then tweak it down but there's a few what I will say you you said uh Pro players are going to do really well on this there have been times on stream when I've been playing this game elite elite far from Elite player well what I'm getting at is there's a big difference between somebody that's you know in the Pro rankings or even a player that's like top 50 top 100 or an elite player like I will be honest I'm not an elite player definitely am not an elite you're talking about the 1% of the 1% no we're talking about the ones that literally levitate above the pen when they play and they transcend reality those pulse podcast for the elite those Elite the zMAX and the eers uh what I was saying though is there was a there's been two or three modes where I've comboed three or four shots together boom Mod's over like you can do it because of the way the layout is and the way it feeds your flippers and if you know what shot to keep going back and forth it that's super satisfying my only complaint is when you beat the mode it just immediate like the mode you beat the mode but it doesn't ever stop the ball there's no there's no scoop there's nothing to stop the ball oh it's just done I would really love the last shot kind of like in turtles or something like that I would love for the last shot of a mode to stop the ball stop the ball in my opinion to to show the animation or show something for me to know I completed the mode because what can happen is boom boom boom you've hit three shots four shots you beat the mode and now I rip another shot and next thing I know I've qualified my next mode and I've immediately started it and it just happen it blurs together so fast that it doesn't it takes away the moment it takes away the satisfaction of completing something it's like I'm out of that battle I'm already into the next one vers did you like the LCD animation I was able to see it I was able to see it because the balls anyways okay so X-Men has a long ways to go people are going to enjoy it at Expo I think I absolutely think people will enjoy playing this game they will enjoy the layout it'll I I and I do have nothing but um positive feelings towards the future of this game I'm excited to see how it develops how it continues to Great play on words there Joel even if you didn't mean it positive feelings on I don't know what I said but sure on the what Joel on the I don't know know what I said future on oh the future yeah yeah the future is Bleak and X-Men but not for the for not for the game the future's nothing but positive okay damn Avatar we got I just looked at time we got so much more to talk about uh we'll talk about Avatar real short and sweet um basic we talk about it last time anyways we did we talked about I had streamed it once I since streamed it with Mark siden I don't know if you had played it yet Tom when we talked about last time that's true we we didn't you have streamed it now yeah um what I what I want to say is we got some negative feedback we got some negative feedback on uh apparently some of the the um the negative questions or the the the hot takes that Travis had you know don't ask you questions that's why asking and what I will say is I and it pains me to say it but I think he he kind of thinks a little he he might be one step ahead of me sometimes okay and I don't like it I don't like it just not with the beard I don't like it because some of the the questions he had as was describing the code as I was explaining how to play the game he was very quick to have these thoughts well what does that mean what is this what is that and I explained it and then here I am a week later and I'm like Travis was right Travis was right the concerns he had or the questions he had are valid and and what I mean by that is um Avatar got to the point and the current code is not finished Avatar had got to the point with me sure there's 22 modes in it but the to start each individual mode is very complex so out of 22 modes I feel like I only saw 10 um and then there's the Saka modes there's I don't know eight of those I think out of those I may have only seen three or four so sure I could have started the game and very very purposefully tried to hit very specific shots to experience a new mode I hadn't experienced before I didn't do that if you're going to buy the game I absolutely think there will be modes that you will find for the first time a year or two years after you've bought the game which is kind of cool it's Little Nugget hidden away that you didn't experience but for somebody that just wants to play the game over and over and over again sure there's a ton there but I felt like I was experiencing a lot of the same thing over and over again um also the way the multiballs are they're not they're the exact same they're not fleshed out they are going to they're going to do that just not where it is so my goal when I was playing the game was to spell Pandora I did it there's no wizard mode it's not there yet should be should be soon so once I checked that box I'm like okay well what why am I playing this game what do I want to do to play this game why are you playing this game why am I yeah so why am I playing this game what I realized was on the jjp media day I actually played a game with Mark seiden and he had a billion point game and he told his co-workers he's like I did it I finally got my billion point game this the this the designer of the game had never gotten to a billion points so that became my goal I want to get a billion points so for the first time this is rare for me I'm playing a game for points the progress I'm not playing it for progression because there the progression isn't built into the game yet I'm playing it for points so what is the best way to get points in Avatar you hit the kid targets it lights the inlane outlane rewards then you hit the shot to do Max toxin Max toxin will max out your next mode at 4X so that means the whole time you play that that mode you'll start at 4X but as you're shooting your shots you're shooting your arrows and that that that XP or that that multiplier slowly goes down unless you have unlimited arrows how do you get unlimited arrows you hit the kid targets again and then you hit the eclipse ramp it'll roll over the unlimited arrows and then you're set you got Max toxin you got unlimited arrows that means for the entirety of that mode you will have 4X if you can then start a mode and then start a multiball you're good that's what you want to do so all of a sudden here how do you do the max toxin thing Max toxin you hit the kids you're going to roll over the left in Lane limited Arrow you hit the kids you roll over the right in lane and you can change that with the flippers um it's almost like we figured that out the last podc as soon as you explained it you had cuz I voiced it you're like wait there's unlimited arrows so why would you not just hit the kids every time it's like so even though there's a ton to do in this game now all of a sudden I'm doing this game in a very specific way where the hangup is is it's that that the perks there for your next mode you can start a mode accidentally you can start a mode if you hit one shot three times you start a soac mode so now all of a sudden I've spent all this time I got everything in in in place and all I'm trying to do is hit the shots to uh to start my multiball and whoops I just hit the or the right orbit three times boom seaco mode whoops I grazed the spider Target lower left three times saac mode so I have 4X with unlimited arrows for that mode but that's not what I like not what I want oning I was I need it for I need it for the multiball I need it for the main mode so I started getting frustrated I started getting frustrated with the game because you do all this work to set it up and then you can't capitalize on it um and unfortunately I never got my billion points never got my billion points while I played it but it was frustrating because it was negative or qu it was questions that Travis had and turns out he was right that's what I was doing that's what I was focusing on I'll play devil's advocate here though were were you at least having fun trying to get there right because people are going to enjoy games vastly different ways right and if you actually look at how pinball rules are a lot of times every single game you can follow the same exact path every single time and be on a loop if you're wanting to maximize points and as a matter of fact like 99% of the games are like that you have very specific strategies and and I know you guys goad yeah it but it's just my concern for for what Avatar is because there's so much there yeah right you're still going to be relegated to only seeing like a certain percentage of it way more than everything else else and that's for like For Better or For Worse like you have to make a conscious decision that you're going to go after the modes Beyond so maybe that's a good thing maybe it's not it's hard for me to say Obviously on location not so good at home maybe that's great if you don't care about points at all you care about just the playing through the movie playing through something just doing that then yeah maybe it works just fine because there's been plenty of games we've done stuff like that that's just what I was going to say in in hindsight I enjoyed playing for Pandora spelling Pandora a whole lot more because it actually forces you play saaka modes play the main story modes play the multiballs get the jackpots it's forcing you to play different areas of the Playfield different aspects of the code I enjoy that way more than trying to build the perfect stack and then maximize or capitalize multiball which I understand tournament play for Pandora though right is that what you just said I used that was what I was doing but it's not in the game yet so I stopped I stopped doing it cuz there was there was no reward at this point then Tom what how did you play it cuz you played it on location you streamed it what were you trying to do on it I was mainly just trying to start multiballs and I was trying to figure out like the super skill shots like what what's the best strategy for that which I found just like plunging around and trying to go into vck was the easiest for me but uh yeah my my main focus was multiball and then the eclipse shot starting Eclipse trying to build up that jackpot and then trying to nail that and getting a bunch of points doing that my main focus was not yeah my main focus was not modes I I had at the time I was like I don't even know how to start a mode like so I was did you not get your like flowchart thing out or whatever yeah not really I mean we had it there but I was just it was more game discover how does this shoot yeah um I think the game shoots really good I mean I was I was surprised when I first saw pictures of it I was kind of like man those shots look really tight up top and but yeah I think that I think it's a good shooting game uh it's just uh did it look pretty in person like light show the way probably probably the as far as a light show goes it's probably the best game I've ever seen with the light show really that's some awesome right there it's very impressive look right behind Tom Tom has nothing but lights behind him so he would know yes it's honestly it's I mean if you're in on an avatar I I'm not I'm not saying it in a negative way I'm just trying to like for what people thought Travis was crapping on the game for it turns out he was right it turns out he was right in a way yeah it is what it is I had people text me be like why did you not talk about X-Men Hardley at all why did you just talk about Avatar the whole time like I it's like anything else you cannot please everybody you can't and the way that I like thinking about pinball is asking questions because these are the same questions I ask you two numnuts off the podcast like if I have the questions you know because that's how you seek information and I was in a unique position so is Tom for Joel actually knew more about a pinball machine than we did so we had to figure it out in real time like how's this going which I loved on the pinball pulse podcast you said yeah we had to talk to Joel about Avatar rules and and and eer goes if you're looking to Joel for rules then you're cooked is what he said I was like I'll take it I'll take it um no I mean I would if if you're in on an avatar I I actually think the game is fantastic it's really fun I'm just very curious to see how they flush out the rules um and I there's there's always balancing needed I just know it's interesting watching you know you tournament Players or you know when I watch certain tournaments streamed there's usually always a meta there's a thing that all four players are trying to accomplish the same path and it's weird to me when a when a pinball machine which is supposed to have so many different paths all of a sudden you just have one that's not particularly fun for me I don't like I don't like having a one- path game and it was just weird in my mind where it's like if you're playing for points in Avatar right now it is kind of a One path game and that's and that's okay because you know I'll I'll play games different for a tournament than I will sometimes when I'm at home trying maybe to get to a wizard mode sure you know I mean CU in a tournament I know like yes I'd love to get to the wizard mode but realistically the game set up so hard that I'm probably not going to get to a wizard mode on this game you know and it was talking it depends on how you like a game and how you view a game you know there's there's fun that can be had in working through everything that's in the rules and just finding one particular path and just trying to stick to that path because that requires skill have to do it skillfully there was a time as a collector like I didn't want a game if it didn't have a wizard mode in it I was like I was just like and then like I started playing games like Dracula and I'm like oh this is fun like I I like how you can stack the multiballs and blow it up but there's no wizard mode in Dracula right and you just touched base on something that I think is really important that a lot of people Overlook here is a great way to one learn your game two have more fun Joel take notes get your notebook out this is great information about to give you let me get my uh here I'm just going to write on my hand all right let me get my John Wick keychain pencil okay I'm ready set your game up on five ball okay okay and here's what you do you're very first two balls you do nothing but chimp flip you don't pay attention to what you're hitting anything you just go all gas no breaks okay so then when you start back on your third ball which is essentially you can just say okay this is my ball one sure you've set up different things in the game you have no idea really what you set up but now you have to observe it and now gives you a different dynamic because then you decide okay what's my goal do I have a point goal that I want to get to oh I have a multiplier that's close to being finished do I want to do that oh I have a multiball right here but I don't want to start that yet I want to bring in a mode so now you have to skillfully not start that multiball but start the mode instead so there's that's a way that you can approach it and I could see Avatar kind of being that way just like you said you know if you hit certain shots you got to do that to start the mode what if you just blindly just silver back flip everywhere and then you got to observe where you at where yeah and that's just another way to get more fun because then you're thinking through your game you're learning the game then you're you're forcing yourself to do something a little bit different each time and I think that's where you can get some fun out of it that's how you'll see uh save the city there Tom next time you play X-Men just just chimp flip through the first two and you'll hit enough of the city things sit the game On th ball and you'll see it lit so no I think you're not going to chim flip that game yeah oh true yeah those first two balls I saw I saw somebody do it on stream I sent you the video Tom I'm not going to say what stream or what video no no no it wasn't you no don't worry it was the most amazing thing ever no we were talking like double flips at the same time they could not miss a shot and they started multiball and everything I was just like this is fantastic I was so Fired Up by it it was awesome okay well we'll get to our last um topic just a round out Avatar I would say if you're in on it I think you're going to enjoy the game and I'm excited for more people to play it at Expo the the layout is really fun to explore at Expo I got to play it yet I want to play I'm Ready the the layout is very fun to explore it's um it's it's a cool game it really is a cool game it's just just like we're saying with X-Men it's I'm very curious to see how the how they finish out the code and then start to balance it but they're doing a whole lot right like Tom said the light show is actually really good jjp usually gets accused of just all the lights all the time but I think it's um they found a good balance of a fun light show but also choreographs what to do well um so you can tell what to do oh yeah based off the light show okay I'm G to hold you to that CU once I play it if I'm confused I'm going to yell out Fu Joel while you're next to me please too yeah um if you uh I made a tutorial like a real quick tutorial video it's on The Flipping Out YouTube channel not watching your tutorial Joel I already asked you about rules do not subject me to this please I think it shows pretty well I think it's a decent job showing what to do in the game so okay maybe I'll watch it before we play okay that leaves us with the uh I mean I'll be standing right there it just ask me and I'll just point you know we did that last year on Labyrinth and I'm convinced you told me the opposite way to go this is the only way you won I did not play you head-to-head in Labyrinth I played Labyrinth set up a really good score you waited in line with Monica and Monica told me afterwards Travis is pissed because his score is lower than yours you had a coach you had a watch watch some sh Travis at barrels of fun yeah um okay final topic as we're running out of time expo Expo so this is your kind of pre- Expo what to do we've kind of already talked about jjp Play Avatar Play Avatar have a good time um talk to Mark seiden will be there I know Keith will be there talk to Eric Eric knows the stuff like talk to the employees if you have questions about Avatar ask Travis ask me ask Tom or JP employee don't ask me that's Eric Eric explains the game really well he explained it I think Tom were you there with me when he walked us through Godfather yes maybe it's Joel somebody was there okay he great ER is awesome but talk to was it was Joel talk to talk to the jjp people um they're awesome if you play it for the first time hit the dive shot it's the it's the scramp it's the up down hit it once it'll pop open hit it again that's how you get to the lower Playfield that's all you need uh so that's that's um that's that's jjp Stern Stern will have X-Men obviously play X-Men there's a chance they might have something else there are rumors that there might be something else I don't know I genuinely don't know I don't know if there's something else play the something else I want play else I don't know so Stern definitely play X-Men play all the other games that you haven't played played Wick play Wick if you haven't played Wick play Jaws play all the good stuff um I know Venom code is more a lot more fleshed out all the fun stuff so check it out that's Stern barrels of fun as far as I know just has Labyrinth I don't think they're revealing anything new but they've continually added more stuff into Labyrinth play the game especially if it has a Topper the call outs are awesome talk to the people at barrels of fun they're all super nice barrels of fun American pinball as far as I know nothing new so it'll be baros barbecue um and hot rod there's it's a whole name play play it um I cuphead is the rumored next game I don't think they're revealing it I think they're saving it just because of everything else that's coming out so play barbecue talk to Steve Bowen there's good people at America you know eat some barbecue while you play it yes yes that would be good like just have smoker there I'd go spooky as far as I know spooky will be there I don't think they're revealing anything new I think the next spooky game is probably late in the year maybe early next year but they should have Texas chaina massacure and uh Looney Tunes we played that at uh tpf I'm excited I'm genuinely those are two of the games I'm excited to play more of because they they've spent I mean there's another whatever six eight months of code in there they've dialed it in they've been manufacturing it for a long time I'm excited to wait in line and play both of those games and review those and compare those do either of you have access to either of those games Looney tun there's a Looney Tunes at Lumberjack Johnny's do you play it often not often no okay okay well maybe I'll be looking to you Tom to to tell me the rules because or bug will be there bug spooky Luke there's there's really good people at spooky including Chris franie I'm assuming Chris franie will probably be in the spooky Booth or around there so say hi to him um what else do we have uh what I'm I'm forgetting oh cgc uh they might I mean this rumored Cactus Canyon remake kit I don't know I don't know if they're at a point of showing that play testing that if so just look if there's long lines in front of CCR it's probably because there's a kit installed there's something new in that game otherwise I mean that game's been out for a while obviously I'm in CCR behind me I love that game if I'm I'm ready for whatever this kit is um but the rumor is it's a new hardware Mech with additional code um I don't know if they're ready to reveal that or not otherwise play Paul fiction whole fiction should be there do you think they'll be in Le there they've got to have at least one Le there uh they've had l in the past with the topper and everything do you think they're making L yet I don't I don't think they're making them yet no I don't think that's I don't think that's a thing um our good October for sorry it is uh our good friends loser kid which I see is Travis's shirt his tan line shirt um they just did an awesome interview with the electric bat or not electric bat TC what is it playground Electronic Playground there we go shout out electric bat arcade why Rachel and kale but Electronic Playground they just announced a new topper that they are making for Attack From Mars so I know they'll be there check out that topper that should be pretty cool I know Joel's forgetting this but we're going to be there with fun houses too oh yeah but no it's just it's just a TPC uh the pin company look for Travis we're supposed to have like I think five fun houses including two ldes on the 2.0 and I think three Classics that are old and Tom loves Tom loves the Le I heard all about it from Lov that art he he absolutely loves it Tom's got the sborn out I will I have not played the the new fun house so I I'm looking forward to playing that um other for for all the listeners out there see we give each other [ __ ] on our own projects like completely but I did not like the LA artwork he he didn't and he didn't like how it played either I think did it play well man I couldn't tell so when you're used to shooting fun house and looking at the artwork for for things and it's completely different it it's it's a little off it throws you off quite a bit Tom is saying buy the classic that's what he's saying right there get a classic um speaking so I will I will be there and then we also have sorry Joel and we also have a seminar at 7:00 on Thursday night and I think I'm supposed to be in there I don't know how much I'm going to actually talk but if you want to see me be like super awkward working a job you'll see that but otherwise like I think we're at we're at Booth 124 I think in the expo hall so come by say hello some pinball tell me how wrong I am about things to my face that's always fun I always enjoy that as well I'll be in the tournament area streaming so and where's Joel gonna be everywhere all when are you and Jared getting there Jared and I are getting there Friday morning we're getting there Friday morning and we uh like early Friday and then we leave late Saturday speaking of which Dwight Saturday night Saturday night Dwight every year does let's make a deal it's actually awesome looking forward to that apparently Stern has they have $4,000 worth of prizes that they're giving away 4,000 including a Topper so um yes so Dwight reached out to me I went last year but butts and seats that's what that's what Dwight's like I need butts and seats it's at 9:30 p.m. right 93030 at night make sure you you set aside time to go to that and it's and it is straight up let's make a deal like the show so I know the whole thing of like you get money and then you can buy things and that's how you get he asks questions and he pulls up different contestants so all the Let's Make a Deal things like hey does anybody have dice I don't know it's like I don't know figure out all that stuff or if you come in a costume like there's a whole thing to get money but it's fun it's genuinely fun I went last year and trivia and it's just even if you're not actually one of the participants just just doing the trivia and watching is really really fun so let's make a deal 9:30 at night go to Dwight's Let's Make A Deal a ton of prizes um there are so many seminars okay yeah I was about to say what what are the main seminars from actual like manufacturers I think every manufacturer has a seminar um but I realized I forgot a lot of Manufacturers there's I can't believe there's there's three tours there's there's the Logan K Jersey Jack and Stern Stern I think American also right yep American days yeah Stern's tour is on Thursday Friday you're pronouncing it wrong tour tour tour T I don't know but go to all the things what I what I was going to say other manufacturers we talked about it earli Alice and Wonderland should be there I think they're going to have three so everybody wait in line and play that turn going to be there Turner pinball apparently ninja Eclipse has been they've started manufacturing those they're going to be there um pinball Brothers will be there there's probably going to be an ABBA um sat Abba Queen Saturday is like Stern night on the schedule oh yeah making of Jaws making of Wick Uncanny X-Men seminar yeah there and let's make a deal you can either sit in seminars you can play Pinball there's so much to do the 7:30 p.m. seminar on Friday my God this is the first time I've seen this have you guys seen this 40 Years of pinball Expo As Told by some of the talented people who make it happen like Pat Lawler Larry dear by yeah like Keith P. Johnson Roger sharp Steve Ritchie Richie yeah there's going to be a lot of people there well I I've definitely forgotten stuff but I feel like that's quite a long list if you're on the fence to go to to to pinball Expo in Chicago what are you doing do you should go try try to do your best to get there um it's going to be a lot of fun I'll be there Thursday or Friday Saturday my brother will as well please come say hi uh we actually have some flipping out stream swag we're we're happy to give out uh I we still have some triple drain magnets we'll give out if you see us um Joel say hi to Tom say hi to Travis If you see Tom in the tournament area and he's talking on stream yeah leave him alone don't talk to him then if he's moving the r don't be like those teenagers way if playing a pinball machine don't talk to him then but if he's doing anything besides that you can talk to if he's if he's eating at a restaurant come up to him you can talk to take the hot dog out of his mouth if if five kids and you want to have a call out on the stream I'm going to tell you to go f off get back that was the best get back I honestly Jared I are no tournament experience never played a pinball machine do not come near the stream well I'm going to give you a warning on that because brother genuinely he's like I want to commentate we could probably make that aing celebrity in pinball probably they'll probably have one of those like cards oh wow like from uh oh the the arcade card or whatever that is probably have one of those one day no Jared's GNA be there I'm excited for I'm genuinely like I'm I'm excited to see everybody and to play all the games but so what what are Joel real quick before we forget everything else like this I'm looking through the thing it's I guess at 5 this is all on Saturday making of Jaws the entire Jaws team um 700 p.m. un Kenny Uncanny X-Men seminar and then I think I thought I saw well wait yeah six o'clock the making of John Wick so ellot and Tim seon are going to be talking that's going to be an interesting one because I know we've heard a lot of people going back and forth about that I'm curious to see like because I feel like they might talk about what's possibly coming in the future oh so I'd be I'm really curious to see about that but yeah it looks like those games are going to be talked about is there an avatar seminar at all anywhere only somebody J Jack pinle at 9:30 on Friday I think there's your seminar right there 9:30 on Friday but there's a lot there is a lot to do but all I can say is to people that have never been before pinball at 5:00 p.m. on Friday talk to other people everybody there loves they're not going to be there unless they love pinball talk to other people talk about your favorite games all the manufacturers if they're there they want to talk to people talk to talk to people talk to other podcasters that you know that you like uh streamers anybody if you just talk to people talk to people that's what's fun honestly some of these shows when he's in the tournament area not a TD um some of these shows honestly I feel like I walk away like you know I'll be on the floor whatever and it's like how many games of pinball did I play today and it would be like three that's just because we just talk just talk to people have a great time it's awesome it's so much fun and I will say and I will say too because we ran into this before also like if you walk by somebody that you know and you've already talked to them whatever it's perfectly fine just to wave or nod or something like that because honestly you're going to see so many people that if you stop and try to talk to everybody you miss the whole show yeah you'll probably never play so yeah except for that one guy that one guy at tpf that had a triple drain shirt I still feel bad about it Tom was there the one guy at tpf that had the triple drain hat and we were talking I know and he's like hey you just to say hi we're like hi and then he walked off I was like what the heck what it was just Joel being Joel he just kept continuing to talk and talk and talk but that's a good thing it's like yeah it's just sometimes it's hard to if you are like going to dinner or you're on a time frame you know and you got to go ibody you know and you won't hurt my feelings if I stop to talk to you and you're like you know what [ __ ] I got bounce I'll see you later it all the time okay well I think that's I think we got to wrap it up um that's it oh Neil McCrae 2 pm oh he's I can't wait to see Neil I love Neil he's doing one too on Thursday right yeah there's gonna there's some good people here there's some really really awesome people in the pinball Hobby and if you're new to this if you like just stumbled into this podcast uh it's an awesome Community everybody that loves pinball just it's such a social uh game to play whether or not your tournament player or whatnot like people want to share their collections people want to play the game with you people want to play against you like just make friends dollar games whatever it is if you need a confidence Builder challenge Joel to a game of pinball you will feel great unless it's on that Labyrinth then don't do it it's a trap if you're wondering to where to find all the stuff go to the go to the website pinball expo.com click on event info you can go down it has everything there but schedule of events is kind of what we're talking about so perfect find it all there um okay final short topic and I wanted to save it for the end because there might be people that want to turn it off I got multiple messages in emails uh about my vasectomy like multiple messages and emails like stay strong brother you know I'm right there with you thanks for joining the crowd you know all this like yes this very this quite a support situation so uh if you want to know feel free to continue to listen if you don't want to know you can turn it off right now you can turn it off right now um I will tell you uh getting a masectomy is one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever done in my life oh I bet um you're wide awake when you do it it's just local anesthesia so you're laying that you just sitting there with your legs just dangling like you're laying you're lay nothing laying there with just a shirt on and uh this guy's coming in and the amount of you know soap and everything to clean the area checking it all out um you know it's just like just having a conversation you know just you do you and then uh you know getting a a shot right in the middle of your sack is something you don't experience every day um and that's something that's just awesome um and then the the way they do it the the numbing is just it spreads through everything and down your legs it's so odd um and then then the guy cuts inside I had one incision right in the middle and then all yeah right it's not it's small it's small but then the guy you know knuckle deep inside of me all of a sudden digging for tubes uh which he's got to pull out so you're feeling this tug this way inside your body in a position you've never felt before this kind of tu in like soreness and then all of a sudden that soreness is relieved because he cut it and it goes back into your body oh and then he has to cariz it so you smell that and the whole time we're just chatting it up we're just he's trying to keep your mind off what he's doing yeah that's we're talking what are you even talking about well he asked he's like hey you you you travel anywhere this you know you take a vacation or you travel anywhere for a summer did you did you say yeah I play did I said well actually I just came back from a trip to Europe for and so we talked about Europe while the guy is all over me like he's just my my manhood is in his hands and he's I'm telling you when when they're digging for tubes it is it's so strange it's so strange but snip snip burn burn and then he burns it in the middle little Stitch and then he cleans you up again little Stitch like there's only one stitch there were two stitches so they cariz it they they they put it back together they cariz it two stitches I'm positive we have lost our four female listeners at this point they're gone uhoh no no uhoh no he didn't there was no like dang he didn't there was no there was nothing it was just yeah there was it was so your your wife must be happy yeah yeah well uh he just it was something man it was something and then um and then that's that 15 minutes and they clean you up and and uh and you put your clothes back on and you waddle out you know you waddle on out and uh and then you ice your nuts for the next three days it's just that's what happens so uh that's a vasectomy um what I will tell you is the external there's very little external pain it's all internal it's like I expected I expected it was going to feel like you got kicked in the nuts for like four days straight it's not that cuz your balls are there it's the tubes it's a deep pain and it's just a soreness and it's just strange so everybody feel free to sign up I'd love a referral code if I had one I'd give it to you but uh it takes you know roughly I don't know a few days and the sorus starts to go away and then you're you're back at it you know not back at it but a week later a week later you're up and about and um and yeah apparently after are you saying you got to wait a week to take it out for a test drive they did say nothing no nothing for a week nothing for a week and I'll tell you I wasn't feeling I don't know if I don't think anybody's going to feel that they want to do anything for a week it's it's it is not a pleasant feeling sure was there swelling was there swelling there was there was a little bit of swelling a little bit of uh at one point I was uh yeah at one point I was like I'm pretty sure half of me is blue down there and it's probably shouldn't be and so I told you can shower after you have to put a bag over it no bag over it yeah yeah give me that Kroger bag let me right no it's uh you can show after a day but I was like Nicole I'm pretty sure uh half my sack is blue and she like you know came up and she's like oh no it's fine she looked at it and it's what do you mean she came up and it's fine she's a nurse practitioner so it's like blue blue extremity means house you just like Dro TR and you're like can you check my balls and I called down I said hey Nicole can you come up here for a second she's walking upstairs what do you need I was like I think half my sack is blue she's like oh okay let me take a look look look look no it's just bruising I think you're fine okay so there you go I'd love it everybody that listens we have listeners across the world across the world yeah uh here's a fun question for you what percentage I don't think I asked you this last year or last week what percentage of men in the US get a vasectomy what percentage probably what percentage of men half after after hearing this definitely one less like I'm not doing thisis what was your what percentage what do you think your the percentage of of men that get of vasectomy in the US like 30 something five five% of men five oh good I'm in the9 one website said six sounds like suckers to me what is cool is insurance covered all of it it was0 I'm after you described it I'm just going to take my chances on the fifth kit was great yep so if that sounds like a good time to you enjoy have a great time uh you know there's your review awful yeah okay well that was that I knew I knew somebody would ask but I appreciate all the people that sent me the messages and the emails and uh yeah so there's your uh I said I'd give you an update there's your update uh we got to make a clip of this no there's plenty there was already two clips that didn't need to happen GL didn't they stream the surgery that's what I want to know why didn't I stre could I was wide awake chatting it up the whole time there would have been some quality flipping out cont I was just laying there I was like yeah then we went to Lis thinking that's what I was laying there just like that is a soreness that I have not I was not expecting like you know would have been awesome if Jared gave commentary during the whole oh Lord yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well I realized maybe I shouldn't have but while the guy you know going at it I asked him you know this is what he does he does seven or eight of these a day I was like have you had vasectomy I apparently I shouldn't have asked him but he goes no I haven't I'm like great okay this guy doesn't even know like he doesn't know what he's doing to me doesn't know what this feels like like you don't have to pull it out that far you know just snip it move on like that's all I'm saying just anyway whatever okay that's that first procure I yeah well well appreciate the support everybody appreciate you too and um yeah I know we already plugged we need to plug it up we need we need to move on I I can't plug after that I'm good like I'll just see everybody at Expo Travis pinball company check out pinball company's YouTube see Travis the pinball booth at Expo Stern Pro Y Stern pro circuit finals too on YouTube and uh twitch yeah yeah that's all I got all right Tom good day y'all Y uh F City's pinball uh I I do want to say poor Travis uh we are uh I'm going to be streaming as we talked about the tournament at pinball Expo don't know how the internet's going to be flip we're going to flip a coin on that it's gonna be so good but I'm going to record everything so if if things aren't good it's it's all gonna be good perfect I have no doubt yeah I can't control internet issues so I'm sorry uh it's out of my hand uh and then I am uh I'm OB see Jo I do this podcast and I do the fliping Out YouTube channel the fliping Out YouTube stream so check that out click live at the top I got a bunch of tutorial videos on there as well so appreciate all that we're trying to get to 5,000 subscribers so please subscribe aser is watching your tutorials I know he is yeah you're cooked yeah okay uh please we all three of us will be at Expo please come say hi please come say hi yes um that's all we got like always Tom you get the last words see you at Expo